Zalanthian Culture: Embrace your HATE

[Lizzie]

I don't follow the docs much, but sort of pick some general hatred for each character (assuming they live long enough to talk to anyone).

For instance, the docs say "everyone hates half breeds", but a given character of mine might LIKE half breeds but despise dwarves. Or maybe he doesn't mind gicks so much but hates the dun cloaks so much he spits on the ground every time he sees one. Or he despises spice users and dealers. Or left handed redheads. Whatever. Just mix it up a little bit.

I see the docs as guidelines but I'll be damned if I want my every RP response dictated or scrutinized.

Certain docs aren't merely guidelines, though. Certain docs are culture data indoctrinated into the entirety of the population.. Your character would - at the very least - MIND magickers. They are scary scary people who wield a power that only a tiny minority of the population understand - which is to say, the people who wield it. And even some of them don't understand it.

We fear that which we don't know. This is a universal fact.

Your character SHOULD have some fear, awe, or at the very least, suspicion, with regards magickers. How your character responds to that fear/suspicion is entirely up to you - THAT is where you have your options. But disregarding the docs entirely is what creates OOC conflict where there should be IC conflict. Sure, your character might have reason to hate dwarves. They're freaky creatures. But he would ALSO have a fear/loathing/suspicion of magickers. A dwarven magicker? Bonus points - you get to actively express that loathing and it'd make sense in the game world because everyone ELSE will assume you're expressing what is NORMAL - which is - the hatred of magickers.

Even when I was playing in a tribe that embraced and worshipped one of the elements, awhile back - the mage who wielded that element's power was to be feared. We worshipped the element, feared the mage. You NEVER wanted to get on that PC's bad side and some preferred to just avoid that PC unless situations required interaction. And then - it was with caution, fear, and boucoup respect.

Your character, unless he is an elf, SHOULD treat elves as if he thought they were all thieves. How you choose to portray that treatment is - again - entirely up to you. But the documentation is clear: elves ARE all thieves. It's in their DNA, and any elf who is behaving like he's not a thief, is either fighting his own genetic code, or scamming you (which would make actual sense). This is a universal truth, a universal fact within the game world.

These documents aren't written to be disregarded. The writers of those docs didn't spend weeks upon weeks of their own free time just to have someone say "Nah, I don't like those, I'll make up my own."

HOW you present your interpretation of those docs is up to you. But you are expected to present some interpretation of them, and not dismiss them because they don't suit you.

[strikeout edit - even elves know they're all thieves - that's why they have trust trials.]

[Miradus]

I haven't seen that in game. The only magickers I have ever ran into (that I know of) have been gemmers who come in and sit in the Gaj like it's just an ordinary thing. People laugh and joke with them and trade with them without there ever being any real issue.

In the wild, I have not ran into any rogue gicks to actually interact with so it's never come up. Almost the same with elves.

[Lizzie]

I haven't seen that in game. The only magickers I have ever ran into (that I know of) have been gemmers who come in and sit in the Gaj like it's just an ordinary thing. People laugh and joke with them and trade with them without there ever being any real issue.

In the wild, I have not ran into any rogue gicks to actually interact with so it's never come up. Almost the same with elves.

It IS an ordinary thing for the gemmed to frequent the Gaj. Ordinary, being "if a gemmer is going to hang out anywhere in public, it'll be with the rest of the low-life denizens of the city. Half-elves, elves, the unwashed tribals, unaffiliated commoners, half-giants, merchant house clanned northerners, people from Red Storm, etc. etc." Not ordinary as in "you should expect to see at least a dozen gemmers all playing kruth together at any given moment."

But it being something you might expect to see, doesn't mean it's something you should expect to be content with. Tolerant, perhaps. But somewhere in the back of your character's head, will be some tale, fable, myth, legend, warning from mom when you were a toddler - about how magicks are scary things and the monster in the closet that makes bumping sounds when she turns the lamp out for bedtime - is a magicker.

[nauta]

Here are some helpful (I think) previous discussions on how Zalanthan racism works out:

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php?topic=41823.0
http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,29662.0
http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php?topic=7332.0

[BadSkeelz]

The challenge of continually roleplaying social antagonism is that the playerbase's desire for positive interaction and cooperation will almost inevitably win out in the long term. It's easy to be antagonistic in that first meeting with the elf/breed/magicker/foreigner/social pariah, but if you keep interacting with them, and they're a fun or useful character to have around, antagonism naturally decreases.

I don't think the playerbase has the ability to properly balance the in-character requirements of hating on folks long-term with the out-of-character convenience of having friends and fun in game. The human trend is to play to the exception and "eventually" make friends with those your character otherwise would not.

[Miradus]

What BS said, plus I'll add:

I also think the changing of minds is fun to roleplay as well. "I hate breeds" becomes "I hate breeds but not this one because he saved my ass while I lay dying on the road" which may eventually become "I had a breed friend once who was murdered because he was a breed. Maybe they aren't all bad."

If it's part of a character arc, then it's not really all that bad, is it? Of course if you come in on the tail end of the arc and have no clue how it got to happen then it's pretty lousy to judge that this person is just roleplaying poorly.

[Reiloth]

I think the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

What BS mentions is true, to an extent, depending on your own temperament as a PC. I personally play people who are antagonistic no matter what, even if it means they don't get to interact with people, because I uphold the documentation of the game, in regards to racism, anti-magick sentiment, and so on.

[Jihelu]

Same thing with the whole gay hate in America that has really died down.
"I hate gays"
"I hate gays...except Jerry down the street, he's real cool"
"Gays are alright I guess"
Then you end up going to Jerry's wedding and wish him and his husband a happy life. That sorta thing.



Only if you go to an elf wedding I will burn your house down.

[valeria]

Same thing with the whole gay hate in America that has really died down.
"I hate gays"
"I hate gays...except Jerry down the street, he's real cool"
"Gays are alright I guess"
Then you end up going to Jerry's wedding and wish him and his husband a happy life. That sorta thing.



Only if you go to an elf wedding I will burn your house down.

It's... pretty clear you're not LGBTQ+. Queer hate is still alive and well, everything from microagressions to employment discrimination to violence. Including an extremely recent mass shooting.

So I'm not really sure about your comparison, here.

[Jihelu]

Same thing with the whole gay hate in America that has really died down.
"I hate gays"
"I hate gays...except Jerry down the street, he's real cool"
"Gays are alright I guess"
Then you end up going to Jerry's wedding and wish him and his husband a happy life. That sorta thing.



Only if you go to an elf wedding I will burn your house down.

It's... pretty clear you're not LGBTQ+. Queer hate is still alive and well, everything from microagressions to employment discrimination to violence. Including an extremely recent mass shooting.

So I'm not really sure about your comparison, here.

It's a pretty simple comparison.
People hate elves.
People hate gays.
People over time have hated gays less.
People over time can hate elves less.

[Malken]

People over time can hate elves less.

No they can't. OMG just thinking about it makes me want to throw up.

[Jihelu]

People over time can hate elves less.

No they can't. OMG just thinking about it makes me want to throw up.

I lol'd.



I'd bet money theres a study on this:
In times of hardships people either get extremely racist out of stress or lose their racist tendencies to help survive. I'd say its why in game you tend to see nobles less lovey lovey of other races and people on the poverty line/inde's tend to be friends with them, or not because still racist. Or nobles just follow documentation better and understand human master race.


ALso @Valeria
I'm not saying people hating gays/elves/blacks/that one kid down the street because he fucking took my bike that one time like a useless piece of shit has stopped.
I'm saying that is can transition out. Obviously not everyone is buddies with Jerry/likes Jerry/wants anything to do with Jerry but it phases out more so.
It's how you go from having people being sprayed with hoses to being able to them becoming president. People still hate black people. But I'd say it's a lot less than what elves experience now.
Or atleast should experience. Seriously people need to hit elves more.

[Majikal]

I think a lot of the problem is players think racism is up for debate in Armageddon.

It's not.

Be fucking racist.

[Jihelu]

I think a lot of the problem is players think racism is up for debate in Armageddon.

It's not.

Be fucking racist.

I feel like I'm just trying to justify why people would /not/ be racist.


I still like being racist ig.
be racist.

[BadSkeelz]

If people are feeling at ease around elves to the point of wanting to cut them some slack, then Elves are not holding up their end of the documentation of being living vermin who will inevitably screw you over somehow.

[nauta]

If people are feeling at ease around elves to the point of wanting to cut them some slack, then Elves are not holding up their end of the documentation of being living vermin who will inevitably screw you over somehow.

Or they are, and you're the mark, mate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVwYKtgFYCc

[Miradus]

There's also a lot of variance in your interaction.

"There's an elf. I'm going to shiv him."

versus

"Hey, new elf friend, look at this big diamond I found out grebbing. How much do you think it's worth? I keep it right here in my canvas beltpouch."

What do some of you get out of playing roleplay police? Seriously? Do you think staff is going to lurk in the forum and say, "Wow, that person really took that guy to task no his usage of the radio call signal 'okay' being not appropriate for the campaign setting. We should give them extra karma."? You're not creating a better game. You're just creating a flat, one dimensional environment where everyone's interactions have to be the same.

[BadSkeelz]

I still laugh over the long-lived and well-played characters I've killed for violating social norms.

Also, playing and enforcing docs does get you karma.

[Jihelu]

I always make friends with bigs and muls because they can hurt me

[Miradus]

Killing them for violating social norms that your character holds is decent roleplay.

OOC carping on the forum is not.

As for getting karma for enforcing docs, well, no wonder people are bitching that this game feel static if you're setting down guidelines for how all characters must behave. I haven't seen that in my time here. Nobody in authority has sent me any emails telling me I can or can't do something. The only background I've ever had not approved was my first one where my dwarf had a beard.

So I'm left with the gut feeling that staff cares less about this than the roleplay police do.

[Beethoven]

In my experience, staff just wants you to have justification for your character's feelings and motives, and to take the docs into consideration and respect them even (especially) when you're playing outside social norms.

If social norms were 100% binding at all times, no one would ever pursue sorcery.

[Jihelu]

In my experience, staff just wants you to have justification for your character's feelings and motives, and to take the docs into consideration and respect them even (especially) when you're playing outside social norms.

If social norms were 100% binding at all times, no one would ever pursue sorcery.

Or breed with elves

[Cendell]

Meh.

Elves steal everything, have weird ears and....don't have any weird powers.

With magickers (Gemmers at least) my characters are always a little more scared than disgusted, who knows what they can do? Certainly not most of my characters.

In a mob, with some sweet torch and pitchfork action, sure. But one on one, I think avoidance and cautious and grudging interaction if forced into it are perfectly IC between most people and gemmers (Not saying your bone sword swinging badass can't spit on them in the Gaj of course)

Not elves though. Pointy eared long necked bastards

[bardlyone]

Meh.

Elves steal everything, have weird ears and....don't have any weird powers.

With magickers (Gemmers at least) my characters are always a little more scared than disgusted, who knows what they can do? Certainly not most of my characters.

In a mob, with some sweet torch and pitchfork action, sure. But one on one, I think avoidance and cautious and grudging interaction if forced into it are perfectly IC between most people and gemmers (Not saying your bone sword swinging badass can't spit on them in the Gaj of course)

Not elves though. Pointy eared long necked bastards

This. That and people don't like having their shit taken, which elves do. Elves give you a reason to hate them. Magickers are full of scary mystery curses which, sure, might make SOME people hate them, but unless you vastly outnumber them as part of a faceless mob, as is pointed out, is more reason to fear than hate them.

[Miradus]

I have had two types of experiences with gicks in game.

1. Gemmers who are so bored they are desperately trying to involve you in a dozen plots or to get you to go outside the walls and fetch things for you.

2. Rogue gicks in the wilderness who pelted me with gelatinous meat.