Zalanthian Culture: Embrace your HATE

[Taven]

This thread is a break off from the Raiders thread, where the subject originally came up.

Zalanthas isn't a friendly place. It's a place that by RL standards is horrific. It has a plethora of racism (fantasy races only, not skin color based), discrimination based on origin, discrimination based on abilities (Re: Magickers), and a host of other nasty default expectations.

Despite this, I rarely see this RPed out. People complain about a static world, while taking actions that make Zalanthas a culture of hugging cuddles and togetherness.

People kank gemmer and gickers without regard, people kank elves and breed without regard, people hire and utilize gemmers/'gickers/elf-blooded without concerns. People work with others based on what they can do, without concern to origin (Tuluki, tribal, Stormer, 'Rinther, etc), which should matter.

This is something that's been true for a very long while. Most people usually come up with the defense of "my character is special and you don't understand". And, yes, PCs can have unique reasons to act a certain way.

I submit, however, that the percentage of PCs who are ignoring something is far higher then those who are acting in accord with their cultural expectations. I would say it's gotten to the level of being a problem.

[Barsook]

I agree.  It's not being played out and I think this is what I'm thinking why the setting is too static.  We need more hate.  More hate equals conflict.

[BadSkeelz]

Fuck Magickers*

*Figuratively, not literally. Yes, even the hot ones. And no, I don't mean Krathis.

[Lizzie]

By telling people on the GDB to stop "this" or "that" behavior, you're basically telling people how to roleplay. If you have a problem with someone's roleplay, report it to the staff with the request tool. I could go on and on ad infinitim about my opinion of people who do this, that, and the other thing. But it'll just result in hurt feelings and push people away rather than draw them in.

A lot of times, characters who are behaving friendly toward mages:
1) are one too, you just don't know it (yet)
2) their mother was one, and they were brought up with it.
3) are in a tribe that embraces it.
4) have had a long-term relationship with the mage in question that you might not know anything about, and it probably isn't any of your business, and if you make it your business, you could end up with a shrivelled dick when you wake up one morning, as a demonstration of how MUCH it shouldn't have been any of your business.

Not always - but often enough.

[Taven]

By telling people on the GDB to stop "this" or "that" behavior, you're basically telling people how to roleplay. If you have a problem with someone's roleplay, report it to the staff with the request tool. I could go on and on ad infinitim about my opinion of people who do this, that, and the other thing. But it'll just result in hurt feelings and push people away rather than draw them in.

Yes, if it was the case of one or two people behaving a certain way.

But what happens when it's so pervasive that culturally speaking YOU are the odd one if YOU are acting out the standard culture?

At that point, it's a larger issue.

I remember during the end of the world plots, magickers became central to a lot of things, magick widely used, etc etc. This lead to a GDB thread that was created about it, addressing this issue in culture. The thread produced a resolution by having people agree that this wasn't what they wanted. It lead to the great karma off, where people voluntarily gave up their karma and agreed not to play magickers, publicly announcing their intent to help restore the balance.

This isn't a thread looking at one or two PCs. It's a thread looking at a larger cultural issue that has been happening for over a RL year and has not seen improvement.

[lostinspace]

Funny enough, I don't see this problem with elves, they seem adequately discriminated against, at least outside of the few clans that hire them, this makes sense to me. Gicks are another story altogether, I played a gick that were completely accepted pretty much wherever they went, and they traveled the Known north to south. The worst reaction I got was a tribal hissing at me or some funny looks. And I've played a lot more that didn't travel as much, but were equally accepted pretty much anywhere but into clans.

[Lizzie]

By telling people on the GDB to stop "this" or "that" behavior, you're basically telling people how to roleplay. If you have a problem with someone's roleplay, report it to the staff with the request tool. I could go on and on ad infinitim about my opinion of people who do this, that, and the other thing. But it'll just result in hurt feelings and push people away rather than draw them in.

Yes, if it was the case of one or two people behaving a certain way.

But what happens when it's so pervasive that culturally speaking YOU are the odd one if YOU are acting out the standard culture?

At that point, it's a larger issue.

I remember during the end of the world plots, magickers became central to a lot of things, magick widely used, etc etc. This lead to a GDB thread that was created about it, addressing this issue in culture. The thread produced a resolution by having people agree that this wasn't what they wanted. It lead to the great karma off, where people voluntarily gave up their karma and agreed not to play magickers, publicly announcing their intent to help restore the balance.

This isn't a thread looking at one or two PCs. It's a thread looking at a larger cultural issue that has been happening for over a RL year and has not seen improvement.

I play mages fairly often. Most of them are "known" publically at one point or another, ICly, usually for an extended period of time. I've experienced mostly "cautious tolerance" from most, the kind of friendliness that you find from new players who don't really understand the significance yet, sometimes my characters just get flat-out ignored. Sometimes there's a little of inbetween. But I can tell you right now, nothing kills a scene more than active aggressive hatred when you're trying to interact with characters in a public place. It's the kind of "drama" that even in an IC fantasy game, my *character* would roll her eyes and think "too much drama" and go away and end the scene right there and then.

You want to be left without anyone to hate, then go ahead and encourage everyone to express hatred for mages IC. It'll just swing the pendulum the other way, and make things even MORE static than you feel it already is.

As for me, I'll continue playing my mages, and behave however my mages behave when someone is nice to them. And that all really depends on the personality of the character I'm playing at the time. It's not a universal thing, nor should it be. THAT would be boring.

[Taven]

You want to be left without anyone to hate, then go ahead and encourage everyone to express hatred for mages IC. It'll just swing the pendulum the other way, and make things even MORE static than you feel it already is.

As for me, I'll continue playing my mages, and behave however my mages behave when someone is nice to them. And that all really depends on the personality of the character I'm playing at the time. It's not a universal thing, nor should it be. THAT would be boring.

Magickers are not a category of people who are meant to be liked, accepted, and trusted. There are some groups who do include them (Oash, primarily) or groups who may work with them. Tribal magickers within their own tribes are a different thing entirely.

Magicker hate isn't always in your face. Because magickers are some scary mofos. But part of being a magicker is expecting that people will dislike you... The same way that if you play a breed, you expect people to dislike you.

If as a whole culture, we're seeing magickers become everyone's friend because of what they can do, or becoming kank partners or lovers without regards to what they can do, it's a problem.

But this thread is not about magickers in specific. They are merely one category of people which Zalanthians discriminate against.

[lostinspace]

I play mages fairly often. Most of them are "known" publically at one point or another, ICly, usually for an extended period of time. I've experienced mostly "cautious tolerance" from most, the kind of friendliness that you find from new players who don't really understand the significance yet, sometimes my characters just get flat-out ignored. Sometimes there's a little of inbetween. But I can tell you right now, nothing kills a scene more than active aggressive hatred when you're trying to interact with characters in a public place. It's the kind of "drama" that even in an IC fantasy game, my *character* would roll her eyes and think "too much drama" and go away and end the scene right there and then.

I too see a lot of the 'just ignore them' play out, which to me seems WAY worse than active aggression. At least with active aggression something is happening, and characters are developing.

[Lizzie]

You want to be left without anyone to hate, then go ahead and encourage everyone to express hatred for mages IC. It'll just swing the pendulum the other way, and make things even MORE static than you feel it already is.

As for me, I'll continue playing my mages, and behave however my mages behave when someone is nice to them. And that all really depends on the personality of the character I'm playing at the time. It's not a universal thing, nor should it be. THAT would be boring.

Magickers are not a category of people who are meant to be liked, accepted, and trusted. There are some groups who do include them (Oash, primarily) or groups who may work with them. Tribal magickers within their own tribes are a different thing entirely.

Magicker hate isn't always in your face. Because magickers are some scary mofos. But part of being a magicker is expecting that people will dislike you... The same way that if you play a breed, you expect people to dislike you.

If as a whole culture, we're seeing magickers become everyone's friend because of what they can do, or becoming kank partners or lovers without regards to what they can do, it's a problem.

But this thread is not about magickers in specific. They are merely one category of people which Zalanthians discriminate against.

Then how about presenting the game world with a mage whose presence demands fear/hatred/loathing? I mean if it bothers you that much. Most of the mages I encounter are nice, cheerful, peppy, useful, even-tempered, etc. etc. etc. The only way you'd even know they were mages at all, is the fact that they have a gem around their throats.

If you want to see more characters hating on mages, then play a hateful mage. If you want to see more people hating on elves, play a hateful elf.

You know - the whole "be the change" thing.

Edited to add: Correct them - if you think your RP is better than theirs - IG. If they are nice to your fearful hateful scary powerful mage, then react in a scary way to reinforce the fact that they SHOULD be afraid.

If your elf is being hit on by a human who wants to have a relationship and maybe some bebbies, then get him naked, rob him, and beat him til he's near death and then leave him in his apartment with the door open so that everyone else can rob him too.

[nauta]

As someone that plays a lot of the downtrodden character options, I have to disagree with Taven on the state of play right now.  I think there's a pretty healthy amount of racism/classism/anti-magickism going on, but perhaps our circles don't overlap.*
 
The two things I'd contribute to the topic though:

o Education. While the gick/elf/breed/rinther should ICly respond to document-bending friendlies however their personality would demand, there is still a kind of OOC onus on them to educate, so to speak, the offender.  What I mean by this is that you can include in your actions at, say, the Gaj, vNPCs behaving according to the documentation -- there's a nice one in the Gaj when a gemmed walks in and patrons grumble and move off to another table.   I usually used this one whenever I came into the Gaj or if I felt someone was being a bit too friendly.  I've also OOC'd newbies the relevant help file.  If you are playing a downtrodden, part of the fun is to be downtrodden.

o Be subtle but not too subtle.  Racism/Classism/Anti-Magickism doesn't have to be overt violence, nor is simply ignoring the downtrodden person really much fun.  I'd rather see a thread in classic Taven-style of ways to express documented racism/classism/anti-magickism that encourage interaction and fun RP scenes.  (LauraMars's original submissions is fantastic in that regard: you had two very different expressions of anti-gemmed sentiment in that scene in Red's.)

* That said, every single one of my cockroach-eating blood-soaked rinthers, gemmed, breeds, and elves has been hit on via the Way in disgustingly obvious ways.


ETA: Here's a link to the Original Submissions:

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,51030.0.html

When I read it, I actually cringed when the pock-marked guy placed hands on the gemmed.  I was like: ehhhh, he's totally getting cursed for that!

[lostinspace]

Even a gick who is an otherwise nice person shouldn't be accepted by most. Magickers are hated and feared by the populace, this is a fact of life on Zalanthas. The general populace does not know what a gick is and isn't capable of, and assumes the worst. Magickers are blamed for disease, bad luck, and any other thing that goes wrong.

[Taven]

Then how about presenting the game world with a mage whose presence demands fear/hatred/loathing?I mean if it bothers you that much. Most of the mages I encounter are nice, cheerful, peppy, useful, even-tempered, etc. etc. etc. The only way you'd even know they were mages at all, is the fact that they have a gem around their throats.

[...]

If you want to see more characters hating on mages, then play a hateful mage. If you want to see more people hating on elves, play a hateful elf.

That's just it. EVERY mage, every gemmer, is someone whose presence demands fear/hatered/loathing. There can be individual character quirks, yes, that make expectations. I'm not arguing that there can't be expectations.

What I am arguing is that per documentation the default view of all of these groups is unfavorable. So, no, it doesn't matter if all gemmers are cheerful and peppy and smiling. They are still magickers. You aren't hating them because they are mean and hateful PCs, you are hating them because they are magickers (or elves, or tribals, or rinthi, or Tuluki, or whatever).

If your elf is being hit on by a human who wants to have a relationship and maybe some bebbies, then get him naked, rob him, and beat him til he's near death and then leave him in his apartment with the door open so that everyone else can rob him too.

This is a great suggestion. By all means, people can do this.

However, what happens when the PC world is too far gone for this to happen? What happens when nobody cares that the human tried to kank an elf, because the human is useful?

What happens when there is no repercussions from other PCs for violating documentation?

I think that is the point where we are at. I think it's something that we, as a playerbase, need to reflect on and consider.

[Lizzie]

Then you need to report player complaints to staff, and ask that they make an official clarification/announcement/request/GDB post/Documentation change/New Rule, or at least enforce the existing rules.

If everyone and their brother is kanking elves and mages, that means all those mages and elves are kanking non-mages and non-elves. THOSE people should possibly be docked karma, because those people should know better.

The example needs to be set from the top down. Newbies can only emulate what they see. If they see elves having human girlfriends, and mages sitting on non-mages laps or spelling up their non-mage pals without any kind of tension roleplayed during the scene, then you can't really expect them to take the "rules" seriously.

[Taven]

I think there's a pretty healthy amount of racism/classism/anti-magickism going on, but perhaps our circles don't overlap.*

* That said, every single one of my cockroach-eating blood-soaked rinthers, gemmed, breeds, and elves has been hit on via the Way in disgustingly obvious ways.

Yep, this is part of the problem. If every single character of a lesser status is getting hit on by someone of a more privileged status, that's a bad sign.

o Education. [...] If you are playing a downtrodden, part of the fun is to be downtrodden.

This is a good suggestion, and I agree with the sentiment.

The one word of caution I would give is that if you are animating vNPCs in your actions, be careful. Sometimes its easy to assume certain things are happening which may not be the case. I know I have personally misjudged the status of vNPC affairs before, though not in an emoting context. When in doubt, you can also wish up to staff.

Generally, as long as you're moderate and considerate of the virtual world, you'll be good! (This is a general comment for readers, rather then specifically directed at you, Nauta)

o Be subtle but not too subtle.  Racism/Classism/Anti-Magickism doesn't have to be overt violence, nor is simply ignoring the downtrodden person really much fun.  I'd rather see a thread in classic Taven-style of ways to express documented racism/classism/anti-magickism that encourage interaction and fun RP scenes.  (LauraMars's original submissions is fantastic in that regard: you had two very different expressions of anti-gemmed sentiment in that scene in Red's.)

I agree that everything doesn't have to be RAWR, IN YOUR FACE. There are lots of different levels of dislike and expressing it. Good suggestion!

[Dresan]

I mixed feelings on this:

I feel publicly people should act a certain way, never do X, Y, Z, you always say/act A, B C. Because society would look down on you otherwise. However, what people do behind closed doors, when they feel no one is looking...well, that is another story. I have no problems with people fucking/hiring elves, breeds, magickers and everything in between....for whatever reason even...so long as they are actively trying to keep it a secret to the public in general and join in stoning those that have failed to keep such deviancy a secret.

I am always dismayed at openly racist people being treated like shit in public.

That said, please use the report tool if you have a problem with someone's role-playing. The most annoying people are still the ones that go on GDBesque rants ICly, usually because they are assuming something which is often wrong. And you people know who you are, so stop ranting in the Gaj or in people's heads

[Taven]

Then you need to report player complaints to staff, and ask that they make an official clarification/announcement/request/GDB post/Documentation change/New Rule, or at least enforce the existing rules.

If everyone and their brother is kanking elves and mages, that means all those mages and elves are kanking non-mages and non-elves. THOSE people should possibly be docked karma, because those people should know better.

The example needs to be set from the top down. Newbies can only emulate what they see. If they see elves having human girlfriends, and mages sitting on non-mages laps or spelling up their non-mage pals without any kind of tension roleplayed during the scene, then you can't really expect them to take the "rules" seriously.

I actually agree that this is a pretty complex problem, and maybe as a community, we need to look at the next step.

If the culture of PCs has shifted outside of documentation as a whole, does staff need to play a more aggressive role in making the world respond appropriately?

Personally, I wouldn't be against that. I think it would provide the pressure needed to make behavior matter again. I think if it is reinforced as an expectation, we'll see more people playing in accordance with that.

[nauta]

The one word of caution I would give is that if you are animating vNPCs in your actions, be careful. Sometimes its easy to assume certain things are happening which may not be the case. I know I have personally misjudged the status of vNPC affairs before, though not in an emoting context. When in doubt, you can also wish up to staff.

Generally, as long as you're moderate and considerate of the virtual world, you'll be good! (This is a general comment for readers, rather then specifically directed at you, Nauta)

Just by way of examples, here are some good interactions with the virtual (and non-player) world on the side of the gemmed from that Original Submissions:

Quietly weaving through the sparse morning crowds, which move away from her, you sit at a boxy wooden bar, claiming a stool at the end.
...
Swinging her legs as they dangle above the tavern floor, the freckled, curly-haired woman piles up some coins on the bartop, waiting patiently for the tall, amber-eyed woman's attention.
...
Finally, the tall, amber-eyed woman turns to the freckled, curly-haired woman at the sound of additional, clinking obsidian coins.

You give the tall, amber-eyed woman 13 obsidian coins for a miniature barrel.

Shoving the additional bribe over, you give the tall, amber-eyed woman 3 coins.

[Taven]

I mixed feelings on this:

I feel publicly people should act a certain way, never do X, Y, Z, you always say/act A, B C. Because society would look down on you otherwise. However, what people do behind closed doors, when they feel no one is looking...well, that is another story. I have no problems with people fucking/hiring elves, breeds, magickers and everything in between....for whatever reason even...so long as they are actively trying to keep it a secret to the public in general and join in stoning those that have failed to keep such deviancy a secret.

There are levels of hate and room for variations. I agree that if you are friendly or utilizing undesirables, you should absolutely work to keep it secret, because it shows that you recognize that what you're doing is outside of the normal realm of expectations. You absolutely should fear people finding out, because of the negative reprecussions.

All that said, I don't think everyone should have a secret magicker buddy, either.

That said, please use the report tool if you have a problem with someone's role-playing. The most annoying people are still the ones that go on GDBesque rants ICly, usually because they are assuming something which is often wrong. And you people know who you are, so stop ranting in the Gaj or in people's heads

This is a general comment, since I'm not sure what specific incidents you're referring to. But people bringing something IC does allow an IC response, too. It gives the opportunity for you to correct their impressions, defends your actions, and so on. It does cause more conflict. So, IC complaining is something I'm all in favor of. It seems like a reasonable IC response.

[Majikal]

Fuck being the exception, now when I'm following the docs it feels like I'm the exception.

Disregard of social divides.
City culture in general (dresscode, beliefs, etc)
Elves with a human's baby.
Humans with elfie's baby.
Half-elves with half-elfie's baby (fucking gross)
Tuluki's with mages.
Mages with non-mages.
Cityfolk with desertfolk.
Dickgirls....


Wanna make arm great again? Quit playing the fucking exception.  

[Lizzie]

Fuck being the exception, now when I'm following the docs it feels like I'm the exception.

Disregard of social divides.
City culture in general (dresscode, beliefs, etc)
Elves with a human's baby.
Humans with elfie's baby.
Half-elves with half-elfie's baby (fucking gross)
Tuluki's with mages.
Mages with non-mages.
Cityfolk with desertfolk.
Dickgirls....


Wanna make arm great again? Quit playing the fucking exception.  

Bolded and underlines to emphasize - that's the exact point I'm trying to make.

[Jihelu]

Most of the time I don't care about hate.
It's not like I don't not care about it...wait what.

But it's like IRL.
People hating on social groups or loving on them.
I'm just "meh".
It isn't like I was raised in a house hold that makes me 'meh', a certain relative of mine is extremely racist.

Could be the same thing in Arm most times. Just because everyone hates a certain group doesn't mean you will.




That being said fuck elves those stealing ass holes.

[Beethoven]

I think it's okay to play an exception, if you have a good reason for it, and take into account culture and background and don't just treat it like "my human thinks elves should be treated equally because he is nice that way." Every character that you think up should be a product of the world documented in the documentation. You should always take into consideration the environment and cultural norms. So while there may be "exceptions" to societal expectations ICly, OOCly there should be no exceptions as far as respecting the docs. And because of the docs, your "exception" characters should expect to be treated like the weirdo freaks they are. So if PCs at the bar aren't making a fuss about it, bring some VNPCs in, kind of like what nauta was saying. RP yourself getting kicked out of the bar for pulling an elven whore onto your lap.

The sad fact is that you can't control what other people play, and there tend to be trends that pop up when a lot of people have the similar "unique" ideas simultaneously. Whether that's based on similar environmental factors subconsciously influencing people, or if there's something like a Jungian collective unconscious doesn't really matter in this case. The point is that things get swingy. And sometimes you will have a lot of "exceptions" at once, which can hurt immersion and make it feel like Zalanthas has become soft. So while I don't think we should be shaming people for playing roles that have well-thought-out reasons for acting in a way that is counter to the norm, we should definitely be encouraging people to play according to the docs as the default, especially when they notice that something like this is a problem. And we should be encouraging those who are playing "exceptions" to keep in mind that the VNPC world is still treating them like shit even if the PC world isn't, and behave accordingly.

One thing that is not okay is when somebody just decides to casually disregard the docs so that they can kank that sexy half-breed. Kanking the sexy half-breed is all right if appropriate, doc-respecting RP goes into it, but you shouldn't just wad up the docs and toss 'em in the fire because the word 'curvy' is in their sdesc. Your PC shouldn't be suddenly forgetting everything they've learned and believed about magick their whole life because some magicker was "nice." Respect the docs with everything you do, whether you're playing by the book or bending expectations.

Not everybody is going to be the same or internalize the culture in the same way, so it's fine to be flexible IMO. Just don't discard the docs, don't forget that your behavior is considered unconventional even if PCs aren't enforcing it, and probably don't make every single one of your characters an exception--the norm should be, you know, the norm. Do all these things and I think we can strike a balance between too lax and too stifling.

[Miradus]

I don't follow the docs much, but sort of pick some general hatred for each character (assuming they live long enough to talk to anyone).

For instance, the docs say "everyone hates half breeds", but a given character of mine might LIKE half breeds but despise dwarves. Or maybe he doesn't mind gicks so much but hates the dun cloaks so much he spits on the ground every time he sees one. Or he despises spice users and dealers. Or left handed redheads. Whatever. Just mix it up a little bit.

I see the docs as guidelines but I'll be damned if I want my every RP response dictated or scrutinized.

[bardlyone]

Hate is far too bland a spice to pepper 90% of Zalanthas with.

I'd fear magickers quicker than hate them. I fear snakes, but they're beautiful and interesting from a distance. I just don't want to get close to one.

I'd pity breeds before hating them. Because they're broken by definition and will never have acceptance (real acceptance) or emotional stability in most cases.

I distrust people from the other city-state before hating them, because they might be spies. Though I might hate aspects of their culture.

There are a lot of different negative ways to react. I think hate is overplayed, and most of the time, people put as much thought and depth into how 'hate' manifests as they do into how to play a 'villain', and it often comes off one dimensional and forced.