The Staff / Player Divide

[Is Friday]

Nyr: I've been reporting all of our Teamspeak conversations to the enemy. I hope you have ADT.

[Case]

My bet is that if we all met up over a burger and a beer you'd find that there's very little 'divide', plenty to talk about, and lots of common ground.

Having done tacos and pavlova, and a burger and beer (mmmm ghost chilli beer), with Adhira, this is completely true.

I certainly have had my run ins with staff before, for rubbish play, for feeling shafted etc. My first one was me saying some things to Nyr that were haughty and dumb, over a rez request (in exactly the same situation as Asanadas' thing, if not more cut and dry that it wasn't fair).

At some point it was like eh, I'm allegedly a grown up with a job. If my boss or girlfriend read me talking like that to people over an internet game, they'd lose respect for me. Not to mention that I wouldn't treat my tabletop GM like that either. Staff are just people who I believe try to do the best they can. They can be snippy and are biased too, but they are humans too. Unpaid, on a free game, with a playerbase that individually believes it's entitled to its way and knows best.

[Desertman]

YOU SHUT YOUR MOUTH CASE!

I KNOW WHAT'S BEST FOR EVERYONE!!!

[Ath]

Rawr!  Kinda enjoying reading all of this.  I think I'll try to stop by the TS more often to say hello.

[valeria]

I feel that a lot of prisoner's dilemma psychology applies really well to interactions with staff.  It's kind of like a dead drop scenario.  A dead drop scenario goes like this - I leave you money, you take the money, you leave drugs. If both sides cooperate, both people "win."  But when one side defaults, the other side feels really fucked over.  

In Arm terms this plays out more like this: I give you (staff) something you need (information and all the time that goes into supplying it) in exchange for what I (the player) need (support).  Sometimes you don't get information and feel screwed over.  Sometimes I don't get support and feel screwed over.  But the real problem arises when we stop trying to cooperate and default to the "so I'll screw you first" mode of play.  Nobody feels screwed, but nobody gets what they need.

The point is, even if the breakdown is nobody's fault, when people lose trust they stop approaching things from the cooperative benefit of the doubt place and start approaching it from the competitive screw or get screwed place.  It makes it a lot more likely for nobody to win.

[Rokal]

Rawr!  Kinda enjoying reading all of this.  I think I'll try to stop by the TS more often to say hello.

I second that, I'll try and stop by the TS sometime!

[wizturbo]

I personally would love to chat with the staff I work with most regularly on TeamSpeak once in a while if they were comfortable with it.  Voice communications are a million times better than text.

[Jingo]

Holy shit. The martyr complex is real.

[Cabooze]

Stuff

Much much more stuff

I just thought I should insert here: This player messaged me through steam and alerted me that he was in-fact banned from the game and the forum after making one or both of these posts.

I'm not saying I agree or advocate with anything that had been said, I'm just passing along through this thread and feeling inclined to believe a lot of what some people are saying.

[Nyr]

3)  If after bringing up your issues with staff, then attempting personal growth/examination and also attempting to reconcile your version of events with the biases of reality...you still can't keep from trying to take your issue farther...then maybe it's time to throw in the towel and find another game to play.  There's only one way out at that point.  It does not end with you on a soapbox preaching about the evils of staff that wronged you, particularly when they won't discuss account-specific issues publicly.  (We used to do that when players would go off the deep end and start railing against staff injustices/conspiracy theories/etc.  We don't anymore per the Pig Wrestling Policy^TM.  Now we will just warn players and then ban them once they've gotten that far and refuse to see reason.)

[Armaddict]

Stuff

Much much more stuff

I just thought I should insert here: This player messaged me through steam and alerted me that he was in-fact banned from the game and the forum after making one or both of these posts.

I'm not saying I agree or advocate with anything that had been said, I'm just passing along through this thread and feeling inclined to believe a lot of what some people are saying.

Well.  I know that when -I- get unbanned from games, I typically dive headfirst into the same thing that got me banned in the first place all over again.  I also demand all of the staff resign and turn over the game to more competent people because, in my opinion, they are incompetent.

[Cabooze]

Stuff

Much much more stuff

I just thought I should insert here: This player messaged me through steam and alerted me that he was in-fact banned from the game and the forum after making one or both of these posts.

I'm not saying I agree or advocate with anything that had been said, I'm just passing along through this thread and feeling inclined to believe a lot of what some people are saying.

Well.  I know that when -I- get unbanned from games, I typically dive headfirst into the same thing that got me banned in the first place all over again.  I also demand all of the staff resign and turn over the game to more competent people because, in my opinion, they are incompetent.

So you're saying there should be change?

[Armaddict]

Stuff

Much much more stuff

I just thought I should insert here: This player messaged me through steam and alerted me that he was in-fact banned from the game and the forum after making one or both of these posts.

I'm not saying I agree or advocate with anything that had been said, I'm just passing along through this thread and feeling inclined to believe a lot of what some people are saying.

Well.  I know that when -I- get unbanned from games, I typically dive headfirst into the same thing that got me banned in the first place all over again.  I also demand all of the staff resign and turn over the game to more competent people because, in my opinion, they are incompetent.

So you're saying there should be change?

Should is a strong word.  I think if there was a change in his behavior it would help worlds, though.

[Cabooze]

Stuff

Much much more stuff

I just thought I should insert here: This player messaged me through steam and alerted me that he was in-fact banned from the game and the forum after making one or both of these posts.

I'm not saying I agree or advocate with anything that had been said, I'm just passing along through this thread and feeling inclined to believe a lot of what some people are saying.

Well.  I know that when -I- get unbanned from games, I typically dive headfirst into the same thing that got me banned in the first place all over again.  I also demand all of the staff resign and turn over the game to more competent people because, in my opinion, they are incompetent.

So you're saying there should be change?

Should is a strong word.  I think if there was a change in his behavior it would help worlds, though.

I don't think we're talking about the same person, anymore. I could be wrong, but idk.

[wizturbo]

I just thought I should insert here: This player messaged me through steam and alerted me that he was in-fact banned from the game and the forum after making one or both of these posts.

While I'm not surprised by this in the least, I am a little sad.  Maybe it's because I spent 20 minutes writing a post that was geared towards trying to get him to chill out and step back from this, and it feels like that effort was wasted?  Maybe its because he wasn't a bad player, if you take the OOC attitude out of the equation?  I dunno.  But I'm sad.

Maybe he'll cool off, and in a couple months he'll send in a polite email and ask the staff to reconsider his ban and they'll let him play again?  I know these kinds of bans are rarely permanent if people bury the hatchet.

[Jingo]

Jesus Christ.

I'm the guy that got dumped on by templar x for my 2day specapp sorcerer that never even cast magick.

I SHOULD BE THE FUCKING ANGRY ONE

[Malken]

Jesus Christ.

I'm the guy that got dumped on by templar x for my 2day specapp sorcerer that never even cast magick.

I SHOULD BE THE FUCKING ANGRY ONE

That'll teach you to put something about your character's background when you write your character's application background, duh.

[Delirium]

This is another friendly reminder to behave politely and follow the rules. Thank you.

[Vwest]

Alright, I'll bite.

Stuff, stuff, stuff.

Right there.

[RogueGunslinger]

I don't like the idea of people being banned from the game for complaining about staff. That really isn't sending a message that staff is welcoming of criticism, or that they approach discipline in a manner that's fair or reasonable. No matter how many horror stories you bring up about how staff were worse before, and they're better now, or how many other games have it worse, they still haven't nailed down what I would consider acceptable public relations.

[Eurynomos]

I don't like the idea of people being banned from the game for complaining about staff. That really isn't sending a message that staff is welcoming of criticism, or that they approach discipline in a manner that's fair or reasonable. No matter how many horror stories you bring up about how staff were worse before, and they're better now, or how many other games have it worse, they still haven't nailed down what I would consider acceptable public relations.

Do you really think it's that simple, or black and white?

[RogueGunslinger]

I only know what I see. It doesn't matter how complex or gray the situation is if we only ever get one side of the story. I know you have gotten criticism for bringing up unwarranted account and request information in the past and made a policy about it, but that isn't really this sort of situation.  Sure, don't wrestle with pigs or you'll both get dirty and they like it. But if one side is lobbing wads of shit at you, you're still going to get dirty.

Bringing up account and request information when that person themselves is seemingly doling out all that information but(apparently) leaving out other things that adds context to staff's side seems like a good idea. So if it's not that simple or black and white, it's pretty much up to you to show us the gray areas. Otherwise we just have to trust you, and ya'll have a sort of history that makes that hard.

[Saellyn]

I imagine what was in requests being said to staff was a hell of a lot worse than what we saw here. That's probably what Adhira was hinting at with the "nasty stuff that would make friends and family want to dole out the summary ass kicking".

[Eurynomos]

I can't and won't spend time trying to change your mind RGS, but we are typically pretty reasonable people. I guess you have information to the contrary, and that's fine -- I also think, again, this is holding on to beliefs of the past, and interactions from the past. We are striving to do better, constantly, but that doesn't change the fact that this is a two way street.

When people we deal with are unreasonable to the point where communication is impossible -- Yes, we typically tell them there are hundreds of other games they can play, and this may not be one of them. It's true, and actually, I don't mean that in a malicious way at all. There -are- hundreds of games to play out there, and maybe this one just doesn't click with them. There is nothing in the rules of the game that entitles people to play ArmageddonMUD. We do our best to make sure people can play the game, but we try to spend our time on players that want to make the game a better place, enjoy playing it, and so on. These people can even have legitimate complaints or concerns, and they typically handle it quite well via the Request Tool with us. We go out of our way to make sure everyone playing this game is having a good time, trust me.
Sometimes that isn't enough, and people will carry the cross on their back for as long as they play the game. That's fine, it's their decision, but like I put at the top of this reply -- I can't and won't spend time trying to change people's minds. I'll only do the best I can in my capacity as a Storyteller and Player, and call it a day.

[Lukoyin]

I think I started playing Arm somewhere around 2002/03. I can clearly recall the likes of Tlaloc, Ashyom, Halaster, Sanvean and others that were part of "The old Guard" or this "history" people keep bringing up. I'm afraid I entirely failed to see the divide then, and I /really/ can't see the divide with our current staff. I've butted heads and done some jerk-ish things along the way, and yet I've always received prompt request/character turn around, fair responses to any questions I've asked, and have been permitted to play several sponsor roles and every one of the karma classes.

Staff, then and now, didn't hold my personal history against me, so why are we holding the history of a few from the past against the entire staff, even years (and years) past relevance? The "Us Vs. Them" mentality like John Q. Public against the Government doesn't really seem appropriate for Arm.

When it comes to game changes, I still don't buy it. Whether publicly announced or not, the changes staff have worked to bring in were done with the games best interest at heart. Fortune teller is not part of the job description for staff, so if something didn't pan out perfectly, they didn't all sit behind the scenes with popcorn to point and laugh at us.

Nessalin, who is to have the "Boogeyman" mystique among many players, in my personal interaction with him, is one of the most fair men I've come across. The fact that he's not much for entertaining whining isn't a short-coming when dealing with a community such as ours - be polite and constructive and he'll reply in kind.

Nyr, who is (apparently to some) our new age boogeyman - works so bloody hard for this game that I wonder when the man sleeps and is regularly fed a heaping pile from the stables for his efforts as he, too, doesn't wish to entertain childishness.

Adhira: If you actually think she's out to get you, or hide things from you...Well, nothing I post will matter or help.

These people run the game, folks. Storytellers and Admins report to them, and I assure you that they would smell something rotten pretty quick if the players were getting unfairly shafted. They want people playing the game and having fun. No players = no Arm, and guess what? No staff = no Arm. We all want the same thing at the end of the day, so play nice.