What organizations remain that can be joined, and by what types of characters?
Excluding tribals or noble houses that you would have to be born into.
Allanak
Aides - Human ('naki born)
AoD - Humans and Half-Giants
Byn - Takes 'em All
GMH - Generally no elves, mostly Crafter focused now
Guild - No idea
MMHs - vary by occupation and owner
Luirs
Kurac - maybe no elves, mostly crafter based
Kuraci Fist - I think no elves
MMHs - vary by occupation and owner
Morins
MMHs - vary by occupation and owner
Storm
Dust Runners - Not sure
MMHs - vary by occupation and owner
Gone
Atrium (for now)
Kadius/Salarri Hunters
When did they ditch the hunters of the GHM?
Quote from: Barsook on November 27, 2016, 01:19:37 PM
When did they ditch the hunters of the GHM?
Its a thing that recently occurred but there has been no announcement or mention of it.
Who needs hunters when we need content for mercenaries? Just hire the byn! ::)
Quote from: Riev on November 27, 2016, 01:30:30 PM
Quote from: Barsook on November 27, 2016, 01:19:37 PM
When did they ditch the hunters of the GHM?
Its a thing that recently occurred but there has been no announcement or mention of it.
whaaaaaaaaaaaaat
.. Jesus Christ
Kurac (at least the Fist, but presumably also Trade) hires elves.
With the hunter change, we aimed to change the game's conflict dynamic. In this particular case, we decided to slightly weaken the position of GMHs relative to player clans and independents as part of a push to promote competition (in this case, through supply and demand). The visible effects have been immediate and seem to be going as intended so far, and we look forward to seeing how it progresses.
What exactly is a MMH?
MMH stands for Minor Merchant House, and it is the top level that player clans can reach. There are many NPC Minor Merchant Houses as well. The acronym is usually used by players on the GDB to refer to player clans in general, not necessarily those at the top level.
MMH stands for Minor Merchant house, it takes IC years to get your player made clan to that point.
Edit: Damnit Nergal beat me to it.
Quote from: Nergal on November 27, 2016, 03:49:42 PM
With the hunter change, we aimed to change the game's conflict dynamic. In this particular case, we decided to slightly weaken the position of GMHs relative to player clans and independents as part of a push to promote competition (in this case, through supply and demand). The visible effects have been immediate and seem to be going as intended so far, and we look forward to seeing how it progresses.
That change sounds interesting and intriguing :)
Quote from: whitt on November 27, 2016, 01:15:31 PM
Morins
MMHs - vary by occupation and owner
This is incorrect. Morin's is
NOT allowed to have any MMH. There are no northern-based clans. The closest clan opportunities are in Luirs.
Morins is a Kadian place I believe. Like owned and ran by them sort of deal. Could be wrong though.
It would explain the no MMH in Morins.
Quote from: Nergal on November 27, 2016, 03:49:42 PM
With the hunter change, we aimed to change the game's conflict dynamic. In this particular case, we decided to slightly weaken the position of GMHs relative to player clans and independents as part of a push to promote competition (in this case, through supply and demand). The visible effects have been immediate and seem to be going as intended so far, and we look forward to seeing how it progresses.
That makes sense and is really needed for sure.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on November 27, 2016, 03:16:42 PM
Kurac (at least the Fist, but presumably also Trade) hires elves.
From here: http://armageddon.org/help/view/House%20Kurac
(http://armageddon.org/original/thumbnails/331.jpg)
She is an elf of the Fist (I think).
Also not mentioned here yet, House Oash in allanak is the only 'known' organization to hire Gemmed magickers. Should you want to try your hand at that.
Quote from: Barsook on November 27, 2016, 05:03:35 PM
Quote from: Nergal on November 27, 2016, 03:49:42 PM
With the hunter change, we aimed to change the game's conflict dynamic. In this particular case, we decided to slightly weaken the position of GMHs relative to player clans and independents as part of a push to promote competition (in this case, through supply and demand). The visible effects have been immediate and seem to be going as intended so far, and we look forward to seeing how it progresses.
That makes sense and is really needed for sure.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on November 27, 2016, 03:16:42 PM
Kurac (at least the Fist, but presumably also Trade) hires elves.
From here: http://armageddon.org/help/view/House%20Kurac
(http://armageddon.org/original/thumbnails/331.jpg)
She is an elf of the Fist (I think).
That's Shatuka, a half-elf. She definitely sided more with her elven heritage though.
Quote from: Hauwke on November 27, 2016, 04:50:53 PM
Morins is a Kadian place I believe. Like owned and ran by them sort of deal. Could be wrong though.
It would explain the no MMH in Morins.
Morin's is owned by Tuluk and is patrolled by Tuluki soldiers. However, Kadius does have a significant amount of property there.
That is not really an argument against an MMH in Morin's. Luirs is solely owned and operated by Kurac, and it has an MMH position.
What explains the lack of MMH in Morin's is that staff do not wish to provide that opportunity at this time.
That and Morins is a tiny logging village or whatever.
Morin's is too closely tied with Tuluk for a player clan to be based completely out of the village. It's certainly possible for player clans to have ties with Morin's, but I think being based there in any real sense would run contrary to the reasons that Tuluk was closed in the first place.
Quote from: Nergal on November 27, 2016, 03:49:42 PM
With the hunter change, we aimed to change the game's conflict dynamic. In this particular case, we decided to slightly weaken the position of GMHs relative to player clans and independents as part of a push to promote competition (in this case, through supply and demand). The visible effects have been immediate and seem to be going as intended so far, and we look forward to seeing how it progresses.
I approve :) The power wielded by the GMHs have been contentious for a while now. Hopefully this opens up more opportunities in the long term then they close. And if not, the decision can easily be reversed.
I'm slow.
Can someone tell me how this impacts the GMH's to promote conflict? Does the lack of hunters mean they have to outsource for materials, or...?
Edit: When I read it I assumed that it just meant no more hunters, and that we'd just have them being given the materials they needed as per 'the old days' of mastercrafting. If indies are now the only source of materials that are needed for crafting, then 'A-ha!' just happened.
Im guessing it does the following:
1. Makes them outsource materials.
2. Makes them ICly and OOCly weaker because they have less powerhouses ready and itching to wreck face.
3. Gives them actual reason to seek out and give indies a good way to earn money.
If anyone has anything else to add or subtract feel free.
Well. As far as outsourcing materials, is there a difference between an independent on retainer with a house and a house hunter?
(Sorry for the derail, this being the first I've heard of it, I'm overwhelmingly curious how it's set up.)
Sort of skeptical about the change since hunting/grebbing is one of those professions where you can get crazy rich without speaking to another PC, but I like it in theory. Staying cautiously optimistic.
Quote from: Armaddict on November 28, 2016, 02:06:19 AM
Well. As far as outsourcing materials, is there a difference between an independent on retainer with a house and a house hunter?
(Sorry for the derail, this being the first I've heard of it, I'm overwhelmingly curious how it's set up.)
I think the policy happened exactly 1 RL week ago. I think it's worthwhile contacting a GMH agent if you want IG details.
As to the OOC considerations. I thought about this a year or two. It solves the problem of two clans maybe being at half capacity most times. If a clan of hunters gets established and the clan limit is equal to one of the GMH clans you get a full clan with PCs potentially competing to join said clan. The reason I didn't pursue it as a player was in theory Salarri hunters and Kadian hunters could fight each other (a single hunting clan reduces PCs who conflict with each other).
That said, I do like these changes if it's designed to increase conflict between MMHs and GMHs. I am also happy to hear if it has increased conflict (not 100% sure how that has occurred, but I'm pretty happy to hear it has).
Quote from: Lutagar on November 28, 2016, 04:34:49 AMhunting/grebbing is one of those professions where you can get crazy rich without speaking to another PC
To what end? Seriously. Have you ever done this? And if so, how did it play out? How much did you enjoy it?
I've made tons of 'sid with a character one time, and it got me nowhere. If you do get tons of coin, you can buy awesome armor, you can (eventually when someone dies) get a nice apartment fully furnished. But then what? Thanks to you selling to NPCs you've amassed a fortune. Coin can no longer be used to motivate you. Alternatively, if you don't deal solely with NPCs (or even primarily with NPCs once your primary needs have been taken care of) then you will still get the awesome armour (eventually) but while you work towards it, your character will have lesser armor and can be motivated by coin that can then be used to gain the awesome armor the other PC got. You'll still eventually get a nice apartment. But people can pay you in coin, armor or favours that get you what you want.
I can understand doing the "filthy rich grebber" once or twice. But once you've done it, what's the point? Play a character and not a 'sid generating machine and you'll likely have more fun.
Stuff is going well with the ig power dynamic. Get in there chaps.
Good move on the resources/hunter stuff.
The more I think about it, the more I really like this change. It never really made much sense for Kadius or Kurac to have "hunters" at all (and Kurac doesn't have them). Salarr, well that kind of makes sense, since most of their merchandise is made with materials acquired through hunting. But skinning a chalton doesn't produce a length of silk, and 'craft horn into few" doesn't produce a diamond.
Armaddict: the difference is that one gets the benefits of codedly being able to come and go from the clan compound, get auto-paid by an NPC, auto-fed by the clan cook. The other does not, but can get paid immediately upon hire instead of after a year of recruitment. In addition, it's up to the roleplay, rather than NPC scripts, to decide whether or not the hunter gets the food, water, stable fees paid. Everything becomes more geared toward roleplay, while at the same time, the raw materials still come in (assuming the clan leaders do what's necessary to get it done).
It also would make more use of the Byn now, since hunters won't be doubling as wagon guards or scouts. And now, even low-ranking nobody clanned members will (hopefully) be able to secure a buddy outside the clan to take them out grebbing for rocks, chalton hides or herbs nearby (assuming this aspect of the rules becomes more relaxed).
The cynical side of me thinks that what's going to happen will be worse.
As a non-connected (read that as someone with no friends) indie I have almost no chance of selling anything to one of the agents of Kadius/Salarr. Because I never see them. When they need something they Way one of their friends in one of the previously established trading groups like Aldren or Darkmoon. Can I go work for one of those? Maybe. Again. I rarely see them and when I do they refer me to someone else I can never find.
When the change was announced I was optimistic but I think it's reinforcing the clique nature of Arm. As a nobody (no friends) I had a chance to go join one of the houses as a hunter. As some random indie I have very little chance to consistently sell to a GMH beyond unloading whatever junk is in my packs if I bump into one in the Gaj (which I don't see too many fancy merchant types going to).
Time will tell, but thus far all I've noticed is that I lost one avenue of possibility and haven't been able to gain another. It may be good for the game overall, but it hasn't been good for me personally.
Miradus, as a suggestion:
This idea also opens up the "middle man" role that I've suggested for years now. Rather than House Hunters doing the work, its indies or perhaps other MMH groups that come together to be the House Dasari of the indie world (raw resources).
If you aren't able to sell directly to Salarr or Kadius, maybe you can find someone who does. Who takes your shit, and re-sells it to Salarr/Kadius for a profit.
Yeah, I think this will take some time to really develop. Immediately after it seemed to go right back to the same cliques.
Unlike other fantasy games, you can't just go into the tavern and announce that you're looking for fellow adventurers. It takes longer to develop bonds in game and then those people just disappear and become new characters (or you do). I don't like the Byn much and other than tribals, there isn't any other shake-and-bake roles to step in where you'll have people to hang out with.
It's the thing I dislike most about Arm.
QuoteIt solves the problem of two clans maybe being at half capacity most times.
Eh.
You have to remember I don't regard this as a problem. I had far more fun in the game when there were 3 clans each with 2 people than 1 clan with six people. Those three groups were competing and came with naturally built in motivations against each other, even if not outright hostile, making for a lot more interesting of a game than six people hanging out in a bar waiting for staff or another group to give them something to do.
This seems to be another rendition of the 'remove House clans, now there are only nobles and one aide' move, which I still regard as damaging, not helpful, in the long term. Short term it seemed dandy, long term...well. We have a bunch of threads going on about meaningful activity because we've removed a lot of 'innate' activity that occurred just by having more clans and jobs and interests available.
Edit: Really, more restrictions in choice of a role playing game, especially one that is supposed to be handing reins over to players more, is counter-productive towards what we were doing. Even if a clan sits empty 50% of the time, I'd still rather see it be available just for the option of that lone player who decides they would like to play it, and represent it in the current state of the game/city/political scene.
Second edit: In those same lines...I was one of those who never really got Tuluk. It didn't fit. Every time I played there, everything was 'meh' and didn't make sense. I was glad when we closed it. But that 'Good move!' went away when we closed a bunch of Allanaki clans at the same time. Then it went away even more when we emphasized tribal play. We removed a long-standing, reliable conflict, removed small-scale internal city conflicts that we were then dependent on for a naturally driving force, then opened up a non-conflicting area to redisperse into. Even if hunters weren't the favorite area of the game, it was still players with their own ideas and motivations to increase the prevalence of their clan in the game-scene and all the activities that came with it, even if those were merely interventionist. I'm not sure if this will go the same way as the noble-clan-removal did in my experience of the game because it was a fundamentally different role, but I'm really not a fan of limiting choices for where I can go, particularly as a super-Allanak player.
Aaaand this should have gone in the other thread. I didn't see it until after I responded. I'll repair/fix things and make them more tailored to the other discussion after work.
What are the barriers (perceived or real) to starting your own group?
I remember I had a specific character who wanted to be a skimmer captain with his own crew. I talked in-game to dozens of people and tried to pay them to come with me and the answer was always no. Later I found out that the skimmer code is slightly more deadly than the climb code with the potential for insta-death entirely in the hands of constant RNG.
.
Quote from: perfecto on November 27, 2016, 05:19:06 PM
Also not mentioned here yet, House Oash in allanak is the only 'known' organization to hire Gemmed magickers. Should you want to try your hand at that.
while this is awesome for Oash, I just want to point out that it is a pretty huge power imbalance, especially considering the closure of the wyverns and other noble military wings.
.
Maybe the Byn should have their own gicker squad?
Only if they bunk in the latrines.
Quote from: Molten Heart on November 28, 2016, 01:46:39 PM
In the past House Tor has been known to occasionally hire krathi war mages.
If I remember right, this is no longer acceptable policy for the clan.
.
Removal of GMH hunters is an awesome move!! We'll definitely see more interaction as a result.
Definitely two thumbs up on this!
Quote from: Incognito on December 22, 2016, 05:40:21 AM
Removal of GMH hunters is an awesome move!! We'll definitely see more interaction as a result.
Definitely two thumbs up on this!
Its already been felt, and I feel its caused the MMH system to really find some competitive roles. No more "Well we hunt, but I guess we're just going to get killed or bought out by Salarr". Now its "We're going to make our bones being the best hunters/gatherers/miners/etc".
Though it gives the GMHs a bit less of a trusted source of "I need you to do this, and it might require some of your martial skills". Which PERSONALLY I'm okay with for certain reasons, but as a GMH member I might be feeling the squeeze and want to hire on "combat aides" instead.
I'd hoped for more competition and conflict in it. A lot of hunting groups have sprung up as a result but they don't really seem to compete.
I want to see something like the resource wars of colonial Africa, or a new gold rush, or the fur trapping trade.
The arbitrary nature of NPC spawns or "forage rock = get gem" means that there aren't really any shortages which would drive competition. The competition would need to be agreed upon OOC by the different hunting groups, who would then lose out to random independents who aren't in on the deal.
Quote from: Miradus on December 22, 2016, 10:05:39 AM
I'd hoped for more competition and conflict in it. A lot of hunting groups have sprung up as a result but they don't really seem to compete.
I want to see something like the resource wars of colonial Africa, or a new gold rush, or the fur trapping trade.
The arbitrary nature of NPC spawns or "forage rock = get gem" means that there aren't really any shortages which would drive competition. The competition would need to be agreed upon OOC by the different hunting groups, who would then lose out to random independents who aren't in on the deal.
I agree that competition is more 'virtual' and 'imaginary' than code-enforced, but there is still competition (and definitely in the game). I'll keep it hypothetical, but the two areas of conflict/competition that happen:
1. Hunting Grounds. You on ma turf! Neck arrow for you.
2. Trading Partners. You traded that with those assholes?
I do wish there were more Quirri effects in the game. So what's the Quirri effect? Well, its when you have a resource that spawns in an area of the game where one group claims ownership, which doesn't spawn at a shop (too often), is unique, and in demand. Hence, getting Quirri requires either (a) a risky trespass; or (b) negotiation with that group.
It's a neat place where coded supply runs up against in-game demand.
I know it may not seem immediately apparent that this is stirring up conflict, but it actually is. I've seen firsthand with two PC's multiple plots being started because of the clan hunter loss.
Quote from: nauta on December 22, 2016, 10:21:14 AM
2. Trading Partners. You traded that with those assholes?
I see this happen enough that I KNOW it happens, but not nearly as much as I'd prefer myself. I feel like if you start a resource trading company, and Salarr is your biggest client, you'll probably sell to them more often. But I can't see Salarr asking for exclusivity, that just kind of circumvents the change.
I'd like to see a lot more competition insofar as the CLIENTS of these groups. Make outrageous demands, ask for things they probably can't get. Fight other Houses that are getting the resources -you- deserve! Kadius doesn't need those scrabs shells as much as we do! I'm going to have a talk with that Overseer...
So I'm going at address a few things here from experience as a Salarri crafter/Merchant.
Crafters when they first start out need a LOT of raw items to work with. They need this to get skilled enough to MC items, which is really the biggest reason for crafters as(unless this has changed in the last 2-3 years), most of what people want is NOT craftable. Or if it is, you basically need to be a really high level to make it, much less make it without failing and ruining that hard to get material.
I can't see Salarr paying an Indi group 800 sid a month(the 300 salary AFTER a recruit year plus additional to cover the food that they don't have to provide them) but require them to bring in a certain number of hides. That's just not good business, and the crafters are going to sit there with nothing to craft and they can't personally go to indi hunters and get the materials they need because they don't have the authority to make deals on behalf of Salarr.
I understand they were trying to make indi's more playable, but.... I dunno. Maybe the system has changed a lot in the last 2-3 years and you can actually get stuff IG.
As to the "Quirri Effect", I've personally done this before as a merchant. Set up regular trades for hard to get items so our men wouldn't get shot going into the area they don't want us in. Worked out really well until the PCs I had deals with disappeared and I didn't have any other contacts and tried to set up other contacts for IG years.
Again, my experience here is 2-3 RL years out of date, but this is coming from a crafter/merchant of Salarr that was with them from the age of 15-38(I assumed force stored when Tuluk was closed 'cause I wasn't playing at that time, but still had the PC).
Easy, don't let your newbie crafters use the expensive stuff until you trust their abilities.
And honestly, GMH's should be looking for talented crafters, not people who are going to waste their resources.
Quote from: Delirium on December 22, 2016, 02:59:33 PM
Easy, don't let your newbie crafters use the expensive stuff until you trust their abilities.
And honestly, GMH's should be looking for talented crafters, not people who are going to waste their resources.
I was going to longwindedly say similar.
Recruit Crafters are ALWAYS difficult to get, because very few people care so much about crafting in the game that they want to craft one item every 30days, maybe, in a clan that doesn't have much internal struggle.
However, without Hunters around, Crafters can be delegated to acquiring resources, cleaning out stores so that they only have what is -useful- and not "but maybe someday" items. A crafter in a House can do so much, but with so many MC subguilds now, I think its easier NOT to be part of a clan. Your table is going to be just as quality as the Kadian table, codedly. =\
Quote from: Delirium on December 22, 2016, 02:59:33 PM
Easy, don't let your newbie crafters use the expensive stuff until you trust their abilities.
And honestly, GMH's should be looking for talented crafters, not people who are going to waste their resources.
Having them use the cheap stuff is still a lot of cheap stuff, though in my example Salarr crafter needs hides to practice tanning. Takes a lot of hides before they're getting good at it and don't ruin them. 50 tandu/gortok hides is till 50 hides that need to be collected.
Point me to one crafter that skilled up BEFORE going to a GMH. That was the only reason I, as a crafter, would ever have gone to a GHM. I get the resources to work at my craft, I get protection, I get food, I get a place to sleep, and I get(hopefully) PCs with knowledge to share with me. Without PC hunters in the clan, getting resources can be difficult.
I've been a PC merchant in Salarr without any active hunters and 1 or 2 crafters. Trying to get resources is HARD. They can't just go out and start hunting goudra and tandu. Sure, they can go forage for branches and stone, but that's about it. It shouldn't be hard for a GMH to get resources, and it -seems- like it is now. Again, speaking from past experience and maybe all those indi hunters are actually able to help out and get what is needed.
I dunno, maybe I'm the crazy player that LIKES sitting around an RPing crafting and making things and getting them to people and organizing the crafters hall and making sure we had the right supplies and making sure my hunters were properly outfitted. I loved the merchant role, even if it was more often than not a PC shop. :-D
Also, I don't know how long you think it takes to clean up some place, but I've knocked out an entire compound in 3-4 hours.
+1 Tortall
So... do you want resource scarcity or do you not want resource scarcity?
You can't have it both ways. ;)
Honestly, I would be shocked if there weren't enough PC resources to keep the GMH compounds fully stocked.
You have to actually keep inventory and work for it, now... which... you can do in your newly freed-up time.
I like the idea of trying to make indie hunters more valuable to pcs somehow.
I don't think that outsourcing is smart, cheaper, or makes particular sense. Largely for the reasons that other people who have a lot of experience as a pc crafter have put forth.
It's not like you paid hunter pcs at ALL during their first year. At all. And everything after that which they brought in belonged to the House. Even then, their pay compared to the materials needed on average, was more or less peanuts. You didn't have to pay extra to house them in barracks that were already there. And when most pc hunters were bringing in the food fed to everyone else in many cases, counting food as part of expenses doesn't even make sense. The only thing they cost the House is 5'x5' space basically. Until they have been on for a year, where even 2 diamonds brought in (which a max forage can easily net in a day) pays their entire salary for a pay period.
Paying people to bring them in doesn't make resources more scarce. It makes the portion of resources which Kadius or Salarr has more scarce. That is not the same as making resources more scarce.
Perhaps the people who were saying there was a problem with resource scarcity were not the same people who believe that merchant house hunters had a place. Or maybe they are, who knows? (shrugs)
All that has happened is another RP opportunity has been shut down, in my opinion. The hunters of the merchant houses may not have been as lauded as the Wyverns or Scorpions in people's memories, but they were valued and appreciated. And now they're crossed out on a list of roles to be played. SOME people may not have wanted to play them, but they were played. If it's as simple as people think to keep a compound stocked on outside resources, then I challenge people to apply for the sponsored role next time it pops up and give it a whirl. Make that sid and pay out of pocket for those hides/cloth/gems/whatever your people need and make it happen and then tell of your success. I may be looking at things from an outdated perspective, but I can't imagine they've changed much. Hunters were a treasure every bit as much as crafters.
As for hiring only experienced PC's, well. That would be a bit of a PC cultural shift and not bad to see. Generally, people join and grow and improve and weave their stories in the clans they are part of, that I have seen. My thought is, take mastercraft away from everyone but merchants and/or institute a level of quality that can only be achieved if one is part of a merchant house. THEN talk to outside hunters about the importance of keeping those houses supplied if they want their badass armor. Synergy. Encourage them to form groups and sponsor those groups outside the house. Back other's ventures who help you.
And if freed up time means empty warehouses, disgruntled crafters and unfulfilled orders...? I don't get that last statement.
Are the apartments on Merchant's Road going to have their leasing-restrictions looked at? I wager there's more apartments in there than there are actual GMH-employees in Allanak now.
Quote from: WithSprinkles on December 22, 2016, 05:02:42 PM... My thought is, take mastercraft away from everyone but merchants and/or institute a level of quality that can only be achieved if one is part of a merchant house.
I'm still sore the house hunter roles are gone but I am not sure that the answer is taking yet another thing away from the playerbase.
The game is not an efficient economic simulator. It was never designed for that, I think. Before I took away anything from the PC, I'd strip the NPC markets completely bare of loaded items. The only things you can buy are things that have been sold to that NPC. Let the economy be entirely player-driven except for the chargen shops.
I like economic sim games. A LOT. I'd like to see that side of Arm beefed up a little to catch up with the political and survival elements.
As a merchant, I enjoyed like 9k in the bank and still ran into the "what do I do with all this money" obstacle. I lacked any creative ideas that would have worked within the game engine (without massive amounts of storyteller attention).
Quote from: Miradus on December 22, 2016, 06:40:17 PM
As a merchant, I enjoyed like 9k in the bank and still ran into the "what do I do with all this money" obstacle. I lacked any creative ideas that would have worked within the game engine (without massive amounts of storyteller attention).
You haven't bribed enough templars and / or other PCs then. Money makes the world go round and drives plots. 8)
Quote from: Akaramu on December 22, 2016, 07:15:33 PM
Quote from: Miradus on December 22, 2016, 06:40:17 PM
As a merchant, I enjoyed like 9k in the bank and still ran into the "what do I do with all this money" obstacle. I lacked any creative ideas that would have worked within the game engine (without massive amounts of storyteller attention).
You haven't bribed enough templars and / or other PCs then. Money makes the world go round and drives plots. 8)
I was gonna say that it sounds like Templars, soldiers, and (other) criminals weren't doing their job.
I was based in Luir's. You'd be doing good if you could find someone to talk to in daytime hours, much less somebody who needed bribing/paying. :)
Less than money being a motivation, seems like most players just want to be part of something.
I also don't feel that a bribe to the authorities is a "plot". Paying kickbacks to the Arm or being forced to buy a merchant token is not a plot. Those are just sort of expected business things (particularly in Allanak).
I feel like a plot is paying/enticing other players to go do things on some longer term basis. Giving them a plot hook to go out and *do things*. Coins are just sort of an enticement for that.
As an independent, I felt it was hard to think of real reasons to do so.
.
Salarr as that.
Bribing a templar to harass (insert person you hate) starts a plot!
Bribing a (informed person) to tell you everything they know about X helps you start a related plot!
Paying people to investigate places you vaguely heard about starts plots!
It's not always about buying items you need.
Just wanted to post that the concept of "filthy rich grebber" made me laugh because I have never played nor seen this. Thanks to the 5 item limit, merchant wealth limits and the longer delay between reboots it will be even less likely that I will ever be a filthy rich grebber with a future character. Not to mention every new apartment costs more and more, and my "every few days" playtimes.
No, my hunters or grebbers will NOT be trading with merchant houses much. Unless they contract me to go out to purposefully get what they need, I will rarely ever have what they happen to want.
The GMH should post announcements on various appropriate grebber friendly IG message boards about what they want, honestly. Relying on person to person contact to inform indie grebbers what they could sell is going to lead to sandhoppers chirping all year round with very little indie to GMH trading.
Quote from: Harmless on December 23, 2016, 10:25:56 AM
The GMH should post announcements on various appropriate grebber friendly IG message boards about what they want, honestly. Relying on person to person contact to inform indie grebbers what they could sell is going to lead to sandhoppers chirping all year round with very little indie to GMH trading.
Wouldn't it be neat if each GMH had an NPC outside their compound who announces to would-be hunters what the GMH needs, along with the names of GMH PCs to sell to?
There are NPC merchants in Allanak that will sell you cheap raw materials for every merchant starting crafting skill except lumberjacking (obviously). You don't need hunters to greb that stuff for you, because you can just go haggle it down at the NPC shop. Mastering a crafting skill happens so quickly that you really shouldn't be using anything that required an expedition to acquire -at all- until you're maxed, not just mastered. If your PC superior is miffed at you for haggling from NPCs and selling the crap loot you make while skilling up, they're a damn fool (unless you aren't giving them a cut or whatever).
If you can't get rich grebbing, then you aren't playing a PC-type that has any business outside the gates. Even an assassin with a hunter-ish subclass can get ludicrously wealthy on greb, if you know what you're doing, because there is almost always a vacancy in the middle-top tier greb market niche, due to PC turnover. (I'm including basic skinning loot as "greb." If literally all you're doing is foraging, it might not be possible, unless you've got a class/subclass with a higher forage cap...but I don't think I've ever really put the "how much loot can I acquire strictly from foraging?" question to a hard test.)
Quote from: Synthesis on December 23, 2016, 11:14:09 AM
There are NPC merchants in Allanak that will sell you cheap raw materials for every merchant starting crafting skill except lumberjacking (obviously). You don't need hunters to greb that stuff for you, because you can just go haggle it down at the NPC shop. Mastering a crafting skill happens so quickly that you really shouldn't be using anything that required an expedition to acquire -at all- until you're maxed, not just mastered. If your PC superior is miffed at you for haggling from NPCs and selling the crap loot you make while skilling up, they're a damn fool (unless you aren't giving them a cut or whatever).
If you can't get rich grebbing, then you aren't playing a PC-type that has any business outside the gates. Even an assassin with a hunter-ish subclass can get ludicrously wealthy on greb, if you know what you're doing, because there is almost always a vacancy in the middle-top tier greb market niche, due to PC turnover. (I'm including basic skinning loot as "greb." If literally all you're doing is foraging, it might not be possible, unless you've got a class/subclass with a higher forage cap...but I don't think I've ever really put the "how much loot can I acquire strictly from foraging?" question to a hard test.)
+1. This pretty much sums it up nicely.
I am pretty sure the characters I play are capable of being rich, codedly, but I am not the type to minmax the grebbing and hunting game to the point that they become rich, plus I don't play often, and grinding coins has always been a boring and nearly anti-fun as has been suggested above. I don't want readers of this thread to get the idea that all grebbers are rich. The most I ever earned with a grebber was around 3 small at once after selling a huge number of various herbs I grebbed from the grasslands in the south, before merchants ran out of coin. Naturally nobody wanted to buy any of said herbs among the few players I asked and the only desired herb in my bag was one needed to make a certain uncommon cure tablet. Hunted goods are even harder to sell as I think there is exactly one shop in Nak that buys hunted raw goods and about 1 merchant in every major settlement, usually those merchants pay diddly (20-60 coins per piece).
These are with PCs with advanced to master skinning, ride, dsense, and fighting skills capable of taking out common critters like raptors or ox or scrabs, etc. So yeah, codedly capable but I don't grind to the point that I have ever been "filthy rich." Costs such as supplies, water, rent, and occasional purchases of gear make accumulating vast sums impossible for me when doing a long grebbing run once or twice a week at most.
Quote from: Synthesis on December 23, 2016, 11:14:09 AM... If literally all you're doing is foraging, it might not be possible, unless you've got a class/subclass with a higher forage cap...but I don't think I've ever really put the "how much loot can I acquire strictly from foraging?" question to a hard test.)
I had a grebber who could (and did) master foraging.
The problem is that everything available to master forage skill is also available to novice forage skill. The only thing the skill seems to do is determine whether or not you find something. When you do find something it appears to roll against the loot table for that room without regard to your actual skill. I'm guessing, I don't know how the code actually works, but grebbing alongside a journeyman grebber with my master grebber, he might still end up with more gems in his pocket based on how the RNG went.
It's far easier to get rich by just running through some areas and filling up your bag with flowers. Or to go chop down some trees.
The other side of the coin (ha) is that, if your OOC knowledge of the game is good enough to know what things sell for the best coin and where then your knowledge is also good enough to know how to fill your packs with water and food. You kind of got to go out of your way to really NEED coin.
Bear in mind there is a difference between the grebber/ranger who can travel to all the various outposts to trade and sell, and one who is limited to Allanak.
Mind, I haven't -tried- to play someone who only trades in Allanak, but my hunch is it will be a lot harder to get rich than in the north, where low PC population, coupled with lots of vendors yields pretty quick wealth.
I also don't have a lot to add, but I think it's a good discussion to have.
forage stones for ruby
Regardless on ORGANIZATIONS....
With so many fewer House Hunters, the GMHs that had internal apartments... those added in a bit extra for niceties that are now going to spread to the apartments in the only city that matters (be real).
I just hope that's being monitored.
Riev hates a derailed thread. :)
What I would like to do with an indie hunter is become known for bringing in ONE THING. I don't want to have to hunt down someone with a full bag and go, "Anything in here you want?" I want to be the guy who gets the duskhorn cock, or whatever, and always has it on hand.
Like the French fur trappers of the early Americas brought in beaver. They didn't come back with some wolf skulls and a handful of gems. They came back with beaver and there were people who knew to go set up camps and BUY beaver from them. (Usually paying some gunpowder, lead, tobacco and whiskey.)
That gets to be a hassle if you are the guy who specializes in say, marble. You can't exactly carry it around in large quantities.
Actually, WITH the hunters being dismissed, and some more leniency in the MMH ideals... you kind of can.
As a single person, being known as the Mad Marble Mason? Might be hard to have the quantities in stock, but as the Mad Marble Miner? People would know to come to you with orders. Thirty blocks? You'll have it in a week.
Storage is an issue, because of course it is. That's sortof intended.
Quote from: Riev on December 23, 2016, 01:28:54 PM
forage stones for ruby
This. You can forage for specific stones, and skill does factor in there, because specific things are harder to find.
Quote from: Akaramu on December 23, 2016, 01:58:00 PM
Quote from: Riev on December 23, 2016, 01:28:54 PM
forage stones for ruby
This. You can forage for specific stones, and skill does factor in there, because specific things are harder to find.
It doesn't work the way you think. You don't have a better chance of finding a ruby. What it does is discard anything that ISN'T a ruby so you don't clutter up your inventory.
Oh, right. I actually used to know this. :-[ Then I took a long break and now I'm a nub again.
I dunno. It seems like your forage skill influences more than your success rate. I've found things with rangers and <redacted> that I've never found with a warrior, even foraging in the same location.
And you don't have to be maxed out to get to mid-tier greb. If you're sitting at advanced-master in combat/weapon skills, the question isn't "can I kill a raptor?" It's "How many raptors can I take on at once before they even start hitting me?"
Quote from: Akaramu on December 23, 2016, 03:36:53 PM
Oh, right. I actually used to know this. :-[ Then I took a long break and now I'm a nub again.
It doesn't appear to be well known. I asked like 4 different helpers and got 4 different answers. Had to do some testing and pick what I thought might be the most likely theory based on what they said and what I saw.
Foraging is a lot of fun. It's kind of like an in-game lottery. :) But you can't particularly rely on it for fast or instant cash.
Quote from: Synthesis on December 23, 2016, 03:47:39 PM
I dunno. It seems like your forage skill influences more than your success rate. I've found things with rangers and <redacted> that I've never found with a warrior, even foraging in the same location.
And you don't have to be maxed out to get to mid-tier greb. If you're sitting at advanced-master in combat/weapon skills, the question isn't "can I kill a raptor?" It's "How many raptors can I take on at once before they even start hitting me?"
This always felt fairly obvious to me. Becaus my high skill forager d had issues getting simple rocks instead of diamonds.
This change is one of those types of changes I wish had happened years ago.
I always complained about Kadius/salarr being two sides same clan, offering roughly the same experience and that they should be merged. Now the routine hunter experience can be delegated indies and the cool rare hunter events can be given to the byn.
Would leave room in the clans to hire exceptional people to become guards/scouts/spies though, that way getting work with one of those clans become something cool again.
The lack of GMH hunters is kind of a bummer for GMH assassins and spies, because the way GMH assassins and spies have always got gud is by sparring with or hunting with their hunter (ranger or warrior) fellow employees. Now it's like...well...you can go git gud first, then join Kadius, or you can resign yourself to being terrible at combat forever.
Quote from: Synthesis on December 25, 2016, 02:27:14 AM
The lack of GMH hunters is kind of a bummer for GMH assassins and spies, because the way GMH assassins and spies have always got gud is by sparring with or hunting with their hunter (ranger or warrior) fellow employees. Now it's like...well...you can go git gud first, then join Kadius, or you can resign yourself to being terrible at combat forever.
Or you can join the Byn, the combat school for nearly every other clan in the game. I'm pretty sure it's not supposed to be like that. The Byn should want people who actually want to be mercs. What's the point if they leave to join (insert clan here) as soon as they start being remotely useful?
Another related thought: I really, really wish the Tor Academy (or a comparable institution, an 'Atrium for combatants') were open to those who either pay or are sponsored in by a noble.
Hey guys! New MMH idea. An independent, pay-to-enter combat school where it's okay to leave whenever you want, or when you stop paying.
I think a 'gym' would be a good idea. You'd pay a fee based on your apparent race and gem or lack of to enter, and there'd be two spar-okay rooms, with a third room just to rp lifting weights in. A bench to sit on perhaps. A couple of soldiers in that room as well, you could only leave through that room, so anyone who killed someone would get a wanted flag, and by the laws of common sense 'waiting out your timer' in the spar-okay rooms would make as much sense as shooting someone from the Gaj cookroom and then going up the stairs to wait out your crimflag.
I like the idea of a gym. Like, through the Tor Scorpions or the Borsail Wyverns. I think it'd be awesome!
What's interesting is that there's absolutely NOTHING stopping anyone from doing this right now in game.
Miradus is correct on this. Get it going.
I can't, for multiple reasons. Someone else though? *puppy eyes*
Quote from: Miradus on December 25, 2016, 03:54:18 PM
What's interesting is that there's absolutely NOTHING stopping anyone from doing this right now in game.
That may or may not be true. In the past, the Byn has threatened to brutally murder anyone who offers independent weapons training. I believed it was wrong-headed then, but it came from staff and may still be the official stance of the organization now. YMMV.
I think what no one is stopped from doing is forming their own sort of 'higher end' combat school, akin to Sujaal's in Tuluk. I do think, IIRC, the Byn doesn't independently train people who aren't in the Byn. So it's sort of a catch 22, if you don't want to join the Byn to git gud, you have to hunt. Or find other people to spar with on the rooftops or something.
Having another option (especially considering Tuluk is closed and consolidation happened) besides the Byn for combat training (now that the GMH hunting branches are closed) would be nice. Sometimes you just aren't playing a PC that wants to shovel shit and be a runner in the T'zai Byn.
Traditionally, staff has been very cautious about creating places and situations where people could spar. For example, there used to be open sparring/training in Tuluk in the Partisan's Arena, where any citizen could come and train with another. However, it was closed down due to abuse. Later on, the new staff-approved version was the Tribal Levy, where you could get training in exchange for a promise to come fight if ever needed. This was run by specific PCs who had been accorded appropriate rank and could oversee things. Sparring was only opened to people participating when one of them was there to run it.
Most of the higher-class combat opportunities (A'Jinn Academy in Tuluk and Tor Academy in Allanak, respectively), are things that have been closed. It should be noted that both were intended to be less about sparring (so less of a gym) and more of about combat tactics and philosophy. I believe the Atrium was offering some "self-defense" lessons as well, although is also currently closed.
I guess the trick with any sort of MMH combat training facility is making sure it was run responsibly, had variation in schedule (not all sparring all the time), and of course trying to find a way to not step on people's toes. There's also the matter of the target audience. The Byn trains their own, the militia trains their own, and so on. I suppose there could be a market in it for the hunter groups, maybe, as a result of the void recently opened up by GMH outsourcing. There's also something to be said for cross-clan training opportunities (for example if the militia has only a couple people, it can be hard to get good training).
Quote from: Reiloth on December 26, 2016, 02:27:04 PM
I think what no one is stopped from doing is forming their own sort of 'higher end' combat school, akin to Sujaal's in Tuluk. I do think, IIRC, the Byn doesn't independently train people who aren't in the Byn. So it's sort of a catch 22, if you don't want to join the Byn to git gud, you have to hunt. Or find other people to spar with on the rooftops or something.
A higher-end combat school could be in direct competition with the Tor Academy's virtual presence, or the Atrium's virtual presence (depending on how seriously they want to mark 'training aides for combat' as their own).
The general problem is that when something is closed, it not only shuts down the opportunities of participating in that direct group, it also continues to shut down similar opportunities, because virtually speaking, it's still there.
You might be able to make a mid-level combat training opportunity, though. But you'd still have to convince Tor/the Atrium that it wasn't high class enough to be a threat to them, and convince the Byn that it wasn't going to take away from their Runner pool. It would probably be doable with GMH support, connected with one of the hunter groups.
The Atrium has never been and will never be about self defense or fighting.
Just, no.
Also, I think the problem with the Partisan's Arena is that pretty much anyone could use it. There wasn't some 'Partisan Clan' you had to codedly be a part of. So a lot of people participating weren't even Partisan's of anyone, they were just there to spar and git gud.
So I think having membership narrows the scope and field, especially if the criteria for that membership is specific enough to send people to other organizations if they don't fit in.
I think not having something like this around leads people to do silly things to improve their skills -- Hunting creatures when they aren't a hunter, for example. Or arbitrarily coming up with reasons to train with random people, just because they're another PC. Or, compromising your PC concept in order to join the Byn.
Also yeah, I don't think the Atrium should offer 'self defense' classes. I imagine that was a PC run thing by a Host, because it doesn't really fit in with the ethos of the clan? It's supposed to be a training ground for Aides in the same way the Byn is a training ground for Mercenaries/Combat Roles.
Quote from: boog on December 26, 2016, 02:46:30 PM
The Atrium has never been and will never be about self defense or fighting.
Just, no.
The Atrium is about training aides to serve. I have been told that a part of the course of the lessons they offer is in self-defense, either for your standard squishy aide, or because of a rising interest in "Combat Aides". However, I have also heard of would-be aides who trained in the Byn because the Atrium would not have the expanse of combat lessons that they needed.
I have no direct experience of this, I just have to go off of what I have heard.
Also, I agree that closing an entity (unless it's actually closing) still creates a vacuum, as there can't be direct competition with those entities.
So, rather than have the Tor Academy shut down 'to the public' and still be around, it might be cool if Tor literally shut it down, due to lack of funding or some other reason. Leaves the door open for it to re-open down the road, but takes it off the virtual stage as well.
Unpopular opinion time.
What did the Atrium actually do? Not even trying to be snarky or condescending. What did the Atrium provide beyond an IC playpen for new pc's?
Same question for the Tor academy.
Quote from: Jingo on December 26, 2016, 03:02:08 PMWhat did the Atrium actually do? Not even trying to be snarky or condescending. What did the Atrium provide beyond an IC playpen for new pc's?
I've never successfully done anything with the Atrium, so anything I say should be taken with a very large grain of salt.
That said, my understanding is that the Atrium is supposed to be an area for social and high-class commoner PCs to learn how to serve and interact with the world. They provide lessons on everything from etiquette, to massage, to history, to cooking, and more. It's supposed to be a mark of distinction to have an aide who has graduated the Atrium. Basically, this is an opportunity for social PCs to have their own clan and interact. I think that has a lot of value.
However, I believe that there came a number of challenges related to this. First of all, that lessons should be engaging, interesting, and also useful. I would imagine that etiquette lessons, for example, would not appeal to everyone and could be difficult to make interesting. Further, if you learn all of this etiquette for how things are supposed to be done and then none of the nobles make it matter for anything, then I imagine it feels fairly useless. I would imagine that you would need the right social conditions for things to really be relevant.
QuoteSame question for the Tor academy.
The Tor Academy was all about advanced combat and strategy training, and was also intended to revolve around lessons (though when I attended it, back when Tor had Scorpions, it seemed primarily sparring-focused to me). For someone who wants to play an elite commoner combat PC who knows high-level combat planning, this was an ideal clan. I personally think it's rather fascinating.
I think people tend to value things less that have no definitive coded gain, however. If you take sparring out of the Academy, then it becomes pure RP. I personally find that very interesting, but I don't think everyone does.
Quote from: Jingo on December 26, 2016, 03:02:08 PM
Unpopular opinion time.
What did the Atrium actually do? Not even trying to be snarky or condescending. What did the Atrium provide beyond an IC playpen for new pc's?
Same question for the Tor academy.
The Atrium -- It allowed people to cut their teeth, especially newbies, on the political scene in Allanak. It provided an environment for them to be around Nobles and Aides that were their group of peers, similar to a 'group of peers' in University. It allowed them to make mistakes without them being fatal, especially for newbies -- Knowing when to bow, how to recognize Nobles, and the nuance of Zalanthan Politics that a complete newbie to the game won't learn from documentation. It also sort of provided a 'Poet's Circle' atmosphere for people who aren't all into fart jokes and low-class sort of RP in Allanak, in essence, for the 'Tuluki Player' to get their rocks off in Allanak. I enjoyed it while it was around.
Where it began to get weird, IMHO, was when it turned into a social club for Nobles. It really shouldn't have gotten to the point it did, and the Arboretum should have been (and is now) the sort of 'Members Only' club for Nobility. The vagueness of where House Terash stood/stands when it comes to hierarchy and Estate access also didn't seem really spelled out. But from what I understand, it's being sort of dismantled/reassessed/redocumentified, which I take it is easier when it's closed and doesn't have active players in it. All of the documentation revamps in the last 5 or so years have been welcomed and exquisite, so i'm looking forward to what this brings to the Atrium stepping forward.
Tor Academy, a sort of military elite club to discuss military politics and strategy, and also allow 'high end' Commoners and Nobles to spar each other occasionally. I always liked it when it was around. I'm sure it had it's slew of problems, but all of my interactions with it were positive.
I suppose as a jaded vet I don't see a whole lot of use in a school for aides.
I never thought any of the social mores were hard to pick up on and I've never seen the Atrium pin as much more than a merit badge that could be skipped altogether.
I like the social club idea. Not as a club for nobles but more of a social club for aides. The kind of place where they could trade favors on neutral territory without being under the watchful eye of their house.
Quote from: Jingo on December 27, 2016, 01:00:06 AM
I suppose as a jaded vet I don't see a whole lot of use in a school for aides.
I never thought any of the social mores were hard to pick up on and I've never seen the Atrium pin as much more than a merit badge that could be skipped altogether.
Did you know that at a fancy dinner, the guests are always to be served their food and drink before the host is?
I sure didn't, but the Allanaki Senior nobility sure did.
How many PC-level nobles are aware of the difference and would know enough to scornfully comment on it? Or to take it as an intentional slight? No idea. However, if you look at a high-class situation, there are opportunities for little details like that to matter, if people want them to.
QuoteI like the social club idea. Not as a club for nobles but more of a social club for aides. The kind of place where they could trade favors on neutral territory without being under the watchful eye of their house.
I think an aide's club is not just under the eyes of your House, but also every other House, because every other House would have aides there (if only virtually). There's also no reason that one of the three taverns that caters to the higher class population couldn't be this.
QuoteQuote from: Taven on December 27, 2016, 01:28:47 AM
Quote from: Jingo on December 27, 2016, 01:00:06 AM
I suppose as a jaded vet I don't see a whole lot of use in a school for aides.
I never thought any of the social mores were hard to pick up on and I've never seen the Atrium pin as much more than a merit badge that could be skipped altogether.
Did you know that at a fancy dinner, the guests are always to be served their food and drink before the host is?
I sure didn't, but the Allanaki Senior nobility sure did.
How many PC-level nobles are aware of the difference and would know enough to scornfully comment on it? Or to take it as an intentional slight? No idea. However, if you look at a high-class situation, there are opportunities for little details like that to matter, if people want them to.
I've seen the rules change on this very subject at least twice. And I've seen new rules added and other rules forgotten. I've seen them followed to a T by some players and willfully ignored by others.
I don't think the rules for serving tea are that significant. At most they're a wrinkle players like to add to the game. We can survive without them.
QuoteQuoteI like the social club idea. Not as a club for nobles but more of a social club for aides. The kind of place where they could trade favors on neutral territory without being under the watchful eye of their house.
I think an aide's club is not just under the eyes of your House, but also every other House, because every other House would have aides there (if only virtually). There's also no reason that one of the three taverns that caters to the higher class population couldn't be this.
Think about the room for conflict that opens up here. A noble could become a client of the Atrium Union with all the benefits and strings attached. Or they could opt out and risk making some political enemies of some influence. Individual aides could opt in or out. If they opt in and break "the code of silence" they could become marked for death. Aides would also need to juggle the needs of the union and the needs of their masters.
I vaguely remember playing in the Atrium twice, but I only recall details of the more recent instance where I developed the BEST FRIENDSHIPS OF ANY PC EVER in that clan. In my honest opinion, it's a fabulous place for future political players to mingle and develop a history with one another. Those relationships (good or bad) will make Allanak's political landscape all the more interesting after the students graduate from the Atrium.
I never played in the Atrium, but two comments on it:
1) I think the little decorum flavor is one of the best things about the social in Armageddon, and certainly if you want to look for a way to have 'conflict' that doesn't involve a finger on the kill button, mean girls style RP backed by more than just ego (that is, backed by cultural traditions) is definitely a great thing. That said, I would like this spelled out in the documentation rather than as lore that people discover IG -- perhaps documentation for the noble/GMH clans at least -- I remember Salarr used to have 'etiquette' days built into their schedule. This levels the playing field, creates an objective backdrop for the subtle insults that can come about through setting the table wrong, and allows everyone to play along. Nothing more awkward than a biting insult that is completely missed by the insulted.
2) In Tuluk at its twilight, the aides got together once every 2 RL weeks for tea. No nobles invited. It was a good chance to plan RPTs and catch up on gossip, etc. I liked that it was PC driven and I liked that it took place in a common place so people could eavesdrop (although, heheh, Tuluk!) From an outsiders perspective, I didn't like how the Atrium drew PCs out of the common population -- the Ginka would be a prefect spot for such, or even Red's.
I mean, shouldn't this kind of documentation be made available to nobles in the first place? What use is the Atrium really if some aide ends up more educated than their employer?
I do agree about the Atrium seeming to turn into its own universe a lot though. For people who supposedly would need to mediate between the nobility and commoners a lot, aides don't seem like they do very much in public.
Quote from: Jingo on December 27, 2016, 04:38:57 AMThink about the room for conflict that opens up here. A noble could become a client of the Atrium Union with all the benefits and strings attached. Or they could opt out and risk making some political enemies of some influence. Individual aides could opt in or out. If they opt in and break "the code of silence" they could become marked for death. Aides would also need to juggle the needs of the union and the needs of their masters.
So you sort of want the Bardic Circle, only instead of being about performance culture, you want it to be about politics. That works in Tuluk, because the Circle is the keeper of culture, and well-ingrained in society through a long history.
I'm not sure what reason Allanak would have for allowing an organization of commoners to get so strong as to be able to have benefits and strings attached with being their client or not. I'm also not sure why an Allanaki noble would want to hire someone with obvious ties to another organization, and an obvious conflict of interest.
It's not that the idea isn't somewhat interesting, it's just that I think finding an IC basis for it would be something of a stretch.
In the Middle Ages, the nobility exerted a lot of downward pressure on the merchant class to keep them from rising "above their station". In little, petty-seeming things sometimes it could be seen.
Think of the breaking of the Hanseatic League in and around Lubeck. The guild monopolies caused them to grow in power and take more and more rights, cutting into the power of the nobility.
While Zalanthas isn't modeled on the Middle Ages by any stretch, I think people are still people and a lot of that power struggle would transfer. I'd love to see it represented more in-game.
Part of the reason behind the merchants rising in power at expense of nobility was wealth, talent, and influence. In Armageddon there is a glass ceiling.
A fat rich merchant says, "From the very youth I understood one thing. Wealth is Power!"
A black robe mentions, observing the fat rich merchant slowly disintegrate in thin air, "Over my lifetime. I too have realized one thing. Power is Power."
stolen from game of thrones:P.
I always thought the 'silk' pressure in Allanak was exactly that. The 'Better People' deciding whether or not you could wear silk, and their opinions could change depending on their whims.
Because really, Merchants could probably outspend a Noble. But one thing is certain -- No matter how hard a Merchant tries, they will never be a Noble. Nobles like making that clear.
Quote from: Taven on December 27, 2016, 09:20:03 PM
Quote from: Jingo on December 27, 2016, 04:38:57 AMThink about the room for conflict that opens up here. A noble could become a client of the Atrium Union with all the benefits and strings attached. Or they could opt out and risk making some political enemies of some influence. Individual aides could opt in or out. If they opt in and break "the code of silence" they could become marked for death. Aides would also need to juggle the needs of the union and the needs of their masters.
So you sort of want the Bardic Circle, only instead of being about performance culture, you want it to be about politics. That works in Tuluk, because the Circle is the keeper of culture, and well-ingrained in society through a long history.
I'm not sure what reason Allanak would have for allowing an organization of commoners to get so strong as to be able to have benefits and strings attached with being their client or not. I'm also not sure why an Allanaki noble would want to hire someone with obvious ties to another organization, and an obvious conflict of interest.
It's not that the idea isn't somewhat interesting, it's just that I think finding an IC basis for it would be something of a stretch.
The how and the why really isn't that important. We could come up with any reason why something like this could happen.
I can see an alliance of senior servants coming to an agreement that suits them and protects them to some degree from the whims of their masters. And perhaps they gain the support of a red robe for some reason or another.
Done ezpz
Quote from: Patuk on December 27, 2016, 10:06:52 AM
For people who supposedly would need to mediate between the nobility and commoners a lot, aides don't seem like they do very much in public.
I always thought they were just busy waying and keeping messages memorized all the time, which is one of the things that turns me off to the role.
Quote from: Jingo on December 28, 2016, 12:38:05 AM
And perhaps they gain the support of a red robe for some reason or another.
Done ezpz
stola rubra ex machina
People are making hunting groups right, to fill the gap the House hunters left behind?
Make one that does low-class armors/weapons or low-class jewelry/clothing.
And then start upping your class when you are big enough and cutting into a House's profits.
Now that I've said it I'm thinking half of your people are going to just up and vanish or even join the enemy but if you get some of them loyal you could do what amount to a tiny commoner's mind as damage.
Honestly, I myself have had a few ideas for a couple MMH's but the thing is I dont have the drive to icly seek it all out. Thats the single issue with it. Ideas ranging from the mercenary one all the way through to a very guild like one. In varying degrees of legality of course. The ideas are there but I lack the drive to do it in its entirety at this point, maybe when I am older and can keep focused on something for longer than a week. Longer living pcs lately has helped I guess.
Quote from: Hauwke on December 28, 2016, 04:22:45 AM
Honestly, I myself have had a few ideas for a couple MMH's but the thing is I dont have the drive to icly seek it all out. Thats the single issue with it. Ideas ranging from the mercenary one all the way through to a very guild like one. In varying degrees of legality of course. The ideas are there but I lack the drive to do it in its entirety at this point, maybe when I am older and can keep focused on something for longer than a week. Longer living pcs lately has helped I guess.
The character who had a vision to start a mercenary company to compete with the Byn but died a week in is STILL more interesting than the character with no vision who dies a week in. And your IC actions during that first week will have ripple effect consequences on the game world that outlast your character.
Just do it. :)
Quote from: Miradus on December 28, 2016, 10:11:11 AM
Quote from: Hauwke on December 28, 2016, 04:22:45 AM
Honestly, I myself have had a few ideas for a couple MMH's but the thing is I dont have the drive to icly seek it all out. Thats the single issue with it. Ideas ranging from the mercenary one all the way through to a very guild like one. In varying degrees of legality of course. The ideas are there but I lack the drive to do it in its entirety at this point, maybe when I am older and can keep focused on something for longer than a week. Longer living pcs lately has helped I guess.
The character who had a vision to start a mercenary company to compete with the Byn but died a week in is STILL more interesting than the character with no vision who dies a week in. And your IC actions during that first week will have ripple effect consequences on the game world that outlast your character.
Just do it. :)
I still have liked the small mercenary group upstarts I've seen in game. Where the Byn is SUPPOSED to be "coin above all", they have turned into a very politically savvy group, being careful what contracts they DO take. Especially in Allanak, because while in Tuluk few would blame the tool, 'Nakkis will break the tool out of spite.
I want to see a "real" mercenary group take hold. Not "raiders" by any means, but people who get paid a lot of coin from one group, to assault the assets of another group. Byn would NEVER take coin to assault a Salarri caravan, because they "need Salarr support". An indie group does not.
Lol, an indie group attacking a GMH caravan might as well commit suicide. Not saying that's a good thing but that's the reality of the documented gameworld. #lowertheglassceiling2017
Quote from: Delirium on December 28, 2016, 11:45:47 AM
Lol, an indie group attacking a GMH caravan might as well commit suicide. Not saying that's a good thing but that's the reality of the documented gameworld. #lowertheglassceiling2017
Codedly it would not be too difficult. You'd certainly increase the costs for any further security for the caravans, which is reason enough to do it.
The problem is the repercussions. Where does the mercenary band hold up to lick their wounds? Where do they sell their loot? Where do they hang out waiting for their NEXT contract? Red Storm is the only place I can think of and there's still the likelihood of getting stomped there unless you really make nice-nice with the Sandlord and give him a cut of the booty.
Its actually codedly stupid, too, with locked doors and !sentinel and such. Even all that aside, and WITH staff intervention to make all sides represented properly...
You can't even hide in Storm because they got people there too. Everything in the game is too big to fail.
#occupyZalanthas2017
Quote from: Riev on December 28, 2016, 10:18:31 AM
I want to see a "real" mercenary group take hold. Not "raiders" by any means, but people who get paid a lot of coin from one group, to assault the assets of another group. Byn would NEVER take coin to assault a Salarri caravan, because they "need Salarr support". An indie group does not.
This makes me think about some things.
And now I'm sidetracked and thinking.
Hmm.
Quote from: bardlyone on December 28, 2016, 02:41:03 PM
Quote from: Riev on December 28, 2016, 10:18:31 AM
I want to see a "real" mercenary group take hold. Not "raiders" by any means, but people who get paid a lot of coin from one group, to assault the assets of another group. Byn would NEVER take coin to assault a Salarri caravan, because they "need Salarr support". An indie group does not.
This makes me think about some things.
And now I'm sidetracked and thinking.
Hmm.
It may be a more modern-mercenary way of thinking, but I'd suspect a "Black Ops" Mercenary Group would do well in Zalanthas. Paid to take out wagons, caravans, break into estates, kill gate guards, and what have you.
Its all stuff Byn COULD do, but has become in itself a group that ISN'T independent and requires far too much coin for simple things, to cover political losses.
Didn't we have a thread juuust last week where LoD noted some of his people held up a noble? I'll grant that apparently, a number of them were muls, which says to me their power level was insane, but.. I'd like to believe this'd at least be codedly very possible.
These days the Byn's welfare is too dependent on being nice to Allanak. Like they did at Ten Serak, they can't be bought out by the city-state that offered them a higher price and then go hide there for a while after their contract is over. (I'm pretty sure that's what happened, anyway. I sure as hell didn't see any bynners on the other side.)
While I see this as a problem, its origins are IC and its an excellent opportunity for anti-Allanak or neutral mercenaries to band together, base themselves out of Storm, survive and train through hunting and be ready for contracts that may or may not be considered treasonous, and--- this is a selling point--- will be hush-hush. You sure as hell couldn't buy that from the Byn.
Quote from: Cind on December 28, 2016, 03:35:17 PM
These days the Byn's welfare is too dependent on being nice to Allanak. Like they did at Ten Serak, they can't be bought out by the city-state that offered them a higher price and then go hide there for a while after their contract is over. (I'm pretty sure that's what happened, anyway. I sure as hell didn't see any bynners on the other side.)
While I see this as a problem, its origins are IC and its an excellent opportunity for anti-Allanak or neutral mercenaries to band together, base themselves out of Storm, survive and train through hunting and be ready for contracts that may or may not be considered treasonous, and--- this is a selling point--- will be hush-hush. You sure as hell couldn't buy that from the Byn.
Super cool idea.
Why in the heck is the forum so full of these ideas but I hardly ever see it in game? Am I just not in-the-know or what?
Quote from: Patuk on December 28, 2016, 03:27:57 PM
Didn't we have a thread juuust last week where LoD noted some of his people held up a noble? I'll grant that apparently, a number of them were muls, which says to me their power level was insane, but.. I'd like to believe this'd at least be codedly very possible.
They had a hideout that wasn't based in any of the cities, so they could get away with it... for a while.
Allanak eventually ROFLstomped them.
Weirdly, I feel like if the Byn's home base was in Luir's rather than Allanak, it would sort of feed into the neutrality thing.
Quote from: Reiloth on December 28, 2016, 03:42:57 PM
Weirdly, I feel like if the Byn's home base was in Luir's rather than Allanak, it would sort of feed into the neutrality thing.
Yeah and give some accessibility to both sides.
I like Luir's. It's not as seedy as Red Storm (downside) but it occasionally has people (upside).
There's a secondary "base" but its hardly used and if the entire 300-man Company had to re-locate, something went TERRIBLY wrong. Usually they'd just off the Sergeant that made the mistake in capitulation.
As to why we have great ideas, but they aren't in game? Mundane Mercenaries that are CAPABLE of doing what is being suggested take at least 10-15days played in their respective skillsets to be considered usable. That's a lot of time and energy, going into a character that you KNOW will have a short life after making these decisions.
Staff assistance/intervention/whatever you want to call it is almost NECESSARY to do much of this as well. Not just for bases, or hideouts, or what have you, but to have the world come alive and provide opportunity. Caravans don't exist in our sphere of influence. Wagons hardly ride out, and when they do, code makes them nearly unassailable without assistance.
I really don't want to beat a dead horse here but staff enjoy supporting cool plots that enrich the game, in general.
The clanned hunter thing was a good move for the game. Would make it lonely for clanned merchants though but the hunters werent around much anyway.
Outside a clan the only sparring options for people are spar in an apartment (assuming its big enough you can RP getting away with it. Don't expect karma sort of thing) or spar in a warehouse. Sparring outside, at night or in alleys is another option I guess.
I always felt the benefits of an open sparring arena in a game with a shrinking population was beneficial for all clans. It allowed people to train/interact with each other across the clans. It made sparring more enjoyable and increased interaction for all (since people wouldn't be hiding in their barracks all day). This is probably why there was an attempt to revive it a bit with levies.
A place that is open for just couple hours IC hours day, that people need to pay for to get in (yay money sinks) would probably be nice to have. Just boot everyone out of the room after the time limit or just turn on and off the crim-code like night and day, and that should be enough to stop any 'abuse'.
Quote from: Dresan on December 30, 2016, 03:52:30 AM
Outside a clan the only sparring options for people are spar in an apartment (assuming its big enough you can RP getting away with it. Don't expect karma sort of thing) or spar in a warehouse. Sparring outside, at night or in alleys is another option I guess.
Using foolish places to spar makes the game way the heck more interesting. The only accessible place I haven't sparred yet is openly on the city streets, but it's on my bucket list.
Open sparring was attempted in the past, but with newbies/people who don't understand how to spar/people legitimately wanting to kill people without crim code, I think staff decided it was too much oversight to basically always be watching these very public !crime zones.
If my character wasn't... where my character is at, I know of some great places where this kind of stuff could happen. "Sparring" happens in clans because of scheduling, numbers of interested PCs, and access. Sparring on the rooftops, when not in a clan, always feels twinky. ALways.
Quote from: Riev on December 30, 2016, 06:05:41 PM
Open sparring was attempted in the past, but with newbies/people who don't understand how to spar/people legitimately wanting to kill people without crim code, I think staff decided it was too much oversight to basically always be watching these very public !crime zones.
If my character wasn't... where my character is at, I know of some great places where this kind of stuff could happen. "Sparring" happens in clans because of scheduling, numbers of interested PCs, and access. Sparring on the rooftops, when not in a clan, always feels twinky. ALways.
If you see me sparring somewhere outside of a clan's circle, it's because sparring is FUN, not twinky.
There's a bazillion "safe" places to spar out in the wilds. Are you safe from someone else walking up on you and giving you a whack while you are already low from sparring? No. But you shouldn't be. And I doubt you would be in a "public" sparring area either. Given the choice, I'd rather say to a friend, "Hey, let's whip out the wooden daggers and train a bit while our beetles rest up" than go to a public sparring area and hope someone is there. Partly because I distrust the concept, partly because I don't think they really fit the city theme, and partly because I wouldn't want strangers knowing how codedly powerful I am (or I'm not).
Quote from: Miradus on December 30, 2016, 06:10:49 PM
and partly because I wouldn't want strangers knowing how codedly powerful I am (or I'm not).
For years, all I've wanted is some sort of "change effort <minimal, average, maximum>" that would affect our skills, abilities, and timer fails respectively. So you can set a minimal effort in sparring, or if you want to APPEAR to be terrible, but if you set maximum effort there's like a 60% increase in your abilities.
I too, dislike other people knowing just how strong I am. BECAUSE I'M ONLY AT JOURNEYMAN, GUISE.
Quote from: Riev on December 30, 2016, 07:34:23 PM
Quote from: Miradus on December 30, 2016, 06:10:49 PM
and partly because I wouldn't want strangers knowing how codedly powerful I am (or I'm not).
For years, all I've wanted is some sort of "change effort <minimal, average, maximum>" that would affect our skills, abilities, and timer fails respectively. So you can set a minimal effort in sparring, or if you want to APPEAR to be terrible, but if you set maximum effort there's like a 60% increase in your abilities.
I too, dislike other people knowing just how strong I am. BECAUSE I'M ONLY AT JOURNEYMAN, GUISE.
I don't remember which games they were but I used to play on a couple that had adjustable combat percentage. Basically -
whatever YOUR personal best at offense is, compared with YOUR personal worst at defense, would be 100% offense, 0% defense.
You could adjust that, so that your current offensive is only 90% of your personal best, and your defense is now at 10% better than your personal worst.
Obviously everything is numeric behind the curtain, so just pretend that a raw out of chargen's raw offense is valued at the number 60, and the raw defense of the same noob is 2.
So he'd be 60/2 if he was in full offensive mode. He'd be 2/60 in full defensive mode. He could switch anywhere between the two, as long as the total of offense + defense = max_offense.
I just wanted to toss a couple of sids..
Hopefully this road leads to more player created clans. If some of those clans can have a holding or two, then there can be many more roles avaliable. I always disliked merchant house hunters. They can hire a bodyguard or two, though.
Quote from: Lizzie on December 30, 2016, 08:20:35 PM
Quote from: Riev on December 30, 2016, 07:34:23 PM
Quote from: Miradus on December 30, 2016, 06:10:49 PM
and partly because I wouldn't want strangers knowing how codedly powerful I am (or I'm not).
For years, all I've wanted is some sort of "change effort <minimal, average, maximum>" that would affect our skills, abilities, and timer fails respectively. So you can set a minimal effort in sparring, or if you want to APPEAR to be terrible, but if you set maximum effort there's like a 60% increase in your abilities.
I too, dislike other people knowing just how strong I am. BECAUSE I'M ONLY AT JOURNEYMAN, GUISE.
I don't remember which games they were but I used to play on a couple that had adjustable combat percentage. Basically -
whatever YOUR personal best at offense is, compared with YOUR personal worst at defense, would be 100% offense, 0% defense.
You could adjust that, so that your current offensive is only 90% of your personal best, and your defense is now at 10% better than your personal worst.
Obviously everything is numeric behind the curtain, so just pretend that a raw out of chargen's raw offense is valued at the number 60, and the raw defense of the same noob is 2.
So he'd be 60/2 if he was in full offensive mode. He'd be 2/60 in full defensive mode. He could switch anywhere between the two, as long as the total of offense + defense = max_offense.
I think this would be neat, although if you're focusing on appearing bad, I don't think you should be gaining skill ability for that. In my opinion, to really get better at whatever you're doing, you should have to give it your all.
That doesn't mean it wouldn't be a useful tool for throwing people off, though. Or for training, when you don't want to cause
too much damage to your sparring partner. Or if you just don't like whoever it is you're working for and don't want to give a full effort. I feel like there's a lot of potential uses.
Quote from: Riev on December 30, 2016, 06:05:41 PM
Open sparring was attempted in the past, but with newbies/people who don't understand how to spar/people legitimately wanting to kill people without crim code, I think staff decided it was too much oversight to basically always be watching these very public !crime zones.
Here's an idea for a code addition!
Challenge code.
You challenge (person) to a duel in a location where crimcode is in effect, but duels are allowed. If that person accepts, the two of you can then spar for a limited amount of time - like, half a day? Without triggering crimcode. Bystanders will know that a duel is going on and not alert the authorities, UNLESS someone dies. If that happens, crimcode triggers as usual.
Wouldn't that be cool?
To avoid abuse, we could limit this code to one location (such as a public sparring hall) where duels are allowed. Templars probably wouldn't want random commoners sparring on Caravan Road and disrupting traffic.
Let it be known that I hate the duel code in most MMORPGs.
Like, bro, I'm a gimpy level 15 holy priest but you're gonna sit here at level 80 as a blood death knight and be like, 'lol c'mon bruh, aren't u twinked?'
I dunno. I think if properly RPed and in a large enough private room, I think sparring alone is fine. There are work arounds in game. You just gotta ... work around it.
Quote from: boog on December 31, 2016, 03:33:16 PM
I dunno. I think if properly RPed and in a large enough private room, I think sparring alone is fine. There are work arounds in game. You just gotta ... work around it.
Yeah, but...
Quote from: Riev on December 30, 2016, 06:05:41 PM
Open sparring was attempted in the past, but with newbies/people who don't understand how to spar/people legitimately wanting to kill people without crim code, I think staff decided it was too much oversight to basically always be watching these very public !crime zones.
We're talking about a 'combat school' thingy in Allanak where you'd pay to enter. I can see how it could be abused without constant staff supervision (for PKing without crimflag). A challenge code would prevent abuse.
Duels that last half a day aren't duels anymore. And let's be honest, this "duel code" wouldn't be used for duel'ing, they'd be used constantly by the same people just to train.
Quote from: Malken on December 31, 2016, 04:37:17 PM
Duels that last half a day aren't duels anymore. And let's be honest, this "duel code" wouldn't be used for duel'ing, they'd be used constantly by the same people just to train.
That's the point of a publicly accessible combat school. For people, who pay to enter, to train. The whole purpose of my duel code suggestion was to prevent abuse.
Quote from: Akaramu on December 31, 2016, 04:23:36 PM
We're talking about a 'combat school' thingy in Allanak where you'd pay to enter. I can see how it could be abused without constant staff supervision (for PKing without crimflag). A challenge code would prevent abuse.
Okay, let's have a no-holds barred conversation about this.
You can ALREADY PK without crimflag, if the person you want to PK ever leaves the city. But a lot of the people who you would normally see conflict arise from PK are smart enough to never put themselves in any position at all where they might get pkilled. I'm talking about types of characters who are quite fine and happy to sit and be rude and caustic and power-hungry but yet never leave the safety of a city guard where someone might take revenge, or try to gain an upper hand in some sort of systemic power struggle.
The kind of player who isn't like that is probably perfectly fine with grabbing a training weapon and going outside the city in the wilderness somewhere and having a nice spar with someone they trust. The kind of person whose IC actions lead them to OOCly constantly worry about being PK'd is the one who isn't fine with that and who wants to extend that code protection to a safe place for them to spar.
IC actions leads to IC consequences, as I've heard some people say. Structuring all of your play so that you're protected from your IC actions by crimcode IS abuse, in my opinion.
Quote from: Malken on December 31, 2016, 04:37:17 PM
Duels that last half a day aren't duels anymore. And let's be honest, this "duel code" wouldn't be used for duel'ing, they'd be used constantly by the same people just to train.
I've had IC conversations with people where we met for a quick drink and the next thing you know, the game has rolled from dusk to high sun. Did we really just sit in a bar and chat for 18 hours? No, we sat and had a conversation that OOC lasted about 30 minutes or so.
So sparring for half a day isn't a big deal and if the players are enjoying it and roleplaying properly, then it's NO DIFFERENT from someone else's play where they stay awake for 3 game days chatting with people in the bar like a drugged up coke fiend.
I doubt it's IC for most characters to leave the city ONLY to spar. I've certainly never played a character who would have gone into the wilderness with a training weapon to spar. The wilderness is where you go to hunt, greb, and travel somewhere - because it's dangerous out there! For instance, I had a warrior bard in Fale who was ICly a sissy and wouldn't have left the city except for very strong, pressing reasons. The poor guy never got a chance to raise his skills for years and years. Because Fale didn't have a training compound.
Some clans don't even allow their minions to leave the city. And silky aides might want combat training, too. You tell that silky aide with guild_merchant to go train with wooden weapons where scrabs and spiders roam!
Quote from: Miradus on December 31, 2016, 04:44:30 PM
Quote from: Malken on December 31, 2016, 04:37:17 PM
Duels that last half a day aren't duels anymore. And let's be honest, this "duel code" wouldn't be used for duel'ing, they'd be used constantly by the same people just to train.
I've had IC conversations with people where we met for a quick drink and the next thing you know, the game has rolled from dusk to high sun. Did we really just sit in a bar and chat for 18 hours? No, we sat and had a conversation that OOC lasted about 30 minutes or so.
So sparring for half a day isn't a big deal and if the players are enjoying it and roleplaying properly, then it's NO DIFFERENT from someone else's play where they stay awake for 3 game days chatting with people in the bar like a drugged up coke fiend.
I agree. I was mostly disagreeing that it should be called a "duel" code just to pretend that this would be used for people to settle scores and things like that instead of the "let's go train in all safety" like it would be used 99.9% of the time.
Quote from: Malken on December 31, 2016, 04:47:53 PM
I agree. I was mostly disagreeing that it should be called a "duel" code just to pretend that this would be used for people to settle scores and things like that instead of the "let's go train in all safety" like it would be used 99.9% of the time.
I called it challenge code. Other people decided to call it duel code. ;D
Quote from: Akaramu on December 31, 2016, 04:47:41 PM
I doubt it's IC for most characters to leave the city ONLY to spar. I've certainly never a character who would have gone into the wilderness with a training weapon to spar. The wilderness is where you go to hunt, greb, and travel somewhere - because it's dangerous out there! For instance, I had a warrior bard in Fale who was ICly a sissy and wouldn't have left the city except for very strong, pressing reasons. The poor guy never got a chance to raise his skills for years and years. Because Fale didn't have a training compound.
Some clans don't even allow their minions to leave the city. And silky aides might want combat training, too. You tell that silky aide with guild_merchant to go train with wooden weapons where scrabs and spiders roam!
I think if you've got people in a clan/org who want to spar regularly then they should petition to get some place to do it in their compound. Or rent a large apartment, add each other to the lease, and call it their dojo.
My thought is that the sparring center we're wanting is for independents or for people to spar together across organizational lines (which they can already do, if they trust each other enough to risk going in). I got no solution at all for someone who wants to be ICly a sissy but yet picked 'warrior' as their main guild and wants to get those warrior skills up.
You try petitioning for such a room on the clan compound and see what happens. I've never seen it happen!
Wilderness sparring is silly even for most PCs who aren't sissies.
I've always found sparring in apartments a bit iffy, too. Stuff is going to break. The apartment will take damage because you're inevitably going to miss and hit the wall at some point. Or the furniture. And it's noisy! You think the landlord is okay with that? Or the VNPCs who are trying to sleep next door?
Quote from: Miradus on December 25, 2016, 03:54:18 PM
What's interesting is that there's absolutely NOTHING stopping anyone from doing this right now in game.
A few pages back you liked the combat school MMH idea, now you don't anymore... why?
Pretty sure that every clan compound has an area to train in, no?
Has a landlord ever complained about noisy mudsex or someone being pkilled in a room? Are you thinking the imms are actually going to zing you for poor roleplay for sparring in an apartment?
I've sparred on several occasions in the wilderness. Didn't find it silly. There's also organizations that aren't city-based who do it all the time. Literally all the time. I'd be surprised if right now, while you're reading this, there aren't a couple of people doing it.
Quote from: Miradus on December 31, 2016, 05:01:43 PM
Has a landlord ever complained about noisy mudsex or someone being pkilled in a room? Are you thinking the imms are actually going to zing you for poor roleplay for sparring in an apartment?
I've sparred on several occasions in the wilderness. Didn't find it silly. There's also organizations that aren't city-based who do it all the time. Literally all the time. I'd be surprised if right now, while you're reading this, there aren't a couple of people doing it.
Now you're just picking an argument with me even though you didn't mind the MMH combat school idea a few pages back and said there's no one stopping anyone from doing it ingame. ::)
Dude, you've been playing for less than a year. No, staff aren't going to animate angry landlords for every in-apartment spar, especially not for relatively new players who get away with that kind of stuff more easily. They do happen, though, same for in-apartment PKs (staff might animate a witness who heard screams when the AoD asks questions). Noisy mudsex is an ingame reality that doesn't (usually) break the furniture.
And yes, for a city-based character unstabling a mount, riding someplace reasonably safe, and using up extra water every day for their regular sparring routine is silly. Once or twice for shits and giggles or as a dare, sure. But for regular training? No. Keep in mind I suggested this MMH idea for
city-based characters, not hunters or grebbers who ride out every day anyway.
Quote from: Malken on December 31, 2016, 04:59:54 PM
Pretty sure that every clan compound has an area to train in, no?
Haven't seen any except in the Byn and AoD. And now GMH merchants don't get hunters to train with anymore.
(https://media.makeameme.org/created/training-2l1rfe.jpg)
And yeah, I don't think Staff condones sparring in apartments. I mean, I guess, if you put the RP into it and you don't have any furniture in there, it could be a sparring room. But when it's full of couches and beds and things, sparring is sort of silly. I look at my bedroom and laugh a little thinking about 'sparring in there'. But, like I said, if you have a spare room and you turn it into a sparring chamber...I don't (personally) see a problem with it, but I imagine Staff might.
I'd love to see a mid-level sparring academy sort of place in Zalanthas, but I think it could be tackled with a MMH and someone with a bunch of gusto! I don't think the need is so great that it needs to arbitrarily be plopped into the game.
I do know Akaramu's feel, and I think I struggle to have a 'combat character' in Allanak who doesn't readily join the Byn. I typically go Rinth, just because there's less questions that need to be asked, and while I don't wantonly murder NPCs, I do engage in petty scraps and over time that's good enough to be 'alright'.
On a related note, Serpent PKed one of my earlier characters after inviting her to 'spar' outside the city. She had reason to believe that was what he was actually going to do, since he'd wanted her as his apprentice at some point. Man... I should have taken his offer. :'(
Still my #1 best PK death. He actually talked a bit first, and talked more after while she was paralyzed.
I really wasn't against the idea at all until all the infrastructure started being built around it to protect people from other people.
I feel like there's too much of that in the game already, crimcode being the #1 offender.
You might change your mind about crimcode in a few years. It's absolutely necessary. Still very possible to PK in the city, you just have to be smart about it and avoid public places - which makes perfect sense IC. A public sparring hall would definitely have VNPC witnesses in it even when there's no other PC.
Quote from: Akaramu on December 31, 2016, 05:10:28 PM
Haven't seen any except in the Byn and AoD. And now GMH merchants don't get hunters to train with anymore.
GMH merchants do! It's not so hard a work around. :) But there's definitely a way to "do it".
If you want to spar consistently with complete IC justifications
and endless partners without having to bend the IC realism, join one of the clans in game that do exactly that.
I have 0 sympathy for 'I want to be a lone wolf/indy character, but still get all the coded advantages of joining a clan, so give me areas in game where I can spar without danger/risk of death, while still being independant and edgy. '
Join a clan, or dont. The choice is yours, just dont complain that you don't get the coded advantages of clanned life as an indy.
No one said anything about lone wolf or Indy. But not all clans have sparring compounds, and not all timezone players have clannies to spar with.
And sometimes you might just want to go with whatever clan your PC is being swept into by natural IC events instead of clinging to your OOC mindset of 'I must join a clan with a sparring compound!'
I can only imagine staff frustration after taking all the time and work to add chaltons and vultures to the game and then people go complain about not being able to spar.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on December 31, 2016, 09:08:37 PM
I can only imagine staff frustration after taking all the time and work to add chaltons and vultures to the game and then people go complain about not being able to spar.
The rogue tarantulas and scrab are enjoying those, even if the southern players aren't.
Quote from: Miradus on December 31, 2016, 09:13:42 PM
The rogue tarantulas and scrab are enjoying those, even if the southern players aren't.
Yup. ;D
Prefer to choose my sparring partner, thank you very much. Those spiders keep inviting themselves to the match. It's so rude!
The chaltons are lovely, though. Almost too cute to kill. :'(
[Edit: nevermind, theres a reason I mostly just lurk]
I've never been yelled at for sparring in an apartment.
Not that I really give much of a shit about it, because sparring sucks ass if you aren't in an elf tribe or have some other trick up your sleeve. But, I mean...I've never sparred in an apartment that was like, "This tiny space barely has enough room for a human to fully extend its arms," either.
The idea that the Staff are going to require you to a) spar in a no-law area or b) acquire a friggin' warehouse just so you can practice fighting is...a little paranoid. If you think Staff are going to begrudge you grinding up to jman over 15 days played by sparring with your bros, you're pretty much entirely wrong, unless there's some new staffer on board who's got some ridiculous pet peeve about it.
Allanak should only allow public sparring if it involves real weapons and ends in death.
Anything else is Tuluki.
Miradus, placing the blame on the player who has enemies wanting to kill them is a broad generalization. People can be targets just by being who they are, at times. Not everyone gets marked because they "deserve it." Plenty of times I've been in roles, where for <reasons,> someone rolls outta chargen and pretty much immediately decides they wanna kill me. In those situations going outside is rather inconvenient also, if you don't have the ability to defend yourself out there. (hint: with the lethality of long-lived players as they are, it is very hard to defend yourself without constant vigilance as a wet-ear).
I say if there is going to be an inside-city training area, make the change happen IC. It's possible. It may take some MMHery.
A gym that's free for noble house employees and that merchant house employees can pay to enter sounds like a good idea to me. No one else, they don't trust you peons. If you're a kadian following a Fale employee in, you don't have to pay.
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