The Staff / Player Divide

[Saellyn]

Everything bad that has ever happened to me has happened because I was a dumb and I deserved it.

I put in a complaint about the burning RPT a while back, and I worded it so strongly I actually went back and cancelled it because I immediately felt bad about how mad I was getting. It was pretty childish, but I can usually see stuff like that if I take a minute. Then I just realize I was being angry for nothing and I cancel it. Most of my complaints are usually done out of anger.

[James de Monet]

I really hope this thread isn't written with the intent to dissuade people from expressing disagreement or concerns with changes to the game. *Especially* not if the reasoning is, "Well, someone else probably already thought of your objections," or, "Staff shouldn't need to care about player input." Not asking for player input ahead of time is one thing; dissuading players from speaking about it at all afterwards is something else completely.

That was not my intent, no.  My intent was all and only to ask people to try to understand each other better, give each other a little more credit.  Because things will not always go smoothly between two groups with different goals (make a great game/have fun vs. tell a great story/have fun).

I see where you might walk away thinking people want others to stow their concerns, because they have assuredly already been brought up, but I don't think that is what was actually meant.  I think those players were more intending to convey, 'Staff have this well in hand, don't get so excited.'  I don't think anyone wants to stifle discussion, but some moderation may be necessary.  Messages get lost and distorted when emotions run high.

In terms of a 'divide', I think it is something that is comparable to the divide between enlisted soldiers and officers in the military (without the added complexities of laws about fraternization, formalized courtesies, and lingering class distinctions).  That is to say, the differences are:

• Officers do not need to fear giving offense to soldiers. (They do not wish to do so, granted, but they have very few negative consequences to face, should they do so.) The opposite is not true.
• Officers possess both the responsibility and authority to make command decisions. Soldiers, on the other hand, are primarily expected to follow said decisions and obey orders.
• Officers have a hierarchical order of responsibility, starting with the mission, then going to the organization as a whole, then to the unit, then the individual soldier. Soldiers have the same priorities, to an extent, but their actions are much less likely to impact the organization or the individual negatively while still benefitting the mission.

The divide, I think, if you want to call it such, is not caused by these things, it is these things.  Or, if you want to be very technical, you might say the sense of a divide is directly caused by an individual's awareness of, and emotional reaction to these differences.  Going back to the military analogy, officers are patently aware of the differences, but they have very little emotional reaction to them because they are almost never negatively impacted by them.  For this reason, it is not uncommon to see officers who express that the feeling of going from enlisted to officer was not as profound as they expected.  Soldiers, on the other hand, are frequently left wondering, in their interactions with officers, if they are about to be handed an order that will negatively impact them, and feeling like the officers may not be that concerned with their individual welfare, as the officers have other priorities.  Mind that I am not saying this notional divide is a bad thing (I'm not even certain its remotely preventable).  I am merely trying to define it and it's effects.  Perhaps "divide" is a poor word choice.  It evokes something large and impassable.  Perhaps it would simply be better to say there is a difference.

I started writing a post aimed at Aasnadas, which may now be moot, but whatever:
Asanadas, as far as your situation goes, it sounds like you got an unlucky hand.  In fact, if I recall correctly, you got a few of them, all in a row.  That sucks.  I really doubt anyone thinks it doesn't, or that you should just suck it up.  But reacting badly (harshly) won't make a bad situation any better.  I wasn't there.  I don't know what solution you felt was reasonable that staff disagreed with, but I would guess they did so because even if the resolution was fair for you or those affected (and there are no guarantees), it might not have been fair to everyone else or acceptable to the game policies (going back to #3 reason above).  Even if it was legitimately unfair to you, that doesn't necessarily make it a bad decision on the staff's part.

I know it's hard for people to rebuild that trust with staff after feeling burned by something.  And I hope that people who do feel burned don't also feel that the playerbase is siding with staff against them when topics like this come up.  I don't think that anyone wants to say that those feelings aren't valid sometimes (or I hope they don't).  I know I would just like to see cooler heads (and words) prevail, for the whole community, and to see embittered players returned to the fold, to keep things running smoothly, so everyone can have more fun.

[Jingo]

Jesus Christ.

I'm the guy that got dumped on by templar x for my 2day specapp sorcerer that never even cast magick.

I SHOULD BE THE FUCKING ANGRY ONE

That'll teach you to something something something, duh.

I mean that's the point. I didn't metagame the shit out of that character and was basically punished for it. Not to mention I still think that the staff response to my complaint was ass-backwards.

BUT

Does that make staff the corrupt love-child of Hitler-Putin? No.
Does that mean I crucify myself in utter defiance to staff? No.
Does that mean I become a complete piece of human trash and cyber-bully staff on my own forum? No.
I got over it. Which is actually something Nyr told me I needed to do.

[BadSkeelz]

Learning how to deal with disappointments and not get hung up on them is part of the Armageddon learning curve. So is figuring out which staff you just don't play well together with. They're not out to get you, but some people just don't communicate well with each other. Whether it's differing visions of the game or just plain old personality difference, disagreements are going to happen. It's not worth anyone's time (especially yours) driving an issue in to the ground.

[Case]

Learning how to deal with disappointments and not get hung up on them is part of the Armageddon learning curve. So is figuring out which staff you just don't play well together with. They're not out to get you, but some people just don't communicate well with each other. Whether it's differing visions of the game or just plain old personality difference, disagreements are going to happen. It's not worth anyone's time (especially yours) driving an issue in to the ground.

IRL, Badskeelz and I get angry with each other talking about Arm.

IG, we hit it off really well.

Lol.

[Suhuy]

not done,clicked submit too fast

[Aruven]

Communication.

Anytime I've ever cruised into frustrations and such with staff it was generally just bad communication.

If it wasn't communication, it fell into what delirium was talking about.

The best example of that i have is, awhile back I made a karma review request. I'd like to think I wasn't bitching too hard but I did include a line like "four years and nothing? Not even x leader and y leader?"


Staffer was like: "Bro, no karma review request in 4 years..."

----> When I originally started it didn't work this way. I hadn't understood the changes actually changed the way the karma system worked I thought it was just an additional way to get karma if you were missed. (Things like= karma review flag on in game still were confusing me. What's the point if you have an OOC system...)

Anyways communication is key. I've gone back and looked at player/staff correspondence and realize with all the back and forth that I have actually missed entire sections of shit from time to time and just facepalmed.

Also, I go out of my way when I'm involved in a role to try and make sure staff know (or try to) that if we disagree on something how much I actually appreciate ANY feedback or help from them, even if we are at odds on something.

TLDR: Be a good communicator. Have a little humanity. Staff didn't get their jobs extracting your tears. (There were other qualifiers I hope.)

[Riev]

TL;DR of the whole thread seems to be:

There's no Iron Curtain. Look over here, where there's a door that you can walk through!
I once had a bad experience with staff, that means all staff are bad.
I have a legitimate complaint. Better put in a request.
Staff are great! None of us posting in here are staff alt accounts!



The only legit responses are ones that mention communication. This goes both ways, though a dozen staff monitoring 200+ unique accounts can't possibly be easy. I will say, that when you're in a high-profile or sponsored role, and you're told that "I've never actually seen you play" but that staffer puts negative account notes on your pfile, its a little suspect. But communicate. Say something. And when staff blow it out of proportion, throw it on the Jcarter board and edit out all the snarky comments you made so even "good old Calavera" can be shamed.

[Eurynomos]

There are actually no Staff alts posting on this thread.

#conspiracies
#illuminati

[Majikal]

Eurynomos, I'm going to need you to comment in another thread. We're trying to be divided right now and you're fucking it up. 

[Barzalene]

Dear players:
The idea that if you say something nice about staff on the boards you're either an alt or a synchophant is shitty. Knock that off. It's not productive. I've played this game for almost thirteen years. I think I've earned the right to say when I think staff gets it right. I sure as shit tell them when they get it wrong. (And don't fucking scold me for it on the boards when I do that either. Right Reiloth?)
Love and kisses
Deb

Dear Staff:
I noticed a great improvement on the boards. Thank you. Very wise to know your strengths and see who does best at diffusing sensitive and emotional situations.
-Deb

[Reiloth]

Every time i'm mean, Barzalene sends me angry PMs.

[Eurynomos]

Eurynomos, I'm going to need you to comment in another thread. We're trying to be divided right now and you're fucking it up. 

Sorry, i'll let you get back to your dissent.

[Saellyn]

Eury, less talking, more bans and deleting. You have to help uphold the truth of the other forums. This "being good staff" thing has got to stop.



... Seriously, though. I dunno if I have anything to add to this, except:

[Rhyden]

I've had my disagreements with staff in the past. I wanted to change the entire world, or at least leave behind some kind of legacy.

After realizing this wasn't really possible, I slowly began to chill out and now play with a certain indifference. I barely contribute but don't expect anything in return.

Also being polite & civilized with staff goes a long way. Trust me. If you guys could only see my past account notes. Wowee.

[Revenant]

I mostly approve of the job staff are doing, and the level of communication I've observed... that being said...

When you read over your account notes and see something that seems, like a petty thing, a string of them, but, alright, fair criticism, but, I feel that was a justified act on my part, things being what they are, I'll try to do this better, etc., and then you see some of the things other players seem to get away with, it can strike you as unfair. Since there are things that you don't, and can't possibly know about the situation as a whole, it's easy to spin up conspiracy theories and think they're all out to get you. Considering some of the things I've said over the years to staff, it's suprising I haven't been banned out of sheer spite, and I think this says something about how they handle the game, and the number of player and staff complaints I've submitted is likely pretty rediculous, though when I notice something I approve of, I try to send in kudos, but, I don't always find the time, and it can be difficult to decide just how to word kudos. Rage-fueled tirades just kind of happen naturally.

Anyway, thanks, staff. I don't play for karma, though I'd like some to play some more interesting roles, it's really not a concern of mine, and at this point, I've pretty much accepted it's not happening, and I didn't even whine about you taking the one point I did have away, so I really have little reason to BS you all. I appreciate the job you all do and the gameworld is inspiring. You might not like me, I might get that impression, but when I do I need to take a deep breath, relax, and realize, well, the staff on any other game would have responded in a much less professional and fair way, and learn to appreciate that more.

[RogueGunslinger]

Staff have always been good to me, I just have this strong anti-authority mentality that stirs in my belly and works its way up from time to time. I won't always agree with them, and that's fine. But I should probably spend less time caring so much about trivial bullshit and just focus on having, and showing others, a good time.

[Malifaxis]

I'm going to fucking communicate my fist into your fucking groins if you don't all start getting along RIGHT FUCKING NOW.

[Cabooze]

I'm going to fucking communicate my fist into your fucking groins if you don't all start getting along RIGHT FUCKING NOW.

#boycottnyr2015

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Revenant,  that was real.

[CodeMaster]

I mostly approve of the job staff are doing, and the level of communication I've observed... that being said...

When you read over your account notes and see something that seems, like a petty thing, a string of them, but, alright, fair criticism, but, I feel that was a justified act on my part, things being what they are, I'll try to do this better, etc., and then you see some of the things other players seem to get away with, it can strike you as unfair. Since there are things that you don't, and can't possibly know about the situation as a whole, it's easy to spin up conspiracy theories and think they're all out to get you.

One thing to keep in mind (and keep ur chin up): account notes are probably written to be terse and informative with other staff as the intended recipient.  And then you request to see them.

It's as if you were describing what you like and don't like about a painting, being technical and thorough about every flaw you saw, maybe even because you were enthusiastic about some of the artist's other work.  And then you realize the person you're talking to is the artist.  There's no way that's going to go off without a hitch.

By sharing these notes with you, staff are doing you the favor of being completely frank and informative, perhaps almost robotic, about what they perceive as things you do good (or bad).  But keep your skin thick and remember the context they're coming from!

[Revenant]

I hate most paintings, I think, about the only artist I could ever sit down with and gush enthusiasm to is Vincent Van Gogh, and when I realized I was talking to the artist I'd likely get very embarrassed, turn red in the face, and flee, if Vincent didn't do so first.

[roughneck]

The points on account notes are really interesting to me. If staff didn't allow you to see your account notes (which used to the case), you wouldn't be able to get pissy over staff criticisms. On the other side, if staff didn't allow players to review account notes, many would get pissy over lack of transparency.

I wonder which option generates the least unrest.

Either way, most of us have probably have a few pejorative comments on our notes. Kudos to staff for leaving them on there when they send them to you, knowing it could piss people off.

Asking for account notes is like asking your close friend what another friend is saying about you... or asking your boss for a performance review... or your employees for feedback on your management style. Don't ask unless you're ready to hear!

[Mordiggian]

If you ask for account notes and see something negative, don't put too much weight in it.

If I'm watching your PC and see you doing <something dumb> and then I check your notes and see you have a note from six months prior about how you were asked to stop doing <something dumb>... I'm gonna be bummed. But if I'm reviewing your app for a sponsored role, or a spec app, or commenting on a karma review, and I see you have an old note about <something dumb>, I'm probably not gonna think about it too much.

If you see you have a bad note, consider it an area you might improve on and don't sweat it. If it really is bothering you and you feel like you want to open a dialogue about a note, the request tool does exist. If the note is something like 2+ years old and you aren't doing <insert dumb thing> anymore, don't worry about it.

[Revenant]

If you ask for account notes and see something negative, don't put too much weight in it.

If I'm watching your PC and see you doing <something dumb> and then I check your notes and see you have a note from six months prior about how you were asked to stop doing <something dumb>... I'm gonna be bummed. But if I'm reviewing your app for a sponsored role, or a spec app, or commenting on a karma review, and I see you have an old note about <something dumb>, I'm probably not gonna think about it too much.

If you see you have a bad note, consider it an area you might improve on and don't sweat it. If it really is bothering you and you feel like you want to open a dialogue about a note, the request tool does exist. If the note is something like 2+ years old and you aren't doing <insert dumb thing> anymore, don't worry about it.

Mordiggian, you likely know I LOVE doing naughty, dumb things, that's about %90 of the things I do. I like to imagine admins cringing in horror whenever I type ooc concent?