A café in Allanak. You can buy herbs you can use to make tea, or tea itself, or coffee. There's cheap swill, good stuff and maybe an expensive item. Little round buns or crackers. Room echoes of an elf randomly being kicked out. What do you think?
Ideally I think there would be two cafes. One where elves and witches are allowed, and one where they aren't.
I like the idea of more venues of different types. It is a big city, after all. If I don't want to go to a tavern I don't have a lot of options. Kurac doesn't have a gambling den there somehow, there aren't buildings where humans are squatting and selling pieces of questionable meat (the elf teahouse is very well done, by the way) and there's nowhere for dwarves to meet each other on that first important step down the road to making babies. Granted, that one might have to wait until our playerbase builds up.
More restaurants would be good. The Silver Ginka and the Azure Dragon are high-end; the elven teahouse serves the elves and breeds; maybe something for those of us in between.
An item you can buy in the Arbotoreum is described as a gaspy, a supposedly very common food item in the city. A couple of new everyman restaurants selling their own gaspies whose mdescs decry the other place's gaspies would be hilarious.
Silver Ginka needs a little love more than we need a new tavern.
Also, you can buy tea in the Gaj.
I hate to say but for MOST of that... find out IC.
There are already 4 "bars" in the city when we have maybe 30 people on some nights. Even if you foolishly believe they are all in Allanak, between the clans, hunting, sexing, etc... that's 4 areas for congregation split between 5 PCs.
Granted I've never played in the Atrium, but I've had a number of PCs tell me that the Ginka is not that high end -- for me at least, and I could be wrong, but from what I've seen from other PCs, the Ginka is somewhere at the same level as Red's. After all, it has half giants drinking tea in there, although the prices are a bit steep (justifiably, since tea is an expensive import). I also view it as a kind of refugee (northron) hangout.
But I could be wrong in this.
the silver ginka is a pretty classy place if you look at what it's selling, but it's upper-middle class. it's for the richer merchants to hang out.
the arboretum is as high class as it gets, because... well... nobles only.
I say we move the Gaj to the other side of the city so it can be closer to the Byn and Merchant Houses.
Then we destroy the Silver Ginka because it doesn't provide much except tacky ambiance and Red's does it better. Someone burn it down.
Then you can have Red's for commoner/noble meets, Arboretum for fancy high class silk sex parties, and the Gaj where everyone collapses after a day of hard hunting, or salt grebbing.
Quote from: Riev on November 03, 2016, 02:50:48 PM
I hate to say but for MOST of that... find out IC.
There are already 4 "bars" in the city
More than that, actually.
Hmmm, I had a topic I wanted to bring up similar to this. Maybe I should write it up.
Quote from: Riev on November 03, 2016, 03:04:13 PM
I say we move the Gaj to the other side of the city so it can be closer to the Byn and Merchant Houses.
This, please. Not for burning down the silver ginka, though.
I agree that the Gaj needs to be moved or burned down and replace closer to the rinth and Byn, and that the Silver Ginka is a bit too weird.
Totally want a Kuraci gambling den, though. Could have a room that one goes in from the street, and then a room beyond that for mid to high rollers where elves and breeds are not allowed. I imagine the House would be worried enough about sticky fingers to consider this option for their better room. Could sell brandy and one finger food, and kruth cards.
Its always bothered me (but a lot of things do) that the helpfiles say that kruth card games are really common in Allanak, but you can only buy cards from the rinth.
I've wanted to start a new tavern in the Bazaar, but that'd require a lot more work than I'm willing to do. I can think of enough in-character steps, but it'd really depend on whether you can pitch a tent in the bazaar and where you'd get the drinks. I don't think we're allowed to haggle with Vennant anymore.
Quote from: a french mans shirt on November 03, 2016, 04:42:49 PM
I agree that the Gaj needs to be moved or burned down and replace closer to the rinth and Byn, and that the Silver Ginka is a bit too weird.
Totally want a Kuraci gambling den, though. Could have a room that one goes in from the street, and then a room beyond that for mid to high rollers where elves and breeds are not allowed. I imagine the House would be worried enough about sticky fingers to consider this option for their better room. Could sell brandy and one finger food, and kruth cards.
Its always bothered me (but a lot of things do) that the helpfiles say that kruth card games are really common in Allanak, but you can only buy cards from the rinth.
I've wanted to knock down the southern entrance to the Mantis -- where there is some gambling going on -- thus allowing southsiders and rinthis to mingle and encouraging spice usage (although I'd get rid of the NPC, or up its prices, to keep PC spice pushers in business). It'd be close to the Byn too, as a bonus, and from the room descriptions it seems like it used to be this way. Plus you -can- use kick in the Mantis, but, uh. It'll go awesome.
I wouldn't, however, want to open a more bars than we have -- so if that happens, something else should close.
I've always seen Allanak as having many more virtual streets and businesses, not just the virtual people and apartments. Where our characters can roam is a small portion of a much larger city. Kind of a typical thing in video games, really. The doors that don't open.
The reason I say this is that in that virtual side of the game world, the city evolves however we imagine it does. There's a little pub on the corner that caters to dung sellers and no one else. It gets shut down because it turns out all the booze was stolen and the landlord rents to a cobbler until he gets murdered on his way in to open the shop one morning. Then it falls to squatters for a while, until the owner hires some thugs to collect "rent" and it just stays that way for the time being. Our characters don't interact with that side of the world except when they themselves are virtual, before they are rolled and when we log off. Or when we say so and want to rp it out.
The coded interaction takes place in a handful of the most popular and successful joints that have served their social purpose for over 20 years. The stories happen there, mosty. We don't need the name or the description to change for our stories to happen there. Don't try to fix it.
You can't burn down the Gaj. It is the heart of Armageddon.
Quote from: a french mans shirt on November 03, 2016, 04:42:49 PM
Its always bothered me (but a lot of things do) that the helpfiles say that kruth card games are really common in Allanak, but you can only buy cards from the rinth.
I agree, though I think the easiest way to handle this without changing any shops might be to stick them in the newbie shops area, and think outside that, that the shop south of Red's seems like a fitting place to stick them which would also be very close to a tavern and in a fairly centralized location.
Quote from: bardlyone on November 03, 2016, 05:50:55 PM
Quote from: a french mans shirt on November 03, 2016, 04:42:49 PM
Its always bothered me (but a lot of things do) that the helpfiles say that kruth card games are really common in Allanak, but you can only buy cards from the rinth.
I agree, though I think the easiest way to handle this without changing any shops might be to stick them in the newbie shops area, and think outside that, that the shop south of Red's seems like a fitting place to stick them which would also be very close to a tavern and in a fairly centralized location.
I'm pretty sure you can already buy them upstairs of Red's.
The Red's has darts and dice (The lousy kind with pictures, not the useful kind with pips). I don't think they sell cards.
I could've sworn seeing them there in the past. Maybe not.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on November 03, 2016, 05:47:27 PM
You can't burn down the Gaj. It is the heart of Armageddon.
If you burnt down the gaj there would be a dozen more virtual dive bars to choose from.
Speaking from experience the Gaj is surprisingly fire retardant.
The Gaj actually benefits from being set on fire.
It cleans it.
Ew. Allanak has a load of bars nobody uses as-is.
I wouldn't mind seeing the two core bars closer together so that mixing the two circles IG is smoother. Shift the Gaj for logistical reasons, or open another vNPC bar on the Plaza across the way to accommodate. Red's, even at peak, seems to be lacking regular patronage.
That, or consolidate to one single bar that can accommodate all tiers of society - different levels/entrances that have some semblance of cross-over. If nobles need something much nicer they can hit the Arboretum or Atrium.
Quote from: Gravity on November 03, 2016, 08:19:58 PMconsolidate to one single bar that can accommodate all tiers of society - different levels/entrances that have some semblance of cross-over. If nobles need something much nicer they can hit the Arboretum or Atrium.
Yes. This.
Quote from: Delirium on November 03, 2016, 08:38:55 PM
Quote from: Gravity on November 03, 2016, 08:19:58 PMconsolidate to one single bar that can accommodate all tiers of society - different levels/entrances that have some semblance of cross-over. If nobles need something much nicer they can hit the Arboretum or Atrium.
Yes. This.
I always liked in Tuluk how (and memory is foggy) but roughly the two main bars (Sanctuary for rich people and the Kadian mid-tier one) were so close that you could step outside (and maybe go one room) and 'see' if the other bar was populated or not. Also the Kadian bar had two entrances, which was kind of nice, for the whole peeping thing.
the Kadian bar felt like a bar that everyone could go to, although this may partly stem from the integration into commoner society of noble society that Allanak does not have. Nobles up there felt free to sit with random, unknown commoners. Their presence in the same room as pc elves and rinthis is immediately noticed in Allanak.
Quote from: Delirium on November 03, 2016, 08:38:55 PM
Quote from: Gravity on November 03, 2016, 08:19:58 PMconsolidate to one single bar that can accommodate all tiers of society - different levels/entrances that have some semblance of cross-over. If nobles need something much nicer they can hit the Arboretum or Atrium.
Yes. This.
I don't remember the Kadian bar having more than one entrance. The Firestorm was 2 rooms west of what used to be the firepit, that was the only entrance.
I think one problem with Allanak, is that the center of trade is on one side of the city, while the center of congregation is on the other side of the city. This really makes no sense at all. But if you were to put them both on the same side, no one would ever go to the "other" side. That would also make no sense, from a design standpoint. So you really need to have a reason to go to either side of the city.
I think one possible solution, might be to simply shorten the round-time for movement within the bazaar. So you can get from the northeast corner of the market to the southwest corner in half the time it currently takes. And shorten the round-time movement on all the perimeter paths around the market as well. It doesn't have to be "elf-running" fast - but somewhat faster than it is now.
Is the Kadian Bar the Blue Vestric? I recall there being an entrance both from the Commons (West to East) and one from a road (south to north).
The Blue Vestric had two entrances.
I think Lizzie was thinking of Firestorm, which had just the one entrance and wasn't just a couple rooms from the Sanctuary.
Or we could expand the Gaj to have more rooms. One for whoever, one for fuckin' 'gicks, one for scummy scum, and a gambling room.
yeah the blue vestric wasn't in tuluk, guys.
The Blue Vestric WAS in Tuluk. It was in the Red Sun Commons. The Kadian tavern was not the Blue Vestric, it was The Firestorm*, located in Freil's Rest, and it was closed. The bartender of The Firestorm went to bartend at the Vestric which I guess is why there might be some confusion. Gosh.
*I never liked the decision to remove it but all water under the burlap sack now I guess.
I didn't store on Tuluk, Tuluk stored on me
just weighing in with a noobie opinion, that I think the number and variety of eateries/bars is pretty good. each has a distinct purpose, in my view, and none should be changed or removed. sorry to be a naysayer!
Screw that Kadian bartender, he kicked me out once for talking funny!... seriously though, I think it would be nice if the Gaj were moved closer to the Byn, the Merchant Houses, and the rinth. It's not supposed to be some upscale establishment and its current location doesn't really make much sense except it's closer to Red's. Personally, I'd rather the social tiers stay separated, there's a reason I cheered when the Atrium was reopened, keeps those tea-sipping socialites out of my gritty RP, unless I, you know, go sit in Red's or the Silver Ginka with the sole purpose of grossing them out by talking about poo and bugs. The power structure in Allanak is so freaking deadly that it's pretty undesirable to encounter an aide in the Gaj. You shouldn't just dump everyone together in the Gaj unless the social structure changes a good deal... that'd be a fricking slaughter, with a slew of senseless revenge-killings.
EDIT: Currently, its location seems only convenient to gemmers, if it were moved, then those gemmers would have to walk further for the opportunity to be ostracized, which, I get it would suck, but, comprimises.
My problem with moving it is that there is no realistic location to move it over that way. It's a commoners bar, if anything it should be moved (if at all) closer to the Arena since it's theme is based on Gladiators and the Arena.
I do have a question though, if you were a commoner, where else would you go besides the Gaj?
Sometimes, if I'm not a 'rinthi or a dirt grebber, I'll go to Red's. Usually with the knowledge that I MIGHT run into a noble who might have me whipped for not bowing low ENOUGH (the floor is only so malleable!).
Unfortunately, there IS nowhere but the Gaj, as a "and the Gladiator" tavern, is so far removed from where much of its patronage might come from. Sure, the commoner's quarter is right there, but the majority of places that EMPLOY commoners are on the exact other side of the city.
Maybe like Tuluk did, have a commoner's bar set up in the Arena? Its a bit closer to... well.. everything. Vennant gets a job there, lets one of the waitresses pick up the slack at the Gaj. You can go to the Gaj, but "The Gladiator" tavern is now open for business with the same piss whiskey you've enjoyed for years.
I highly doubt there will be anything new added, it's already spread a bit thin.
Quote from: Ath on November 04, 2016, 08:06:36 AM
My problem with moving it is that there is no realistic location to move it over that way. It's a commoners bar, if anything it should be moved (if at all) closer to the Arena since it's theme is based on Gladiators and the Arena.
I do have a question though, if you were a commoner, where else would you go besides the Gaj?
Perhaps a streetside eatery on some well-traveled avenue. Something without walls but maybe just a few stools clustered around the Armageddon equivalent of a food truck.
On an OOC level, most people tend to use the taverns as a "place I can idle where I can feel relatively safe from muggers and thieves".
A 'food' cart or 'general public' gathering area wouldn't go as well unless it had the Arm constantly patrolling.
As interesting as it would be, this is part of why previous attempts haven't gone well. The Gaj is nearly 100% safe, and if someone DOES try something while you're AFK/Idle, the soldiers are absolutely everywhere in a tavern. In some upstart public area? Its just asking for a bored serial killer to come by, or an arsonist to set your shiz on fire.
While I understand it from an IC perspective, it does seem to me that opening up more bars/clubs/drinking hole will spread the PC population even thinner, if they go to the new bar at all. From my current experience with the Gaj, it doesn't seem as busy as it was years ago (correct me if I'm wrong).
So, totally understanding what you are trying to get here, but right now there's the Gaj, Red's Retreat, the Oash bar, the Arboretum, and the Atrium tea sipping place. It just already feels divided to me.
I'm asking about existing, not new.
Quote from: Ath on November 04, 2016, 10:30:03 AM
I'm asking about existing, not new.
Existing places where Commoners are allowed:
Gaj, Red's, Silver Ginka, Oash (and maybe the Atrium? I'm not fancy)
Folley, Mantis
So, up to 7 "public meeting hangouts" that all possibly cater to the majority of the citizens of the city/PC base.
Quote from: Ath on November 04, 2016, 08:06:36 AM
My problem with moving it is that there is no realistic location to move it over that way. It's a commoners bar, if anything it should be moved (if at all) closer to the Arena since it's theme is based on Gladiators and the Arena.
I do have a question though, if you were a commoner, where else would you go besides the Gaj?
A "safe" 'rinthi bar that didn't involve traipsing all the way through the 'rinth to get to. In order to enhance the "corrupt" militia you could even have off-duty soldiers in there who don't react to crime code. It could be done with existing venues by adding a new path to the location.
Hardened mercenaries (the Byn) whose back wall abuts the Screaming Mantis bar, really screams for the Screaming Mantis to be a hardened mercenary bar. Something on the order of:
"Okay Flaming Fist-Gortok-Shitcloaks, you can go into the Mantis, but you can't go out the back way into the Rinth. If you try, JimBob the Rinthi elf with max shiv will max shivify your face. If you manage to slip past him and I find out, *I* will max-shivify your face."
And open a doorway from the outside entry of the Byn compound, into the Screaming Mantis bar. Let the Bynners take turns on Tavern-Watch, Kurac-style, for the mutual benefit of the Rinthis and whoever else is typically found in there. Make it still considered "a place where you won't find templars or Allanak soldiers" but equally still a place where rinthis will cut you if they catch you fucking up.
So what I've noticed over my last few characters (last few years) is that it generally doesn't even occur to many players that other spaces besides taverns can be used for gathering and roleplaying.
I had tried, to varying degrees of success, to popularize certain spots simply by idling there myself.
A significant problem is people speedwalking. Even ones who knew/liked my character would just breeze past.
People sit in taverns without buying drinks/food, so surely that's not a REQUIREMENT for a gathering space, is it?
The only coded thing that made some locations awkward was lack of seating where everyone could talk. I'd like to see a lot of individual bench objects aggregated into "a group of benches" so you can have 6-8+ people all take part in the same conversation. Or maybe for places smaller than taverns, somehow script "talk" to echo to the whole room.
I'd like a low-class restaurant for non-elves.
Somewhere where they don't serve ale so people don't go be idle there and get spread thin, but somewhere you might want to rp in for an hour, getting your cheap soul food and all that, having your I-want-my-spice meeting.
I think part of it is I'm interested in gaspies being coded and actually becoming known to people as an allanaki thing for those who don't visit the arbotoreum and read the one mdesc of the one food.
+1 for The Mantis being accessible to everyone. This would vastly improve the Labyrinth as a place to play, and would make Labyrinth-Other interactions less... awkward.
- Gaj would probably still be the main hub for commoners. It's close to stables. Newbs pop there. No one can really stab you there (and get away with it). This last point is important -- a brawl can't end in a killing, right there in the bar. People like to not die.
- Bynners and people looking for trouble will go to the Mantis, at least sometimes. The occasional killing there will probably keep people from just making it the new Gaj.
- Rinth characters are often lonely and have to go to the Gaj for some interaction. Or they go to try and stir up trouble. Now that the Mantis is populated, or at least, Rinthis know that people looking for trouble will go there, they'll go to the Mantis instead. Rinthis in the Gaj always strikes me as really strange, but it's sort of necessary the way things are set up.
- Elf and Human rinthis still have other places to congregate away from non-rinthies, if they need to cause some REAL trouble.
There still needs to be a shitty little alley that leads to the Mantis, though, to maintain some separation from Allanak proper. It just shouldn't be a maze, and it shouldn't have NPCs in it looking to fucking chop you up. It should be crim-code free, though, so that soldiers don't feel like they're allowed to go patrol it or some shit.
I REALLY like this idea. A lot.
I haven't played a rinthi in years, so now that Feco's explained it I kind of like the idea.
Humans and elves do go on the opposite sides of the rinth as refugees or troublemakers... I want to see what happens once the Jaxa Pah gets set back up again. What will be the policy? Will the elves designate the Mantis as a gateway area between the rinth and southside or will they send patrols to rough up human southsiders they find? Which policy do you think would be best? I'm under the impression that staff do intend to open an elf clan at some point and I'm guessing they'll just re-open the Jaxa Pah.
Quote from: Feco on November 04, 2016, 01:10:06 PM
+1 for The Mantis being accessible to everyone. This would vastly improve the Labyrinth as a place to play, and would make Labyrinth-Other interactions less... awkward.
- Gaj would probably still be the main hub for commoners. It's close to stables. Newbs pop there. No one can really stab you there (and get away with it). This last point is important -- a brawl can't end in a killing, right there in the bar. People like to not die.
- Bynners and people looking for trouble will go to the Mantis, at least sometimes. The occasional killing there will probably keep people from just making it the new Gaj.
- Rinth characters are often lonely and have to go to the Gaj for some interaction. Or they go to try and stir up trouble. Now that the Mantis is populated, or at least, Rinthis know that people looking for trouble will go there, they'll go to the Mantis instead. Rinthis in the Gaj always strikes me as really strange, but it's sort of necessary the way things are set up.
- Elf and Human rinthis still have other places to congregate away from non-rinthies, if they need to cause some REAL trouble.
There still needs to be a shitty little alley that leads to the Mantis, though, to maintain some separation from Allanak proper. It just shouldn't be a maze, and it shouldn't have NPCs in it looking to fucking chop you up. It should be crim-code free, though, so that soldiers don't feel like they're allowed to go patrol it or some shit.
I REALLY like this idea. A lot.
Technically the Mantis is available to all... if there are IC issues causing it not to be, then IC actions could be taken.
I like the idea of the mantis being available without -quite- the stigma and risk of entering the 'rinth.
Quote from: Ath on November 04, 2016, 01:51:14 PM
Quote from: Feco on November 04, 2016, 01:10:06 PM
+1 for The Mantis being accessible to everyone. This would vastly improve the Labyrinth as a place to play, and would make Labyrinth-Other interactions less... awkward.
- Gaj would probably still be the main hub for commoners. It's close to stables. Newbs pop there. No one can really stab you there (and get away with it). This last point is important -- a brawl can't end in a killing, right there in the bar. People like to not die.
- Bynners and people looking for trouble will go to the Mantis, at least sometimes. The occasional killing there will probably keep people from just making it the new Gaj.
- Rinth characters are often lonely and have to go to the Gaj for some interaction. Or they go to try and stir up trouble. Now that the Mantis is populated, or at least, Rinthis know that people looking for trouble will go there, they'll go to the Mantis instead. Rinthis in the Gaj always strikes me as really strange, but it's sort of necessary the way things are set up.
- Elf and Human rinthis still have other places to congregate away from non-rinthies, if they need to cause some REAL trouble.
There still needs to be a shitty little alley that leads to the Mantis, though, to maintain some separation from Allanak proper. It just shouldn't be a maze, and it shouldn't have NPCs in it looking to fucking chop you up. It should be crim-code free, though, so that soldiers don't feel like they're allowed to go patrol it or some shit.
I REALLY like this idea. A lot.
Technically the Mantis is available to all... if there are IC issues causing it not to be, then IC actions could be taken.
Technically, the Mantis Valley is available to all, but you wouldn't open a bar up there.
Why was the Mantis bar closed off from immediate access southside is the real question. Maybe its been addressed at this point.
The idea of the Mantis having ready access to Allanak proper is ludicrous...unless you just completely gutted it and made it not the Mantis anymore.
I agree with that. But just a dive bar on the road of slaves? You probably shouldn't be able to buy spice there, though.
Quote from: Riev on November 04, 2016, 02:02:41 PM
Technically, the Mantis Valley is available to all, but you wouldn't open a bar up there.
Challenge accepted.
Quote from: Synthesis on November 04, 2016, 02:20:35 PM
The idea of the Mantis having ready access to Allanak proper is ludicrous...unless you just completely gutted it and made it not the Mantis anymore.
As 'fun and interesting' as it would be, I do agree.
I -would- like if it didn't feel like walking through a minefield, particularly, or if it felt a bit more "neutral" than "surrounded by elves".
But to the topic at hand... there are far too many places for people to gather, and what few are even USED are mostly just crim-code-safe idle spots. We don't need more of those.
Walking through the 'rinth is almost perfectly safe (except for PCs) if you look like a 'rinther. There's like...a single NPC in the entire place that will aggro you just because you're a human, unless they've radically changed things recently.
Quote from: Riev on November 04, 2016, 02:28:51 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on November 04, 2016, 02:20:35 PM
The idea of the Mantis having ready access to Allanak proper is ludicrous...unless you just completely gutted it and made it not the Mantis anymore.
As 'fun and interesting' as it would be, I do agree.
I -would- like if it didn't feel like walking through a minefield, particularly, or if it felt a bit more "neutral" than "surrounded by elves".
But to the topic at hand... there are far too many places for people to gather, and what few are even USED are mostly just crim-code-safe idle spots. We don't need more of those.
This is why I said it need to still be down some sort of alley without crim-code. It would be absurd to just have a door into the Mantis near the bazaar.
In such an alley, you could get jumped by PCs, and presumably, virtually, people do get jumped. There just wouldn't be NPCs there looking to club you to death every single time you walked by.
I'm only advocating that this apply to the Mantis, though. The rest of the rinth should stay fuck-you-and-everything-about-you level inaccessible/dangerous.
Quote from: Ath on November 04, 2016, 01:51:14 PM
Technically the Mantis is available to all... if there are IC issues causing it not to be, then IC actions could be taken.
Yeah, but it's in all practical senses inaccessible, mostly because of the NPCs and the distance one has to travel. It
should be dangerous to go there. But right now, I think it's too dangerous.
Quote from: Synthesis on November 04, 2016, 02:34:07 PM
Walking through the 'rinth is almost perfectly safe (except for PCs) if you look like a 'rinther. There's like...a single NPC in the entire place that will aggro you just because you're a human, unless they've radically changed things recently.
There are a ton of aggro NPCs, they wander, and they're very dangerous. I'd agree that it's fine how it is if looking like a rinthi was easier -- say, by wearing a fucked up cloak to cover your things. But it doesn't really work like that. It's very difficult and time consuming to make yourself look inconspicuous to the NPCs.
99.9% of the aggro NPCs are only aggro if you have sweet loot.
So...leave your sweet loot at home, if you're going into the 'rinth. Problem solved.
All that being said? If you really want to get to the 'rinth? Pay someone to clear the way for you first.
Quote from: Synthesis on November 04, 2016, 02:45:03 PM
99.9% of the aggro NPCs are only aggro if you have sweet loot.
So...leave your sweet loot at home, if you're going into the 'rinth. Problem solved.
I don't want to get too into it, but they'll take anything that looks like they could get a few sid for it. Sweet loot is a really, really, really low bar for a lot of the NPCs.
That's the way it should be. I'd just prefer there were a way to the Mantis to avoid that, is all. I won't push the point, though.
Quote from: Feco on November 04, 2016, 02:54:33 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on November 04, 2016, 02:45:03 PM
99.9% of the aggro NPCs are only aggro if you have sweet loot.
So...leave your sweet loot at home, if you're going into the 'rinth. Problem solved.
I don't want to get too into it, but they'll take anything that looks like they could get a few sid for it. Sweet loot is a really, really, really low bar for a lot of the NPCs.
That's the way it should be. I'd just prefer there were a way to the Mantis to avoid that, is all. I won't push the point, though.
This shit is not complicated.
There are a few items that are flagged as 'rinth-safe, because NPCs load with the gear, and the imms don't want a massive NPC Blood Brawl on every reboot. There may be some cheap items that are flagged as 'rinth-aggro, but...I doubt it. It seems like a weird thing to code.
Everything else, the cutoff is a hard-coded value of around 50 'sid.
Even if you have literally every possible wear location with something worth 50 'sid on it, and you're ep'ing and es'ing bags of 50 'sid, the NPCs will leave you alone, except for that one NPC that attacks all humans no matter what.
(Again, unless they have radically revamped the 'rinth NPC cast of characters since the last time I played there.)
They do have a way of luring you into a false sense of security though, gotta say.
True story. I left the computer once while in the 'rinth and came back to 10 pages of combat spam from a weakass npc. Even with the help of friendly npc's I still died.
Quote from: Synthesis on November 04, 2016, 03:21:39 PM
Quote from: Feco on November 04, 2016, 02:54:33 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on November 04, 2016, 02:45:03 PM
99.9% of the aggro NPCs are only aggro if you have sweet loot.
So...leave your sweet loot at home, if you're going into the 'rinth. Problem solved.
I don't want to get too into it, but they'll take anything that looks like they could get a few sid for it. Sweet loot is a really, really, really low bar for a lot of the NPCs.
That's the way it should be. I'd just prefer there were a way to the Mantis to avoid that, is all. I won't push the point, though.
This shit is not complicated.
Yo, I don't know if you're trying to come off as confrontational, but you are. It's like you're implying I can't understand something simple.
I don't think it works as well and as simple as that. If nothing else, items might be inconsistently priced such that plenty of stuff you would think is rinth safe, isn't. Things that are tattered, or ruined, or patched up, or whatever.
This is just informed by my own experiences, and it hasn't been on characters with a high value skill, so take that for whatever it's worth.
But it doesn't matter. I still think the path to the Mantis is too long, and too dangerous. I think it would be interesting to make it more practically accessible, and I think it could be done in a way to preserve the area's character. Specifics about how the mugging-code work don't change my mind on that.
Again. Find someone to escort you there. The 'rinth is lawless for a reason, and you're not going to walk around there with enough coin in your gear to feed a family for a month.
And yet still, on topic, what if taverns were SLIGHTLY less safe? So that instead of "oops I accidentally kicked in a brawl and now 4 HG soldiers are on me", just the soldier on duty comes to try and help?
That script that auto-generates soldiers is a fucking killer.
Quote from: Riev on November 04, 2016, 03:35:55 PM
Again. Find someone to escort you there. The 'rinth is lawless for a reason, and you're not going to walk around there with enough coin in your gear to feed a family for a month.
And yet still, on topic, what if taverns were SLIGHTLY less safe? So that instead of "oops I accidentally kicked in a brawl and now 4 HG soldiers are on me", just the soldier on duty comes to try and help?
That script that auto-generates soldiers is a fucking killer.
All those off-duty soldiers are sure damn quick on the draw.
I think there should be a delay before crime code comes into effect. Even something as long as five minutes if you're in a hooded cloak.
There is a 'low class elf place' in Allanak already.
Go find it.
git gud
Synth, quit baiting. Moderated a post. Be nice to each other.
I guess my big thing is if there is a problem with something in the game that you could technically change in an IC manner, send in a request about it. Maybe you can change it in an IC manner rather than complaining about it.
If anything, staff these days are much more accessible and willing to work on player plots and ideas. As for the current places that PCs hang out there is the Gladiator and the Gaj, Red's Retreat, Silver Ginka, and the Arboretum. The Arboretum has some IC restrictions, mainly for Nobles and high status people, Red's is Noble and High Status, but not restrictive at all to other PCs. The Silver Ginka has no restrictions, more of a tea house that is small, and then you have the Gaj, the commoners main dive bar.
It seems like alot of this discussion is focused on forcing people into fewer areas to congregate. While the game playerbase isnt large enough to have huge crowds in all of the current taverns, they should still exist as an option. Let the players choose where and if they want to congregate somewhere. I'm also against the closure of Tuluk (even though it was before my time).
as for making the mantis more accessible, definitely gonna vote No on that one. the mantis should be a place where cutthroats and thieves feel safe to idle a bit. we can't have every off duty arm/bynner come by, or the thugs wont want to go there anymore.
Quote from: 650Booger on November 04, 2016, 04:32:36 PM
It seems like alot of this discussion is focused on forcing people into fewer areas to congregate. While the game playerbase isnt large enough to have huge crowds in all of the current taverns, they should still exist as an option. Let the players choose where and if they want to congregate somewhere. I'm also against the closure of Tuluk (even though it was before my time).
as for making the mantis more accessible, definitely gonna vote No on that one. the mantis should be a place where cutthroats and thieves feel safe to idle a bit. we can't have every off duty arm/bynner come by, or the thugs wont want to go there anymore.
Sounds like that would be the first step toward gentrification. I have to admit that sounds totally sweet. The rinth gets all these dark fantasy hipsters and the locals are pushed underground, literally.
Would you rather have
A) more bars in the City
B) more drinks out of a single purchase
I'd rather have B.
Quote from: Bahliker on November 04, 2016, 05:05:18 PM
the locals are pushed underground, literally.
You mean like, the sewers? Ew!
What about an alley going between southside and Folley's?
Since most of the people from southside looking for trouble won't be elves.
I just say move the damn Gaj, and put three shops where it used to be, in order to do something with those rooms.
E.g. ads I love the idea of the Mantis having access from Allanak.
Technically there's not much but wall separating it.
Quote from: a french mans shirt on November 04, 2016, 08:10:06 PM
What about an alley going between southside and Folley's?
Since most of the people from southside looking for trouble won't be elves.
I just say move the damn Gaj, and put three shops where it used to be, in order to do something with those rooms.
What about moving the Gaj to a location off Meleth's or the western end of Merchant's Road? Yes, it's a bit further away from the Commons, but much closer to both the Arena, and the Bazaar which are teeming with commoners. It's more of a central location in the city, so more accessible to all parties that want to hang out there and helps to centralize and concentrate players a bit more as a result. Many years ago in O.G. Tuluk, there was one main bar in a corner of an open square. That bar and that square was where all the action would always happen; it was the place to see and be seen, no matter who you were.
I agree there are too many bars in Allanak now and specifically I'm not sure I like having the Silver Ginka around given the Gaj sells tea and anyone better than the Gaj already has other options as well. If it's to stay open though, maybe making the central Meleth's area an open square similar to what the Red Sun Commons was but with less rooms (keeping the Temple of the Dragon as an enterable place from one of the rooms) and setting the Gaj there and possibly even the Ginka there (or left close by as-is) with the Arboretum would also help to concentrate things and provide more interaction between players.
I feel like adding more bars/clubs/drinking holes will just divide up the playerbase even more.
We already have a gathering place for all sorts of people (except highborns), aka the Gaj. All the unsavories go there and can mix with the commoners.
There's already a place for more well-to-do commoners and highborns to go to, aka the Red's Retreat. And a place for highborns and rich people only, aka the Arboretum. Then you have the Oash bar and the Silver Ginka, which is a tea-sipping place.
There's also already a place existing for mostly rinthis - aka Folley and the Mantis. Making the Mantis more accessible to public goes against IC realism. Most people don't go into the 'rinth unless they're looking for trouble, and when they do, they're fair game for mugging/robbing/conning/etc. Think realistically, why would someone born in the city want to go cause trouble in the worst part of the city unless they're A, stupid, B, bored?
I feel that people who play in my extremely sparsely populated step of the social ladder--- unaffiliated, poor humans--- don't have any options for venues apart from the Gaj. Everything else is either Get That Money or made for criminals.
Just wanted to clarify what I thought:
I thought the idea of increasing access to the Mantis was a good one.
I don't like the idea of opening new areas for congregation.
I don't like the idea of moving the Gaj.
I don't like the idea if increasing access to the Folley.
Doing this IC would be cool, and probably possible, but would require a character with pretty particular, and maybe strange, motivations, as well as particular standing in game.
I'm still of the mind that a new secondary entrance to the Mantis might be a good idea, as long as it's an IC "coordinated effort" (aka long-standing contract) between the people who run the Mantis and the T'zai Byn, and the entrance would be through the Byn's outer area (between the gate and their out-building). Nothing else would change - templars and nobles -still- wouldn't want to risk going in there, because it's -still- part of the Rinth. But the rinth just seems to be a totally logical place for hardened mercenaries to congregate, PLUS its close proximity (on the other side of their wall) adds to the logic.
You'd make a doorway through the wall northward, that leads into a vacant hallway. A step up to the north would lead you to a second hall (maybe with NPC goons that would attack anyone wearing silk, metal, or Allanak Noble House livery), and step down to the east would finally lead you to the bar. This way you won't find templars' soldiers taking pot-shots at patrons from the safety of the "southside" rooms.
Quote from: 650Booger on November 04, 2016, 04:32:36 PM
as for making the mantis more accessible, definitely gonna vote No on that one. the mantis should be a place where cutthroats and thieves feel safe to idle a bit. we can't have every off duty arm/bynner come by, or the thugs wont want to go there anymore.
Strictly speaking, there are two other bars (and many hiding spots) where the hunted can hide out in the rinth.
Also, there's actually two bars inside the Mantis itself -- you could have one bar plug into the T'zai Byn entrance and the other bar one that even the T'zai don't go to. I don't think that potshots are that big of a worry -- there will be IC consequences, and if you are really really hunted, you can always go deeper into the rinth -- or down below! I'd more worry about rinthers taking potshots at patrons than the other way around.
It's late here for me and I'm tired but... um, Byn isn't supposed to go into the rinth? Sorry, I'm confused.
Yeah I don't understand the logic of opening an entrance that is then more exclusionary to the Mantis. I think it should be open to all scummy commoners. Bynners maybe are allowed to go in plain clothes but it's their ass if they start a fight. No bail out from the organization.
I'm sentimental. Please don't move the Gaj. It would break my hard, black, Allanaki heart.
There is already a gambling hole above Red's. It should sell cards, I agree. That would be GREAT!
Because buying drinks is mostly a role playing prop, I agree with Skeelz that they should be, overall, cheaper. This is also the reason I don't buy tea in the Silver Ginka. My merchant house employees and aides flat out cannot afford it.
They really can't. I must not be skilling up my earning powers correctly.
Why in the Known would a Rinth bar knowingly open an entrance to a mercenary faction which clearly does heaps of work for nobility/GMHs/other influential clans? And from the other side, there is zero reason the Byn would want to open their back door to the Rinth just to save their guys a longer walk into town for booze...
The Rinth is not supposed to be connected to the rest of town. For multiple reasons.
100% agree with other people that there do not need to be more bars either.
Yeah. I don't think there need to be more bars, I think bars need to be more accessible to many walks of life. The segmentation in Allanak drives me bonkers. I really enjoyed in Tuluk, bars/gathering spots had the capability of all walks -- Templars, Nobles, Commoners of all walks. There were 'more seedy' locations, like the Tooth, but it wouldn't be unheard of that a Noble or Templar would have a 'Secret Meeting' there. I enjoyed that at any moment, you might need to be on your A game because a Templar walked in, even if they were just stopping for a bite to eat or read a book.
The Dichotomy of the bar scene/gathering spot scene in Allanak is atrociously segmented. I think the Blue Vestric served as a good example of segmentation and how you can have people still be separate but visible/interacting with the game world.
While I love the Arboretum, and Red's Retreat, and I loved Trader's when it was around -- They are great as flavor. But if the whole point of shutting down Allanak was to push people together into Allanak, why is it that it feels so segmented in practice?
I think allowing Scum in Allanak to interact with Scum in the Rinth via the neutral territory of the Mantis only seeks to increase interaction between criminal elements. It also makes the Rinth seem more like a bad neighborhood than a walled off murder zone. Which I guess it is, but the alleys around the Mantis always seemed to be the 'Neutral Territory'.
I think in the 'directions' command the Mantis is listed as 'Neutral'. Been a while.
But yeah, everything Reiloth said.
Fewer bars, more mingling.
No one actually seems to hang out in the Azure Dragon or the Silver Ginka, so I think its okay if those stay open. I wasn't real crazy about the opening of the Arbotoreum, it just, kind of felt like it was going to segment the population that can't go to the Gaj so they go to Red's instead. I don't know what actually goes on in there, how much people are going there and what for, but the nobles seem to be using it as a somewhat safe place to plot, which is something they should have without resorting to estates.
Why I wanted more restaurants that weren't actually bars is because people seem to treat those as places to rp, and then leave and go to the taverns after ten minutes for real drinks and conversations with more people. If people are going to treat a middle-lower class restaurant like that, then I would like one to open. Gaspies, bowls of chili, soul food, and cups of water and tea, no ale. Expensive enough and situated in a place preventing its replacement of the Gaj. You'd have to actually build it and see what happens though which I think is a waste of staff time.
Quote from: Reiloth on November 05, 2016, 12:01:03 PM
Yeah I don't understand the logic of opening an entrance that is then more exclusionary to the Mantis. I think it should be open to all scummy commoners. Bynners maybe are allowed to go in plain clothes but it's their ass if they start a fight. No bail out from the organization.
I wasn't talking about an entrance that is more exclusionary to the Mantis. I'm talking about a SECOND entrance, that is accessed by ANYONE who wishes to walk up Warrior Way to the end, where the Byn compound is to the east and one of their outbuildings is to the west. The north is a wall. The room where the gate is to the east, the outbuilding is to the west, and the wall is to the north, is technically just a dead end, at the end of Warrior Way. It isn't part of the Byn compound. I'm saying, open up that northern wall and build an entrance to a hallway leading to a *second* side-entrance to the Mantis. And let the Byn have occasional sentry duty in that bar.
@french shirt:
It sounds like what you really want -- if not, at least what I think would be neat -- is more variety in the food/drink offerings of the current bars.
What'd be neat is if the bars were associated with clans, and so leadership in the clans could push towards changing the menu now and then with mastercraft recipes from PCs (or other things).
Azure Dragon is Oash already. But you could have:
Silver Ginka (Fale?)
Gaj & Gladiator (Borsail?)
Mantis (Kuraci? Although maybe not here.)
Red's Retreat (Kadius?)
Quote from: nauta on November 05, 2016, 01:15:04 PM
@french shirt:
It sounds like what you really want -- if not, at least what I think would be neat -- is more variety in the food/drink offerings of the current bars.
What'd be neat is if the bars were associated with clans, and so leadership in the clans could push towards changing the menu now and then with mastercraft recipes from PCs (or other things).
Azure Dragon is Oash already. But you could have:
Silver Ginka (Fale?)
Gaj & Gladiator (Borsail?)
Mantis (Kuraci? Although maybe not here.)
Red's Retreat (Kadius?)
This just sounds needlessly complex. I'd rather Nobles have less perfunctory things to do (I run the Gaj, even though i'm just a Junior Noble) and have to think more outside of the box (How can I own the Gaj? Will this even curry favor with my Seniors?) Why does owning a bar mean anything to anyone besides a bit of chest-puffing? You mention changing the menus -- This could just be done with code, similar to the 'changing styles of Kadius'. Have a few different seasonal menus. Hell, base it off what's in the shops. Over X amount of Raptor Meat in this shop? Raptor Nugget time. No raptor meat? All out of raptor nuggets, here's a tuber salad.
I'd sooner play exclusively in Luirs or Red Storm, that just has one bar/gathering spot, than in Allanak which has a gazillion. I hate to think we shut down Tuluk to centralize people, only to push them into a highly segregated environment where interaction is based on your status. It's part of why i've always disliked Allanak. It is a place that sounds great on paper, but sort of ends up being a bunch of teenagers farting and fucking and avoiding each other. I hate to see Nobles just sitting by themselves in an empty bar, because they can't go anywhere else.
Quote from: Lizzie on November 05, 2016, 01:13:29 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on November 05, 2016, 12:01:03 PM
Yeah I don't understand the logic of opening an entrance that is then more exclusionary to the Mantis. I think it should be open to all scummy commoners. Bynners maybe are allowed to go in plain clothes but it's their ass if they start a fight. No bail out from the organization.
I wasn't talking about an entrance that is more exclusionary to the Mantis. I'm talking about a SECOND entrance, that is accessed by ANYONE who wishes to walk up Warrior Way to the end, where the Byn compound is to the east and one of their outbuildings is to the west. The north is a wall. The room where the gate is to the east, the outbuilding is to the west, and the wall is to the north, is technically just a dead end, at the end of Warrior Way. It isn't part of the Byn compound. I'm saying, open up that northern wall and build an entrance to a hallway leading to a *second* side-entrance to the Mantis. And let the Byn have occasional sentry duty in that bar.
Ah, I misunderstood you. When you mentioned 'outbuilding' I thought you meant inside of the Byn Compound. I agree with your idea!
Could even have a bouncer at the entrance. Ten sids to get in from the Southside entrance. Why? Because Rinthers want to make money off you and not just have you sit on a stool. Of course, the Rinth entrance is free of charge.
Quote from: Reiloth on November 05, 2016, 01:37:03 PM
Quote from: Lizzie on November 05, 2016, 01:13:29 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on November 05, 2016, 12:01:03 PM
Yeah I don't understand the logic of opening an entrance that is then more exclusionary to the Mantis. I think it should be open to all scummy commoners. Bynners maybe are allowed to go in plain clothes but it's their ass if they start a fight. No bail out from the organization.
I wasn't talking about an entrance that is more exclusionary to the Mantis. I'm talking about a SECOND entrance, that is accessed by ANYONE who wishes to walk up Warrior Way to the end, where the Byn compound is to the east and one of their outbuildings is to the west. The north is a wall. The room where the gate is to the east, the outbuilding is to the west, and the wall is to the north, is technically just a dead end, at the end of Warrior Way. It isn't part of the Byn compound. I'm saying, open up that northern wall and build an entrance to a hallway leading to a *second* side-entrance to the Mantis. And let the Byn have occasional sentry duty in that bar.
Ah, I misunderstood you. When you mentioned 'outbuilding' I thought you meant inside of the Byn Compound. I agree with your idea!
Could even have a bouncer at the entrance. Ten sids to get in from the Southside entrance. Why? Because Rinthers want to make money off you and not just have you sit on a stool. Of course, the Rinth entrance is free of charge.
Oh I like this even more. A 10-sid entry fee - it could be tallied by the RL day and 50% of the take could be directly deposited into the PC Sergeant's accessible Byn account (assuming there exists such a thing). The Sergeants, in turn, could use that as a petty cash fund, to buy their unit a keg of whatever, or give as bonuses to promising and useful recruits, pay off an extra-special bribe, etc. etc.
Is there something I'm missing
Why is everyone 'let Bynner's/people in Mantis 2k16' all of a sudden?
Quote from: Jihelu on November 05, 2016, 03:41:18 PM
Is there something I'm missing
Why is everyone 'let Bynner's/people in Mantis 2k16' all of a sudden?
I can't speak to the Byn thing, but for me at least I've had a few rinthers who found the Gaj too soldier heavy. At the same time, I would've liked a place where some southsiders and northsiders could mingle -- a shady place.
Quote from: Ath on November 04, 2016, 04:06:31 PM
I guess my big thing is if there is a problem with something in the game that you could technically change in an IC manner, send in a request about it. Maybe you can change it in an IC manner rather than complaining about it.
If anything, staff these days are much more accessible and willing to work on player plots and ideas. As for the current places that PCs hang out there is the Gladiator and the Gaj, Red's Retreat, Silver Ginka, and the Arboretum. The Arboretum has some IC restrictions, mainly for Nobles and high status people, Red's is Noble and High Status, but not restrictive at all to other PCs. The Silver Ginka has no restrictions, more of a tea house that is small, and then you have the Gaj, the commoners main dive bar.
Is Red's really primarily aimed at noble and high status, though?
They sell fare that is common to Luirs (so wanderers and tribals) such as nuggets, kumis, gith eye soup, and dried meat. Menu-wise, the most fancy and expensive thing on the item is tender chalton meat. That doesn't really say to me that their main clientele is highborn and highly-ranked commoners.
In terms of who is actually at Red's, if we look at the NPCs, we have a Bynner Trooper and Sergeant. There's nobody of particularly high social status there at all. This matches with the fact that Red's is directly north of a shop that is run by an elf.
Sure, Red's does aim at higher class then the Gaj. It's a clean place that doesn't have vomit all over the place and people pissing on the walls. But I never got the impression that their main focus was high-end. If that's really their primary target market, then I think the tavern should be appropriately updated to reflect that.
This is probably an unpopular opinion, but hanging out in the 'rinth is an IC thing. You pay a price IC to hang out in the 'rinth and you take some risks being there.
I can't think of any legitimate reason why someone non-rinth would WANT to hang out there and drink bad booze and eat orphan-meat pies unless they were up to some chicanery. If you look at the streets outside, the smell of bodily waste and decaying bodies is prominent.
This is a place your characters would WANT to go when they have access to the Gaj or Red's?
If you want to be non-rinthi but yet also enjoy some Mos Eisley-style scumbag cantina, then why not Red Storm? It's got a pretty scummy bar and a lot of IC lore surrounding it. Yeah, you run the risk of getting ganked by a drov beetle or lost in a storm, but that's IC. You want a safe and secure tunnel to the dive bar in the 'rinth? Maybe a police escort?
Quote from: Miradus on November 05, 2016, 07:29:47 PM
This is probably an unpopular opinion, but hanging out in the 'rinth is an IC thing. You pay a price IC to hang out in the 'rinth and you take some risks being there.
I can't think of any legitimate reason why someone non-rinth would WANT to hang out there and drink bad booze and eat orphan-meat pies unless they were up to some chicanery. If you look at the streets outside, the smell of bodily waste and decaying bodies is prominent.
This is a place your characters would WANT to go when they have access to the Gaj or Red's?
If you want to be non-rinthi but yet also enjoy some Mos Eisley-style scumbag cantina, then why not Red Storm? It's got a pretty scummy bar and a lot of IC lore surrounding it. Yeah, you run the risk of getting ganked by a drov beetle or lost in a storm, but that's IC. You want a safe and secure tunnel to the dive bar in the 'rinth? Maybe a police escort?
+1
You articulated this better than I could!
Quote from: Gravity on November 05, 2016, 07:53:40 PM
Quote from: Miradus on November 05, 2016, 07:29:47 PM
This is probably an unpopular opinion, but hanging out in the 'rinth is an IC thing. You pay a price IC to hang out in the 'rinth and you take some risks being there.
I can't think of any legitimate reason why someone non-rinth would WANT to hang out there and drink bad booze and eat orphan-meat pies unless they were up to some chicanery. If you look at the streets outside, the smell of bodily waste and decaying bodies is prominent.
This is a place your characters would WANT to go when they have access to the Gaj or Red's?
If you want to be non-rinthi but yet also enjoy some Mos Eisley-style scumbag cantina, then why not Red Storm? It's got a pretty scummy bar and a lot of IC lore surrounding it. Yeah, you run the risk of getting ganked by a drov beetle or lost in a storm, but that's IC. You want a safe and secure tunnel to the dive bar in the 'rinth? Maybe a police escort?
+1
You articulated this better than I could!
Sorry. One word.
Spice.
They opened up the Arboretum to be a higher class place than the Red's, but after the first month or so, people seemed to migrate back to the Red's. I think because you're more likely to have someone to RP with in the Red's. The idea of the Arboretum makes much more sense for higher class commoners and highborn.
if you want spice, you need to take the risks to get that spice, not get a one-way easy peasy ticket there.
find out ic how you too can become an addict.
Quote from: Reiloth on November 05, 2016, 08:05:02 PM
Quote from: Gravity on November 05, 2016, 07:53:40 PM
Quote from: Miradus on November 05, 2016, 07:29:47 PM
This is probably an unpopular opinion, but hanging out in the 'rinth is an IC thing. You pay a price IC to hang out in the 'rinth and you take some risks being there.
I can't think of any legitimate reason why someone non-rinth would WANT to hang out there and drink bad booze and eat orphan-meat pies unless they were up to some chicanery. If you look at the streets outside, the smell of bodily waste and decaying bodies is prominent.
This is a place your characters would WANT to go when they have access to the Gaj or Red's?
If you want to be non-rinthi but yet also enjoy some Mos Eisley-style scumbag cantina, then why not Red Storm? It's got a pretty scummy bar and a lot of IC lore surrounding it. Yeah, you run the risk of getting ganked by a drov beetle or lost in a storm, but that's IC. You want a safe and secure tunnel to the dive bar in the 'rinth? Maybe a police escort?
+1
You articulated this better than I could!
Sorry. One word.
Spice.
So now your view has gone from "inspire IC interactions between seedy folk and 'the rest'" to "people should want to go there to buy spice". If these two things were the interconnected plan you had initially, then that's cool but it wasn't the main motivation for opening out the Mantis.
1. Why would the authorities allow an easier route for people,
especially mercenaries, who are known to cause trouble in taverns, to buy spice from the Rinth?
2. Why would the west-side or east-side factions allow a neutral location to cut them out of the spice trade, when they have their direct contacts already?
3. Why would the rest of the Rinth want their neutral bar flooded with hundreds of new patrons so they can come get their spice fix and mingle with the criminals?
4. Why would the staff make it easier for people to acquire spice?
I'm sorry to be the nay-sayer here but I really feel like this is a ridiculous idea that just makes no sense ICly!
Edited to add: the sensible discussion was previously about consolidation and not stretching out the playerbase too much. Isn't this suggestion going to worsen the issue?
Think the player base is too dispersed?
Try casting a spell as a secret gick out on the grasslands during peak. :)
Quote from: Miradus on November 05, 2016, 08:54:09 PM
Think the player base is too dispersed?
Try casting a spell as a secret gick out on the grasslands during peak. :)
Be that as it may, I've spent an hour in Red's at peak, with 50 folks on, and didn't see a single person save for one who rushed through to log out. ;D
Quote from: Miradus on November 05, 2016, 08:54:09 PM
Think the player base is too dispersed?
Try casting a spell as a secret gick out on the grasslands during peak. :)
You hear the *snap* of a silenced rifle firing in the distance.
A large caliber bullet tears through your skull!
Welcome to Armageddon!
Quote from: Gravity on November 05, 2016, 08:34:09 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on November 05, 2016, 08:05:02 PM
Quote from: Gravity on November 05, 2016, 07:53:40 PM
Quote from: Miradus on November 05, 2016, 07:29:47 PM
This is probably an unpopular opinion, but hanging out in the 'rinth is an IC thing. You pay a price IC to hang out in the 'rinth and you take some risks being there.
I can't think of any legitimate reason why someone non-rinth would WANT to hang out there and drink bad booze and eat orphan-meat pies unless they were up to some chicanery. If you look at the streets outside, the smell of bodily waste and decaying bodies is prominent.
This is a place your characters would WANT to go when they have access to the Gaj or Red's?
If you want to be non-rinthi but yet also enjoy some Mos Eisley-style scumbag cantina, then why not Red Storm? It's got a pretty scummy bar and a lot of IC lore surrounding it. Yeah, you run the risk of getting ganked by a drov beetle or lost in a storm, but that's IC. You want a safe and secure tunnel to the dive bar in the 'rinth? Maybe a police escort?
+1
You articulated this better than I could!
Sorry. One word.
Spice.
So now your view has gone from "inspire IC interactions between seedy folk and 'the rest'" to "people should want to go there to buy spice". If these two things were the interconnected plan you had initially, then that's cool but it wasn't the main motivation for opening out the Mantis.
1. Why would the authorities allow an easier route for people, especially mercenaries, who are known to cause trouble in taverns, to buy spice from the Rinth?
2. Why would the west-side or east-side factions allow a neutral location to cut them out of the spice trade, when they have their direct contacts already?
3. Why would the rest of the Rinth want their neutral bar flooded with hundreds of new patrons so they can come get their spice fix and mingle with the criminals?
4. Why would the staff make it easier for people to acquire spice?
I'm sorry to be the nay-sayer here but I really feel like this is a ridiculous idea that just makes no sense ICly!
Edited to add: the sensible discussion was previously about consolidation and not stretching out the playerbase too much. Isn't this suggestion going to worsen the issue?
Not even sure really how to respond. I mean...if people want to go to the Mantis to buy spice they can/will. P sure the authorities already know about it.
Also not sure if you already know the Mantis deals spice?
Not sure if that spoils it, but your conjecture seems to be based on non-fact. The point would be driving criminal elements in Allanak together, rather than arbitrary separation.
Quote from: Gravity on November 05, 2016, 09:00:53 PM
Be that as it may, I've spent an hour in Red's at peak, with 50 folks on, and didn't see a single person save for one who rushed through to log out. ;D
Heh, I know at least 9 different sources of water in the wilderness from the grasslands to the canyons of waste but I only learned last week where Red's is. :)
I've also walked in on explicit mudsex ON THE ROAD south of Morin's when there were only 7 people logged on. So player dispersal ... meh.
Quote
Not even sure really how to respond. I mean...if people want to go to the Mantis to buy spice they can/will. P sure the authorities already know about it.
Also not sure if you already know the Mantis deals spice?
Not sure if that spoils it, but your conjecture seems to be based on non-fact. The point would be driving criminal elements in Allanak together, rather than arbitrary separation.
If people want to go to the Mantis, they currently have that option available - I'm not disputing that. It's not a secret they sell spice I'm sure. The question I'm debating is whether we need to open the Mantis to make it easier for people to do that, ICly and OOCly...
no we do not need to open it. i fpeople want spice they can go find ways to get it without staff making it easier for them.
Quote from: evilcabbage on November 05, 2016, 10:12:07 PM
no we do not need to open it. i fpeople want spice they can go find ways to get it without staff making it easier for them.
I've already answered "no" to this as well, but I was just trying to pull us back on track :D
This isn't about making it easier to find spice. It's about the OP wanting more options, and a bunch of us agreeing that the current location of the Gaj doesn't seem to make much sense, considering the rough-and-tumble types who do NOT hang out in the rinth, have their headquarters on the complete opposite side of the city. The merchant houses are all on the opposite side of the city, so all the hunters and crafters are headquartered there as well. The main marketplace is on the opposite side of the city, and there is a stable, the salt buyer, and the shit buyer, all on the opposite side of the city.
So it really doesn't make much sense for the Gaj to be where it is. However, it is where it is. And so - what would be an alternative to moving the Gaj, that doesn't involve moving the Gaj? Adding another bar - wouldn't be the best alternative. But there already IS another bar - the Mantis, on the other side of the city. The only problem, is that it's separated from the southern end of the city by a wall, right outside the Byn compound.
Well hey - how about - poking a hole in that wall, with the restriction that the Byn can go into that bar, but aren't allowed to go beyond it? And - that bar would still be considered the Rinth, subject to the rules of the alleys and NOT the rules of the southern side of the city. And - for an added bonus, provide a means for the Byn to do "tavern watch" as part of their scheduled duties. As a contracted mercenary thing between the Byn and the Mantis's proprietors.
That's what this is about. To give people who spend half their gaming time just walking to and from one end of the city to the other, only to find that it's time to go right back to the other side of the city to get to their scheduled chores again, an alternative to doing that.
i want to explain how that would not be a good idea because it would make it far too easy to access spice, when it isn't supposed to be easy in the city, and would encourage people to go to the mantis, smoke up, then go to training high off spice.
i want to explain that there is no way the city itself would authorize any sort of hole that would give easy access to spice.
i'm just going to say no, that idea will not work, and leave it there.
Deleting taverns from the game won't make players automatically congregate at the remaining taverns. They will just find different places to roleplay that haven't been made all weird by artificially forcing social castes together.
Intrigue and plots in the cities will make players congregate in taverns.
Quote from: LauraMars on November 05, 2016, 10:58:20 PM
Deleting taverns from the game won't make players automatically congregate at the remaining taverns. They will just find different places to roleplay that haven't been made all weird by artificially forcing social castes together.
Intrigue and plots in the cities will make players congregate in taverns.
yerp.
yerp.
The reason why the Mantis should remain as is, is simply because the Mantis is a rinthi bar. This just comes back to my previous question:
Why would someone who is not from the rinth go into the rinth unless they are A, looking for trouble, B, stupid, or C, bored?
Quote from: LauraMars on November 05, 2016, 10:58:20 PM
Deleting taverns from the game won't make players automatically congregate at the remaining taverns. They will just find different places to roleplay that haven't been made all weird by artificially forcing social castes together.
Intrigue and plots in the cities will make players congregate in taverns.
Intrigue and plots are fostered by players interacting with each other, and players interact with each other more if they are spread out over fewer gathering points/social venues. Further, if these venues are placed closer to where players are coming from, or can transit between each gathering point more quickly, it would result in more time for said interaction to occur, and more interaction will lead to more intrigue and plots. OOC'ly, most players have limited time to play (some of you do need to sleep sometime, right?). IC'ly, many clanned characters have certain schedules they follow (or are expected to follow), they are constrained or dictate their own schedule by the day/night/gate/merchant cycles, or some characters are so busy they have to parcel their time out. Having to walk across the city cuts into the time available for interaction, and so necessarily cuts down interaction, and less interaction means less intrigue and less plots.
The idea of having less Allanaki taverns or Allanaki taverns moved closer together is really is just an extension of the rationale behind the closure of Tuluk - consolidating the playerbase to foster more interaction - though I would argue it is a less dramatic and drastic action. There are still all of the private spaces (clan, apartment or otherwise), or all of the public spaces in between if players want to gather elsewhere.
With respect to the specific concern about social strata being mashed together artificially, I don't think anyone's actually suggested that yet as I don't want think anyone wants to get rid of an entire strata of social spaces (ie. let's wipe out all the high-end taverns). I'm not even sure the suggestion about opening a south entrance to the Mantis so southsiders can more easily get in really counts, as most would expect only the rough-and-tumble would want to go in anyway, such as inclined Bynners or what have you. Even if we do want to go to the extent of mashing the social strata together into certain spaces, this could presumably be dealt with by having the the social spaces internally stratified (as has been pointed out has been done before), or externally with just closer proximity so that there is a somewhat greater chance of the varied strata running into each other. If one day we ended with just a single social space where PC's of all stripes gathered, I'm sure the mashing up of the social strata could be dealt with in a number of ways IC'ly really. Imagine all the varied interaction and plots that would spawn from such an environment. I personally think it'd be a positive for the game.
I'd love to see the Gaj moved closer to the arena. It makes a lot of sense IG, considering it's affiliation to the arena. Vennant decides to build another place. It's been ongoing for ages. Wham, new tavern. The tavern in Tuluk was right near the arena. It worked. You will still see quite a lot of traffic going to the west side of the city. Magickers coming and going from the quarter, plus the stables are there, and lots of people like to go hunting out the west gate. I'd also suggest letting Borsail grab some ownership of the place. Much of their clan focuse is heavy on stuff that just doesn't really happen anymore. There biggest drive for a while seems to be to do with the arena. Let them have the arena tavern to monitor, and I'd add fighting pits to it. You have your arena events for big gladiator fights, but you could be running smaller events impromptu for fighters who want to fight for coin and blood.
Gaj - Low/Middle/Lower Upper Class. Main room for everyone, second lounge for aides, gmh, and nobles. Fighting pits. A few poor apartment rooms, a few middle-class, and a few upper-class. No affiliation needed -- Niche is for fights in blood pit, and hangout and apartments central in city.
Reds - Middle class/Lower Upper Class. Stage in main room, add a gambling den. Add more scripts like the ball game, where you pay coins and can try to be the champion of different games -- Niche is hosting performances, or competitions of games like kruth, darts, and so on.
Arboretum - Upper Middle Class (Agents+)/Upper Class only. Or, give the junior nobles something to aspire too. Make it only the last level of rank noble PCs can get. So it's a big show off thing when your given permission to enter on your own. -- Niche is being totally awesome. Add a special tattooist, so on.
Mantis - Lower Class only. Personally, I'd like to see the Mantis more centralized in the rinth, so it's really that middle ground safe zone, and becomes more accessible from outsiders. Everything else should remain dangerous as feck though, and if you stepped out the back door to the alleys, you get a shiv. I think having it easier for bynners to hang out there is fine, for one reason, spice. Increase the npc prices if need be, so the PCs who deal in spice are more valued and targetted. Hanging out in the mantis with more outsiders coming in looking for them might make their jobs a little more interesting as they get a good reason to idle at the mantis.
Btw, don't shoot. Just bouncing ideas.
i like evilone's idea, kind of, actually.
that would make sense.
and the mantis is kind of... central...
wait, i don't think i've ever actually gone -to- the mantis.
is it not centralized in the rinth?
Quote from: Gravity on November 05, 2016, 09:00:53 PM
Be that as it may, I've spent an hour in Red's at peak, with 50 folks on, and didn't see a single person save for one who rushed through to log out. ;D
Very true. Many times that I spent time in Red's at peak and there is barely anyone to interact. And I was playing a character that was told to not be in the Gaj, Either I don't know how to find interaction or Allanak really only needs two taverns that the player-base can use, along with some meeting place for the Highborn
BUT not to hang around and just chat.
Also, as stated in the thread a few times, I'm alright with the Gaj moving nearer to the Arena but maybe have Red's close and only have the Arboretum open for the Middle class/Upper Middle and Highborns (the Gardens and on). Perhaps, the Arboretum also can act like a meeting place for those who need it (Highborn).
(Didn't we have this problem in Tuluk before the shrink?)
there was the sanctuary, the tooth, and the firestorm (vestric) in tuluk.
the tooth and vestric were any and all comers.
the sanctuary was inked only.
also, tuluk just had a small playerbase because it wasn't as good as allanak *heh heh*
Except the Byn don't go into the rinth.
I see what you're getting at, but I don't think the Mantis is a suitable location. The rinth isn't ever meant to be visited by casual curious people who want to hang out and chill. That function is already covered by the Gaj. Unless, like I pointed out earlier: They're looking for trouble - Which can mean a lot of things. They go in there looking for spice, they go in there looking for specific people to handle certain jobs of discretion for them, they go in there hoping to deal with things that aren't kosher with the law, etc. Or boredom, curiosity spurred on by OOCness to check out the bad side of town, because what sort of person that doesn't come from the slums would go to the slums anyway (unless for the above 'looking for trouble' reason)?
If you're talking about 'spice', then this is already handled by PCs, and should continue be handled by PCs because that promotes interaction. I feel that if we keep encouraging NPC merchants, then we decrease the opportunity to interact for things.
(Edited for an extra word that I just randomly spotted in there. Go figure.)
Quote from: Kankfly on November 06, 2016, 10:30:18 AM
Except the Byn don't go into the rinth.
I see what you're getting at, but I don't think the Mantis is a suitable location. The rinth isn't ever meant to be visited by casual curious people who want to hang out and chill. That function is already covered by the Gaj. Unless, like I pointed out earlier: They're looking for trouble - Which can mean a lot of things. They go in there looking for spice, they go in there looking for specific people to handle certain jobs of discretion for them, they go in there hoping to deal with things that aren't kosher with the law, etc. Or boredom, curiosity spurred on by OOCness to check out the bad side of town, because what sort of person that doesn't come from the slums would go to the slums anyway (unless for the above 'looking for trouble' reason)?
If you're talking about 'spice', then this is already handled by PCs, and should continue be handled by PCs because that promotes interaction. I feel that if we keep encouraging NPC merchants, then we decrease the opportunity to interact for things.
(Edited for an extra word that I just randomly spotted in there. Go figure.)
I disagree. A large swath of the Rinthi population are supposed to be spice-heads, people down on their luck and unable to afford living in Allanak proper. Yes, many of the people in the Labyrinth are born and die there. In fact, I like to play Rinthers that rarely go Southside, or if they do, only for a limited time, and would never set foot in something as fancy as an apartment. However, the 'tenements' are supposedly populated by immigrants for lack of a better word. Having the Mantis accessible actually, in my mind, creates a deeper background and capability for Southsiders to not only interact with the Labyrinth, but to create that funneled desire/outlet for the grains of spice given out like drops of water to someone dying of thirst.
The Labyrinth is made out to be this walled off 'Forbidden City', which it is in a sense due to PC reactions (Byn can never go to the Labyrinth, ew the Labyrinth). But as I mention above, yes, people go to the Labyrinth to score drugs and probably get cheap hookers and for the black market. These things need to be played up, not played down, in my opinion. The Rinth shouldn't be a destination, but it should be a red light district (at least in the Middles). Growing up in Los Angeles, you get an idea of what areas are 'Gangland' and what areas are not. It's street by street in some places, and especially at night some areas that are fairly mundane become rather dangerous if you aren't paying attention. But we should also point out that things like 'Eastside is Elves Only' and "Westside is Humans Only' is a fairly recent PC spin on things. It wasn't always that way, just as the Labyrinth wasn't 'Off Limits to Southsiders'. And I don't think it should be. I think the Mantis is exactly the place that Southsiders should go to as a destination -- For Drugs, for cheap sex, for gambling, for shady jobs.
Is it about Spice? Not exactly, but it makes perfect sense in my mind why the Mantis would be open to Southsiders and Rinthers alike, in the 'No Man's Land' of the Middles.
In a meta sense, it is about homogenizing the criminal and less savory elements of Allanak. What stands out more to me like a sore thumb is Rinthers hanging out in the Gaj, because they are starved for interaction. Allowing for the Mantis to be a watering hole for both Rinthers and Nakkis looking to score a pinch (or a job), makes much more sense in a game design sense.
When you talk about Spice existing in the PC realm -- It's a pipe dream. Yes, when PCs are around and they are dealing spice, it's great. But the 'in practice' of Spice is it will always have an NPC element to it. I won't get into the nitty gritty of the IC stuff, but when there are PCs around smuggling spice, it's great. When there aren't, it comes to a complete standstill. It's absolutely annoying. Spice needs to be more common, not less. And I don't mean common as in 'Not Illegal', but it's like...When there isn't even a supply train coming in, who cares that it is illegal? It's like making Cocaine illegal but there isn't actually any cocaine anywhere that people are regularly snorting/turning into crack. It's a non-issue, if people don't even have an iota of access.
While the documentation says southsiders and businesspersons often take their business underground, into the rinth, away from the watchful eye of insatiably greedy Templars, trying to do this very thing can result in local PCs enforcing the current perception of the rinth, which is, in part, aided by NPCs in numerous locations, the details of which I won't divulge. If there were a slightly less dangerous, but not entirely permissive, entrance to the Mantis, this could go a long way toward encouraging the current documentation... otherwise, may as well just rewrite the current documentation to go with continual PC enforcement, but I'm not really a huge fan of that route.
It could really kick up interest in the rinth, by providing an RP outlet to players who may, perhaps, otherwise be too intimidated to indulge in some greasebag RP, and they may consider rolling a future PC up in the rinth. I can see the benefits of this. I can also see the benefits of moving the Gaj closer to the Arena, as this would make it less of a slog for your average slimeball/low-tier merchant house employee, while still not parking it right next door. Someone pointed out people have limited time to play the game, and when you heap schedules on top of it, it makes that long slog even less enticing, as you'll frequently have to turn around almost as soon as you get there. As I've noticed, many people are finding it somewhat absurd players are hidden away in compounds or apartments at peak and make central cultural locations feel unnaturally empty, and I think making the place more practical to the intended market share would do some to relieve this particular phenomena.
I would keep the Gaj apartments as they currently are, either with a new bartender, or maybe just some low-class market in the downstairs room, and in the new Gaj also put apartments, and scalable walls and what have you. I, personally, see little lost, indeed, much opportunity for soliciting player RP, with a new location. The alternative would be to shorten the streets, but that seems like it'd be a fairly heavy amount of work, and I get the sneaking suspicion that in some points, this has been done, but it's purely anecdotal evidence from my fuzzy newb memories when everything seemed bigger than it really was.
(on top of that I just got an idea for a bitchin' PC I won't discuss because I'm about to write up an app for it right now, it's very vaugely related to certain subject matters at hand)
I don't have much of an opinion either way on adding new taverns/opening mantis side of things.
I just want to chime in and say I think The idea of fighting pits in the Gaj would be awesome.
One of my biggest annoyances is tavern brawlers, sure it can be fun. But it rarely ever settles
any real disputes. When it's just a big 'for the hell of it, freindly brawl' type thing, sure it's fun.
but sometimes two PC's really have beef with each other, and fisticuffs just isn't enough. Or
you have the 'loser' of the brawl still not learn their lesson and smugly brush off their asskicking because
'Just a dumb tavern fight, it doesnt prove anything, in a real fight I'd kick your ass' I'd love to be able to
be like 'Oh yeah, let's see about that' And invite them to the bloodpits to settle it once and for all.
Quote from: Reiloth on November 06, 2016, 12:48:35 PM
In a meta sense, it is about homogenizing the criminal and less savory elements of Allanak. What stands out more to me like a sore thumb is Rinthers hanging out in the Gaj, because they are starved for interaction. Allowing for the Mantis to be a watering hole for both Rinthers and Nakkis looking to score a pinch (or a job), makes much more sense in a game design sense.
This is an excellent explanation of why I thought it was a good idea.
Quote from: Reiloth on November 06, 2016, 12:48:35 PM
Reiloth said a heap of stuff...
Best explination I feel. Nailed it. Completely agree.
I'd also like to see apartments in the rinth, adding more shops, so on, but that's probably another topic I'm not gonna get into right now.
Silver ginka -> Give rentable apartments/offices -> You will see people sitting in there sipping their northerner tea
Quote from: Cabooze on November 06, 2016, 05:32:02 PM
Silver ginka -> Give rentable apartments/offices -> You will see people sitting in there sipping their northerner tea
Honestly, you won't. Most people who frequent the Gaj never buy a thing, and even fewer buy anything at Red's. Tea is already available at the Gaj, and it's only a rare PC who ever buys it.
The cost of the food at Red's is the main thing I feel makes it feel more upper-class than it should. If the prices were cut or a couple of cheaper food items added I could see it working a little better. I've NEVER seen someone buy food at Red's, save myself, and I used the wrong keyword, as I was trying to buy a drink.
Quote from: Reiloth on November 06, 2016, 12:48:35 PMThe Labyrinth is made out to be this walled off 'Forbidden City', which it is in a sense due to PC reactions (Byn can never go to the Labyrinth, ew the Labyrinth). But as I mention above, yes, people go to the Labyrinth to score drugs and probably get cheap hookers and for the black market. [...] I think the Mantis is exactly the place that Southsiders should go to as a destination -- For Drugs, for cheap sex, for gambling, for shady jobs.
Is it about Spice? Not exactly, but it makes perfect sense in my mind why the Mantis would be open to Southsiders and Rinthers alike, in the 'No Man's Land' of the Middles.
But what you're talking about is actually changing the dynamics of how the city works as a whole, rather then what is currently true.
Because currently, the Labyrinth is a lawless place that soldiers stay out of, where you'll be killed if you have even something remotely valuable looking on you. It's a vicious, dangerous place. The reason that many clans don't let their people go there is not some arbitrarily PC-generated reason. It's because it's legitimately deadly, and you don't want your clan members dying.
I'd also add that nobody in their right mind would want to kank a 'rinthi whore over a poor southside whore, because the odds of getting some horrible disease are that much higher (even if this is only a virtual risk).
QuoteIn a meta sense, it is about homogenizing the criminal and less savory elements of Allanak. What stands out more to me like a sore thumb is Rinthers hanging out in the Gaj, because they are starved for interaction. Allowing for the Mantis to be a watering hole for both Rinthers and Nakkis looking to score a pinch (or a job), makes much more sense in a game design sense.
Your post details why 'rinthi are actually just down on their luck Allanaki. Why is it awkward for a 'rinthi to be in the Gaj (which is one of the seediest bars in the entire Known), but not awkward for a southsider to be in the Mantis? I'd argue that a 'rinthi has a lot more legitimate reasons to be in the Gaj then a southsider has to be in the 'rinth.
QuoteWhen you talk about Spice existing in the PC realm -- It's a pipe dream. Yes, when PCs are around and they are dealing spice, it's great. But the 'in practice' of Spice is it will always have an NPC element to it. I won't get into the nitty gritty of the IC stuff, but when there are PCs around smuggling spice, it's great. When there aren't, it comes to a complete standstill. It's absolutely annoying. Spice needs to be more common, not less. And I don't mean common as in 'Not Illegal', but it's like...When there isn't even a supply train coming in, who cares that it is illegal? It's like making Cocaine illegal but there isn't actually any cocaine anywhere that people are regularly snorting/turning into crack. It's a non-issue, if people don't even have an iota of access.
Yeah, but getting spice should be something that's fairly dangerous and risky, right? Because there are ways to get spice as a southsider now... But there's some risk involved.
There's more then one clan out there that deals with spice and making it available. If it's not working effectively, then I would say that a large portion of it is due to Arm's decreased playerbase. Looking at 'rezoning' to make it more effective could be an option for how to make spice-related crime (smuggling or obtaining) more viable.
Quote from: Dunetrade55 on November 06, 2016, 01:52:21 PMWhile the documentation says southsiders and businesspersons often take their business underground, into the rinth, away from the watchful eye of insatiably greedy Templars, trying to do this very thing can result in local PCs enforcing the current perception of the rinth, which is, in part, aided by NPCs in numerous locations, the details of which I won't divulge. If there were a slightly less dangerous, but not entirely permissive, entrance to the Mantis, this could go a long way toward encouraging the current documentation... otherwise, may as well just rewrite the current documentation to go with continual PC enforcement, but I'm not really a huge fan of that route.
Could you provide links to where the documentation says this?
I took a look, but the only documentation I found said that the 'rinth is an extremely dangerous place.
Take a look: (emphasis mine)
Quote
Labyrinth (Cities) (http://armageddon.org/help/view/Labyrinth)
The Labyrinth (or rinth) is the common slang term used for the northernmost quarter of the city of Allanak, due to its maze of alleyways that thread about the ramshackle buildings within it. Once it was merely the quarter for the lower classes of Allanak. But, over the last several hundred years as the rich became progressively richer and the poor, poorer the quarter has degenerated into a decayed and disease ridden slum.
In recent days, the 'rinth has become more than just the home to the desperate, the unwanted, or racially undesirable. Generations of its inhabitants have been born, lived and died in Tektolnes' chamber- pot of human life. Now, not only do the general citizenry of Allanak avoid this dark ghetto, but the militia of the city dare not enter as well.
The Labyrinth has formed its own culture of sorts, apart from the rest of the city. Racial or purely random violence is a common occurrence. Street gangs roam wild in the winding alleyways, looking for the lone and unsuspecting. Packs of children have been known to kill the unwary for nothing more than the hopes of a scrap of food. And darker, more unsavory organizations have embraced the chaos and turmoil of the rinth and made it their home.
Some clips from the overall page:
Quote
Labyrinth Details (What You Know) (http://armageddon.org/help/view/Labyrinth%20Details)
Society:
If you're from the Labyrinth, your character has occupied a position of abject poverty and squalor for all of his or her life. Hunger and violence (racial or purely random) has been a daily occurence. Disease perpetually stalks the streets. Your character knows that street gangs roam wild in the winding alleyways, looking for the lone and unsuspecting, and that packs of children have been known to kill the unwary for nothing more than the hope of a scrap of food. In short, life in the 'rinth has been a difficult test for your character. There is no rule to creating a 'rinther character's personality but the above should be reflected when creating their history and characteristics.
It is important to note that due to the rough conditions in the 'rinth many people (both PC and NPC) might not wish you well. People living there are desperate and may try to take advantage of you. Don't let this discourage you - part of being a 'rinther lies in the challenge of dealing with and overcoming this harshness. Thinking, dressing and acting like a 'rinther will greatly help you in this regard.
Given the above, it is no surprise that the average 'rinther will generally treat a fellow inhabitant of the alleys with considerable suspicion and mistrust upon first meeting them. This attitude is often magnified when a Westsider meets an Eastsider or vice versa. However, this Westside - Eastside mutual suspicion would probably not be as great as a situation where a 'rinther meets a person who is not from the alleys. All other things being equal, a 'rinther would be more likely to side with another 'rinther than somebody not from the alleys. However, this "bond" is loose at best and, as a 'rinther, not one you'd like to have to depend on.
The 'rinth is more than just a home to Allanak's desperate, unwanted, or racially undesirable people. Many generations of inhabitants of the 'rinth have been born, lived and died in Tektolnes' chamber-pot of human life. It is common knowledge that darker, more unsavoury organizations have embraced the chaos and turmoil of the 'rinth and made it their home. This, coupled with the fact that the general citizenry and militia of Allanak avoid this dark ghetto, has given most 'rinthers an insular "them vs. us" attitude. A person not from the 'rinth found wandering the alleys would be viewed with a deal of suspicion. After all, why would any sane person willingly come into such a filthy and dangerous place? This semi-isolation from the rest of the city also leaves the average 'rinther with, at best, a scant knowledge of what's what outside the 'rinth. The doings of noble houses, merchant houses, templars, etc. are of little meaning to most 'rinthers, whose chief concerns are getting food in their bellies and staying alive.
Quote
Allanak (Cities)
Allanak is possibly the richest single civilization in the Known World,
in total wealth. This prosperity is, however, very unevenly distributed
across the population. The life of the average Allanaki citizen is one of
strife--expensive and degenerate living conditions, coupled with a nearly
omnipotent ruler who watches every move his subjects make. The nobility
live in opulent splendor, as do the templar servants of the city-state's
king, the Highlord Tektolnes.
The city occupies the central part of the Southlands region once known
as Vrun Driath, and is surrounded by desert and wastelands on all sides.
Food supplies come from numerous small farming villages in the area, as
well as from Red Storm East. Allanak is the foremost source of obsidian
armor and weaponry in the Known World, controlling its own obsidian
mines some distance west of the city.
For all its richness, the economy of Allanak is typically undergoing
wild fluctuations and is under much strain. Wrote Tektolnes's Senior
Templar (and bastard child) Cohran, "His Gloriousness's recent attempt to
purify the minds of his people by banning the trade of the spice will
certainly have grave ramifications on the well-being of the average man."
And so it appeared to have been: with merchants murdered in the night and
secret dealings in dark alleys, much of the Allanaki economy has moved
underground, the result being that many more honest merchants have been
driven out of business, and the general prosperity has declined. While the
banning of spice was made many years ago now, its repercussions are still
felt in the modern style of Allanaki trade.
The city is divided into several Quarters. While most citizens are free
to come and go as they will, three sections of the city are worthy of
special mention: the Templars' Quarter, the Nobles' Quarter, and the
Labyrinth. The Templars' and Nobles' Quarters are open only to the nobility
and the Templarate of Allanak, and to their servants and slaves. The
Labyrinth (often referred to as the 'rinth) is home to most of Allanak's
criminal population, and most citizens avoid it like the plague. Strangely
enough, the 'rinth is also where many of the city's small to medium-sized
business contracts are negotiated, now that much of the economy has gone
underground.
Every whim of Highlord Tektolnes instantly becomes Allanaki law, and his
templar soldier-priests enforce it with brutal efficiency. The nobles of
the city are the Highlord's puppets, their lives spent gathering popular
support and serving in a Senate whose decisions are somehow always in
perfect accord with His Gloriousness's latest decree. Some of the more
commonly known of the noble houses are: Borsail, Tor, Oash, Fale, and
Rennik.
think he's referring to that?
It's more that the documentation was written and edited by one or two people and didn't really account for like...Where people come from? And that people go to bad parts of town for sex and drugs? If you think Zalanthans are concerned with or believe in STDs, I think you are projecting modern sensibilities. The idea of disease transfer by saliva semen and blood is a relatively new discovery. We're talking about people who blame magic sooner than science.
More later, typing with my thumb.
Thanks for the unexpected backup, Cabbage, yes, that is exactly what I was referring to... now I don't have to dig for it.
Quote from: Reiloth on November 06, 2016, 12:48:35 PM
Quote from: Kankfly on November 06, 2016, 10:30:18 AM
Except the Byn don't go into the rinth.
I see what you're getting at, but I don't think the Mantis is a suitable location. The rinth isn't ever meant to be visited by casual curious people who want to hang out and chill. That function is already covered by the Gaj. Unless, like I pointed out earlier: They're looking for trouble - Which can mean a lot of things. They go in there looking for spice, they go in there looking for specific people to handle certain jobs of discretion for them, they go in there hoping to deal with things that aren't kosher with the law, etc. Or boredom, curiosity spurred on by OOCness to check out the bad side of town, because what sort of person that doesn't come from the slums would go to the slums anyway (unless for the above 'looking for trouble' reason)?
If you're talking about 'spice', then this is already handled by PCs, and should continue be handled by PCs because that promotes interaction. I feel that if we keep encouraging NPC merchants, then we decrease the opportunity to interact for things.
(Edited for an extra word that I just randomly spotted in there. Go figure.)
I disagree. A large swath of the Rinthi population are supposed to be spice-heads, people down on their luck and unable to afford living in Allanak proper. Yes, many of the people in the Labyrinth are born and die there. In fact, I like to play Rinthers that rarely go Southside, or if they do, only for a limited time, and would never set foot in something as fancy as an apartment. However, the 'tenements' are supposedly populated by immigrants for lack of a better word. Having the Mantis accessible actually, in my mind, creates a deeper background and capability for Southsiders to not only interact with the Labyrinth, but to create that funneled desire/outlet for the grains of spice given out like drops of water to someone dying of thirst.
The Labyrinth is made out to be this walled off 'Forbidden City', which it is in a sense due to PC reactions (Byn can never go to the Labyrinth, ew the Labyrinth). But as I mention above, yes, people go to the Labyrinth to score drugs and probably get cheap hookers and for the black market. These things need to be played up, not played down, in my opinion. The Rinth shouldn't be a destination, but it should be a red light district (at least in the Middles). Growing up in Los Angeles, you get an idea of what areas are 'Gangland' and what areas are not. It's street by street in some places, and especially at night some areas that are fairly mundane become rather dangerous if you aren't paying attention. But we should also point out that things like 'Eastside is Elves Only' and "Westside is Humans Only' is a fairly recent PC spin on things. It wasn't always that way, just as the Labyrinth wasn't 'Off Limits to Southsiders'. And I don't think it should be. I think the Mantis is exactly the place that Southsiders should go to as a destination -- For Drugs, for cheap sex, for gambling, for shady jobs.
Is it about Spice? Not exactly, but it makes perfect sense in my mind why the Mantis would be open to Southsiders and Rinthers alike, in the 'No Man's Land' of the Middles.
In a meta sense, it is about homogenizing the criminal and less savory elements of Allanak. What stands out more to me like a sore thumb is Rinthers hanging out in the Gaj, because they are starved for interaction. Allowing for the Mantis to be a watering hole for both Rinthers and Nakkis looking to score a pinch (or a job), makes much more sense in a game design sense.
When you talk about Spice existing in the PC realm -- It's a pipe dream. Yes, when PCs are around and they are dealing spice, it's great. But the 'in practice' of Spice is it will always have an NPC element to it. I won't get into the nitty gritty of the IC stuff, but when there are PCs around smuggling spice, it's great. When there aren't, it comes to a complete standstill. It's absolutely annoying. Spice needs to be more common, not less. And I don't mean common as in 'Not Illegal', but it's like...When there isn't even a supply train coming in, who cares that it is illegal? It's like making Cocaine illegal but there isn't actually any cocaine anywhere that people are regularly snorting/turning into crack. It's a non-issue, if people don't even have an iota of access.
What you're suggesting will incentivize another major PC hub across the other side of the city. Most of the discussion in the thread has been about pulling the hubs closer together.
Your ideas are cool and valid, but we don't want to drive people to yet another destination they can tavern sit in the game.
Quote from: evilcabbage on November 06, 2016, 08:08:51 PM
Quote
Allanak (Cities)
The city is divided into several Quarters. While most citizens are free to come and go as they will, three sections of the city are worthy of special mention: the Templars' Quarter, the Nobles' Quarter, and the Labyrinth. The Templars' and Nobles' Quarters are open only to the nobility and the Templarate of Allanak, and to their servants and slaves. The Labyrinth (often referred to as the 'rinth) is home to most of Allanak's criminal population, and most citizens avoid it like the plague. Strangely enough, the 'rinth is also where many of the city's small to medium-sized business contracts are negotiated, now that much of the economy has gone underground.
think he's referring to that?
I changed the bolding to encompass the entire section before the one you pointed out, because it seems like the majority of citizens still think it's nuts to go into the 'rinth.
I would presume, having established that the majority of the Labryinthi are criminals, that a large number of the contracts mentioned are illegal. This would match with the "underground economy" probably referring to spice or other illegal things.
Even the established danger of the 'rinth, and the agreement that most people are avoiding it, it probably wouldn't be crazy to assume that anybody going there for these business contracts has some sort of protection agreement with the 'rinthi powers that be.
Quote from: Reiloth on November 06, 2016, 08:11:05 PM
It's more that the documentation was written and edited by one or two people and didn't really account for like...Where people come from? And that people go to bad parts of town for sex and drugs? If you think Zalanthans are concerned with or believe in STDs, I think you are projecting modern sensibilities. The idea of disease transfer by saliva semen and blood is a relatively new discovery. We're talking about people who blame magic sooner than science.
More later, typing with my thumb.
No, there's actually an IC basis for knowing that there are diseases transmitted sexually. Zangu-la (crotch rot) is a commonly-known sexually transmitted disease:
QuoteZagu-La (Disease) (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Zagu-La)
A person suffering from any number of the symptoms of genital itching, pus filled urine, irritating groin rash, or genital sores is generally said to have Zagu-La. Also called Crotch Rot by the lowest classes, this extraordinarily common affliction is spread sexually, and, some scholars and physicians argue, is likely Zalanthas's most prevalent ailment. There are almost as many treatments to prevent or cure this self limited condition as there are sands in the Red Desert, particularly among those in the sex trade. The measures include various charmed body tattoos, wooden talismans, and in Allanak the practice of eating one rotten fruit a week.
That's why you'll ICly encounter references to the quality of whores and if they're clean or not, as well.
i realize that this is somewhat off topic, but on the subject of venues, trade, and sex in particular - the food rot code (spoiled fruit) can now be used for those who want to rp the one rotten fruit a week thing.
Just a note here:
My understanding is that most of the Labyrinth's citizens are not criminals, but most of Allanak's criminals reside in the Labyrinth. Most of the Labyrinth's citizens are dead broke and can't afford to live anywhere else. Among these lost souls hide most of Allanak's criminal element.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on November 07, 2016, 12:47:47 AM
Just a note here:
My understanding is that most of the Labyrinth's citizens are not criminals, but most of Allanak's criminals reside in the Labyrinth. Most of the Labyrinth's citizens are dead broke and can't afford to live anywhere else. Among these lost souls hide most of Allanak's criminal element.
Ding ding ding, we have a winner.
Quote from: Reiloth on November 07, 2016, 01:05:14 AM
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on November 07, 2016, 12:47:47 AM
Just a note here:
My understanding is that most of the Labyrinth's citizens are not criminals, but most of Allanak's criminals reside in the Labyrinth. Most of the Labyrinth's citizens are dead broke and can't afford to live anywhere else. Among these lost souls hide most of Allanak's criminal element.
Ding ding ding, we have a winner.
The Labyrinth is full of desperate, destitute people, most if not all of whom would stab someone for a pair of boots, a handful of 'sid, or some food. Are most actively engaged in Guild-level activities that involve high-level assassinations, spice smuggling, and extortion? No, of course not.
Are a notable portion of 'Rinthi involved with various gangs who run territories, either actively involved in questing to take people's things, or paying a tribute--based on any money they can scrounge--to those gangs? I think that virtually speaking, it's pretty likely. In terms of PCs, there's not really a full enough population to represent that.
Quote from: Reiloth on November 07, 2016, 01:05:14 AM
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on November 07, 2016, 12:47:47 AM
Just a note here:
My understanding is that most of the Labyrinth's citizens are not criminals, but most of Allanak's criminals reside in the Labyrinth. Most of the Labyrinth's citizens are dead broke and can't afford to live anywhere else. Among these lost souls hide most of Allanak's criminal element.
Ding ding ding, we have a winner.
Wait, I'm super confused by what your point is anymore.
We were discussing the fact that we shouldn't be stretching out the gameworld further than we need to, which was brought up after a few people said we need more taverns opened.
Do some non-criminal folks go and hang out at the Mantis? Uh sure, maybe? Probably?
Do we want to actually bring to life that vNPC population so that we can have more PCs go play at the Mantis? No, I don't think so.
Quote from: Evilone on November 06, 2016, 05:21:26 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on November 06, 2016, 12:48:35 PM
Reiloth said a heap of stuff...
Best explination I feel. Nailed it. Completely agree.
I'd also like to see apartments in the rinth, adding more shops, so on, but that's probably another topic I'm not gonna get into right now.
If the rinth was a little more 'livable' in a way, maybe with coded ways to stay in the rinth and make money for food there, and a few more shops, a set of apartments on either side, I think that would be great. Right now you got rinthis hunting, salting etc. and everyone turns a blind eye because they know there's no options for nonhumans and maybe one or two options for humans to make a living, both of which require certain guild/subguild combinations and being gud.
In my limited 'rinth experience, it's the most boring thing in all of the Known. There's 30 or so rooms you can IC exist in, bucket crab NPC's who will kill you if you find a nice pair of shoes, and hardly any other players to interact with ever.
Except when there were other players, they were roleplaying cannibals who molested and ate children ('rinthi orphans) in order to IC justify their OOC mass slaughter of the 'rinth inhabitants. You spend half of your time looking for someone to interact with and then the other half of your time trying to get away from who you found.
It was enjoyable to roleplay a scumbag 'rinthi from the 'rinth, but not to rolepay a 'rinthi IN the 'rinth.
Quote from: Miradus on November 07, 2016, 10:14:17 AM
In my limited 'rinth experience, it's the most boring thing in all of the Known. There's 30 or so rooms you can IC exist in, bucket crab NPC's who will kill you if you find a nice pair of shoes, and hardly any other players to interact with ever.
Except when there were other players, they were roleplaying cannibals who molested and ate children ('rinthi orphans) in order to IC justify their OOC mass slaughter of the 'rinth inhabitants. You spend half of your time looking for someone to interact with and then the other half of your time trying to get away from who you found.
It was enjoyable to roleplay a scumbag 'rinthi from the 'rinth, but not to rolepay a 'rinthi IN the 'rinth.
That sounds awesome! But yeah, the great thing about the rinth as an option is you can either
1. play someone in the rinth (which I quite enjoy -- the crazy cannibal or the primitive sewer dweller)
2. or play someone from the rinth trying to get out.
In my personal experience, the crazy cannibal child-killing asshole gets hunted down and dumped for coins for a kebob. It's not that everyone cares about the dead children, it's that some personalities are too dangerous to let grow into the crazy cannibal adult killing asshole, for whom you might be the next meal. Hardly a hard and fast rule, depending on alliances, but playing like a feckless twink in the rinth can get you dumped.
My point (whoa the GDB looks weird) is that the demographic of the Labyrinth is a little more complex than Players make it out to be, or have made it out to be over the years. The Eastside has half-elves and even humans (!!!) squatting in tenements. The Westside has Elves and Half-Elves and Dwarves and so on. I think understanding how gang politics works (caught in the wrong territory without colors, flagrant actions in territory known to belong to another gang, etc) is required to get the nuance here. Can an Elf just wander into the Folley and sit down? Uh, probably not, unless they have a reason to be there. But they aren't just going to be dragged outside and shanked for being an Elf. They might be told to leave, and if they don't, they're stepping on toes, and suddenly there's a very good reason to stab them.
The second part of this point is Southsiders in the Labyrinth. Yes, no one in their 'right mind' would go to the Labyrinth for a vacation, to take in the wonderful views of the Gan Zein Marketplace and go on a tour of the Middles. However, we need to recognize that a large part of the virtual population (which is something we need to take into account as Players) is transplants. People who don't want to be in the Labyrinth, but don't have any other choice, and guess what -- They come from Allanak.
When I mention this -- It's because I have seen the part of the documentation (which I think is a little absurd) of 'enemies of my enemies is my friendz' with Southsiders, without even questioning why a Southsider might be there. I've played Rinthers that were 'transplants' from Allanak, and any Southsider is automatically assumed to be a spy or working for a Noble. This sort of black and white world is not only boring, it's transparent in its binary boringness. The assumption that anyone from Allanak proper is a spy or doesn't belong in the Labyrinth is absurd. Spice-heads, tourists looking for a cheap fuck or to score something from the black market, or rub elbows with the criminal elements, are all perfectly valid reasons for non-Rinthers to be in the Labyrinth. Taking the spice-head aspect even further, many people don't make it back out to Allanak, ala Opium Dens and that whole rigamaroll. There's NPC evidence of this around the Labyrinth.
By opening the Mantis to Southsiders, you are basically saying 'We understand that people from Allanak go to the Labyrinth for these reasons'. You also, OOCly, smush two groups of people together -- The degenerates from Allanak, and the degenerates from the Labyrinth. You aren't opening a new Tavern, you are widening the demographic of an existing Tavern.
The documentation you pointed out seems to have been written by one person who didn't really play in the Labyrinth and just heard about it and how it should work. Sorry -- Just my personal opinion. Making things less Black and White in the Labyrinth would make it a more desirable place to play.
Drawing RL comparison, there are plenty of 'Good People' who go to 'Bad Neighborhoods' for various reasons. Drugs, prostitution, illegal activity with less oversight, and so on. The Labyrinth suffers from being a walled off forbidden zone, rather than just 'the wrong side of town', which I think would be far more interesting.
To answer some things Gravity said:
QuoteWhy in the Known would a Rinth bar knowingly open an entrance to a mercenary faction which clearly does heaps of work for nobility/GMHs/other influential clans? And from the other side, there is zero reason the Byn would want to open their back door to the Rinth just to save their guys a longer walk into town for booze...
The Byn are mercenaries. Most of the business people in the alleys are mercenaries as well. Assuming 'big business' of the labyrinth is a rebel state of the city is the number 1 thing I hate about the documentation, because it makes it sound as though you, as a 'rinther, should never do business. The money of the city is from southside. The power of the city is from southside. Those are the people you do business with to make profit. You enforce your turf, sure, but that's more of a concern when the people -actually want your turf-. The T'zai Byn are no different than any service-selling faction of the Narrows.
Did you know the Guild Bar was at one point solely guarded by T'zai Byn mercenaries? It was a standing contract. While Byn Runners are disallowed from entering the alleys, that's a rule made because the little shits couldn't resist going up there out of boredom to kill muggers and get themselves killed, as well as piss off the locals. Responsible Troopers and contracts were always a separate deal, before, but that was cut out due to people taking it to the extreme, and less exposed players taking that as 'the norm' when that extremist happened to live a long time. That was a long time ago, and it's disheartening because no attempts to remind of the contrary, or of how the city sensibly works, or of how the history documentation describes the downfall of the labyrinth into squalor, can convince people to be anything other than a shitlord up there.
Quote2. Why would the west-side or east-side factions allow a neutral location to cut them out of the spice trade, when they have their direct contacts already?
The Mantis started off as a Kuraci-run bar. While that ownership was revoked, the role never changed; Westside and eastside don't run the spice game, the Mantis does. It always has. Just because west and east fight over it and entrepreneur over it doesn't mean either one of them ever actually ran it.
Quote3. Why would the rest of the Rinth want their neutral bar flooded with hundreds of new patrons so they can come get their spice fix and mingle with the criminals?
I'm afraid that doesn't make much sense. The middle area of the 'rinth is race-neutral as things stand. While you're likely to run into PC muggers, I think you need to realize that PC 'rinthers run into PC muggers too. That's the alleys, not who's in it. It's not as if the non-rebellion labyrinth would suddenly become rebels because more people were getting wine in one of their bars.
Mostly, realize that 'rinthers don't trust southsiders. It's not because they're trying to become their own fortress-labyrinth, or because they're actively fighting authority. It's because the perception is that the city proper -doesn't give a shit about them-, because they don't. They were allowed to drop into squalor, they had violence start breaking out...and the city actively pulled back its troops rather than helping them. As a result, the gangs came to a rise to start enforcing alley justice. They became the ones the average 'rinthi trusted to have their interests at heart. Whenever a soldier comes in, it's not a foreign invasion of 'THEY'RE TRYING TO ATTACK OUR ALLEYS!'. It's a 'Fuck off, soldier, you guys left. We don't need you anymore, and you don't want it. You aren't supposed to be here.' The labyrinth went through a period of tumultuous violent chaos and settled into the easy 'peace' that it's in now, where they enforce it themselves. The southsiders haven't been part of that struggle that is the alley life, and don't know what it is to have to bite sand and pride to survive...and thus, alley folk have a connection with each other more than they do with the south. But that's not -war-.
The fact is that the bit about soldiers in the alleys is true; they're -not- supposed to be there. If at any point the templarate decided 'We're retaking the labyrinth by force', the labyrinth would be opened right back up into the city. The labyrinth cannot fight the Arm. Everytime I see the 'declare war on southside' mentality, I cringe. That's an equivalence of some new york city slum declaring war on the National Guard. Everyone knows that's not going well. That doesn't prevent riots and crimes of passion and territorial nature with roaming police officers going where they're told not to roam, but it -does- remind them that they're still part of the city at large and connected...which is why business goes the way it goes (or should go, if people would remember the above things). But the city doesn't want the alleys back, or they'd take them.
Anyway. The muggers were put in there specifically awhile back because people were blatantly ignoring the world of the labyrinth and running around in whatever gear they wanted and not bothering to try and fit the alleys, and just going up there decked out in armor to kill npc's when there were no pc's around to act as 'concerned citizens'. It's a longstanding behavior that because the alleys are not patrolled by soldiers, that people up there should be psychopaths who just up and kill people for little to no reason, while even by documentation, this behavior is outright hated. I get amused when people complain about the work of concerned citizens of the alleys; if you cause trouble up there, you're going to get trouble back.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
tl;dr
A lot of assertions about the alleys here are honest interpretations, but they don't fit into the game world or the game history. There's nothing wrong with southsiders going to the alleys to drink, but they should expect whatever trouble they invite, to a mildly increased degree from people who actually live there. In the alleys, the southsider is treated like the half-elf or elf is elsewhere. Perhaps not with violence, but with a fair amount of disapproval and distaste until they overcome and prove they're worth knowing. As a result of all the above knowledge of the labyrinth, though, I don't see any problems with the Mantis becoming a direct access route under the conditions stated, and perhaps it would make people stop treating the alleys the way they have for the past like...-eight years-, which is a shitty rendition of murder and mayhem for little to no reason. Instead, maybe they'll see a place to find easy labor (poor mercenaries, essentially) and make connections with people who don't particularly care about the hierarchy of the city, because it doesn't really care about them either. I do, however, agree with Ath, and think that such changes would be IC endeavors, not OOC ones.
QuoteThe documentation you pointed out seems to have been written by one person who didn't really play in the Labyrinth and just heard about it and how it should work. Sorry -- Just my personal opinion.
I admit to having some problems with it when that 'What you Know' page was first written, but didn't think in the long term enough to contest it; I thought people would just use it as a loose guideline for new characters, not as a letter of the law of how people had to play to be there.
I'm not usually in agreement with Reiloth, but on this, I am.
Maybe this is getting lost - and I concede to those with better knowledge of the Rinth than me - but to clarify my point:
Just because the Mantis should have people from southside there doesn't mean we have to bring that vNPC population to life and split the player base further to yet another tavern on the other side of the city.
Armaddict: the one point of yours I will address is the first one about T'zai Byn in the Rinth.
We can now assume that there is no vNPC Byn population in the Rinth, in any of the taverns, due to the rules put in place by the Byn.
The point stands that with these rules in place, there's absolutely no reason they would want to change that. You also make the assumption that those rules were put in place because mercenaries went "up there out of boredom to kill muggers and get themselves killed", when really there could have been several reasons behind the scenes you weren't aware of. Suffice to say, I don't see it being likely the Byn would change their minds on that. Why? It's a huge distraction, and the Byn wants its guys focusing on extracting work from one single location: the Gaj. Southside. Sergeants and above are left to handle contracts with the Rinth.
In short: I just don't see it making sense that 1. we should actually open this up as another social hub of the game more than it already is and 2. if we did I just don't see the Byn being allowed to partake.
No, actually, you don't even have to be familiar with the actual history to deduce why the rinth is shut off to so many. You can simply look at human behavior and judge. Rinthis are RPing greaseball rinthi shit with some murder added to spice things up every so often, which is cool and legit and stuff, because most of te rinthis I've ever played with have shown a good deal of respect for the virtual environment and potential consequences of actions. Then, you have your standard gamer, who may be new to RPIs, who's still adjusting from hack'n slash twinkish behavior. This is not hack'n slash, there's no levels to be gained and your coded skills pale in the face of what a well-connected player can do to you.
The biggest chunk of these wind up in the newbie concentration camp known as the T'zai Byn. I know, because I was once one of those newbies, but eager to learn to RP and not to rack up kills or whatever. Some are not like this and sadly, these examples stand out the most among newbies. Squeeky wheel gets the grease. A lot of people glance at rinth documentation and all they see is "Murderzone free for all", this is disruptive to rinthi plots and immersion breaking, and needs to stop. After enough of this, you end up with "Yes, this is Murderzone, but it's not a free for all deathmatch tournament" from players, and eventually staff trying to keep things legit. So, the virtual environment is made automatically manifest in the form of NPC muggers and mugger crews, to keep it all legit.
You even see it these days, not from clans so much, and not even newbies. You've got the indie guys who want to facerape orphans with a knife for whatever reason, which is a disturbing behavior pattern for residents to contend with, then you've got the clanned guy who steps a few paces down Hathor's to twink scan. Luckily, twinking scan is easier than ever since they threw rats and look as a hemote in the mix, so all you have to do now, in Allanak, to twink scan, is go to the tavern often enough...
But that's a tangent... the point is most people do not even know enough about the rinth to play in it, ever, nor will many try... it's a challenging task and opening up this avenue of RP would be a good way for an aspiring and promising player to dip their toe in the water, instead of being like some strange, secretive cult you have to get initiated into, which is basically what it is now for anyone who's not a complete and utter masochist... which is a shame because rinthi RP is amazing and fun, something people should come to enjoy for its sheer crapsack nature, but never will because the "git gud skrub" stump NPC on the corner is ever so fond of mashing heads for seemingly no reasons. My first PC was killed by rinthi NPCs and I had no freaking clue why, within three hours played. I wanted to learn, but it took years to find just the right PCs to explain, awkwardly, what gets you killed in the rinth, and, those PCs never left the rinth, not when you could see them, at least.
It's an escalation of people twinking and ruining the environment that has led to it being just as innaccessable as it is. It is not a place to put notches on your belt, or a place for twinkishness. Player culture evolved a certain way due to the barriers involved, and I, for one, think it might be time to give them a small, accessible peek at how it works.
This tangent about the Mantis is so crazy.
All you have to do is change your damn clothes, people.
Forget all this other theorizing about what the 'rinth is or isn't.
As a practical matter: all you have to do is CHANGE YOUR CLOTHES.
Here is my opinion:
The whole east-side v west-side and bothsides v southside.
It all comes down to a big fat IF becaus would you randomly stab some guy for no reason at all. No there is always a reason, whether the reason is simply 'because I felt like it' or 'he looked at me funny' all the way through to 'he was fucking my girlfriend' you always need a reason even in this chaotic world.
A rinthi will only have an issue with the southsider -IF- they have a reason.
Next is the whole mantis thing, sure I would personally go to the mantis if it was open to Nak, I would likely be among some of the first to get in a mantis brawl with several bynners and such, because thats how I like my Arm, gritty and violent. I would smoke that spice and drink that booze. But you know what? I wouldnt need to be doing that there since I could go somewhere else for spice, or I could go somewhere else for booze. Luirs and Gaj respectively, both places that as far as I know get more RP. Its not aatter of is it open to me, its a matter of will it consistently offer me RP, If you opened the mantis right now I give it a month of everyone gathered in the mantis or so. Until everyone is back at the Gaj and back in Luirs for their spice.
And that isnt even touching on whether people have a valid reason to be there, Again reasons can be as simple as 'I felt like it' but that doesnt make it valid. The rinth isnt just 'A bad neighbourhood' its the difference between an american city and a Brazillian slum in my mind. One is relatively clean (in this case already filthy) and the other is a cesspool of everything shitty and bad (which is compounded upon by the fact this is Arm not real life so double or even triple the shittyness)
Maybe you could switch the Gaj with one of the barracks on Merchant's Road, then you could have one barracks on each end and the Gaj would still be mostly safe, being across from the barracks and the guards lounging in the Gaj's dormitory would make even more sense.