Yeah, I know it's probably been suggested. But each city has area's that would serve well with player owned shops. one city even hass a whole section that would wark perfectly.
I think you should be able to hire a shop keeper, and based on salary, and so on, this would reflect there watch haggle, and value skill.
And I think you should have a way of robbing these things. Because...All things in Balance.
Yeah would be so cool, you could just dump all the stuff you wanted to sell on him, and he would close up when it was all gone (or night time came around, but then reopen in the morning)....then he'd take a cut as his pay.
Or her even.
Eh...
The PCs that would be capable of using such a system profitably already have no problem making coin. This would just serve to take half the actual work (and interaction!) out of it.
Doesn't ring my chimes, but that's just me. Take the npc out of the equation and it's perhaps more interesting.
Quote from: Barzalene on April 04, 2013, 03:09:05 PM
Doesn't ring my chimes, but that's just me. Take the npc out of the equation and it's perhaps more interesting.
That is a pretty interesting scenario. Like, exit out of the game in the shop to be your own shopkeep. I LOVE IT!
I don't dig this idea. It's not meant for a MUD.
The thing is, we're already doing this, we just don't get ownership and branding.
Codedly, this would be (almost) identical to the current shopkeepers.
The debate should thus be: is the ownership and branding of sales outside of the merchant houses something that would improve Arm overall?
Way against a PC turning into an NPC.
In support of PCs using ldesc and arrange to represent they have a stall, leading to interaction with players who want to trade, and the powers that govern the area they are selling out of.
I changed my mind. Maybe just areas that PC's were allowed to populate and sell their stuff at, with 'display' tables and such that allowed other PC's to look at and view stuff (like display cases)...but only the PC could take stuff in and out of.
Quote from: Maso on April 04, 2013, 04:13:45 PM
I changed my mind. Maybe just areas that PC's were allowed to populate and sell their stuff at, with 'display' tables and such that allowed other PC's to look at and view stuff (like display cases) ...
Yeah, cool. That sounds fun. I'm imagining a scene where a PC merchant opens up their display, and another PC merchant opens up across the street, and they have a stare off.
Quote
... but only the PC could take stuff in and out of.
Or thieves, yes.
I think there are display cases when you can look at the contents' descriptions. I'd definitely like to see those be more common.
Or also something simpler like a display mat you can "hold" that behaves the same way.
You can sit on a rug, and put items on display on it that other people can look at.
Right, but that also makes stealing those items trivial (unless there's a bit of code attached to them that I'm not aware of).
Can't you get a very similar experience by joining house kadius or salarr?
There are items IG that can be worn that can also have items placed on them for display (very similar to the sash / strap code used by some clan livery items). They are great for allowing PCs to see the items you are selling without opening them up for rampant, uncoded theft. I don't believe they allow others to see the items mDescs, however.
I'm all for pc's pitching a tent in the market and hawking. Not crazy about every Tom and Dick indie having their own NPC run store.
In my experience, nobody just took the things off the rug and went off with them.
I think it'd be fair to give players the benefit of the doubt here and a bit of trust not to do wanky things like that. If they want to try and codedly steal them, fair play!
Quote from: musashi on April 04, 2013, 06:35:24 PM
I'm all for pc's pitching a tent in the market and hawking. Not crazy about every Tom and Dick indie having their own NPC run store.
I don't think tents are coded for city use, but yeah, this would be fun.
Right now you have to settle for a rug.
I think the problem with the display cases and such is that you can't 'view' the items within them...you can't get a good look at them the same way you can with items in an NPC store. If that was adjusted that would be cool...Also...something that you didn't have to actually hold (like a table vs. a case around your neck).
Quote from: Marauder Moe on April 04, 2013, 03:03:15 PM
Eh...
The PCs that would be capable of using such a system profitably already have no problem making coin. This would just serve to take half the actual work (and interaction!) out of it.
Not every change needs to be weighed against a PC being able to profit or not. Sometimes ideas just add functionality/realism to the world. Being able to set up a shop for a huge fee is potentially one of those ideas.
Ehhh my preference goes out to selling to PC's anyway, in person. It affects the game mechanics in a positive way, creates RP and it's just fun, rather than dragging your stuff from shop to shop, waiting for another crash to happen.
I remember this being suggested many years ago and it still seems like a good idea.
It was pointed out then that a PC change just change his Ldesc to make it seem as if he were standing in the stall selling things to passer-by.
What this kinda does is create a personal merchant NPC that will buy your stuff (at a discount) and circumvents that current 5 item limit on the current NPC shopkeepers and possibly gives one a place to sell stuff that normally wouldn't sell to an NPC.
I support the idea, though, especially if the NPC stalls could be ripped off.
Quote from: DustMight on April 04, 2013, 07:56:57 PM
possibly gives one a place to sell stuff that normally wouldn't sell to an NPC.
Like liquid containers. -.-
Quote from: maxid on April 04, 2013, 06:48:28 PM
Being able to set up a shop for a huge fee is potentially one of those ideas.
This is exactly the kind of problem/opportunity that will occur as players get better at having their characters stay alive.
One of the challenges in Arm is continuity. We are forced to rely on staff for continuity, because of a number of related factors:
- Characters don't often live full lives. Their lives are cut off, tragically. The average character lives something like 2 RL weeks.
- We might complain that the game economy is "broken" -- but we sometimes to ignore (to judge by conversation on the GDB) that Zalanthas is not a capitalist society, and has different underlying assumptions about wealth and power.
- Characters often lack many of the basic social ties that make continuity possible IRL. They rarely raise kids. They rarely have parents, especially onscreen. They rarely have known even their closest companions more than a couple of years.
- Changes in the game world are not organic. They must be coded by a group of volunteers.
Still, as players get more skill, characters will rise in power. Characters who rise in power may actually be able to effect change.
Plus, it's not a idle at your stall like in some graphical MMORPG's.
I like the idea of having a PC area of the bazaar where PCs could congregate, spread out a carpet and display wares. There would need to be code mechanisms in place that prevent people from entering the room, grabbing your stuff, as well as to discourage thievery. Crim flags would do this just fine, during the right hours of the day.
I'm not a fan of any NPC automated shopkeepers though.
I also think those bone display cases might be a decent idea as well. I think it'd be great to have a mobile container that people can look at, and know you're a merchant and what you're selling. Would give Templars a reason to remember names of merchants, and a real "reason" to give out merchant licenses.
Being able to pitch tents in the bazaar would let players set up their own stalls. I also suggest enabling the Hit Code for the whole area, so they can then fight over primo spots.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on April 04, 2013, 11:36:19 PM
Being able to pitch tents in the bazaar would let players set up their own stalls. I also suggest enabling the Hit Code for the whole area, so they can then fight over primo spots.
Pretty sure you -can- set tents up there.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on April 04, 2013, 04:32:28 PM
Right, but that also makes stealing those items trivial (unless there's a bit of code attached to them that I'm not aware of).
You can hire someone to guard the rug, or stand there and guard it yourself. At least I believe you can guard objects. Been a while since I checked.
This idea sounds good in theory but I don't know about automation with NPCs or any of that. It sounds like a really complicated solution to something that's not really a problem.
If you're providing the person/guard with food/water and a place to sleep and keep their things, you can get away with paying them a few small a month.
Find out IC.
Quote from: Maso on April 04, 2013, 06:43:37 PM
I think the problem with the display cases and such is that you can't 'view' the items within them...you can't get a good look at them the same way you can with items in an NPC store. If that was adjusted that would be cool...Also...something that you didn't have to actually hold (like a table vs. a case around your neck).
Are you sure? I'm pretty sure there is a for this, either "look <item> case" or possibly "look case <item>." I used to use it all the time when I was playing a Kadian, it's just not intuitive or well-known. Or maybe I'm getting confused with looking at items on tables.
All the tools for creating a PC "stall" or tent are there. If you can't pitch a tent inside, who says you can't right outside the gates? I bet there's more traffic there anyways.
It may take some time acquiring everything you need: supplies, a token, bribing people in power, paying for guards, getting inventory, etc. but that's all part of the fun.
I think facilitating this would make it easier to get players involved. Perhaps there's a reason it hasn't really been done on a large scale as of yet.
Quote from: valeria on April 05, 2013, 08:02:47 AM
Quote from: Maso on April 04, 2013, 06:43:37 PM
I think the problem with the display cases and such is that you can't 'view' the items within them...you can't get a good look at them the same way you can with items in an NPC store. If that was adjusted that would be cool...Also...something that you didn't have to actually hold (like a table vs. a case around your neck).
Are you sure? I'm pretty sure there is a for this, either "look <item> case" or possibly "look case <item>." I used to use it all the time when I was playing a Kadian, it's just not intuitive or well-known. Or maybe I'm getting confused with looking at items on tables.
LOOK (ITEM) (TABLE/CASE) will allow you to look at an item on a table-like object. (That includes the display cases.)
Quote from: Zul on April 05, 2013, 11:16:49 AM
I think facilitating this would make it easier to get players involved. Perhaps there's a reason it hasn't really been done on a large scale as of yet.
I think it hasn't been done often because sitting in the marketplace hoping to attract passer-by's is a
lot more boring (and less productive) than sitting in taverns and conducting your sales there.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on April 05, 2013, 11:22:29 AM
Quote from: Zul on April 05, 2013, 11:16:49 AM
I think facilitating this would make it easier to get players involved. Perhaps there's a reason it hasn't really been done on a large scale as of yet.
I think it hasn't been done often because sitting in the marketplace hoping to attract passer-by's is a lot more boring (and less productive) than sitting in taverns and conducting your sales there.
That's the kind of role that people who play armageddon as a side-game or from work would probably enjoy.
I can't imagine spending more than five minutes myself sitting in the middle of the tribal market hoping that somebody will pass by and come visit me, just like I'd never want anyone to 'guard' my tent as a job. Only a few very select type of players would/do enjoy that type of role.
Armageddon players have a way to come up with 'solution' that nobody is willing/wanting to play out for a reason. Because it's bloody boring. Setting up a tent in the middle of somewhere is not going to get you any customers and, again, if you don't like idling for more than five minutes at a time, there's no way you can take that as a solution.
One of my most fun characters in both Harshlands and Shadows of Isildur is when I had my own little shops to take care of, filling up the storeroom with items that I crafted myself and that were being sold and 'displayed' by NPC shopkeepers. It gave me a sense of pride to have items on sale that no others did and that people would come to me just for them.
The same kind of pride I had when I was running my own shops in Star Wars Galaxies.
Setting up a tent in the middle of nowhere and pretending to play shop till I get bored to death? Fuck that shit.
Quote from: bcw81 on April 05, 2013, 11:21:30 AM
Quote from: valeria on April 05, 2013, 08:02:47 AM
Quote from: Maso on April 04, 2013, 06:43:37 PM
I think the problem with the display cases and such is that you can't 'view' the items within them...you can't get a good look at them the same way you can with items in an NPC store. If that was adjusted that would be cool...Also...something that you didn't have to actually hold (like a table vs. a case around your neck).
Are you sure? I'm pretty sure there is a for this, either "look <item> case" or possibly "look case <item>." I used to use it all the time when I was playing a Kadian, it's just not intuitive or well-known. Or maybe I'm getting confused with looking at items on tables.
LOOK (ITEM) (TABLE/CASE) will allow you to look at an item on a table-like object. (That includes the display cases.)
Which isn not the same as 'view'. It will give you the mdesc, but not infomation such as...will the item fit you...what it could be used for...does that bow have the right pull....what kind of style is it (who is it made by)...etc etc. Which may not be so bad, but it just makes it slightly more difficult to be a PC shopkeeper than an NPC one.
Quote from: Maso on April 05, 2013, 12:27:51 PM
Quote from: bcw81 on April 05, 2013, 11:21:30 AM
Quote from: valeria on April 05, 2013, 08:02:47 AM
Quote from: Maso on April 04, 2013, 06:43:37 PM
I think the problem with the display cases and such is that you can't 'view' the items within them...you can't get a good look at them the same way you can with items in an NPC store. If that was adjusted that would be cool...Also...something that you didn't have to actually hold (like a table vs. a case around your neck).
Are you sure? I'm pretty sure there is a for this, either "look <item> case" or possibly "look case <item>." I used to use it all the time when I was playing a Kadian, it's just not intuitive or well-known. Or maybe I'm getting confused with looking at items on tables.
LOOK (ITEM) (TABLE/CASE) will allow you to look at an item on a table-like object. (That includes the display cases.)
Which isn not the same as 'view'. It will give you the mdesc, but not infomation such as...will the item fit you...what it could be used for...does that bow have the right pull....what kind of style is it (who is it made by)...etc etc. Which may not be so bad, but it just makes it slightly more difficult to be a PC shopkeeper than an NPC one.
But I think that's fine. The PC shopkeeper has a wider range of interaction, after all.
Quote from: Maso on April 05, 2013, 12:27:51 PM
Quote from: bcw81 on April 05, 2013, 11:21:30 AM
Quote from: valeria on April 05, 2013, 08:02:47 AM
Quote from: Maso on April 04, 2013, 06:43:37 PM
I think the problem with the display cases and such is that you can't 'view' the items within them...you can't get a good look at them the same way you can with items in an NPC store. If that was adjusted that would be cool...Also...something that you didn't have to actually hold (like a table vs. a case around your neck).
Are you sure? I'm pretty sure there is a for this, either "look <item> case" or possibly "look case <item>." I used to use it all the time when I was playing a Kadian, it's just not intuitive or well-known. Or maybe I'm getting confused with looking at items on tables.
LOOK (ITEM) (TABLE/CASE) will allow you to look at an item on a table-like object. (That includes the display cases.)
Which isn not the same as 'view'. It will give you the mdesc, but not infomation such as...will the item fit you...what it could be used for...does that bow have the right pull....what kind of style is it (who is it made by)...etc etc. Which may not be so bad, but it just makes it slightly more difficult to be a PC shopkeeper than an NPC one.
Yeah, I'm with Barz here. If it's a PC shopkeeper, you have the ability to "TELL SHOPKEEPER (pointing to that one sexy dress that reveals everything while still covering the wearer's modesty) Can I see that one? I would like to try it on before buying. If you give me a discount, I'll let you watch me change into it." He will then respond to you, unlike an NPC.
Quote from: Malken on April 05, 2013, 11:34:04 AM
One of my most fun characters in both Harshlands and Shadows of Isildur is when I had my own little shops to take care of, filling up the storeroom with items that I crafted myself and that were being sold and 'displayed' by NPC shopkeepers. It gave me a sense of pride to have items on sale that no others did and that people would come to me just for them.
This is kind of what I was getting at by mentioning this type of play being facilitated by staff.
And we're currently not going to have something like this because...?
Really, everything you need in game to be a PC shopkeeper who has a rug or display case in a bazaar and sets up and trades with other PC's...is already there. We just don't see it because people don't do it much. I have seen it though, and it's cool. Maybe it's not financially viable enough when your only customers are PC's and not NPC's or even vNPC's? Might also get pretty lonely and boring if no one stops by all day.
Quote from: Maso on April 05, 2013, 01:22:38 PM
Really, everything you need in game to be a PC shopkeeper who has a rug or display case in a bazaar and sets up and trades with other PC's...is already there. We just don't see it because people don't do it much. I have seen it though, and it's cool. Maybe it's not financially viable enough when your only customers are PC's and not NPC's or even vNPC's? Might also get pretty lonely and boring if no one stops by all day.
That's why I say it's probably not the kind of role anyone would want unless you play Arm on the side.. Even if you had a NPC shopkeeper who you had to pay, I don't think it would stop any sort of interaction, you can just sit at the Sanctuary or Gaj and keep telling people to go visit your shop, instead of sitting somewhere all by your lonely self hoping that someone will pity you and come visit.
People are always afraid of new things on Arm, that it'll take away interaction if we introduce it to the game, like apartments at first, then PC storehouses, and now PC stalls..
Quote from: Maso on April 05, 2013, 01:22:38 PM
Might also get pretty lonely and boring if no one stops by all day.
Doesn't that have something to do with why the OP initially suggested players be given the opportunity to establish a place of trade with an NPC shopkeeper?
I get that you were the first to respond, and you seem to be on board with the idea...I just don't get how this is a bad idea. It would do nothing to harm the game or get in the way of role-play (so far as I can see), and yet the majority of the posters in this thread are vehemently against the realization of such an idea.
I'm quite perplexed, and I'd rather read some more insightful posts pointing to the contrary as opposed to "eh, this can be already be done in-game with a rug and some wares placed on it".
I don't want to see a work around or a half-assed attempt at something by players (e.g. placing your wares atop a rug and hoping someone might stroll past, stop, and offer you some measure of their time). I'd be much more interested in seeing players be given the ability to set out to do something and have the necessary tools to realize their goals.
Quote from: Malken on April 05, 2013, 01:46:18 PMPeople are always afraid of new things on Arm, that it'll take away interaction if we introduce it to the game, like apartments at first, then PC storehouses, and now PC stalls..
What I'm afraid of in a system like suggested is that people will treat it like Achaea's system. In that there is no rhyme nor reason why "Herbs and Turds" is selling a selection of legwear, underwear, swords, and absolutely no herbs or turds. A system like mentioned would mean that PC merchants who want to be indy would basically just be doing exactly what they already do - Selling everything they make to an NPC - however, if this were added it would mean that they could sell -everything- to said merchant instead of having to wait for their stock to decrease/financial assets to increase.
Note that doing that would mean that actually needing to speak to a PC to get yourself a small item would become non-existent. While that is not entirely bad in and of itself, I do think it would take away from playing a... You know... Merchant.
I don't see what owning shopkeeper npc adds to the game in a positive way? Do I want to stifle the independent merchant? Kinda. It's a harsh desert planet. Do I want to replace pc interaction with an npc? I don't. Do I want to make Amos lug his crap around until he unloads it? Yeah. Maybe he'll hire help, giving another pc work. Or maybe he'll get robbed- thus supporting the criminal element. I just think that's a bigger win for the game.
Now Zul is changing my mind back...I'm very on the fence with this. On one hand, it would be pretty cool for PC's to be able to set up their own shops with NPC shopkeepers and be able to populate that shop with products...On the other hand - how many people would actually make use of this feature regularly to make it worthwhile to code in? PC's that live long enough and are genuinely entrepreneurial enough to achieve this are probably rare, it might be easier for the staff to set them up with a one time shop for their efforts.
Quote from: Barzalene on April 05, 2013, 02:14:35 PM
I don't see what owning shopkeeper npc adds to the game in a positive way?
I commented on this below, but here's a short list:
1) Foster relationships - both good and bad - between independent merchants
2) Foster relationships - both good and bad - between independent merchants and merchant houses. I believe this will lead to assassins being in higher demand.
3) Increased political intrigue
4) An increase in the amount of barroom deals between a merchant and city enforcer (soldier, templar, etc.) with regard to putting the squeeze on an annoying competitor that's cutting in on their turf
Quote from: Barzalene on April 05, 2013, 02:14:35 PM
Do I want to stifle the independent merchant? Kinda. It's a harsh desert planet.
I find this to be a bit unnecessary and somewhat obtuse.
Quote from: Barzalene on April 05, 2013, 02:14:35 PM
Do I want to replace pc interaction with an npc? I don't.
I don't necessarily think it will. Rather, I am of the opinion that owning a stall can open the door to a host of role-play opportunities and political intrigue.
Quote from: Barzalene on April 05, 2013, 02:14:35 PM
Do I want to make Amos lug his crap around until he unloads it? Yeah. Maybe he'll hire help, giving another pc work. Or maybe he'll get robbed- thus supporting the criminal element. I just think that's a bigger win for the game.
I tend to disagree, but fair enough.
Quote from: Maso on April 05, 2013, 02:17:09 PM
How many people would actually make use of this feature regularly to make it worthwhile to code in?
Good question. I will say this: in being an exclusive player of combat roles, I would be very interested in trying my hand at a merchant class in the near future if given the opportunity to establish my own shop and peddle my wares.
Idea: What if these shops could be coded in similar fashion as apartments in that multiple pcs can join together to "rent" a shop, hire a shopkeeper and have the profits disbursed amongst them?
Add this to the list of reasons why I feel this can add to the game.
I hate debate. So please understand I am actually asking not for an argument, but for clarification, why all the positives you list are more likely with an npc rather than pc shopkeeper?
Quote from: Barzalene on April 05, 2013, 02:28:54 PM
I hate debate. So please understand I am actually asking not for an argument, but for clarification, why all the positives you list are more likely with an npc rather than pc shopkeeper?
I'm not trying to debate you or win the Internet, but fair enough.
I believe the positives I listed above can be realized with an NPC because NPCS do not have lives outside the game. Players do (I hope).
Sadly, I can only play so much out of the day.
Because the reality of a PC shopkeeper is that they will spend all their IG days alone and bored stood in the market surrounded by NPC's and vNPC's who don't want their wares with very little real PC interaction. I like to think NPC's can talk to other NPC's.
What do NPC shopkeepers have to do with any of those positives? ???
Quote from: bcw81 on April 05, 2013, 02:07:04 PM
Quote from: Malken on April 05, 2013, 01:46:18 PMPeople are always afraid of new things on Arm, that it'll take away interaction if we introduce it to the game, like apartments at first, then PC storehouses, and now PC stalls..
What I'm afraid of in a system like suggested is that people will treat it like Achaea's system. In that there is no rhyme nor reason why "Herbs and Turds" is selling a selection of legwear, underwear, swords, and absolutely no herbs or turds. A system like mentioned would mean that PC merchants who want to be indy would basically just be doing exactly what they already do - Selling everything they make to an NPC - however, if this were added it would mean that they could sell -everything- to said merchant instead of having to wait for their stock to decrease/financial assets to increase.
Note that doing that would mean that actually needing to speak to a PC to get yourself a small item would become non-existent. While that is not entirely bad in and of itself, I do think it would take away from playing a... You know... Merchant.
Perhapse a specific liscense to sell specific wares in a stall?
Quote from: Barzalene on April 05, 2013, 02:28:54 PM
I hate debate. So please understand I am actually asking not for an argument, but for clarification, why all the positives you list are more likely with an npc rather than pc shopkeeper?
That's pretty easy to answer..
Because with an NPC shopkeeper, you can go ahead and set up the items you want sold and have someone do the 'coded' part of what's boring and annoying about owning a shop would be like. So instead of sitting on a rug in the middle of nowhere, holding a case with a bunch of items that would make absolutely no sense sitting in said case, like a few wooden planks, three bows, two sets of obsidian breastplates and a Tuluki flag, you could just dump all these items in a storeroom and it would be displayed by the NPC shopkeeper as the items on sale, like a normal shop would be.
This way, the PC can then go back to the Sanctuary and advertise his shop and what he sells, instead of sitting in the Red Sun Commons for hours being bored to death.
And as for the 'being able to steal' part of the game, you could just have it setup like an apartment, as someone said.. The items would still sit physically in a room, just like the 'sids paid for said items would then be transferred to the storeroom. So any thieves who could manage to get into the storeroom would then have access to the items/sids.
Quote from: Malken on April 05, 2013, 02:34:42 PM
Quote from: Barzalene on April 05, 2013, 02:28:54 PM
I hate debate. So please understand I am actually asking not for an argument, but for clarification, why all the positives you list are more likely with an npc rather than pc shopkeeper?
That's pretty easy to answer..
Because with an NPC shopkeeper, you can go ahead and set up the items you want sold and have someone do the 'coded' part of what's boring and annoying about owning a shop would be like. So instead of sitting on a rug in the middle of nowhere, holding a case with a bunch of items that would make absolutely no sense sitting in said case, like a few wooden planks, three bows, two sets of obsidian breastplates and a Tuluki flag, you could just dump all these items in a storeroom and it would be displayed by the NPC shopkeeper as the items on sale, like a normal shop would be.
This way, the PC can then go back to the Sanctuary and advertise his shop and what he sells, instead of sitting in the Red Sun Commons for hours being bored to death.
And as for the 'being able to steal' part of the game, you could just have it setup like an apartment, as someone said.. The items would still sit physically in a room, just like the 'sids paid for said items would then be transferred to the storeroom. So any thieves who could manage to get into the storeroom would then have access to the items/sids.
Malken. it's like you took my original ramblings, and turned them into what it should have been. Bravo, good man. Bravo.
Do not want.
It is already possible to have a PC ran shop in game. I have seen it done, and done well.
There is literally no other coded profession in game that will allow you to go mudsex while you make money. Why do you want to add one? Making coins should not be something that just happens even when you're logged out (if you're a commoner).
Quote from: bcw81 on April 05, 2013, 03:31:31 PM
There is literally no other coded profession in game that will allow you to go mudsex while you make money. Why do you want to add one? Making coins should not be something that just happens even when you're logged out (if you're a non-GMH commoner) and don't have minions.
I agree, but there are a couple of exceptions.
Quote from: Morrolan on April 05, 2013, 04:03:48 PM
Quote from: bcw81 on April 05, 2013, 03:31:31 PM
There is literally no other coded profession in game that will allow you to go mudsex while you make money. Why do you want to add one? Making coins should not be something that just happens even when you're logged out (if you're a non-GMH commoner) and don't have minions.
I agree, but there are a couple of exceptions.
Coded professions. Coded.
Quote from: Patuk on April 05, 2013, 04:09:39 PM
Coded professions. Coded.
Then there still wouldn't be. Renting a stall wouldn't be a "coded profession."
Maybe I'm not clear on what a "coded profession" is?
Quote from: Morrolan on April 05, 2013, 04:20:54 PM
Quote from: Patuk on April 05, 2013, 04:09:39 PM
Coded professions. Coded.
Then there still wouldn't be. Renting a stall wouldn't be a "coded profession."
Maybe I'm not clear on what a "coded profession" is?
A profession handled by the code instead of by straight RP, such as, but not limited to, having NPC's do things for you with a command, foraging for salts, etc.
Yeah, but it's not a "profession" if it's open to anyone who can scrape together the coin to rent a stall.
EDIT:
And it requires other players to buy the items, as well. It's really not an automated money maker at all.
You guys are forgetting that this PC would have to make or acquire the goods to sell via this stall, and cut a profit while doing so.
Quote from: bcw81 on April 05, 2013, 03:31:31 PM
There is literally no other coded profession in game that will allow you to go mudsex while you make money. Why do you want to add one? Making coins should not be something that just happens even when you're logged out (if you're a commoner).
Weakest argument against so far.
I could play a clothier and spam the shit out of my crafts and make a small fortune in the comfort of my home with minimal risk. I guess that counts as a coded profession, though, even though I'm just sitting in a room using the same ol' emotes I've been using for the last twenty sandcloth sleeves.
I'd rather take extra work hours into setting up my shop into something I can be proud of, even though afterward a NPC would 'do all the massive and exhausting work of 'listing' my items' to the crowd.
Instead, indie merchants craft items and 90% of the time they'll go sell that item the minute it's done to a NPC, bypassing any sort of interaction that people are so wanting to protect by never seeing a PC-ran shop in their game.
And Desertman, let's be realistic here, how many RL years did it take the PC to have his/her own shop, and do you think it's a fair amount of -RL- years to sacrifice in a game to achieve said goal?
I think I'd rather deal with NPC merchants than with PC merchants.
Quote from: Molten Heart on April 05, 2013, 05:43:17 PM
I think I'd rather deal with NPC merchants than with PC merchants.
Buying NPC merchants and guards ... No one will ever abuse that.
I think the weakest argument I've heard is that a PC with a display, arrange and ldesc commands, and a willingness to RP would automatically be boring and fail. How lazy and unimaginative you must be.
Quote from: Kismetic on April 05, 2013, 06:43:42 PM
I think the weakest argument I've heard is that a PC with a display, arrange and ldesc commands, and a willingness to RP would automatically be boring and fail. How lazy and unimaginative you must be.
Please try it for us on your next PC and tell us how it goes. I'm very curious.
I'm confident I could pull it off, but I'm too busy killing merchants, sorry. :(
Quote from: Kismetic on April 05, 2013, 06:43:42 PM
Buying NPC merchants and guards ... No one will ever abuse that.
I think the weakest argument I've heard is that a PC with a display, arrange and ldesc commands, and a willingness to RP would automatically be boring and fail. How lazy and unimaginative you must be.
I think the strongest argument against PC merchants is that nothing is stopping people from playing them other than people's choice. The tools are there, the ability is there. It would seem that people don't choose this option because they either haven't thought of it, or they would rather do something else they enjoy more.
Quote from: Molten Heart on April 05, 2013, 06:57:49 PM
I think the strongest argument against PC merchants is that nothing is stopping people from playing them other than people's choice. The tools are there, the ability is there. It would seem that people don't choose this option because they either haven't thought of it, or they would rather do something else they enjoy more.
Until Morgenes decides to code PC-ran shops anyway and you all suddenly think that it's the greatest thing ever.
I know you well by now, Armageddon playerbase :P
I would posit that creative PC solutions are infinitely superior to letting an NPC run your shop. I'm not against the game world perhaps having a bazaar area where you can rent a limited number of stalls that can be opened or closed. Player run stalls.
There was recently *(within the last two years)* a PC who played a character who would routinely hire other PC's to do jobs for him, hire mercenaries to transport him up to certain trading outposts, and sit in the middle of bazaars and sell his wares to other passing PC's. He was by far my favorite dwarf ever.
Quote from: bcw81 on April 05, 2013, 07:21:03 PM
There was recently *(within the last two years)* a PC who played a character who would routinely hire other PC's to do jobs for him, hire mercenaries to transport him up to certain trading outposts, and sit in the middle of bazaars and sell his wares to other passing PC's. He was by far my favorite dwarf ever.
I remember him. He was fun. It was fun when he would randomly like, waylay you in some POS town you don't expect to see anyone in.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on April 05, 2013, 02:33:18 PM
What do NPC shopkeepers have to do with any of those positives? ???
I'm not sure who this was directed at, but I will assume myself.
NPC shopkeepers bear a direct correlation to the positives I listed because they would allow the PC to engage in meaningful conversation/role-play with other players for the purpose of promoting their stall, furthering political intrigue, hiring assassins to take out their competition, etc.
In other words, I think having an NPC help with this equation could promote the tagline of Armageddon: murder, corruption, betrayal.
Quote from: bcw81 on April 05, 2013, 07:21:03 PM
There was recently *(within the last two years)* a PC who played a character who would routinely hire other PC's to do jobs for him, hire mercenaries to transport him up to certain trading outposts, and sit in the middle of bazaars and sell his wares to other passing PC's. He was by far my favorite dwarf ever.
That's great, but I don't play during peak, so standing in the middle of a bazaar is somewhat out of the question. :-\
I'm curious what happens to your stall and NPC in this scenario when you get assassinated by a GMH/Noble/Templar/Syndicate/Competitor.
I was making the assumption that this would a short term hire...like...an IG day to day thing... so if you died then your shop just wouldn't get set up the next day.
I'm still really torn over this, but also not in a particularly engaged way...like...I don't think it's a big issue and I can see good arguments coming from both sides. I'm not sure the demand is there, if it were, you'd see more people trying to make the most of what they do have already (like aforementioned dwarf did - mega kudos for that, but I think it's probably still too recent to talk about really).
Um, I do believe that the capability for coded PC run shops is already installed in the game; and used to be utilized in the past. There are clans I've been in where probing the old GDB posts, etc, has dug up reference to indy PC's who owned shops in the city states King's Ages' ago.
Assuming that, it would appear as though staff decided to take them out of the picture, yeah? I'd always assumed that was because they wanted shop owning indie PC's to remain a relative rarity in game, on par with indie wagon owners.
But, anyway ... point is I believe that as things currently stand, it's already possible to have a shop with a coded NPC shop keeper and guards hanging out. You just need to strive for it IG.
If the debate going on here is that such a thing shouldn't have to be strived for, but should be far easier to obtain ... whelp, I'm against that. Armageddon's economic system is extremely oppresive and monopolized, so coming up without pre-established political power in said system, should be strive-worthy imo.
Quote from: musashi on April 05, 2013, 08:37:37 PM
Um, I do believe that the capability for coded PC run shops is already installed in the game; and used to be utilized in the past. There are clans I've been in where probing the old GDB posts, etc, has dug up reference to indy PC's who owned shops in the city states King's Ages' ago.
In doing a search on the GDB, I came across a pc known as "Durg" who had a shop in Freils before 2003. That is the only example I could find, so it would seem that this is not necessarily something that is easy/can readily happen.
Quote from: musashi on April 05, 2013, 08:37:37 PM
If the debate going on here is that such a thing shouldn't have to be strived for, but should be far easier to obtain ... whelp, I'm against that. Armageddon's economic system is extremely oppresive and monopolized, so coming up without pre-established political power in said system, should be strive-worthy imo.
Armageddon's economic system can and should be extremely oppressive and hold true to monopolistic ideals, but not to the detriment of the player-base on an OOC level.
I find the current system to be a bit difficult to break into, so to speak, for newer players. I myself have not been around all that long (a year and a half or so, off and on?), and I can say with utmost certainty that working for countless hours off-peak to realize a goal that will more than likely go unnoticed is a bit disheartening, to say the least.
I still feel that having this type of system established will facilitate players and foster in-depth role-play (see my reasons in previous posts. Is this wrong, or in some fashion a bad thing?
Quote from: Zul on April 05, 2013, 08:17:27 PM
Quote from: bcw81 on April 05, 2013, 07:21:03 PM
There was recently *(within the last two years)* a PC who played a character who would routinely hire other PC's to do jobs for him, hire mercenaries to transport him up to certain trading outposts, and sit in the middle of bazaars and sell his wares to other passing PC's. He was by far my favorite dwarf ever.
That's great, but I don't play during peak, so standing in the middle of a bazaar is somewhat out of the question. :-\
If you can't play a trader, then don't play a trader. Isn't that the same for -anything- caused by OOC? If you don't have a good connection, don't go hunt bahamets. If you can't log in during peak, don't play a Byn sergeant (Some may say otherwise to that).
The only thing I can see coming from a system such as the proposed is a bunch of hunters buying out every single one of these created on day one and filling it with their raw goods and never mentioning it except for the rare off handed remark as they sit at the bar or they mudseckz. Anyone who wants to play a -trader- should play a trader with the PC population. That does not mean buying a stall, filling it with everything you make, and sitting in a tavern all day. This would -not- facilitate PC on PC RP, this would -detract- from RP due to players having to go buy from NPC's instead of talking to an actual PC trader.
Part of me like the idea of a hireable 'hawker' to sell your goods for you. It would be neat, provided they had a limit to the number of items they could sell at once, and a fee (half the sale price, maybe) once it sold, as well as possibly an up-front fee of a small amount to make it worth their while in case you are selling mounds of unsaleable crapola. To stop spam-selling, perhaps limit people to hiring only one hawker at a time.
As far as discouraging RP, I tend to think Armageddon players go out of their way to get RP usually, so I doubt this idea would do any noticable harm to the game's RP.
The biggest problem I can see for this is that the staff are already very busy making the game more awesome, and this would require quite a bit of coding. The benefit from it, while nice, would also be rather small compared to time consumed in its implementation.
So, in closing, I think this idea would be neat, but not a priority to be added to the game.
Quote from: bcw81 on April 06, 2013, 02:49:41 AM
If you can't play a trader, then don't play a trader.
What an asinine comment.
Quote from: bcw81 on April 06, 2013, 02:49:41 AM
The only thing I can see coming from a system such as the proposed is a bunch of hunters buying out every single one of these created on day one and filling it with their raw goods and never mentioning it except for the rare off handed remark as they sit at the bar or they mudseckz.
Do you truly think so little of the current batch of players populating the game world? This is a very shortsighted and cynical way in which to view Fredd's idea.
Quote from: bcw81 on April 06, 2013, 02:49:41 AM
That does not mean buying a stall, filling it with everything you make, and sitting in a tavern all day. This would -not- facilitate PC on PC RP, this would -detract- from RP due to players having to go buy from NPC's instead of talking to an actual PC trader.
I must have more faith in the playerbase than yourself, for I feel that setting up a stall will require you to promote it. This means you will need to:
a) engage other characters in conversation at length
b) develop business relationships/partnerships/collaborations
c) conspire to bury your competitors
d) bribe law enforcement officials to back you over your competition
e) hire out professional assassins to either mug/assassinate or destroy the property of your competitors
f) hire out professional guards (i.e. pcs) and use them as muscle to enforce your position and protect your commodities, life and prospective business ventures
g) engage in monopolistic practices wherein you "buyout" your competitors and take over their own stalls, thereby eliminating the level of competition in your area
h) strive to earn the respect of powerful merchant houses and (hopefully) situate yourself in the political arena so as to avoid an untimely death
i) develop promotional sales wherein you offer a discount on one particular item you have in bulk
j) undercut the prices of your competition
k) hire goons to raid and trash the establishment of a competitor (similar to 'e')
l) hire pcs to publicly announce the arrival of sales in and around tavern establishments
All of these things will require interaction with other players.
Those were just a few ideas off the top of my head as to what the implementation of an idea such as this would do to further develop Zalanthas and bring the world closer to a living, breathing world with intriguing consequences, both good and bad.
a) About what? "Oh, I have this new chitin in my shop now." "Hey, are you a hunter? Bring me your stuff and I'll sell it at my shop."
b) Without that being a hardcoded thing, no one will do that. How would that even work without code? "Hey, I have a business relationship with Kadius, they're going to put their merchandise in my shop instead of putting it in their own." Why?
c) No. Why would an NPC shop facilitate this any more than a PC?
d) What? Are you talking about having templars move NPC guards over to your shop? That's just creating more non-PC on PC RP. Not only that, as someone who has played a character with high enough permissions to move NPC's, I can say it's a bitch and it's annoying.
e) Yes, you can do this without an NPC shop too. No one does it. (Or at least it isn't common enough as is)
f) So you'd hire out PC's to guard your NPC shop that you specifically want so -YOU- don't have to stand there.
g) Uh... That just sounds silly. You are not a Greater Merchant House, you are an independent, if you tried to corner a market on something, one of the GMH's would take notice.
h) That has nothing at all to do with this NPC shop idea, that has to do with your own playability.
i) More than likely any code that will go in will be something akin to the already created NPC shops, meaning you wont dictate prices.
j) Read i. Also understand that your petty indy merchant would get obliterated by the GMH's if he just up and did that.
k) You're just repeating e here, and in case you meant literally destroying the shop... Crimcode.
l) For people like you whom you claim need these shops because you're off peak, you sure do have a lot of hopes for finding players to go do stuff for you.
Just repeat here, why can't you do all of this already with an indy merchant right now?
Quote from: Zul on April 05, 2013, 10:33:51 PM
In doing a search on the GDB, I came across a pc known as "Durg" who had a shop in Freils before 2003. That is the only example I could find, so it would seem that this is not necessarily something that is easy/can readily happen.
Armageddon's economic system can and should be extremely oppressive and hold true to monopolistic ideals, but not to the detriment of the player-base on an OOC level.
I find the current system to be a bit difficult to break into, so to speak, for newer players. I myself have not been around all that long (a year and a half or so, off and on?), and I can say with utmost certainty that working for countless hours off-peak to realize a goal that will more than likely go unnoticed is a bit disheartening, to say the least.
I still feel that having this type of system established will facilitate players and foster in-depth role-play (see my reasons in previous posts. Is this wrong, or in some fashion a bad thing?
I didn't say it was readily available to do. I said I believed the code for it was already made, but not currently utilized. There are more examples than just the one you found but you'd need to play in clans that have long histories to find them in all likelihood. It used to be somewhat common. Now it's not.
I think wanting to enforce the economic setting as displayed in the docs was likely the reason for the change. Though I admit I'm guessing there.
My point is that I don't think owning a shop should be as commonplace as renting an apartment. It should be rare. Because the game world is set in such a way that shop ownership outside of the Merchant Houses is all but unheard of. Those are long odds one has to beat in order to get a shop in one of the city states and not be crushed by the resident powers that be.
Quote from: bcw81 on April 06, 2013, 05:51:48 AM
a) About what? "Oh, I have this new chitin in my shop now." "Hey, are you a hunter? Bring me your stuff and I'll sell it at my shop."
Another asinine and shortsighted view at how events would unfold. I do not feel inclined to offer much more of a response to this.
Quote from: bcw81 on April 06, 2013, 05:51:48 AM
b) Without that being a hardcoded thing, no one will do that. How would that even work without code? "Hey, I have a business relationship with Kadius, they're going to put their merchandise in my shop instead of putting it in their own." Why?
By "partnership" I in no way meant that great merchant houses would be inclined to place their wares in your shop. There are other ways to view how a business relationship might unfold/progress.
Quote from: bcw81 on April 06, 2013, 05:51:48 AM
c) No. Why would an NPC shop facilitate this any more than a PC?
In this point, the stall would serve as the catalyst to encourage players to illustrate the true dynamic of Armageddon: murder, corruption, betrayal.
Quote from: bcw81 on April 06, 2013, 05:51:48 AM
d) What? Are you talking about having templars move NPC guards over to your shop? That's just creating more non-PC on PC RP. Not only that, as someone who has played a character with high enough permissions to move NPC's, I can say it's a bitch and it's annoying.
No, I am not talking about having templars moving NPC guards to protect your shop. Think of it like a bribe: you bribe law enforcement officials, and if there is a disagreement or spat between yourself and competition, they will side with you over your competitor. Greased palms are happy palms.
Quote from: bcw81 on April 06, 2013, 05:51:48 AM
e) Yes, you can do this without an NPC shop too. No one does it. (Or at least it isn't common enough as is)
It matters not whether people actively do so or not. I was merely offering a reason as to why having the stall would promote intrigue. Players would now have another reason to want to hire/use assassins.
Furthermore, to make a blanket statement such as "no one does it" is - again - a bit obtuse.
Quote from: bcw81 on April 06, 2013, 05:51:48 AM
f) So you'd hire out PC's to guard your NPC shop that you specifically want so -YOU- don't have to stand there.
Quit the cynic today, aren't we? No, I wouldn't aspire to employ this characters on account of my laziness, but rather to give them something to do and add further depth and colour to the world.
Quote from: bcw81 on April 06, 2013, 05:51:48 AM
g) Uh... That just sounds silly. You are not a Greater Merchant House, you are an independent, if you tried to corner a market on something, one of the GMH's would take notice.
Albeit on a much smaller level. See 'h'.
Quote from: bcw81 on April 06, 2013, 05:51:48 AM
h) That has nothing at all to do with this NPC shop idea, that has to do with your own playability.
Yes, it has everything to do with the NPC shop idea. I don't feel this needs be expounded upon. Independent merchants would have every reason to keep great merchant houses appeased. Think on it.
Quote from: bcw81 on April 06, 2013, 05:51:48 AM
i) More than likely any code that will go in will be something akin to the already created NPC shops, meaning you wont dictate prices.
Very well, so long as this idea is picked up.
Quote from: bcw81 on April 06, 2013, 05:51:48 AM
j) Read i. Also understand that your petty indy merchant would get obliterated by the GMH's if he just up and did that.
So what? Therein lies an additional layer of intrigue. It takes a bit of savvy to do something like this without dying, but it can be done.
Quote from: bcw81 on April 06, 2013, 05:51:48 AM
k) You're just repeating e here, and in case you meant literally destroying the shop... Crimcode.
I'm aware it's a bit redundant, hence the "similar to 'e' statement". I also did not mean literal destruction using code. As I understand it such is not currently possible. Rather, I'd promote simple emotes through a mini-rpt.
Quote from: bcw81 on April 06, 2013, 05:51:48 AM
l) For people like you whom you claim need these shops because you're off peak, you sure do have a lot of hopes for finding players to go do stuff for you.
I'm not sure if I should take offense to the "people like you" comment, though I'll refrain from responding directly to that and simply counter with:
This idea is not about having players do things for me, but rather the creation of new avenues of roleplay, intrigue, plot lines, etc.
Quote from: bcw81 on April 06, 2013, 05:51:48 AM
Just repeat here, why can't you do all of this already with an indy merchant right now?
Ah, there we go. /thread
Quote from: musashi on April 06, 2013, 06:15:04 AM
The game world is set in such a way that shop ownership outside of the Merchant Houses is all but unheard of.
And all of the independent shops in Tuluk, Luir's, Allanak, Red Storm and Cenyr are...?
Please note that I'm not advocating loading up a slew of empty stalls for use. Rather, I'm more of the opinion that 5 stalls for each city-state and 3 stalls or less for the other outposts is more than fair and certainly not enough to be "crushed by the powers that be".
Please investigate who actually owns those shops before you declare them independent. You'll be surprised how long the GMH's arms collectively are.
Quote from: musashi on April 06, 2013, 06:35:42 AM
Please investigate who actually owns those shops before you declare them independent. You'll be surprised how long the GMH's arms collectively are.
Fine, point taken. But you think there are no virtual ones? ::)
My point has always been ... there are I believe ... very ... VERY few. Like if you have one its the story of your life .. few.
Plenty of Indy hawkers and merchants running underfoot selling ware out their backpacks and on display rugs. Maybe in tents and the like that they can easily pack up head off with. But not a lot of independent property owners. I think this is how the game's theme is supposed to be.
Quote from: musashi on April 06, 2013, 06:46:13 AM
My point has always been ... there are I believe ... very ... VERY few. Like if you have one its the story of your life .. few.
Is 2-5 in each city-state too much?
Quote from: Zul on April 05, 2013, 10:33:51 PM
I can say with utmost certainty that working for countless hours off-peak to realize a goal that will more than likely go unnoticed is a bit disheartening, to say the least.
That's fine if you don't want to, but that tends to be the way to get big, interesting things changed/happening. You shouldn't just expect staff to work for countless hours to plonk something in for you that you can't be bothered to work at at all IG yourself.
And don't be discouraged to try and do things off-peak! I've played a Byn Sergeant (suck it anti-offpeak leaders! I might even again!) and an indie merchant that only sold to PCs, and only really used the General Crafter's Subguild. Sure it wasn't easy and i'm pretty patient, but it didn't involve ONLY sitting somewhere trading. It's possible if you're willing to put a bit of effort into the role. eg. Hawking your ass off! I think any player, peak or not, would struggle if they just sit somewhere and don't try to engage interest in their character and their wares.
Also, you won't be as rich as merchants and hunters that sell to NPCs, but that's a good thing if you want to play a small-time merchant that's struggling for survival in a harsh environment! (If you don't want to play this, play in a Merchant House.)
That being said, I like the idea of player-owned NPC run shops and reckon i'd play one. It could be fun and help with playability both in being an indie merchant, and using a PC one. Hard to buy off a PC merchant when they're not around! And it's Sod's Law that they never are when you need them. A stall can be two barrels and a plank of wood, so really it's more the space in the market you're taking up - be that with a rug, makeshift stall, tent etc.
With some caveats though, such as there being a limit to how many things you could have on display to sell (maybe dependent on how much your rent for the size of pitch was), only selling crafted goods, and the amount you sell to vNPCS being so minimal you have to mainly rely on PC trade - and therefore interact with others in order to be in touch with the state of play/demand around you.
I'd also be disappointed if I then saw Monsieur Stall Owner PC selling to other NPC shops to fund their own stall :-X
Sure 2-5 in each city state is fine. Just keep in mind for reference purposes that that means in a city 300,000-400,000 people ... 2-5 people have their own shop without being bought out in some fashion by a greater merchant/noble house. And those are the odds your PC needs to win against to be one of the 2-5.
Warriors want metal swords. Rangers want flying mounts. Gickers want unique spells. And merchants want their own shops. This be the stuff of legend. Yar!
*please note all of the above have in fact been attained. Just rarely. Enjoy the challenge.
Im struggling to find out why 4 pages of discussion are necessary in the pitching process of an idea that already exists in game.
Quote from: Jenred on April 06, 2013, 12:09:10 PM
Im struggling to find out why 4 pages of discussion are necessary in the pitching process of an idea that already exists in game.
Ok, so how about....
1. coded stalls that could be hired out and manned by PC's
2. only in one specific location in the Known (think like Luirs, as it's a Trade Outpost, rather than a city state)
3. only occurs at certain times, like a regular RPT - anyone can take part though if they have the goods and the coin to pay for the stall, though it would be first come first serve
Ponts 2 & 3 would mean there would be a large number of PC's coming together to try and sell their wares at a particular time in one particular place. This would hopefully draw a large pool of people looking to buy all at once. Thus negating the boredom factor that would occur if you're just stood there by yourself all day without a PC in sight.
I suppose the stalls could be available all the time, and if you wanted to be there alone then you could be...there could just be an encouraged RPT as well so at least there was a 'sweet' time to do it.
This is probably something that could be pursued/organised IG by the appropriate parties though.
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,44234.0.html
Isn't this pretty much already the case?
Barring the NPC sellers.
The NPC seller is the crucial difference, and maybe the chance to hire a NPC guard.
Otherwise everything else is doable already if you want it to be PC run.
There is only one reason why a PC merchant doesn't work right now : they have nothing interesting to sell.
But Dalmeth, they can mastercraft!
And I say one item a month is a grueling way to build a catalogue. This isn't the sort of thing that can be solved with one or two items, merchants have to be able to produce a constant variety of goods in order to keep other players interested.
But Dalmeth, the lazy bastards just need to study the craft system!
And I say the craft system is opaque, the logic is contradictory, and an investigation is more likely to produce random items that have no particular relevance. Gathering the number of necessary items to do a serious investigation is also prohibitive, as few outside of the Merchant Houses have the storage space for so many random items, and fewer still can dedicate that space to something that isn't going to make rent.
The staff could build a list of items for each city every month and seed the shops with items from the list. Since merchants are often scanning the shops for items to replicate, players can eventually be taught a number of basic (and some not-so-basic) crafts.
With an opaque crafting system like we have here, it is imperative that crafts be continuously taught between characters.
As it stands, this happens little outside Merchant Houses, and even when other players ask crafters for particular objects, they often can't produce them because the recipe is obscure. Eventually, no one even expects an independent PC merchant to be selling something, so the PC merchant starts selling only to NPC shops. This is not a good system.
Quote from: Dalmeth on April 06, 2013, 02:20:10 PM
There is only one reason why a PC merchant doesn't work right now : they have nothing interesting to sell.
I think PC's sell to each other less often because it's usually easier to go to a market full of NPCs and buy what you want if you want it now, even if you have to pay more. I'd say the largest obstacle to PC's running a stall or a carpet laden with goods is that they have no way to protect their stuff from being stolen. Crim-code doesn't apply to PCs like it does to NPCs, especially NPC merchants.
If there was a corner of the bazaar where PC merchants could pay a small lot fee to lay down a blanket and show off their wares without having to worry about everything stolen by 1 day old thieves, then other social and economic avenues would open up to the game. I don't think it takes a lot of imagination to see what good this could do if it were used.
Agreed, Sephiroto.
Quote from: Sephiroto on April 04, 2013, 08:50:57 PM
I like the idea of having a PC area of the bazaar where PCs could congregate, spread out a carpet and display wares. There would need to be code mechanisms in place that prevent people from entering the room, grabbing your stuff, as well as to discourage thievery. Crim flags would do this just fine, during the right hours of the day.
I'm not a fan of any NPC automated shopkeepers though.
I've done this, spread my rug in the bazaar, pretty much where ever I wanted, but you have to be smart about things. And also there are other market places in the city to do such things like this. I have also made good use of the display case.
If someone wants to view an item, hold it for them, or trust they will not run with it.
Its all very possible without the need to rent a shop or stall.
Quote from: Sephiroto on April 06, 2013, 05:18:46 PM
Quote from: Dalmeth on April 06, 2013, 02:20:10 PM
There is only one reason why a PC merchant doesn't work right now : they have nothing interesting to sell.
I think PC's sell to each other less often because it's usually easier to go to a market full of NPCs and buy what you want if you want it now, even if you have to pay more. I'd say the largest obstacle to PC's running a stall or a carpet laden with goods is that they have no way to protect their stuff from being stolen. Crim-code doesn't apply to PCs like it does to NPCs, especially NPC merchants.
If there was a corner of the bazaar where PC merchants could pay a small lot fee to lay down a blanket and show off their wares without having to worry about everything stolen by 1 day old thieves, then other social and economic avenues would open up to the game. I don't think it takes a lot of imagination to see what good this could do if it were used.
-1
Merchants can make plenty of interesting things, and many needed things. Look for your Niche. I do see plenty of good things made by unaffiliated pc merchants. And I think shops would add into that.
As for the whole "1 mastercraft a month" How long do you think it takes to create something new IRL? A year? i think staff are generous here.
Quote from: Fredd on April 06, 2013, 08:16:02 PM
As for the whole "1 mastercraft a month" How long do you think it takes to create something new IRL? A year? i think staff are generous here.
To design a piece of clothing and make it? To make a piece of furniture of your own design? Design a jug and make it out of clay? Certainly not. More like a week or two.
Master Crafts are restricted for staff convenience, not for "realism".
Quote from: Maso on April 06, 2013, 08:51:00 PM
Quote from: Fredd on April 06, 2013, 08:16:02 PM
As for the whole "1 mastercraft a month" How long do you think it takes to create something new IRL? A year? i think staff are generous here.
To design a piece of clothing and make it? To make a piece of furniture of your own design? Design a jug and make it out of clay? Certainly not. More like a week or two.
I'm fairly certain designing new outfits is time consuming. I know that designing new furniture is. Jugs? probably not, but still.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on April 06, 2013, 08:56:42 PM
Master Crafts are restricted for staff convenience, not for "realism".
Not so, sir. Not so.
Quote from: Fredd on April 06, 2013, 08:16:02 PM
-1
Merchants can make plenty of interesting things, and many needed things. Look for your Niche. I do see plenty of good things made by unaffiliated pc merchants. And I think shops would add into that.
I'm not even sure how this is applicable to the statement made. I think you missed my point, which is that PCs
can make a lot of useful things but it's usually easier just to pay more to buy it from an NPC vendor because it's much less hassle.
Quote from: Hishn on April 06, 2013, 09:38:21 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on April 06, 2013, 08:56:42 PM
Master Crafts are restricted for staff convenience, not for "realism".
Not so, sir. Not so.
Then what's the reasoning for it?
I would assume it is so as not to flood the game with player created items, though I could be wrong.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on April 06, 2013, 10:07:56 PM
Quote from: Hishn on April 06, 2013, 09:38:21 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on April 06, 2013, 08:56:42 PM
Master Crafts are restricted for staff convenience, not for "realism".
Not so, sir. Not so.
Then what's the reasoning for it?
Realism. Whether or not the item 'fits' the world be it by technology available to Zalanthas, technology available to the character designing said item, code-allowance, etc. All of these factors play into the equilibrium of the world, both from an IC and an OOC stand-point. Just because you can master-craft cooking does not mean we want a sandwich in game.
I thought RGS's point was that while it doesn't take the same length of time to develop a sandwich as it does to develop a new piece of armor, you still cannot submit a hundred sandwich mastercraft ideas a month. Because right now, it takes the same mount of time to get a (hypothetical, world-fitting approved) sandwich mastercrafted as it does a new piece of armor. So given the amount of work that goes into every mastercraft (on player and especially staff end), I also thought the limit on mastercraft submissions was just there to keep the flow manageable.
Well... I guess if you're going to go for realism in that department striking a balance between long crafts and short ones... About a month would be right?
Maybe you virtually make a whole lot of sandwiches on your search for that perfect sandwich recipe. Maybe you make thirty jugs until you get that shape that really does it for you. That you want to use as -yours-.
About tree fiddy is my guess.
Realism. Whether or not the item 'fits' the world be it by technology available to Zalanthas, technology available to the character designing said item, code-allowance, etc. All of these factors play into the equilibrium of the world, both from an IC and an OOC stand-point. Just because you can master-craft cooking does not mean we want a sandwich in game.
Aren't there a few sandwiches in game? Swear even with this current PC I've eaten a sandwich. And he's not a ho hum noble or anything.
Edit: Unless you meant placenta sandwiches.
Quote from: BuNutzCola on April 09, 2013, 09:30:18 AM
Realism. Whether or not the item 'fits' the world be it by technology available to Zalanthas, technology available to the character designing said item, code-allowance, etc. All of these factors play into the equilibrium of the world, both from an IC and an OOC stand-point. Just because you can master-craft cooking does not mean we want a sandwich in game.
Aren't there a few sandwiches in game? Swear even with this current PC I've eaten a sandwich. And he's not a ho hum noble or anything.
Edit: Unless you meant placenta sandwiches.
There was a submission call for them like a year? Two years? Back. I know I submitted one. And last I heard, they were in game. You just need to find the recipe's.
I think staff have noted that sandwiches are an example of something that were once in a game, but were judged an anachronism and subsequently purged.
Terming it sandwich is one thing. Putting meat on bread ... Nothing exactly new or advanced, there.
Exactly
And the Highlord said unto his people, "Thou shalt not place thine meat between thine buns, as to do such is the realm of heretics and the morally deficient."
And so it was.
Quote from: hyzhenhok on April 09, 2013, 10:53:54 AM
I think staff have noted that sandwiches are an example of something that were once in a game, but were judged an anachronism and subsequently purged.
yeah but if you search, you'll find the announcement about them wanting recipe's for sandwitches. Though they may be called something different. I know the one I submitted was.
I think nyr actually did that call for submissions.
Quote from: Fredd on April 09, 2013, 11:51:05 AM
Quote from: hyzhenhok on April 09, 2013, 10:53:54 AM
I think staff have noted that sandwiches are an example of something that were once in a game, but were judged an anachronism and subsequently purged.
yeah but if you search, you'll find the announcement about them wanting recipe's for sandwitches. Though they may be called something different. I know the one I submitted was.
I think nyr actually did that call for submissions.
.. Uh. I don't know why you think staff is lacking in these things, but anyone who can write two sentences can figure out how to write a sandwich description and what items needed for it. It hardly seems like the kind of work you'd need for player submissions.
Quote from: Patuk on April 09, 2013, 11:53:57 AM
Quote from: Fredd on April 09, 2013, 11:51:05 AM
Quote from: hyzhenhok on April 09, 2013, 10:53:54 AM
I think staff have noted that sandwiches are an example of something that were once in a game, but were judged an anachronism and subsequently purged.
yeah but if you search, you'll find the announcement about them wanting recipe's for sandwitches. Though they may be called something different. I know the one I submitted was.
I think nyr actually did that call for submissions.
.. Uh. I don't know why you think staff is lacking in these things, but anyone who can write two sentences can figure out how to write a sandwich description and what items needed for it. It hardly seems like the kind of work you'd need for player submissions.
All I did was email them an Arby's menu as a PDF attachment. Silly staffers, asking me for stuff they could write themselves. ;)
Quote from: Desertman on April 09, 2013, 11:50:06 AM
And the Highlord said unto his people, "Thou shalt not place thine meat between thine buns, as to do such is the realm of heretics and the morally deficient."
I
knew that guy hated gays. I think I know the Highlord's identity, now ... Spoiler (http://images.wikia.com/gameofthrones/images/2/2e/Joffrey_2x04.jpg)!
Quote from: Nyr on August 06, 2010, 10:36:21 AM
The good news is that we're not ridding the game of anachronistic words (which would be a poor use of staff time), just enforcing a policy made years ago on one word's usage on items in-game that was not definitive in enforcement. It's not a big deal and was a simple fix that took minutes to do. I appreciate your concern (sarcastic, satirical, or otherwise), but I think it is ill-founded; no player or staffer is going on the war path here. One thing was fixed. Nothing else was touched.
Since the OP concern has been addressed and replacement recipes are going in, I'm going to clog this thread with cholesterol.
(http://sweettater.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/kfc-doubledown4.jpg)
This concern has nothing to do with PC stalls.
Oh but who doesn't now want to now open a stall, throw up a pair of golden arches and sell 1 million kibbeh on Bread with cheese and a special sauce?
Quote from: Patuk on April 09, 2013, 11:53:57 AM
Quote from: Fredd on April 09, 2013, 11:51:05 AM
Quote from: hyzhenhok on April 09, 2013, 10:53:54 AM
I think staff have noted that sandwiches are an example of something that were once in a game, but were judged an anachronism and subsequently purged.
yeah but if you search, you'll find the announcement about them wanting recipe's for sandwitches. Though they may be called something different. I know the one I submitted was.
I think nyr actually did that call for submissions.
.. Uh. I don't know why you think staff is lacking in these things, but anyone who can write two sentences can figure out how to write a sandwich description and what items needed for it. It hardly seems like the kind of work you'd need for player submissions.
Here you go.
Quote from: Nyr on July 27, 2010, 08:23:22 AM
...or (in this case) your appropriate Zalanthan equivalent.
Looking for a few items that are more Zalanthan than the word sandwich. You can even use the same items from a recipe for a sandwich so that the existing recipes get used for something good and wholesome (they may be altered just a bit, though).
What I need from you:
Pledge here to write up no more than two combination food items that would be appropriate for Zalanthas. Post here first, then e-mail me. I'm looking for about 6 people to assist for this, 2 items each. If you want to tackle a sandwich item transition, please say so in your e-mail and I'll make sure yours uses an existing recipe's materials.
Format (once you get your orders):
Crafting recipe for the item (in the case of sandwiches transitions, I will give you the basics of what materials are used)
Keywords of the item.
Short desc of the item.
Long desc of the item.
Main desc of the item.
Weight of the item.
Success echo (to the crafter) for crafting the item successfully.
Success echo (to the room) for crafting the item successfully.
Failure echo (to the crafter) for failure to craft the item successfully.
Failure echo (to the room) for failure to craft the item successfully.