Noble Power

[Barzalene]

 In the sneaky noble thread, Armaddict talked about nobles at the start of the century and how they were different. (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48983.msg872455.html#msg872455) And Semper made some really cogent points about those differences. (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48983.msg872503.html#msg872503)

I think it's true there was more freedom. And it opened up the door for leaders to be amazing. People were able to take opportunities to be as awesome as they their imaginations let them be. There are PCs we still talk about today. Like Fatty Tor.  It also opened the door for silliness we still talk about and shake our heads. (And no, let's not list those things, because  there's no point and why hurt feelings.)

I think staff has found a really good balance in most things. I think the expectations are clearer. They are again involved in plotting. They gave us a war. The code is better than it ever was and communication works much better.

I'd like to talk about ways to let pc's again be more impactful. But just because I'd like to talk about it, doesn't mean we really need to. Is this a conversation worth having? If it is, how do open that door? The thing about the restrictions that people complain about that I really sympathize with is that if you give everyone the freedom to change the game world, eventually you don't have a recognizable and consistent world. Is there a better balance?

Disclaimer: I am in no way knocking anyone. I've seen really awesome stuff in game. I've seen really awesome leaders in game.

[MeTekillot]

Nobles aren't allowed (currently, anyway) to hire to fill out their combat clans. That leaves the only roles in Noble clans BESIDES the blood noble being Aides, or in Oash's case, mages. So you don't have to worry about Lord Borsail sending his Wyverns to rough you up in the sands, and maybe drag you in with their slave stock on a slaving run. Nobles don't have fighting dudes at their beck and call, in an official capacity. Now to beat someone up, a Noble has to go through two or three channels just to murder Joe Grebber.

Nobles don't have a lot of cash. Well, they have more cash than Amos the Merchant just out of chargen, but if he sits in his apartment and tailors for a game week, they don't anymore. Nobles are usually on a fixed income, unless they've got some dude or dudes paying them off for some reason and, let's be honest, why would you pay off a noble when you can pay off a Templar? Templars and soldiers are a noble's main source of flex power within the city. Maybe nobles used to make more money? Because if you're a noble and you want to assassinate and indie merchant, you're probably gonna have a bad time if that merchant has been at all conscious about making money. Perhaps you're lucky and they're either incompetent or playing a flavor role?

Nobles aren't immune to crimcode. Maybe some of them are and others aren't? But, there's no reason to be IMMINENTLY afraid of a noble. You can be latently scared that if you piss off Talia Borsail that, in a couple of RL days, she'll have gotten all her ducks in a row and let Lord Templar Fivesoldiers that she, virtually, is a member of one of the most powerful institutions in Allanak and he should probably murder that indie merchant no matter how much he has paid him off. Now Lord Templar Fivesoldiers doesn't have as much money, because Talia Borsail doesn't have much money and Merchant Braies is dead because his trousers got a little too high on his haunches. Knowing a noble can't imminently do anything to you without laboring to call in five soldiers and two Templar has a pretty castrating effect on their invulnerable high-power mystique.

[Riev]

I think the playerbase (as far as unique logins) has stayed relatively static the past few years, but I also think that as veterans leave the game, newbies have less to see as a "this is what is possible" model.

So far as nobles.... the few I've known have been pretty damned good and do attempt to have things "happen". Whether its digging for artifacts, being used as a tool in their political schemes, trying to raise/breed their own superbeasts.

The trouble, I think, is that a lot of Noble goals take so long, and must be kept so secret, that rarely do people really get so see it through. You might hear House Dasari is looking for still-living gortoks and paying a hefty price... but the player may never ever know what they were a part of. Necessarily so, but its hard to say "Look at how cool nobles are" when... there's really nothing to see.


If I'd change anything, it'd be for there to be more of a focus on nobles legit just calling their friend Tony Hardnose, the Blue because some commoner didn't bow the right way, or approached THEM instead of their guard. At least in 'Nak, I'd like to see a bit more "non-lethal" correction.

[HavokBlue]

I've noticed people just get incredibly assblasted in-game when they happen upon a 'mean' noble. Especially commoners. And then the noble seems powerless to do anything about it because he can stomp and shout all he wants but if he doesn't have PCs working for him to fuck people up, and no PCs want to help him, he's limited to crying to staff that the dirty commoners or whoever else are ignoring their social status.

[Lizzie]

What I'd like to see:
Nobles, and clanned employees of any rank higher than recruit would be able to subdue and throw anyone who is *not* clanned, as long as the employee is in the presence of the noble. That way, employees can't just go around subduing and throwing people around just because the code lets them (which would be as annoying as commoner grebbers mouthing off to nobles in bars just because the code prevents the noble from doing anything about it).

This would need to not result in autocombat or a crimflag, because no one is trying to attack anyone. Just a grab and toss, to throw someone out of a bar, or out of the way - these are things that -should- be within the rights of nobles to do, any time, for any reason, or no reason at all. They should be able to order their trusted (non-recruit) minions to do this on their behalf, in their presence.

So, I'd like to see that. I think it'd go a long way in reinforcing some of the power the nobility (and their trusted minions) has over the common unclanned rabble.

Could even extend it so if a clanned commoner of recruit rank mouths off to a noble, he's just as subject to being tossed as if he wasn't clanned at all.

[Barzalene]

I've always wanted politics fleshed out. Like for there to be a true participation in the process at the player level. (This may already be the case. I'm not in a position to know. But since I haven't seen it, I'm going to go ahead and mention in case it's not in place.) I'm not saying they should be at the top of the food chain and driving the politics. I'm saying they should be in the car though.

And I think the point about having some actual power is solid. Is there a way to let people carve that power out that isn't game breaking?

[HavokBlue]

To my knowledge, there is not currently a solution to allow nobles any exceptions to the crimcode and staff are not comfortable clanning nobles in their respective militias as a workaround.

I don't really know how to address the issue, because it's similar to the response people have to anything antagonistic in game, ie. putting a 3000 coin bounty on that pickpocket or sending three magickers to hunt that raider.

[Tetra]

The nobles that commanded real, genuine loyalty from their Aides/servants are the ones who treat them like they have value or inherent use.  It's fine to be mean, in my opinion, but ruling by fear denotes a lack of charisma.  You want your underlings to adore you, so that they feel compelled to see your plans and plots succeed.   Also, if you reward for performance, you _will_ get performance.

[Saellyn]

Not always true. Fear is an excellent motivator and ruling through fear does not mean lacking in charisma.

[Barzalene]

The nobles that commanded real, genuine loyalty from their Aides/servants are the ones who treat them like they have value or inherent use.  It's fine to be mean, in my opinion, but ruling by fear denotes a lack of charisma.  You want your underlings to adore you, so that they feel compelled to see your plans and plots succeed.   Also, if you reward for performance, you _will_ get performance.

Even if your underlings love you, you may want your enemy's underlings to fear you.

(Though I agree that it's more in my comfort zone to play minions to people who my pc's don't despise.)

[Tetra]

Not always true. Fear is an excellent motivator and ruling through fear does not mean lacking in charisma.

Fear is a motivator, but it doesn't inspire sincere loyalty, which was where I was going with that tangent.  If you can't be magnetic as well as imposing, you're only seeing half the coin.  

Also being a noble doesn't exempt you from appreciating your subordinates, giving praise where it is due, and generally making them feel like they have purpose(even if it's as a tool).

Even if your underlings love you, you may want your enemy's underlings to fear you.

(Though I agree that it's more in my comfort zone to play minions to people who my pc's don't despise.)

That's very true.  Because everyone knows you're better, simple for your caste, it's not really necessary to constantly shove it in people's faces.  You want them to worry about what you might do to them...A healthy anxiety.  But from observation, just putting on airs as a noble really breeds contempt and puts a big target on your back.  You want fear in your enemies, but a finessed fear.

[Semper]

I think Allanaki Nobles need more external conflict, and backing from The Powers That Be. In the current way things are, a Noble is pretty much one of the top players in a pyramid of PC characters. Thus, the only real way to get things going is through the limited powers that a minor Noble has. If the power from the top is limited, it's like squeezing a hose, and there's a trickle down effect that negatively impacts the amount and quality of plots further down.

A minor noble will never be able to impact the over-all power-scale in Allanak by themselves, and maaaybe if a bunch of minor nobles got together, plus a templar or two (which basically includes the cap of the PC nobility/templars allowed at a time), they could cause a ripple, but you won't see Houses falling or rising, or wars being won/lost.

Ultimately, you either need to increase the power of a minor Noble in impacting the virtual/coded political scene in Allanak, OR you need to have a background of political strife going on that can feed into the plots that a minor Noble/Templar can work with.

As an example, if Borsail can slip from their peg as the premier house because of what a PC noble can do, or you can directly influence the power of your House in the wider region, that kind of ripple effect would make it way more interesting for players to want to get involved, and then the number of minions and players on the field increase. Focus all the power and attention in Allanak, and you won't need to worry about players wandering off on their own, because they won't want to miss the action going on in the center.

[Semper]

Kind of a different topic, and I'm not sure if it'll be at all possible, but what if a Noble and their "party" had the backing of a Storyteller?

In each city-state, then, you could potentially have two or three "parties", and a bit of a rivalry between each party. All the plots and things generated with each party is run by the ST, similar to how a ST might be running a Clan, but no longer limited to Coded Clans but now to the wider impact of what their political party is doing.

(Using American Politics as an example, a ST would no longer just back "the state of Alaska", but would be backing "the Republican party". Then all the folks from around the nation who are "republican" are under this influence. This is purely as an example!!!)

[nauta]

Kind of a different topic, and I'm not sure if it'll be at all possible, but what if a Noble and their "party" had the backing of a Storyteller?

In each city-state, then, you could potentially have two or three "parties", and a bit of a rivalry between each party. All the plots and things generated with each party is run by the ST, similar to how a ST might be running a Clan, but no longer limited to Coded Clans but now to the wider impact of what their political party is doing.

(Using American Politics as an example, a ST would no longer just back "the state of Alaska", but would be backing "the Republican party". Then all the folks from around the nation who are "republican" are under this influence. This is purely as an example!!!)

I would love to see more politicking, and the few instances I've seen have been really awesome.  The big problem I've observed is the lack of PC (nobles/aides) to keep the plots going long enough.  (Hence, I'd love to see consolidation of maybe nobles into one city just for a bit just to see what politicalplay can come about when things are full and popping!)

[Barzalene]

I love the idea of houses having an agenda (I'm paraphrasing Semper here. Apologies if that wasn't his intention.) Maybe your noble has other agendas. Maybe your noble dies. There's still something going on so there is never a vacuum. And because in theory there are different agendas there is innate opportunity for meaningful conflict.

[HavokBlue]

On politicking: when I played a noble, any time I wanted to push an agenda or pull some sort of stunt, I would ask myself "If this were a Game of Thrones episode, would it be a good one?"

On money: I think, especially with last year's changes to noble income, money should not be a big issue anymore. If your House is on a lower tier, and your income is not enough on its own to do your think, your House will probably be willing to give you more for a project, and if not, you can always seek out people who do have money for loans or investments. However, having a little bit of money or a lot of money might mean you can afford to buy that new slave you want, or build that giant gilded dildo statue in the estate yard, but it is not a functional, in-game power to the degree that the docs imply it is. A lot of people simply don't care about money.

On power: The biggest issue I see, even more than things like uppity commoners, is the fact that regardless of what a noble says or does, a PC templar can override him at any point and there's nothing he can do about it except put it in a report.

[Incognito]

One of the main reasons nobles have less power - is that there are multiple noble houses - vying for dominance in each City-state. On the other hand, the templarate are a unified order and designated to be the peacekeepers with the power to kill on whim. Add to that their ability to command NPC guards.

In the olden days, from back when I started playing Arm, it used to be that the nobles were ranked above the templarate, and they were actually allowed to do anything without any consequences. I've seen many a noble smoking spice in Trader's Inn in Allanak, even when templars passed through. Back in those days, the general feeling was that a noble could actually just "tell" a templar to kill off a PC who had offended them, even without so much as dirtying their own hands - and it was implied that the templars in turn would comply with such "requests" as long as no harm came to any of the other noble houses.

Sadly, there has been a divergence in the templarate and nobility itself, off late. Since a few years, the templars act as if they don't need the nobles, and that the noble houses are there just to perform some perfunctory functions in the background of the game, while the templarate are the be-all and end-all as far as running the city-states goes. The nobles are in turn forced to compensate - appearing impotent at times even.

A noble should never have to resort to something like putting out a bounty from his/her personal funds, to take care of a nuisance. S/he should be able to just "ask" a templar to "help them out" and in turn the templar should "acquiesce", as long as the deed in question doesn't stem from inter-noble-house politicks.

Back in the 90s - nobles were like the mafia-kings - no one even spoke to them unless they had balls, or some real justification to do so. Most would just bow and shut up in the presence of nobles. Nowadays there's almost zero fear (both ICLY and OOCLY) for commoner PCs and even foreigner PCs and non-human PCs - coz they know - "hey, nobles can't do shit, they can't even touch us even if they wanted to...they're just rich PCs who use long words, talk a lot, and walk from taverns to their estates and basically don't do jack."

Ideally speaking, the noble PCs should have the maximum power in a City-State and the templarate should operate in tandem with the nobility, both groups aware that they need each other, and that their mutual existence and continued prosperity can only occur with each other's constant support. And, this "joint-understanding" needs to be displayed, demonstrated and conveyed to the PC and VNPC population.

I am not pointing fingers at any templars here, but just stating what is "felt" in game, these days, so please dont take it personally!

Currently - it's like a middle-eastern country in turmoil. The ruling class is still in place, and has all the titles and the money and the land and the oil drilling rights, but all the power rests with the military commanders and the secret service.

Armaddict's post about the lack of power for noble PCs is definitely something that needs to be reviewed.

Also, as MeTekillot pointed out - currently, noble PCs have hiring caps, which also makes things harder - especially for militarized houses.

[Down Under]

Agendas for House's would be great to have out of the gates. They don't even have to be THE plot, just a Side Plot for the House. They could be devised before the PC even enters the game.

House Oash? Your House in the midst of magical research that went awry and left your predecessor babbling incoherently and quietly executed by the House. What stone will you unturn?

House Borsail? 2-3 NPCs have escaped the Pens and are now residing in the Labyrinth. Track them down and kill them, or re-enslave them. Staff animates the NPCs whenever they feel like it, enhancing the flavor of both the Labyrinth, and Borsail and its constituents.

House Winrothol? The House has been investigating a new breed for a long time -- A full-blooded Giant, so large that they can pull an Argosy by themselves. All attempts at producing a live specimen have failed before. Will you succeed where others have failed?

House Kassigarh? A minor "House" has started in the Warrens, that is offering loan-sharking and moneylending that competes with Kassigarh's markets. You've been tasked with finding the ringleaders and stomping them out, or bringing them into the fold.

House Tenneshi? Someone's poisoned the water supply -- Several dozen laborers are sick and a few have died. Was it someone within the House? Or an enemy from without? You, minor Noble, must prove your worth and get to the bottom of it.

House Dasari? Artful assassination! Your cousin has been killed from a contract, and the sources can't be unveiled. However, a particular poison was used at the scene of the crime, one that you identified. Your House is tasking you to quietly discover who the Contractor was, as it wasn't a perfect contract, if a Dasari could discover the means of death.

[bynja turtle]

There is plenty of politicking going on. I think one of the more difficult problems we have as noble PCs is that it is ridiculously hard to codedly wage war against enemies in the city or outside it.

One of the opponents of fostering regular conflict is crim code. Minions do not have immunity from the crim code and neither do nobles. Should they? I guess not, because people might abuse it. Does crim code stifle most public displays of dominance? Yes. We're left with secret backdoor deals and waiting for the stars to align in order to kill low ranking employees or indies, most of the time.

Blackmail is codedly difficult.

Framing someone for a crime is codedly difficult.

edit:

The coded limitations are because DIKU, not really something that I think can easily be fixed.

[Semper]

How about you become crimcode immune if you are aligned with a Noble House. Then, the Templarate (and the AoD) really DO become the law-holders, because only they can deal with minions stepping outside of the boundary of public peace.

Boom, problem between Nobles and Templars solved. And pcs have waaay more incentive to join a Noble house because you are physically/socially threatened if you are independent or on "the fence" between two noble parties.

The city then is no longer "safe", but a practical warzone where the fragile peace its citizens feel is truly in the hands of the Templarate and the Noble Houses, and if you arent kissing ass to one of them, you may as well run outside the gates and risk the raiders and beasts.

(Mwaha I love this idea more and more.)

[Barzalene]

How about you become crimcode immune if you are aligned with a Noble House. Then, the Templarate really DO become the law-holders, because only they can deal with minions stepping outside of the boundary of public peace.

Boom, problem between Nobles and Templars solved. And pcs have waaay more incentive to join a Noble house because you are physically/socially threatened if you are independent or on "the fence" between two noble parties.

(Mwaha I love this idea more and more.)

I love this idea too, but sometimes you hire people you aren't completely sure of. They're new or they're naughty and you hope to get them on track. It's scary to give those people criminal immunity. It's even more scary to make noble clans so exclusive that new players can't join. How do we account for that in this idea?  Maybe rank?

[Semper]

How about you become crimcode immune if you are aligned with a Noble House. Then, the Templarate really DO become the law-holders, because only they can deal with minions stepping outside of the boundary of public peace.

Boom, problem between Nobles and Templars solved. And pcs have waaay more incentive to join a Noble house because you are physically/socially threatened if you are independent or on "the fence" between two noble parties.

(Mwaha I love this idea more and more.)

I love this idea too, but sometimes you hire people you aren't completely sure of. They're new or they're naughty and you hope to get them on track. It's scary to give those people criminal immunity. It's even more scary to make noble clans so exclusive that new players can't join. How do we account for that in this idea?  Maybe rank?

Rank, just like it is if you're an AoD recruit. You have to prove oocly and icly that you can handle the responsibility before trust is given with being a privileged member of a Noble House, and I think that makes sense both in and out of game.

[Semper]

This would also make way more sense to actually have PC guards instead of NPC ones, because a PC provides more comprehensive defense against threats than a limited NPC could provide. Conflict between Noble Houses would become a real deal, since you could have actual battles in the middle of the night (if things escalated that much), and the only ones who could stop or limit the blood shed are AoD and Templars.

I think there's a lot more tweaking that would need to be done though, since the potential for abuse is high, but if we could work it out I think it would leave the city a more dynamic and scary place to live, with the semblence of order on the surface.

[Semper]

Oh!! And then the Labyrinth becomes a viable place to escape to, with its own set of rules. It would really liven up the city and make Allanak really mirror Armageddon's theme of desperate survival.

[Incognito]

How about you become crimcode immune if you are aligned with a Noble House. Then, the Templarate really DO become the law-holders, because only they can deal with minions stepping outside of the boundary of public peace.

Boom, problem between Nobles and Templars solved. And pcs have waaay more incentive to join a Noble house because you are physically/socially threatened if you are independent or on "the fence" between two noble parties.

(Mwaha I love this idea more and more.)

I love this idea too, but sometimes you hire people you aren't completely sure of. They're new or they're naughty and you hope to get them on track. It's scary to give those people criminal immunity. It's even more scary to make noble clans so exclusive that new players can't join. How do we account for that in this idea?  Maybe rank?

This isnt a problem. Usually all noble houses have two branches. One for the nobility (Nobles of House So and So) and one for the employees (Servants of the House So and So). Immunity could be provided for the former and not for the latter.