I'm wondering if we might also spend CGP to raise stats or perhaps gain a starting coin bonus.
Of course, to do the stat raise, we'd need to know our stats before we create our characters. I've always favored such a thing primarily because of character description inconsistencies. The tiny grey man probably doesn't have exceptional strength, and the hulking red-eyed giant probably doesn't have average strength. I think two choices for stats could be included in your account file, and when your new character first entered the world, the next character's stats could be rolled and put on your account for access after your current character's death. By these means, your stat numbers would be concrete and you could write a character description with more accurate details based on those stats.
As far as the starting coin bonus, there are plenty of character concepts who require more coin to outfit per background than we currently get at chargen. So your warrior could be fitted as you envisioned him from the gate, and your merchant could establish a house and crafting stockpile from the beginning.
I suggest these additions to the new chargen because it seems to me that the Staff is seeking to shift the requests of many special applications to this system. It would seem to me that these suggested changes would fall under this sort of evolution of our chargen. I'd suggest one CGP per five hundred coin, and one CGP per stat descriptor (ie: good to very good). I'd also perhaps suggest a bonus CGP for reducing a stat by a descriptor, though that is perhaps not as important.
Sounds complicated.
Wouldn't it just be better to put in a request when your stats are completely out of sync with your concept? How often does that happen with prioritization (and picking a median age).
From now on, Orpah gives us all our stats.
YOU GET ABSOLUTELY INCREDIBLE
AND THE WHOLE AUDIENCE GETS ABSOLUTELY INCREDIBLE.
Let's have a system in place and in use by the playerbase before we start adding stuff to it, eh?
The starting coin idea is alright.
I think we've done enough jiggering with stats though, to be honest.
Quote from: Nyr on November 30, 2011, 12:36:36 PM
Let's have a system in place and in use by the playerbase before we start adding stuff to it, eh?
Any update on when the system might be in place? It's been a few months since the announcement, and I'm sure many of us are eagerly awaiting it.
Quote from: wizturbo on November 30, 2011, 07:54:25 PM
Quote from: Nyr on November 30, 2011, 12:36:36 PM
Let's have a system in place and in use by the playerbase before we start adding stuff to it, eh?
Any update on when the system might be in place? It's been a few months since the announcement, and I'm sure many of us are eagerly awaiting it.
While I'm as happy as most are with it (and I assume happy), I think there's going to be a period where karma is readjusted awarded/removed based on the new guidelines. This will slow its real rolling out. Also, current players will have to wait until their next character to see actual benefit.
Quote from: janeshephard on November 30, 2011, 11:13:47 AM
Sounds complicated.
Not so sure how complicated it would be. Obviously, it's not simple simple, but I can't picture it being more complicated than coding this new chargen has been.
Basically, accounts would have the following fields attached to them now: stat_roll_1, and stat_roll_2. For those of us with characters, it would be blank. When our characters died, the game would roll two stat rolls, using the same random system it does now, and fill those fields on our accounts with the raw numbers, which we would never see.
When we created a new character, chargen would display our 2 stat rolls according to our prioritization or lack of it, our race (using a multiplier), and our class (with whatever built in modifiers might be applicable). We would pick the roll we wanted in chargen instead of once in the game, and we could tailor our descriptions to match the stats if we so desired. Then we could also spend CGP to further customize those stats if we liked.
Once that character entered the game, the stat fields on our accounts would be deleted and remain empty until our characters died again, and the process would repeat itself.
Of course, as Nyr suggests, it's probably better to implement the upcoming system as it is first, and then fiddle with it. My post is mostly concerning a few neat things I would love to see added to our upcoming customization options.
When it comes, it will come. Personally I am in no rush for it to come -before- it comes, because then there will be a time warp issue.
Quote from: evilcabbage on November 30, 2011, 11:02:40 PM
When it comes, it will come. Personally I am in no rush for it to come -before- it comes, because then there will be a time warp issue.
I don't get the time warp issue, since old characters alive will not get to benefit.
Quote from: Potaje on December 01, 2011, 02:04:27 PM
Quote from: evilcabbage on November 30, 2011, 11:02:40 PM
When it comes, it will come. Personally I am in no rush for it to come -before- it comes, because then there will be a time warp issue.
I don't get the time warp issue, since old characters alive will not get to benefit.
You're absolutely correct, Potaje.
Quote from: Potaje on December 01, 2011, 02:04:27 PM
Quote from: evilcabbage on November 30, 2011, 11:02:40 PM
When it comes, it will come. Personally I am in no rush for it to come -before- it comes, because then there will be a time warp issue.
I don't get the time warp issue, since old characters alive will not get to benefit.
I think he's just making a humorjoke about time travel. (If it comes sometime before it comes, there is a causality/timeline paradox to contend with.)
Quote from: catchall on December 01, 2011, 02:46:47 PM
Quote from: Potaje on December 01, 2011, 02:04:27 PM
Quote from: evilcabbage on November 30, 2011, 11:02:40 PM
When it comes, it will come. Personally I am in no rush for it to come -before- it comes, because then there will be a time warp issue.
I don't get the time warp issue, since old characters alive will not get to benefit.
I think he's just making a humorjoke about time travel. (If it comes sometime before it comes, there is a causality/timeline paradox to contend with.)
(http://www.a-ha4ever.com/Fotos/a-ha/head.aha.jpg)
I get it now, a time warp, like this.
Quote from: Potaje on December 01, 2011, 05:24:34 PM
I get it now, a time ward, like this.
This is a time ward:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/74/Rose_Tyler.jpg/200px-Rose_Tyler.jpg)
Quote from: Old Kank on December 01, 2011, 06:00:11 PM
Quote from: Potaje on December 01, 2011, 05:24:34 PM
I get it now, a time ward, like this.
This is a time ward:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/74/Rose_Tyler.jpg/200px-Rose_Tyler.jpg)
I laughed until I almost peed.
Damn,
I hate not getting the joke.
On the other hand, I've laughed millions of times, (or at least hundreds of thousands) and never pee'd from it.
I guess is need to consider it a blessing.
Quote from: TheBadSeed on December 07, 2011, 12:41:08 AM
Damn,
I hate not getting the joke.
On the other hand, I've laughed millions of times, (or at least hundreds of thousands) and never pee'd from it.
I guess is need to consider it a blessing.
Don't worry. Sam can pee with the best of them.
after reading up on what this was about I hope this system never even goes into the game, not just your idea. Its just another way to stick it to people with no karma. Why not just make all newbies start as "useless slave" guild option where we just bow down and take it from the cool players.
Based on your post, I'm pretty sure you didn't read about it at all, because if you did, you'd realize it actually restricts players with karma more than the current system does, while arguably making it easier to aquire karma.
Quote from: Kastion on December 19, 2011, 05:54:51 AM
after reading up on what this was about I hope this system never even goes into the game, not just your idea. Its just another way to stick it to people with no karma. Why not just make all newbies start as "useless slave" guild option where we just bow down and take it from the cool players.
That's a good idea. We'll look into expanding the system in that direction. ;)
Quote from: HavokBlue on December 19, 2011, 06:21:00 AM
Based on your post, I'm pretty sure you didn't read about it at all, because if you did, you'd realize it actually restricts players with karma more than the current system does, while arguably making it easier to aquire karma.
It -might- restrict you more, but it definitely gives you slightly more awesomeness.
The only way it definitely will restrict you is if you can't manage to keep your PCs alive for the requisite period of time, or you're one of those folks with the attention span of a gnat, who suicides or stores on a bi-weekly basis.
Quote from: Synthesis on December 19, 2011, 12:25:41 PM
or you're one of those folks with the attention span of a gnat, who suicides or stores on a bi-weekly basis.
hi.... :-[
I go through a lot of PCs (76 in five years), have middling karma, and I still like the system.
Well I dont have any problem with letting people with karma start out stronger or with more money or equipment or whatever. Kick starting a character is cool with me. The problem I have with it is that my human warrior tailor is somehow inferior to your human warrior tailor because you have karma and can now mastercraft and i cannot. Its also unfair that you can take other sub guilds that raise your maximum skill levels and I cannnot just because you have karma and I dont. I dont see how this adds anything to the game other then giving players with karma quite a leg up on everyone else?
Hey Mr. Great Merchant House Fancy pants can I join you? Ohh whats that, what can I do? I can hunt stuff for you and make armor. Ohh am I a "master" armor maker? No Sir I was born inferior to the others for some reason, sorry.
Quote from: Kastion on December 19, 2011, 02:55:42 PM
Well I dont have any problem with letting people with karma start out stronger or with more money or equipment or whatever. Kick starting a character is cool with me. The problem I have with it is that my human warrior tailor is somehow inferior to your human warrior tailor because you have karma and can now mastercraft and i cannot. Its also unfair that you can take other sub guilds that raise your maximum skill levels and I cannnot just because you have karma and I dont. I dont see how this adds anything to the game other then giving players with karma quite a leg up on everyone else?
Hey Mr. Great Merchant House Fancy pants can I join you? Ohh whats that, what can I do? I can hunt stuff for you and make armor. Ohh am I a "master" armor maker? No Sir I was born inferior to the others for some reason, sorry.
I think this is a pretty good point. I think the staff may be flexible on allowing upgrades so to speak
sparingly and, probably at a cost to your available karma, if at some point your non-master crafter armormaker warrior wants to be a master crafter. Newbies just gotta suck it up until they get a karma point or two. Roleplay well. After all, a non-master crafter warrior is still a potentially kick-ass warrior.
The stuff you
don't have a problem with isn't going to happen. There are no plans to boost stats, give out money, or equipment with karma.
The stuff that is there that is being used
now:
Effective guidelines for staff to follow in reviewing karma.
Quote from: Help Karma
Staff base their decisions to award karma on a set of categories. Each
category has a list of criteria which players need to meet in order to gain
a karma point. No more than two karma points can be awarded in any one
category area and the longevity category is limited to one karma point
only.
Categories:
- Longevity
- Good communication
- Ability to roleplay
- Proven understanding of magick and its place in the game world
- Proven understanding of cultural and racial structures
- Contributes to the game
- Leadership
Stuff that will come down in the future:
--Character Generation Points will be used to delineate "current usable" karma. CGP regenerates at a set rate (1 CGP per x time period that passes) up to the amount of karma the player has.
--CGP can be used for a karma guild or race.
--CGP can be used for new subguilds.
--CGP can be used for skill boosts.
Your problem is not with the new system. Your problem seems to be that karma exists at all and that you don't have any, therefore it is unfair. There are ways to get your karma reviewed; if you haven't already, you should take a look at putting in an account notes request to have your karma reviewed. There are also ways to increase your visibility to staff so that we take note of you (see "Reports").
I can just imagine a branch of Salarr with just a bunch of hunters and armor crafters able to craft master recipes, or the Kadius branch with just hunters who can also master tailor.. Do they get paid as both hunters and tailors, then? Talk about saving money if not, I'm in! :P
Quote from: Kastion on December 19, 2011, 02:55:42 PM
Hey Mr. Great Merchant House Fancy pants can I join you? Ohh whats that, what can I do? I can hunt stuff for you and make armor. Ohh am I a "master" armor maker? No Sir I was born inferior to the others for some reason, sorry.
Easily fixed by picking "merchant" or special apping (even now--and then).
Quote from: Ktavialt on December 19, 2011, 03:18:57 PM
I think the staff may be flexible on allowing upgrades so to speak sparingly and, probably at a cost to your available karma, if at some point your non-master crafter armormaker warrior wants to be a master crafter. Newbies just gotta suck it up until they get a karma point or two. Roleplay well. After all, a non-master crafter warrior is still a potentially kick-ass warrior.
The system proposed is not a matter of staff allowing upgrades to existing characters. That's a big NO. It's a matter of implementing an automated system that requires a player to spend CGP that regenerates. Reviewing account notes will still be manually done.
Also, special apps, as always, for anything that falls outside of your karma range (within reason or within guidelines).
There's a whole thread about this in which only Producers responded (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,41933.0.html). I know it's a lot to wade through but it is out there.
Quote from: Kaiden on December 19, 2011, 03:34:29 PM
I can just imagine a branch of Salarr with just a bunch of hunters and armor crafters able to craft master recipes, or the Kadius branch with just hunters who can also master tailor.. Do they get paid as both hunters and tailors, then? Talk about saving money if not, I'm in! :P
This could feasibly happen now with special applications, for what it's worth.
Quote from: Nyr on December 19, 2011, 03:26:34 PM
The stuff you don't have a problem with isn't going to happen. There are no plans to boost stats, give out money, or equipment with karma.
The stuff that is there that is being used now:
Effective guidelines for staff to follow in reviewing karma.
Quote from: Help Karma
Staff base their decisions to award karma on a set of categories. Each
category has a list of criteria which players need to meet in order to gain
a karma point. No more than two karma points can be awarded in any one
category area and the longevity category is limited to one karma point
only.
Categories:
- Longevity
- Good communication
- Ability to roleplay
- Proven understanding of magick and its place in the game world
- Proven understanding of cultural and racial structures
- Contributes to the game
- Leadership
Stuff that will come down in the future:
--Character Generation Points will be used to delineate "current usable" karma. CGP regenerates at a set rate (1 CGP per x time period that passes) up to the amount of karma the player has.
--CGP can be used for a karma guild or race.
--CGP can be used for new subguilds.
--CGP can be used for skill boosts.
Your problem is not with the new system. Your problem seems to be that karma exists at all and that you don't have any, therefore it is unfair. There are ways to get your karma reviewed; if you haven't already, you should take a look at putting in an account notes request to have your karma reviewed. There are also ways to increase your visibility to staff so that we take note of you (see "Reports").
no i dont have a problem with the karma system, i have a problem with what i said i have a problem with. In my opinion the karma system is not only ok but needed. I see the need for limiting powerful roles to people who are trustworthy and wont abuse them. I also see it being needed to limit what type of character is in the game. The problem I have as I stated is that my human warrior tailor is someone different from your human warrior tailor just because you have karma.
how about I give an idea to help fix the things I have a problem with. Why not allow 0 karma to get 1 or 2 kcg points as well but they still have to unlock races and classes to use it on. So every now and then they would have the opportunity to play a special subguild or whatever else. You could compensate the other karma levels by bumping them up or whatever. As I understand it takes time to replenish these kcg points so its not going to be abused by anyone bumping it up a little bit. If you have to slow down the rates you regenerate them a little bit to compensate. I think that would be a fair solution to my objections.
If you want a couple of extra points to play with so that you can spend them on a particular subguild, you'll still be able to special-app for up to 3 points over your current limit. So what you want to do will be achievable within the system.
Quote from: Kastion on December 19, 2011, 03:52:06 PM
no i dont have a problem with the karma system, i have a problem with what i said i have a problem with. In my opinion the karma system is not only ok but needed. I see the need for limiting powerful roles to people who are trustworthy and wont abuse them. I also see it being needed to limit what type of character is in the game. The problem I have as I stated is that my human warrior tailor is someone different from your human warrior tailor just because you have karma.
Okay, let's look at the scenarios in which things could possibly be different between the two characters.
Scenario 1:you have a warrior/tailor and have no karma
other guy has a warrior/tailor and 3 karma
Nothing changes unless the other player chooses to use that karma at character generation to boost skills of his warrior/tailor.
Scenario 2:you have a warrior/tailor and have no karma
other guy has a merchant/thug and has 3 karma
He can mastercraft provided he masters a crafting skill. Of course, you could, too, provided you were a merchant.
Scenario 3:you have a warrior/tailor and have no karma
other guy has a warrior with a subguild (for instance, master tailor)
Now the other guy can mastercraft clothing AND be a warrior. He is truly a force to be reckoned with. You could do the same thing with a special application, provided it is approved.
What we're saying is that you can use a special application now for skill boosts, just like you'll be able to do so then. Now, yes--one solution would be to give everyone CGP; it is not a solution we are going to pursue, though. This system as proposed is only unfair if karma levels are immutable. They are not.
Quote from: Kastion on December 19, 2011, 03:52:06 PM
The problem I have as I stated is that my human warrior tailor is someone different from your human warrior tailor just because you have karma.
To a very large degree, every pc in the game is only as skilled/smart as the player behind them. That will always be the biggest difference between pc's in terms of power balance. Some players get behind a 5 day ranger and reek havoc, other players become a bumbling mess with a 30 day warrior, a lamb to the slaughter.
With Arm's policies on sharing OOC knowledge and code info, the players who have figured out the most and utilize that knowledge the most effectively will always be the most dangerous characters in the game, whatever karma level they're playing at.
The upcoming changes are just tasty treats to have fun with, IMO.
Quote from: Talia on December 19, 2011, 04:03:01 PM
If you want a couple of extra points to play with so that you can spend them on a particular subguild, you'll still be able to special-app for up to 3 points over your current limit. So what you want to do will be achievable within the system.
Hypothetically, if I had 8 cgp, I could special app a psionicist with an additional 3 points spread out however I wanted? Or is that not likely to happen?
Yes, I realize it would be difficult to accrue 8 cgp on my own and even less likely the app would be approved, but is it possible?
Quote from: Kinther on December 19, 2011, 07:00:40 PM
Hypothetically, if I had 8 cgp, I could special app a psionicist with an additional 3 points spread out however I wanted? Or is that not likely to happen?
Yes, I realize it would be difficult to accrue 8 cgp on my own and even less likely the app would be approved, but is it possible?
Yes, this is hypothetically possible. However, there are still limits to the special-app process; for example, you can't play a mul magicker, you can't play a non-human psionicist, and so on. Regardless of how much karma any particular player has, there are some things which will always be not playable.
Quote from: Kastion on December 19, 2011, 02:55:42 PM
Well I dont have any problem with letting people with karma start out stronger or with more money or equipment or whatever. Kick starting a character is cool with me. The problem I have with it is that my human warrior tailor is somehow inferior to your human warrior tailor because you have karma and can now mastercraft and i cannot. Its also unfair that you can take other sub guilds that raise your maximum skill levels and I cannnot just because you have karma and I dont. I dont see how this adds anything to the game other then giving players with karma quite a leg up on everyone else?
Hey Mr. Great Merchant House Fancy pants can I join you? Ohh whats that, what can I do? I can hunt stuff for you and make armor. Ohh am I a "master" armor maker? No Sir I was born inferior to the others for some reason, sorry.
Now, Armageddon is not a job, but I'm a little confused about your reasoning here. Rest assured, you are not alone in your line of thinking, but I still don't get it. Do you feel as though you should be as entitled to something as somebody who has played ten times longer than you? Or, in real world terms, should you have as much a shot at being a manager at your job as the guy who has worked there ten years longer than you and is just as skilled as you?
You need to realize first that the karma system is a staff-awarded indication of Armageddon integration. To earn these points you have displayed a willingness and ability to lead (well or not), live long enough to create stability in an OOCLY transient population, keep staff up to date with your character, roleplayed well (
most importantly, in flow with documentation and the world, while allowing slight variances. Also, emoting does not equal roleplay), have in depth understanding of social culture, racial pressures and nuances, and magick and all of its facets, and finally, the desire and ability to contribute to the game, both oocly and icly.
All of those criteria take time to accomplish, and even more time for staff to notice and validate. Karma is not a 'cool kids' club. Karma is simply a reward for x years of playing time, and an indication of staff trust. Staff is simply saying to that player, "We trust you, following
years of observation, to be capable of making a few of your own choices in generating your character."
Unless you are the sort of person who automatically feels entitled to everything, this should not really be a problem.
Also, you should try to avoid feeling as though you should bow at the feet of your Armageddon elders.
You are the one that sounds entitled, not even going to bother arguing with you. If you really think you deserve something more then me on a GAME because you have been around longer... I dont know what to say
Quote from: Kastion on December 20, 2011, 04:16:15 PM
....you deserve something more then me ... because you have been around longer...
You can fill in the blanks with variables from almost any aspect of life and that statement rings mostly truth.
to add:
Longevity is ONE possible karma. You have twelve other possible karma bumps to get you up to the total of eight.
Moot point.
Quote from: Kastion on December 20, 2011, 04:16:15 PMIf you really think you deserve something more then me on a GAME because you have been around longer... I dont know what to say
Isn't that the default paradigm for persistent-world multi-player games, though?
When you sign up for World of Warcraft, you can't get flying mounts right off the bat.
When you play EVE Online, your first ship isn't a battlecruiser.
Even shorter instanced-based games like Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3 have upgrades that must be unlocked with experience/time.
this has nothing to do with what you earn playing the game. As my posts on this topic have allready stated I think its unfair that you character that is the exact same as mine is some how enhanced through karma. I dont have a problem with unlocking new races/guilds that type of thing. But my warrior/tailor is somehow inferior to your warrior/tailor because you have karma is my beef.
What's wrong with that, though?
There's nothing stopping you from earning karma yourself and then making a warrior/threadmaster.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on December 20, 2011, 04:36:46 PM
What's wrong with that, though?
There's nothing stopping you from earning karma yourself and then making a warrior/threadmaster.
why does that line of thought creep up so much in life? half the worlds problems are caused by thinking like that
Man, when you've been playing for several years and a) you've grown up a little and b) you have karma, you're gonna look back on this thread and feel real stupid.
p.s. my RL subguild is threadmaster
Quote from: Synthesis on December 20, 2011, 04:40:48 PM
Man, when you've been playing for several years and a) you've grown up a little and b) you have karma, you're gonna look back on this thread and feel real stupid.
p.s. my RL subguild is threadmaster
Ya im real stupid for having a differing opinion. You guys gotta just be trolling me now.
Quote from: Kastion on December 20, 2011, 04:43:16 PM
Ya im real stupid for having a differing opinion. You guys gotta just be trolling me now.
I don't believe they are trolling you. (If I did, I would be making noises about locking the thread.) I believe they are offering their perspectives on the issue, as veteran players of many years. Once upon a time, it is even likely they felt as you do now.
While I sympathize with the socio-economic sentiment, I don't think it really applies here. We all started at zero karma (well, with the possible exception of those who were around before the karma system), and we all earned what we have in similar ways. These days, with the karma guidelines being both formalized and published, things are even more egalitarian.
Seriously, what aspects about earning karma are so difficult and/or offensive?
Quote from: Talia on December 20, 2011, 04:45:48 PMOnce upon a time, it is even likely they felt as you do now.
So true. There are several of my older posts that really make me cringe. Ideas and complaints that I thought were brilliant and completely justified... but really were born out of a narrow perspective.
(That said, I still believe that there should be a subguild with Cavilish... maybe this new system presents an opportunity to insert one. ;D )
I guess I'm also not getting the problem with this. I suspect you're looking at it from an odd perspective. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying: All my 0 karma warrior/tailors will not be equal to your 3 karma warrior/tailors, which, if I'm not mistaken, is wrong.
My 3 karma warrior/tailor will not have any extra skills or abilities any different from your 0 karma warrior/tailor, unless I want a skill boost. (Something you don't have a problem with). All the caps are the same, so far as I understand, and the starting levels are the same (unless I get a skill boost to my starting skills).
What the admins and others are saying, that you have a problem with is:
My 0 karma warrior/tailor will never be able to Mastercraft like your 3 karma warrior/threadmaster. Well, yeah. Duh. They picked a karma subguild. If you have no karma, then no, you won't be able to mastercraft pretty princess dresses off the bat. (*Unless you play a tailor, which is a 0 karma guild. But then you can't be a warrior.)
Solutions:
1. Get karma by the means posted above. Problems you have with the karma system notwithstanding, it's not difficult to accrue -some- karma provided you: follow the game rules, mostly adhere to game documentation, manage to play one moderately long-lived character, send in character reports.
Or
2. Special app a warrior/threadmaster. Granted, you might not be approved for it, though being that the potential for abuse is probably not that high, and keeping in mind you are only allowed a certain number of special apps per year, I don't see that special-apping something like this would be terribly difficult. Yes, it might take a little longer to get approved, but special apps are there to let lower karma players try higher karma roles or to let people request a character with skills or abilities different than the norm. Like a mastercrafting warrior/tailor, which can be currently special-apped if you really want one that badly.
What you're trying to say is since your class/subguild is not equal to a class/different subguild this is not fair. Well... no, it's not. It's like complaining your warrior/tailor can't weave baskets. Or at least that's what I'm getting out of it.
Kastion, I think it's fair to say this: prior to these new options, karma was mostly not used as a reward. It was used to (a) protect the game from inexperienced players wielding powerful or hard-to-play guilds and races and (b) to keep magick (and escaped muls) relatively rare.
The specific option to do mastercrafting with a subguild, which doesn't translate directly to Uber Combat Power, does feel more like a reward for good play than like a balancing mechanism.
Skilling up at chargen or putting weapon skills in a subguild, now, those are legitimate newbie-power issues. The world doesn't need more crazed dwarf attacks.
The explanations for how to obtain karma have not been my experience at all. I have played the game for over 2 and a half years, I think that should be clarified.
A number of subguild options will be available to 'purchase' with your CGP. The cost of purchase will vary dependant on the subguild chosen. These subguilds will have higher caps than existing subguild options but will not exceed caps placed on similar main guild options. The subguilds are designed to increase the lifestyle and playability options available to a character.
Extended subguilds include options such as "Master Tailor" which will allow a character to excel in the area of tailoring, including producing work at a mastercraft levell. For the more adventurous Cutpurse or Master of Defense might be more applicable. Subguilds will be available for those who wish to trade, craft, fight, roam or follow a path to magick.
Players will also have the option to spend their CGP 'bumping' their base skills. This will give them the option to bump starting skills one 'level' of mastery per CGP spent. Only starting skills are available to be bumped (so if you branch something from using CGP, you can't spend CGP on the branched skill). Skills that are available to everyone with training (like ride, pilot and watch) would be available for bumping. Some skills will be limited/restricted from being bumped. For instance, weapon skills will not be bump-able more than one or two at most. Offense/defense will not be an option.
It seems like alot of you havent read what the official plans are. They will definently be making karma characters stronger over their karma deficient counter parts. Thats not even in question. I will once again state that I dont see any different between a "karma" subguild and a regular subguild. I see that a player with karma gets to be stronger then my character. Its the same subguild with tweaks to give them an advantage over me. I dont see how much clearer I can be. If you dont have a problem with being stronger then someone else because you have more karma then cool. I unfortunately do, and all of your explanations have done nothing to convince me otherwise. They have infact made me feel like you all WANT to have more advantages over the average player for whatever reason. Cool whatever I will just keep trucking in game and doing my thing. Im done arguing here because this is pointless.
It's always been this way... all non-mundane races and classes require karma and can definitely be stronger than out of the box warriors.
I suspect the reason none of us are really getting your complaint is because you're approaching this issue from a flawed perspective.
Quote from: Kastion on December 20, 2011, 04:38:16 PM
Quote from: Marauder Moe on December 20, 2011, 04:36:46 PM
What's wrong with that, though?
There's nothing stopping you from earning karma yourself and then making a warrior/threadmaster.
why does that line of thought creep up so much in life? half the worlds problems are caused by thinking like that
Ever asked for account notes?
Quote from: Nyr on December 20, 2011, 05:50:47 PM
Quote from: Kastion on December 20, 2011, 04:38:16 PM
Quote from: Marauder Moe on December 20, 2011, 04:36:46 PM
What's wrong with that, though?
There's nothing stopping you from earning karma yourself and then making a warrior/threadmaster.
why does that line of thought creep up so much in life? half the worlds problems are caused by thinking like that
Ever asked for account notes?
yep and they had no feedback at all after 2 years of playing
Quote from: Kastion on December 20, 2011, 05:58:53 PM
yep and they had no feedback at all after 2 years of playing
You don't think it counts that the resolver of your account notes request gave you a few tips on what you could do to come to the attention of the staff, in the future? Huh.
That's disingenuous. You were given specific feedback, please reread it (even a blurb on why you had few account notes).
Anyway, back to karma. Yes, some people have more trust from us. They earned it. They also aren't guaranteed to keep it if they screw up.
Kastion,
As you look this over you will see there aren't a whole lot of notes. Some suggestions I would make to you to help bring yourself to the attention of staff:
Submit regular character reports. Whether or not you are in a clan you can submit character report requests and help staff keep up with what you are doing and what drives your character.
Add biographies to your character. You can do this in game or through the web interface. Staff can view these and also help them understand your character better.
Join a clan. Joining a clan can get you more involved in plots and gets you directly noticed by staff running those clans.
I had no comments what so ever about if I was doing things wrong or right. No specific feedback whatsoever. Just generic post that looks like something you post on every single reply.
i have since sent in some reports although not regularly enough. I admittedly dont mess with biographies because im not much of a writer. Join a clan? Ive been in a clan on every character that ive had more then 2 days.
Quote from: Kastion on December 20, 2011, 06:10:56 PM
I had no comments what so ever about if I was doing things wrong or right. No specific feedback whatsoever. Just generic post that looks like something you post on every single reply.
i have since sent in some reports although not regularly enough. I admittedly dont mess with biographies because im not much of a writer. Join a clan? Ive been in a clan on every character that ive had more then 2 days.
You've sent in 1 report since then, not "some." Also, when staff says "join a clan," we mean "join a clan and stay in it a while with a character who lives," not join a clan and stay in it a week, then jump to another clan, and then repeat. How do you expect that staff will get you know your characters, and you as a player, if you don't give us the opportunity to observe? When you jump from a GMH to the Byn to a noble house and back again, you've just crossed through three clan groups, which is 3 totally different sets of staff. I get that you are frustrated, but you are frustrated about something that is in your own control. Staff aren't superhuman, we can't read your brainz, and we're not really in all places all the time. If you want something from us (karma), then you need to do what you need to do to get it, not expect that it will automagickally come to you just because you've been hanging around the game for a while.
I'd recommend asking again for notes since the last time. I'll be glad to elaborate on several points and look over things since the last report.
Joined a gmh realized the clan was filled with people I would not get along with, resigned after 3 days. Went to the byn for training for a year, completed that year like normal people. Went indy for a while, then decided to join a military organisation, shit happened I died. You make it out to be like I never stayed anywhere for more then a week when that is completely false. How many characters have I even had since that account note? I know you know the answer and make it to look like I have had a ton when that is not true. I have sent in more then 1 report, they must have been BEFORE the account note then so that makes this even more stupid. I know I need to improve on stuff but to make it look like ive put forward no effort is a complete farce. This is just causing me more frustration then you think and im starting to get pissed off. So lets just leave it at this and I will try to "Work" on this stuff.
Three things that don't lie:
The request tool history
mud email history
Shakira's hips
You will want to take this to the request tool.
I'm sorry for the tone of my post, Kas. Perhaps I do feel entitled to some extent - pardon that. But I've been here since 99 or 00, so perhaps I feel like I earned it. When I did not have karma, I did not feel deprived. So many stories are available with the stock options - collectively more in fact, honestly, than with the super powers.
Quote from: Kastion on December 20, 2011, 05:07:40 PM
Cool whatever I will just keep trucking in game and doing my thing.
Should've been your first response.
If you meet a warrior/tailor who can kick your ass, are you going to assume he's some karma-beefed character? And just because someone uses karma to buff up their PC doesn't mean they're buffing them up to be godly. A warrior/tailor with poor strength spends some karma beefing it up to average - You roll a normal PC warrior/tailor who starts with AI strength. Are you going to suddenly say, "Hey - that guy spent karma on his PC - He should be stronger than me"?
Quote from: Nyr on December 20, 2011, 06:07:02 PM
Anyway, back to karma. Yes, some people have more trust from us. They earned it. They also aren't guaranteed to keep it if they screw up.
Nyr's post is pretty self-explanatory. Especially the bold-text portion.
If someone with Karma makes a warrior for the sole purpose of PK'ing, then uses karma to beef up the stats - Unless there is some purposeful roleplay behind it, I doubt staff'll let it slide.
Just out of curiosity, with the new system in place will the prices for certain guilds be revisited? It kind of sucks that a Mul will never be able to have an extended sub-guild.
Quote from: NOFUN on January 09, 2012, 04:29:16 PM
Just out of curiosity, with the new system in place will the prices for certain guilds be revisited? It kind of sucks that a Mul will never be able to have an extended sub-guild.
Anybody with mul karma can special-app a mul with a 3-CXP subguild.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on January 09, 2012, 04:32:11 PM
Anybody with mul karma can special-app a mul with a 3-CXP subguild.
Brytta is correct.
Kastion, maybe this has been suggested, but in my early days, I found that special apping a low-karma class or race, and then playing that race or class well, resulted in being noticed by staff, and sometimes being awarded the karma for said race or class.
Karma always let's you start out stronger then ordinary people. Some Karma let's you play stronger races. Other karma gives you access to magick and psionics. These new subguilds let's you play more wellrounded characters. Yes you'll still need to play a merchant if you want to get a master tailor if you don't have enough karma. However as a merchant you can branch into jewelry, furniture, stonework and other items. Take advantage of your strengths and with a bit of patience it won't matter if you 7 karma or no karma.
People that roleplay well will always get more options. We don't try to balance the different options like D&D does. Instead it's simply restricted. Want more options, roleplay better. After 10 years I still have plenty of room for improvement. I fully accept they're better at certain facets of the game and I love that they're rewarded for it. I could probably get a karma boost but with the new system coming in I'm sure everyone and their dog are putting in requests for reviews. I'm happy to simply wait for now. I'm sure next time I earn my next point my karma will be double checked.
As for the initial idea of boosting scores during character generation, nothing gets saved between aborted character creation attempts so people can keep aborting until they get AI stats. We can't keep the same stats between attempts because different races and classes need different stats.
What's more it moves towards a point buy system which leads to optimising. We already have enough of that with some people playing certain races for certain classes, a situation Instrongly dislike.
Quote from: John on January 10, 2012, 12:23:36 AM
Karma always let's you start out stronger then ordinary people. Some Karma let's you play stronger races. Other karma gives you access to magick and psionics.
Not true.
Many of these guilds start out weaker by far.
Magickers can't magick effectively to start (and are often hunted) psionists can't necessary explode your head off the starting gate (note: I do not know if psionists actually can explode your head) and muls are hunted and are unable to enter civilized areas without support / guile / game-play savy.
These roles become powerful over time, perhaps. To me, a frequent player of karma classes/races the opportunity you gain from karma is the ability to explore the mindset of these odd creatures in contrast to the rest of the normal civilization.
That said, the simplicity and beauty of a "regular" merchant or "regular" warrior is anything but and some of THOSE characters are really the most interesting as they are the average joes that struggle tooth and nail in this blasted land - and their lives are anything but simple, their situations anything but easy or boring.
Karma doesn't represent strength so much as level of difficulty, roleplay restrictions, and abuse potential.
Quote from: Yam on January 10, 2012, 08:16:11 AM
Karma doesn't represent strength so much as level of difficulty, roleplay restrictions, and abuse potential.
And also rarity in the world, I've been told.
Also penis size.
Quote from: Kastion on December 20, 2011, 06:10:56 PM
I had no comments what so ever about if I was doing things wrong or right. No specific feedback whatsoever. Just generic post that looks like something you post on every single reply.
I think I only have three or four comments total after 2+ years of playing. They edit out some stuff before you get the notes.
Character reports are a good thing. At the very least it shows you're trying to RP within Zalanthas.
I don't like the idea of adding money/stat boots at character creation because this begins to create an atmosphere where new players feel left out because they think, founded or unfounded, that they can't make a warrior that can compete with a vet's warrior because the vet bought a strength boost.
I think it's easier to accept that a magicker will have terrible power because they are strange creatures. However, when other warriors are systematically more powerful than you, it is discouraging because it gives a feeling that the cards are stacked against you.
When old players further say that they are entitled to make extra strong/agile characters it only reinforces these notions.
To be clear, the power reward for playing a long time is knowledge of the game world. Any vet should agree that makes you more powerful than any stat boost could. Asking for karma based stat boosts hurts the game because it makes our atmosphere less egalitarian.
Quote from: Drayab on January 10, 2012, 02:31:16 PM
I don't like the idea of adding money/stat boots at character creation because this begins to create an atmosphere where new players feel left out because they think, founded or unfounded, that they can't make a warrior that can compete with a vet's warrior because the vet bought a strength boost.
I think it's easier to accept that a magicker will have terrible power because they are strange creatures. However, when other warriors are systematically more powerful than you, it is discouraging because it gives a feeling that the cards are stacked against you.
When old players further say that they are entitled to make extra strong/agile characters it only reinforces these notions.
To be clear, the power reward for playing a long time is knowledge of the game world. Any vet should agree that makes you more powerful than any stat boost could. Asking for karma based stat boosts hurts the game because it makes our atmosphere less egalitarian.
There aren't stat or starting coin boosts. Just skill boosts, which over time will equal out with the skills of a newbie if they both continue to play and progress.
I've also not seen anyone say anything about older players being entitled to any extra boosts outside of karma options, which arguably is necessary since these options are at times very lonely for the player, hard to roleplay properly and require a lot more trust by staff due to the potential for abuse.
Lastly, the world of Zalanthas is harsh and with few exceptions I wager to say that there are far fewer situations where people are true equals than the fact that there is -always- someone more powerful than you. Coded or implied through IC gained power and position.
Lest we forget the first post of the thread.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on November 30, 2011, 09:55:34 AM
I'm wondering if we might also spend CGP to raise stats or perhaps gain a starting coin bonus.
Also, to be clear, when I say egalitarian, I am referring to relations among players, not among player characters.
I think boosting starting coin seems OK. Like skills, and unlike stats, coin can be raised by playing. Seems like it would be fair if, say, every CGP spent gave you something in the realm of 50-100% extra starting coin.
Bumping stats... I can kind of see the danger there, but I'm not steadfastly against the idea.
Quote from: Nyr on December 19, 2011, 03:26:34 PM
There are no plans to boost stats, give out money, or equipment with karma.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on January 10, 2012, 02:53:03 PM
I think boosting starting coin seems OK. Like skills, and unlike stats, coin can be raised by playing. Seems like it would be fair if, say, every CGP spent gave you something in the realm of 50-100% extra starting coin.
Bumping stats... I can kind of see the danger there.
Not a fan of stat modification in the least myself. Prioritization is fine, and that is where it should stop.
Quote from: Dan on January 10, 2012, 02:56:33 PM
Quote from: Marauder Moe on January 10, 2012, 02:53:03 PM
I think boosting starting coin seems OK. Like skills, and unlike stats, coin can be raised by playing. Seems like it would be fair if, say, every CGP spent gave you something in the realm of 50-100% extra starting coin.
Bumping stats... I can kind of see the danger there.
Not a fan of stat modification in the least myself. Prioritization is fine, and that is where it should stop.
+1
At the very least, there's a few limits I can agree on. Like, you shouldn't be able to exceed racial maximums by spending points, and there should be more restrictions and/or higher costs for boosting higher prioritized stats, we such a system to be considered.
Yes, both of those suggestions sound reasonable, but on a more fundamental level, what do you think is the benefit to the game of letting karma'd players have a statistical advantage over newbies?
Those characters will be more likely to survive, and continue being awesome? ;D
Quote from: Drayab on January 10, 2012, 03:12:40 PM
Yes, both of those suggestions sound reasonable, but on a more fundamental level, what do you think is the benefit to the game of letting karma'd players have a statistical advantage over newbies?
This is a very good point.
Regardless, Nyr has already stated they have no plans to boost stats or give out money/equipment for karma. Why beat a dead horse?
Just because there are no plans. Doesn't mean there can't be plans in the future.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on January 10, 2012, 03:42:24 PM
Just because there are no plans. Doesn't mean there can't be plans in the future.
There are no plans to have future plans for this, either.
Quote from: Nyr on January 10, 2012, 03:54:14 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on January 10, 2012, 03:42:24 PM
Just because there are no plans. Doesn't mean there can't be plans in the future.
There are no plans to have future plans for this, either.
Just because there are no plans for no plans for future plans... oh, whats that? Yes it does mean that exactly? Oh.
I'd like to see the dust settle a bit on the current changes before too much more is done, personally. They haven't even begun the test phase for the 2nd half of the new extended subguilds so far as I am aware (paths of magick subguilds).
I don't ever want to see karma used for coin/stats. I do want to see a way of making sure my lithe sword fighting tribal actually has decent agility and str though. There's no guarantee of any of that except picking a median age and hoping your rolls don't suck.
Quote from: janeshephard on January 10, 2012, 04:05:42 PM
I don't ever want to see karma used for coin/stats. I do want to see a way of making sure my lithe sword fighting tribal actually has decent agility and str though. There's no guarantee of any of that except picking a median age and hoping your rolls don't suck.
Prioritize agility or strength and you should be fine. Or prioritize nothing and let the chips fall where they may. If you just want "decent," prioritization really makes it easy to attain that for the stats that matter for your concept unless you want all of them to be amazing.
Anyone else just find a stat system incongruous with the sort of roleplaying we do here?
Not really. Assuming that you mean something along the lines of: "For all our talk about fairness the stat system sure is unfair" ... then I think it's important to segregate the game from the community when we're talking about being fair.
The community takes great pains to be fair to the other people in it. The game does not. The stat rolls aren't "fair" to the characters in the game. Some characters end up having more coded advantage than others by virtue of chance. But the community is perfectly fair, because the chance to get those rockin' stats is the same for everyone. The house isn't stacking the deck in anyone's favor.
Nah, I refer to the extra effort required to pretend that stat rolls don't have any effect on the role you play. Better would be rolls for less specific resources that can be distributed as the character demands.
Quote from: Dalmeth on January 10, 2012, 06:43:07 PM
Nah, I refer to the extra effort required to pretend that stat rolls don't have any effect on the role you play. Better would be rolls for less specific resources that can be distributed as the character demands.
Your general endurance is good, your endurance during mudsex is absolutely incredible, your ability to ride long distances in a saddle is below average, your general agility is above average, your ability to catch casually tossed or flung objects is exceptional, your ability to walk home while totally plastered is poor, your general strength is very good, your ability to lift women is absolutely incredible, your arm strength is extremely good, your penis size is absolutely incredible, your general wisdom is poor, your ability to figure out if you're being conned is absolutely incredible, your common sense is good, your ability to count is absolutely incredible, and your ability to capitalize or punctuate is poor.
Quote from: Dalmeth on January 10, 2012, 06:43:07 PM
Nah, I refer to the extra effort required to pretend that stat rolls don't have any effect on the role you play. Better would be rolls for less specific resources that can be distributed as the character demands.
I do think this is why the prioritize command was added during char-gen.
Edited to make sense.
Quote from: Wolfsong on January 10, 2012, 06:50:43 PM
Quote from: Dalmeth on January 10, 2012, 06:43:07 PM
Nah, I refer to the extra effort required to pretend that stat rolls don't have any effect on the role you play. Better would be rolls for less specific resources that can be distributed as the character demands.
Your general endurance is good, your endurance during mudsex is absolutely incredible, your ability to ride long distances in a saddle is below average, your general agility is above average, your ability to catch casually tossed or flung objects is exceptional, your ability to walk home while totally plastered is poor, your general strength is very good, your ability to lift women is absolutely incredible, your arm strength is extremely good, your penis size is absolutely incredible, your general wisdom is poor, your ability to figure out if you're being conned is absolutely incredible, your common sense is good, your ability to count is absolutely incredible, and your ability to capitalize or punctuate is poor.
I wish I could sig all that.
I like the changes, I mean, the one thing that's always made armageddon so much fun for me is how unfair it is.
A sorc could probably kill my pickpocket five times over without breaking a sweat, but that for me is what adds a danger element. In the past it's been, this guy has disarmed me, therefore I don't need to worry about being backstabbed or getting shot in the face with a fireball.
Now I can't OOCLY be sure if that's the truth or not, but I remember when I first started playing I made characters with the intention of winning. Half-elves with a plot in mind of KEELING THE HIGHLORD and building thier own city state. Each time my characters died, got maimed, my goals slowly started to become more realistic.
This might just be the case for me, but I'm almost certain if I started out with a super powerful PC I'd probably be a bigger hack and slash twink than I am at the moment. But hey, if a player has experience roleplaying before, they'll probably get a staffer's attention sooner or later.
Just my opinion though, certain PC's being more talented than others sounds like a good thing to me.
On stat boosts: Someone has to play the underdog, newer players with less karma should be those, you earn your way out of that position with time and effort into the game.
On coin boosts: Why the hell not? If you want to start a character that comes from a wealthy-ish background then it will balance out that your character has more starting coin but a rubbisher skillset (because they haven't had to do much for themselves). It would make starting wealthier characters a more viable option, but they would be weaker. Don't see a problem there.
Though as it has been stated that there are absolutely no plans for either of these, I'm slightly confused as to why it's being debated!!
Also, what changes have occurred recently? I'm so out of the loop.
Quote from: Maso on February 08, 2012, 02:23:53 PM
Also, what changes have occurred recently? I'm so out of the loop.
Major announced changesChanges to the Karma System (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,41934.0.html) -- karma measurements are in place and in use for account notes reviews. However, we have only implemented special-apped extended subguilds and skill bumps at this time (see more on that in the next point).
You can special app for an extended subguild or for skill boosts. (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,42571.0.html) All of the non-magickal extended subguilds are open for a special application.
There's lots more unrelated to code but these two are the big ones lately.
Quote from: Nyr on February 08, 2012, 02:37:14 PM
Quote from: Maso on February 08, 2012, 02:23:53 PM
Also, what changes have occurred recently? I'm so out of the loop.
Major announced changes
Changes to the Karma System (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,41934.0.html) -- karma measurements are in place and in use for account notes reviews. However, we have only implemented special-apped extended subguilds and skill bumps at this time (see more on that in the next point).
You can special app for an extended subguild or for skill boosts. (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,42571.0.html) All of the non-magickal extended subguilds are open for a special application.
There's lots more unrelated to code but these two are the big ones lately.
Thanks for clarifying. Nyr, is CGP expenditure currently in game or are you all awaiting the code changes before that's in place?
Here's my suggestion for stats: allow spending a CGP for an extra reroll self. I guess that makes reroll undo a little more complex but whatever.
Quote from: Nyr on February 08, 2012, 02:37:14 PM
Quote from: Maso on February 08, 2012, 02:23:53 PM
Also, what changes have occurred recently? I'm so out of the loop.
Major announced changes
Changes to the Karma System (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,41934.0.html) -- karma measurements are in place and in use for account notes reviews. However, we have only implemented special-apped extended subguilds and skill bumps at this time (see more on that in the next point).
You can special app for an extended subguild or for skill boosts. (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,42571.0.html) All of the non-magickal extended subguilds are open for a special application.
There's lots more unrelated to code but these two are the big ones lately.
Oh that's brilliant. Thank you. :)
Does that mean we will have a simple way of checking our exact karma points etc? If we are to be possibly spending them?
Quote from: Maso on February 08, 2012, 02:23:53 PM
On stat boosts: Someone has to play the underdog, newer players with less karma should be those, you earn your way out of that position with time and effort into the game.
Experienced players already have an advantage over newbies in the form of game world knowledge. It boggles my mind why people think they also need hard-coded, statistical advantages. Not only do you not need it to successfully smack newbies around, but it does nothing to make the game better. In fact, I can imagine a newbie feeling discouraged because they have the impression that they keep losing fights because their character is gimped. That could chase new players away, when we always need more newbies.
It could be argued that new players haven't yet proved that they can be trusted to have stat boosts etc. It's exactly the same as having an advantage because you play a mul or a sorc except it's more subtle. It would also have the effect of older players maybe turning back to mundane characters and spending their points on stats rather than being a magicker....which I would see as a plus. There seem to be an awful lot of magickers around. But I'm not even sure why it matters...since it's not going to happen?
While I'm here...are the extended subguilds in place of subguilds or as well as?
If you pick an extended subguild in a special application, it would be in place of a normal subguild.
Superstar, thanks. Sorry for all the questions. I'm sure it's all about on the boards somewhere but I'm having a hell of a time reading through stuff to catch up. :)
/\/\/\/\/\
Woah, woah, woah! Why all the hostility? Simmer down, you edit that right now young man before you get this thread locked! *stern glare*
Anyway, I actually have a question! 1 boost to 1 stat = 1cgp right? And a special app is Karma +3 so even a newb with no Karma could still special app for 3 stat boosts! Someone with 1 Karma, like Adj has four whole cgp to use on stuff.
Upon submission of a special app must you state what stats you want the boost in at app? Or can you just say, "I'd like to purchase three stat or skill boosts please. :3" and then wait to see how you roll to determine where it goes?
Otherwise maybe you get a really lucky roll and then what? :/
I'm locking this. Apparently there's misinformation out there (maybe from this thread remaining open) that we are going to boost stats in this system.
We are not.
You can prioritize your own stats.