Armageddon MUD General Discussion Board

General => General Discussion => Topic started by: nessalin on December 14, 2015, 07:56:02 AM

Title: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: nessalin on December 14, 2015, 07:56:02 AM
http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg916424.html#msg916424 (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg916424.html#msg916424)
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Lizzie on December 14, 2015, 08:07:33 AM
I love this - although I do have one nitpicky request/suggestion:

DRIED food such as jerky - can last for years and never spoils. SMOKED food can last a very long time before spoiling. If it's possible to isolate either/both of those foods and unflag the spoilage toggle, that'd be great.

Also certain [redacted] are made of food - maybe make them inedible so they can't spoil? Some of them are really difficult to acquire.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: nessalin on December 14, 2015, 08:08:59 AM
I love this - although I do have one nitpicky request/suggestion:

DRIED food such as jerky - can last for years and never spoils. SMOKED food can last a very long time before spoiling. If it's possible to isolate either/both of those foods and unflag the spoilage toggle, that'd be great.


Different food types will age at different rates in future releases.  Changes will be incremental.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: In Dreams on December 14, 2015, 08:21:07 AM
Hmm! I think I have mixed feelings on this right off the bat, with how quickly hunger seems to build up at times, but on the other hand it will encourage certain kinds of activity for independent sorts that could be good for the game.

Dried, preserved, and especially hardy food like nuts definitely needs the distinction that it doesn't spoil, though.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Nathvaan on December 14, 2015, 08:48:24 AM
Dried, preserved, and especially hardy food like nuts definitely needs the distinction that it doesn't spoil, though.

As Nessalin stated there will be a way in upcoming changes to set the longevity of different typed of food because of the methods of preservation available. (salting, curing, dried goods, etc)

But it also must be remembered there aren't modern chemical preservatives, refrigerators or freezers so it is unlikely that any food would last forever!
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Bast on December 14, 2015, 09:03:43 AM
I think its good stuff but.....If I am hosting a big party and find PC's hunters to get me meat to use at said party..and they get it back to me 4-5 days before the party then I am not going to have food for my event because its now all rotten. The air tight storage containers need to be able to extend this. It would be hella impossible and very risky to hire pcs to gather you food and trust they will be able to log in the day of your event and get you everything you need.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: KankWhisperer on December 14, 2015, 09:57:04 AM
I think its good stuff but.....If I am hosting a big party and find PC's hunters to get me meat to use at said party..and they get it back to me 4-5 days before the party then I am not going to have food for my event because its now all rotten. The air tight storage containers need to be able to extend this. It would be hella impossible and very risky to hire pcs to gather you food and trust they will be able to log in the day of your event and get you everything you need.
You have three days before the food spoils. Then cook it and you have another three days on top of that?

Oops it's 36 hours. So about 3 days total. Yeah a bit tight.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Desertman on December 14, 2015, 09:59:15 AM
Love this.

Looking forward to SALT becoming as valuable on the PC level as it should be for preservation purposes.

Did you know the Roman Legions used to actually get paid in salt at one time because it was that valuable?

I hope that when we start adding "Preservation Extensions" to this food we update the preserved food crafting recipes to make them realistic.

I see this adding a whole new and much needed dynamic to the economy surrounding survival and hunters specifically in game.

Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Desertman on December 14, 2015, 10:02:18 AM
Realize I read the timing info wrong. - I agree with KW.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: whitt on December 14, 2015, 10:15:46 AM
You have three days before the food spoils. Then cook it and you have another three days on top of that?

Don't forget it's 3RL days of logged in time.  So in reality even for the true Arm addict it's more like 6RL days of usable "raw ingredient" time.  Followed by the same amount of time on the prepared item.  So likely 1.5 to 2 RL weeks of usable food survival.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Patuk on December 14, 2015, 10:23:28 AM
Oh my, this is impressive
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: nauta on December 14, 2015, 10:35:53 AM
Brilliant change!  The magick of forever food has always gotten under my skin.  Thanks!

That said, I think Bast brings up a good point about parties (when entertaining, you don't want to stop RP to scrounge up the flavor props) and there might be other cases: some rare food items, like Lizzie suggests, and maybe food items that we might want to keep around just so we have the recipes for posterity -- e.g., rare Kadian cakes.

Two solutions (maybe this is in the works):

1. The META-FREEZER: make an item like the food bin which is a pure OOC convenience for certain clans (and tribes) to store 'samples' of rare food items, and maybe as a temporary spot for the party food.

2. The FLAVOR FOOD FLAG: flag some items as flavor (pun intended) -- mere roleplay props with little to no actual coded benefit from eating.

Is this in-game now? 

em races back to grab recipes
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Ath on December 14, 2015, 10:38:30 AM
Food Preservation is already on the table, so don't worry on that one, it will come.  We've been doing a LOT of talking behind the scenes on this on ways we can do many things to assist players.  I know for one thing is we don't want to be a pain in the ass for players, but realistic.  This is why for casual players, just keep the food you're using on you.  IMO this makes the hunter career path a bit more valuable, as it should be.  Cooking could become a very valuable skill here soon with food preservation methods.

As for those in clans that have big events coming on where you had to have hunters get things, I can't say for all clans, but I know I will assist my players in what way we can to make this more frustration free.  I mean for Kadius, I load the food up as close to the event as a I can as it is.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Lizzie on December 14, 2015, 10:47:45 AM
Food Preservation is already on the table, so don't worry on that one, it will come.  We've been doing a LOT of talking behind the scenes on this on ways we can do many things to assist players.  I know for one thing is we don't want to be a pain in the ass for players, but realistic.  This is why for casual players, just keep the food you're using on you.  IMO this makes the hunter career path a bit more valuable, as it should be.  Cooking could become a very valuable skill here soon with food preservation methods.

As for those in clans that have big events coming on where you had to have hunters get things, I can't say for all clans, but I know I will assist my players in what way we can to make this more frustration free.  I mean for Kadius, I load the food up as close to the event as a I can as it is.

I don't know if this is already coded, or used to be coded (similar used to be coded with a certain sample box from Kurac):

But on staff-side, if there's a party and food has been acquired by PCs - they could load it into a specially-coded box - and the box be held by an NPC merchant that exists just for the purpose. The merchant can be renamed "special party storage dood" so everyone knows that's where the stuff goes. That way, the stuff in that bin won't degrade, and the staff can release it within 24 hours of the party - and dump it if it doesn't get used without having to junk each individual thing. You just junk the bin and everything inside it disappears.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Desertman on December 14, 2015, 10:59:43 AM
Now let's just do away with House NPC Cooks for lower-ranked commoner employees and suddenly House hunters are actually needed on a regular basis and what they do actually matters more often.

Shit, I might even play a House hunter if this were the case.

Also House PC cooks would become a much more needed and enjoyable thing to play. Not my cup of tea exactly, but I can see a lot of other people loving it.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Delirium on December 14, 2015, 11:06:41 AM
Love it.

Let's make sure to update the skinning results from killing animals with more meat/bones as would be realistic, though. And add meat to those who don't give any.

There are a lot of animals out there that didn't get updated when the rest did, to provide more meat/bone/guts, etc.

Jakhal, tregil, goudra, tandu, etc, etc, etc.

You should be able to kill one animal and have enough to eat off of for the next couple days, rather than having to go on a mass slaughter just to make sure you have meat.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Nathvaan on December 14, 2015, 11:09:31 AM
Love it.
Let's make sure to update the skinning results from killing animals with more meat/bones as would be realistic, though. And add meat to those who don't give any.

Yup, things like this have already been in discussion. I don't think the details are 100% hashed out yet but things like this are on the radar for sure. =)
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Desertman on December 14, 2015, 11:09:39 AM
Love it.

Let's make sure to update the skinning results from killing animals with more meat/bones as would be realistic, though. And add meat to those who don't give any.

There are a lot of animals out there that didn't get updated when the rest did, to provide more meat/bone/guts, etc.

Jakhal, tregil, goudra, tandu, etc, etc, etc.

You should be able to kill one animal and have enough to eat off of for the next couple days, rather than having to go on a mass slaughter just to make sure you have meat.

I have noticed this as well.

Saltworms give you no meat at all. Just an example. What an awkward situation that was the first time I found this out...especially since there are saltworm meat items you can buy in game already.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: rodic on December 14, 2015, 11:10:23 AM
This is wonderful actually.

I'm assuming it also rots with in a Merchants inventory?  No more after reboot mad dash to the Grocer?
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Desertman on December 14, 2015, 11:10:57 AM
This is wonderful actually.

I'm assuming it also rots with in a Merchants inventory?  No more after reboot mad dash to the Grocer?

I believe it says it doesn't rot in a Merchant's inventory actually.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: rodic on December 14, 2015, 11:14:08 AM
Just saw it, must of glossed over it.  That sucks actually but I guess helpful to facilitate PC to PC trade.

That Grocer is usually up to his neck in Scrab steaks and Chalton meat, was hoping that no longer be the case. 
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Lizzie on December 14, 2015, 11:18:16 AM
Just saw it, must of glossed over it.  That sucks actually but I guess helpful to facilitate PC to PC trade.

That Grocer is usually up to his neck in Scrab steaks and Chalton meat, was hoping that no longer be the case. 

Actually, this might result in a much-needed improvement: PCs actually BUYING food from the grocer instead of only selling it. And of course the resulting reduction in cost to the NPC and sale price to the PC (since now that the NPC is actually selling shit he can afford to lower the prices and reject stupid demands for high costs on cheap cuts).
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Large Hero on December 14, 2015, 11:32:45 AM
A wonderful step in the direction of a more realistic economy, which the game sorely needs. An incredibly good change.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: manipura on December 14, 2015, 12:07:53 PM
You have three days before the food spoils. Then cook it and you have another three days on top of that?

Don't forget it's 3RL days of logged in time.  So in reality even for the true Arm addict it's more like 6RL days of usable "raw ingredient" time.  Followed by the same amount of time on the prepared item.  So likely 1.5 to 2 RL weeks of usable food survival.

While it's 3 days of RL time, I assume that's only if it's in your inventory.  So for all these party-planning-people with food concerns, I think that their food concerns are still valid because they'd have far too much of it to pile into their character's inventory when logging out.

All in all, I think it's a good thing.  Only question about it would be like Lizzie already touched on.  Not all foods are going to spoil at the same rate, some foods will take a really, really, -really- long time to spoil and others likely not at all. 

Once all the changes are in, is it going to be food either spoils or doesn't?  Or will there be in between levels of spoilage depending on the food? 
I can see raw meat spoiling quickly, and some fruits as well.  But something like flour, while eventually spoiling, will take a long time to do so. 

I'm thinking that the additional changes that are upcoming will consider non-preserved-but-essentially-non-perishables VS very-slow-to-spoil-perishables VS preserved-and-in-essence-now-unperishables.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: wizturbo on December 14, 2015, 12:10:43 PM
Love it.

As defacto "Magick is awesome" party leader I would like to suggest some new spells surrounding food preservation (or rotting for that matter) be created too.  It would be fairly awesome if certain magickers could curse people/rooms to make food items on them rot.





Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Harmless on December 14, 2015, 12:25:52 PM
This is great. I don't mind that it is a preliminary release with simplistic code to start. 36 hours of playtime is a long time especially for me so I don't mind that. I do look forward to this getting refined but for game balance this is a great addition!
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: nauta on December 14, 2015, 12:52:46 PM
As prime minister of the help files party, aka the Biowizard Halflings Party -- we aren't a single issue party, and in fact endorse most of the platform being pushed by Wizturbo's Magickal Faction -- I want to make two little points when you come around to updating HELP FOOD in light of these changes:

1. "Even though a food item might be lightly-spoiled or spoiled, you can still eat it without any negative (coded) effects."  (I can already imagine my newbie self thinking "crap, it's spoiled", and not eating it.)

2. Perhaps consider changing the language from "lightly-spoiled" to "aged" (or something) and "spoiled" to "nearly-spoiled".  (My hunch is newbies will see the word 'spoiled' and avoid the food.)

3. Unrelated to the change (but related to confusions with food for newbies): You might add the following: "Yes, you can eat raw meat, and no it won't have negative coded consequences.  However, please RP responsibly."

4. Bring back halflings.

However, I have a feeling with the 'purely cosmetic at this time' clause that you'all are planning on addressing all three down the road by making there be negative coded consequences for eating spoiled and -- maybe -- raw meats (which would be incredibly cool).  (Although in the latter case, many cultures eat raw meat.)
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: RogueGunslinger on December 14, 2015, 12:59:39 PM
I have mixed feelings, mostly because of how food already works in-game.

 Either you are well off, and don't worry about food. Or you're  a noob struggling to get by and have a hard time finding it because you don't know how the game's economy works. There's very little in-between, and the people who were already worrying about food, are now going to get sacked twice as hard. The people who never worried about it will continue not to worry about it.

So, yeah. Mixed feelings.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Narf on December 14, 2015, 01:07:32 PM
I have mixed feelings, mostly because of how food already works in-game.

 Either you are well off, and don't worry about food. Or you're  a noob struggling to get by and have a hard time finding it because you don't know how the game's economy works. There's very little in-between, and the people who were already worrying about food, are now going to get sacked twice as hard. The people who never worried about it will continue not to worry about it.

So, yeah. Mixed feelings.

I feel like if you can play for a day and a half straight without needing to eat the last of your food you're probably pretty firmly in that first category.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: solera on December 14, 2015, 01:08:04 PM
But mah kank steak!
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Ath on December 14, 2015, 01:18:17 PM
From my understanding, food that is in a container in a room and food that is just in a room will degrade in 3 RL days if just left in the room.  Food that is on a PC in a container or inventory will degrade in 3 RL days per when the PC is logged in, when logged out the timer stops.  Food that is in an NPC inventory will not age at all.  I hope this clears things up for you all.

Preservation Methods and Preservation Containers I think are going to be one of the first things you guys will see.  For those of you that are in clans and need to store food for an IC event, I suggest getting with your clan staff, they can make a decision on that.  If you're just looking to store it for no real reason, that's all on you.

Nothing has changed, yet, on how to gather food.  A newb can still gather food however they would normally, and if they keep it in their inventory, it will last for them.  Gameplay wise, a newb isn't going to have an apartment and storing large quantities of food, so this really shouldn't affect them.

The major change I see for this is long term storage of large amounts of food.  Personally, I'm glad to see this come as it leads to a bit more realism and will have an affect on the gameplay of hunting and cooking, along with an affect on the economy.  I see a lot of people keeping more food on their person.  I'm not sure how I like that, but keeping a ton of food on yourself will just make it so you can't carry more, so that may just balance itself out.  Now I love the prospective of the food seller/cook PC, this is much more viable now.

I love that you guys are giving constructive feedback on this, I love the positive and the negative.  Thank you for this, I can promise you it is being read.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: MeTekillot on December 14, 2015, 01:26:51 PM
Make carrying old food around make you smell bad like carrying poop around does.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: lostinspace on December 14, 2015, 01:29:22 PM
Does this affect the food in a rations pack before you unwrap it?
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: nessalin on December 14, 2015, 01:31:33 PM
From my understanding, food that is in a container in a room and food that is just in a room will degrade in 3 RL days if just left in the room.  Food that is on a PC in a container or inventory will degrade in 3 RL days per when the PC is logged in, when logged out the timer stops.  Food that is in an NPC inventory will not age at all.  I hope this clears things up for you all.

Food ages in
--Everything that is not a merchant, that is in the game (wether that is a player, container, room, npc or some combination of the above)
Food does not age in
--Merchants
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: MeTekillot on December 14, 2015, 01:33:02 PM
What if I'm a guild_merchant?
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: GhostTok on December 14, 2015, 01:34:17 PM
Does this affect the food in a rations pack before you unwrap it?
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: whitt on December 14, 2015, 01:34:35 PM
Does this affect the food in a rations pack before you unwrap it?

Gonna bet no, because the ration pack is not a food object.  It turns into food objects once it's opened.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: BadSkeelz on December 14, 2015, 01:35:25 PM
Love it.

As defacto "Magick is awesome" party leader I would like to suggest some new spells surrounding food preservation (or rotting for that matter) be created too.  It would be fairly awesome if certain magickers could curse people/rooms to make food items on them rot.

If magickers get a means of preserving food before mundanes I will fucking eat the next Magicker PC I meet.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: nauta on December 14, 2015, 01:38:37 PM
Love it.

As defacto "Magick is awesome" party leader I would like to suggest some new spells surrounding food preservation (or rotting for that matter) be created too.  It would be fairly awesome if certain magickers could curse people/rooms to make food items on them rot.

If magickers get a means of preserving food before mundanes I will fucking eat the next Magicker PC I meet.

See.  This is common ground that the three parties (the Biowizard Halflings Party, Wizturbo's Magickal Faction, and Badskeelz Anti-Magickal Party) might find: give magickers the ability to preserve food before mundanes, but allow Badskeelz to play a halfling that only eats magickers.  Diplomacy win.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: nessalin on December 14, 2015, 01:39:59 PM
Does this affect the food in a rations pack before you unwrap it?

If 'eat' command works on the item, it is food, and will age.

For the rations that the 'eat' command does not work on, those are not food, and will not age.

The items you get out of them will start aging when they are taken out.

Thanks for pointing that out.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: nessalin on December 14, 2015, 01:40:46 PM
What if I'm a guild_merchant?

In this case, merchants are defined as NPCs that respond to the list/offer/buy/sell commands.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Ender on December 14, 2015, 01:41:16 PM
What if I'm a guild_merchant?

Give all your food to merchant NPCs for storage and with your higher starting money you can pay pickpockets to steal it back when you need it.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: BadSkeelz on December 14, 2015, 01:42:17 PM
Does this affect the food in a rations pack before you unwrap it?

If 'eat' command works on the item, it is food, and will age.

For the rations that the 'eat' command does not work on, those are not food, and will not age.

The items you get out of them will start aging when they are taken out.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Would it be possible to create a crafting recipe for creating such a ration item that isn't technically food? If you have 4 pieces of jerky and some cloth, you could craft them into a rations pack that would not age?

Just one idea for food preservation.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: palomar on December 14, 2015, 01:50:18 PM
New character concept idea... Preserver. Err, wait.

I like this change.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: RogueGunslinger on December 14, 2015, 01:59:13 PM
I have mixed feelings, mostly because of how food already works in-game.

 Either you are well off, and don't worry about food. Or you're  a noob struggling to get by and have a hard time finding it because you don't know how the game's economy works. There's very little in-between, and the people who were already worrying about food, are now going to get sacked twice as hard. The people who never worried about it will continue not to worry about it.

So, yeah. Mixed feelings.

I feel like if you can play for a day and a half straight without needing to eat the last of your food you're probably pretty firmly in that first category.

I need coffee or something because I think I'm missing your point.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Armaddict on December 14, 2015, 02:06:41 PM
Eh.

Hunger code will need adjusting, unless this is an effort to do that whole thing that everyone is ranting about in the retention thread that is 'forcing people to do things at certain times'.

Being able to stockpile some food after each hunting trip was what made you able to use your time as you wished.  If it now spoils unless you lug it around everywhere (in which case you'll still lose it), this is a step in the 'add to chores' category.  I think this is a rather large step towards 'high maintenance', rather than the low maintenance game that has been widely discussed as what people were moving towards.

Edited to add:  It isn't that the realism is bad.  However, pre-emptively putting this part in without all the changes necessary to make playability and and the fully fleshed concept was a little irresponsible, I think.  At the very least, the preserving recipes needed to be marked/flagged...as long as that happens quickly, I can't complain, but if it turns into one of those backburner things that we have to wait a year for, that's going to be a pain-in-the-ass year.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Saellyn on December 14, 2015, 02:13:41 PM
If you eat until full it literally takes in game days before you get hungry. I don't really see the problem myself, it adds a sense of realism to the game. My guess is this has something to do with people constantly stockpiling giant masses of food and just having it around. This is a good change. I like this.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Renenutet on December 14, 2015, 02:14:54 PM
I think its good stuff but.....If I am hosting a big party and find PC's hunters to get me meat to use at said party..and they get it back to me 4-5 days before the party then I am not going to have food for my event because its now all rotten. The air tight storage containers need to be able to extend this. It would be hella impossible and very risky to hire pcs to gather you food and trust they will be able to log in the day of your event and get you everything you need.

In that situation that situation reach out of to your clan staff.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: nauta on December 14, 2015, 02:15:56 PM
But mah kank steak!

Hehe, I know you are joking and while I love the change since it'll definitely increase interaction in my view...

but I am a little worried about losing a lot of 'rare' or mastercrafted foods from the game's lore -- of course we can't ever make kank meat or kank honey candies any more, but there are a lot of candies and rare treats that are stashed away in clan compounds (and tribal camps) and used as samples (to determine the recipe without bothering staff about it -- plus if you don't know it exists since it decayed, you won't know to ask staff about the recipe).

Might not be that big of deal on the whole (considering how awesome the change is), but I'll be grabbing every exotic food item I can over the next three days and jotting down its recipe in my notes file.   :D

All the more reason for that Fale or Borsail noble or Kadian merchant to get their Recipes of Zalanthas book finished!

Perhaps we could have an initial moratorium (or set expiration to after the new year) while we work with clan staff to preserve some of those more rare delicacies?  (I'm thinking of Kadian candies and some of the tribals foodstuffs.)

Also, if it's everything that succumbs to the 'eat' command, does that mean poop objects also decay?  (Once I was spam eating balls and ending up eating some poop.  It turns out you don't insta-die!)
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Armaddict on December 14, 2015, 02:21:19 PM
If you eat until full it literally takes in game days before you get hungry. I don't really see the problem myself, it adds a sense of realism to the game. My guess is this has something to do with people constantly stockpiling giant masses of food and just having it around. This is a good change. I like this.

Again.  It's a good thing.  It's a bad thing that it's going in while acknowledged as incomplete.  If the rest phases in quickly, it's no big deal and increases the value of 'tasty' versus 'cured', which in turn increases the value of seasonings.  However, in an unfinished state, it is purely chore and inconvenience.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: BadSkeelz on December 14, 2015, 02:25:05 PM
Again.  It's a good thing.  It's a bad thing that it's going in while acknowledged as incomplete.  If the rest phases in quickly, it's no big deal and increases the value of 'tasty' versus 'cured', which in turn increases the value of seasonings.  However, in an unfinished state, it is purely chore and inconvenience.


I prefer to look at it as a chance for clanned characters to engage in a little corruption and sell their ready-made free foods on the side.


Code: [Select]
You hear a male voice shout from the north, in sirihish,
   "WTS 10 [gristly sausage] for 150 sid and/or BJ"
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Hicksville Hoochie on December 14, 2015, 02:28:50 PM
Does this affect the food in a rations pack before you unwrap it?

If 'eat' command works on the item, it is food, and will age.

Eat your baby items before they go bad, folks! Child life expectancy just went down to 36 hours!  :D

Love this change. Love anything that can help foster trade between PCs! I figure this might lead to an awesome shift in the cooking skill to aid in preservation of some food items. (Which means I'm gonna need a mage with a preservation spell, who is a master cook, and can /masterdance in front of Badskeelz.  :-*  )

Oops, forgot my actual question! Edit!

Will this potentially lead to any sort of change in tavern food prices, as eating when out on the town will be a bit more valid for some characters now? (And is still kind of crazy expensive)
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Desertman on December 14, 2015, 02:33:51 PM
This change is so awesome it literally makes my dick hard.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: wizturbo on December 14, 2015, 02:36:24 PM
This change is so awesome it literally makes my dick hard.

As defacto leader of the "Magick is Awesome" party, I would like spells added to be able to curse people to prevent this from happening, and the reverse.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: nessalin on December 14, 2015, 02:37:31 PM
Will this potentially lead to any sort of change in tavern food prices, as eating when out on the town will be a bit more valid for some characters now? (And is still kind of crazy expensive)

Ideally, tavern food would be cheaper, but also short lived.  The kind of food you would buy, consume, move on.  Not stick in a bag for later.

Rather like McDonald's.  While some people DO put big macs in a bag to be eaten hours, if not days, later - it's not safe.

Compared to buying granola bars at 7-11, which cost more per calorie, have more mass per calorie, etc...their shelf life is such that you could stock up on them.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: manipura on December 14, 2015, 03:13:19 PM
If I'm a Zalanthan hunter and my cooking is so shitty that I burn more than I cook, I might end up in a position where I've saved up my last fifty coins to buy a steak from a tavern.
If I'm full and there's still one bite of my fifty sid steak left, I'm -absolutely- wrapping up that last bite and sticking it in a bag for later.

I am curious why this code is going in when it's not quite finished? 
For twenty years food in Arm hasn't spoiled, is there a reason that the spoilage code went in this week as opposed to in a couple weeks when the details are all worked out regarding different spoilage times for different types of food?

All I can think of is that having the code go live as it is right now is a half-decent way to 'clean up' a lot of the stockpiles of unused food sitting around the world.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: rodic on December 14, 2015, 03:14:37 PM
For those of you worried about Newbies and eating...

I'm far from an accomplish player but the nature of food that lasted forever would literally force me to junk or buy an actual apartment to keep hordes of vulture meat.  First thing as a newbie I learned was how to feed myself and it wasn't a particular challenge or maintenance at all.  

I wasn't even actively hunting vultures, don't even get me started on large bags full of scrab heads.

This is a perfect chance to roll up a street hawker selling food on the cheap.  I hope some one runs with it.  Nothing makes my indie hunter heart flutter like an Indie PC merchant to sell my stuff too.  One of the challenges of indie hunting is actually making a living off your hunting.  Shops fill up quick, npcs run out of coin, you're always battling time to sell your stuff.  Finding an newish indie merchant with the coin to buy, and the need of lower quality hides/chitin is a wonderful thing.  Now we can add food to that list, if enough of us also actively buy food from said PC merchants... Well sounds fun.  Maybe the a rise of a new Merchant House?

It be nice to for once, make an actual living out of hunting as oppose to supplementing my income via grebbing/mining.  Which always seemed silly that salting and mining was way more viable then... bringing in food.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: nessalin on December 14, 2015, 03:27:03 PM
If I'm a Zalanthan hunter and my cooking is so shitty that I burn more than I cook, I might end up in a position where I've saved up my last fifty coins to buy a steak from a tavern.
If I'm full and there's still one bite of my fifty sid steak left, I'm -absolutely- wrapping up that last bite and sticking it in a bag for later.

And you're welcome to, but it won't last forever and you'd have been better off spending your coins on something that would last longer, but provide less sustenance for it's cost and weight.

I am curious why this code is going in when it's not quite finished? 
For twenty years food in Arm hasn't spoiled, is there a reason that the spoilage code went in this week as opposed to in a couple weeks when the details are all worked out regarding different spoilage times for different types of food?

The idea that any code is 'finished' is at odds with how things actually work.  Combat code isn't 'finished'.  Magick code isn't 'finished'.  In all areas of the game there are values we do not use, code we haven't completed.  Quarantined off from players, commented out, or otherwise rendered unusable.

There has been code, and values for the code to use on food items, for code aging laying around for ... well over a decade.  We've taken a run at this before with dmpls, javascripts, special procs, and even staff manually going around removing food, sometimes replacing it with rotted items.

Why now? Why not?

All I can think of is that having the code go live as it is right now is a half-decent way to 'clean up' a lot of the stockpiles of unused food sitting around the world.

That's absolutely one of the many reasons, yes.  Increasing interaction between players. Give value to non-magick/psi/combat skills so the game isn't entirely about how fast you can kill the other guy.  That clans aren't only about how good their warriors are.  Creating class distinction with what kind of food you eat.  Giving players another value to noodle over on what to buy, and when.  The list goes on.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: whitt on December 14, 2015, 03:31:31 PM
This change is so awesome it literally makes my dick hard.

If this lasts for more than five hours, you should see a doctor...  Or a vivaduan.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Majikal on December 14, 2015, 03:32:46 PM
This change is so awesome it literally makes my dick hard.
Said it best.

No more bins of 700 food products, some people might actually have to hunt down their first meal for the purpose of not starving. I dig it. I've seen a few people mastercraft some cool meals for travelers, dried biscuit, jerkies etc, which eventually are going to be doubly awesome. I'm so stoked about this.

I'm all for limiting clan cooks or putting in some kind of system where they don't just shit out endless food next. Kadian hunters would finally be able to stop just hunting silk lizards.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Vwest on December 14, 2015, 03:52:09 PM
Is there any chance we can get some adjustment on cooking failure rate?

I tend to keep a lot of food around my characters places because even with upper advanced cooking and the proper cooking tools, a grill, etc, I still have about a 50-70% failure rate on almost all cooking crafts. If food isn't going to keep and we're prone to rampant failures, I see this becoming a major chore, rather than an interesting feature.

Are we going to see NPC food machines for non-noble clan members removed? Because without a vastly increased market to unload meat on, we're going to see a lot more people junking food or food being left to rot in huge piles all over the place, much like we did around in the north back when Tuluk was still open. The unreasonable amount of meat left to waste there was a much more glaring immersion breaker than food lasting a long time, considering food and water are thematically supposed to be rare and valuable.

I can pretty much assure you no one is going to buy meat from NPCs because food prices in the south are universally very, very high (though thematically accurate), far beyond the relatively meager spending power of most city-locked characters. How often do you really see someone buying a steak in the Gaj, or a plate of food at Reds?

It seems like, at least in it's current iteration, this is going to inflict tedium on independents without opening any new avenues for sales, since the would-be primary buyers (merchant / noble clans) all have unlimited free food from NPCs.

The chalton population is really going to take this change on the chin.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: wizturbo on December 14, 2015, 03:54:05 PM
That's absolutely one of the many reasons, yes.  Increasing interaction between players. Give value to non-magick/psi/combat skills so the game isn't entirely about how fast you can kill the other guy.  That clans aren't only about how good their warriors are.  Creating class distinction with what kind of food you eat.  Giving players another value to noodle over on what to buy, and when.  The list goes on.

Great reasons to implement it now.  I don't care if everything you have in your ultimate vision isn't ready yet, this incremental change is a big win and it will only get better as you refine things further.

Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: rodic on December 14, 2015, 03:57:57 PM


The chalton population is really going to take this change on the chin.

Six legged fucks deserve it.

As I stated, this change only needs a couple of indies run wild with it.  Selling cheap food below the value of the Grocer other merchants would be great.  If some newbie is struggling to get food... oh man lines of credit for food?  Dude... next character might be a merchant... cause why not?
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Drayab on December 14, 2015, 04:06:53 PM
I love it.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Tisiphone on December 14, 2015, 04:14:52 PM
A few suggestions:

Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Asanadas on December 14, 2015, 04:23:54 PM
I got caught up in the same thoughts when the bank changes were first rolled out: "Why release this when it's unfinishedtm?"

And then the second wave of the bank changes came along, which fixed the issues raised by the implementation. Sometimes you need to see a change in action before it can be fixed properly.

I think this is a cool idea, and it'll be easy enough to weather food evaporating until the further refinement of the system comes along soon.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Brytta Léofa on December 14, 2015, 04:28:25 PM
This is a great move.

I think food in rooms should age at a different rate than food on your person.  36 hours played is 20+ play sessions for me; contrariwise, I often don't log in twice in a 36-hour period.  Mine is an extreme example, but I think they should be balanced to feel closer to the same.  Something like 1.5 hours played : 5 RL days on the clock gut-checks about right for me.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Majikal on December 14, 2015, 04:43:54 PM
All these changes that have gone towards making Zalanthas feel like a living breathing thing. I feel like the game has had more awesome changes in the last two years than the 12 prior. You guys are kickin ass up there.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: lostinspace on December 14, 2015, 04:46:42 PM
Does this get reset by cooking? If I have a piece of meat and sit on it for 2.5 days then cook it into a delicious steak is the shelf life of that steak .5 days or 3 days?

Also now I really want to make a character that can master-craft Pemmican.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: nessalin on December 14, 2015, 04:50:44 PM
Does this get reset by cooking? If I have a piece of meat and sit on it for 2.5 days then cook it into a delicious steak is the shelf life of that steak .5 days or 3 days?

Yes, as speculated previously, crafting creates an entirely new item, so crafting 'a spoiled hunk of pony-meat' into 'a cooked pony-burger' will reset the timer on it 192 games hours / 36 RL hours.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Armaddict on December 14, 2015, 04:53:45 PM
Quote
And then the second wave of the bank changes came along, which fixed the issues raised by the implementation. Sometimes you need to see a change in action before it can be fixed properly.

Assuming it's short term adjustments, then I agree. If adding these flags to cured/smoked recipes and other methods is an easy week of coding, then I agree.  But the way this is phrased thusfar makes it sound like this will be its state for awhile while the rest of the coding gets done (or is delayed).

I do -not- want to sound like I'm unhappy with the finished product, I think it's a very huge step.  I only think that the release of the step wasn't ready yet, is all, and am not sure why it was pushed out when acknowledged to be in that unfinished state.  The comparison of it to combat code and magick code, things that have required constant balance and tweaking and readjustments based on discussion and changes and complaints of how hard it is to change, is not exactly encouraging, so I'm hoping that those were just the very hyperbolic parallels that they seemed to be.  This seems like a fairly straightforward coding project that, when finished, will not require much looking back on.

I wholeheartedly endorse the idea.  Just not incompletes.  It's about the procedural side of it, not the idea itself.

To join on the positivity, though, since I have not voiced it, I've had hunters use the cured food for a long time, as 'riding food', stashed away until it was time to ride.  I'm anticipating that becoming a common practice and mark of the survivalist, which should be -sweet-.  Likewise, noble-food, and merchant-food...I hope to see different societal subtleties with this naturally coming around.  Plus...you know... this was listed as a major thing in the economy thread from awhile back, and I appreciate it being worked on.  There's been a lot of changes that seem to have come off of feedback, of late.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: LauraMars on December 14, 2015, 04:57:12 PM
Even incomplete, this change is one of the best changes to the game in a long time. I'd be fine with it if you stopped right here. (but don't stop right here if you've got more features to roll out plz seriously though ilu this so cool)
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: James de Monet on December 14, 2015, 04:57:32 PM
(http://media.liveauctiongroup.net/i/5736/8632978_2.jpg?v=8CE71410914F540)

Ooh, you made broils spoil, Ness!

Broils spoil? You made every mess a guess, Ness!



So excite!
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: manipura on December 14, 2015, 05:03:22 PM
If I'm a Zalanthan hunter and my cooking is so shitty that I burn more than I cook, I might end up in a position where I've saved up my last fifty coins to buy a steak from a tavern.
If I'm full and there's still one bite of my fifty sid steak left, I'm -absolutely- wrapping up that last bite and sticking it in a bag for later.

And you're welcome to, but it won't last forever and you'd have been better off spending your coins on something that would last longer, but provide less sustenance for it's cost and weight.

You know, I was really just making a bit of a tongue-in-cheek comment regarding the scarcity of good food for a lot of Zalanthans.  
I wasn't implying my last nibble of steak should last forever and I wasn't implying that it was the best use of coins.  I was responding to...


Ideally, tavern food would be cheaper, but also short lived.  The kind of food you would buy, consume, move on.  Not stick in a bag for later.


...which implies that taking your leftovers with you is the wrong way to go about things.


As for all the rest, I was just curious.  Not everyone is a coder of some kind who has any idea at all how it works.
Some of us actually don't know anything about coding stuff and don't know if there would be specific, logical reasons to put changes like this out in phases as opposed to all at once.  
Which is why I went ahead and asked.

Edit: Hopefully this change will be incentive for those people who habitually order food from PCs and then brush them off for game weeks on end to actually take five minutes to pick up their orders.


Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: LauraMars on December 14, 2015, 05:07:41 PM
You have three days before the food spoils. Then cook it and you have another three days on top of that?

Don't forget it's 3RL days of logged in time. 

While it's 3 days of RL time

Not sure where people are getting the "3 RL days!" number.  It's 36 hours. (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg916424.html#msg916424) That's 1.5 real life days.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Bushranger on December 14, 2015, 05:11:01 PM
Will fruit on trees, berries on plants, etc spoil on the branch when the game has been up for more than 36hrs?
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Ender on December 14, 2015, 05:19:48 PM
36 hours (a day and a half) is short enough that the entire concept of food storage is going to be a thing of the past until code taking drying/curing/salting is in place.

That being said, I'm curious to how long those processes will extend the life of food.  Is this something the staff feels comfortable with sharing as to what kinda food life extensions we should expect?

Also, what are the staff's thoughts on high strength characters/half-giants/etc. loading themselves down with food to get around this?  Or PCs picking up ludicrous amounts of food before logging out.  Will this be considered cheating the intention of the code?
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Delirium on December 14, 2015, 05:22:49 PM
Let's also take a look at the weight of food vs fulfillment vs actual size.

Strips of dried meat can be surprisingly (i.e. strangely) heavy!
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: James de Monet on December 14, 2015, 05:22:57 PM
Also, I didn't read this whole thread so I don't know if anyone else has said it, but can we have more rotten food vendors in the rinth/slums now?  Cheap eats!  Gone tomorrow!
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Malken on December 14, 2015, 05:37:06 PM
Nice.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: nauta on December 14, 2015, 05:37:26 PM
Hey staff,

I'm all sorts of for this change.

However, granted it is 36 hours (and in game right now!)...

I had some time to think about it, and there's a worry that some items might require multiple ingredients (some quite rare) -- but if each ingredient is itself food, then the ingredients will expire before you can make the big cake.  For instance, flour and ginka fruit, both of which are relatively hard to get, so I can imagine someone getting the flour, then waiting on the ginka, then getting the ginka, but having the flour spoil, so waiting on the flour, then getting the ginka, and [poooooof head just exploded].  (Generally, things that require many ingredients from many different places will be pretty hard to pull off.)

A simple example: I ran a bakery last year and made rat meat pies, which only required two things: rat meat and flour.  But it was hard to get both of those together -- either I had a flour shipment come in without the meat or the meat shipment without the flour.

I hope the worry is clear enough.

Perhaps we can bump the expiration up, or have no expiration until certain items can be flagged as more permanent (e.g., tubers and flour shouldn't spoil that quickly) or until preserving containers are implemented  -- that is, phase two or whatever?

Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Large Hero on December 14, 2015, 05:49:28 PM
Contrary to those expressing worry over incomplete additions or a lack of testing, I'm glad this went in as it did. The game needs a lot of changes, and this is one of them. I'm glad it got in "quickly." This isn't a hospital or a space travel engineering bay. It's fine to fix things later. Getting changes into the game now is good.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: manipura on December 14, 2015, 05:59:52 PM
You have three days before the food spoils. Then cook it and you have another three days on top of that?

Don't forget it's 3RL days of logged in time.

While it's 3 days of RL time

Not sure where people are getting the "3 RL days!" number.  It's 36 hours. (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg916424.html#msg916424) That's 1.5 real life days.

I was assuming that the 3 RL days being mentioned was in regard to having raw food for almost it's full shelf-life (1.5 days) and then cooking it to produce a new food item, which would have another 1.5 days before spoiling.
 If that's the food that people are gathering for an event, which is what was being talked about, then it's likely going to be two-step food (aka cooked).


Edit: At the risk of asking another stupid question, what about items that are 'edible' but aren't typical food items.  Meaning...there are some items in game that are generally used for other things but also happen to be edible.  These are going to spoil as well, even though they are things generally used in say, making tablets or treating leathers?
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: bardlyone on December 14, 2015, 06:37:24 PM
idea: make the massive sack of flour a nonfood item so it will keep indefinitely. only when it's opened to portion into smaller bags, would it spoil. given the prevalence of the big bags vs small ones for purchase in the currently open game areas, that might be helpful?
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Xalle on December 14, 2015, 06:39:30 PM
Also, what are the staff's thoughts on high strength characters/half-giants/etc. loading themselves down with food to get around this?  

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-G9wN5KklYFw/VUOt5_pB7HI/AAAAAAAAHZk/eRdZVC-_Okg/s1600/meat-man.jpg)

'haha suckerz mai meat wont spoil'
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Synthesis on December 14, 2015, 06:41:02 PM
Meh.  Stupid and pointless, but not too annoying.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Lithium on December 14, 2015, 06:49:32 PM
Also, what are the staff's thoughts on high strength characters/half-giants/etc. loading themselves down with food to get around this?  

'haha suckerz mai meat wont spoil'


There goes my bacon-wrapped HG concept. :-[
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Lizzie on December 14, 2015, 06:59:11 PM
I don't remember flour (the raw material in sacks or massive sacks) being edible at all. They're only craftable into edible things. Unless my memory is faulty?
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: nauta on December 14, 2015, 07:12:11 PM
I don't remember flour (the raw material in sacks or massive sacks) being edible at all. They're only craftable into edible things. Unless my memory is faulty?

Anyone in game got a big bag of flour they want to test this on?  :D

You might be right on the specific case -- although the ultimate solution would be to make flour into one of those super long decay food items in phase two or whatever --

But I can think of several other big ticket items that require a lot of little ingredients to make.  If you are working on your own, it'd be impossible to get them all together in the 36 hour window; if you were working with a hopping clan with hunters to get you the raw ingredients quickly?  Maybe... but even then the amount of coordination to get that fancy cake made seems a bit mad.  (In any case, I think you could count these cases on one hand and probably just work with staff to fix the recipes / find a solution.)
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Molten Heart on December 14, 2015, 07:15:37 PM
This is great news for wine and cheese lovers.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: BadSkeelz on December 14, 2015, 07:17:46 PM
Huh. About wine...

Does this apply to consumable liquids as well?
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: nauta on December 14, 2015, 07:22:59 PM
Huh. About wine...

Does this apply to consumable liquids as well?

As nesselin put it: "If 'eat' command works on the item, it is food, and will age."

Although, judging by your signature and gdb persona, I think I should be more specific: No, you do not eat wine.  :D

(I could be totally wrong, by the way.  I'm just assuming the liquid code is different.  Although... what if water did evaporate in barrels?  Ouch.  Survival mode times twenty.)

Oh, man.  Cheeses.  All those lovely cheeses will have to wait for phase two to outlive scrab steaks.

ETA: Sands!  My candy necklace!  (Candies should go to the top of the pile for the phase two stuff.  I'm not biased at all.)
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Bushranger on December 14, 2015, 07:29:54 PM
What about food that is alive? Like wriggling grubs or sandhoppers?
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: manipura on December 14, 2015, 07:51:52 PM
I don't remember flour (the raw material in sacks or massive sacks) being edible at all. They're only craftable into edible things. Unless my memory is faulty?

Anyone in game got a big bag of flour they want to test this on?  :D

You might be right on the specific case -- although the ultimate solution would be to make flour into one of those super long decay food items in phase two or whatever --

But I can think of several other big ticket items that require a lot of little ingredients to make.  If you are working on your own, it'd be impossible to get them all together in the 36 hour window; if you were working with a hopping clan with hunters to get you the raw ingredients quickly?  Maybe... but even then the amount of coordination to get that fancy cake made seems a bit mad.  (In any case, I think you could count these cases on one hand and probably just work with staff to fix the recipes / find a solution.)

Well the things I was specifically thinking of are items you can technically 'eat' but are more often used in making other non-edible items.  I'm assuming that the items in question will poof into dust, even though they're typically kept and used for non-food purposes.  Which will be sort of annoying, in the case of a few specific items.  Now that flour is mentioned, I'm not sure if it's edible on it's own or not.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Seeker on December 14, 2015, 08:02:11 PM
What about food that is alive? Like wriggling grubs or sandhoppers?
If this new implementation ruins my Sandhopper Ranch plot, I swear I am writing the tartest staff complaint you ever did see.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Desertman on December 14, 2015, 08:31:36 PM
What about tablets?

You can "eat" tablets....
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Nergal on December 14, 2015, 08:49:46 PM
Tablets won't spoil.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: nessalin on December 14, 2015, 09:02:04 PM
What about food that is alive? Like wriggling grubs or sandhoppers?

While currently they will age like all foods, in the future they will not.  We had a pre-existing setting to indicate foods that were bugs (rather than meat, fruit, dried-fruit, etc...)
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: LauraMars on December 14, 2015, 09:15:14 PM
ETA: Sands!  My candy necklace!  (Candies should go to the top of the pile for the phase two stuff.  I'm not biased at all.)

shit the candy necklace. I love that thing.

when I played a noble I gave one to my npc guard and had him wear it. and when people commented on it he said his daughter gave it to him.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Norcal on December 14, 2015, 09:29:10 PM
You eat tablets. Does this apply to tablets?
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: LauraMars on December 14, 2015, 09:30:07 PM
You eat tablets. Does this apply to tablets?

Tablets won't spoil.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Riev on December 14, 2015, 09:38:33 PM
I'm concerned nobody has asked the glaring "bag of ____" question. Or, because they're in a bag, maybe they don't spoil?
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: nessalin on December 14, 2015, 09:45:29 PM
Huh. About wine...

Does this apply to consumable liquids as well?

Drink items are not affected by age.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Nathvaan on December 14, 2015, 09:51:29 PM
I'm concerned nobody has asked the glaring "bag of ____" question. Or, because they're in a bag, maybe they don't spoil?

Items in containers are affected by age.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: nessalin on December 14, 2015, 09:54:35 PM
Also now I really want to make a character that can master-craft Pemmican.

Eaten a lot of pemmican in my time.  Shit do last. Also makes you start wondering what boiled bark tastes like, in comparison.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: nessalin on December 14, 2015, 10:03:12 PM
A simple example: I ran a bakery last year and made rat meat pies, which only required two things: rat meat and flour.  But it was hard to get both of those together -- either I had a flour shipment come in without the meat or the meat shipment without the flour.

Without commenting on your concerns and how (if) they'll be specifically addressed, the scenario you've laid out is something I would actually like to see.

Being able to line up all the fresh ingredients required to make something like a cake should be, in and of itself, cause for celebration.

Think of war-rationing when saving up ration cards AND finding what you wanted available was enough reason to throw a party.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: The Silence of the Erdlus on December 14, 2015, 10:03:58 PM
People will actually want mastercrafted food now! I'm very happy about that. Also rangers apparently get better with every third change to the game.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Delirium on December 14, 2015, 10:27:26 PM
I just had another thought - what about food that spawns in the game, such as fruits in bushes (as opposed to "pickable" fruit) and eggs in nests?
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Nathvaan on December 14, 2015, 10:54:08 PM
I just had another thought - what about food that spawns in the game, such as fruits in bushes (as opposed to "pickable" fruit) and eggs in nests?

I believe this may have been asked earlier in the thread but yes, those fruits will be subject to aging.  I think of it like apples on a tree.  When you can 'get apple tree' it means it's ripe and ready to be eaten but if you leave it on the tree for too long if falls off and rots.  Similar thing here I suppose.  There are procedures in place to spawn the fruit and now there will be procedures in place to rot the fruit too. Hope that helps!
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: manipura on December 14, 2015, 11:05:48 PM
I think it got overlooked when I hinted at it on the last page, so I'll mention it again:

Leaves and plants that are edible, but aren't typically food (like bimbal leaves)?  Are they subject to this?
The paste you craft from a food item but don't typically eat, instead it's used for leather working?  Subject to spoilage?
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: LauraMars on December 14, 2015, 11:10:50 PM
haha, imagine if we were still using baby items and they were still coded as food
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Old Kank on December 14, 2015, 11:13:16 PM
This seems like a cool, reasonable change.

I also think it's going to be mild- to really-annoying for independents, unless the cost of food is brought down.  Maybe not that bad in practice, though.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Taven on December 15, 2015, 12:04:36 AM
idea: make the massive sack of flour a nonfood item so it will keep indefinitely. only when it's opened to portion into smaller bags, would it spoil. given the prevalence of the big bags vs small ones for purchase in the currently open game areas, that might be helpful?

Yes, please fix flour. Flour going bad means it's impossible even to go bake people treats when you feel like it, unless you happen to live in an area where flour is readily available.

My only other concern is that this makes any sort of rare dishes made or rare meats collected much harder to deal with. I think someone else mentioned this could be an issue for event planning. Maybe food storage/preservation will help this along.


Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Tisiphone on December 15, 2015, 12:13:49 AM
Code: [Select]
The lightly-spoiled blue-eyed, blond-haired infant is here.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: LauraMars on December 15, 2015, 12:30:34 AM
Code: [Select]
The lightly-spoiled blue-eyed, blond-haired infant is here.

Code: [Select]
A small crowd of people is here, silently judging the lightly-spoiled, blue-eyed, blond-haired infant's parents.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Armaddict on December 15, 2015, 12:53:49 AM
Thanks a lot finals week.  You killed my foodstores after one day!
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: manipura on December 15, 2015, 01:25:10 AM
So.  If food is supposed to spoil over a period of 36 RL hours, and it goes from fine, to lightly-spoiled, to heavily-spoiled....I don't think all the food I had that was lightly spoiled an hour ago should be gone now.

If the code went live around 6 or 7 server time, Monday morning, then 36 hours should be Tuesday afternoon.  *grumbles*
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: nauta on December 15, 2015, 01:47:07 AM
Can confirm -- all those precious treats, I couldn't eat them fast enough.  I set out puke poison, and my pile of candies.  They evaporated into dust.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: manipura on December 15, 2015, 01:57:56 AM
Can confirm -- all those precious treats, I couldn't eat them fast enough.  I set out puke poison, and my pile of candies.  They evaporated into dust.

*sigh* All the precious treats.  All the goodness I was in the middle of gorging on and making into more deliciousness.  All the sadness.
(All dramatic joking aside, it is sort of a bummer.)
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: RogueGunslinger on December 15, 2015, 01:58:14 AM
Can confirm -- all those precious treats, I couldn't eat them fast enough.  I set out puke poison, and my pile of candies.  They evaporated into dust.

Hahahha, this got a serious giggle out of me.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Bushranger on December 15, 2015, 05:09:11 AM
Huh. About wine...

Does this apply to consumable liquids as well?

Drink items are not affected by age.

Shouldn't wine get better with age? Nessalin can you reverse the polarity on the code for consumable liquids? :)
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaare on December 15, 2015, 06:39:57 AM
Bravo and thanks. Great addition!
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: The Silence of the Erdlus on December 15, 2015, 07:04:19 AM
I'm guessing travel cakes and rations will be made to last longer in the future, right?

It is nice not to be able to store a full large bag of food anymore for realism reasons. A clan maybe, but I used to do this for one or two people for several months at a time.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: nessalin on December 15, 2015, 07:17:32 AM
So.  If food is supposed to spoil over a period of 36 RL hours, and it goes from fine, to lightly-spoiled, to heavily-spoiled....I don't think all the food I had that was lightly spoiled an hour ago should be gone now.

If the code went live around 6 or 7 server time, Monday morning, then 36 hours should be Tuesday afternoon.  *grumbles*

Yep, this was unintentional.  We're patching, currently.

For those that lost special items they were looking to have some fun with, feel free to file a reimbursement request.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: The Silence of the Erdlus on December 15, 2015, 07:23:23 AM
They are updating the food aging code as we speak. That was fast! I'm betting they're making the dried stuff last longer.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Harmless on December 15, 2015, 08:39:26 AM
Wow! This is incredible, you've really been kicking ass lately Nessalin. Thanks for this realistic improvement to an already awesome addition!
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Ender on December 15, 2015, 09:03:59 AM
New updates are awesome, alleviated any concerns I had about it.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: LauraMars on December 15, 2015, 09:25:44 AM
somehow even more awesome
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Desertman on December 15, 2015, 10:06:22 AM
Do we have any timelines set in place for the different types of preserved food that are already on the table.

For example:

Non-preserved food lasts 36 RL hours.

How long does salted food last?
Pickled?
So on and so forth....

Also, are we going to be looking at going back and updating the crafting recipes and processes for preserved food to make it more realistic and resource intensive to preserve said food?

For example:

Will smoked food require a fire now?
Will salted food require salt?

That sort of thing.

Thanks.

Also, I have had a raging mekillot in my pants for the last 24 hours. You really know how to make my meat last.

(^I should feel bad about that joke. I sort of do, but part of me feels like a proud father. Save me from myself.)
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: nauta on December 15, 2015, 11:48:02 AM
For those that lost special items they were looking to have some fun with, feel free to file a reimbursement request.

Yes, there was definitely this one kalan I was looking to have some fun with this afternoon.

(Joke Reference (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php?topic=47188.0))
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: SuchDragonWow on December 15, 2015, 01:33:20 PM
Pickled tink about the additions.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Armaddict on December 15, 2015, 02:01:41 PM
Thanks for working fast on it!
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: RogueGunslinger on December 15, 2015, 02:17:33 PM
Wow, great job with the updates, those came quick.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: The Silence of the Erdlus on December 15, 2015, 02:57:38 PM
Will there be more food updates to come?

Just an idea--- we have a few food items like eggs for example that ought to decay quickly compared to most.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: nessalin on December 15, 2015, 03:22:09 PM
Will there be more food updates to come?

Just an idea--- we have a few food items like eggs for example that ought to decay quickly compared to most.

Unwashed eggs last two months.

So...
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: BadSkeelz on December 15, 2015, 03:25:56 PM
The AoD barracks just ain't gonna be the same without that "grey egg" that's been sitting on the grill since at least early 2013.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Armaddict on December 15, 2015, 04:16:51 PM
Will it be evident what is a 'preserving container'?
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Asanadas on December 15, 2015, 04:18:59 PM
The AoD barracks just ain't gonna be the same without that "grey egg" that's been sitting on the grill since at least early 2013.
The one that couldn't be removed, for some reason?

Memories.

At least now it'll decay through the grille, and finally be free.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Case on December 15, 2015, 04:34:19 PM
Spoil me rotten baby

cause I'm food
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: nessalin on December 15, 2015, 05:00:51 PM
Will it be evident what is a 'preserving container'?

Ideally, yes.

'evident' is relative, though.

We can look at adding something in assess on containers to indicate if your character thinks this would be for storing food.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: BadSkeelz on December 15, 2015, 05:03:09 PM
If you put a PC body in a pickling container will it keep for a longer period of time?
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Narf on December 15, 2015, 05:10:18 PM
If you put a PC body in a pickling container will it keep for a longer period of time?

Only if crafted by a halfling.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Desertman on December 15, 2015, 05:55:40 PM
This does make me wonder how hard it would be to tweak a version of this "food aging" code so that it would apply to corpses to reflect how long the corpses had been there.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: solera on December 16, 2015, 03:41:45 AM
It is certainly more real now, but in gaming time, it may be a bit short to get a bahamet steak to Lady Daggerpants. Still a lot easier than getting a fresh corpse to her though.
For the general public, the NPC shopkeepers may be a more active middleman than they have been. It will be interesting to watch how the economy changes, short and long term.

 ;D Pet grasshoppers. RIP.   >:(.     
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: LauraMars on December 16, 2015, 04:00:16 AM
Bugs should probably be given infinite flags.  I mean, they're not infinite, but they are alive, and many of them are also pet objects that can be worn on shoulder etc.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Akariel on December 16, 2015, 05:39:42 AM
If anyone sees any items that they think should have longer lifetimes than the norm, feel free to send me a request titled "ATTN Akariel: Food Project". At this point I'd like to start compiling a list of food items where their crafting message/mdesc/other arbitrary things say they have been preserved in some way. Make sure to clan the request Oash or Fale.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: LauraMars on December 16, 2015, 05:49:32 AM
It would be cool if you could see how a food item had been preserved through assessing it.  For instance:

assess rib
It seems to have been smoked.

It would help players understand what kind of lifespan their food might have.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Lizzie on December 16, 2015, 07:52:21 AM
In -most- cases that I've seen, food that has already been smoked or dried, has some indication of that in their mdesc.  I don't remember the exact sdescs but there are examples of simple strips of meat - they look kind of like their smoked version until you read the mdesc and see very clearly that these aren't the raw strips; they're the smoked strips.

I don't think there needs to be any redundancy by adding the same information into assess. I do think it'd be important for the staff to add a flag to anything that says it's smoked, but isn't decaying like smoked, so that it will behave appropriately.

Also I LOVE the twist to the foods that are skinned at the same time but don't go poof at the exact same time. It gives a player at least a chance at having a bite before the whole bag full goes poof.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Akariel on December 16, 2015, 07:59:36 AM
I do think it'd be important for the staff to add a flag to anything that says it's smoked, but isn't decaying like smoked, so that it will behave appropriately.

The obvious ones (with smoked/ect. In their sdesc) should have this flag already.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: AdamBlue on December 16, 2015, 08:41:57 AM
Food preserving containers should straight up just stop food from aging, in my opinion, but be very expensive. It would cause people who are losing their minds over the planning logistics of having to organize food and timing management for events step back and blow out a sigh of relief.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: nessalin on December 16, 2015, 09:08:27 AM
With the latest change, an optimal stacking of bonuses would give food items a 75% resistance to aging.  This would result in food lasting around 6 RL days.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: AdamBlue on December 16, 2015, 09:26:24 AM
I say that foods should last 1.5x longer entirely.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Brytta Léofa on December 16, 2015, 09:45:18 AM
DRIED food such as jerky - can last for years and never spoils.

I think that DRIED foods should last 5x longer than the maximum possible now: if you have a cook, the right ingredients, and a place to store it indoors, you can stockpile food that will last ~ 1 RL month.  It gives something to work for.

What I don't want to see is people stockpiling edible live insects 'cause they're the only readily-available thing that lasts. :D
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Desertman on December 16, 2015, 10:09:12 AM
I think the preserved foods should last around ten RL days, for not only playability purposes but economic purposes. (Six days seems a bit short to me.)

If you tell me my cooked steak -might- last six RL days if I salt it....or it will last three days in a nice dark place....I'm probably not going through the extra effort of expending the time and resources to gather and use preservatives.

(Unless the process for salting/smoking/preserving food is just....craft item.....use magic salt that isn't really there....in that case, it's a no effort system and I will go ahead and preserve it.)

Adding a note: Either way, this new system is a billion times better in my opinion than the old system. Great work guys.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: The Silence of the Erdlus on December 16, 2015, 10:29:54 AM
What I don't want to see is people stockpiling edible live insects 'cause they're the only readily-available thing that lasts. :D

I was about to say 'why not' but then I realize these things would realistically require food to stay alive, so the very poor really ought not to be stockpiling them.

They will, but its a better system than we had, where apartments and House airtight bins could be filled with two months worth of food without consequence.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Armaddict on December 16, 2015, 12:06:26 PM
Should we be bugging food items that say they are cured/salted/smoked but do not appear to last longer?
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Akariel on December 16, 2015, 12:13:29 PM
Should we be bugging food items that say they are cured/salted/smoked but do not appear to last longer?

If anyone sees any items that they think should have longer lifetimes than the norm, feel free to send me a request titled "ATTN Akariel: Food Project". At this point I'd like to start compiling a list of food items where their crafting message/mdesc/other arbitrary things say they have been preserved in some way. Make sure to clan the request Oash or Fale.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Armaddict on December 16, 2015, 12:25:52 PM
Should we be bugging food items that say they are cured/salted/smoked but do not appear to last longer?

If anyone sees any items that they think should have longer lifetimes than the norm, feel free to send me a request titled "ATTN Akariel: Food Project". At this point I'd like to start compiling a list of food items where their crafting message/mdesc/other arbitrary things say they have been preserved in some way. Make sure to clan the request Oash or Fale.

Thank you, I guess my 'missed posts' button didn't catch this.  I'm assuming that this is the same for 'food preserving containers'.

On that point, how picky are you wanting to be?  Will food preserving containers be 'special items' that most people just don't have access to, or will it be common for every home?  I.e. Urns and baskets and hampers, are they 'food preserving', or should we only submit it if their description specifically states that they're air-tight?
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Akariel on December 16, 2015, 12:32:38 PM
Should we be bugging food items that say they are cured/salted/smoked but do not appear to last longer?

If anyone sees any items that they think should have longer lifetimes than the norm, feel free to send me a request titled "ATTN Akariel: Food Project". At this point I'd like to start compiling a list of food items where their crafting message/mdesc/other arbitrary things say they have been preserved in some way. Make sure to clan the request Oash or Fale.

Thank you, I guess my 'missed posts' button didn't catch this.  I'm assuming that this is the same for 'food preserving containers'.

On that point, how picky are you wanting to be?  Will food preserving containers be 'special items' that most people just don't have access to, or will it be common for every home?  I.e. Urns and baskets and hampers, are they 'food preserving', or should we only submit it if their description specifically states that they're air-tight?

Right now I'm just handling foods that should be preserved in some way. We've already got the flags on anything with 'salted', 'smoked', 'dried', and 'jerky' in the sdesc, but if you catch an item without those in the sdesc and it mentions it in the mdesc, or the crafting message, then shoot it over.

For containers I'm not really sure at the moment. You can throw them at me and I'll discuss it with the others.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: solera on December 16, 2015, 01:03:59 PM
In our dryish climate dried fruit lasts forever (years) until the weevils find it. How long do dates last in their homeland?
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: nauta on December 16, 2015, 01:14:33 PM
Hmm, maybe this has been answered above: Do all foods spoil at the same rates?

From what I can tell:

o prepared foods (dried, smoked, cured, etc.) take longer to spoil.
o bugs take longer to spoil (or maybe they don't spoil)?

What about (these are all items I think should take longer to spoil)?:

o tubers (unprepared)
o roots
o wheat
o flour
o candy items (candied necklaces)
o saps (the golden sap)
o nuts
o seeds
o elf fingers (those are Zalanthan twinkies, right?)

(I wish I knew the food categories.  Sorry this list is pellmell.)
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: nessalin on December 16, 2015, 01:31:04 PM
Currently food aging ignores food-type (bread, meat, fruit, tuber, etc...), relying instead on environment (indoors, darkness), treatment (salted, smoked, dried, etc..), and where it is (preservation container, or not).

We can configure different maximum ages for foods based on food-type, but currently do not.  Right now they all have the same max age (216 game hours).  Changing maximums by food-type will probably be one of the last things to be tuned, and gradually.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Armaddict on December 16, 2015, 02:03:19 PM
I think timeframes need to be adjusted earlier than later.

Right now there is actual incentive to not log in when resources gathered need to go to specific people.  The log in/check/log out becomes the rule in order to not make your work useless.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Desertman on December 16, 2015, 02:40:25 PM
I do know when I take food orders for people in the future they WILL pay up front and I WILL arrange for them to be around at a certain time for delivery that both parties agree to.

If they fail to show up at the designated time they lose their money because I gathered the food and they let it go bad.

They aren't paying for the food. They are paying for my labor/risk in gathering it.

That's really the only way to go about that. But honestly, that seems very realistic. If someone orders three scrabs worth of scrab meat...they need to arrange to be there to pick it up before it goes bad.

It might be a little taxing on the playability front, but I think the positives outweigh the negatives.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Armaddict on December 16, 2015, 03:03:13 PM
...none of those things you listed are easy to get other people to 'go for', because that's not the way people see things.  You may have experiences where you had characters who were established enough that people felt safe 'paying for the labor, not the product', but that's a very strange outlook to try and maintain as a rule of thumb in counterargument to feedback about how things are currently going. (Edit here:  Not to mention...demand a specific meeting time or it won't happen?  That's...a 'little' taxing on playability?)

Things may change as tweaks are made, but such was the purpose of the feedback I was trying to convey, which was 'This is a promoting an unhealthy line of thought in its current state, and a simple tweak here could remove said thing.'  I'm still not dissing the idea, I'm trying to refine it here into filling a 'good spot' in the game.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Desertman on December 16, 2015, 03:25:51 PM
...none of those things you listed are easy to get other people to 'go for', because that's not the way people see things.  You may have experiences where you had characters who were established enough that people felt safe 'paying for the labor, not the product', but that's a very strange outlook to try and maintain as a rule of thumb in counterargument to feedback about how things are currently going. (Edit here:  Not to mention...demand a specific meeting time or it won't happen?  That's...a 'little' taxing on playability?)

Things may change as tweaks are made, but such was the purpose of the feedback I was trying to convey, which was 'This is a promoting an unhealthy line of thought in its current state, and a simple tweak here could remove said thing.'  I'm still not dissing the idea, I'm trying to refine it here into filling a 'good spot' in the game.

It's Zalanthas. If someone is buying from your pre-gathered goods they can pick and choose from your basket.

If they want to place a special order with you to go out and do dangerous as fuck shit....they better pay up front, at least partially.

I think that is very Zalanthan. In fact, so does the T'zai Byn.

(I'm also not opposed to changes to make this more playable. In fact, I think it is probably needed. That's a hardline tactic to use and I was just pointing out that with the current system, you will probably have to use it for food orders.)

Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Armaddict on December 16, 2015, 03:38:43 PM
...you're comparing the T'zai Byn to the average rangers who go out and get knick-knack crafter needs for people?

Again, you may be coming from a place where your characters can push for such bargains, like the T'zai Byn, but in average business dealings, the 'pay up front or get nothing' usually results in 'I'll get someone else.'  That is expected behavior, unless you're in a position that you've been able to successfully acquire for that person or group for long enough that you have established that as a the expectation.

This 'I'll find someone else' happens in everything from acquisitions to services.  Basing the code of the game off of the interactions of only those groups who have the power to make such demands is not exactly healthy.  At this point, you're arguing against feedback purely to be argumentative, demanding that the very basis of average dealings change in perspective rather than listen to the prospect that numbers in a new thing might just need tweaking.  And this feedback is not 'Remove this idea, I don't like it', it is 'This current setting has it very hard to make the meetings that need to happen happen'.

The result is the opposite of what you're desiring, thusfar, which is I won't get those goods.  There will be less interaction over those items.  So it's great that the endless supply of chalton meat now decays, but on the other hand, getting harder-to-find-food-items (or food items that are also used for other purposes) to or from someone who doesn't log in every day is now a feat of scheduling, resulting in playtime adjustment based on making that meeting.  That's undesirable.  And the only tweak it requires is to make it less of a pressing issue, time-wise, -at least- until all the new code gets sorted out.


Edit:  And honestly, it's not even worth arguing whether you should or shouldn't listen to my feedback.  Perhaps I'm an anomaly.  But the login/check/logout will continue for now, I suppose.
 Edit again:  The above was not noticing D-man's edit, I agree with his statement that this is a good change and should stay in, but could be made more player-friendly and still establish our desired result.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Desertman on December 16, 2015, 03:51:21 PM
...you're comparing the T'zai Byn to the average rangers who go out and get knick-knack crafter needs for people?

Again, you may be coming from a place where your characters can push for such bargains, like the T'zai Byn, but in average business dealings, the 'pay up front or get nothing' usually results in 'I'll get someone else.'  That is expected behavior, unless you're in a position that you've been able to successfully acquire for that person or group for long enough that you have established that as a the expectation.

This 'I'll find someone else' happens in everything from acquisitions to services.  Basing the code of the game off of the interactions of only those groups who have the power to make such demands is not exactly healthy.  At this point, you're arguing against feedback purely to be argumentative, demanding that the very basis of average dealings change in perspective rather than listen to the prospect that numbers in a new thing might just need tweaking.  And this feedback is not 'Remove this idea, I don't like it', it is 'This current setting has it very hard to make the meetings that need to happen happen'.

The result is the opposite of what you're desiring, thusfar, which is I won't get those goods.  There will be less interaction over those items.  So it's great that the endless supply of chalton meat now decays, but on the other hand, getting harder-to-find-food-items (or food items that are also used for other purposes) to or from someone who doesn't log in every day is now a feat of scheduling, resulting in playtime adjustment based on making that meeting.  That's undesirable.  And the only tweak it requires is to make it less of a pressing issue, time-wise, -at least- until all the new code gets sorted out.


Edit:  And honestly, it's not even worth arguing whether you should or shouldn't listen to my feedback.  Perhaps I'm an anomaly.  But the login/check/logout will continue for now, I suppose.

I think you posted this tirade about me not wanting change and hating your feedback and disagreeing with you before you saw my edit where I said exactly the opposite. See timestamp on edit above. Sorry for your confusion.

Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Armaddict on December 16, 2015, 03:57:33 PM
Yup!  Edit fixes it.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: AdamBlue on December 16, 2015, 04:00:17 PM
Currently food aging ignores food-type (bread, meat, fruit, tuber, etc...), relying instead on environment (indoors, darkness), treatment (salted, smoked, dried, etc..), and where it is (preservation container, or not).

We can configure different maximum ages for foods based on food-type, but currently do not.  Right now they all have the same max age (216 game hours).  Changing maximums by food-type will probably be one of the last things to be tuned, and gradually.


So basically 'don't invest in buying any kind of food whatsoever until everything is done unless you plan on eating it immediately' is what you're saying?
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Desertman on December 16, 2015, 04:00:58 PM
No worries.  :)
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Xalle on December 16, 2015, 04:08:18 PM
I made flour infinite for now, and candy necklaces.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Desertman on December 16, 2015, 04:13:01 PM
I made flour infinite for now, and candy necklaces.

My wife and I were just talking about flour in this regard yesterday.

This is a good change.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: RogueGunslinger on December 16, 2015, 04:42:22 PM
After some time to consider, I don't find this change very appetizing. You've made hunger-code go from something that facilitated roleplay, to something that is now an annoyance.

What will Recruit AOD soldiers do when someone isn't around to fetch them food from the Templar Quarter, log out? Is a poor corporal going to have to deal with the tedium of making sure food is stocked EVERY time they log in? Boy maybe this will be the moment the recruits finally get a cook.

Planning for two-day (or more) spanning RPTs will now have to account for whether or not food will be where you're going, and if you've got rangers good enough to feed everyone off their forage skill.

For indies, or just anyone who is heading out to spend extended  time in the wilderness more time will have to be devoted to acquiring food, instead of doing other interesting things.

And staff are now going to be spending their time trying to fill all the holes in to make it less annoying.

There just seems to be lots of ways this will end up being a nuisance, and the only benefit we're getting form the change is now things are "more realistic" and store rooms will be less crowded.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Saellyn on December 16, 2015, 04:45:46 PM
That's what rations are for.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: RogueGunslinger on December 16, 2015, 04:47:34 PM
That's what rations are for.

Which go against the realism that's trying to be created.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Desertman on December 16, 2015, 04:53:27 PM
That's what rations are for.

Which go against the realism that's trying to be created.

Rations last for a very very very long time realistically.  I don't see the issue.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: RogueGunslinger on December 16, 2015, 04:57:14 PM
That's what rations are for.

Which go against the realism that's trying to be created.

Rations last for a very very very long time realistically.  I don't see the issue.


Eh? It's just dried fruit and meat. It shouldn't last any longer than the other dried fruit and meat in the game.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Molten Heart on December 16, 2015, 05:01:32 PM
Dried meats and fruits don't really go bad, they just get stale and hard. Some rations will bypass the code that ages food because they have to be unwrapped or opened before they become food objects.

It'd be cool if some cooks were able to wrap or prepare rations from foods they've dried to make them not age, or maybe age less quickly as if they were in a container and in the dark working like other preservation methods work.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Armaddict on December 16, 2015, 05:03:32 PM
I agree with you, RGS, but NOT if they add in long-lasting food that is actually long lasting.  That's what I was talking about, with the hunter types and recruits and such still having food.  It's just all...rations, cured food, salted meats.

Nobility and rich merchants, on the other hand, will have the means to say 'I want tasty delicious food.'

In essence, I don't think it breaks the game so long as those longer-lasting items are made.  It just makes it so that different people eat different kinds of food.  I, the fruit forager, will be hawking fruits.  Nobles and such will buy it, because they are rare and harder to find.  But I will lower my price as they start to spoil.  So on and so forth.

The issue I have with the thing is its incomplete state (however, they are making adjustments -very- quickly, which I think is a testament that they realize the fragile, undesirable place it's at right now), and the decay rate being much faster than what I'd desire our food items to have to go through.  We didn't need extremes in this regard to get what we wanted out of it in that discussion.  Where we are now, I consider a sort of extreme until more work goes into the preservation, or more work goes into the individual foods themselves (i.e. Like I said in RAT, bar food gets cheaper and decays quickly, while rations are more valuable and last a -long- time, as is the case when you prepare for long trips).
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: BadSkeelz on December 16, 2015, 05:12:32 PM
Or maybe time to add a cook NPC to the AoD Recruits barracks. Pretty sure they're the only clan that doesn't have freely available food and water for the lowest rank.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: manipura on December 16, 2015, 11:27:25 PM
Since this is an OOC change, and presumably food in Zalanthas has been spoiling for our PC's entire lives, I feel like these new container types that are meant for preserving food would be fairly commonplace. 
Things that anyone who lived in any sort of city or village would at least have an idea about.  Or maybe I'm the only one who feels like it's some elusive food preservation treasure chest that I'm in search of!  :D
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: AdamBlue on December 16, 2015, 11:30:15 PM
Since this is an OOC change, and presumably food in Zalanthas has been spoiling for our PC's entire lives, I feel like these new container types that are meant for preserving food would be fairly commonplace. 
Things that anyone who lived in any sort of city or village would at least have an idea about.  Or maybe I'm the only one who feels like it's some elusive food preservation treasure chest that I'm in search of!  :D

There should be a food preserver in any somewhat decent apartment, like cisterns or shelves.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: manipura on December 16, 2015, 11:36:29 PM
Since this is an OOC change, and presumably food in Zalanthas has been spoiling for our PC's entire lives, I feel like these new container types that are meant for preserving food would be fairly commonplace. 
Things that anyone who lived in any sort of city or village would at least have an idea about.  Or maybe I'm the only one who feels like it's some elusive food preservation treasure chest that I'm in search of!  :D

There should be a food preserver in any somewhat decent apartment, like cisterns or shelves.

Yes!  I also thought that would be nice.  The better apartments that already have hearths and cisterns and that sort of thing, would have a food storage bin as well.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: AdamBlue on December 16, 2015, 11:39:33 PM
I honestly think the system should probably be redacted into a no-rot system until everything is properly made and ready. The 'gradual progression build on' is a bit jarring, especially since foods that really shouldn't be going bad are going bad super quick, still. The fact that -legumes- start spoiling after 1 RL day is just strange. I also do not think that the food-rotting system should even be so short for ALL foods.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: MeTekillot on December 17, 2015, 05:31:22 AM
1 RL day is a Zalanthan week. Would a peanut left out for a week+ still be edible?
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: hyzhenhok on December 17, 2015, 05:45:56 AM
If we go by RL standards, I'd say grains and roots are rotting too quickly. Unprepared meat is rotting too slowly. Fruit is about right. I think ideally, you would want to have those groups of foods rotting at different rates in addition to modifications by food preparation.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Armaddict on December 17, 2015, 06:14:58 AM
1 RL day is a Zalanthan week. Would a peanut left out for a week+ still be edible?

Yes.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Lizzie on December 17, 2015, 08:31:31 AM
FYI: I purchased a case of clementines two weeks ago.
I still have 4 clementines left. I ate one this morning, and it was ripe and juicy and not even almost over-ripe yet.
I ate one the first day after I took it home, and it was also ripe and juicy, though not quite as much as this morning's fruit.

Apples, on the other hand, start to turn mealy after they've been on the counter for a week.

Point being - depends on the fruit but - fruits -can- certainly retain their edible quality well into the two-week mark.

Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Saellyn on December 17, 2015, 08:46:31 AM
... Flags:

longlived

What the fuck?
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: LauraMars on December 17, 2015, 08:53:40 AM
... Flags:

longlived

What the fuck?

Probably just to represent foods that last a while longer in their natural state.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: nessalin on December 17, 2015, 09:01:19 AM
... Flags:

longlived

What the fuck?

Probably just to represent foods that last a while longer in their natural state.

Yup.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Desertman on December 17, 2015, 10:16:48 AM
If we haven't already are we going to be looking at updating crafting recipes to incorporate actual preservatives and tools into the preserving process?

In the past if you salted/dried/smoked something....you didn't really need anything other than the craft command to do that. You could salt a piece of meat without a single grain of salt for a thousand miles. You could dry and smoke meat without any fire. So on and so forth...

If we find these in game should we submit them to get them changed?
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Akariel on December 17, 2015, 10:19:05 AM
If we haven't already are we going to be looking at updating crafting recipes to incorporate actual preservatives and tools into the preserving process?

In the past if you salted/dried/smoked something....you didn't really need anything other than the craft command to do that. You could salt a piece of meat without a single grain of salt for a thousand miles. You could dry and smoke meat without any fire. So on and so forth...

If we find these in game should we submit them to get them changed?

You can idea them in game.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Saellyn on December 17, 2015, 10:19:56 AM
If we haven't already are we going to be looking at updating crafting recipes to incorporate actual preservatives and tools into the preserving process?

In the past if you salted/dried/smoked something....you didn't really need anything other than the craft command to do that. You could salt a piece of meat without a single grain of salt for a thousand miles. You could dry and smoke meat without any fire. So on and so forth...

If we find these in game should we submit them to get them changed?

You can idea them in game.

You mean send in a request tool thingy because nobody looks at ideas xD
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Akariel on December 17, 2015, 10:23:44 AM
If we haven't already are we going to be looking at updating crafting recipes to incorporate actual preservatives and tools into the preserving process?

In the past if you salted/dried/smoked something....you didn't really need anything other than the craft command to do that. You could salt a piece of meat without a single grain of salt for a thousand miles. You could dry and smoke meat without any fire. So on and so forth...

If we find these in game should we submit them to get them changed?

You can idea them in game.

You mean send in a request tool thingy because nobody looks at ideas xD

Ideas are looked into frequently enough. Requests require a certain team to look into them. Ideas do not.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Saellyn on December 17, 2015, 10:27:16 AM
.......

Code: [Select]
The short-haired, green-eyed man opens his mouth, takes his foot, and inserts it.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: MeTekillot on December 17, 2015, 10:27:47 AM
Make spoiled loaves of bread turn into bludgeoning weapons instead of rotting away.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: LauraMars on December 17, 2015, 10:32:41 AM
I dunno why we'd need to change recipes to accommodate the food aging code.

Yes, it would be cool if recipes needed salt or whatever, but there's always going to be virtual components for tons of crafting recipes, be it food, clothing, armor, or weapons.

Not trying to be a downer, I get what Desertman is saying, but it doesn't seem like implementing food aging necessarily requires food recipes to be more realistic or require more ingredients.  Food will age now regardless of what the recipe for crafting a salted strip of meat is.  And making crafting recipes more complex is a good way for them to get lost as people forget how to make them, especially now that food will poof instead of remain helpfully on a shelf for years to be analyzed.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: nauta on December 17, 2015, 10:44:07 AM
1 RL day is a Zalanthan week. Would a peanut left out for a week+ still be edible?

They're Zalanthan peanuts!  So much more hale and robust.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Desertman on December 17, 2015, 10:45:56 AM
I dunno why we'd need to change recipes to accommodate the food aging code.

Yes, it would be cool if recipes needed salt or whatever, but there's always going to be virtual components for tons of crafting recipes, be it food, clothing, armor, or weapons.

Not trying to be a downer, I get what Desertman is saying, but it doesn't seem like implementing food aging necessarily requires food recipes to be more realistic or require more ingredients.  Food will age now regardless of what the recipe for crafting a salted strip of meat is.  And making crafting recipes more complex is a good way for them to get lost as people forget how to make them, especially now that food will poof instead of remain helpfully on a shelf for years to be analyzed.

I personally never create a mastercraft that requires a single virtual component. It is a pet peeve of mine and I don't and won't condone it and I will always try and fix it when I see it.

I am in the minority, and I'm ok with that.  :)

My whole reason for this however is to add another player-to-player element to salt foraging instead of it being a completely PC to NPC relationship.

I also want to make chefs/cooks more useful and their job more interesting within clans.

Granted, salting food in this regard (requiring actual salt) would be more difficult than just using the craft code and smoking it. In order for this to work you would have to make salting food a much better and efficient method of preserving than any other method to convince people to expend time and energy to gathering the extra resources (the salt). It might be more effort than its worth.

I would however like to see more of an IC reason for going to forage salt than "Well, the Jal guy buys it.". I would also like to see PC's buying it from other PC's or Houses buying it from PC's to help preserve their food stores for their employees. That sort of thing.

Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: nauta on December 17, 2015, 10:51:45 AM
And making crafting recipes more complex is a good way for them to get lost as people forget how to make them, especially now that food will poof instead of remain helpfully on a shelf for years to be analyzed.

This is my biggest worry with the new (awesome) change: sample items for rare and exotic treats will no longer be around, and so future PCs will no longer be able to gain access to the recipes (very easily, without asking staff).  I hope someone in a position better than my current PC took a chance to jot them all down before the treats went poof.  It's petty and minor, but it's a loss of lore.

I also know of a couple items that have so many rare ingredients, it is impossible to make up the actual item in the 36 hour window.  I'm working with staff on one of them, but the solution would seem to be to preserve some of the individual ingredients -- e.g., instead of a juicy ginka fruit you'd have a dried ginka fruit, or something like that, or a pickled ginka fruit.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Lizzie on December 17, 2015, 11:06:47 AM
And making crafting recipes more complex is a good way for them to get lost as people forget how to make them, especially now that food will poof instead of remain helpfully on a shelf for years to be analyzed.

This is my biggest worry with the new (awesome) change: sample items for rare and exotic treats will no longer be around, and so future PCs will no longer be able to gain access to the recipes (very easily, without asking staff).  I hope someone in a position better than my current PC took a chance to jot them all down before the treats went poof.  It's petty and minor, but it's a loss of lore.

I also know of a couple items that have so many rare ingredients, it is impossible to make up the actual item in the 36 hour window.  I'm working with staff on one of them, but the solution would seem to be to preserve some of the individual ingredients -- e.g., instead of a juicy ginka fruit you'd have a dried ginka fruit, or something like that, or a pickled ginka fruit.

Pickled ginka is probably going to taste really nasty when baked into a pie.

On the other hand, I can totally see a jar of ginka preserves used to make pastries with flour, preserves, marilla sap and a pinch of white salt (no baking soda or baking powder in Arm - but we do have salt!). Could even add an egg if you want to use actual coded ingredients instead of virtual ones. However - using that much stuff should yield a whole lot more than just 2-3 pastries. Maybe if you include a plate on the floor or in your inventory, you'll end up with a plate full of them - a dozen 2-bite pastries. And those pastries will be edible for at least a week.

Anything using vegetable oil should last no more than a week - veggie oil left out to the elements goes rancid very very quickly. Animal fats, however, can last months. Butter at real-world room temperature can stay good for 6 months before it picks up too much ambient scent/dirt to retain its flavor, but will still melt into a cake batter. Butter in a refrigerator can stay good for years. Frozen butter, decades. Butter out in the zalanthan heat? Probably a month, tops, IF it doesn't liquefy before you need to use it.

Personally I like a modified version of d-man's idea, which is - actual components, instead of individual ingredients. So for that plate of ginka pastries:

You don't craft fruit + sugar + flour + salt + egg + oil + water + plate.
Instead, you
craft fruit + sugar to make the preserves.
Then you craft flour + egg + salt + oil + water to make dough.
Then you craft preserves + dough + plate to make plate of ginka pastries.

The preserves would last the longest before decay.
The dough would last the -least- longest.
The pastries would last somewhere in the middle.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: MeTekillot on December 17, 2015, 11:18:17 AM
1 RL day is a Zalanthan week. Would a peanut left out for a week+ still be edible?

They're Zalanthan peanuts!  So much more hale and robust.
harsh desert world, more like harsh DEEZE NUTS
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: MeTekillot on December 17, 2015, 11:37:40 AM
robust nuts

robustin' a nut
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: CodeMaster on December 17, 2015, 11:38:16 AM
Great change.  I love that the PC population got nastily surprised by it.  Vermin and spoilage typically are that way.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: solera on December 17, 2015, 01:18:58 PM
Walnuts in their shells last several years, especially if you are hungry.
Dried ginka in pies would be fine, after soaking and soaking.But preserves would be ++, if the damned sap stayed put.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: AdamBlue on December 17, 2015, 01:21:04 PM
I kinda liked it the way it was before.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: manipura on December 18, 2015, 06:04:15 AM

Pickled ginka is probably going to taste really nasty when baked into a pie.

On the other hand, I can totally see a jar of ginka preserves used to make pastries with flour, preserves, marilla sap and a pinch of white salt (no baking soda or baking powder in Arm - but we do have salt!). Could even add an egg if you want to use actual coded ingredients instead of virtual ones. However - using that much stuff should yield a whole lot more than just 2-3 pastries. Maybe if you include a plate on the floor or in your inventory, you'll end up with a plate full of them - a dozen 2-bite pastries. And those pastries will be edible for at least a week.

Anything using vegetable oil should last no more than a week - veggie oil left out to the elements goes rancid very very quickly. Animal fats, however, can last months. Butter at real-world room temperature can stay good for 6 months before it picks up too much ambient scent/dirt to retain its flavor, but will still melt into a cake batter. Butter in a refrigerator can stay good for years. Frozen butter, decades. Butter out in the zalanthan heat? Probably a month, tops, IF it doesn't liquefy before you need to use it.

Personally I like a modified version of d-man's idea, which is - actual components, instead of individual ingredients. So for that plate of ginka pastries:

You don't craft fruit + sugar + flour + salt + egg + oil + water + plate.
Instead, you
craft fruit + sugar to make the preserves.
Then you craft flour + egg + salt + oil + water to make dough.
Then you craft preserves + dough + plate to make plate of ginka pastries.

The preserves would last the longest before decay.
The dough would last the -least- longest.
The pastries would last somewhere in the middle.


First thought:
I like the idea of having the components instead of just making something all at once.  It always makes me grumble a bit when I come across a recipe in game that is something like:
- craft A
- craft A into cooked A
You craft A into a cooked A, slathered with a savory 'this' sauce and garnished with sprigs of 'that.'

I do think it might be frustrating to get all the ingredients for all the components for the finished recipe, before one part of it starts to spoil.
I guess you'd still just gather all the ingredients at once, and then make it in two or three parts, instead of all in one go.


Second thought:
Not a single bag, hamper, bin, box, trunk, chest, crate, sack etc in game has giving me the assess echo of it being suited to food storage.
Maybe I'll just make a character who has the sole goal of making one of these elusive bins.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: manipura on December 18, 2015, 08:01:50 AM
...everything that is a material used in crafting seems to now be flagged with the negatives of spoiled food, making everything uncraftable.

Code: [Select]
craft shimmering
A small, shimmering skin is not fresh enough to cook with.

craft tan.strip
A tan strip of hide is not fresh enough to cook with.

craft chitinous
A rough, chitinous shell is not fresh enough to cook with.

craft short.bone
A short length of bone is not fresh enough to cook with.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Akariel on December 18, 2015, 08:13:10 AM
Second thought:
Not a single bag, hamper, bin, box, trunk, chest, crate, sack etc in game has giving me the assess echo of it being suited to food storage.
Maybe I'll just make a character who has the sole goal of making one of these elusive bins.

We need to manually add these flags to items. If you find something that should realistically have the flag, IDEA it.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: LauraMars on December 18, 2015, 08:22:30 AM
...everything that is a material used in crafting seems to now be flagged with the negatives of spoiled food, making everything uncraftable.

I am sure that will get fixed that pretty fast.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Brytta Léofa on December 18, 2015, 10:06:42 AM
Quote from: nessalin
At the high end is dried-fruit, which will last for at least 9 RL days, up to 20 when indoors/darkness/preservation container.

Okay, I like the numbers on this now.

Kudos to ness & company for a cool new factor in game and for iterating so fast to tweak it.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: RogueGunslinger on December 18, 2015, 01:33:27 PM
Honestly the constant tweaks and checks Nessalin has put out for this the past week is kind of staggering. All around holidays too. Dude knows how to prioritize his time.

Thanks nessalin.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: The Silence of the Erdlus on December 18, 2015, 06:56:51 PM
The item 'an airtight food storage bin' probably ought to have a preservation flab, but undoubtedly someone got around to it. Ah, memories. You can't even get those outside a clan.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: The Silence of the Erdlus on December 18, 2015, 08:48:55 PM
Fresh bugs and one RL day old bugs cannot be cooked. I already bugged it.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: nauta on December 21, 2015, 10:46:21 AM
Killer work on the food spoilage code.  A few questions about future developments:

1. Are there plans to give us (or cooks) some ability to estimate the shelf life of a given object?  E.g., assess (or value) <item>: This looks like it might last five weeks out in the open.

2. I noticed that fats spoil (great!).  What about (in the future or even now?):

o untanned pelts/hides (I'd expect spoil rates to be high, but they still would soil unless treated)
o (musk) glands/organs (probably quicker than meats, might affect poison economy in the game)
o leaves (spoil rates would probably be high)
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Miko on December 21, 2015, 11:29:30 AM
If it doesn't already exist, I would love a flag that a food item/recipe could have that would make it last even less time than normal, like "easily spoiled." It would be very useful for certain food types! Thanks and these updates are awesome!
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Delirium on December 21, 2015, 12:08:11 PM
I'm okay with herbs and poisons not spoiling until a seriously revamped code is put in place.. the old system works okay but messing with it without gutting and revamping it seems the stuff of nightmares.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: solera on December 21, 2015, 01:01:43 PM
I would like herbs to be exempt from reality forever.  :(
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Delirium on December 21, 2015, 05:29:04 PM
Maybe eventually they become "dried" but they shouldn't just disappear. Dried/fresh herbs could have various benefits and drawbacks.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Akariel on December 21, 2015, 08:19:57 PM
Maybe eventually they become "dried" but they shouldn't just disappear. Dried/fresh herbs could have various benefits and drawbacks.

Floristry allows you to dry herbs, but it would be cool if we could keep some of the herbs effects on the dried variants... Hrm. I'm marking that down in my notepad.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Saellyn on December 21, 2015, 08:49:25 PM
I wasn't aware drying herbs removed the properties associated with them...? Huh.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Akariel on December 21, 2015, 10:01:20 PM
I wasn't aware drying herbs removed the properties associated with them...? Huh.

Apparently it doesn't! Gee, sometimes I'm such a newb.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Saellyn on December 21, 2015, 10:56:34 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=io-t-bUkfY8
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Armaddict on December 24, 2015, 05:24:06 PM
Maybe the next step of this is cures?  Not to the short lifespan of food, but some sort of lifespan, so that physicians have return customers, and weaker-type poisons have some usefulness?
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: RogueGunslinger on December 25, 2015, 01:42:45 PM
Maybe the next step of this is cures?  Not to the short lifespan of food, but some sort of lifespan, so that physicians have return customers, and weaker-type poisons have some usefulness?

I hated this the first glance, was okay with it the second, and am in love with it on the third.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: nauta on December 25, 2015, 01:44:46 PM
Yep, I love it too.  I'm down with pretty much everything ageing, with some things, like that steel dragon, just taking a very long time to spoil.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Akariel on December 25, 2015, 02:15:50 PM
I also would like to work on cures and plants. ;)
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Jihelu on December 25, 2015, 02:52:50 PM
Make the walls age.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Is Friday on December 25, 2015, 02:57:06 PM
I'd prefer not to have to spend my limited play times reoutfitting my character.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: BadSkeelz on December 25, 2015, 03:54:12 PM
I'd prefer not to have to spend my limited play times reoutfitting my character.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of gear wearing down arbitrarily. Armor already wears nicely through use.

It'd be kiiiind of cool if weapons could grow worn or chipped, with some being capable of being resharpened. A resharpening skill would be a good thing to give to warriors (just like they should all get at least some armor repair).
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: nauta on December 25, 2015, 04:28:22 PM
Wellll, it won't spoil while you are logged out, but I get the worry.  I'm thinking like on the scale of years.

What -would- be kind of cool, thinking about it, would be for Salarr quality armor and (maybe) Kadian quality clothing to last longer.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: hyzhenhok on December 27, 2015, 10:44:53 PM
Unlike with food, most players probably keep their cures on their character. That means you'd be creating a really perverse incentive for them to minimize play time--nothing going on? Well, I don't want my cures to spoil for no reason, so I better log out.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Refugee on December 28, 2015, 01:41:09 AM
Man. Unlike with food, when you need a cure, you need it immediately.  There's no warning time, no growling in your belly with time to go find something. 

I think I'm against this.

Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: BadSkeelz on December 28, 2015, 03:25:37 AM
No decay on cures.
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Large Hero on December 28, 2015, 04:38:10 AM
Cures shouldn't age. It can be hard enough to get them on certain characters.

I do think equipment should be damaged/worn down more frequently than it is, but only through use. Goes back to the game's themes of resource scarcity, etc. When you can have a piece of equipment last through years of active use, it's damaging to MY IMMERSION and I think gameplay as well
Title: Re: Food Aging -- Discussion Thread
Post by: Riev on December 28, 2015, 07:09:26 AM
Cures shouldn't be aging, but the herbs that make them should. Use them or lose them, finally have a reason for Bones to "have some fresh bimbal".

If cures are going to age/decay/etc, they should be transferred out of brew and made into the normalized crafting system. craft herb herb preservative into a tablet.