Armageddon General Discussion Board

There has been a fair bit of concern voiced lately that staff are not communicating with players, and that they refuse to solicit player input or take player impact into account.

I understand the concern.  I definitely understand that if a particular change impacted your Armageddon experience, or a cherished character/concept negatively, it could feel punitive or uncaring.  But I guess, from my perspective, this unidirectionality is not only somewhat expected, but sensible.  As I see it, it serves these purposes:

• It limits the amount of input staff have to sift through.  This is purely a pragmatic concern.  Looking at any of the hot change threads lately, one will see twenty different opinions about how a change should have been applied.  Staff probably have twenty more amongst themselves.  At some point, they need to filter out possible solutions so they can select one.  Removing the pbase from that equation does that in possibly the most effective way.
• Staff need to limit their exposure to echo chambers.  Threads in which only supporters or detractors of an idea air their opinions give rise to the vocal minority phenomenon that some have complained of directing change.  It distorts perspectives about what people really want.
• Staff need to remain DMs.  They have a desire to keep as much of the intrigue and ugly mechanics as possible out of site behind the dice screen until necessary or appropriate.  It helps us, the players, stay immersed in the story.
• Staff need room to be human.  That means failed experiments and making mistakes.  If they tell us everything they are doing when they start it, rather than when it's done and ready, they are going to have a much harder time sweeping things like this under the rug.  If you think that shouldn't be important, I would maybe guess that you don't know too many humans or leaders.
• Knowing what they know, staff have a perspective on the game that players (aside from legends) don't share.  They have more information about what necessitates changes, both existing impetuses, and future requirements.
• Finally, they are the sole proprietors of both the code base, and their own time.  They know what's possible, what's hard, what's easy, what's prone to cause errors or imbalances elsewhere in the game, etc.  Yes, there are some software people in the pbase, myself included.  But guessing what should be easy and knowing what is possible or prone to failure two different things.

Despite having said reasons to operate in ways that players have complained about, staff have done a number of things to bridge that divide:

• First, and I can't stress how huge this is: they have opened up membership on staff to applicants over and over again.  This isn't a matter of clubs or cronyism.  Anyone who wants to have ownership of the staff process and the decisions that get made is free to apply.
• They have frequently tried to take informally gathered player input to inform changes.
• They have when and where possible, attempted to formally solicit player input on certain issues.
• They have made concerted and repeated efforts, where not possible to incorporate player input, to work with players generally and individually to smooth over difficulties that arose from changes.
• They have assigned dedicated staff to every area, group, etc in the game.  If the transitional oversight was not sufficient to resolve conflicts due to change, clan/region staff have always been available and (in my experience) helpful.

And yet, despite reasonable motivation and notable attempts at deconfliction, players continue to rail against staff for changes they dislike.  I don't get it.  I mean, I understand the impulse.  I just don't see the justification, or the benefit.  Staff are all players, as they have said.  They aren't out to get us.  They have as many reasons as anyone else (or more!) to want to see the game rock.  Why denigrate their honest attempts to achieve that?  We get this game for free.  We get all their hard work for free.  I'm not even making an argument that we should be grateful for it.  That ship appears to have sailed.  But keep in mind that simply because something is free does not mean it is cheap.  And it is the way of humans to fail to appreciate things that they get for free.  I would really love to see more people fight that urge in themselves.  And there is a wage that staff hope for in return for their work, despite doing it for no money.  That wage is getting to experience your excitement, and getting to hear your appreciation.  Granted, neither of these things is compulsory.  You don't have to give them.  But rest assured, staff do need them.  Because if they don't get them, all that overflowing creative energy that made them want to be staff, that made them want to entertain you, will slowly dry up. They will burn out.  They will step down.  And all those things they were doing will falter or fall to the back burner as they turn their attention to covering each other's absences and fighting their own attrition.

And yeah, I get it, I probably sound like a fanboy, or an establismentarian.  But I guess I'm just asking, if not for the sake of being a positive influence, if not for the sake of the staff themselves, then maybe for your fellow players, please, please, play nice?  It doesn't thave to be all the time.  You don't have to say you love things you hate.  But maybe, just maybe, you could approach staff like friends who are doing you a favor instead of like a fascist regime who wants to regulate your ration of fun?



And, because the iron curtain was brought into the discussion, and because I happened to take one the other day, here's a picture of a piece of the Berlin Wall.

(http://i.imgur.com/6UOgZkj.jpg) (http://imgur.com/6UOgZkj)

(Perhaps not ironically, the inscription around the pool reads, "A House Divided Against Itself Cannot Stand".  Seems apropos here.)

There, I've said my piece.  (Albeit one I've probably said before, and one I'm likely to say again, because staff aren't terribly likely to say it for themselves, but it is what it is.)

I'm sitting here with James. I just don't get why you guys are so against everything that staff has ever done.

Yes, Sorcerer as a class was revamped. The game is probably better for it in some ways. Sure, you don't see that super-powerful monsterhouse slamming everybody into the dirt, but now most of your enemies "are" at least somewhat reachable. A fully powered Sorcerer was barely conceivable as legitimate competition for the playerbase, it was something for Templars and their retinue of soldiers to deal with.


With the banking thing, sure you get taxed. You lose a percentage of your money. Maybe now you have to ask your friends for help to pay for stuff. That's what friends are for, right?

As my goofy post in the other thread tried to say in a lighthearted way, I think the staff are doing a good job with the changes they are choosing to make to the game as a whole.  Some of the changes hurt a bit, but if you read all the discussions, you do get a sense of why they were done and it's hard to argue with the logic of them.  And frankly, with as much emotional investment in this game as people have, you're never going to please everyone.  

In my opinion, the staff just needs to focus a bit more on PR (or change management, if you want to get really technical) to write/revise communications, and anticipate player concerns or anxieties and address them in the communications up front.  

Look at the Tuluk closure.  That was a major change, the biggest change I've ever seen in Armageddon, and considering how controversial it was, it was amazing at how well it was taken by the player base.  I don't think that's a coincidence or luck, I think it's because all of the staff clearly put a lot of work into the communications of the announcement, with an FAQ, very well thought out posts, and plans to help transition affected players as smoothly as possible.

Honestly, it's like baking a great cake, and forgetting the frosting, if you don't wrap up these kinds of things nicely in an announcement.  If you read all 14 pages of the most recent banking thread, you'll see a lot of really great, well thought out reasons for how this was done, why, and what might be coming in the future.  If that was packaged up at the beginning with the announcement, I think we'd have seen significantly reduced whiners (myself included) and all the appreciative and excited posts would've shined through more than they did.

Sure, it's kinda lame to wordsmith an announcement, but that can be outsourced!  Find someone who likes doing that kind of thing, and get them to write it.  It's not like we're releasing things of this caliber so often that it'd be a massive time sink for them, whereas it might be a real burden on the person who just spent 50 hours working on a project and is eager to get it out the door and into player's hands.  In fact, you could probably recruit a player to do this for you, if you're willing to loop them in on the release ahead of time...or even a small group of players, beta-testers for the communications, so to speak.

Quote from: Saellyn on August 04, 2015, 09:18:13 PM
I'm sitting here with James. I just don't get why you guys are so against everything that staff has ever done.

Let's not be hyperbolic.  I don't think that sweeping statements about players OR staff will serve a discussion well.

I'll add one more thing to your list, JDM: often times soliciting player opinion would be a step that isn't always necessary because chances are someone on staff will come up with the same potential objections. The staffing team is what, 15-16 people sometimes? (I haven't been keeping close track of who's active or what's going on since I'm on a break right now but I know it's been that high in recent times.)

I can't envision that many scenarios where Staffer A will propose an idea and players could come up with more potential consequences than staffers B through N. Has it happened in the past? Undoubtedly. People miss stuff. And I'm sure not all staff contribute equally to all discussions about stuff. But I think most of the time those concerns would be raised by other staff.

Back when I was a builder for Arm2 years ago, there were whole pages of discussion about potential consequences of gameplay changes. Stuff that most people would consider relatively minor. And it wasn't that people were viciously arguing one way or the other, it was often just a discussion of "hey, players might bring up that X would affect Y and are we cool with that?"

I imagine a lot of threads would go like this:

Adhira: Hello! We are thinking of introducing X and would like some feedback.
Player 1: Have you thought of Y?
Adhira: Yes we discussed that.
Player 2: But what about Z?
Adhira: Yes we discussed that.
Player 3: IT WILL COMPLETELY BREAK ABC AND D.
Adhira: Yes we discussed that.
Player 4: This change is great!
Player 5: This change is terrible!

Which looks to me a lot like the threads that happen after changes have already been made.

I am all for more transparency and open communication between players and staff, as my years of GDB whining will attest, but this is an area where I feel like the current decision making process wouldn't be much improved by asking for player input beforehand.

I'm not a fan of every change that's been made, but I agree with James that the playerbase doesn't need to be consulted, and that the staff shouldn't feel obligated to consult us.

There are a lot of changes this game has gone through that I don't like. But my liking or not liking a change should have no bearing on what the staff chooses to do. And my liking or not liking a change has no bearing on any expectation I should have of being consulted. I'm not a staff member, they should not feel obligated to consult with me, or any other non-staff-member player, unless they're needing test subjects to play around with a code change. I -have- been consulted on that in the past, and was tickled pink (as in - very happy) that they did so.

But no, the membership at large doesn't "deserve" to be consulted about much, and it could end up being counter-productive, if instead of actually making necessary changes, they spent all their time listening to the debates back and forth, and the game comes to a standstill as a result.

I agree with Fathi, staff don't need to solicit player input on most things.  They're players themselves, after all.   But, I think sharing some of the depth of the discussion that went into a project when it's announced would go a long way in making people feel less opposed to change.  

Most people's natural reaction to change is "OMG BAD!" unless it's directly helping them, and even then, they might mistake something that's helping them for something that's hurting them and complain anyway.

For example, this whole banking thing seems like it was very well thought out behind the scenes, and frankly there was plenty of player input about it on other threads, but when the project was revealed all we saw was:

Quote from: ArmageddonMUD
Banking will now incur fees for withdrawals.

This fee is dependent on the size of the account.  Small enough withdrawals/accounts will instead be subject to a minimum transaction fee for withdrawals (as that would be greater).

The natural reaction to seeing this change is to start thinking about what negative and positive effects it will have on your own personal play.  A really thoughtful person might be able to step back and start considering other people's play too.  Sure enough, some people are going to view this change as negative.  They're going to start drawing conclusions based on very limited information, and before you know it, a largely positive change might be framed as a negative one and the GDB posting starts.  Nyr and other staff members did a good job explaining things on the thread that was spawned from this, but I can't help but think all of it could've been avoided to begin with by sharing some of the thinking that went into it up front, and talking about how it's part of greater changes that are coming down the line.

This really only needs to be done for potentially controversial subjects.  I don't think anyone is going to have a negative reaction to 90% of the new stuff being added to the game, or other minor updates.

Quote from: Lizzie on August 04, 2015, 10:25:59 PM
I'm not a fan of every change that's been made, but I agree with James that the playerbase doesn't need to be consulted, and that the staff shouldn't feel obligated to consult us.

Staff have a better view of the world, the players, the code, and the tendencies of some players than you'll ever have just playing the game from a pc perspective. I doubt big code changes like this are taken lightly or tossed in willy-nilly. If they make a code change and it's not having the desired effect, it'll be tweaked or changed, or removed entirely. I believe this anyway.

While I would enjoy seeing a staff thread discussing a change and polling potential ideas they're working on, I don't lose sleep over there not being one. If staff want input they can ask. I don't think they need to though and I don't think it hurts the game if they don't.

I doubt you're going to find many people willing to "challenge" this on this forum. The frustrations that players hold are (by rules) required to be kept secret from the non-staff population. Else they risk forums bans and force-storage of their character as punishment.

As well, expressing frustrations and disagreeing with decisions will prevent a player from securing leadership roles in rolecalls, as well as other negatives in further staff interaction.

On the other side of the equation, players have no readily-available method of rejection of a staffer's policies other than writing a character on the other side of the game world with the intention of avoiding falling into their circle of influence. Since this is not an option with banks -- there is only one bank, and any attempt by PCs would unquestionably be squashed by staff's animation of a "realistic world response" -- the vocal disagreement is near the height of what could be expected.

Not to mention, there has hardly been any decision I can see from my time here that has been decidedly changed by player input. It seems to me that the staff sells the idea so well to themselves on the IDB, they aren't going to take GDB detractors seriously. Indeed, it's gotten so tangible that this thread has been made.

Is there anything the playerbase could do right now to rescind this bank-tax script? Absolutely not. That's the reason why there is a divide.

The concept that "staff are players too" is a joke, to me, for reasons I can't type here due to the forum's rules.

If it was a rule to keep frustrations secret from the non-staff population, we'd have to delete a whole lot of threads, ban a large amount of regular posters and force-store a bunch of PCs because that would mean we haven't quite scoured the GDB well enough and gotten rid of all that inconvenient dissent. We aren't looking to be blamed or insulted, but we aren't looking for sycophancy. Polite behavior, constructive criticism, and a willingness to share opinions as well as listen to a counter-argument are generally appreciated on this, or almost any, forum.

Also, there are no policies of a single staffer. Multiple staffers are often involved in major decisions, and there was plenty of discussion staff-side over this idea and many others that have been or are soon to be implemented. Not everyone specifically agreed with this idea, and some proposed alternate things to try, which may even make it into the game someday. Of course, there is a single set of staff policies that apply to all staff, regarding how staffing should be done.

While I can personally appreciate the desire for players to make their impact on the world, the nature of a change this broad is that it will not be practical for any single PC or group of PCs to affect. The fact that a few players benefit from the broken economy, while others don't, can make it hard to solicit ideas from the playerbase (although this particular idea has come up on the GDB before, as well as other proposals to change the banking structure). Lastly, the fact that the banking structure was largely an OOC convenience for easily keeping your money safe and for "teleporting" your money to other banks safely creates a duty for staff to make sure it operates with some IC consequence, like other things in the game do.

I can understand the temptation to have a knee-jerk reaction when something you're used to changes, but all we have ever asked for is your patience, support, and suggestions, and all of that gets used staff-side when discussions for changes take place.

So much I want to say here, but I will say thank you first.  Secondly, I play quite often, I try to play daily if I can, but it often doesn't work out that way.

Read the rules... you're all welcome to complain, as long as it is by the rules.  Most of those rules are common sense as to why there are written that way.  I rarely read the GDB to be honest, with exception of the Non-Arm Discussion stuff.

I don't know. Staff/Player communication seems better these days, than it was 4, 8 or 12 years ago.

It's a bit more professional, I guess. But I wouldn't call it a divide. In many ways, staff is a lot nicer than they've been in the past. It might be, ten years ago, they were more likely to be buddy-buddy, more likely to be accused of favoritism or holding a grudge, or else tell you to get fucked/randomly screw with you.

But just from personal experience, tonally, staff seems more polite and considerate across the board, as a broad, generalized statement. It doesn't apply to everyone at every time, but just as a very vague measure, like the sea level.

In the old days, they might have been more casual, more willing to go out on a limb, but I like things more standardized.

I came back because I thought the staffing culture was more pleasant to be around/more open to big changes (closing Tuluk), so I suppose, take that as you will.

Interestingly enough, I've never censored myself on this forum and never once felt as if I was punished for it, even when staff vehemently disagreed with my viewpoint. I think some people self-censor themselves too much, and in their mind, it builds up and up as if they're being muzzled. If you feel strongly about something, and it has to do with the game, then just speak up. Some staff are likely to agree. Some are likely to disagree. At least it starts a conversation.

True, there is no rule against expressing that a frustration is present. However, the situation involved and its intricacies are, by the nature of the game, barred from public discussion. This goes without saying that it transcends the banking issue.

There is a perceived lack of accountability of the staff to the playerbase, where a player may feel that their argument was dishonorably picked apart and subverted by staff members on the other side of the fence; that the actual events were not expressed honestly; that the decision made was built on mistruths due to the affected members framing the scenario to others of the group. Of course, the player involved in the argument is incapable of partaking in this dialogue, if they feel courageous enough to submit the dialogue in the first place.

I was recently forum banned by a particular staffer (despite claims that moderation of the GDB had been passed onto the helpers) where I jokingly used a snippet of his dialogue in a request I had submitted as a farcical response to a post. This was "baiting staff", and I was told to cool off. It was a seven day ban, and I was told I could submit an appeal, which I did. On day five of the ban, I followed up with a frustrated comment on the ban appeal due to the fact that the ban was almost expired at that point, compounded by the fact that I needed access to my clan forum due to an upcoming RPT. The response I received shortly after was from the same staff member who banned me, stating along the lines that due to my tone, this was denied.

No harm done, right? Just wait the next two days out?

15 minutes afterwards, I received a message from my storyteller stating I had a choice between storage, and an arbitrary destruction of my character's IC accomplishments over real-life months directly due to my forum ban appeal that was just denied.

Will I get forum banned again for baiting by recounting this incident of perceived injustice to my efforts in this game from the side of staff? I'd say it's likely, from my past experiences pointing to it. Am I one of the only people playing this game willing to post this on the GDB with that in mind? Of course. Am I the only one harboring a frustration such as this? Hardly.

Recently, the USA staffers got together for some beach research, which, in my opinion, isn't necessarily bad given Armageddon's history of personal meetings. However, any psychologically-inclined person will admit that there is a bias on the judgement of someone else's actions when they are a friend vs. a simple co-worker (and I'm giving the Arm staff some credit here with the term co-worker based on their guidelines). With all that in mind, am I wrong in assuming that personal biases apply to staff in favor of an actual friend, opposed to a complaint from a random stranger on the internet? Am I wrong in assuming that staff members will favor the depiction of events from the recounting of their friend (who was actually there, mind) vs. the events from a random stranger on the internet who was there, when the two parties' descriptions don't match up? It's basic human chemistry, by all means.

That is why there is a divide between players and staff. The staff are only allowing themselves to be completely truthful to each other, not players; subverting that trust of truthfulness, any biases or mistruths are more willingly accepted. Without the player involved given more than a single complaint to voice their grievances (and keep in mind, submitting clarification complaints or follow-up deconstructions of a response has been compared to "Being told No by daddy, and then running crying to momma" by a staff member on the GDB, and more-over heavily discouraged), there is no earnest capacity by the wronged player to actually voice their frustration.

How would you feel, if someone in authority wronged you, and you were only able to express your issue by filling out one submission form and giving it to the same institution employing the person who wronged you? Furthermore, that form would be taken to the accused party where they have full access to the complaint, a friendly relationship with the arbitrator of the complaint, and a voice which outweighs you in credibility and value? Continuing on, any disagreement with the resolution of your submitted form (whether by suspicion of misunderstanding by the authority, or the voiced belief is intentionally mis-framing the situation to avoid punishment) is shamed as childish, uncalled for, and a waste of time.

There are guidelines in the United States against the system I've outlined -- the outline of my experience with Staff Complaints during my time with this game. The laws are put in-place to ensure accountability, and prevent corruption; two things proven by history to be lacking in systems where this is not kept in check.

I have been told before that, although this may be my reality, it is not reality. Well, despite how much I hate to say it, this is my reality in my experience with a select few members of staff.

What can I do, except stifle these complaints and continue, or leave the game altogether? I will never be able to appeal to the playerbase for accountability, because the authority ensures you that they are all accountable to one another; as an aside, and needless to mention, I'll be censored and banned if I do try. How many players over the course of over a decade have been driven away, or had their experience with this game tainted by this perception? Am I the only one? Again, doubtful; but those who have decided to keep playing have learned it's easier to just choke back the fire in their stomachs. And those who have left, can no longer speak for themselves here.

This is the problem I would recommend the playerbase addresses, although Nenyuk bank taxes might be viewed as a more serious and pressing issue than the one I've described. The void between players and staff is visibly negligible and rarely seen -- even denied by some, declared improved by others  -- because there is no tangible benefit for the player if he wishes to engage it. Am I making a mistake by posting this, and having an open Karma Check request at the same time? Well.... You tell me.

TL;DR: To keep the body in good health is a duty, otherwise we shall not be able to keep our mind strong and clear. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokugawa_Iemitsu#Shogun_.281632-1651.29)

QuoteAsanadas said:

A bunch of crap.

First off, I would like to start by saying that I am one of the few players who has probably pissed and every single staff Salad possible. I have committed grievous sins and said foul things. I have broken plotlines, I have acted suddenly and with anger to the detriment of the game, and I have been banned under GDP by both Nyr and the Nessalin.

So I think I can count myself as somewhat  of an authority on how staff act and react to things.

The last thing the staff like to do with their days is look for reasons to ban you or store you. They have a helluva lot more to do, and the time that they take to do a ban maybe neglegible but it also distract them from whatever it is that they actually want to be working on or thinking about. Finding a new reason to come down like a hammer on a player fits into their day in about the same way that live blender fits into your anus, its just something that they prefer to avoid.

Staff, by and large, have very thick skins. I have seen the amount of abuse they can take without provoking a reaction... I've seen it first hand because I can be kind of an abusive asshole at times when I feel I have been treated unjustly.

Whatever this joke/quote thing was you did must have had some pretty serious impact, and likely hit them personally instead of just a player to staff comment meant in humor.   I have no doubt believing that due to the way I've seen you treat other people on these very boards. truth be told you are one of three people whose posts I take joy in just scrolling past... And yet here I am responding to this in hopes that you will try to say the things you say in to a mirror.

There  is also this particular quote of  yours:

Again, doubtful; but those who have decided to keep playing have learned it's easier to just choke back the fire in their stomachs. And those who have left, can no longer speak for themselves here.

Artfully worded.  Very martyrtastic in conjunction some of your other phrases.

I know how to act quiet and when to burn logic and come out with the nasty bits all clean and presentable. 

Presentation.

Sort of a derail, but my summarized experience with staff:
I've gone up the karma tree, had it stripped, climbed again, had it stripped. I've been banned more than once and have hardly rolled over and done as I was told in more than a few occasions. Me and Malifaxis probably went down some similar roads in our long time with Armageddon as I've seen the dude get pretty emotional. I've been forgiven, I've always been forgiven, staff have always worked with me except in those times when I was pounding away at my keyboard in frustration expecting them to award me for bitching. After my track record, I was still given a sponsored roll with game-breaking code advantages... if any staff member I've ever offended held a grudge for one of my angry and emotional e-mails they'd have squashed that out with a quickness.

I posted that nyr was a dick on the boards, albeit jokingly, but I did it. I was a prick and got prick responses for being a prick. At the time I was furious, looking back, I deserved the ban he gave me.

Nyr's still one of the top dog's in immortal-land and nyr delivered me back my karma after a pretty big error on my part conflicting with the game world, I made a decision in the heat of the moment for a coded gain that didn't fit with the gameworld whatsoever. My bad judgement and emotional response in defense (which was flimsy as hell) to my judgement cost me the karma I'd acquired over years of playing, the same immortal that called me out on the piss-poor play granted me my karma back later on.

Hell.. Nyr even made me a fucking Helper.  :-\

They're not out to get you...

Quote from: Malifaxis on August 05, 2015, 02:40:28 AMWhatever this joke/quote thing was you did must have had some pretty serious impact, and likely hit them personally instead of just a player to staff comment meant in humor.

(http://i.imgur.com/kL2zmAo.png)

This post (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49583.msg892367.html#msg892367) and this post. (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49583.msg892469.html#msg892469) So serious an impact, they remain unedited and undeleted.

I would express why I chose those words in my posts, but it would be against the rules of this forum, and you would not care because you do not hold value in anything else I've expressed.

There is no Player and Staff divide beyond the illusion of one, fabricated by the history of our experiences together. We are on the Player's side, because we are also Players. We are on the Staff's side, because we are also Staff. We dance the line between both worlds, because we choose to make the game a better place to play in, and a better place to Staff over. We actively encourage each other not to dwell on GDB drama. We pick up the slack when other Staffers have duties that call to them IRL -- Family, friends, merry-making, kids, wives, husbands, and other hobbies. We achieve great goals that we set for ourselves -- And we admit when we make mistakes. After all, we're only human.

Humans love continuity. We desire to see a connection between the past, the present, and the future. We like to remember how things were, because it gives us context for who we are. I say this, because when you look at the continuity of ArmageddonMUD, you can't be anything but incredibly impressed at how far we have come. And it's easy to forget how far we have come, because we take it for granted. Just like when you are sick, all you can think about is how sick you are, how horrible you feel, how 'normal' feels like a quality you never even had...And when you get better, you can't even remember what sick felt like.

Every year that ArmageddonMUD still exists is a year it has bettered itself -- The continuity between the past and the present shows a rich tapestry of change. Perceived mistakes are addressed, sometimes poorly, and then adjusted again, and again. Documentation for clans that didn't exist is written and implemented, and then re-written when errors or inconsistencies are noticed. Code is revamped, changed, and revamped again, constantly improving on the old, and creating where there was lack.

Communication between Staff and Players has never, in the existence of the game, been as good as it is now. Checks and balances are in place to leave a paper trail of communication between Staff, and Players. Protocol has been created, and is followed, to remain as professional as possible on a free to play RPI. Gone are the days of emails to the MUD account with possibly no response, or a response months later. Context is provided through this paper trail, so that future generations of Staff can read back and through old logs, PC relationships and histories, and so forth.

I think communication is key to any successful relationship. And our communication has never been better than it is now. Following the continuity bit, we can only aspire to achieve greater goals, to engage the player base, to make a fun game that people want to play, and to provide an experience that is unlike any other experience on the Net.

Speaking as a Storyteller, I can only say that my goal is to provide intelligent suggestions to the rest of Staff on how to make the game better, and offer my opinions on their own ideas and concepts, while attempting to weave entertaining stories for the players of ArmageddonMUD, and finishing with the icing of enhancing your own trials and tribulations. I'll reiterate that there is no Player or Staff Divide beyond what illusion of one is perceived by certain Players who feel, in their tale of continuity, that they were dealt a bad hand.

I also had 'bad account notes' with Staff in my dealings with them. I had chips on my shoulder about Nessalin being a douche to me in how we interacted with one another. I felt Staff was, at one point, out to get me. I refused to speak with Nyr at one point, due to a back and forth on a few requests I had open, and then re-opened to continue arguing, and then opened again to keep re-arguing. I asked Staff to not make notes on my account that were 'feedback' oriented unless I asked for it. Despite being a prima donna and basically being a little shit, I joined Staff, and here I am today. So I suppose I am saying, even the misfits and highly opinionated can and will be on Staff. People with opinions and passion tend to care about the game they pour their time into.

We are all on the same side of the fence, and there is no Iron Curtain. Believing there are two sides of the fence, or there is an Iron Curtain, is entirely up to you.

(http://english.gov.taipei/public/MMO/TCGENG/Confucian_1.jpg)

This is a Confucius thread now.

Maybe I'm reading a different forum from you guys, but I don't actually see that much railing against staff in the bank thread. I see a lot of pretty reasonably-phrased concerns, several requests for more details, very little arguing against the overall idea, a few knee-jerk reactions against it, and more than a few, "Wow, are you guys seriously whining about this? Just accept it already/everyone else clearly voted for it!" comments.

I really hope this thread isn't written with the intent to dissuade people from expressing disagreement or concerns with changes to the game. *Especially* not if the reasoning is, "Well, someone else probably already thought of your objections," or, "Staff shouldn't need to care about player input." Not asking for player input ahead of time is one thing; dissuading players from speaking about it at all afterwards is something else completely.

I think it's completely reasonable to ask staff for complete or relatively-complete documentation on new changes going in, which is what I read as the main concern. I also think the requests for such were voiced rather politely and with good intentions.

I sure didn't see any flame bait until this thread, which has, apparently, /really/ brought out the railing against staff. I understand the urge to defend and support Arm's staff, but insulting your fellow players by telling them they cannot possibly add anything else worthwhile to the discussion is not the way to do it.

Quote from: Eurynomos on August 05, 2015, 04:08:26 AM
And we admit when we make mistakes. After all, we're only human. . . . . . . . We are all on the same side of the fence, and there is no Iron Curtain. Believing there are two sides of the fence, or there is an Iron Curtain, is entirely up to you.

I am sorry, but the staff members I have interacted with have been unable to express apology or admission of mistakes. Instead, due to this specific situation, I was: fed multiple conflicting excuses and reasons for why the event happened; threatened with my character due to my dissatisfaction with the result (and eventual punitive measures at a later date, due to the two posts above along with compounding frustration on my part); misled and blamed for the events happening myself; among other things, told it was "not my place" to express my complaint against the staff in question.

I don't mean to accuse all staff members of being incompetent. However, due to my interaction with few, I cast my experience on the many. A house can be judged by its tenants.

It's only natural that you would trust your superior's version of events compared to mine, and have no issue when he is the one who closes his own complaint without addressing the material within. You are busy with your own clan maintenance, and it's not your calling to reach out and try to understand my issue, especially when I've clinged onto it for so long. I should just get over it, right? I mean, I wasn't even one of the three people "affected" by it.

As of today, no staff member has reached out to me in an attempt to discover what my complaint is/was about (furthermore, no attempt was made to have a sincere dialogue with me -- in an environment I felt comfortable -- regarding my complaint); they were content to accept the version of the staff member that led it -- this version, which I expressed was a lie and not an honest account of events, and consequentially was pulled aside and admonished for breaking "trust" along with threats against my character should I try to "sow dissent" again.

In my experience, it is some form of sedition to request accountability alongside a call that staffers admit their mistake and move to correct it. If you continue to disagree with the dishonest excuses given to you, you will be reprimanded. I was punished for clinging to my standards (and experience, as a former role-play medium head administrator, myself) in hope that I could somehow convince these few staff members to set things right for these three players. However, the blame lies solely on us... despite the forced action mandated by these few staff members' actions, combined with the flawed implementation of code that flied in the face of what these few were attempting to do.

Eurynomos, apologies if I am misinterpreting your statement,
If "the history of our experiences together" "fabricate" "[an illusion of a] Player and Staff divide"... does that not serve as evidence there is one? What is being fabricated, and what is real? In the theme of our enlightened dialogue trope so far: can there be a waterfall, without water? I trust by your response you are sincere and willing to sacrifice for the principle of your players' enjoyment; can the same be said of all that are on the staff team? In my experience, no.

You should probably show some proof of stuff like that, and put in a formal staff complaint if you're being treated like this.

I already have submitted repeated formal staff complaints. I would show proof, but it is against the rules of this forum to discuss events that happened less than a year ago today. In this particular case, there's an argument that the events are still relevant and pressing, and to discuss them would be breaking that rule.

Asanadas,

Since you're airing this all out publicly, let me give you a non-staff opinion of the situation that has you still so upset.  I think my non-staff opinion is quite informed, and since I was pretty upset about the exact same issue as you, I think I'm more likely to be sympathetic to your concerns than basically any other player.

The short of it, for those who don't know, is that there was an RPT (a totally bad ass one, I might add) where crim-code triggered and killed three PC's in the space of about 10 seconds.  It was caused by multiple OOC mistakes,  (my own mistake probably being the worst of the bunch)  based on faulty assumptions of how the code worked, and how the particular situation was setup.  It sucked.  No one was happy, staff least of all judging by clan GDB posts and my own request tool exchanges on the subject.  Resurrection requests were made, and because resurrection policies are very black and white, the requests were denied.  Now, I personally think the resurrection policies should have a little bit more wiggle room to work with, but I can understand that they've been forged over decades and things like that can become institutions.

You seem to be an egalitarian type, suppose they made an exception and went ahead with the resurrections, how fair would that be for the countless other similar situations that were denied?   Not fair at all.  Either they'd have to change the policy or stick to it.  They stuck with it.  I was bummed, I whined about it too.   I bet they received numerous similar complaints about it.  They were also in the middle of running perhaps the most aggressive series of RPT's I've seen in Armageddon, some of which were practically HRPT sized.  I decided to just let it go.  You didn't.  You kept going on and on about it during practically every forum post you made, regardless of the topic, always hinting at some massive injustice going on beneath everyone's noses.  It probably started to irritate some people, and certainly wasn't the OOC behavior I'd personally associate with someone in a leadership position.  I thought you were out of line...and I even agreed with what you were being out of line about! 

A 7-day GDB forum ban sounds like a warning rattle, and from where I'm sitting it seems like you kept pushing and got bit.  And even after getting bit, you had an opportunity to cool off and keep your character and stay in the clan (which screams opportunity for redemption to me), but you got pissed off and now you're still angry about it 3 months later. 

You hung on too tight, you lost your edge. 

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/f7/81/e9/f781e98c7b2bf9bdfcff9c6904755559.jpg)

If you want my advice (which you probably dont...but tough, you've already read this far) you should go out, have some beers, sing karaoke, play some volleyball,  and come back to playing when you've gotten over this incident (which you will...you obviously really love this game, and it'll still be here once you're over this).


(http://www.amoeba.com/admin/uploads/blog/Kelly/goose-and-maverick.jpg)

(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/02/27/262391B400000578-2971612-image-a-21_1425021040537.jpg)

Wizturbo, you've really won me over with your Top Gun images.  I recommend we broach this player's divide, and engage a high-five.

No, I really didn't read this thread.  How do you find the time?

Holy crap, endless and off topic couched bitching nobody can respond to or answer for. Take it to its own thread or somewhere else. Honestly, if your communications to staff read anything like your posts, no wonder nobody can be bothered with your shit, regardless of what's at fault.

(https://33.media.tumblr.com/6c690de09151ebfce46cf37b59d6cd7e/tumblr_nfiumcpwjW1tq1toro1_400.gif)

(https://33.media.tumblr.com/53599acdeb9ac180cf6f6a88535b590d/tumblr_mwjktqe7Tz1svecmko1_400.gif)

(http://i.imgur.com/rj59FUv.gif)

(http://media.giphy.com/media/edho4s1lWEawo/giphy.gif)

I would suggest focusing on the topic at hand rather than a very specific situation.

I have no doubt this thread started off with good intentions, but I don't think the direction it's heading is productive.  This is just a friendly, preemptive reminder, not directed at any specific individual, to behave politely and follow the rules.  Thank you!

I don't really see how his post is off topic, it's really driving hard right to the heart of the issue that JdM was getting at. How can you talk about the player/staff divide if you can't talk about the events that led us to believe we're divided?

He was told due to his interactions with staff, complaining to them how things were handled on the behalf of other players, that he would have his character stored or reduced to the lowest rank, thereby removing him from the leadership position. That's the crux of the issue for me, one that Wizturbo's well reasoned post falls short of helping to explain. (really great post though, Wiz)

The events seem wholly unrelated to me no matter how much "well we obviously can't get along right now, so you shouldn't be playing in a leadership position where need to communicate." you throw at it. That just isn't a reasonable staff response in my mind. They took an OOC debate and brought it to the depths of the IC world. That's a fairly sacred line to cross for me. I love roleplay, so when OOC things greatly effect what happens to my character, I get pissed off too. If the staff are the sole reason behind that breach of IC/OOC, what is there to do but be upset with them?

Unless he was opening up requests for the sole intention of harassing the staff and belittling their decisions, such a nuclear option should really never have to be used on a player. I really don't get the feeling that Asanadas was coming from such a petty position when the whole reason he was there was for the sake of fellow players, and not even himself. By destroying his character like that they're basically saying they don't care what you've contributed to the game, or what you've worked to accomplish, it doesn't matter because you decided to get into an argument with staff and stick with it, your mistake.

I think even the perception of this issue existing at all is a problem unto its own, but as long as every party involved insists everything wrong with everything else is on the other guys, threads like these is what we'll get.

We don't discuss account-specific issues on the GDB, so knocking on that door is not likely to get a response.

Quote from: aeglaeca on August 05, 2015, 04:45:20 AM
a bunch of stuff

This.  Not all disagreement is railing.  I feel that a lot of times in text, honest confusion or misunderstanding is taken in an entirely negative way. 

I've been on the rest of the internet.  It's a dark and scary place.  We have a very good community here.  Our only problem is that we're all obsessed with an online text-based roleplaying game and we all have different ideas of what would make it better.

Some people do have legitimate grievances with how staff handled a particular situation.  I've been frustrated by responses before and I'm sure everyone has.  I'm sure staff has been frustrated with me before right back.  But the thing is, staff can't resolve your grievance if you don't dialogue about it.  And you can't have an honest dialogue if you're approaching the situation with your hair standing on end, your arms crossed defensively, and a firm conviction that you are absolutely right and anyone else is absolutely wrong and they are all out to get you.

In other words ...

Quote from: Eurynomos on August 05, 2015, 04:08:26 AM
I think communication is key to any successful relationship. And our communication has never been better than it is now.

I've found this to be very true.

If you have an issue with staff, you take it up with staff.  This can be in the form of a staff complaint.

If you take issue with the resolution of your staff complaint, you can (of course, though it is a bit odd) put in more staff complaints.  Maybe a lot more staff complaints.  

(I don't know why any player should do more than two.  Honestly, we have discussed changing the coding around staff complaint responses because sometimes players will put in a second complaint because they did not like the response from one Producer...a response obtained in consensus with the other Producers.  It is often an absolute waste of time on both sides.  If you have pertinent information to add to a complaint, that's perfectly fine--but if you don't like the response because you want another Producer to respond, that's a bit much.)

If you take issue with the resolution of staff complaint(s) and either a) don't want to put in more or b) don't think staff are going to take your issues seriously, you are left with a very small subset of options.  They are as follows:

1)  Personal examination.  Perhaps communication and related issues are a two-way street. Perhaps your lane is a 10-car pileup; meanwhile you are complaining about the staff member in the other lane that a busted headlight...and it's daytime.  Maybe you are in the wrong.  Maybe you are not a joy with whom to communicate.  Maybe your communication style and content is so grating that it invites annoyance or is construed as trolling/flaming.  Take the time to be mad, sure, but also take the time to examine yourself.

2)  If after attempting personal growth, you still find that you are right, and staff is wrong, you are left with the conundrum:  is this staff made up of several people that are themselves players...all out to get me?  Could they all possibly have a grudge against me, through no fault of my own?  Some may well think this is the case, but they keep this opinion to themselves and it only slips out every now and then.  However, some few go farther than that and think it's a good idea to bring their case to other players because obviously, staff are biased.  That's where we get to #3.

3)  If after bringing up your issues with staff, then attempting personal growth/examination and also attempting to reconcile your version of events with the biases of reality...you still can't keep from trying to take your issue farther...then maybe it's time to throw in the towel and find another game to play.  There's only one way out at that point.  It does not end with you on a soapbox preaching about the evils of staff that wronged you, particularly when they won't discuss account-specific issues publicly.  (We used to do that when players would go off the deep end and start railing against staff injustices/conspiracy theories/etc.  We don't anymore per the Pig Wrestling Policy^TM.  Now we will just warn players and then ban them once they've gotten that far and refuse to see reason.)

Quote from: aeglaeca on August 05, 2015, 04:45:20 AM
Maybe I'm reading a different forum from you guys, but I don't actually see that much railing against staff in the bank thread. I see a lot of pretty reasonably-phrased concerns, several requests for more details, very little arguing against the overall idea, a few knee-jerk reactions against it, and more than a few, "Wow, are you guys seriously whining about this? Just accept it already/everyone else clearly voted for it!" comments.

I really hope this thread isn't written with the intent to dissuade people from expressing disagreement or concerns with changes to the game. *Especially* not if the reasoning is, "Well, someone else probably already thought of your objections," or, "Staff shouldn't need to care about player input." Not asking for player input ahead of time is one thing; dissuading players from speaking about it at all afterwards is something else completely.

I think it's completely reasonable to ask staff for complete or relatively-complete documentation on new changes going in, which is what I read as the main concern. I also think the requests for such were voiced rather politely and with good intentions.

I sure didn't see any flame bait until this thread, which has, apparently, /really/ brought out the railing against staff. I understand the urge to defend and support Arm's staff, but insulting your fellow players by telling them they cannot possibly add anything else worthwhile to the discussion is not the way to do it.

Because I agree, and feel like it got lost in the back-and-forth. Let's stay on topic if we're going to have this discussion.

I have never seen a community of people who want so badly to be in control of everything that they can't hardly stand it.

When you go to play League of Legends, or World of Warcraft, or Call of Duty, what sort of people do you mostly end up playing with? Mostly it's 14 - 21 year olds who are there just to grief inbetween their shifts at where ever it is they work when they aren't getting stoned in Mom and Dad's basement.

What's our community mostly comprised of? 25+ professionals who are fairly accustom in most regards to being the smartest most capable people on any project the majority of us will ever be a part of.

Take an entire community of those people, and tell them they have to just accept "on faith" whatever a group of anonymous internet nerds (said lovingly) above them on the epeen ladder decides for them with little to no explanation....and this is what you get.

Of course we want to know -why-. We want to know -how-. And you bet your ass, we all have grand solutions to everything that would fix everything if you would just fucking listen to us. It could be no other way. We are for the most part a community that survives in our real lives BY FIXING AND LEADING in some regard.

Nobody can do it better than us. Nobody will ever be able to do it as efficiently as we could...if only you would take our advice, because that's what we do.

That's our community in a nutshell. Of course it is going to cause "problems". Some people will get so "fed up" with being put "behind the curtain" and not being listened to that they will flat out get mad about it.

I think that's just a byproduct of our community and the types of people it takes to run a game like this and make a game like this run. Everyone here has tried some other MUD at some point. Everyone here has got a dang good laugh at the expense of the poor quality of roleplay in those other MUDs.

The reason our quality of roleplay is so high here and we can create the sort of in-game experience you can't get anywhere else is because of the type of players we have. We are achievers. We excel at every single thing we do. Even this game.

When you have an entire community of people, including the staff, who believes their way is the right way, because their way is always the right way...you end up with friction.

I think that friction is glorious. It's glorious because we have the types of players in our community where that friction is a possibility. If we didn't have those types of players, and those types of staffers, we would be the same subpar RP experience you can get in any other shitty game where people are spam killing snarks in the middle of city street and saying "rofl" in character like a bunch of herpderps.

Welcome to our glorious melting pot of "know-it-all's", where we all know it all, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

Numbers 14:2English Standard Version (ESV)
"And all the people of Israel grumbled against Moses and Aaron. The whole congregation said to them, "Would that we had died in the land of Egypt! Or would that we had died in this wilderness!"

Staff do a remarkable job of reaching out to players, truly. The tools we have to file request, and the fact that they have imposed timelines on themselves which they hold themselves accountable is one of the testaments to this fact. Add to that their availability on these forums, their commitment to announcing changes to the game, and their asking for feedback from players routinely further proves it.

And they do it as volunteers!

I manage around 30 people at work, and I really strive to follow up with every single one of their issues, and it's -tough-. Very few are grateful, and many choose to believe that your intentions or priorities are misdirected. The bitching and complaining is exhausting, and it's easy for the people doing the bitching and complaining, and very hard for the person trying to steer attitudes in a new direction.

Leadership is hard, and winning the confidence of your 'followers' is the most challenging and draining part.

So, I empathize with staff, and moreover I respect their time and commitment. This really is their game, but they are gracious enough to say it is our game.

We're playing an extremely high quality, extremely well run game. If you feel alienated or not listened to, there is a very good chance that you're not living up to your end of the bargain.

Take accountability for the relationships in your life. If you play armageddon, your relationship with staff is one of these relationships.

I used to get up in arms about my interactions with staff (ok with Nyr, let's keep it real) some years ago. Nowadays I feel kind of embarrassed for being that emotional over a text based internet game.  :-\

A couple years grinding up your RL skill to master goes a long way to mellow you out and put you in perspective about what the volunteer game masters of your local free to play RPG may or may not be getting up to ... and how much you ought to care.

I took a brief foray to another MUD while I was waiting for my Armageddon app to be approved. It'd received some positive reviews, and one of my friends seemed really gung-ho about it, so I thought I'd give it a shot. The character creation process in this particular MUD is extremely time-consuming, so this was about my third time logging in, making sure everything was in order, continuing to read through the docs, etc. There happens to be a global OOC chat channel on the game, which is the sort of thing I'd normally turn off, but I left it on because I was new to the game and wanted to feel out the entire experience, positives and negatives included. The moment I logged in this third time, the head imm was in the middle of calling out certain players who had been in high leadership positions in the past. Now, he didn't use names, but it was obvious to everyone who he was talking about, since he referred to them by their positions and when they had held them. He loudly declared that one of these characters in particular had "f***ed the theme in the a**" (asterisks and all), another, which had supernatural powers, did nothing but watch people MUDsex, and another had demanded unreasonable skill bumps. He also said that the playerbase as a whole didn't give a damn about the theme and just wanted to be a bunch of special snowflakes. This is just what I remember off-hand, mind you. There was more public shaming than even that.

I called him out on the OOC channel, saying that publicly calling out players isn't the way to make a new player who is currently wading through the docs comfortable about being accepted. He messaged me privately, and we had a conversation. I won't get into the nitty-gritty, because it was private and all, but basically, he attempted to explain why he acts the way he does, and requested that I stay despite his behavior.

You know what? I told him that he can run the game however he likes, because it's his game, and if this extremely unprofessional style of management works for him, good for him. I hate it, it makes me uncomfortable, and I find it extremely unreasonable, but he can rail about his players all day if he likes. He's the boss, and he doesn't answer to me. And I can go elsewhere, complain, or tolerate it as I please. And I chose to go elsewhere. I wish him good luck with his game, and hope his future leader PCs do not f*** his theme in the a** so vigorously.

Having that experience on that other MUD has really put any problems I may have with Arm's staff in perspective. Sure, they may be a little bit too corporate for my tastes, sometimes, but I've seen what can happen when there are no rules, and the imms can just run their mouths about whatever they want, and it's not pretty. I don't like being told to "file a request" about every little thing that I allude to on the GDB, but it's sure better than staff airing their grievances with your RP in public. Some of their policies are outdated, but they have policies instead of just running on some guy's whims. Yes, I believe that phrasing things in ways that would be easier on the playerbase would benefit everyone.

I feel for you, Asanadas, I really do. There's so much hurt in everything you post. I don't like what happened to you, at all, and I have a lot of respect for you. You're obviously a fighter, and in a lot of ways, I wish I were a fighter. I personally think we need more leaders like you, not fewer. I don't know the whole story, but I understand why you are bitter. I'd be red in the face, too. I can't say that I agree or disagree with what staff did, because I don't have the entire picture, but Asan, if you're right that a lot of people are "choking back the fire" in order to play here, then so be it. Just like people on that other game have decided to tolerate the head imm complaining about and calling out specific leadership PCs and bitching about the playerbase in general, people have found a way to play here. Yes, in the US there are checks and balances. It would be great if there were more "checks and balances" here, but really, they can run things however they like, and all we can do is suggest things, or complain, or walk away. There's no real point in acting like it's some sort of righteous mission, because ultimately, it's their prerogative to run things as they please, for better or for worse. All we can say is...this is pleasing the playerbase, this is upsetting the playerbase, or this is driving people away.

There are people who are genuinely upset with perceived injustice from staff. Maybe it is real, and maybe it isn't. I have been treated very well by staff, but then again, I never debate them. The most disgruntled players will never be won back over, but maybe an improvement in tone is all that is really needed to soothe the rest.

I've been treated very well by staff, and I do debate them.  I'm not going to bite my tongue when something is bothering me, because how else are they going to know.

But I also try to treat staff like I want to be treated.  I 
think that goes a long way toward effective communication.

The thing with tone is, in a text-based environment, a lot of the tone is just what you yourself read in there.  The most informative, polite statement can be read as annoyed and snappish.

That's why I'll say things like, "I feel like you're yelling at me." Or "I feel like you're shooting me down, and that doesn't make sense to me because..."  They might not be, but that's how I feel.   Most of the time the response I get is "we totally didn't mean it that way."  And I'll take it at face value because I don't know what Amos meant.  I only know how I interpreted it, and sometimes I'm wrong.

Quote from: Desertman on August 05, 2015, 10:28:17 AM
I have never seen a community of people who want so badly to be in control of everything that they can't hardly stand it.

When you go to play League of Legends, or World of Warcraft, or Call of Duty, what sort of people do you mostly end up playing with? Mostly it's 14 - 21 year olds who are there just to grief inbetween their shifts at where ever it is they work when they aren't getting stoned in Mom and Dad's basement.

What's our community mostly comprised of? 25+ professionals who are fairly accustom in most regards to being the smartest most capable people on any project the majority of us will ever be a part of.

Take an entire community of those people, and tell them they have to just accept "on faith" whatever a group of anonymous internet nerds (said lovingly) above them on the epeen ladder decides for them with little to no explanation....and this is what you get.

Of course we want to know -why-. We want to know -how-. And you bet your ass, we all have grand solutions to everything that would fix everything if you would just fucking listen to us. It could be no other way. We are for the most part a community that survives in our real lives BY FIXING AND LEADING in some regard.

Nobody can do it better than us. Nobody will ever be able to do it as efficiently as we could...if only you would take our advice, because that's what we do.

That's our community in a nutshell. Of course it is going to cause "problems". Some people will get so "fed up" with being put "behind the curtain" and not being listened to that they will flat out get mad about it.

I think that's just a byproduct of our community and the types of people it takes to run a game like this and make a game like this run. Everyone here has tried some other MUD at some point. Everyone here has got a dang good laugh at the expense of the poor quality of roleplay in those other MUDs.

The reason our quality of roleplay is so high here and we can create the sort of in-game experience you can't get anywhere else is because of the type of players we have. We are achievers. We excel at every single thing we do. Even this game.

When you have an entire community of people, including the staff, who believes their way is the right way, because their way is always the right way...you end up with friction.

I think that friction is glorious. It's glorious because we have the types of players in our community where that friction is a possibility. If we didn't have those types of players, and those types of staffers, we would be the same subpar RP experience you can get in any other shitty game where people are spam killing snarks in the middle of city street and saying "rofl" in character like a bunch of herpderps.

Welcome to our glorious melting pot of "know-it-all's", where we all know it all, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

Not to sound sappy, but here goes one of my sappy, happy speeches! :D, but desertman here has it right in a sense, in a positive way, he's saying that everyone here has an incredible passion for what armageddon is, I only joined last year in september, and I can relate to the passion that desertman here is speaking of. I've found a really nice place in armageddon, While im not the most active right now, im constantly looking forward to that chance to really get back into the RP and hoping to learn more about the world of zalanthas at every step.

Passion drives people to want to make the game better, make the experience better, make the RP better.

and well, the best way I can explain it metaphorically is that you guys are all like a big family. Why do family members argue? Passion. They freakin' care :)

My own experiance with the staff so far has been amazing - I come from BYOND, if anyone has heard about it, RP on byond is 99% of the time a nightmare, its worse , way worse then some of those RP muds that are an absolute joke. I came to armageddon with what i like to call 'Byond admin trauma.'  Dealing with admins on byond roleplay games was like this - players were litereally afraid to ask questions becuase if an admin thought it was a dumb quesiton, they would be banned. I've seen people banned on these games for doing something stupid in-character, the admin taking it out on the player OOCly.

I came to armageddon used to that, and I was worried about asking questions from the staffers. But in the end? No, they have been helpful, friendly, and even encouraging to a new player that is still daunted by a lot of the things within the game. They've gone out of their way to give me a peptalk when I was worried about a character concept going down in flames.

I don't think there is a staff/player divide.

I just think as above, that everyone here is passionate about armageddon, they want to make the game better - but the passion collides in a difference of opinions, so trying to find a way to direct that passion to a common goal might help.

I've had some great fun with Armageddon. I've played this game and loved it. I've staffed this game and loved it.

I've read some comments about the work I've done here on Armageddon that has made me feel good and some that has been less than flattering, some of it I felt undeserved, but hey, some of it has been well deserved. At some point, I read comments about myself, about my own person, that were even less than flattering. I'd go so far as to say they were hurtful, spiteful and mean. That if my mother or my son read them they'd turn up at that person's door and kick the ever-loving-shit out of them (and if you met my mother or my son, you'd know I'm telling the truth here). That's what the internet is like.

Do I want players to feel like there is a player/staff divide? No. I really really do not. I don't want you to feel that we aren't listening to you. I don't want you to feel that you aren't valued. And I don't want you to read things about yourself on the internet that would make your family want to break down doors in anger? Definitely not. We are listening, and we do hear what you are saying, but sometimes in the end we will just not agree, and that is where things usually break down.

I don't want you to feel that we're continually moving your goal posts in this game either. When we make changes to the game we really do hope (and want) those changes to have a positive effect. I hear you about better PR. We can try harder there. Nyr and I put in hours of work preparing for Tuluk closure, I'm glad that seemed to have worked. What I haven't been sure about was whether 'PR' in general was the way to go. Sometimes I hear that we're too full of 'corporate speak' and 'PR' talk. So maybe we just need to couch it a little better, explain more, give more details, roll it out a little gentler. We'll try.

As to consultation on all the changes - that's not going to happen, at least not regularly, and others have mentioned why. There's just too many voices, it makes for too much confusion, and there's just so many opinions. But we do take feedback. We're taking feedback on the banking now and we're even shuffling up our timetable on some of our social strata changes due to that feedback.

As to the player/staff divide - I'd go so far as to say that if you're willing to forget the 'positions' and just see the people, we're all just exactly that. I don't really identify myself with the persona of 'Adhira', the label of 'staff' means little to me, other than a commitment I've made to show up and perform a series of functions for other people/the game (for example I've promised 3 hours of my time to do room approvals tomorrow night).  My bet is that if we all met up over a burger and a beer you'd find that there's very little 'divide', plenty to talk about, and lots of common ground.

While I was trying to come up with a good way to word things, Adhira went and beat me to it.

My own thoughts on the dichotomy between player and staff- it doesn't exist. We're all players here, and we stick around because we (hopefully) love the game, and love the community.  The community is what holds it all together and makes it fun.

Sure, there are disagreements here and there. I've been wronged, and wronged others. But I hope to grow from it because, at the end of the day,
(http://www.memegenerator.es/imagenes/memes/full/5/16/5161594.jpg)

Helen gave me the best advice about this situation: You're making this a big deal when it doesn't have to be.

I'm still annoyed/displeased about what had happened to me. (Different situation than this Crim code thing.) But, I was responded to when I engaged staff about the situation. I guess that's about as good as it could have been. Neither me nor staff could "undo" what had been done up to that point, so dragging it on further wouldn't yield different results.

Even if what you find out is "I don't want to work with this person again and will avoid them", that's not wasted time if you dialogue to find that out. You always have options of what to do with your time. Going back and forth needlessly to no effect is wasted time.

If you don't agree with some staff about a subject, take your business to another staffing team. That is, if you've tried to problem resolve first.

I for one would drink ALL the beers with... most of the people here.

All of them.

Especially with Rokal. He and I together will drink half the beers.

Quote from: Adhira on August 05, 2015, 01:28:57 PMI don't want you to feel that we're continually moving your goal posts in this game either.

Alright, I'll bite.

I think this is the part of the entire post that most hit home for me. Looking back on the majority of my issues in the relatively recent past, this has been the root of it. An inconsistency between what I have come to expect and what is now the reality - but the issue arose because I was not aware of the new reality until it (often very negatively) impacted me.  Where I failed was in my attempt to simply roll with the punches and not say anything for fear of being a "problem player" - and then eventually bubbling over with frustration at the perceived unfairness and injustice of it all. It can be difficult to speak up when I, as the player, feel like I have everything to lose and nothing to gain. Staff holds the upper hand in every communication, so I feel they need to remember and be considerate of that simple reality so that players feel at ease bringing up issues and speaking their mind.

Where I feel staff failed was in being forthcoming and equitable with me in regards to these issues, and in not placing enough trust in me, that I could handle the truth. I also feel that when changes are made to game policies, no matter how little or small or secret it is, staff needs to come forward with it immediately so that players know what to expect.

Having played this game for over a decade now, it can be hard to reconcile and keep straight "things that were" with "things that are" - I suspect that's where a lot of the breakdown happens for me. Perhaps that is a simple fact of life for old veterans like myself. Still, regardless of the intention behind the changes, the simple fact is that when you put so much blood, sweat and tears into crafting a story, it is difficult not to react poorly when things happen that were outside the scope of what you had understood to be "the rules".

Proactive and transparent communication would go a long way here.

I do appreciate and thank staff for all of the hard work they do - I equally want staff to thank and appreciate all the hard work players put in, too.

I'll edit to say that I do feel that there were other issues where I was treated thoughtlessly, even poorly, and that there were decisions which staff made that I strongly disagree with, no matter how good their intentions were when making it. I don't claim perfection; I screw up too, but I try to admit it when I have, and I suspect a genuine apology would go a long way toward soothing those hurt feelings, even if there is nothing beyond that which can be done to fix matters, since what's done is done, what's past is past.

Those issues I will address separately through the proper channels.

QuoteHaving played this game for over a decade now, it can be hard to reconcile and keep straight "things that were" with "things that are" - I suspect that's where a lot of the breakdown happens for me. Perhaps that is a simple fact of life for old veterans like myself. Still, regardless of the intention behind the changes, the simple fact is that when you put so much blood, sweat and tears into crafting a story, it is difficult not to react poorly when things happen that were outside the scope of what you had understood to be "the rules".

I very much empathize, Delerium.  I have had issues where 'things that were' became 'things that aren't'.  Things that were okay, are not okay.  Things that were wrong, are not wrong.  Things that were alright to say, are not alright to say.  Things have changed at a very slow rate to the point that I sometimes think of it as the water heating up, and I'm the frog.  Heh.

That being said, though.  Staff communication is -worlds- different than how it was.  I do not perceive this Iron Curtain, because every issue I've had has been free and open to discussion.  Combativeness, however, is never a good thing.  But what some people need to know is that what we have now between players and staff is a very different thing than how it was.  You guys have staffers openly discussing things with you on the GDB for crying out loud.  That's...holy moly sorts of crazy.  The only time you used to see staffers consistently was in personal emails, announcements, and occasionally, to quash a misrepresentation being delivered.  Player staff meetings were the only real place where players could publically, as a group, talk to staff.

In other words, I think there -is- a divide between players and staff, but I think calling it the 'Iron Curtain' -now- is ludicrous.  There is a relationship, a strong one, between players and staff now.  That was something that was very hard to earn, before, and when it actually happened, you were accused of being a pet.  Even if all you did was basically work along with their idea, or ask them to work with yours.  I feel like things are good now, and moving in a good direction, so far as this goes.  I still have my disagreements with certain things...but nothing that detracts from the overall experience that is Armageddon.  I don't quit my awesome job over disagreements on details of my job.  I won't quit my awesome game over disagreements on details of my game.  I'll just take vacations when things start rubbing me the wrong way.  ;)

I have been needlessly combative, yes - for which I will apologize and chalk up to that bottled-up frustration I mentioned.

I don't feel that invalidates my concerns, or that "things are better than they were" means things can't be better than they are.

I'm encouraged by the level-headed and optimistic responses. However, I will be waiting to see how actions measure up to the rhetoric, going forward.

It is hard to place faith in something after repeatedly being burned. I'm sure the staff feels the same way about the playerbase at times.


...and because I haven't used a gif yet,
(http://i.imgur.com/Vy1jNGu.gif)

Er.

To clarify, only the first paragraph of my post was directed at you.  The rest was directed at the newer generation of players who think communication right now is bad.  My general address of the 'Iron Curtain' assertion, if you will.

I would rarely call what you use as 'combative'.  Being a voice of dissent is not the same as being combative.

Great posts Adhira and Delirium.  Really good points.

To piggyback on what Delirium said, I sometimes feel the same way about reconciling "things that were" and "things that are".  I'll come back to aspects of the game that I might not have visited for years that require staff support, I'll expect one thing, and get something completely different.  It can be a bit jarring.  But, the game is going to continuously change...and I guess not all changes are going to be announced so the only way you find out they've changed is if you peek under that rock and see for yourself.

Not sure if I have a great suggestion on how to improve that, but I can echo it's a point of frustration.

Quote from: Adhira on August 05, 2015, 01:28:57 PM
I've had some great fun with Armageddon. I've played this game and loved it. I've staffed this game and loved it.

I've read some comments about the work I've done here on Armageddon that has made me feel good and some that has been less than flattering, some of it I felt undeserved, but hey, some of it has been well deserved. At some point, I read comments about myself, about my own person, that were even less than flattering. I'd go so far as to say they were hurtful, spiteful and mean. That if my mother or my son read them they'd turn up at that person's door and kick the ever-loving-shit out of them (and if you met my mother or my son, you'd know I'm telling the truth here). That's what the internet is like.

A player asked me (quite a while back now) how things had gone with my wedding and honeymoon as they knew something about it from a request response.  I gave them a much shorter response than the second paragraph here when letting them know why I didn't post anything about it.

I like the game and the playerbase.  I am a player.  I've made some really neat people entirely through this game.  I had fun explaining to friends that this beach house trip I took involved meeting several people I've never actually met in real life, all to spend a week on the beach together.  I kind of expect that we'll get criticism for doing our jobs (either doing it well or poorly).  We'll get raked over the coals or praised.  Keeping that within the confines of the game is perfectly dandy, even if it's ridiculous.  (For instance, I occasionally will see a complaint or e-mail that is targeted at me, if only because that player has read some derpy post somewhere and assumes I am involved with something they didn't like...even if I were on an officially posted vacation and could not have been online to do whatever it was they accuse me of doing, anyway.)

Then there's the stuff Adhira mentioned--seeing crap get plastered blasting players (or staff, more often staff) often way beyond what is legitimate, grounded criticism and off into personal insults and diatribes and super weird shit.  Things that might well rile up one's friends and family, as Adhira put it.  Plenty of stuff that is obsessive, creepy, and inappropriate.  For me, that's why there's a divide between myself and the majority of players--you will for the most part only see the staffing part of this particular player.  Much as I want to share things with (most of?) you, I don't want my personal life to be used as fodder in someone's vitriolic internet obsession.

Apart from providing an objective viewpoint/structure for staff review, this is in large part why we have official channels for stuff.  This is why we are not that personal and buddy/buddy.  This is why we keep at least some distance.

Quote from: Adhira on August 05, 2015, 01:28:57 PMMy bet is that if we all met up over a burger and a beer you'd find that there's very little 'divide', plenty to talk about, and lots of common ground.

Yep.  Most of the APM announced stuff is all when I can't go.  I'd enjoy hanging out with you guys.

(https://media3.giphy.com/media/Woc5F2s89MnLO/200_s.gif)

Nyr: I've been reporting all of our Teamspeak conversations to the enemy. I hope you have ADT.

Quote from: Adhira on August 05, 2015, 01:28:57 PM
My bet is that if we all met up over a burger and a beer you'd find that there's very little 'divide', plenty to talk about, and lots of common ground.

Having done tacos and pavlova, and a burger and beer (mmmm ghost chilli beer), with Adhira, this is completely true.

I certainly have had my run ins with staff before, for rubbish play, for feeling shafted etc. My first one was me saying some things to Nyr that were haughty and dumb, over a rez request (in exactly the same situation as Asanadas' thing, if not more cut and dry that it wasn't fair).

At some point it was like eh, I'm allegedly a grown up with a job. If my boss or girlfriend read me talking like that to people over an internet game, they'd lose respect for me. Not to mention that I wouldn't treat my tabletop GM like that either. Staff are just people who I believe try to do the best they can. They can be snippy and are biased too, but they are humans too. Unpaid, on a free game, with a playerbase that individually believes it's entitled to its way and knows best.

YOU SHUT YOUR MOUTH CASE!

Rawr!  Kinda enjoying reading all of this.  I think I'll try to stop by the TS more often to say hello.

I feel that a lot of prisoner's dilemma psychology applies really well to interactions with staff.  It's kind of like a dead drop scenario.  A dead drop scenario goes like this - I leave you money, you take the money, you leave drugs. If both sides cooperate, both people "win."  But when one side defaults, the other side feels really fucked over.  

In Arm terms this plays out more like this: I give you (staff) something you need (information and all the time that goes into supplying it) in exchange for what I (the player) need (support).  Sometimes you don't get information and feel screwed over.  Sometimes I don't get support and feel screwed over.  But the real problem arises when we stop trying to cooperate and default to the "so I'll screw you first" mode of play.  Nobody feels screwed, but nobody gets what they need.

The point is, even if the breakdown is nobody's fault, when people lose trust they stop approaching things from the cooperative benefit of the doubt place and start approaching it from the competitive screw or get screwed place.  It makes it a lot more likely for nobody to win.

Quote from: Ath on August 05, 2015, 03:53:52 PM
Rawr!  Kinda enjoying reading all of this.  I think I'll try to stop by the TS more often to say hello.

I second that, I'll try and stop by the TS sometime!

I personally would love to chat with the staff I work with most regularly on TeamSpeak once in a while if they were comfortable with it.  Voice communications are a million times better than text.

Holy shit. The martyr complex is real.

Quote from: Asanadas on August 04, 2015, 10:42:37 PM
Stuff

Quote from: Asanadas on August 05, 2015, 12:09:11 AM
Much much more stuff

I just thought I should insert here: This player messaged me through steam and alerted me that he was in-fact banned from the game and the forum after making one or both of these posts.

I'm not saying I agree or advocate with anything that had been said, I'm just passing along through this thread and feeling inclined to believe a lot of what some people are saying.

Quote from: Nyr on August 05, 2015, 09:06:13 AM
3)  If after bringing up your issues with staff, then attempting personal growth/examination and also attempting to reconcile your version of events with the biases of reality...you still can't keep from trying to take your issue farther...then maybe it's time to throw in the towel and find another game to play.  There's only one way out at that point.  It does not end with you on a soapbox preaching about the evils of staff that wronged you, particularly when they won't discuss account-specific issues publicly.  (We used to do that when players would go off the deep end and start railing against staff injustices/conspiracy theories/etc.  We don't anymore per the Pig Wrestling Policy^TM.  Now we will just warn players and then ban them once they've gotten that far and refuse to see reason.)

Quote from: Cabooze on August 05, 2015, 06:10:16 PM

Quote from: Asanadas on August 04, 2015, 10:42:37 PM
Stuff

Quote from: Asanadas on August 05, 2015, 12:09:11 AM
Much much more stuff

I just thought I should insert here: This player messaged me through steam and alerted me that he was in-fact banned from the game and the forum after making one or both of these posts.

I'm not saying I agree or advocate with anything that had been said, I'm just passing along through this thread and feeling inclined to believe a lot of what some people are saying.

Well.  I know that when -I- get unbanned from games, I typically dive headfirst into the same thing that got me banned in the first place all over again.  I also demand all of the staff resign and turn over the game to more competent people because, in my opinion, they are incompetent.

Quote from: Armaddict on August 05, 2015, 06:17:52 PM

Quote from: Cabooze on August 05, 2015, 06:10:16 PM

Quote from: Asanadas on August 04, 2015, 10:42:37 PM
Stuff

Quote from: Asanadas on August 05, 2015, 12:09:11 AM
Much much more stuff

I just thought I should insert here: This player messaged me through steam and alerted me that he was in-fact banned from the game and the forum after making one or both of these posts.

I'm not saying I agree or advocate with anything that had been said, I'm just passing along through this thread and feeling inclined to believe a lot of what some people are saying.

Well.  I know that when -I- get unbanned from games, I typically dive headfirst into the same thing that got me banned in the first place all over again.  I also demand all of the staff resign and turn over the game to more competent people because, in my opinion, they are incompetent.

So you're saying there should be change?

(https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/451007105391022080/iu1f7brY_400x400.png)

Quote from: Cabooze on August 05, 2015, 06:21:03 PM

Quote from: Armaddict on August 05, 2015, 06:17:52 PM

Quote from: Cabooze on August 05, 2015, 06:10:16 PM

Quote from: Asanadas on August 04, 2015, 10:42:37 PM
Stuff

Quote from: Asanadas on August 05, 2015, 12:09:11 AM
Much much more stuff

I just thought I should insert here: This player messaged me through steam and alerted me that he was in-fact banned from the game and the forum after making one or both of these posts.

I'm not saying I agree or advocate with anything that had been said, I'm just passing along through this thread and feeling inclined to believe a lot of what some people are saying.

Well.  I know that when -I- get unbanned from games, I typically dive headfirst into the same thing that got me banned in the first place all over again.  I also demand all of the staff resign and turn over the game to more competent people because, in my opinion, they are incompetent.

So you're saying there should be change?

Should is a strong word.  I think if there was a change in his behavior it would help worlds, though.

Quote from: Armaddict on August 05, 2015, 06:29:02 PM

Quote from: Cabooze on August 05, 2015, 06:21:03 PM

Quote from: Armaddict on August 05, 2015, 06:17:52 PM

Quote from: Cabooze on August 05, 2015, 06:10:16 PM

Quote from: Asanadas on August 04, 2015, 10:42:37 PM
Stuff

Quote from: Asanadas on August 05, 2015, 12:09:11 AM
Much much more stuff

I just thought I should insert here: This player messaged me through steam and alerted me that he was in-fact banned from the game and the forum after making one or both of these posts.

I'm not saying I agree or advocate with anything that had been said, I'm just passing along through this thread and feeling inclined to believe a lot of what some people are saying.

Well.  I know that when -I- get unbanned from games, I typically dive headfirst into the same thing that got me banned in the first place all over again.  I also demand all of the staff resign and turn over the game to more competent people because, in my opinion, they are incompetent.

So you're saying there should be change?

Should is a strong word.  I think if there was a change in his behavior it would help worlds, though.

I don't think we're talking about the same person, anymore. I could be wrong, but idk.

Quote from: Cabooze on August 05, 2015, 06:10:16 PM

I just thought I should insert here: This player messaged me through steam and alerted me that he was in-fact banned from the game and the forum after making one or both of these posts.

While I'm not surprised by this in the least, I am a little sad.  Maybe it's because I spent 20 minutes writing a post that was geared towards trying to get him to chill out and step back from this, and it feels like that effort was wasted?  Maybe its because he wasn't a bad player, if you take the OOC attitude out of the equation?  I dunno.  But I'm sad.

Maybe he'll cool off, and in a couple months he'll send in a polite email and ask the staff to reconsider his ban and they'll let him play again?  I know these kinds of bans are rarely permanent if people bury the hatchet.

Jesus Christ.

I'm the guy that got dumped on by templar x for my 2day specapp sorcerer that never even cast magick.

I SHOULD BE THE FUCKING ANGRY ONE

Quote from: Jingo on August 05, 2015, 07:04:29 PM
Jesus Christ.

I'm the guy that got dumped on by templar x for my 2day specapp sorcerer that never even cast magick.

I SHOULD BE THE FUCKING ANGRY ONE

That'll teach you to put something about your character's background when you write your character's application background, duh.

This is another friendly reminder to behave politely and follow the rules. Thank you.

Quote from: Delirium on August 05, 2015, 02:07:05 PM
Alright, I'll bite.

Stuff, stuff, stuff.

Right there.

I don't like the idea of people being banned from the game for complaining about staff. That really isn't sending a message that staff is welcoming of criticism, or that they approach discipline in a manner that's fair or reasonable. No matter how many horror stories you bring up about how staff were worse before, and they're better now, or how many other games have it worse, they still haven't nailed down what I would consider acceptable public relations.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on August 05, 2015, 09:40:23 PM
I don't like the idea of people being banned from the game for complaining about staff. That really isn't sending a message that staff is welcoming of criticism, or that they approach discipline in a manner that's fair or reasonable. No matter how many horror stories you bring up about how staff were worse before, and they're better now, or how many other games have it worse, they still haven't nailed down what I would consider acceptable public relations.

Do you really think it's that simple, or black and white?

I only know what I see. It doesn't matter how complex or gray the situation is if we only ever get one side of the story. I know you have gotten criticism for bringing up unwarranted account and request information in the past and made a policy about it, but that isn't really this sort of situation.  Sure, don't wrestle with pigs or you'll both get dirty and they like it. But if one side is lobbing wads of shit at you, you're still going to get dirty.

Bringing up account and request information when that person themselves is seemingly doling out all that information but(apparently) leaving out other things that adds context to staff's side seems like a good idea. So if it's not that simple or black and white, it's pretty much up to you to show us the gray areas. Otherwise we just have to trust you, and ya'll have a sort of history that makes that hard.

I imagine what was in requests being said to staff was a hell of a lot worse than what we saw here. That's probably what Adhira was hinting at with the "nasty stuff that would make friends and family want to dole out the summary ass kicking".

I can't and won't spend time trying to change your mind RGS, but we are typically pretty reasonable people. I guess you have information to the contrary, and that's fine -- I also think, again, this is holding on to beliefs of the past, and interactions from the past. We are striving to do better, constantly, but that doesn't change the fact that this is a two way street.

When people we deal with are unreasonable to the point where communication is impossible -- Yes, we typically tell them there are hundreds of other games they can play, and this may not be one of them. It's true, and actually, I don't mean that in a malicious way at all. There -are- hundreds of games to play out there, and maybe this one just doesn't click with them. There is nothing in the rules of the game that entitles people to play ArmageddonMUD. We do our best to make sure people can play the game, but we try to spend our time on players that want to make the game a better place, enjoy playing it, and so on. These people can even have legitimate complaints or concerns, and they typically handle it quite well via the Request Tool with us. We go out of our way to make sure everyone playing this game is having a good time, trust me.
Sometimes that isn't enough, and people will carry the cross on their back for as long as they play the game. That's fine, it's their decision, but like I put at the top of this reply -- I can't and won't spend time trying to change people's minds. I'll only do the best I can in my capacity as a Storyteller and Player, and call it a day.

I think I started playing Arm somewhere around 2002/03. I can clearly recall the likes of Tlaloc, Ashyom, Halaster, Sanvean and others that were part of "The old Guard" or this "history" people keep bringing up. I'm afraid I entirely failed to see the divide then, and I /really/ can't see the divide with our current staff. I've butted heads and done some jerk-ish things along the way, and yet I've always received prompt request/character turn around, fair responses to any questions I've asked, and have been permitted to play several sponsor roles and every one of the karma classes.

Staff, then and now, didn't hold my personal history against me, so why are we holding the history of a few from the past against the entire staff, even years (and years) past relevance? The "Us Vs. Them" mentality like John Q. Public against the Government doesn't really seem appropriate for Arm.

When it comes to game changes, I still don't buy it. Whether publicly announced or not, the changes staff have worked to bring in were done with the games best interest at heart. Fortune teller is not part of the job description for staff, so if something didn't pan out perfectly, they didn't all sit behind the scenes with popcorn to point and laugh at us.

Nessalin, who is to have the "Boogeyman" mystique among many players, in my personal interaction with him, is one of the most fair men I've come across. The fact that he's not much for entertaining whining isn't a short-coming when dealing with a community such as ours - be polite and constructive and he'll reply in kind.

Nyr, who is (apparently to some) our new age boogeyman - works so bloody hard for this game that I wonder when the man sleeps and is regularly fed a heaping pile from the stables for his efforts as he, too, doesn't wish to entertain childishness.

Adhira: If you actually think she's out to get you, or hide things from you...Well, nothing I post will matter or help.

These people run the game, folks. Storytellers and Admins report to them, and I assure you that they would smell something rotten pretty quick if the players were getting unfairly shafted. They want people playing the game and having fun. No players = no Arm, and guess what? No staff = no Arm. We all want the same thing at the end of the day, so play nice.

Everything bad that has ever happened to me has happened because I was a dumb and I deserved it.

I put in a complaint about the burning RPT a while back, and I worded it so strongly I actually went back and cancelled it because I immediately felt bad about how mad I was getting. It was pretty childish, but I can usually see stuff like that if I take a minute. Then I just realize I was being angry for nothing and I cancel it. Most of my complaints are usually done out of anger.

Quote from: aeglaeca on August 05, 2015, 04:45:20 AM
I really hope this thread isn't written with the intent to dissuade people from expressing disagreement or concerns with changes to the game. *Especially* not if the reasoning is, "Well, someone else probably already thought of your objections," or, "Staff shouldn't need to care about player input." Not asking for player input ahead of time is one thing; dissuading players from speaking about it at all afterwards is something else completely.

That was not my intent, no.  My intent was all and only to ask people to try to understand each other better, give each other a little more credit.  Because things will not always go smoothly between two groups with different goals (make a great game/have fun vs. tell a great story/have fun).

I see where you might walk away thinking people want others to stow their concerns, because they have assuredly already been brought up, but I don't think that is what was actually meant.  I think those players were more intending to convey, 'Staff have this well in hand, don't get so excited.'  I don't think anyone wants to stifle discussion, but some moderation may be necessary.  Messages get lost and distorted when emotions run high.

In terms of a 'divide', I think it is something that is comparable to the divide between enlisted soldiers and officers in the military (without the added complexities of laws about fraternization, formalized courtesies, and lingering class distinctions).  That is to say, the differences are:

• Officers do not need to fear giving offense to soldiers. (They do not wish to do so, granted, but they have very few negative consequences to face, should they do so.) The opposite is not true.
• Officers possess both the responsibility and authority to make command decisions. Soldiers, on the other hand, are primarily expected to follow said decisions and obey orders.
• Officers have a hierarchical order of responsibility, starting with the mission, then going to the organization as a whole, then to the unit, then the individual soldier. Soldiers have the same priorities, to an extent, but their actions are much less likely to impact the organization or the individual negatively while still benefitting the mission.

The divide, I think, if you want to call it such, is not caused by these things, it is these things.  Or, if you want to be very technical, you might say the sense of a divide is directly caused by an individual's awareness of, and emotional reaction to these differences.  Going back to the military analogy, officers are patently aware of the differences, but they have very little emotional reaction to them because they are almost never negatively impacted by them.  For this reason, it is not uncommon to see officers who express that the feeling of going from enlisted to officer was not as profound as they expected.  Soldiers, on the other hand, are frequently left wondering, in their interactions with officers, if they are about to be handed an order that will negatively impact them, and feeling like the officers may not be that concerned with their individual welfare, as the officers have other priorities.  Mind that I am not saying this notional divide is a bad thing (I'm not even certain its remotely preventable).  I am merely trying to define it and it's effects.  Perhaps "divide" is a poor word choice.  It evokes something large and impassable.  Perhaps it would simply be better to say there is a difference.

I started writing a post aimed at Aasnadas, which may now be moot, but whatever:
Asanadas, as far as your situation goes, it sounds like you got an unlucky hand.  In fact, if I recall correctly, you got a few of them, all in a row.  That sucks.  I really doubt anyone thinks it doesn't, or that you should just suck it up.  But reacting badly (harshly) won't make a bad situation any better.  I wasn't there.  I don't know what solution you felt was reasonable that staff disagreed with, but I would guess they did so because even if the resolution was fair for you or those affected (and there are no guarantees), it might not have been fair to everyone else or acceptable to the game policies (going back to #3 reason above).  Even if it was legitimately unfair to you, that doesn't necessarily make it a bad decision on the staff's part.

I know it's hard for people to rebuild that trust with staff after feeling burned by something.  And I hope that people who do feel burned don't also feel that the playerbase is siding with staff against them when topics like this come up.  I don't think that anyone wants to say that those feelings aren't valid sometimes (or I hope they don't).  I know I would just like to see cooler heads (and words) prevail, for the whole community, and to see embittered players returned to the fold, to keep things running smoothly, so everyone can have more fun.

Quote from: Malken on August 05, 2015, 07:34:47 PM

Quote from: Jingo on August 05, 2015, 07:04:29 PM
Jesus Christ.

I'm the guy that got dumped on by templar x for my 2day specapp sorcerer that never even cast magick.

I SHOULD BE THE FUCKING ANGRY ONE

That'll teach you to something something something, duh.

I mean that's the point. I didn't metagame the shit out of that character and was basically punished for it. Not to mention I still think that the staff response to my complaint was ass-backwards.

BUT

Does that make staff the corrupt love-child of Hitler-Putin? No.
Does that mean I crucify myself in utter defiance to staff? No.
Does that mean I become a complete piece of human trash and cyber-bully staff on my own forum? No.
I got over it. Which is actually something Nyr told me I needed to do.

Learning how to deal with disappointments and not get hung up on them is part of the Armageddon learning curve. So is figuring out which staff you just don't play well together with. They're not out to get you, but some people just don't communicate well with each other. Whether it's differing visions of the game or just plain old personality difference, disagreements are going to happen. It's not worth anyone's time (especially yours) driving an issue in to the ground.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on August 06, 2015, 01:20:13 AM
Learning how to deal with disappointments and not get hung up on them is part of the Armageddon learning curve. So is figuring out which staff you just don't play well together with. They're not out to get you, but some people just don't communicate well with each other. Whether it's differing visions of the game or just plain old personality difference, disagreements are going to happen. It's not worth anyone's time (especially yours) driving an issue in to the ground.

IRL, Badskeelz and I get angry with each other talking about Arm.

IG, we hit it off really well.

Lol.

not done,clicked submit too fast

Communication.

Anytime I've ever cruised into frustrations and such with staff it was generally just bad communication.

If it wasn't communication, it fell into what delirium was talking about.

The best example of that i have is, awhile back I made a karma review request. I'd like to think I wasn't bitching too hard but I did include a line like "four years and nothing? Not even x leader and y leader?"


Staffer was like: "Bro, no karma review request in 4 years..."

----> When I originally started it didn't work this way. I hadn't understood the changes actually changed the way the karma system worked I thought it was just an additional way to get karma if you were missed. (Things like= karma review flag on in game still were confusing me. What's the point if you have an OOC system...)

Anyways communication is key. I've gone back and looked at player/staff correspondence and realize with all the back and forth that I have actually missed entire sections of shit from time to time and just facepalmed.

Also, I go out of my way when I'm involved in a role to try and make sure staff know (or try to) that if we disagree on something how much I actually appreciate ANY feedback or help from them, even if we are at odds on something.

TLDR: Be a good communicator. Have a little humanity. Staff didn't get their jobs extracting your tears. (There were other qualifiers I hope.)

TL;DR of the whole thread seems to be:

There's no Iron Curtain. Look over here, where there's a door that you can walk through!
I once had a bad experience with staff, that means all staff are bad.
I have a legitimate complaint. Better put in a request.
Staff are great! None of us posting in here are staff alt accounts!



The only legit responses are ones that mention communication. This goes both ways, though a dozen staff monitoring 200+ unique accounts can't possibly be easy. I will say, that when you're in a high-profile or sponsored role, and you're told that "I've never actually seen you play" but that staffer puts negative account notes on your pfile, its a little suspect. But communicate. Say something. And when staff blow it out of proportion, throw it on the Jcarter board and edit out all the snarky comments you made so even "good old Calavera" can be shamed.

There are actually no Staff alts posting on this thread.

#conspiracies
#illuminati

Eurynomos, I'm going to need you to comment in another thread. We're trying to be divided right now and you're fucking it up.  >:(

Dear players:
The idea that if you say something nice about staff on the boards you're either an alt or a synchophant is shitty. Knock that off. It's not productive. I've played this game for almost thirteen years. I think I've earned the right to say when I think staff gets it right. I sure as shit tell them when they get it wrong. (And don't fucking scold me for it on the boards when I do that either. Right Reiloth?)
Love and kisses
Deb

Dear Staff:
I noticed a great improvement on the boards. Thank you. Very wise to know your strengths and see who does best at diffusing sensitive and emotional situations.
-Deb

Every time i'm mean, Barzalene sends me angry PMs.

Quote from: Majikal on August 06, 2015, 02:36:48 PM
Eurynomos, I'm going to need you to comment in another thread. We're trying to be divided right now and you're fucking it up.  >:(

Sorry, i'll let you get back to your dissent.

Eury, less talking, more bans and deleting. You have to help uphold the truth of the other forums. This "being good staff" thing has got to stop.



... Seriously, though. I dunno if I have anything to add to this, except:

(https://i.imgflip.com/p6p25.jpg) (https://imgflip.com/i/p6p25)

I've had my disagreements with staff in the past. I wanted to change the entire world, or at least leave behind some kind of legacy.

After realizing this wasn't really possible, I slowly began to chill out and now play with a certain indifference. I barely contribute but don't expect anything in return.

Also being polite & civilized with staff goes a long way. Trust me. If you guys could only see my past account notes. Wowee.

I mostly approve of the job staff are doing, and the level of communication I've observed... that being said...

When you read over your account notes and see something that seems, like a petty thing, a string of them, but, alright, fair criticism, but, I feel that was a justified act on my part, things being what they are, I'll try to do this better, etc., and then you see some of the things other players seem to get away with, it can strike you as unfair. Since there are things that you don't, and can't possibly know about the situation as a whole, it's easy to spin up conspiracy theories and think they're all out to get you. Considering some of the things I've said over the years to staff, it's suprising I haven't been banned out of sheer spite, and I think this says something about how they handle the game, and the number of player and staff complaints I've submitted is likely pretty rediculous, though when I notice something I approve of, I try to send in kudos, but, I don't always find the time, and it can be difficult to decide just how to word kudos. Rage-fueled tirades just kind of happen naturally.

Anyway, thanks, staff. I don't play for karma, though I'd like some to play some more interesting roles, it's really not a concern of mine, and at this point, I've pretty much accepted it's not happening, and I didn't even whine about you taking the one point I did have away, so I really have little reason to BS you all. I appreciate the job you all do and the gameworld is inspiring. You might not like me, I might get that impression, but when I do I need to take a deep breath, relax, and realize, well, the staff on any other game would have responded in a much less professional and fair way, and learn to appreciate that more.

Staff have always been good to me, I just have this strong anti-authority mentality that stirs in my belly and works its way up from time to time. I won't always agree with them, and that's fine. But I should probably spend less time caring so much about trivial bullshit and just focus on having, and showing others, a good time.

I'm going to fucking communicate my fist into your fucking groins if you don't all start getting along RIGHT FUCKING NOW.

Quote from: Malifaxis on August 06, 2015, 07:45:09 PM
I'm going to fucking communicate my fist into your fucking groins if you don't all start getting along RIGHT FUCKING NOW.

#boycottnyr2015

Revenant,  that was real.

Quote from: Revenant on August 06, 2015, 05:56:07 PM
I mostly approve of the job staff are doing, and the level of communication I've observed... that being said...

When you read over your account notes and see something that seems, like a petty thing, a string of them, but, alright, fair criticism, but, I feel that was a justified act on my part, things being what they are, I'll try to do this better, etc., and then you see some of the things other players seem to get away with, it can strike you as unfair. Since there are things that you don't, and can't possibly know about the situation as a whole, it's easy to spin up conspiracy theories and think they're all out to get you.

One thing to keep in mind (and keep ur chin up): account notes are probably written to be terse and informative with other staff as the intended recipient.  And then you request to see them.

It's as if you were describing what you like and don't like about a painting, being technical and thorough about every flaw you saw, maybe even because you were enthusiastic about some of the artist's other work.  And then you realize the person you're talking to is the artist.  There's no way that's going to go off without a hitch.

By sharing these notes with you, staff are doing you the favor of being completely frank and informative, perhaps almost robotic, about what they perceive as things you do good (or bad).  But keep your skin thick and remember the context they're coming from! :)

I hate most paintings, I think, about the only artist I could ever sit down with and gush enthusiasm to is Vincent Van Gogh, and when I realized I was talking to the artist I'd likely get very embarrassed, turn red in the face, and flee, if Vincent didn't do so first.

The points on account notes are really interesting to me. If staff didn't allow you to see your account notes (which used to the case), you wouldn't be able to get pissy over staff criticisms. On the other side, if staff didn't allow players to review account notes, many would get pissy over lack of transparency.

I wonder which option generates the least unrest.

Either way, most of us have probably have a few pejorative comments on our notes. Kudos to staff for leaving them on there when they send them to you, knowing it could piss people off.

Asking for account notes is like asking your close friend what another friend is saying about you... or asking your boss for a performance review... or your employees for feedback on your management style. Don't ask unless you're ready to hear!

If you ask for account notes and see something negative, don't put too much weight in it.

If I'm watching your PC and see you doing <something dumb> and then I check your notes and see you have a note from six months prior about how you were asked to stop doing <something dumb>... I'm gonna be bummed. But if I'm reviewing your app for a sponsored role, or a spec app, or commenting on a karma review, and I see you have an old note about <something dumb>, I'm probably not gonna think about it too much.

If you see you have a bad note, consider it an area you might improve on and don't sweat it. If it really is bothering you and you feel like you want to open a dialogue about a note, the request tool does exist. If the note is something like 2+ years old and you aren't doing <insert dumb thing> anymore, don't worry about it.

Quote from: Mordiggian on August 07, 2015, 08:30:50 AM
If you ask for account notes and see something negative, don't put too much weight in it.

If I'm watching your PC and see you doing <something dumb> and then I check your notes and see you have a note from six months prior about how you were asked to stop doing <something dumb>... I'm gonna be bummed. But if I'm reviewing your app for a sponsored role, or a spec app, or commenting on a karma review, and I see you have an old note about <something dumb>, I'm probably not gonna think about it too much.

If you see you have a bad note, consider it an area you might improve on and don't sweat it. If it really is bothering you and you feel like you want to open a dialogue about a note, the request tool does exist. If the note is something like 2+ years old and you aren't doing <insert dumb thing> anymore, don't worry about it.

Mordiggian, you likely know I LOVE doing naughty, dumb things, that's about %90 of the things I do. I like to imagine admins cringing in horror whenever I type ooc concent?

Also, if you see someone doing something stupid and breaking the rules, let us know and we'll investigate.  We do want to game to improve, we do want to make it better, and we do want to make sure those that are breaking the rules of the game are taken care of.  There are times where we may not see things or we'll miss things.  If it is really game breaking, wish up!  Either way, if someone is doing something stupid and breaking the rules, don't just accept it... report it.  This is your game too, we all play together, and we all want it to be fun.

I actually stopped by the TS last night.  It was fun to chat and talk about a few things.  OMG!  Someone even got rid of a rug!

Quote from: Lizzie on August 04, 2015, 10:25:59 PM
I'm not a fan of every change that's been made, but I agree with James that the playerbase doesn't need to be consulted, and that the staff shouldn't feel obligated to consult us.

There are a lot of changes this game has gone through that I don't like. But my liking or not liking a change should have no bearing on what the staff chooses to do. And my liking or not liking a change has no bearing on any expectation I should have of being consulted. I'm not a staff member, they should not feel obligated to consult with me, or any other non-staff-member player, unless they're needing test subjects to play around with a code change. I -have- been consulted on that in the past, and was tickled pink (as in - very happy) that they did so.

But no, the membership at large doesn't "deserve" to be consulted about much, and it could end up being counter-productive, if instead of actually making necessary changes, they spent all their time listening to the debates back and forth, and the game comes to a standstill as a result.

I would have to disagree based on the facts that the players are the ones that have to live with the changes, if the players walked because of the changes, where does that leave the game?  It leaves it like a lot of other muds, namely, with no players, dead in the water.

There has to be a happy medium where staff and players communicate what changes are coming and see if they are warranted, wanted or add to the positive element of the game as opposed to causing another sore spot.  Blindly agreeing with staff to score points doesn't seem to be in the best interest of everyone, neither does bitching because you disagree with staff help foster a magnificent game such as this.  There should be, IMO a happy medium (as mentioned previously) that can be reached.

Just my $0.02

Quote from: frankjacoby on August 10, 2015, 11:57:55 AM

Quote from: Lizzie on August 04, 2015, 10:25:59 PM
I'm not a fan of every change that's been made, but I agree with James that the playerbase doesn't need to be consulted, and that the staff shouldn't feel obligated to consult us.

There are a lot of changes this game has gone through that I don't like. But my liking or not liking a change should have no bearing on what the staff chooses to do. And my liking or not liking a change has no bearing on any expectation I should have of being consulted. I'm not a staff member, they should not feel obligated to consult with me, or any other non-staff-member player, unless they're needing test subjects to play around with a code change. I -have- been consulted on that in the past, and was tickled pink (as in - very happy) that they did so.

But no, the membership at large doesn't "deserve" to be consulted about much, and it could end up being counter-productive, if instead of actually making necessary changes, they spent all their time listening to the debates back and forth, and the game comes to a standstill as a result.

I would have to disagree based on the facts that the players are the ones that have to live with the changes, if the players walked because of the changes, where does that leave the game?  It leaves it like a lot of other muds, namely, with no players, dead in the water.

There has to be a happy medium where staff and players communicate what changes are coming and see if they are warranted, wanted or add to the positive element of the game as opposed to causing another sore spot.  Blindly agreeing with staff to score points doesn't seem to be in the best interest of everyone, neither does bitching because you disagree with staff help foster a magnificent game such as this.  There should be, IMO a happy medium (as mentioned previously) that can be reached.

Just my $0.02

Take you $0.02 and spend half of it to read this thought.

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49813.0.html

They do communicate, they do listen, they aren't just mindless coding machines.  They love this game just like we do.  Some decisions are awesome for us, some decisions we might not agree with, and yet others might seem like mistakes at first only to become completely radsauce once we see the exact scope of everything. 

And if you think the staff don't play the game and enjoy it just like we do, I will be forced to laugh down my sleeve at you.

Had you read my post good sir, you would not see fit to flame me thusly, but I shall not respond further, I bid you a fond adieu.

THIS right here is why I don't usually bother participating on the forums

That was flaming? Wow.

It's ironic that our staff, with their excellent communication and listening skills, have these kinds of problems at all. All these people with complaints must be sociopaths. Why can't they all just go somewhere and die so all of us normal well adjusted, breathing feeling, human beings, filled with understanding and compassion, can get on with this beautiful thing we all love called ArmageddonMUD.

Quote from: Molten Heart on August 11, 2015, 12:55:35 PM
It's ironic that our staff, with their excellent communication and listening skills, have these kinds of problems at all. All these people with complaints must be sociopaths. Why can't they all just go somewhere and die so all of us normal well adjusted, breathing feeling, human beings, filled with understanding and compassion, can get on with this beautiful thing we all love called ArmageddonMUD.

(http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/78/789e6f9383750a686280aafd07e9e6da92da0ecd13c3671129f92b87523592cb.jpg)

Sorry, sometimes the cynicism gets out.

I sense... sarcasm.

Thinly veiled sarcastic comment to feel clever while undermining the work of others.

Quote from: frankjacoby on August 10, 2015, 11:57:55 AM
It leaves it like a lot of other muds us with no players fuel, no prospects, dead in the water on the drift.

(http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/26200000/Malcolm-Reynolds-malcolm-reynolds-26244345-900-1398.jpg)

THAT AIN'T US. NOT NEVER.

There will always be a divide between players and staff.

It was this way in the beginning.  It will be this way at the end.

It is not a problem; it is simply a truth whenever you have one group of people using a product and a separate group of people managing the product.  The two groups will have interaction and a multitude of variables will be entered into each unique interpersonal equation.  Those variables will include the nature of the request, the tone of the request, wording of the request, timing of the request, recipient of the request, timeliness of response, wording of response, tone of response, acceptance of a request/idea/submission/demand and the fragile ego to which it is attached, the sheer volume of requests that day, the number of times said staff member has received this request today, the emotional color of the conversation they just finished with another staffer, etc...

If you don't like it on one side of the fence, endeavor to become the change you want to see and come to the other side of the fence.  It may not bring you happiness, but you will probably understand the nature of the problem with deeper understanding than when you began that process.

This happens everywhere you go in life -- apartments, corporate jobs, Amazon, school systems, political offices -- some portion of the people not in power will always be at odds with those people in power.

Because people.  Because human.

Thanks, Obama.

Quote from: Is Friday on August 11, 2015, 03:48:08 PM
Thinly veiled sarcastic comment to feel clever while undermining the work of others.

What's this in reference to?

Derail:  Whut?  LoD is still here?!

Quote from: Desertman on August 11, 2015, 04:00:49 PM

Quote from: frankjacoby on August 10, 2015, 11:57:55 AM
It leaves it like a lot of other muds us with no players fuel, no prospects, dead in the water on the drift.

(http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/26200000/Malcolm-Reynolds-malcolm-reynolds-26244345-900-1398.jpg)

THAT AIN'T US. NOT NEVER.

I nominate best post in thread.

Someone pointed out to me recently, (the voice in my head), that staff may not realize all of the hard work I put into a char. They don't see me, the player, struggle with what options are realistic, what I can do to have fun but still remain IC, etc. I do A LOT of thinking about how my char should act, and sometimes there are things that really, really affect my char that continues while I'm logged off. So if I log back in, and my char is acting pissy, the staff watching might not know why. I didn't write up a bio immediately, so they're clueless as to this change in demeanor, and may not understand my reasoning completely.

This is just a small example of the staff not knowing what kind of work I put in, and how hard I try to play true to the role, and add to the game. A lot of times, I may not even be successful in my attempts.

I mention all of this, because it was this exchange that allowed me to flip the script and put myself in staff shoes. There's how many staff members? (I don't even know) And what do they all do? And how often? I'm sure there's tons of communication and exchange, and I'm certain staff can attest that no changes get implemented without a lot of thought. But I don't see it. It's not visible, so it's not readily apparent, and I'm not often thinking about it.

Change in general is upsetting for me when I'm not forewarned of it. Even though I haven't railed against staff often (I keep my mouth shut about my feelings. Feelings are for breeds), I do still get irritated when they do things that I don't agree with, or make changes that I think, frankly, suck.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, if staff puts as much thought into their actions as I do mine, they have fifty good reasons for every thing they do, and each option has been weighed carefully. I just really have to trust that they care as much as I do, and considering they spend a shit ton more time working on Arm than I do, it's pretty reasonable to defer to their judgement.



Still, I think I would like more visibility from staff. And I still want the playerbase to create 30 page threads discussing the pros and cons of whether or not to nerf HG bash.

This thread is awesome.  Would like to recommend to staff to encourage more of this type of stuff.  It does more to eliminate suspicions, mistrust and conspiracy theories than any number of boiler-plate announcements do.

This game is run so much better than it was in the dark days and I think that having a (polite) public grief process will dry up about 80% of the public grief.

My own problem with the staff?  Well, about a year and a half ago, I was playing this SLK character who....ah, ya know what?  It's not worth it.  Just seeing other people posting openly about their problems with the staff, and having the staff respond politely is evaporating any remaining angst I have about the issue.  Thanks for listening, though.

                                     ^
                                     l
                                     l


  Found the Divide.

Quote from: Kol on September 01, 2015, 01:04:34 PM
                                    ^
                                     l
                                     l


  Found the Divide.

This is subtle and I like it a lot

the spoon (divide) is in your mind.