Armageddon General Discussion Board

This thread is a break off from the Raiders thread, where the subject originally came up.

Zalanthas isn't a friendly place. It's a place that by RL standards is horrific. It has a plethora of racism (fantasy races only, not skin color based), discrimination based on origin, discrimination based on abilities (Re: Magickers), and a host of other nasty default expectations.

Despite this, I rarely see this RPed out. People complain about a static world, while taking actions that make Zalanthas a culture of hugging cuddles and togetherness.

People kank gemmer and gickers without regard, people kank elves and breed without regard, people hire and utilize gemmers/'gickers/elf-blooded without concerns. People work with others based on what they can do, without concern to origin (Tuluki, tribal, Stormer, 'Rinther, etc), which should matter.

This is something that's been true for a very long while. Most people usually come up with the defense of "my character is special and you don't understand". And, yes, PCs can have unique reasons to act a certain way.

I submit, however, that the percentage of PCs who are ignoring something is far higher then those who are acting in accord with their cultural expectations. I would say it's gotten to the level of being a problem.

I agree.  It's not being played out and I think this is what I'm thinking why the setting is too static.  We need more hate.  More hate equals conflict.

Fuck Magickers*

*Figuratively, not literally. Yes, even the hot ones. And no, I don't mean Krathis.

By telling people on the GDB to stop "this" or "that" behavior, you're basically telling people how to roleplay. If you have a problem with someone's roleplay, report it to the staff with the request tool. I could go on and on ad infinitim about my opinion of people who do this, that, and the other thing. But it'll just result in hurt feelings and push people away rather than draw them in.

A lot of times, characters who are behaving friendly toward mages:
1) are one too, you just don't know it (yet)
2) their mother was one, and they were brought up with it.
3) are in a tribe that embraces it.
4) have had a long-term relationship with the mage in question that you might not know anything about, and it probably isn't any of your business, and if you make it your business, you could end up with a shrivelled dick when you wake up one morning, as a demonstration of how MUCH it shouldn't have been any of your business.

Not always - but often enough.

Quote from: Lizzie on June 21, 2016, 07:46:40 PM
By telling people on the GDB to stop "this" or "that" behavior, you're basically telling people how to roleplay. If you have a problem with someone's roleplay, report it to the staff with the request tool. I could go on and on ad infinitim about my opinion of people who do this, that, and the other thing. But it'll just result in hurt feelings and push people away rather than draw them in.

Yes, if it was the case of one or two people behaving a certain way.

But what happens when it's so pervasive that culturally speaking YOU are the odd one if YOU are acting out the standard culture?

At that point, it's a larger issue.

I remember during the end of the world plots, magickers became central to a lot of things, magick widely used, etc etc. This lead to a GDB thread that was created about it, addressing this issue in culture. The thread produced a resolution by having people agree that this wasn't what they wanted. It lead to the great karma off, where people voluntarily gave up their karma and agreed not to play magickers, publicly announcing their intent to help restore the balance.

This isn't a thread looking at one or two PCs. It's a thread looking at a larger cultural issue that has been happening for over a RL year and has not seen improvement.

Funny enough, I don't see this problem with elves, they seem adequately discriminated against, at least outside of the few clans that hire them, this makes sense to me. Gicks are another story altogether, I played a gick that were completely accepted pretty much wherever they went, and they traveled the Known north to south. The worst reaction I got was a tribal hissing at me or some funny looks. And I've played a lot more that didn't travel as much, but were equally accepted pretty much anywhere but into clans.

Quote from: Taven on June 21, 2016, 07:51:21 PM

Quote from: Lizzie on June 21, 2016, 07:46:40 PM
By telling people on the GDB to stop "this" or "that" behavior, you're basically telling people how to roleplay. If you have a problem with someone's roleplay, report it to the staff with the request tool. I could go on and on ad infinitim about my opinion of people who do this, that, and the other thing. But it'll just result in hurt feelings and push people away rather than draw them in.

Yes, if it was the case of one or two people behaving a certain way.

But what happens when it's so pervasive that culturally speaking YOU are the odd one if YOU are acting out the standard culture?

At that point, it's a larger issue.

I remember during the end of the world plots, magickers became central to a lot of things, magick widely used, etc etc. This lead to a GDB thread that was created about it, addressing this issue in culture. The thread produced a resolution by having people agree that this wasn't what they wanted. It lead to the great karma off, where people voluntarily gave up their karma and agreed not to play magickers, publicly announcing their intent to help restore the balance.

This isn't a thread looking at one or two PCs. It's a thread looking at a larger cultural issue that has been happening for over a RL year and has not seen improvement.

I play mages fairly often. Most of them are "known" publically at one point or another, ICly, usually for an extended period of time. I've experienced mostly "cautious tolerance" from most, the kind of friendliness that you find from new players who don't really understand the significance yet, sometimes my characters just get flat-out ignored. Sometimes there's a little of inbetween. But I can tell you right now, nothing kills a scene more than active aggressive hatred when you're trying to interact with characters in a public place. It's the kind of "drama" that even in an IC fantasy game, my *character* would roll her eyes and think "too much drama" and go away and end the scene right there and then.

You want to be left without anyone to hate, then go ahead and encourage everyone to express hatred for mages IC. It'll just swing the pendulum the other way, and make things even MORE static than you feel it already is.

As for me, I'll continue playing my mages, and behave however my mages behave when someone is nice to them. And that all really depends on the personality of the character I'm playing at the time. It's not a universal thing, nor should it be. THAT would be boring.

Quote from: Lizzie on June 21, 2016, 08:00:15 PMYou want to be left without anyone to hate, then go ahead and encourage everyone to express hatred for mages IC. It'll just swing the pendulum the other way, and make things even MORE static than you feel it already is.

As for me, I'll continue playing my mages, and behave however my mages behave when someone is nice to them. And that all really depends on the personality of the character I'm playing at the time. It's not a universal thing, nor should it be. THAT would be boring.

Magickers are not a category of people who are meant to be liked, accepted, and trusted. There are some groups who do include them (Oash, primarily) or groups who may work with them. Tribal magickers within their own tribes are a different thing entirely.

Magicker hate isn't always in your face. Because magickers are some scary mofos. But part of being a magicker is expecting that people will dislike you... The same way that if you play a breed, you expect people to dislike you.

If as a whole culture, we're seeing magickers become everyone's friend because of what they can do, or becoming kank partners or lovers without regards to what they can do, it's a problem.

But this thread is not about magickers in specific. They are merely one category of people which Zalanthians discriminate against.

Quote from: Lizzie on June 21, 2016, 08:00:15 PM
I play mages fairly often. Most of them are "known" publically at one point or another, ICly, usually for an extended period of time. I've experienced mostly "cautious tolerance" from most, the kind of friendliness that you find from new players who don't really understand the significance yet, sometimes my characters just get flat-out ignored. Sometimes there's a little of inbetween. But I can tell you right now, nothing kills a scene more than active aggressive hatred when you're trying to interact with characters in a public place. It's the kind of "drama" that even in an IC fantasy game, my *character* would roll her eyes and think "too much drama" and go away and end the scene right there and then.

I too see a lot of the 'just ignore them' play out, which to me seems WAY worse than active aggression. At least with active aggression something is happening, and characters are developing.

Quote from: Taven on June 21, 2016, 08:07:05 PM

Quote from: Lizzie on June 21, 2016, 08:00:15 PMYou want to be left without anyone to hate, then go ahead and encourage everyone to express hatred for mages IC. It'll just swing the pendulum the other way, and make things even MORE static than you feel it already is.

As for me, I'll continue playing my mages, and behave however my mages behave when someone is nice to them. And that all really depends on the personality of the character I'm playing at the time. It's not a universal thing, nor should it be. THAT would be boring.

Magickers are not a category of people who are meant to be liked, accepted, and trusted. There are some groups who do include them (Oash, primarily) or groups who may work with them. Tribal magickers within their own tribes are a different thing entirely.

Magicker hate isn't always in your face. Because magickers are some scary mofos. But part of being a magicker is expecting that people will dislike you... The same way that if you play a breed, you expect people to dislike you.

If as a whole culture, we're seeing magickers become everyone's friend because of what they can do, or becoming kank partners or lovers without regards to what they can do, it's a problem.

But this thread is not about magickers in specific. They are merely one category of people which Zalanthians discriminate against.

Then how about presenting the game world with a mage whose presence demands fear/hatred/loathing? I mean if it bothers you that much. Most of the mages I encounter are nice, cheerful, peppy, useful, even-tempered, etc. etc. etc. The only way you'd even know they were mages at all, is the fact that they have a gem around their throats.

If you want to see more characters hating on mages, then play a hateful mage. If you want to see more people hating on elves, play a hateful elf.

You know - the whole "be the change" thing.

Edited to add: Correct them - if you think your RP is better than theirs - IG. If they are nice to your fearful hateful scary powerful mage, then react in a scary way to reinforce the fact that they SHOULD be afraid.

If your elf is being hit on by a human who wants to have a relationship and maybe some bebbies, then get him naked, rob him, and beat him til he's near death and then leave him in his apartment with the door open so that everyone else can rob him too.

As someone that plays a lot of the downtrodden character options, I have to disagree with Taven on the state of play right now.  I think there's a pretty healthy amount of racism/classism/anti-magickism going on, but perhaps our circles don't overlap.*
 
The two things I'd contribute to the topic though:

o Education. While the gick/elf/breed/rinther should ICly respond to document-bending friendlies however their personality would demand, there is still a kind of OOC onus on them to educate, so to speak, the offender.  What I mean by this is that you can include in your actions at, say, the Gaj, vNPCs behaving according to the documentation -- there's a nice one in the Gaj when a gemmed walks in and patrons grumble and move off to another table.   I usually used this one whenever I came into the Gaj or if I felt someone was being a bit too friendly.  I've also OOC'd newbies the relevant help file.  If you are playing a downtrodden, part of the fun is to be downtrodden.

o Be subtle but not too subtle.  Racism/Classism/Anti-Magickism doesn't have to be overt violence, nor is simply ignoring the downtrodden person really much fun.  I'd rather see a thread in classic Taven-style of ways to express documented racism/classism/anti-magickism that encourage interaction and fun RP scenes.  (LauraMars's original submissions is fantastic in that regard: you had two very different expressions of anti-gemmed sentiment in that scene in Red's.)

* That said, every single one of my cockroach-eating blood-soaked rinthers, gemmed, breeds, and elves has been hit on via the Way in disgustingly obvious ways.


ETA: Here's a link to the Original Submissions:

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,51030.0.html

When I read it, I actually cringed when the pock-marked guy placed hands on the gemmed.  I was like: ehhhh, he's totally getting cursed for that!

Even a gick who is an otherwise nice person shouldn't be accepted by most. Magickers are hated and feared by the populace, this is a fact of life on Zalanthas. The general populace does not know what a gick is and isn't capable of, and assumes the worst. Magickers are blamed for disease, bad luck, and any other thing that goes wrong.

Quote from: Lizzie on June 21, 2016, 08:16:34 PMThen how about presenting the game world with a mage whose presence demands fear/hatred/loathing?I mean if it bothers you that much. Most of the mages I encounter are nice, cheerful, peppy, useful, even-tempered, etc. etc. etc. The only way you'd even know they were mages at all, is the fact that they have a gem around their throats.

[...]

If you want to see more characters hating on mages, then play a hateful mage. If you want to see more people hating on elves, play a hateful elf.

That's just it. EVERY mage, every gemmer, is someone whose presence demands fear/hatered/loathing. There can be individual character quirks, yes, that make expectations. I'm not arguing that there can't be expectations.

What I am arguing is that per documentation the default view of all of these groups is unfavorable. So, no, it doesn't matter if all gemmers are cheerful and peppy and smiling. They are still magickers. You aren't hating them because they are mean and hateful PCs, you are hating them because they are magickers (or elves, or tribals, or rinthi, or Tuluki, or whatever).

QuoteIf your elf is being hit on by a human who wants to have a relationship and maybe some bebbies, then get him naked, rob him, and beat him til he's near death and then leave him in his apartment with the door open so that everyone else can rob him too.

This is a great suggestion. By all means, people can do this.

However, what happens when the PC world is too far gone for this to happen? What happens when nobody cares that the human tried to kank an elf, because the human is useful?

What happens when there is no repercussions from other PCs for violating documentation?

I think that is the point where we are at. I think it's something that we, as a playerbase, need to reflect on and consider.

Then you need to report player complaints to staff, and ask that they make an official clarification/announcement/request/GDB post/Documentation change/New Rule, or at least enforce the existing rules.

If everyone and their brother is kanking elves and mages, that means all those mages and elves are kanking non-mages and non-elves. THOSE people should possibly be docked karma, because those people should know better.

The example needs to be set from the top down. Newbies can only emulate what they see. If they see elves having human girlfriends, and mages sitting on non-mages laps or spelling up their non-mage pals without any kind of tension roleplayed during the scene, then you can't really expect them to take the "rules" seriously.

Quote from: nauta on June 21, 2016, 08:19:23 PMI think there's a pretty healthy amount of racism/classism/anti-magickism going on, but perhaps our circles don't overlap.*

* That said, every single one of my cockroach-eating blood-soaked rinthers, gemmed, breeds, and elves has been hit on via the Way in disgustingly obvious ways.

Yep, this is part of the problem. If every single character of a lesser status is getting hit on by someone of a more privileged status, that's a bad sign.

Quoteo Education. [...] If you are playing a downtrodden, part of the fun is to be downtrodden.

This is a good suggestion, and I agree with the sentiment.

The one word of caution I would give is that if you are animating vNPCs in your actions, be careful. Sometimes its easy to assume certain things are happening which may not be the case. I know I have personally misjudged the status of vNPC affairs before, though not in an emoting context. When in doubt, you can also wish up to staff.

Generally, as long as you're moderate and considerate of the virtual world, you'll be good! (This is a general comment for readers, rather then specifically directed at you, Nauta)

Quoteo Be subtle but not too subtle.  Racism/Classism/Anti-Magickism doesn't have to be overt violence, nor is simply ignoring the downtrodden person really much fun.  I'd rather see a thread in classic Taven-style of ways to express documented racism/classism/anti-magickism that encourage interaction and fun RP scenes.  (LauraMars's original submissions is fantastic in that regard: you had two very different expressions of anti-gemmed sentiment in that scene in Red's.)

I agree that everything doesn't have to be RAWR, IN YOUR FACE. There are lots of different levels of dislike and expressing it. Good suggestion!

I mixed feelings on this:

I feel publicly people should act a certain way, never do X, Y, Z, you always say/act A, B C. Because society would look down on you otherwise. However, what people do behind closed doors, when they feel no one is looking...well, that is another story. I have no problems with people fucking/hiring elves, breeds, magickers and everything in between....for whatever reason even...so long as they are actively trying to keep it a secret to the public in general and join in stoning those that have failed to keep such deviancy a secret.

I am always dismayed at openly racist people being treated like shit in public.

That said, please use the report tool if you have a problem with someone's role-playing. The most annoying people are still the ones that go on GDBesque rants ICly, usually because they are assuming something which is often wrong. And you people know who you are, so stop ranting in the Gaj or in people's heads

Quote from: Lizzie on June 21, 2016, 08:33:01 PM
Then you need to report player complaints to staff, and ask that they make an official clarification/announcement/request/GDB post/Documentation change/New Rule, or at least enforce the existing rules.

If everyone and their brother is kanking elves and mages, that means all those mages and elves are kanking non-mages and non-elves. THOSE people should possibly be docked karma, because those people should know better.

The example needs to be set from the top down. Newbies can only emulate what they see. If they see elves having human girlfriends, and mages sitting on non-mages laps or spelling up their non-mage pals without any kind of tension roleplayed during the scene, then you can't really expect them to take the "rules" seriously.

I actually agree that this is a pretty complex problem, and maybe as a community, we need to look at the next step.

If the culture of PCs has shifted outside of documentation as a whole, does staff need to play a more aggressive role in making the world respond appropriately?

Personally, I wouldn't be against that. I think it would provide the pressure needed to make behavior matter again. I think if it is reinforced as an expectation, we'll see more people playing in accordance with that.

Quote from: Taven on June 21, 2016, 08:42:28 PM
The one word of caution I would give is that if you are animating vNPCs in your actions, be careful. Sometimes its easy to assume certain things are happening which may not be the case. I know I have personally misjudged the status of vNPC affairs before, though not in an emoting context. When in doubt, you can also wish up to staff.

Generally, as long as you're moderate and considerate of the virtual world, you'll be good! (This is a general comment for readers, rather then specifically directed at you, Nauta)

Just by way of examples, here are some good interactions with the virtual (and non-player) world on the side of the gemmed from that Original Submissions:

Quote
Quietly weaving through the sparse morning crowds, which move away from her, you sit at a boxy wooden bar, claiming a stool at the end.
...
Swinging her legs as they dangle above the tavern floor, the freckled, curly-haired woman piles up some coins on the bartop, waiting patiently for the tall, amber-eyed woman's attention.
...
Finally, the tall, amber-eyed woman turns to the freckled, curly-haired woman at the sound of additional, clinking obsidian coins.

You give the tall, amber-eyed woman 13 obsidian coins for a miniature barrel.

Shoving the additional bribe over, you give the tall, amber-eyed woman 3 coins.

Quote from: Dresan on June 21, 2016, 08:42:40 PM
I mixed feelings on this:

I feel publicly people should act a certain way, never do X, Y, Z, you always say/act A, B C. Because society would look down on you otherwise. However, what people do behind closed doors, when they feel no one is looking...well, that is another story. I have no problems with people fucking/hiring elves, breeds, magickers and everything in between....for whatever reason even...so long as they are actively trying to keep it a secret to the public in general and join in stoning those that have failed to keep such deviancy a secret.

There are levels of hate and room for variations. I agree that if you are friendly or utilizing undesirables, you should absolutely work to keep it secret, because it shows that you recognize that what you're doing is outside of the normal realm of expectations. You absolutely should fear people finding out, because of the negative reprecussions.

All that said, I don't think everyone should have a secret magicker buddy, either.

QuoteThat said, please use the report tool if you have a problem with someone's role-playing. The most annoying people are still the ones that go on GDBesque rants ICly, usually because they are assuming something which is often wrong. And you people know who you are, so stop ranting in the Gaj or in people's heads

This is a general comment, since I'm not sure what specific incidents you're referring to. But people bringing something IC does allow an IC response, too. It gives the opportunity for you to correct their impressions, defends your actions, and so on. It does cause more conflict. So, IC complaining is something I'm all in favor of. It seems like a reasonable IC response.

Fuck being the exception, now when I'm following the docs it feels like I'm the exception.

Disregard of social divides.
City culture in general (dresscode, beliefs, etc)
Elves with a human's baby.
Humans with elfie's baby.
Half-elves with half-elfie's baby (fucking gross)
Tuluki's with mages.
Mages with non-mages.
Cityfolk with desertfolk.
Dickgirls....


Wanna make arm great again? Quit playing the fucking exception.  ;)

Quote from: Majikal on June 21, 2016, 09:16:25 PM
Fuck being the exception, now when I'm following the docs it feels like I'm the exception.

Disregard of social divides.
City culture in general (dresscode, beliefs, etc)
Elves with a human's baby.
Humans with elfie's baby.
Half-elves with half-elfie's baby (fucking gross)
Tuluki's with mages.
Mages with non-mages.
Cityfolk with desertfolk.
Dickgirls....


Wanna make arm great again? Quit playing the fucking exception.  ;)

Bolded and underlines to emphasize - that's the exact point I'm trying to make.

Most of the time I don't care about hate.
It's not like I don't not care about it...wait what.

But it's like IRL.
People hating on social groups or loving on them.
I'm just "meh".
It isn't like I was raised in a house hold that makes me 'meh', a certain relative of mine is extremely racist.

Could be the same thing in Arm most times. Just because everyone hates a certain group doesn't mean you will.




That being said fuck elves those stealing ass holes.

I think it's okay to play an exception, if you have a good reason for it, and take into account culture and background and don't just treat it like "my human thinks elves should be treated equally because he is nice that way." Every character that you think up should be a product of the world documented in the documentation. You should always take into consideration the environment and cultural norms. So while there may be "exceptions" to societal expectations ICly, OOCly there should be no exceptions as far as respecting the docs. And because of the docs, your "exception" characters should expect to be treated like the weirdo freaks they are. So if PCs at the bar aren't making a fuss about it, bring some VNPCs in, kind of like what nauta was saying. RP yourself getting kicked out of the bar for pulling an elven whore onto your lap.

The sad fact is that you can't control what other people play, and there tend to be trends that pop up when a lot of people have the similar "unique" ideas simultaneously. Whether that's based on similar environmental factors subconsciously influencing people, or if there's something like a Jungian collective unconscious doesn't really matter in this case. The point is that things get swingy. And sometimes you will have a lot of "exceptions" at once, which can hurt immersion and make it feel like Zalanthas has become soft. So while I don't think we should be shaming people for playing roles that have well-thought-out reasons for acting in a way that is counter to the norm, we should definitely be encouraging people to play according to the docs as the default, especially when they notice that something like this is a problem. And we should be encouraging those who are playing "exceptions" to keep in mind that the VNPC world is still treating them like shit even if the PC world isn't, and behave accordingly.

One thing that is not okay is when somebody just decides to casually disregard the docs so that they can kank that sexy half-breed. Kanking the sexy half-breed is all right if appropriate, doc-respecting RP goes into it, but you shouldn't just wad up the docs and toss 'em in the fire because the word 'curvy' is in their sdesc. Your PC shouldn't be suddenly forgetting everything they've learned and believed about magick their whole life because some magicker was "nice." Respect the docs with everything you do, whether you're playing by the book or bending expectations.

Not everybody is going to be the same or internalize the culture in the same way, so it's fine to be flexible IMO. Just don't discard the docs, don't forget that your behavior is considered unconventional even if PCs aren't enforcing it, and probably don't make every single one of your characters an exception--the norm should be, you know, the norm. Do all these things and I think we can strike a balance between too lax and too stifling.

I don't follow the docs much, but sort of pick some general hatred for each character (assuming they live long enough to talk to anyone).

For instance, the docs say "everyone hates half breeds", but a given character of mine might LIKE half breeds but despise dwarves. Or maybe he doesn't mind gicks so much but hates the dun cloaks so much he spits on the ground every time he sees one. Or he despises spice users and dealers. Or left handed redheads. Whatever. Just mix it up a little bit.

I see the docs as guidelines but I'll be damned if I want my every RP response dictated or scrutinized.

Hate is far too bland a spice to pepper 90% of Zalanthas with.

I'd fear magickers quicker than hate them. I fear snakes, but they're beautiful and interesting from a distance. I just don't want to get close to one.

I'd pity breeds before hating them. Because they're broken by definition and will never have acceptance (real acceptance) or emotional stability in most cases.

I distrust people from the other city-state before hating them, because they might be spies. Though I might hate aspects of their culture.

There are a lot of different negative ways to react. I think hate is overplayed, and most of the time, people put as much thought and depth into how 'hate' manifests as they do into how to play a 'villain', and it often comes off one dimensional and forced.

Quote from: Miradus on June 21, 2016, 10:29:31 PM
I don't follow the docs much, but sort of pick some general hatred for each character (assuming they live long enough to talk to anyone).

For instance, the docs say "everyone hates half breeds", but a given character of mine might LIKE half breeds but despise dwarves. Or maybe he doesn't mind gicks so much but hates the dun cloaks so much he spits on the ground every time he sees one. Or he despises spice users and dealers. Or left handed redheads. Whatever. Just mix it up a little bit.

I see the docs as guidelines but I'll be damned if I want my every RP response dictated or scrutinized.

Certain docs aren't merely guidelines, though. Certain docs are culture data indoctrinated into the entirety of the population.. Your character would - at the very least - MIND magickers. They are scary scary people who wield a power that only a tiny minority of the population understand - which is to say, the people who wield it. And even some of them don't understand it.

We fear that which we don't know. This is a universal fact.

Your character SHOULD have some fear, awe, or at the very least, suspicion, with regards magickers. How your character responds to that fear/suspicion is entirely up to you - THAT is where you have your options. But disregarding the docs entirely is what creates OOC conflict where there should be IC conflict. Sure, your character might have reason to hate dwarves. They're freaky creatures. But he would ALSO have a fear/loathing/suspicion of magickers. A dwarven magicker? Bonus points - you get to actively express that loathing and it'd make sense in the game world because everyone ELSE will assume you're expressing what is NORMAL - which is - the hatred of magickers.

Even when I was playing in a tribe that embraced and worshipped one of the elements, awhile back - the mage who wielded that element's power was to be feared. We worshipped the element, feared the mage. You NEVER wanted to get on that PC's bad side and some preferred to just avoid that PC unless situations required interaction. And then - it was with caution, fear, and boucoup respect.

Your character, unless he is an elf, SHOULD treat elves as if he thought they were all thieves. How you choose to portray that treatment is - again - entirely up to you. But the documentation is clear: elves ARE all thieves. It's in their DNA, and any elf who is behaving like he's not a thief, is either fighting his own genetic code, or scamming you (which would make actual sense). This is a universal truth, a universal fact within the game world.

These documents aren't written to be disregarded. The writers of those docs didn't spend weeks upon weeks of their own free time just to have someone say "Nah, I don't like those, I'll make up my own."

HOW you present your interpretation of those docs is up to you. But you are expected to present some interpretation of them, and not dismiss them because they don't suit you.

[strikeout edit - even elves know they're all thieves - that's why they have trust trials.]

I haven't seen that in game. The only magickers I have ever ran into (that I know of) have been gemmers who come in and sit in the Gaj like it's just an ordinary thing. People laugh and joke with them and trade with them without there ever being any real issue.

In the wild, I have not ran into any rogue gicks to actually interact with so it's never come up. Almost the same with elves.

Quote from: Miradus on June 22, 2016, 09:08:50 AM
I haven't seen that in game. The only magickers I have ever ran into (that I know of) have been gemmers who come in and sit in the Gaj like it's just an ordinary thing. People laugh and joke with them and trade with them without there ever being any real issue.

In the wild, I have not ran into any rogue gicks to actually interact with so it's never come up. Almost the same with elves.

It IS an ordinary thing for the gemmed to frequent the Gaj. Ordinary, being "if a gemmer is going to hang out anywhere in public, it'll be with the rest of the low-life denizens of the city. Half-elves, elves, the unwashed tribals, unaffiliated commoners, half-giants, merchant house clanned northerners, people from Red Storm, etc. etc." Not ordinary as in "you should expect to see at least a dozen gemmers all playing kruth together at any given moment."

But it being something you might expect to see, doesn't mean it's something you should expect to be content with. Tolerant, perhaps. But somewhere in the back of your character's head, will be some tale, fable, myth, legend, warning from mom when you were a toddler - about how magicks are scary things and the monster in the closet that makes bumping sounds when she turns the lamp out for bedtime - is a magicker.

Here are some helpful (I think) previous discussions on how Zalanthan racism works out:

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php?topic=41823.0
http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,29662.0
http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php?topic=7332.0

The challenge of continually roleplaying social antagonism is that the playerbase's desire for positive interaction and cooperation will almost inevitably win out in the long term. It's easy to be antagonistic in that first meeting with the elf/breed/magicker/foreigner/social pariah, but if you keep interacting with them, and they're a fun or useful character to have around, antagonism naturally decreases.

I don't think the playerbase has the ability to properly balance the in-character requirements of hating on folks long-term with the out-of-character convenience of having friends and fun in game. The human trend is to play to the exception and "eventually" make friends with those your character otherwise would not.

What BS said, plus I'll add:

I also think the changing of minds is fun to roleplay as well. "I hate breeds" becomes "I hate breeds but not this one because he saved my ass while I lay dying on the road" which may eventually become "I had a breed friend once who was murdered because he was a breed. Maybe they aren't all bad."

If it's part of a character arc, then it's not really all that bad, is it? Of course if you come in on the tail end of the arc and have no clue how it got to happen then it's pretty lousy to judge that this person is just roleplaying poorly.

I think the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

What BS mentions is true, to an extent, depending on your own temperament as a PC. I personally play people who are antagonistic no matter what, even if it means they don't get to interact with people, because I uphold the documentation of the game, in regards to racism, anti-magick sentiment, and so on.

Same thing with the whole gay hate in America that has really died down.
"I hate gays"
"I hate gays...except Jerry down the street, he's real cool"
"Gays are alright I guess"
Then you end up going to Jerry's wedding and wish him and his husband a happy life. That sorta thing.



Only if you go to an elf wedding I will burn your house down.

Quote from: Jihelu on June 22, 2016, 04:24:19 PM
Same thing with the whole gay hate in America that has really died down.
"I hate gays"
"I hate gays...except Jerry down the street, he's real cool"
"Gays are alright I guess"
Then you end up going to Jerry's wedding and wish him and his husband a happy life. That sorta thing.



Only if you go to an elf wedding I will burn your house down.

It's... pretty clear you're not LGBTQ+. Queer hate is still alive and well, everything from microagressions to employment discrimination to violence. Including an extremely recent mass shooting.

So I'm not really sure about your comparison, here.

Quote from: valeria on June 22, 2016, 04:30:50 PM

Quote from: Jihelu on June 22, 2016, 04:24:19 PM
Same thing with the whole gay hate in America that has really died down.
"I hate gays"
"I hate gays...except Jerry down the street, he's real cool"
"Gays are alright I guess"
Then you end up going to Jerry's wedding and wish him and his husband a happy life. That sorta thing.



Only if you go to an elf wedding I will burn your house down.

It's... pretty clear you're not LGBTQ+. Queer hate is still alive and well, everything from microagressions to employment discrimination to violence. Including an extremely recent mass shooting.

So I'm not really sure about your comparison, here.

It's a pretty simple comparison.
People hate elves.
People hate gays.
People over time have hated gays less.
People over time can hate elves less.

Quote from: Jihelu on June 22, 2016, 04:39:34 PM
People over time can hate elves less.

No they can't. OMG just thinking about it makes me want to throw up.

Quote from: Malken on June 22, 2016, 04:41:25 PM

Quote from: Jihelu on June 22, 2016, 04:39:34 PM
People over time can hate elves less.

No they can't. OMG just thinking about it makes me want to throw up.

I lol'd.



I'd bet money theres a study on this:
In times of hardships people either get extremely racist out of stress or lose their racist tendencies to help survive. I'd say its why in game you tend to see nobles less lovey lovey of other races and people on the poverty line/inde's tend to be friends with them, or not because still racist. Or nobles just follow documentation better and understand human master race.


ALso @Valeria
I'm not saying people hating gays/elves/blacks/that one kid down the street because he fucking took my bike that one time like a useless piece of shit has stopped.
I'm saying that is can transition out. Obviously not everyone is buddies with Jerry/likes Jerry/wants anything to do with Jerry but it phases out more so.
It's how you go from having people being sprayed with hoses to being able to them becoming president. People still hate black people. But I'd say it's a lot less than what elves experience now.
Or atleast should experience. Seriously people need to hit elves more.

I think a lot of the problem is players think racism is up for debate in Armageddon.

It's not.

Be fucking racist.

Quote from: Majikal on June 22, 2016, 04:46:29 PM
I think a lot of the problem is players think racism is up for debate in Armageddon.

It's not.

Be fucking racist.

I feel like I'm just trying to justify why people would /not/ be racist.


I still like being racist ig.
be racist.

If people are feeling at ease around elves to the point of wanting to cut them some slack, then Elves are not holding up their end of the documentation of being living vermin who will inevitably screw you over somehow.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on June 22, 2016, 05:14:56 PM
If people are feeling at ease around elves to the point of wanting to cut them some slack, then Elves are not holding up their end of the documentation of being living vermin who will inevitably screw you over somehow.

Or they are, and you're the mark, mate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVwYKtgFYCc

There's also a lot of variance in your interaction.

"There's an elf. I'm going to shiv him."

versus

"Hey, new elf friend, look at this big diamond I found out grebbing. How much do you think it's worth? I keep it right here in my canvas beltpouch."

What do some of you get out of playing roleplay police? Seriously? Do you think staff is going to lurk in the forum and say, "Wow, that person really took that guy to task no his usage of the radio call signal 'okay' being not appropriate for the campaign setting. We should give them extra karma."? You're not creating a better game. You're just creating a flat, one dimensional environment where everyone's interactions have to be the same.

I still laugh over the long-lived and well-played characters I've killed for violating social norms.

Also, playing and enforcing docs does get you karma.

I always make friends with bigs and muls because they can hurt me

Killing them for violating social norms that your character holds is decent roleplay.

OOC carping on the forum is not.

As for getting karma for enforcing docs, well, no wonder people are bitching that this game feel static if you're setting down guidelines for how all characters must behave. I haven't seen that in my time here. Nobody in authority has sent me any emails telling me I can or can't do something. The only background I've ever had not approved was my first one where my dwarf had a beard.

So I'm left with the gut feeling that staff cares less about this than the roleplay police do.

In my experience, staff just wants you to have justification for your character's feelings and motives, and to take the docs into consideration and respect them even (especially) when you're playing outside social norms.

If social norms were 100% binding at all times, no one would ever pursue sorcery.

Quote from: Beethoven on June 22, 2016, 05:42:49 PM
In my experience, staff just wants you to have justification for your character's feelings and motives, and to take the docs into consideration and respect them even (especially) when you're playing outside social norms.

If social norms were 100% binding at all times, no one would ever pursue sorcery.

Or breed with elves

Meh.

Elves steal everything, have weird ears and....don't have any weird powers.

With magickers (Gemmers at least) my characters are always a little more scared than disgusted, who knows what they can do? Certainly not most of my characters.

In a mob, with some sweet torch and pitchfork action, sure. But one on one, I think avoidance and cautious and grudging interaction if forced into it are perfectly IC between most people and gemmers (Not saying your bone sword swinging badass can't spit on them in the Gaj of course)

Not elves though. Pointy eared long necked bastards

Quote from: Cendell on June 22, 2016, 05:45:47 PM
Meh.

Elves steal everything, have weird ears and....don't have any weird powers.

With magickers (Gemmers at least) my characters are always a little more scared than disgusted, who knows what they can do? Certainly not most of my characters.

In a mob, with some sweet torch and pitchfork action, sure. But one on one, I think avoidance and cautious and grudging interaction if forced into it are perfectly IC between most people and gemmers (Not saying your bone sword swinging badass can't spit on them in the Gaj of course)

Not elves though. Pointy eared long necked bastards

This. That and people don't like having their shit taken, which elves do. Elves give you a reason to hate them. Magickers are full of scary mystery curses which, sure, might make SOME people hate them, but unless you vastly outnumber them as part of a faceless mob, as is pointed out, is more reason to fear than hate them.

I have had two types of experiences with gicks in game.

1. Gemmers who are so bored they are desperately trying to involve you in a dozen plots or to get you to go outside the walls and fetch things for you.

2. Rogue gicks in the wilderness who pelted me with gelatinous meat.

Quote from: Beethoven on June 22, 2016, 05:42:49 PM

Quote from: Miradus on June 22, 2016, 05:40:15 PM
Killing them for violating social norms that your character holds is decent roleplay.

OOC carping on the forum is not.

As for getting karma for enforcing docs, well, no wonder people are bitching that this game feel static if you're setting down guidelines for how all characters must behave. I haven't seen that in my time here. Nobody in authority has sent me any emails telling me I can or can't do something. The only background I've ever had not approved was my first one where my dwarf had a beard.

So I'm left with the gut feeling that staff cares less about this than the roleplay police do.

In my experience, staff just wants you to have justification for your character's feelings and motives, and to take the docs into consideration and respect them even (especially) when you're playing outside social norms.

If social norms were 100% binding at all times, no one would ever pursue sorcery.

I agree with Beethoven. If you are going to be an exception to the docs, then you should be showing it as a progression, showing why, showing the internal struggle and debate as you act different from the cultural standard.

Miradus, as has been stated before, this isn't about a single player RPing a certain way. This is about Zalanthas as a whole and how the playerbase as a whole is playing things out. There are rules on how the vast majority of the Zalathian population behaves, this is the documentation. That's just part of the game. There ARE room for exceptions, for individuality, and for uniqueness. However, when the overarching cultural expectations of the game are not being reflected in the playerbase as a whole, then there is a problem.

Staff does care how people behave. As mentioned, this is reflected in karma and account notes. If you show a good understanding of the game world, in theory, you are also more likely to be given a chance at leadership roles. But those are all the OOC impacts. I don't really care about that, so much as the IC status of cultural consistency.

Many indeed do it as a progression. I've had reason to do this on occasion. But everyone else, including staff, only gets exposed to snapshots.

In my experience, no one asks, ic or ooc, why they are an exception. They just make a note, hate them for it, whatever.

But as a general rule, I agree. I am anti-care bear. The role play of fear, hate, and mistrust has been subject to a ton of critique over the years though. I've kind of resigned to some people doing it, and others just not having it in them to separate hurting a character's feelings from the player's.


Edit:  Some autocorrect fail from phone.

That's kind of my thing.

If I'm going to be an ass to someone, it's generally because with a previous character I've roleplayed with them, enjoyed it, and want to have some more fun from a different angle. I don't really want to just be an antagonist randomly.

I can't believe people are saying staff should make what is already documented on the website a rule, or post about it on the GDB when it is already written lut, clear cut, on the website.

Murder, Corruption, Betrayal, all woven together by hate and superstition and strict social hierachies.

Mingya.

Here I go again coming out of the woodwork to comment when I shouldn't.

I'm of the personal opinion that documentation and racial roleplay in particular need to updated to reflect the game world reality.

Elves in particular are in such a bad state that they've been backed into a nearly unplayable corner. Not even through the documentation, but through player-generated assumptions about the application of that documentation.

Yes you can interpret elves as stealing everything that isn't nailed down. But It's just as fine to interpret elven relationships as a long con with no immediate payoff that slowly settles into a relationship of trust. I think anyone with any particular insight can see that elves are potentially the most loyal friends someone could ever have, provided that elf's trust is earned.

Racism isn't really a facet that's explored in the documentation either, it's just a weird sort of head-canon that players have developed and then encoded into game policy. So I'm not saying not to be racist in character. But I really wish people wouldn't direct it at elves more than dwarves, half-elves and half-giants.

I think that the racism against elves is about right, slightly overdone perhaps. But I definitely agree I'd like to see dwarves and HG's see more racism. Unless you know for a fact that the dwarf's focus is perfectly in line with your goals, that dwarf's just about useless as an employee. And half giants have the intelligence of little more than a child which means they may well be perfectly loyal but all it takes is the first elf or human to come along and trick them, and all your investment in them's for naught. And so on and so forth. I dislike that there is so little racism against dwarves and half-giants, but I think the biggest thing making city elves "almost unplayable" is a lack of actual tribes, and the long wait and approval/preapproval process plus superimposed outside limitations on the creation of tribes in tandem with that lack. If either of those two factors changed, it would be a huge boon to elven playability.

Quote from: bardlyone on June 23, 2016, 04:20:25 AM
I think the biggest thing making city elves "almost unplayable" is a lack of actual tribes, and the long wait and approval/preapproval process plus superimposed outside limitations on the creation of tribes in tandem with that lack. If either of those two factors changed, it would be a huge boon to elven playability.

There wasn't a long wait for me.

I wouldn't mind experimenting with eliminating this line:

"Only four (4) PC members are allowed per family or tribe--and not just four alive at one time, but four PCs, total. This includes your PC."

Change it to something like:

"Only four (4) PC members are allowed alive at one time per family or tribe, including your PC.  If there are no PCs in the tribe, then the tribe is dead (i.e., fully virtual and no longer open to play).  Otherwise, people can keep applying for a role as long as there is an open slot.  There is a six month pause before you can re-apply for the same tribe."

Hence, if three of your tribemembers die, you can refresh the role call.  If all four die, well, nice run, game over.

Quote from: nauta on June 23, 2016, 08:13:48 AM

Quote from: bardlyone on June 23, 2016, 04:20:25 AM
I think the biggest thing making city elves "almost unplayable" is a lack of actual tribes, and the long wait and approval/preapproval process plus superimposed outside limitations on the creation of tribes in tandem with that lack. If either of those two factors changed, it would be a huge boon to elven playability.

There wasn't a long wait for me.

I wouldn't mind experimenting with eliminating this line:

"Only four (4) PC members are allowed per family or tribe--and not just four alive at one time, but four PCs, total. This includes your PC."

Change it to something like:

"Only four (4) PC members are allowed in the game at one time per family or tribe, including your PC.  If there are no PCs in the tribe, then the tribe is dead (i.e., fully virtual and no longer open to play).  Otherwise, people can keep applying for a role as long as there is an open slot.  There is a six month pause before you can re-apply for the same tribe."

Hence, if three of your tribemembers die, you can refresh the role call.  If all four die, well, nice run, game over.

That seems like a reasonable amendment and one that would make the process of maintaining created player tribes much more viable.

For what it's worth, I meant as much with regard to recruiting and setting up etc other players, as the wait time on the approval itself, basically, there's a lot of steps involved in getting even the first members squared away and approved, before you can even look for players to fill the roles, then come the recruitment threads. Then comes the pms. Then comes the possible waits on storage, definite waits on app approvals and writing of descs, and so forth.

I'm not sure if this would be helpful or not, but I thought I'd comb through the documentation and pull out the relevant bits of racism/anti-magickism/classism/xenophobia documented... I then kind of ran out of time.

Unless I missed the big help file (a search of 'racism' turned up nothing), one thing that surprised me was how little there is in the documentation about racism (and friends).  Perhaps a help file on racism (and friends) with examples -- from the perspective of an Allanaki human at least -- would be in order?  (Or maybe it's out there and I couldn't find it.)

A Human (from Allanak).

Summary: Motivation for Allanaki human racism is underdetermined, but it would appear to stem from the view that humans are superior, and this from the fact that Tektolnes is a human and (implicit) the fact that he rules the city.  As to anti-magickism, this is pretty crystal clear: fear of the unknown.  As to xenophobia against tribals, this isn't very clear at all.  As to classism against rinthers, this isn't clear.  Classism against commoners is owing to the view that nobles are a better breed.

In general:

Quote from: http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Humans
Humans are considered the norm against which other races are, fairly or unfairly, judged. Quite likely this is a result of the human origins of both Muk Utep and Tektolnes, but it is distinctly possible that either all other races are descended from human stock or that at one time humans comprised a vast majority of the population of Zalanthas.

Views towards magick:

Quote from: http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Magick
Magick is a mysterious and very rare power on Zalanthas, about which the general public knows very little, and generally fears and hates a great deal. While magickers are tolerated in some places, they are generally feared and distrusted by the vast majority of the population of Zalanthas. In many places, magickers are killed upon discovery, and even the rumor that one is a magicker can lead to one's death.

Quote from: http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Allanak%20Details
The Elementalists' Quarter, in the northwest of the city, is where the feared magick users are segregated

Views towards dwarves/half-giants/muls:
Surprisingly, I couldn't find anything!  Muls are slaves (or ex-slaves) and so property.  Half-giants are dumb.  Dwarves have strange foci...  Anyone find anything?

Views towards elves:
Surprisingly, all I could find was in the half-elf doc:

Quote from: http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Half-Elf%20Roleplay
Humans see a half-elf as a product of the untrustworthy filth that is an elf...

Views towards tribals:
I couldn't find anything substantive here, but there's a longstanding tradition in game of a kind of xenophobia -- see terms like 'duneblood'.

Views towards rinthers:

Quote from: http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Allanak
The Labyrinth (often referred to as the 'rinth) is home to most of Allanak's criminal population, and most citizens avoid it like the plague. Strangely enough, the 'rinth is also where many of the city's small to medium-sized business contracts are negotiated, now that much of the economy has gone underground.

Views towards nobles:

Quote from: http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Allanak%20Details
Many commoners may have little idea what a noble's life really entails, but they know that nobles are simply a better breed than they.

Views towards half-elfs:

Quote from: http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Half-Elf%20Roleplay
Accepted by neither humans nor elves, half-elves tend to be extremely self-reliant, and they pride themselves on this trait. ...

As a bastard offspring of conflicting cultures, it is extremely difficult, if not impossible, for a half-elf to be accepted anywhere. Humans see a half-elf as a product of the untrustworthy filth that is an elf, and elves see half-elves as weak and tribeless; and half-elves have no culture of their own. To make things worse, most half-elves have little or no support from their parents. They are typically formed by violence - whether it be a literal conception by rape, or the prejudice heaped upon those that raise or care for them.
...
Because half-elves can never be fully integrated into either human or elven society, a half-elf's history is littered with memories of rejections and slights, both real and perceived.
...
If their audience (or society in general) accepts the half-elf, respects their deeds, or otherwise welcomes them, this may be perceived as an insult to his independence.
...
On the other hand, if the half-elf is ridiculed, ignored, or turned away, all the worse! This just proves that they do not need others.

An elf (from Allanak).

Summary: For city elves, xenophobia seems to stem from (a) a lingering sense of superiority left-over from their nomadic ancestors and (b) a tribal culture that inculcates a distrust of those outside the tribe.

Quote from: http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/City%20Elf%20Roleplay
Elves highly distrust anyone who is not part of their immediate family, or of their tribe, who has not been tested severely to earn their trust.
...
Because they are already provided with companions in the form of family, tribal elves and those with a small grouping that is their family will find less reason to make companions out of outsiders. Tribeless elves, armed with their overwhelming distrust for anyone but themselves, will likely find much reason to apply tests to determine those that are loyal, and those that are not.
...
The mixture of pride, nomadic tendencies, and the natural ability to run makes all elves ridicule the riding of mounts. To rely upon another beast to carry one around is considered an extreme sign of weakness among elves (even more than the inability to steal!).

It is sometimes said that most elves forgive the riding of mounts by other races, but this isn't entirely true. While they realize that it is customary for some other races to ride mounts, they still perceive it as a sign of weakness. It usually doesn't change much, however, as the pride and tribal nature of elves makes them think of others as weak to begin with.

Views towards magickers:
Nothing explicit, but presumably city elves would have the same views towards magickers as humans.

Views towards rinthers:
Nothing explicit, but the eastside of the Labyrinth is where a lot of city elves live (but not exclusively).

Desert Elves/Kuraci/Coded Tribals.  

I believe the clan documentation has information on these.

Someone from Morins/Cenyr/Mul Outpost/Red Storm Village

Not sure.

I've never found city-elves unplayable.  That is very important.  They are -not- unplayable.  Nor are they boring, or fucked, or any of this other drivel.  Elves are completely capable of doing whatever you want to do with them, as long as you aren't going in with the expectation of everyone loving you and involving you or getting into clans that you already know you can't get into.  There is a good reason why they're usually at least half-dipped into the criminal element, and why they're careful who they trust.

That being said, that in no way shape or form speaks out against the idea that city elves, properly functioning, would have clan options, but I'm far more in favor of city elf tribes being apped into than an IC recruitment clan.  And I'm far more in favor of there being 2 or 3 small tribes than one big one.  2 or 3 small ones emphasizes the weakness and strength of the elves.  If you piss off one tribe, it sucks.  If you fuck up enough to unify all of them against you, you just seriously fucked up.  But the latter is hard to do because their allegiance is to themselves.  Not to the 'rinth.  Not to other criminals.  Not to templars, not to soldiers, not to mages, not to sorcerers.  It's their tribe.  Involvement in matters that don't concern their tribe are purely on a 'benefit for no cost' scenario.

I'm not sure where the idea that westside is anti-elf came from, but it's been perpetuated long enough that elven options are no longer there.  But I used to run my elves with the Guild often.  The Guild used to have PC leaders who were elves.  Not sure why this shift came about, but it's meh and not as important as it is puzzling...an elf acting alone and building his own network of trusted individuals over a long course of time can make themselves stronger than many IC clans get.

I don't find the amount of racism against elves lacking at all.  But I also am very firmly rooted, as a frequent player of them, in opposition to this thing that comes up now and again calling them unplayable.  It's like someone dipped their toes into the pool, felt it was colder than their liking, and as a result, the pool is useless.

Agree with Armaddict.

Unplayable might be hyperbole. But I don't think it's far off. You need to stretch the elven documentation to it's limits to make a city-elf role properly work and isolate yourself from most of the playerbase that will just as likely find some lame reason to kill you. Not to mention a slough of other problems that make city-elves pointlessly difficult. This has been hashed over a thousand times.

The bottom line is, is that if I want to play an outsider character that might get some hate; I'll just play a half-elf.

Eh, the docs themselves make elves unplayable for me. I don't typically do stealth roles or enjoy being the one on the committing side of thievery IC.

That said, I'm with Jingo on the half-elves thing. If I'm not playing a human, it's usually in favor of a half elf. I think half elf hate is very dichotomous IC. People either totally overplay it or totally underplay it, in my experience, though it does even out after a point, to sort of an okay middle ground, it could still be stepped up a little.

Eh, I don't find them particularly difficult to play, and i've played more than a few. I think if you're an ACHIEVEMENT player, you aren't going to find city elves very developed or fun. Or if you are an EXPLORER player, you aren't going to get very far with an elf. I dunno what kind of player I am. I guess I enjoy the RP of the moment which City Elves can provide plenty of. A tribe is nice, when they are around. I'd prefer to see more of them in the game, or to have their debilitating pride/fear of mounts disappear over time.

99% explorer on the bartle test, and I also just don't like taking stuff from others. Elves will never be my cup of tea because of the qualities that make them elves.

I get other people's points about the tribe angle though, and appreciate them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSMLx44DqFc

I'm 67% griefer. I'll hate for you weak-willed ninnies.

I was thinking about this a little more.  As a post-enlightenment person living in the 21st century in the ivory tower, it's hard to really get into the mindset of a bona fide xenophobe.  (I also had troubles understanding Trump supporters.)  This, I think, makes RPing a xenophobe a daunting task, and I think I might not be alone here.

There are a couple approaches -- but I think the main thing is to not compare Zalanthan racism to RL racism in the last couple hundred years.  You have to reach much much further back in history to get good examples.

1. Externally-motivated racism. Treat racism (and friends) as a primitive view based on naivity that, once the light gets shined and you realize that your racism (and friend) was based on a misconception and lack of knowledge, you abandon it: hey, that magicker didn't curse me, or that elf didn't steal from me, etc.  Hence, you still put on the facade of racism (and friends) when in good company but on the sly you'll kank that elf, breed, gemmed, or whatever, because even though society still thinks its gross, you've become enlightened.

2. Internally-motivated racism. Treat racism (and friends) as deeply-set superstitious personal beliefs.  No matter how many times you meet an exception -- a gick that doesn't curse you -- you just can't chase that chill deep down inside that there's just something gross about gicks, elves, etc.  Consider a snake handler, or someone that trains lions, or something: you might be comfortable enough to work with them, but you still feel inside its gross.  Hence, on this view, you wouldn't kank that elf, breed, gemmed, regardless of what society says.  On this view: even if society thinks its fine, you still think its gross and you just can't shake that feeling..

I don't know if that's clear, but I think what works better for me and feels more Zalanthan is #2.  (One reason I like #2 is because if my character does fuck/have feelings for that elf or breed, she feels really gross about it and it creates psychological conflict.)

I think a big factor is the word itself. People are responding to racism. The docs refer to racism. It's not racism. It's speciesism. Elves aren't a race. They're a species. There's no racism on Armageddon - you won't find humans having learned notions about black people vs. whites, tablelands tribals vs. Red Storm denizens. It's more of a "orangutan vs. gorilla vs. chimpanzee" kind of comparison. For humans in Armageddon, the elf might be considered the rhesis monkey version of the various humanoid species, while for elves, humans might be considered the chimpanzee version of humanoid species. They're not all humans with different colors or genetic traits. They're completely different species. That is WHY dwarves and humans produce muls. That is WHY half-elves are reviled. That is WHY they're considered "abominations." Because you're not just boinking a guy with different colored skin. You're boinking a creature from another species entirely.

Quote from: Lizzie on June 25, 2016, 12:28:03 PM
I think a big factor is the word itself. People are responding to racism. The docs refer to racism. It's not racism. It's speciesism. Elves aren't a race. They're a species. There's no racism on Armageddon - you won't find humans having learned notions about black people vs. whites, tablelands tribals vs. Red Storm denizens. It's more of a "orangutan vs. gorilla vs. chimpanzee" kind of comparison. For humans in Armageddon, the elf might be considered the rhesis monkey version of the various humanoid species, while for elves, humans might be considered the chimpanzee version of humanoid species. They're not all humans with different colors or genetic traits. They're completely different species. That is WHY dwarves and humans produce muls. That is WHY half-elves are reviled. That is WHY they're considered "abominations." Because you're not just boinking a guy with different colored skin. You're boinking a creature from another species entirely.

Yeah, I agree with this.  I think its helpful to sometimes think of it like bestiality (at least vis-a-vis the different species).  Anti-magickism is different (and easier to grasp I think).  Xenophobia (Allanaki citizen vs. tribal) is a little less obvious.

If you look at it from a biological perspective, cross-species xenophobia is a survival trait. These different species are competing for the same resources.

Quote from: Lizzie on June 25, 2016, 12:28:03 PM
I think a big factor is the word itself. People are responding to racism. The docs refer to racism. It's not racism. It's speciesism. Elves aren't a race. They're a species. There's no racism on Armageddon - you won't find humans having learned notions about black people vs. whites, tablelands tribals vs. Red Storm denizens. It's more of a "orangutan vs. gorilla vs. chimpanzee" kind of comparison. For humans in Armageddon, the elf might be considered the rhesis monkey version of the various humanoid species, while for elves, humans might be considered the chimpanzee version of humanoid species. They're not all humans with different colors or genetic traits. They're completely different species. That is WHY dwarves and humans produce muls. That is WHY half-elves are reviled. That is WHY they're considered "abominations." Because you're not just boinking a guy with different colored skin. You're boinking a creature from another species entirely.

Well, true, but keep in mind that people of lesser races breed with the Irish all the time.  We just call those children Demi-Gods.

I guess what I am saying is maybe not all halfbreeds are b....

Sorry, threw up in my mouth a little there.

Carry on.

I wonder why Breeds are so easy to make then, eh?



I remember a post from a while back joking that what if a noble's aide/scientist/whatever the fuck found out everyone has a little elf blood in them and that the results should never come out openly.

Quote from: bardlyone on June 21, 2016, 10:57:50 PM
Hate is far too bland a spice to pepper 90% of Zalanthas with.

I'd fear magickers quicker than hate them. I fear snakes, but they're beautiful and interesting from a distance. I just don't want to get close to one.

I'd pity breeds before hating them. Because they're broken by definition and will never have acceptance (real acceptance) or emotional stability in most cases.

I distrust people from the other city-state before hating them, because they might be spies. Though I might hate aspects of their culture.

There are a lot of different negative ways to react. I think hate is overplayed, and most of the time, people put as much thought and depth into how 'hate' manifests as they do into how to play a 'villain', and it often comes off one dimensional and forced.

I agree fully with you here, I find that hate is often the most overplayed one, theres many ways to be negative to someone without acting on hate alone.

Quote from: Jihelu on June 25, 2016, 04:21:53 PM
I wonder why Breeds are so easy to make then, eh?

I think of them like coydogs. :)

This might have been answered already in documentation or the like, but do Delfs have more favor for city elfs than a regular city human? They are both just as removed from the tribe unless you consider the race to be a far removed extension of the tribe.

Quote from: gotdamnmiracle on July 09, 2016, 07:13:25 PM
This might have been answered already in documentation or the like, but do Delfs have more favor for city elfs than a regular city human? They are both just as removed from the tribe unless you consider the race to be a far removed extension of the tribe.

I've seen this go both ways, obviously depending on the tribes involved you can get a multitude of reactions but one thing to remember is that elves are very proud. A desert elf very well might see a c-elf born and raised within the walls with disgust, while there is only ONE elf race a d-elf would never consider themselves to be anything like a city-elf in any aspect other than they probably both speak Allundean. There's nothing to say a d-elf doesn't find some respect in a c-elves ability to succeed in a city ruled by round-ears, or even prefer to deal with c-elves over round-ears when it comes time to do trading etc.

Players can decide what attitudes best fit their pc and the tribes that don't have hard documentation concerning relations with outsiders, the most important thing to remember though is that a d-elf and a c-elf would never consider eachother to be the same.

I always remember the golden rule:
Be generally nice to everyone you meet and talk shit about them behind their back like everyone does anyway.

The people using the word 'racism' are getting it wrong, as they do when discussing real-world race relations. It's not about an inexplicable urge to oppose or reject members of other races. It's about having attitudes that fit in with reality. Are elves manipulative and deceptive, oftentimes acting like petty con artists? Then you probably don't want to be their friend, and if you have a sense of justice, you probably want to be their enemy. Are half-elves neurotic and likely suffering from a personality disorder? Then you don't want to get emotionally entangled with them, and besides, some of them share the treacherous ways of their elven parent. Are dwarves stubborn and keen to dismiss those who do not fit in with their plans? Then you will probably be as aloof of them as they are of you. Are half-giants dumb? Then you will not take them very seriously. What about muls? Well, everyone knows they're extremely aggressive, so it's sensible not to spend time with them, because if you ever say the wrong thing and they go berzerk on you, it'll be over in seconds.

As for magickers, their powers often involve causing illness, burning people alive and wrecking their minds. Once you do find out about their powers, will you really expect these people to use them for good and friendly purposes? And even if someone introduces themselves as a magickal healer or traveller, can you really trust that they aren't fiddling with powers of death and defilement instead?

"Racism" is not illogical, but simply the natural way of interacting with characters of various races. Likewise, the common people's wariness towards magick is quite reasonable given what magickers normally do.

I don't think its the racism that isn't being portrayed, specifically, its that people are actually seemingly afraid of conflict that might end poorly for their PC. Not everyone, but a decent amount of people that don't care to discriminate against that elf, because legit 5 more will crawl out of the woodwork to murderstab you.

I mean. Its realistic. The issue is, its too easy to go right to stabbing and killing, and a lot of times even -I- will avoid a particular reaction just because while my PC probably believes it, I might be afraid of the rammifications.

if I play arm again, I'll make a throw-away f-me, breed water gicker...

I will kank anything that can be kanked.

I will spread some form of VD that I will beg staff to spread w. each PC I kank.

Even if you say you hate mudsex on the forums, my emote-fu will cause you to breakdown on a slow night.

And I'll send in kank reports to the bums who kanked a breed gicker.

Someone steal this concept. It's a good one. b/c spreading VD as a f-me, breed gicker is an awesome way to teach a lesson.

[edit: I've sent in Kudos to others w. notes to staff saying they should get karma... for being ruthless in racial hate against a few of my c-elf PCs]

Quote from: nauta on June 23, 2016, 08:13:48 AM

Quote from: bardlyone on June 23, 2016, 04:20:25 AM
I think the biggest thing making city elves "almost unplayable" is a lack of actual tribes, and the long wait and approval/preapproval process plus superimposed outside limitations on the creation of tribes in tandem with that lack. If either of those two factors changed, it would be a huge boon to elven playability.

There wasn't a long wait for me.

I wouldn't mind experimenting with eliminating this line:

"Only four (4) PC members are allowed per family or tribe--and not just four alive at one time, but four PCs, total. This includes your PC."

Change it to something like:

"Only four (4) PC members are allowed alive at one time per family or tribe, including your PC.  If there are no PCs in the tribe, then the tribe is dead (i.e., fully virtual and no longer open to play).  Otherwise, people can keep applying for a role as long as there is an open slot.  There is a six month pause before you can re-apply for the same tribe."

Hence, if three of your tribemembers die, you can refresh the role call.  If all four die, well, nice run, game over.

Is there a thread on this? If not, I feel there should be. Not saying too many players would do this, but there's always the potential meta-gaming exception out there who will either purposefully, or possibly subconsciously, murder a key member (which at an overall max of four, they're ALL key members, sort of) of a tribe either to win armageddon, or even worse, just for the evulz (hopefully, this very, very rarely happens), knowing that the tribe/family can never be replenished by some sort of rolecall thread pulling from the virtual population.

Also, to my understanding, there's sometimes that day one (or if you're extremely unlucky, three of them) character who sneaks into a tribal/family rolecall who can't resist beetles, vultures, that massive sinkhole, or a sudden and unexplainable urge to free the slaves. Would be nice if there could be one to three mulligans, so a simple and honest mistake on the part of the one making the family rolecall doesn't immediately flush it all down the urinal, cigarette butts and all... though I think, in this scenario, it's more of a case of, choose wisely.

QuoteNot saying too many players would do this, but there's always the potential meta-gaming exception out there who will either purposefully, or possibly subconsciously, murder a key member (which at an overall max of four, they're ALL key members, sort of) of a tribe either to win armageddon, or even worse, just for the evulz (hopefully, this very, very rarely happens), knowing that the tribe/family can never be replenished by some sort of rolecall thread pulling from the virtual population.

How is this different than any other construct PC's make in the game, or even clans?  People target leaders.  People target assets to their opposition.  I'd say that they should be very careful who they make enemies of, rather than deciding that there is a huge virtual pool of people to draw on to keep things going.  You aren't making the Sun Runners or Jaxa Pah when you create an elven tribe/family.  You're one of the small groups that is just as vulnerable as any other small group in politics.  If they are worried about someone killing family members, that is incentive to either remove the threat, or to make sure it's not a threat via diplomacy or other means.  I think this is an insistence on some sort of permanence in a realm where we've already made things far more long lasting than they were, and with more support even.

I am not against actual tribes being put in, for city elves in particular, but I don't think PC-created tribes need additional help in surviving the rigors and dangers of the city-political realm until certain milestones have been hit that mark them as something bigger than just another of the thousands of small families and tribes that spring up and are wiped out on a relatively routine basis of such structures.  These aren't all thousand year old bloodlines, nor will they be.

Quote from: Armaddict on July 27, 2016, 11:58:54 PM

QuoteNot saying too many players would do this, but there's always the potential meta-gaming exception out there who will either purposefully, or possibly subconsciously, murder a key member (which at an overall max of four, they're ALL key members, sort of) of a tribe either to win armageddon, or even worse, just for the evulz (hopefully, this very, very rarely happens), knowing that the tribe/family can never be replenished by some sort of rolecall thread pulling from the virtual population.

How is this different than any other construct PC's make in the game, or even clans?  People target leaders.  People target assets to their opposition.  I'd say that they should be very careful who they make enemies of, rather than deciding that there is a huge virtual pool of people to draw on to keep things going.  You aren't making the Sun Runners or Jaxa Pah when you create an elven tribe/family.  You're one of the small groups that is just as vulnerable as any other small group in politics.  If they are worried about someone killing family members, that is incentive to either remove the threat, or to make sure it's not a threat via diplomacy or other means.  I think this is an insistence on some sort of permanence in a realm where we've already made things far more long lasting than they were, and with more support even.

I am not against actual tribes being put in, for city elves in particular, but I don't think PC-created tribes need additional help in surviving the rigors and dangers of the city-political realm until certain milestones have been hit that mark them as something bigger than just another of the thousands of small families and tribes that spring up and are wiped out on a relatively routine basis of such structures.  These aren't all thousand year old bloodlines, nor will they be.

You get targeted simply for existing sometimes (I know I have), and that's all I'll say about that. "Be careful" simply isn't a sufficient strategy.

I'm not even going to debate it with you, all I mostly said is why can't this idea have its own thread, and provided a few far-flung scenarios that can and do sometimes happen, particularly with more powerful groups (which, yes, you shouldn't piss them off, that's a given, but see my sentence above).

Edit: Moving it to the other thread.

Quote
You get targeted simply for existing sometimes (I know I have), and that's all I'll say about that. "Be careful" simply isn't a sufficient strategy.

+1 :/

I will say that playing a City Elf definitely gives you one or maybe two insights into being racially disadvantaged in a society geared to work against you and keep you down. While I would never compare it to the 'African American Experience' in America, at least not without a bit of tongue-and-cheek parody involved, it definitely mirrors much of the societal/racial disfunction in America, except elves are racially inclined to steal, lie, and cheat. Oh, and elves really -aren't- very good Guards or employees. Basically, everything you think about Elves is true, but Elves are just like 'Wha Happen?'

When I do play a City Elf, I can almost guarantee every other time I log in, someone is blaming something on me or another elf I know. It's OOCly so amusing, and ICly so distressing most of the time. When I play an elf, I usually avoid the Arena like the plague, because what stops someone from pointing you out and getting you tossed in? Especially in a place like Zalanthas -- Humans don't have rights, at least none that a Templar could easily overlook. An elf? Pfah! They might as well have 'criminal' in their sdesc (some do).

"Sir, a Mindbender is on the loose!"
"Well, roundup the nearest elf."
"But sir, elves can't be mindbenders, it says so in the 'Dummies Guide to Zalanthas' you read all the time..."
"I don't care, if you don't get me an elf in five minutes, i'll put elf ears on you and execute you myself. Who taught you to read?"
"Errr...Some elf I know..."
"Well, find another elf that is that elf's friend, and meet me in the arena. On the double, Private!"

So I guess I would say I think elf hate is alive and well, for sure. It isn't 'hate' per se, but it is definitely societally encouraged and motivated racism.

I agree it's alive and healthy, Reiloth.

It's one of those things you have to get used to as an elf player.  The frustration is real, when you absolutely did nothing and had no intention of doing anything, and it goes poorly for you.

If you want to feel what it's like to be able to have anyone you want be an antagonist based off how you view things, play some elves loyal to eastside labyrinth.  You will learn how to view clans you thought of as the heros as villains really fast.

I feel like I blame elves for shit ironically now.

It makes sense a bit icly to do that. But it really isn't fun to play a part of that.

I've never gone out to accuse someone ic of something I've done, though hell I probably should more and get more people killed, but if I had to I would pick that generic elf that sneaks around and steals while being unaffiliated.
What does this mean?
It means if you do illegal shit as an elf you should probably look to the Templarate, LOW KEY STYLE, for some protection.
Think Tuluk but not at all.

I read only some of the first page, but I have to agree and disagree with the OP. Now, here is my reasoning. First, I often see quite a few elves and even breeds discriminated against, those few that are well accepted usually have been around quite a while, and sometimes I even just have to say, oh. Friendly to face. That kind of thing is possible in game. The discrimination can be subtle. Now, I don't have issues with how people want to play, in fact, I think it's mainly sponsored roles or the NPC, vNPC of the population that should react at times. Now, I left this for later, because I wanted to note this is an issue I've seen. Mages as well as tribal people seem a bit overly accepted. While there might be background to it, I do like to see it when both of them receive their dislike. However, again, with Mages or those in clans, or Mages that are in clans, do you want to upset the people they work for by treating them with some manner of dislike? That is up to you. To be honest, I generally play characters that are accepting to an extent, but often due to backstory or an in-game reason, and sometimes they might not really like what they see, although they will keep quiet for safety. That being said, remember that half-elves do exist. Whether most are the product of one thing or another, there is something of a status quo that makes these matters seem... Well, questionable, really. Technically the PCs are a small bit of the population. I can honestly say even if I saw five PCs fawning over a Mage, I'm more likely to imagine the 100 vNPCs within the room are not happy and satisfied.

I agree with pretty much everything you said thewolfen3. My only disagreement is that I think breeds should be viewed as worse than elves. Literally my only difference in few.

Quote from: Hauwke on October 13, 2016, 05:43:43 AM
I agree with pretty much everything you said thewolfen3. My only disagreement is that I think breeds should be viewed as worse than elves. Literally my only difference in few.

They definitely seem to have more love than actual elves. Their main thing, was supposed to be how they are disliked on both sides. Generally I think I've seen some respected quite a bit, which is odd. Although, I have one thing to add to my previous words. That is, I think Bynners are usually an exception, if only in a forced interaction working together you all equally suck view their Sergeants put them through.

From a work perspective, especially through the Byn, I think Breeds should be liked/valued more than elves.
Because breeds can ride.
Ride very good.
Elves refuse to because they're stupid and run good.
Spoilers, they don't run good.


Atleast liked more in that regard.

Quote from: Jihelu on October 13, 2016, 11:17:13 AM
From a work perspective, especially through the Byn, I think Breeds should be liked/valued more than elves.
Because breeds can ride.
Ride very good.
Elves refuse to because they're stupid and run good.
Spoilers, they don't run good.


Atleast liked more in that regard.

Counterpoint:

With an elf, you KNOW what to expect. You KNOW they are going to lie, they are going to try and steal from you, and you KNOW they're going to be lazy.

With a breed, you have NO idea if they're going to be useful, or break down crying, or threaten to run off because they're being moody, or try and steal from you and then apologize and then get mad at YOU for being so open to thievery in the first place etc etc.

Quote from: Jihelu on October 13, 2016, 11:17:13 AM
Atleast liked more in that regard.

By these same standards, human gicks should be the best Runners ever.

Breeds are gross, sure, but they have to have some human element...in there. For sure, they're freaks of nature. Filthy and against everything I stand for.

However, elves are, to my mind, significantly more alien.

Elves have cemented themselves a spot inside the social and economic order of the city states. At least that's always been my interpretation based on documentation and NPC clues. Despite the player head-canon that loudly proclaims otherwise.

Half-elves don't have that spot. They're wayward castaways that should expect to be kicked around at best.

For the points posted above this post, except Path I guess, I change my statement.

Quote from: whitt on October 13, 2016, 01:10:14 PM

Quote from: Jihelu on October 13, 2016, 11:17:13 AM
Atleast liked more in that regard.

By these same standards, human gicks should be the best Runners ever.

They are.

Nevermind!

In terms of coded use a breed with a good stat roll could definately be far superior to even a human runner. Because they dont need a ride subguild. Just tack them to the behind of someone who can direct them and let them loose, and then when you get back you can exploit their (probably) crafting subguild.


From code they are great, ICly it should be different.