In the sneaky noble thread, Armaddict talked about nobles at the start of the century and how they were different. (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48983.msg872455.html#msg872455) And Semper made some really cogent points about those differences. (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48983.msg872503.html#msg872503)
I think it's true there was more freedom. And it opened up the door for leaders to be amazing. People were able to take opportunities to be as awesome as they their imaginations let them be. There are PCs we still talk about today. Like Fatty Tor. It also opened the door for silliness we still talk about and shake our heads. (And no, let's not list those things, because there's no point and why hurt feelings.)
I think staff has found a really good balance in most things. I think the expectations are clearer. They are again involved in plotting. They gave us a war. The code is better than it ever was and communication works much better.
I'd like to talk about ways to let pc's again be more impactful. But just because I'd like to talk about it, doesn't mean we really need to. Is this a conversation worth having? If it is, how do open that door? The thing about the restrictions that people complain about that I really sympathize with is that if you give everyone the freedom to change the game world, eventually you don't have a recognizable and consistent world. Is there a better balance?
Disclaimer: I am in no way knocking anyone. I've seen really awesome stuff in game. I've seen really awesome leaders in game.
Nobles aren't allowed (currently, anyway) to hire to fill out their combat clans. That leaves the only roles in Noble clans BESIDES the blood noble being Aides, or in Oash's case, mages. So you don't have to worry about Lord Borsail sending his Wyverns to rough you up in the sands, and maybe drag you in with their slave stock on a slaving run. Nobles don't have fighting dudes at their beck and call, in an official capacity. Now to beat someone up, a Noble has to go through two or three channels just to murder Joe Grebber.
Nobles don't have a lot of cash. Well, they have more cash than Amos the Merchant just out of chargen, but if he sits in his apartment and tailors for a game week, they don't anymore. Nobles are usually on a fixed income, unless they've got some dude or dudes paying them off for some reason and, let's be honest, why would you pay off a noble when you can pay off a Templar? Templars and soldiers are a noble's main source of flex power within the city. Maybe nobles used to make more money? Because if you're a noble and you want to assassinate and indie merchant, you're probably gonna have a bad time if that merchant has been at all conscious about making money. Perhaps you're lucky and they're either incompetent or playing a flavor role?
Nobles aren't immune to crimcode. Maybe some of them are and others aren't? But, there's no reason to be IMMINENTLY afraid of a noble. You can be latently scared that if you piss off Talia Borsail that, in a couple of RL days, she'll have gotten all her ducks in a row and let Lord Templar Fivesoldiers that she, virtually, is a member of one of the most powerful institutions in Allanak and he should probably murder that indie merchant no matter how much he has paid him off. Now Lord Templar Fivesoldiers doesn't have as much money, because Talia Borsail doesn't have much money and Merchant Braies is dead because his trousers got a little too high on his haunches. Knowing a noble can't imminently do anything to you without laboring to call in five soldiers and two Templar has a pretty castrating effect on their invulnerable high-power mystique.
I think the playerbase (as far as unique logins) has stayed relatively static the past few years, but I also think that as veterans leave the game, newbies have less to see as a "this is what is possible" model.
So far as nobles.... the few I've known have been pretty damned good and do attempt to have things "happen". Whether its digging for artifacts, being used as a tool in their political schemes, trying to raise/breed their own superbeasts.
The trouble, I think, is that a lot of Noble goals take so long, and must be kept so secret, that rarely do people really get so see it through. You might hear House Dasari is looking for still-living gortoks and paying a hefty price... but the player may never ever know what they were a part of. Necessarily so, but its hard to say "Look at how cool nobles are" when... there's really nothing to see.
If I'd change anything, it'd be for there to be more of a focus on nobles legit just calling their friend Tony Hardnose, the Blue because some commoner didn't bow the right way, or approached THEM instead of their guard. At least in 'Nak, I'd like to see a bit more "non-lethal" correction.
I've noticed people just get incredibly assblasted in-game when they happen upon a 'mean' noble. Especially commoners. And then the noble seems powerless to do anything about it because he can stomp and shout all he wants but if he doesn't have PCs working for him to fuck people up, and no PCs want to help him, he's limited to crying to staff that the dirty commoners or whoever else are ignoring their social status.
What I'd like to see:
Nobles, and clanned employees of any rank higher than recruit would be able to subdue and throw anyone who is *not* clanned, as long as the employee is in the presence of the noble. That way, employees can't just go around subduing and throwing people around just because the code lets them (which would be as annoying as commoner grebbers mouthing off to nobles in bars just because the code prevents the noble from doing anything about it).
This would need to not result in autocombat or a crimflag, because no one is trying to attack anyone. Just a grab and toss, to throw someone out of a bar, or out of the way - these are things that -should- be within the rights of nobles to do, any time, for any reason, or no reason at all. They should be able to order their trusted (non-recruit) minions to do this on their behalf, in their presence.
So, I'd like to see that. I think it'd go a long way in reinforcing some of the power the nobility (and their trusted minions) has over the common unclanned rabble.
Could even extend it so if a clanned commoner of recruit rank mouths off to a noble, he's just as subject to being tossed as if he wasn't clanned at all.
I've always wanted politics fleshed out. Like for there to be a true participation in the process at the player level. (This may already be the case. I'm not in a position to know. But since I haven't seen it, I'm going to go ahead and mention in case it's not in place.) I'm not saying they should be at the top of the food chain and driving the politics. I'm saying they should be in the car though.
And I think the point about having some actual power is solid. Is there a way to let people carve that power out that isn't game breaking?
To my knowledge, there is not currently a solution to allow nobles any exceptions to the crimcode and staff are not comfortable clanning nobles in their respective militias as a workaround.
I don't really know how to address the issue, because it's similar to the response people have to anything antagonistic in game, ie. putting a 3000 coin bounty on that pickpocket or sending three magickers to hunt that raider.
The nobles that commanded real, genuine loyalty from their Aides/servants are the ones who treat them like they have value or inherent use. It's fine to be mean, in my opinion, but ruling by fear denotes a lack of charisma. You want your underlings to adore you, so that they feel compelled to see your plans and plots succeed. Also, if you reward for performance, you _will_ get performance.
Not always true. Fear is an excellent motivator and ruling through fear does not mean lacking in charisma.
Quote from: Tetra on March 14, 2015, 09:37:10 PM
The nobles that commanded real, genuine loyalty from their Aides/servants are the ones who treat them like they have value or inherent use. It's fine to be mean, in my opinion, but ruling by fear denotes a lack of charisma. You want your underlings to adore you, so that they feel compelled to see your plans and plots succeed. Also, if you reward for performance, you _will_ get performance.
Even if your underlings love you, you may want your enemy's underlings to fear you.
(Though I agree that it's more in my comfort zone to play minions to people who my pc's don't despise.)
Quote from: Saellyn on March 14, 2015, 09:37:54 PM
Not always true. Fear is an excellent motivator and ruling through fear does not mean lacking in charisma.
Fear is a motivator, but it doesn't inspire sincere loyalty, which was where I was going with that tangent. If you can't be magnetic as well as imposing, you're only seeing half the coin.
Also being a noble doesn't exempt you from appreciating your subordinates, giving praise where it is due, and generally making them feel like they have purpose(even if it's as a tool).
Quote from: Barzalene on March 14, 2015, 09:39:49 PM
Even if your underlings love you, you may want your enemy's underlings to fear you.
(Though I agree that it's more in my comfort zone to play minions to people who my pc's don't despise.)
That's very true. Because everyone knows you're better, simple for your caste, it's not really necessary to constantly shove it in people's faces. You want them to worry about what you might do to them...A healthy anxiety. But from observation, just putting on airs as a noble really breeds contempt and puts a big target on your back. You want fear in your enemies, but a finessed fear.
I think Allanaki Nobles need more external conflict, and backing from The Powers That Be. In the current way things are, a Noble is pretty much one of the top players in a pyramid of PC characters. Thus, the only real way to get things going is through the limited powers that a minor Noble has. If the power from the top is limited, it's like squeezing a hose, and there's a trickle down effect that negatively impacts the amount and quality of plots further down.
A minor noble will never be able to impact the over-all power-scale in Allanak by themselves, and maaaybe if a bunch of minor nobles got together, plus a templar or two (which basically includes the cap of the PC nobility/templars allowed at a time), they could cause a ripple, but you won't see Houses falling or rising, or wars being won/lost.
Ultimately, you either need to increase the power of a minor Noble in impacting the virtual/coded political scene in Allanak, OR you need to have a background of political strife going on that can feed into the plots that a minor Noble/Templar can work with.
As an example, if Borsail can slip from their peg as the premier house because of what a PC noble can do, or you can directly influence the power of your House in the wider region, that kind of ripple effect would make it way more interesting for players to want to get involved, and then the number of minions and players on the field increase. Focus all the power and attention in Allanak, and you won't need to worry about players wandering off on their own, because they won't want to miss the action going on in the center.
Kind of a different topic, and I'm not sure if it'll be at all possible, but what if a Noble and their "party" had the backing of a Storyteller?
In each city-state, then, you could potentially have two or three "parties", and a bit of a rivalry between each party. All the plots and things generated with each party is run by the ST, similar to how a ST might be running a Clan, but no longer limited to Coded Clans but now to the wider impact of what their political party is doing.
(Using American Politics as an example, a ST would no longer just back "the state of Alaska", but would be backing "the Republican party". Then all the folks from around the nation who are "republican" are under this influence. This is purely as an example!!!)
Quote from: Semper on March 15, 2015, 12:39:40 PM
Kind of a different topic, and I'm not sure if it'll be at all possible, but what if a Noble and their "party" had the backing of a Storyteller?
In each city-state, then, you could potentially have two or three "parties", and a bit of a rivalry between each party. All the plots and things generated with each party is run by the ST, similar to how a ST might be running a Clan, but no longer limited to Coded Clans but now to the wider impact of what their political party is doing.
(Using American Politics as an example, a ST would no longer just back "the state of Alaska", but would be backing "the Republican party". Then all the folks from around the nation who are "republican" are under this influence. This is purely as an example!!!)
I would love to see more politicking, and the few instances I've seen have been really awesome. The big problem I've observed is the lack of PC (nobles/aides) to keep the plots going long enough. (Hence, I'd love to see consolidation of maybe nobles into one city just for a bit just to see what politicalplay can come about when things are full and popping!)
I love the idea of houses having an agenda (I'm paraphrasing Semper here. Apologies if that wasn't his intention.) Maybe your noble has other agendas. Maybe your noble dies. There's still something going on so there is never a vacuum. And because in theory there are different agendas there is innate opportunity for meaningful conflict.
On politicking: when I played a noble, any time I wanted to push an agenda or pull some sort of stunt, I would ask myself "If this were a Game of Thrones episode, would it be a good one?"
On money: I think, especially with last year's changes to noble income, money should not be a big issue anymore. If your House is on a lower tier, and your income is not enough on its own to do your think, your House will probably be willing to give you more for a project, and if not, you can always seek out people who do have money for loans or investments. However, having a little bit of money or a lot of money might mean you can afford to buy that new slave you want, or build that giant gilded dildo statue in the estate yard, but it is not a functional, in-game power to the degree that the docs imply it is. A lot of people simply don't care about money.
On power: The biggest issue I see, even more than things like uppity commoners, is the fact that regardless of what a noble says or does, a PC templar can override him at any point and there's nothing he can do about it except put it in a report.
One of the main reasons nobles have less power - is that there are multiple noble houses - vying for dominance in each City-state. On the other hand, the templarate are a unified order and designated to be the peacekeepers with the power to kill on whim. Add to that their ability to command NPC guards.
In the olden days, from back when I started playing Arm, it used to be that the nobles were ranked above the templarate, and they were actually allowed to do anything without any consequences. I've seen many a noble smoking spice in Trader's Inn in Allanak, even when templars passed through. Back in those days, the general feeling was that a noble could actually just "tell" a templar to kill off a PC who had offended them, even without so much as dirtying their own hands - and it was implied that the templars in turn would comply with such "requests" as long as no harm came to any of the other noble houses.
Sadly, there has been a divergence in the templarate and nobility itself, off late. Since a few years, the templars act as if they don't need the nobles, and that the noble houses are there just to perform some perfunctory functions in the background of the game, while the templarate are the be-all and end-all as far as running the city-states goes. The nobles are in turn forced to compensate - appearing impotent at times even.
A noble should never have to resort to something like putting out a bounty from his/her personal funds, to take care of a nuisance. S/he should be able to just "ask" a templar to "help them out" and in turn the templar should "acquiesce", as long as the deed in question doesn't stem from inter-noble-house politicks.
Back in the 90s - nobles were like the mafia-kings - no one even spoke to them unless they had balls, or some real justification to do so. Most would just bow and shut up in the presence of nobles. Nowadays there's almost zero fear (both ICLY and OOCLY) for commoner PCs and even foreigner PCs and non-human PCs - coz they know - "hey, nobles can't do shit, they can't even touch us even if they wanted to...they're just rich PCs who use long words, talk a lot, and walk from taverns to their estates and basically don't do jack."
Ideally speaking, the noble PCs should have the maximum power in a City-State and the templarate should operate in tandem with the nobility, both groups aware that they need each other, and that their mutual existence and continued prosperity can only occur with each other's constant support. And, this "joint-understanding" needs to be displayed, demonstrated and conveyed to the PC and VNPC population.
I am not pointing fingers at any templars here, but just stating what is "felt" in game, these days, so please dont take it personally!
Currently - it's like a middle-eastern country in turmoil. The ruling class is still in place, and has all the titles and the money and the land and the oil drilling rights, but all the power rests with the military commanders and the secret service.
Armaddict's post about the lack of power for noble PCs is definitely something that needs to be reviewed.
Also, as MeTekillot pointed out - currently, noble PCs have hiring caps, which also makes things harder - especially for militarized houses.
Agendas for House's would be great to have out of the gates. They don't even have to be THE plot, just a Side Plot for the House. They could be devised before the PC even enters the game.
House Oash? Your House in the midst of magical research that went awry and left your predecessor babbling incoherently and quietly executed by the House. What stone will you unturn?
House Borsail? 2-3 NPCs have escaped the Pens and are now residing in the Labyrinth. Track them down and kill them, or re-enslave them. Staff animates the NPCs whenever they feel like it, enhancing the flavor of both the Labyrinth, and Borsail and its constituents.
House Winrothol? The House has been investigating a new breed for a long time -- A full-blooded Giant, so large that they can pull an Argosy by themselves. All attempts at producing a live specimen have failed before. Will you succeed where others have failed?
House Kassigarh? A minor "House" has started in the Warrens, that is offering loan-sharking and moneylending that competes with Kassigarh's markets. You've been tasked with finding the ringleaders and stomping them out, or bringing them into the fold.
House Tenneshi? Someone's poisoned the water supply -- Several dozen laborers are sick and a few have died. Was it someone within the House? Or an enemy from without? You, minor Noble, must prove your worth and get to the bottom of it.
House Dasari? Artful assassination! Your cousin has been killed from a contract, and the sources can't be unveiled. However, a particular poison was used at the scene of the crime, one that you identified. Your House is tasking you to quietly discover who the Contractor was, as it wasn't a perfect contract, if a Dasari could discover the means of death.
There is plenty of politicking going on. I think one of the more difficult problems we have as noble PCs is that it is ridiculously hard to codedly wage war against enemies in the city or outside it.
One of the opponents of fostering regular conflict is crim code. Minions do not have immunity from the crim code and neither do nobles. Should they? I guess not, because people might abuse it. Does crim code stifle most public displays of dominance? Yes. We're left with secret backdoor deals and waiting for the stars to align in order to kill low ranking employees or indies, most of the time.
Blackmail is codedly difficult.
Framing someone for a crime is codedly difficult.
edit:
The coded limitations are because DIKU, not really something that I think can easily be fixed.
How about you become crimcode immune if you are aligned with a Noble House. Then, the Templarate (and the AoD) really DO become the law-holders, because only they can deal with minions stepping outside of the boundary of public peace.
Boom, problem between Nobles and Templars solved. And pcs have waaay more incentive to join a Noble house because you are physically/socially threatened if you are independent or on "the fence" between two noble parties.
The city then is no longer "safe", but a practical warzone where the fragile peace its citizens feel is truly in the hands of the Templarate and the Noble Houses, and if you arent kissing ass to one of them, you may as well run outside the gates and risk the raiders and beasts.
(Mwaha I love this idea more and more.)
Quote from: Semper on March 15, 2015, 02:52:36 PM
How about you become crimcode immune if you are aligned with a Noble House. Then, the Templarate really DO become the law-holders, because only they can deal with minions stepping outside of the boundary of public peace.
Boom, problem between Nobles and Templars solved. And pcs have waaay more incentive to join a Noble house because you are physically/socially threatened if you are independent or on "the fence" between two noble parties.
(Mwaha I love this idea more and more.)
I love this idea too, but sometimes you hire people you aren't completely sure of. They're new or they're naughty and you hope to get them on track. It's scary to give those people criminal immunity. It's even more scary to make noble clans so exclusive that new players can't join. How do we account for that in this idea? Maybe rank?
Quote from: Barzalene on March 15, 2015, 02:55:26 PM
Quote from: Semper on March 15, 2015, 02:52:36 PM
How about you become crimcode immune if you are aligned with a Noble House. Then, the Templarate really DO become the law-holders, because only they can deal with minions stepping outside of the boundary of public peace.
Boom, problem between Nobles and Templars solved. And pcs have waaay more incentive to join a Noble house because you are physically/socially threatened if you are independent or on "the fence" between two noble parties.
(Mwaha I love this idea more and more.)
I love this idea too, but sometimes you hire people you aren't completely sure of. They're new or they're naughty and you hope to get them on track. It's scary to give those people criminal immunity. It's even more scary to make noble clans so exclusive that new players can't join. How do we account for that in this idea? Maybe rank?
Rank, just like it is if you're an AoD recruit. You have to prove oocly and icly that you can handle the responsibility before trust is given with being a privileged member of a Noble House, and I think that makes sense both in and out of game.
This would also make way more sense to actually have PC guards instead of NPC ones, because a PC provides more comprehensive defense against threats than a limited NPC could provide. Conflict between Noble Houses would become a real deal, since you could have actual battles in the middle of the night (if things escalated that much), and the only ones who could stop or limit the blood shed are AoD and Templars.
I think there's a lot more tweaking that would need to be done though, since the potential for abuse is high, but if we could work it out I think it would leave the city a more dynamic and scary place to live, with the semblence of order on the surface.
Oh!! And then the Labyrinth becomes a viable place to escape to, with its own set of rules. It would really liven up the city and make Allanak really mirror Armageddon's theme of desperate survival.
Quote from: Barzalene on March 15, 2015, 02:55:26 PM
Quote from: Semper on March 15, 2015, 02:52:36 PM
How about you become crimcode immune if you are aligned with a Noble House. Then, the Templarate really DO become the law-holders, because only they can deal with minions stepping outside of the boundary of public peace.
Boom, problem between Nobles and Templars solved. And pcs have waaay more incentive to join a Noble house because you are physically/socially threatened if you are independent or on "the fence" between two noble parties.
(Mwaha I love this idea more and more.)
I love this idea too, but sometimes you hire people you aren't completely sure of. They're new or they're naughty and you hope to get them on track. It's scary to give those people criminal immunity. It's even more scary to make noble clans so exclusive that new players can't join. How do we account for that in this idea? Maybe rank?
This isnt a problem. Usually all noble houses have two branches. One for the nobility (Nobles of House So and So) and one for the employees (Servants of the House So and So). Immunity could be provided for the former and not for the latter.
There is, to my knowledge, no functional way to allow crimcode immunity to multiple clans and as much as people ask for it, I don't think it's the sort of thing that's going to be implemented.
I'm trying to brainstorm other solutions to the status quo problem and will post any I come up with.
Quote from: HavokBlue on March 15, 2015, 03:27:32 PM
There is, to my knowledge, no functional way to allow crimcode immunity to multiple clans and as much as people ask for it, I don't think it's the sort of thing that's going to be implemented.
I'm trying to brainstorm other solutions to the status quo problem and will post any I come up with.
In the past, nobles could attack commoners anywhere in the city and not be affected by crimcode. However, if soldiers were nearby, they would still follow their 'assist' code, which is, I assume, the problem with that system that made it so this was apparently removed...soldiers would never assist a commoner against a noble, and so that is rather hard to explain IC.
Granted, I very rarely saw it done. Which is how it should be. It is codedly possible, but I think there are certain 'kinks' in it that are much harder to solve.
Quote from: HavokBlue on March 15, 2015, 03:27:32 PM
There is, to my knowledge, no functional way to allow crimcode immunity to multiple clans and as much as people ask for it, I don't think it's the sort of thing that's going to be implemented.
I'm trying to brainstorm other solutions to the status quo problem and will post any I come up with.
Hi, I wonder what you have in mind.
For instance, if there were a commoner PC acting against the docs and ignoring the virtual world and treating your noble like a chum or a piece of poop or whatever, and there are no PCs around to put that PC in its place, you could just give subtle clues through an emote that reminds them that you are, indeed, to be bowed to, and if that still doesn't work, just exit the scene (maybe with a little ooc) and fire off a player complaint, depending on if they are a total newb or not.
Or maybe that's not the scenario you have in mind.
Quote from: HavokBlue on March 15, 2015, 03:27:32 PM
There is, to my knowledge, no functional way to allow crimcode immunity to multiple clans and as much as people ask for it, I don't think it's the sort of thing that's going to be implemented.
I'm trying to brainstorm other solutions to the status quo problem and will post any I come up with.
You can give people !crim based on their current clan, but it is -not- very recommended. !crim is a really big privledge, all things considered. Even for nobles... suddenly they can do a whole host of things not just "hitting people" without crime being reported.
I think thats one of the big problems. In the past, even my Militia/Legion PCs have to wish up and have !crim removed before they do something outside the eyes of the law.
Quote from: Riev on March 15, 2015, 04:25:38 PM
Quote from: HavokBlue on March 15, 2015, 03:27:32 PM
There is, to my knowledge, no functional way to allow crimcode immunity to multiple clans and as much as people ask for it, I don't think it's the sort of thing that's going to be implemented.
I'm trying to brainstorm other solutions to the status quo problem and will post any I come up with.
You can give people !crim based on their current clan, but it is -not- very recommended. !crim is a really big privledge, all things considered. Even for nobles... suddenly they can do a whole host of things not just "hitting people" without crime being reported.
I think thats one of the big problems. In the past, even my Militia/Legion PCs have to wish up and have !crim removed before they do something outside the eyes of the law.
This is why I suggested some new thing. A special exclusive subdue/toss that doesn't toggle the crim code or toggle combat on. Just for nobles and their NPC guards, templars and the PC soldiers above recruit rank. Could even make it so that it doesn't work for half-giants, if you worry about accidentally killing a PC that you merely wanted to throw out of the bar. It would be stronger than the regular subdue, to make it harder to resist if you have your nosave subdue toggled the wrong way. And the toss would only allow someone to be sent 1 room away.
Nothing is more frustrating, to me, than watching a scene or being part of a scene, in which Joe Grebber shows up and starts mouthing off to a noble, and there's nothing the noble can do about it other than say pretty please go away, or engage in coded combat.
I'd honestly like to see Noble Guards get the flag to allow subdue/arrest. The noble can order them to keep that dirty commoner away from them, if they "resist" the subdue, well... clearly that person is an IMMEDIATE threat to the noble's security, and would need to be under arrest from nearby soldiers anyways.
Then the noble basically can just order the guard to throw them out of the bar. Kind of gets rid of the "nobles have no crime code", gives them a way to deal with potentially inflammatory troll-grebbers, and anyone that would abuse "guards subduing people" would probably get found out MUCH quicker than "hahaha my noble can do whatever he wants around the city and never get caught".
Rather than be eloquent, I'm going to brass tax my view in a list of things I believe matter.
Nobility must be crim code immune.
Nobility must be able to hire muscle(all houses), and in some cases, certain tiers of these stooges should be crim code immune but certainly not pc soldier/templar immune. (I'm looking at you, Tor, Borsail, and Winrothol).
Nobility must be able to flex fiscal and social power on a whim - but this is a can of worms. Commoners should rarely touch the monetary range of a noble(or GMH rep), unless they are working on becoming socially elite themselves. Dirtbags should make next to no money when they do their dirtbag, unclanned, unimportant work: NPC vendors should cut drastically their offers for non clanned, or peon ranked PCs. Gouging by PC's at taste, of course. Food and water should be stay at costs they are, or even go up a bit, while accessible money goes way down. Merchant Houses should sell the dregs to the dregs. This is necessary because money and associative status then becomes a big motivation for the throngs.
There needs to be resources to fight over internally (same city) and externally(differing cities). Winning and loosing them should impact.
No new noble should have the power to unleash Armageddon right out of the gate. But if they get the ball rolling, the possibility to have agency in world changing events of a range of scales(and failure in them, of course) can and should exist for nobility and the Templarate.
This will create a much better 'air' about nobility in the game. In short, the gap is too narrow between Fancy McFalePants and Joe Dirt. Widen the gap, widen it a lot.
Quote from: Kryos on March 16, 2015, 08:04:33 AM
Rather than be eloquent, I'm going to brass tax my view in a list of things I believe matter.
Nobility must be crim code immune.
Nobility must be able to hire muscle(all houses), and in some cases, certain tiers of these stooges should be crim code immune but certainly not pc soldier/templar immune. (I'm looking at you, Tor, Borsail, and Winrothol).
Nobility must be able to flex fiscal and social power on a whim - but this is a can of worms. Commoners should rarely touch the monetary range of a noble(or GMH rep), unless they are working on becoming socially elite themselves. Dirtbags should make next to no money when they do their dirtbag, unclanned, unimportant work: NPC vendors should cut drastically their offers for non clanned, or peon ranked PCs. Gouging by PC's at taste, of course. Food and water should be stay at costs they are, or even go up a bit, while accessible money goes way down. Merchant Houses should sell the dregs to the dregs. This is necessary because money and associative status then becomes a big motivation for the throngs.
There needs to be resources to fight over internally (same city) and externally(differing cities). Winning and loosing them should impact.
No new noble should have the power to unleash Armageddon right out of the gate. But if they get the ball rolling, the possibility to have agency in world changing events of a range of scales(and failure in them, of course) can and should exist for nobility and the Templarate.
This will create a much better 'air' about nobility in the game. In short, the gap is too narrow between Fancy McFalePants and Joe Dirt. Widen the gap, widen it a lot.
I'm sure if you know the game better, you have ample reason to think that. It is hard enough to survive if you do not.
I'm not very sure what you people are so afraid of where 'abuse' is concerned re: crimcode. Firstly, any cautious noble can go ahead and go through a vetting process for the people they'd hire just to see they're not complete idiots. Secondly, crimcode immunity abuse is annoying, but can be dealt with ICly nicely. If some bastardly idiot makes a habit out of messing with people, his employer is probably going to look bad enough that they'd be the first to tell them off.
Kyros' suggestions are good, but actually there just needs to be more crappy food for crappy commoners.
Bowls of gruel and questionable stews, semi-rancid dried meat, several variations on flatbread and travel cakes, etc etc etc.
As for hiring muscle - eh - you can, you just can't have them officially clanned. I think that's fine. Not completely ideal, but fine.
Mostly I think people could stand to remember that nobles are better than commoners are, no matter what that commoner has done, been through, etc.
We just need more people setting good examples and guarding against that temptation to break convention.
I don't think nobles need to be crimcode-immune, and I certainly don't think house employees should be. There are plenty of ways to murder someone despite crimcode. Even in Allanak you should desire more tact than having employees in uniform shank someone on the street.
That said, I wouldn't mind brawl code extended beyond taverns, especially if it was intelligent enough to make some judgments about social status.
While there have been changes to clan structure (the infamous glass ceiling), I'm not sure it really reduced plot opportunities by that much. Most of the time when a PC noble got promoted to senior back in the day, it seemed like it was AFTER they'd accomplished something significant.
The problem with crim-code immunity isn't so much about player trust as it is the coded glitches that could happen if used mistakenly. For example, if one person is crimcode immune and the other isn't, then when either attacks the other, the character who is not crim-code immune will get insta-ganked by any npc soldier that's around. I'm not sure if that's exactly what happens IG, but bugs like this would be very serious and would need to get worked out.
I agree that a tier before complete immunity might be nice, such as implementing the brawl code at a certain level, except you can perhaps knock the person out if they stick around too long. If a guard is protecting their noble, then you should be able to protect your charge from anyone attempting to do this also. All of this gets pretty complicated though when you have to think about what it takes to work out the kinks.
In the past, my guards just...got crimcoded.
Killed those fuckers anyway, or sent him scrambling for his life. The noble I was doing it for got me out promptly. Not sure crimcode immunity is as essential as it's being made to sound, but it certainly...changes a lot of dynamics. Assuming nobles have PC guards again.
Here is how crimcode immunity works:
Guy without immunity attacks anyone: NPC SOLDIER SMASH!
Guy with immunity attacks NEARLY anyone (looking at Templars): NPC soldier turn blind eye
Guy without immunity is attacked by guy with immunity: Depends. If the guy without immunity has nosave combat, he will not retaliate and the soldiers won't fucking care. If guy without immunity does NOT have that in, the NPC soldiers will promptly smash his face into the dirt.
Why not just make an entirely new flag for the crimcode?
One that lets you punch people in the face or subdue them, then give that to the Aides or lackeys or whatever. Anything beyond that: drawing weapons, stealing, killing; still flags the usual crimcode.
Or, expand brawl code to allow weapons. Allow brawl code in every room. After a certain health when brawl tells you to stop, if you kill , crime code kicks in as per usual.
I really like that idea.
Why would you want to implement this for nobles? Nobles shouldn't be getting into street-fights, or bar brawls. The idea of a new aspect of the crimcode, is basically what I had suggested in the first place. The one that lets nobles and their guards and higher-ranking employees toss someone either out of the bar, or out of their noble's way, without having to deal with the crimcode at all. Not a fight, not a punch, or a hit, or weapons. Just a simple grab and toss.
Quote from: Lizzie on March 16, 2015, 09:33:52 PM
Why would you want to implement this for nobles? Nobles shouldn't be getting into street-fights, or bar brawls. The idea of a new aspect of the crimcode, is basically what I had suggested in the first place. The one that lets nobles and their guards and higher-ranking employees toss someone either out of the bar, or out of their noble's way, without having to deal with the crimcode at all. Not a fight, not a punch, or a hit, or weapons. Just a simple grab and toss.
What about just kitting noble players out with some fairly simple scripts:
> noble eject elf
You motion to the handsome elf, who is swiftly escorted from the premises.
[25% chance for the target that he incurs some HP loss due to the guards manhandling him]
Then some other stuff like (jus spitballing here):
> noble arena
You send a psionic message over the Way requesting the arena status.
A foreign presence contacts your mind.
A scruffy errand boy sends you a telepathic message:
"No fights in the arena at the moment, m'lord!"
> noble weather
You send a psionic message over the Way requesting the weather outside.
A foreign presence contacts your mind.
A wild-haired errand boy sends you a telepathic message:
"The weather outside the city is calm, m'lord."
> noble withdraw 200
You send a psionic message over the Way requesting a withdrawal.
A stout errand boy approaches <noble> and delivers a coin pouch.
The noble wouldn't get in some street brawl. But their employees might, on their behalf.
The feud between Houses always made me think of Capulet vs Montague but never played out that way.
A soldier -could- intervene. But wouldn't need to. If one of the participants were affiliated, say, and the other guy was some Rinther.
With subdue also, you could have crime code kick in if you hold someone in a firm grip. Right now it kicks in if you even attempt. I think it should only kick in if you succeed, someone attempts to flee, and they succeed.
Are you saying that noble's Aides should slug it out and subdue each other, or that they should open the combat sections of certain noble houses to facilitate that?
Quote from: CodeMaster on March 16, 2015, 10:14:30 PM
Quote from: Lizzie on March 16, 2015, 09:33:52 PM
Why would you want to implement this for nobles? Nobles shouldn't be getting into street-fights, or bar brawls. The idea of a new aspect of the crimcode, is basically what I had suggested in the first place. The one that lets nobles and their guards and higher-ranking employees toss someone either out of the bar, or out of their noble's way, without having to deal with the crimcode at all. Not a fight, not a punch, or a hit, or weapons. Just a simple grab and toss.
What about just kitting noble players out with some fairly simple scripts:
> noble eject elf
You motion to the handsome elf, who is swiftly escorted from the premises.
[25% chance for the target that he incurs some HP loss due to the guards manhandling him]
Then some other stuff like (jus spitballing here):
> noble arena
You send a psionic message over the Way requesting the arena status.
A foreign presence contacts your mind.
A scruffy errand boy sends you a telepathic message:
"No fights in the arena at the moment, m'lord!"
> noble weather
You send a psionic message over the Way requesting the weather outside.
A foreign presence contacts your mind.
A wild-haired errand boy sends you a telepathic message:
"The weather outside the city is calm, m'lord."
> noble withdraw 200
You send a psionic message over the Way requesting a withdrawal.
A stout errand boy approaches <noble> and delivers a coin pouch.
That looks really awesome, and should probably apply to templars, too, do you think? Since they'd both feasibly have a gossip/info network in their clans and ranks to provide such basic but good flavor information.
Quote from: MeTekillot on March 16, 2015, 11:19:41 PM
Are you saying that noble's Aides should slug it out and subdue each other, or that they should open the combat sections of certain noble houses to facilitate that?
Actually, I fully support noble Aide slap fights and am now actively campaigning against opening up the combat clans of Noble houses.
I'm saying that yes -- Affiliated people should be able to brawl throughout the city. PC soldiers should be able to break up those fights, or 'incriminate' people who resist and don't go their separate ways.
There are a lot of restrictions in place for crime-code that I don't think match the maturity of most people IG. It is a privilege that should be taken away if people abuse it, but what kind of law enforcement beat cop can't arrest people? Or threaten to, in order to get information?
Likewise -- If there aren't any soldier NPCs around, why should all the soldiers automatically know or care about a street-brawl?
Just things to think about.
While I fully support a hypothetical change to the way crimcode affects nobles and their guards, I don't think being able to beat someone down with your pimp hand because they disrespected you fully addresses the problems outlined on the first page, namely that sometimes as a noble it feels like you are redundant and irrelevant before templars.
Before Templars AND indie merchants.
Allowing nobles to hire and clan two PCs, be it aide types, spies, merchants or thugs/militants would go a long way in letting them spread their power. It might be sub optimal for the hirelings not having a full unit to support them, but that should be clear during the hiring. It can also be temporary, even if the job comes with clan amenities. Nobles can fire anyone they don't need any longer.
"You'll be one of my bodyguards and enforcers, but won't be mixed with the rest of the house guard."
"You're my personal tailor and fashion advisor. You'll be making my wardrobe and making me appear better than everyone else, but youre not an aide. Once you get good enough I might try and plant you in Kadius as a spy."
"You're my "flower arranger"...when you aren't murdering my enemies after seducing them to sleep with you."
Shit like that seems very nobleish, but with limited hiring caps it makes it hard.
...Are nobles actually prevented from hiring combat employees?... Just because the House guard division is not open to PCs doesn't mean you can't hire a Bron to your Tyrion.
Quote from: HavokBlue on March 17, 2015, 03:10:59 AM
...Are nobles actually prevented from hiring combat employees?... Just because the House guard division is not open to PCs doesn't mean you can't hire a Bron to your Tyrion.
You can't clan them as far as I know. Most of what a noble has to offer is the amenities and social status of being clanned, without that there isn't much of an incentive to join up.
I don't think your clan staff are going to tell you to fire your aide when it turns out he's subguild_aggressor instead of subguild_house_servant
Nobles are allowed to hire two employees. Those employees can be any guild. They can't be part of the house's actual guard/soldier structure because those portions of the clans aren't currently open for play, but there's nothing stopping them from being warriors or assassins or whatever else.
Hypothetically COULD that hired PCs extra job be to bodyguard while around the noble, in conjunction with his NPC bodyguard?
Quote from: Saellyn on March 17, 2015, 11:39:46 AM
Hypothetically COULD that hired PCs extra job be to bodyguard while around the noble, in conjunction with his NPC bodyguard?
Not sure about the south, but in the north it's showing a weakness if you walk around with two guards. It's basically saying that you don't trust that someone isn't going to try and kill you, so instead of just using the one guard you're surrounding yourself with commoner/slave flesh like a coward. I mean, there's more to it than that, and exceptions, but I wouldn't suggest walking around with multiple guards if you want a good political backing.
Quote from: Saellyn on March 17, 2015, 11:39:46 AM
Hypothetically COULD that hired PCs extra job be to bodyguard while around the noble, in conjunction with his NPC bodyguard?
This is acceptable for them to function like bodyguards sometimes but for staff's sanity you're supposed to use them like "aides".
One of the big reasons we allow nobles to have NPC bodyguards (and have code in place to allow noble PCs to 'animate' their own guards) is because bodyguarding is boring. If you want to use your aide in that manner, I don't imagine it would be a problem from our end, but you may have trouble keeping the player interested in the role.
Quote from: bcw81 on March 17, 2015, 12:19:30 PM
Quote from: Saellyn on March 17, 2015, 11:39:46 AM
Hypothetically COULD that hired PCs extra job be to bodyguard while around the noble, in conjunction with his NPC bodyguard?
Not sure about the south, but in the north it's showing a weakness if you walk around with two guards. It's basically saying that you don't trust that someone isn't going to try and kill you, so instead of just using the one guard you're surrounding yourself with commoner/slave flesh like a coward. I mean, there's more to it than that, and exceptions, but I wouldn't suggest walking around with multiple guards if you want a good political backing.
This is documented?
Quote from: Riev on March 17, 2015, 01:11:44 PM
Quote from: bcw81 on March 17, 2015, 12:19:30 PM
Quote from: Saellyn on March 17, 2015, 11:39:46 AM
Hypothetically COULD that hired PCs extra job be to bodyguard while around the noble, in conjunction with his NPC bodyguard?
Not sure about the south, but in the north it's showing a weakness if you walk around with two guards. It's basically saying that you don't trust that someone isn't going to try and kill you, so instead of just using the one guard you're surrounding yourself with commoner/slave flesh like a coward. I mean, there's more to it than that, and exceptions, but I wouldn't suggest walking around with multiple guards if you want a good political backing.
This is documented?
It was back in 2013 when I played a Dasari. Not sure if it is now.
Quote from: bcw81 on March 17, 2015, 01:14:42 PM
Quote from: Riev on March 17, 2015, 01:11:44 PM
Quote from: bcw81 on March 17, 2015, 12:19:30 PM
Quote from: Saellyn on March 17, 2015, 11:39:46 AM
Hypothetically COULD that hired PCs extra job be to bodyguard while around the noble, in conjunction with his NPC bodyguard?
Not sure about the south, but in the north it's showing a weakness if you walk around with two guards. It's basically saying that you don't trust that someone isn't going to try and kill you, so instead of just using the one guard you're surrounding yourself with commoner/slave flesh like a coward. I mean, there's more to it than that, and exceptions, but I wouldn't suggest walking around with multiple guards if you want a good political backing.
This is documented?
It was back in 2013 when I played a Dasari. Not sure if it is now.
Which is kind of the complete opposite in Allanak? But that's shown virtually. Just shows how two city-states could be different.
Nobles are going to find whatever reason they can to diss each other.
"He's carrying around two bodyguards? What a coward."
"He has no bodyguard at all! His House must be scraping from the bottom of the barrel."
Well let's say the noble wants to go somewhere and his Aide PC is there to learn how to politic from the noble, but also doubles as an extra hand in case things go wrong. That's what I'm saying. The PC Aide isn't JUST a bodyguard, but one of his duties would be acting as such while accompanying the Noble to places.
But that's acceptable so cool. Maybe I want to bodyguard a noble forevers. Or bodyguard his special aide.
Quote from: bcw81 on March 17, 2015, 12:19:30 PM
Quote from: Saellyn on March 17, 2015, 11:39:46 AM
Hypothetically COULD that hired PCs extra job be to bodyguard while around the noble, in conjunction with his NPC bodyguard?
Not sure about the south, but in the north it's showing a weakness if you walk around with two guards. It's basically saying that you don't trust that someone isn't going to try and kill you, so instead of just using the one guard you're surrounding yourself with commoner/slave flesh like a coward. I mean, there's more to it than that, and exceptions, but I wouldn't suggest walking around with multiple guards if you want a good political backing.
...one of the worst things I've read. People are worried about you being surrounded by commoner flesh while you're out and about...in public? This is...terrible.
More soldiers good. One of the first things that comes to mind for me, when I try to come up with something for nobles, is the ability to hire NPC henchmen, where others can't without a lot of red tape. Byn npc's, hunter npc's, whatever. Simple scripts. But the coding is out of hand, so I don't say it. But the above mentality is the exact opposite of logical for nobility, and yet another example of why the north bugs me. That is super-duper-obviously-contrived-for-no-reason.
There is no disagreement with me when it comes to some things in Tuluk being very much contrived for no reason whatsoever.
That said - I -really- love the Tulukie political atmosphere. It's not Allanak that is just in your face tyranny. I equate it more to Orlais from Dragon age. Everything has a nuanced reason for being there. Every single thing you do, don't do, say, or don't say means something if someone looks at it the right way. You can be ostentatious as you want and still hide a thousand different meanings in every tiny action.
So yes, Tuluk is not Allanak with the nobles walking around with a legion of Soldiers following them. Tuluk is a game of political intrigue and mistique where Allanak is a game of beat the commoner. Hiring people is by no means any more or less hard for a Tuluki noble than it is for an Allanaki noble. Hiring is -different-, but not in difficulty, just in the people you hire.
Opinion: Political intrigue is interesting in Allanak.
Quote from: Is Friday on March 17, 2015, 04:20:47 PM
Opinion: Political intrigue is interesting in Allanak.
Statement: I can't talk on Allanak, really, as I've never played anyone in that position in that city.
Opinion: I love Tuluk intrigue.
So...since I don't play northern power figures, BCW, would you say that you're in line with the thoughts of nobility and power that were gone over in this thread and others?
Or do you think things are fine as a whole?
Or do you think those things apply to the south, but that the north is working as intended?
i.e. Are these perceptions valid on a gamewide scale, or is that more focused on southern politics? Do you feel northern politics and power are intact and functioning properly?
Edited to add: Basically what I'm asking...do nobles feel powerful beyond documentation, to you? Is it something that people just have to roleplay along with (until they don't, when you're helpless), or do you think nobles in the north have all the ability to 'flex' that they would need to maintain real power?
Quote from: bcw81 on March 17, 2015, 04:28:05 PM
Quote from: Is Friday on March 17, 2015, 04:20:47 PM
Opinion: Political intrigue is interesting in Allanak.
Statement: I can't talk on Allanak, really, as I've never played anyone in that position in that city.
Opinion: I love Tuluk intrigue.
Really? 'cause I woulda figured mudsexing aides was right up your alley bruh.... 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
Quote from: Is Friday on March 17, 2015, 04:43:41 PM
Quote from: bcw81 on March 17, 2015, 04:28:05 PM
Quote from: Is Friday on March 17, 2015, 04:20:47 PM
Opinion: Political intrigue is interesting in Allanak.
Statement: I can't talk on Allanak, really, as I've never played anyone in that position in that city.
Opinion: I love Tuluk intrigue.
Really? 'cause I woulda figured mudsexing aides was right up your alley bruh.... 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
Is this what passes for political intrigue in Allanak?
Yes and no - on a player by player level it works well enough. If a PC noble goes around pissing off every other noble PC in the city, he's going to have a hard time getting anything done and he's generally going to look like a disgrace to the PC noble population. Which is good, and grand, and they're still above commoners and if they ask for a commoner to be killed, it's probably going to happen.
With all that said - I think nobles need more of a needed power in Tuluk. As it stands it seems like Noble A talks to Noble B about some minor thing and then Char Report A is sent in to hear that noble A needs 20,000 coins, then Noble A hears that a week later and send Char Report B in to hear that he's doing such and such with Noble B and... Point being, it's convoluted.
There should be a definite, immediate power to Tulukie nobles. Something that makes them - and not the staff handling their reports - needed. I think that is the -main- problem with what nobility I've seen. Dasari can go and study plants - but they can't say they learned anything until staff tell them what they see. Winrothol can sell slaves and beasts - but not until staff load them in. Kassigarh can give out loans - but they need to be approved by the head of house and written in triplicate first. Tenneshi can build things - but not until it goes through staff. Lyksae can... Uh... Not own warrior slaves?
And yeah, that's just a part of the game - you're always going to need staff approval on things. Especially in such positions of power. But there needs to be something the noble can do in their downtime, when they've already handled all staff responses. Yeah, that's partially up to the player, but I feel it's just harder to do just anything as a noble - at times.
I've only read a select few posts in this thread, really, so I can't go back and comment on everything - but one of the things that caught my attention was the comment of playing 'the antagonist noble' and how people would be buttmad over it. My suggestion there, as with literally any other thing in the game, is don't piss in your own cheerios. If you're a raider living in the south, you're better of raiding the north. If you're a merchant selling clothing in competition with Kadius, better not piss off Salarr and start selling weapons too. If you're a Winrothol Noble and you are going to need a new loan to buy more slaves, you'd better not piss off Kassigarh.
And yes, I do think nobles -still- make too little. They should be making 10k a week minimum, or something like that. Money shouldn't really ever be something a noble is -wanting- for.
Quote from: Molten Heart on March 17, 2015, 04:58:19 PM
Quote from: Is Friday on March 17, 2015, 04:43:41 PM
Quote from: bcw81 on March 17, 2015, 04:28:05 PM
Quote from: Is Friday on March 17, 2015, 04:20:47 PM
Opinion: Political intrigue is interesting in Allanak.
Statement: I can't talk on Allanak, really, as I've never played anyone in that position in that city.
Opinion: I love Tuluk intrigue.
Really? 'cause I woulda figured mudsexing aides was right up your alley bruh.... 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
Is this what passes for political intrigue in Allanak?
No, murdering them afterwards does however.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on March 17, 2015, 05:22:52 PM
Quote from: Molten Heart on March 17, 2015, 04:58:19 PM
Quote from: Is Friday on March 17, 2015, 04:43:41 PM
Quote from: bcw81 on March 17, 2015, 04:28:05 PM
Quote from: Is Friday on March 17, 2015, 04:20:47 PM
Opinion: Political intrigue is interesting in Allanak.
Statement: I can't talk on Allanak, really, as I've never played anyone in that position in that city.
Opinion: I love Tuluk intrigue.
Really? 'cause I woulda figured mudsexing aides was right up your alley bruh.... 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
Is this what passes for political intrigue in Allanak?
No, murdering them afterwards does however.
Interesting.
Quote from: bcw81 on March 17, 2015, 05:22:14 PM
I do think nobles -still- make too little. They should be making 10k a week minimum, or something like that. Money shouldn't really ever be something a noble is -wanting- for.
If this isn't already the case, the documents I've been reading are really... confusing. To say that you're supposed to be obsessively keeping up with fashions which are easily 2k per thing (pricing in the 1 store that sells stuff that looks like nobles would wear), as well as offering coins to people for things and whatever else they might want... that does indeed seem to be comparatively very little.
If it were up to me, this is how things would work with pc guards.
There would be a guard rank or clan. Nobles would promote their minion to guard while they were out and about. When the foray was over they would demote them. The crim code would apply in a more limited or not apply while that rank was held. (There would be something like a rebel command, so if you got separated and couldn't be demoted you could demote yourself.)
If you abused this power your karma would be docked and you would be unable to play a guard again. Other penalties might apply.
If you were a noble you would be responsible for your guards (short of deliberately bad or malicious play on their part, maybe even then if you could foresee the problem coming up.)
I'd love to see more interhouse tensions erupting in the streets. But the crimcode being what it is, maybe the alleys would be better.
I keep thinking of Romeo and Juliet.
Verona. A Public Place. Enter Sampson and Gregory, armed with swords and bucklers
sampson. Gregory, o' my word, we 'll not carry coals.
gregory. No, for then we should be colliers.
sampson. I mean, an we be in choler, we 'll draw.
gregory. Ay, while you live, draw your neck out o' the collar.
sampson. I strike quickly, being moved.
gregory. But thou art not quickly moved to strike.
sampson. A dog of the house of Montague moves me.
gregory. To move is to stir, and to be valiant is to stand; therefore, if thou art moved, thou runnest away.
sampson. A dog of that house shall move me to stand: I will take the wall of any man or maid of Montague's.
gregory. That shows thee a weak slave; for the weakest goes to the wall.
sampson. 'Tis true; and therefore women, being the weaker vessels, are ever thrust to the wall: therefore I will push Montague's men from the wall, and thrust his maids to the wall.
gregory. The quarrel is between our masters and us their men.
sampson. 'Tis all one, I will show myself a tyrant: when I have fought with the men, I will be cruel with the maids; I will cut off their heads.
gregory. The heads of the maids?
sampson. Ay, the heads of the maids, or their maiden-heads; take it in what sense thou wilt.
gregory. They must take it in sense that feel it.
sampson. Me they shall feel while I am able to stand; and 'tis known I am a pretty piece of flesh.
gregory. 'Tis well thou art not fish; if thou hadst, thou hadst been poor John. Draw thy tool; here comes two of the house of the Montagues.
Enter Abraham and Balthasar
sampson. My naked weapon is out; quarrel, I will back thee.
gregory. How! turn thy back and run?
sampson. Fear me not.
gregory. No, marry; I fear thee!
sampson. Let us take the law of our sides; let them begin.
gregory. I will frown as I pass by, and let them take it as they list.
sampson. Nay, as they dare. I will bite my thumb at them; which is a disgrace to them, if they bear it.
abraham. Do you bite your thumb at us, sir?
sampson. I do bite my thumb, sir.
abraham. Do you bite your thumb at us, sir?
sampson. (Aside to Gregory) Is the law of our side if I say ay?
gregory. (Aside to Sampson) No.
sampson. No, sir, I do not bite my thumb at you, sir; but I bite my thumb, sir.
gregory. Do you quarrel, sir?
abraham. Quarrel, sir! no, sir.
sampson. If you do, sir, I am for you: I serve as good a man as you.
abraham. No better.
sampson. Well, sir.
gregory. (Aside to Sampson) Say "better"; here comes one of my master's kinsmen.
sampson. Yes, better, sir.
abraham. You lie.
sampson. Draw, if you be men. Gregory, remember thy swashing blow. They fight
Quote from: bardlyone on March 17, 2015, 05:46:42 PM
Quote from: bcw81 on March 17, 2015, 05:22:14 PM
I do think nobles -still- make too little. They should be making 10k a week minimum, or something like that. Money shouldn't really ever be something a noble is -wanting- for.
If this isn't already the case, the documents I've been reading are really... confusing. To say that you're supposed to be obsessively keeping up with fashions which are easily 2k per thing (pricing in the 1 store that sells stuff that looks like nobles would wear), as well as offering coins to people for things and whatever else they might want... that does indeed seem to be comparatively very little.
From what I know, that is not currently the case. And yes, it's for that reason exactly that I think their income should increase. There should be absolutely no way a commoner could keep up with a noble in terms of income - even spam-salting.
But, that's only my two cents.
Quote from: bcw81 on March 17, 2015, 06:12:40 PM
Quote from: bardlyone on March 17, 2015, 05:46:42 PM
Quote from: bcw81 on March 17, 2015, 05:22:14 PM
I do think nobles -still- make too little. They should be making 10k a week minimum, or something like that. Money shouldn't really ever be something a noble is -wanting- for.
If this isn't already the case, the documents I've been reading are really... confusing. To say that you're supposed to be obsessively keeping up with fashions which are easily 2k per thing (pricing in the 1 store that sells stuff that looks like nobles would wear), as well as offering coins to people for things and whatever else they might want... that does indeed seem to be comparatively very little.
From what I know, that is not currently the case. And yes, it's for that reason exactly that I think their income should increase. There should be absolutely no way a commoner could keep up with a noble in terms of income - even spam-salting.
But, that's only my two cents.
I brought this up a http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49005.0.html and was told, in essence, and unless I've badly misunderstood what message people were trying to convey, that nobles should be relying on commoners to supplement their paltry stipends. I'm still not sure what's in it for a commoner though.
Quote from: Delusion on March 17, 2015, 06:17:43 PM
Quote from: bcw81 on March 17, 2015, 06:12:40 PM
Quote from: bardlyone on March 17, 2015, 05:46:42 PM
Quote from: bcw81 on March 17, 2015, 05:22:14 PM
I do think nobles -still- make too little. They should be making 10k a week minimum, or something like that. Money shouldn't really ever be something a noble is -wanting- for.
If this isn't already the case, the documents I've been reading are really... confusing. To say that you're supposed to be obsessively keeping up with fashions which are easily 2k per thing (pricing in the 1 store that sells stuff that looks like nobles would wear), as well as offering coins to people for things and whatever else they might want... that does indeed seem to be comparatively very little.
From what I know, that is not currently the case. And yes, it's for that reason exactly that I think their income should increase. There should be absolutely no way a commoner could keep up with a noble in terms of income - even spam-salting.
But, that's only my two cents.
I brought this up a http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49005.0.html and was told, in essence, and unless I've badly misunderstood what message people were trying to convey, that nobles should be relying on commoners to supplement their paltry stipends.
And that's true as well - but you really can't go around fining every commoner you come in contact with, and those you do fine shouldn't be fined for more than 100 - 200 coins unless they severely fucked up for both OOC and IC reasons. All that said and done, you should 100% suppliment your income with commoner peons. But that generally amounts to about 500 extra coins on a good month - which is basically nothing.
There's nothing in that thread about fining commoners. Nobles don't fine commoners. Templars fine commoners. Nobles can scam commoners, hire them, fire them, kill them, manipulate them. Nobles can sponsor commoner profit-making endeavors for a cut of the profit. Nobles /could/ try fining a commoner, but if the Templarate finds out that a noble is pretending to be the Law, things could get ugly. A noble could, however, charge a "visitation fee" if he really wanted to (like, 100 sids for the privilege of being in my noble presence at this tavern), but good luck getting that fee paid. You're also likely to end up at the tavern completely alone, once the rest of the commoner PCs find out that you charge a fee for the privilege.
Much as the idea pissed me off IRL, I had a Tuluki noble ask me to head into the nearest tavern to buy him some papers and spice. He gave me 200 coins, but the spice he asked for was 210 from the outset (numbers may be off). Luckily, I haggled down the merchant and used some of my own coin to buy him his stuff.
The noble then asked another PC noble "How much do you think spice and papers costs these days?" and they said about a small. So, suddenly, I was in debt to a noble for a small. Who am I to argue? I tell him no, and I'm disobeying the pure blooded highborn of the city. I say yes, and I don't have it, he owns me.
He didn't fine me, but he outright shook me down whether he knew it or not. However, going around "assuming" people owe you coins is likely to get people not interacting with you. Its a tough line.
Oh man. I don't know where to start with how many things are wrong with that.
"being ICly antagonistic and mean will make people not want to play with you"
???
Have the dozens of GDB posts over the years nipping at the heels of asshole "noobles" who give people a hard time about stuff not clued you in on that front?
Quote from: MeTekillot on March 17, 2015, 08:28:03 PM
Have the dozens of GDB posts over the years nipping at the heels of asshole "noobles" who give people a hard time about stuff not clued you in on that front?
There's a fine line.
I'm one of those "kill em all" players, but in actuality -- I seldom kill IG. I do play antagonists frequently, but killing everybody would get boring quickly.
Other players are "coddle them aides" players and prefer their porridge that way.
Another group of players is all "there's never a good reason to kill a PC!" which is a whole lot of nonsense but whatever.
Everybody wants to believe in their fantasyland perfect clan vision.
murder corruption betrayal
except when you are mean to my pc then i dont want to play with you
Quote from: HavokBlue on March 17, 2015, 09:36:41 PM
murder corruption betrayal
except when you are mean to my pc then i dont want to play with you
New favorite quote, pls don't suerino me.
But on a related note, I feel like some people react to hostility a bit too..hostile? This is a shitty world to live in from what I know. When someones a dick, you just go "Eh" and walk off.
Some people really enjoy playing around violent antagonistic people.
Some people think the person behind the PC is just some nerd on a power trip and refuse to cooperate. ::)
Personally, I think the world is often a little too nice. I wouldn't mind at all if nobles were more scary to deal with. That's not to say they should all be power-crazed lunatics, but just that they should have some teeth behind them.
I have never once lost the assumption that being rude to a noble will end in death. That part of the game world, at least, I tend to stick to very adamantly.
Quote from: Saellyn on March 17, 2015, 10:29:48 PM
I have never once lost the assumption that being rude to a noble will end in death. That part of the game world, at least, I tend to stick to very adamantly.
Luckily, this is still often the case, it just might not be immediate retribution.
I think Kankwhisper is on the money from another thread. Make nobles more useful... I'd like to see them hunted as GMH are for their goods. How to do that? Here's some quick ideas, keep in mind some of this may already be implemented, and prices are just examples. Also, while we have the system for trying to branch independent clans, maybe looking at a similar system for developing from plots of empty land could be possible, and very desirable for Tenneshi and Kassigarh. Tenneshi in building, and Kassigarh in taxes and insurance.
Dasari
- Dasari to me seems to be one of the houses that has a lot of coded support already, but it's never really done well in my eyes until recently. Maybe they need a poison that only they can
make and have the cure for? That can be rather scary though to think about. There's many crafts for healing cures and bandages and the like, maybe Dasari just need some better ones unique to them? As the GMH generally have better stuff than the common merchant, Dasari should have the best to offer when it comes to healing. Unfortunalely most of that expertise they are known for can only be provided through RP, and not coded support?
-Licensing for certain herbs and plants. You need to see a Dasari to gather a certain plant or herb, or even type of wood, otherwise expect a visit from a Templar if caught.
Tenneshi
- Standard pricing guidelines for projects.
*Small Building (1-2 Rooms) - 20000
*Medium Building (3-4 Rooms) - 40000
*Large Building (5-6 Rooms) 80000
Repairs/Refurb for above list is 1/2 of cost? I wish we had item morphing, it could be easy to create a no-take item that is something like "This home is well maintained", and after a tick of
a month, it would reduce to "This home is average in it's condition", then "This home is rundown." So on and so forth. I can see a potential increase in ass kissing for templars from independents who want to get trading companies going, but a similar system set up for Tenneshi could see them get some loving from PC's. This could also involve Kassigarh, as someone needs to settle the deed of ownership? There could be set prices for such as well.
-Tenneshi water is goood. While there are NPC tenneshi vendors selling water, would it be silly for the Tenneshi PC's to have a craft that allows them to produce water somehow that they can sell that is cleaner or at a discount compared to the NPC's?
Winrothol
- Hunting Licenses. Much like the Dasari idea for herbs/plants. It wouldn't be every animal, and the costs could change with the months and depending on demand from hunters if they are over hunting or not.
-Beast Crafts. How would you do it? This applies to Borsail as well. This system could use the ride skill, or a Tame /Taming.
You could use item tokens from a NPC House Quartermaster, or some of the food items could be made from certain foraged or bought foods by the actual PC's in the clan.
*a cheap supply of animal food - 400 +0 Ride/Tame Skill
*a moderate supply of animal food - 800 +10 Ride/Tame Skill
*a rich supply of animal food - 1500 +20 Ride/Tam Skill
Using the food, and the item baby silver inix, if you pass you get a item that is
A large silver inix (A winrothol specific mount, with slightly better stats than the inix you can buy from the stables). Since this new inix would be still an object, there'd be two options
now. Request for admin to load, which requests generally happen weekly, so would help to limit the time of these being mass produced if you have the coin to do it, or you could utilise the chip system/script, that is if you can create an object from a craft that has the sdesc of an inix, but is tagged as a chit, and then you just redeem to another NPC. That also begs the
question can the chit system script produce a mob and is it only for items. While it might take some work to set up, it does away with staff work later on.
-Other ideas instead of buying from NPC clan vendors for the animals/beasts is using the mining system. Have random mobs of inix, which you can only harvest from if you have specific
Borsail/Winrothol clan equipment wielded?
-Slaves. Hm. Since there's been no PC slaves, the business has sorta vanished, and it relies a lot upon the staff to build NPC's, otherwise it doesn't happen. Maybe a timed rolecall for a slave PC could be utilised every RL month or something similar? Maybe they do escape after help or heaps of planning? Then you've got the opportunity to capture escaped slaves.
Kassigarh
- This is a tough one as it seems most of the time getting money can be rather easy. Should Kassigarh be giving out trading licenses and not the Templarate? Kassigarh have the money. I
don't know exactly how much Templars get paid, but should it be practically nothing? They are Surif, but they've been forced to sacrifice that life.. If they still desire nice stuff, use the nobility then, or better yet, utilise Kassigarh? Apart from insurance and having formats for documents the nobility might like to utilise ready on hand, how often do they really get to provide seed money for ventures? There's only two possible ventures that can be actual clans in each city atm. Anyone have further ideas for Kassigarh?
The noble houses have had work done and it's been great for actual jobs to do and being useful, but I think it can be expanded on, and needs some more focuse. While the views on the GDB doesn't include everyone, it does seem like the noble houses are suffering with employees? Should PC's be fighting to get into these positions? Why should they fight to get into these positions? Is unique, special gear enough? Does that even matter? I think it does in a way, but people want to be able to act when they want, so being independant has it's perks because you don't have anyone to answer too. Does that mean the templars and nobles should be more mean to these independants so to show what it's like to be in a position in society when you are nothing? That has a downside as you might not get anyone interested in your clan then, cause your seen as a dick.
Nobles do get power from wealth, but it's virtual, and they need to spend a lot of it and put in the effort. Minions are power. I like and hate the partisan system. I'd prefer to have a full
clan of like 6 PC's, than have temps. 2 aides, and about 4-5 pc muscle, that way you can attempt to do stuff in force and it's much safer, and if you loose 1 PC, it's not clan ending for months on end. Have noble clans gone down hill since the guard/special units have been removed? To me, they seemed more popular when these clans were in game, but the Legion has had an increase in numbers since they were closed, as has the Byn. Most of the time I don't want to be the partisan to Tenneshi as a craftsman or aide, I want to be the Sweeper! I want to be the Cavalier! I want to be whatever Kassigarh had ;) I especially wanted to be a Wyvern too, and I'd love to be the Scorpion. There's so many roles I would have liked to have played, but never will get the chance.
Something along the lines of special rewards for life sworn in Surif houses might be the way to go. Something you can't get in GMH or anywhere else. Apart from RP, what do people love?
Tattoos. Unique gear/weapons/clothing/trophies. Skills (Hard to judge if suitable as one can serve 10 years and be life sworn but still be not skilled, just clever or strong, etc.) Housing? (Though GMH family need to wait years before they can even have a private room). Mounts. If you can draw in the employees for the nobles, they will have their power.
I'm rambled long enough. Sorry!
Sorry to latch onto one idea out of Centurion's entire post, but for only certain clans to be able to harvest certain mounts has a real appeal to me. Though currently noble combat crews are closed, if this were in effect this might be relaxed and the Borsail acquiring crews could roam the known being particularly badass and taking mounts.
Tangentially, the first year I played I'd heard a story about a guy. He was clanned Borsail or Oash, I can't recall which now. He was messing around with a breed. His clannies brought them back to the compound and made him kill her for being a breed. That's why those noble clans were awesome. Sitting around with no direction (when there were were no breeds to kill) less awesome and the current make up is better. But if they had a tangible purpose they could be out hunting mounts when they weren't home making their stupid clannies kill their breed lovers.
And that's where we come back to the great thing about nobles with power, it infuses all the levels down with a flavor of the houses and makes not just noble play richer, but commoner play richer too.
I fully agree with Centurion on all the points.
Quote from: bcw81 on March 18, 2015, 03:22:48 PM
I fully agree with Centurion on all the points.
Same, Great ideas!
I'm less for making nobility useful in a mercantile sense (that's what the merchant houses are for, innit?) and more for making them useful in a political sense.
It would be cool if nobles could distribute get out of jail free tokens. If you have one on your person, you're let out of jail immediately with no questions and no consequences (with or without a templar PC's intervention). I guess this is possible in-game already, but it would be cool if it were standardized and maybe even reinforced with a bit of code.
Or if nobles could give out tokens which meant it was okay for you to walk around with your weapons out in public.
Or if nobles could give you a token that kept the gate guards from searching you when you entered the city. No more worrying about having spice planted on you.
Or if nobles could give you a token that let you rent apartments in a specific, high-security area without necessarily being clanned.
Those are way bigger incentives than even 1000 coins, and it would be cool if having a noble 'vouch' for you led to these really clear benefits.
When the Qynar system existed in Tuluk, I thought it would be fun and interesting if the Governor of a given Qynar or Striasiri was the legal arbiter of disputes among commoners that take place within the Governor's geographic/economic area. If done right, it could lead to all sorts of opportunities for interaction as well as corruption not just when it comes to hearing and arbitrating the disputes, but also when it comes to making and breaking the Governors. In my head, I pictured the various scenes from aSoIaF where commoners come to their leige lord or Hand or King or Queen to plead for X, Y, or Z.
Quote from: Red Ranger on March 19, 2015, 08:55:46 AM
When the Qynar system existed in Tuluk, I thought it would be fun and interesting if the Governor of a given Qynar or Striasiri was the legal arbiter of disputes among commoners that take place within the Governor's geographic/economic area. If done right, it could lead to all sorts of opportunities for interaction as well as corruption not just when it comes to hearing and arbitrating the disputes, but also when it comes to making and breaking the Governors. In my head, I pictured the various scenes from aSoIaF where commoners come to their leige lord or Hand or King or Queen to plead for X, Y, or Z.
Except that the Templars are the Judge/Jury/Executioner. The best a Noble could be is an Attorney, or more likely the political figure influencing the Judge.
Quote from: Semper on March 19, 2015, 11:20:04 AM
Except that the Templars are the Judge/Jury/Executioner. The best a Noble could be is an Attorney, or more likely the political figure influencing the Judge.
What I'm explicitly proposing is that Templars stop being the only Judge/Jury, by definition. It's certainly possible to argue that allowing such "judicial" influence to go to Chosen Governors is a bad idea IC'ly or OOC'ly, though. Of course, my suggestion is moot anyway because the Qynar system was abolished.
I wouldn't mind seeing nobles have the coded ability to "Crim Flag" someone, but nothing else.
They can't openly attack someone. They can't let their guards attack someone. They can't hold murder sessions in the street on a whim.
They can however look over at "Soldier A" and say, "This ragamuffin has offended me! Drag him to the jails at once!".
I like this idea, because 99 out of 100 times if the soldier was a PC soldier, they would comply immediately and do just that.
This might need to wait until after the crim code gets a new system in place so that soldier NPC's are less "instant death" and will only attempt to "arrest" instead of "ARRESTKILLDEAD"!
Offend a noble or otherwise displease one? He will have you drug off to jail and let the templarate deal with your stupidity. (Not instantly killed.)
I think some of the suggestions in this thread are swinging the pendulum too far. In some situations, nobles aren't as powerful as they probably should be. They're wealthy, influential people, but they aren't militia captains or members of the Templarate. If you piss a noble off, you might not see the consequences of that immediately, but those consequences will come.
Honestly, I don't see a massive problem with this in-game. Generally, nobles get respected as the documentation says they should. The rare anarchists out there who don't behave that way don't tend to live long, or they're living as hunted men or women.
Militia captains don't have anywhere near the social status of even a junior noble of the lowest ranked House, I don't think.
Actually I think militia captain is about the point where a common soldier might, essentially, be more important than a junior noble.
It's less about his own merit, though, than the fact that he probably reports personally to a Red-robe on a regular basis, or at least the most senior of Blue.
Quote from: MeTekillot on March 20, 2015, 02:55:29 PM
Militia captains don't have anywhere near the social status of even a junior noble of the lowest ranked House, I don't think.
Of course not, wasn't implying a militia captain was higher up the social ladder, only their job affords them police powers where a noble's does not.
Who is more powerful, a local congressman or a Police Sergeant? I think we'd all agree the Congressman is substantially more powerful. However, put both of these people in a bar somewhere, and some drunken lout comes up and causes a disturbance. The Sergeant can arrest the drunk on the spot. The Congressman could not.
Of course, if the Congressman wanted the man arrested, I'd be willing to wager hefty odds that the Sergeant would make the arrest. Either because the Sergeant wants to kiss up to someone as powerful as the Congressman, or because if the Congressman wanted they could make a few calls and probably get that Sergeant fired, fined, or at least in really deep shit with their superiors.
Of course modern society isn't exactly Zalanthas...but the same essential principles are at play in my opinion.
I mean, in Zalanthas, that Senator could walk up and literally murder that lout with absolutely no consequence. Or have one of their people do it. Virtually, anyway.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on March 20, 2015, 03:12:35 PM
Actually I think militia captain is about the point where a common soldier might, essentially, be more important than a junior noble.
It's less about his own merit, though, than the fact that he probably reports personally to a Red-robe on a regular basis, or at least the most senior of Blue.
More important in different ways. Command more raw power...probably, yes. Politically speaking though, they're not on the same level.
Politically speaking, a captain is probably higher.
wut
http://old.armageddon.org/general/ranktable.html (http://old.armageddon.org/general/ranktable.html)
The documented way of it. Not sure what's being shown in game.
Note that some of the tiers have changed.
A captain commands an order of magnitude more people than a junior noble.
A captain probably commands a lot more money than a junior noble.
If a captain tells a soldier to arrest someone, there's far less likely to be any hesitation, let alone disobedience.
If a captain asks for more money or for laws to be changed, he's probably given more serious consideration than a junior noble.
There are probably fewer militia captains than junior nobles.
Captain is above the glass ceiling.
Junior noble is below it.
PRE-EDIT:
Yeah, I know about that table. It does say "Social Rankings" rather than political/power rankings. And, indeed, even a captain needs to bow to a junior noble and probably should be generally polite to them.
It's a great game we play, isn't it? Where things such as rank and power are fluid and subtle enough that simple 2D tables can't adequately express them.
Go play a Captain Moe, I'd love to roll a junior noble and crush you.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on March 20, 2015, 03:20:25 PM
Politically speaking, a captain is probably higher.
In a political death match, Captains on average would lose. They're not trained or equipped for politics. They're soldiers. They can't even read and write. Your average noble, whose born and bred as a political creature could dance circles around someone like that.
Politics is a devious game, and not having a signet ring on your finger means you're dealt half as many cards as those who do.
Honestly, I think the only commoner's who could challenge a junior noble in politics are Greater Merchant House members, or high ranking servants of a noble House that basically wield the authority of a Senior Noble by proxy.
I don't really know about that. Personal charisma counts for a lot, especially when it comes with the support of a well-trained military unit behind said captain. Military coups are totally a thing for a reason, and I'd expect them to be moreso in a tok-eat-tok world like Zalanthas. In addition, I would expect that one doesn't get appointed to anything above the current standard sergeant rank without some political savvy.
Indeed, but more importantly you don't need to be a political genius when your can get the ear of a Red.
Why would they jump over a Blue to a Red?
They wouldn't, they would go through the blue to try to get a meeting with the red if the blue couldn't solve the problem.
I'm not actually sure which a captain reports to, but even if it's a Blue, it'd be a very important one who can tell the captain "OK, if this noble is mucking with the legion, let's go talk to Papa Red."
Most Blues can request an audience with their Red, can't they? I mean, that's their direct superior isn't it?
Nobles also aren't supposed to muck with the legion, I don't think. A noble mucking with the legion is -basically- mucking with the Templarate, and let's be frank, there is no noble who has the rank or political clout to touch a Black Robe if they muck too much.
Quote from: aeglaeca on March 20, 2015, 03:43:12 PM
I don't really know about that. Personal charisma counts for a lot, especially when it comes with the support of a well-trained military unit behind said captain. Military coups are totally a thing for a reason, and I'd expect them to be moreso in a tok-eat-tok world like Zalanthas. In addition, I would expect that one doesn't get appointed to anything above the current standard sergeant rank without some political savvy.
In despotisms with sorceror kings, military coups aren't really feasible given IC reasons.
Except for Valusaurus, but it was less a coup and more of a "taking my ball and starting my own" sort of thing.
Quote from: MeTekillot on March 20, 2015, 03:48:47 PM
Most Blues can request an audience with their Red, can't they? I mean, that's their direct superior isn't it?
I actually don't think they can, even though indeed they're direct superiors.
Your military coup would involve a single black robe snapping his finger and vaporizing not only the leader of the coup, but everyone involved, and their families. Generations of lineage would be ended in a heartbeat.
So, to prevent that, people don't coup that far up the chain.
Quote from: aeglaeca on March 20, 2015, 03:43:12 PM
In addition, I would expect that one doesn't get appointed to anything above the current standard sergeant rank without some political savvy.
There is a world of difference between the political chops of a Sergeant and someone whose grown up in a noble family and been trained from birth to live as a political creature. Go take an illiterate police Sergeant from some third world country and drop them into Washington DC to play politics... See how quickly they survive.
That's a pretty tenuous analogy to a vastly different society. I've already given several concrete examples of how a ZALANTHAN militia captain exceeds a Zalanthan junior noble.
I also think you're overestimating the education and training a PC noble receives. I think being a junior noble PC is their political training.
Quote from: Saellyn on March 20, 2015, 03:57:00 PM
Your military coup would involve a single black robe snapping his finger and vaporizing not only the leader of the coup, but everyone involved, and their families. Generations of lineage would be ended in a heartbeat.
So, to prevent that, people don't coup that far up the chain.
They probably could, but that's about the equivalent of telling your supervisor at work that you can't handle little niggling details without direction. You could do that, but it's not going to make you look good, and if you do it enough you'll probably get... fired.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on March 20, 2015, 04:10:34 PM
That's a pretty tenuous analogy to a vastly different society. I've already given several concrete examples of how a ZALANTHAN militia captain exceeds a Zalanthan junior noble.
I also think you're overestimating the education and training a PC noble receives. I think being a junior noble PC is their political training.
I think this is a limitation of players. The players of a noble didn't grow up in the environment, and aren't going to necessarily be politicians. Not every junior noble PC is extremely interested in politics either...some are just dandies...
The good nobles I've played with (and there have been quite a few...) would eat that Captain alive, and in my opinion, they're more representative of the standard Zalanthian noble than your average noble PC. Would this be true in ALL cases? No, of course not. Some Captains are savvy politicians, bound to become Commanders or Generals someday, and versus a noble who isn't particularly gifted in politics they might win a round or two of the great game. In general though, which is to say, virtually speaking, your average Captain should be seriously outmatched by an average junior noble.
It could probably go both ways as these things are rarely black/white.
Isn't there a log in the submissions thread with a Jihaen going after a Bynner and having to kind of back down when the local Lieutenant shows up?
I guess I should have clarified I meant military coups with regard to real life and not in game-- especially considering that military coups aren't really necessary in Zalanthan politics considering how it's structured. :X (That said, if sorcerer kings were really that powerful and micromanaging, no one would ever have gotten the better of them! There are IC stories which imply otherwise. Not that I'm suggesting anyone try a military coup ICly, I'm just saying fighting the man shouldn't be considered impossible. Right? Right??? Disclaimer: I'm still basically a noob. And actually, now I kind of want to see it.)
I also did say above sergeant, not at the rank of. Sergeants running a small unit is one thing, someone running a reasonably large military organization is something else completely-- which isn't to say it's impossible that the position would be filled by someone with no political savvy, just that it's likely they shouldn't be underestimated or automatically designated to failure, and that their position comes with inherent weight relative to their history. Sergeants would be what I would call small time compared to a higher rank, but someone who made a notch above and is essentially running multiple units is playing on a different field completely.
In addition, it's not really third world illiteracy vs DC level politics-- and even if it was, it's not like the US hasn't been beaten more or less in these examples in foreign policy, and such things are also arguable for internal politics.. for... everyone, everywhere? ... which is a completely different conversation, I guess.
All I'm saying is, what it takes to hit leadership at that level in any type of organization shouldn't be discounted. Assuming junior nobles will win because they can read and were born into a political culture is overestimating things in general.
Well guess we just have to disagree. It doesn't matter much, really, since players aren't allowed to play captains.
Any commoner Captain who tries to play politics with a noble will probably have a Blue Robe (or several) immediately on his ass demanding to know why he's fucking around with politics when that's not his job. If the Blue doesn't just kill him outright. Commoner officers are expendable.
Quote from: aeglaeca on March 20, 2015, 04:32:02 PM
Assuming junior nobles will win because they can read and were born into a political culture is overestimating things in general.
I think you're missing the point and haven't grasped the Allanaki way of things. The city's culture is elitism. The nobility accounts for a very small percentage of the population (read: less than 1%). Slaves account for a majority of the occupants. The Senate is a corrupt organization run by the senior nobility which drafts up the laws and motions, sometimes working together with the various ministries run by the Templarate.
Yes, a noble will win. If only so that the dirty plebs don't realize that nobility are fallible, the noble's House will resolve the problem before shuffling that stupid noble out of the public eye.
Often we start a topic and go off on tangents and need new threads. Today I wish that Noble Power, Noble Wealth and External conflict were combined. I think we're all sort of talking about the same thing in all three.
I should say, to start that I have not played a southern noble in a while. And too, I should say that I would gladly play one, so when we look at the current state of affairs and think about what is missing and could be improved, I don't think there is blame assigned or a feeling that anyone has let us down.
Instead, I think what has happened is that as time went on and we tried to make fixes and adjustments for things like Arm 2 and then no Arm II that things moved along and the road led us here. There are so many good ideas in all three threads. But I don't think that to make the game perfect that every fix should be immediately adopted and that everything should change. I just think, and maybe I'm mistaken in thinking there is a consensus here, that it might be time for something to change.
When I say that there should be a more organic and fertile ground for plots, (and again I'm not saying that people haven't in the current climate done a good job with plots, but rather that it could be easier to keep momentum) I think that's where all the threads converge. Nobles having the power and money to more easily drive conflict. When we talk about external conflict and house alignments these are not conflicts that every noble has to adopt, some people will have brand new and exciting ideas outside of these lines, but to have these things in place makes it easier to have nobles drive plots out of the box.
The thing to remember about nobles and ranks regardless of that what plots they are or are not involved in, how charismatic they are or are not, is that they rule because the god king chose them. Someone may have promoted your captain to his current rank, but it wasn't a divine appointment and that carries weight.
^
You can be the highest ranking commoner in your respective military but your existence is inherently inferior to the lowest ranking junior noble of the lowest ranking noble house because he is highborn and you are not.
The vast majority of Zalanthans living in city states understand and accept this as a basic fact of life. It's not something they question or challenge. It's just accepted.
In the short term, I could see a Captain pulling a stunt that leaves a Junior Noble incapacitated, perhaps even dead, or many of their aides or friends dead/incapacitated.
That Captain will have a death wish though, and probably wouldn't last the night. Just because you have the capability of doing something doesn't mean it's healthy for you to do.
I've found that Red Robes are 'far above it all' when it comes to petty squabbling. To even hear the word 'commoner' is so beneath them that they would probably rarely think of lifting a pinky to intervene on their behalf, not to mention a Noble or a Blue Robe. Same with a High Templar in Tuluk, really, at the end of the day.
I don't think that just because a Captain reports to a Red Robe (Though probably through a blue robe) that they have anything beyond Martial Law Emergency Procedure on their side. They could, effectively, help facilitate the plots of another Junior Noble, perhaps, under the guise of some city-wide emergency that grants access to their Estates, or other such massive military coup procedure, but if they plan on living through the night, they would do well to have friends in high places.
Basically, Nobles has more staying power than any Commoner. They can get away with more, get their hands dirty, and even get caught for it and not get their head cut off. They can get fined, or demoted, or flunked around until they fuck up so bad that they get the axe. I think that's a major difference between the two.
The notion that all commoners are discardable and easily replaceable is not an accurate picture. Why would you scrap your prize-winning greyhound, after putting in years and many dollars to train it to perfection? Or perhaps a better example for the military, the police go through strenuous hours and resources to properly train a good police dog who can be relied on when the shit hits the fan. It isn't quite so easy to just discard that animal, and you might even feel attachment to it (or at least the superior who has been working with that dog). In this kind of way, a Noble, even if they are above a commoner, won't just kill them or throw them away without at least getting something of equal worth back if possible. I'm pretty sure any rank in the militia above sergeant would require extensive training and some political backing to be promoted above the rest of the rabble. More than likely they might even be a bastard child of Nobility or some other relationship with a political leash.
I don't want to derail the thread too much, but the reality is that even though Sergeant and Lt ranks seem pretty high for us because of the ceiling limit imposed on us, the reality is that a Sergeant or even lt rank is absolutely nothing grand in the end.
First of all, not only are you MILITIA but you're also just a sergeant or lt among many other hundreds.
One of the grand illusion of Armageddon is that we're allowed to play roles that seem highly important to us because it's as high as a player can be but in the end, we're still left to play the nobodies of every part of society (junior this and junior that, lt this and sergeant that)
- Edited to replace Captain with LT, since we can't even play the captain rank.
Either city-state's militia isn't a meritocracy, and nobody makes it to captain because they're just so charismatic/skilled. A person might reach captain rank because their templar thinks they won't be a threat, or because they're a bastard noble and someone pulled strings, or because they had wealthy parents and got to stay in Tor for a long while, or because they have a templar aide's three babies and said templar figures that should be reason enough for loyalty.
With superpowers like Allanak or Tuluk, the state's own militia is more of a threat than external forces are. Promoting ambitious, charismatic, skilled people to be captains is likely to be more of a detriment than an asset for a city that barely ever sees war.
But hey, don't believe me. Believe the Korean government, (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_Sun-sin) who tortured the greatest admiral to have ever lived, the man who saved their very kingdom, for the sheer audacity of being popular with the masses for doing well.
Politically, nobles outclass captains with ease.