Regarding The Upcoming Chargen Change

[Nyr]

The stuff you don't have a problem with isn't going to happen.  There are no plans to boost stats, give out money, or equipment with karma.

The stuff that is there that is being used now:

Effective guidelines for staff to follow in reviewing karma. 

   Staff base their decisions to award karma on a set of categories. Each
category has a list of criteria which players need to meet in order to gain
a karma point. No more than two karma points can be awarded in any one
category area and the longevity category is limited to one karma point
only.

Categories:
   - Longevity
   - Good communication
   - Ability to roleplay
   - Proven understanding of magick and its place in the game world
   - Proven understanding of cultural and racial structures
   - Contributes to the game
   - Leadership

Stuff that will come down in the future:

--Character Generation Points will be used to delineate "current usable" karma.  CGP regenerates at a set rate (1 CGP per x time period that passes) up to the amount of karma the player has.
--CGP can be used for a karma guild or race.
--CGP can be used for new subguilds.
--CGP can be used for skill boosts.

Your problem is not with the new system.  Your problem seems to be that karma exists at all and that you don't have any, therefore it is unfair.  There are ways to get your karma reviewed; if you haven't already, you should take a look at putting in an account notes request to have your karma reviewed.  There are also ways to increase your visibility to staff so that we take note of you (see "Reports").

[Kaiden]

I can just imagine a branch of Salarr with just a bunch of hunters and armor crafters able to craft master recipes, or the Kadius branch with just hunters who can also master tailor.. Do they get paid as both hunters and tailors, then? Talk about saving money if not, I'm in! 

[Nyr]

Hey Mr. Great Merchant House Fancy pants can I join you? Ohh whats that, what can I do? I can hunt stuff for you and make armor. Ohh am I a "master" armor maker? No Sir I was born inferior to the others for some reason, sorry.

Easily fixed by picking "merchant" or special apping (even now--and then).

I think the staff may be flexible on allowing upgrades so to speak sparingly and, probably at a cost to your available karma, if at some point your non-master crafter armormaker warrior wants to be a master crafter.  Newbies just gotta suck it up until they get a karma point or two.  Roleplay well.  After all, a non-master crafter warrior is still a potentially kick-ass warrior.

The system proposed is not a matter of staff allowing upgrades to existing characters.  That's a big NO.  It's a matter of implementing an automated system that requires a player to spend CGP that regenerates.  Reviewing account notes will still be manually done.

Also, special apps, as always, for anything that falls outside of your karma range (within reason or within guidelines).

There's a whole thread about this in which only Producers responded.  I know it's a lot to wade through but it is out there.

[Nyr]

I can just imagine a branch of Salarr with just a bunch of hunters and armor crafters able to craft master recipes, or the Kadius branch with just hunters who can also master tailor.. Do they get paid as both hunters and tailors, then? Talk about saving money if not, I'm in! 

This could feasibly happen now with special applications, for what it's worth.

[Kastion]

The stuff you don't have a problem with isn't going to happen.  There are no plans to boost stats, give out money, or equipment with karma.

The stuff that is there that is being used now:

Effective guidelines for staff to follow in reviewing karma. 

   Staff base their decisions to award karma on a set of categories. Each
category has a list of criteria which players need to meet in order to gain
a karma point. No more than two karma points can be awarded in any one
category area and the longevity category is limited to one karma point
only.

Categories:
   - Longevity
   - Good communication
   - Ability to roleplay
   - Proven understanding of magick and its place in the game world
   - Proven understanding of cultural and racial structures
   - Contributes to the game
   - Leadership

Stuff that will come down in the future:

--Character Generation Points will be used to delineate "current usable" karma.  CGP regenerates at a set rate (1 CGP per x time period that passes) up to the amount of karma the player has.
--CGP can be used for a karma guild or race.
--CGP can be used for new subguilds.
--CGP can be used for skill boosts.

Your problem is not with the new system.  Your problem seems to be that karma exists at all and that you don't have any, therefore it is unfair.  There are ways to get your karma reviewed; if you haven't already, you should take a look at putting in an account notes request to have your karma reviewed.  There are also ways to increase your visibility to staff so that we take note of you (see "Reports").

no i dont have a problem with the karma system, i have a problem with what i said i have a problem with. In my opinion the karma system is not only ok but needed. I see the need for limiting powerful roles to people who are trustworthy and wont abuse them. I also see it being needed to limit what type of character is in the game. The problem I have as I stated is that my human warrior tailor is someone different from your human warrior tailor just because you have karma.

[Kastion]

how about I give an idea to help fix the things I have a problem with. Why not allow 0 karma to get 1 or 2 kcg points as well but they still have to unlock races and classes to use it on. So every now and then they would have the opportunity to play a special subguild or whatever else. You could compensate the other karma levels by bumping them up or whatever. As I understand it takes time to replenish these kcg points so its not going to be abused by anyone bumping it up a little bit. If you have to slow down the rates you regenerate them a little bit to compensate. I think that would be a fair solution to my objections.

[Talia]

If you want a couple of extra points to play with so that you can spend them on a particular subguild, you'll still be able to special-app for up to 3 points over your current limit. So what you want to do will be achievable within the system.

[Nyr]

no i dont have a problem with the karma system, i have a problem with what i said i have a problem with. In my opinion the karma system is not only ok but needed. I see the need for limiting powerful roles to people who are trustworthy and wont abuse them. I also see it being needed to limit what type of character is in the game. The problem I have as I stated is that my human warrior tailor is someone different from your human warrior tailor just because you have karma.

Okay, let's look at the scenarios in which things could possibly be different between the two characters.

Scenario 1:
you have a warrior/tailor and have no karma
other guy has a warrior/tailor and 3 karma

Nothing changes unless the other player chooses to use that karma at character generation to boost skills of his warrior/tailor.

Scenario 2:
you have a warrior/tailor and have no karma
other guy has a merchant/thug and has 3 karma

He can mastercraft provided he masters a crafting skill.  Of course, you could, too, provided you were a merchant.

Scenario 3:
you have a warrior/tailor and have no karma
other guy has a warrior with a subguild (for instance, master tailor)

Now the other guy can mastercraft clothing AND be a warrior.  He is truly a force to be reckoned with.  You could do the same thing with a special application, provided it is approved.

What we're saying is that you can use a special application now for skill boosts, just like you'll be able to do so then.  Now, yes--one solution would be to give everyone CGP; it is not a solution we are going to pursue, though.  This system as proposed is only unfair if karma levels are immutable.  They are not.

[roughneck]

The problem I have as I stated is that my human warrior tailor is someone different from your human warrior tailor just because you have karma.

To a very large degree, every pc in the game is only as skilled/smart as the player behind them.  That will always be the biggest difference between pc's in terms of power balance.  Some players get behind a 5 day ranger and reek havoc, other players become a bumbling mess with a 30 day warrior, a lamb to the slaughter.

With Arm's policies on sharing OOC knowledge and code info, the players who have figured out the most and utilize that knowledge the most effectively will always be the most dangerous characters in the game, whatever karma level they're playing at.

The upcoming changes are just tasty treats to have fun with, IMO.

[Kinther]

If you want a couple of extra points to play with so that you can spend them on a particular subguild, you'll still be able to special-app for up to 3 points over your current limit. So what you want to do will be achievable within the system.

Hypothetically, if I had 8 cgp, I could special app a psionicist with an additional 3 points spread out however I wanted? Or is that not likely to happen?

Yes, I realize it would be difficult to accrue 8 cgp on my own and even less likely the app would be approved, but is it possible?

[Talia]

Hypothetically, if I had 8 cgp, I could special app a psionicist with an additional 3 points spread out however I wanted? Or is that not likely to happen?

Yes, I realize it would be difficult to accrue 8 cgp on my own and even less likely the app would be approved, but is it possible?

Yes, this is hypothetically possible. However, there are still limits to the special-app process; for example, you can't play a mul magicker, you can't play a non-human psionicist, and so on. Regardless of how much karma any particular player has, there are some things which will always be not playable.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Well I dont have any problem with letting people with karma start out stronger or with more money or equipment or whatever. Kick starting a character is cool with me. The problem I have with it is that my human warrior tailor is somehow inferior to your human warrior tailor because you have karma and can now mastercraft and i cannot. Its also unfair that you can take other sub guilds that raise your maximum skill levels and I cannnot just because you have karma and I dont. I dont see how this adds anything to the game other then giving players with karma quite a leg up on everyone else?


Hey Mr. Great Merchant House Fancy pants can I join you? Ohh whats that, what can I do? I can hunt stuff for you and make armor. Ohh am I a "master" armor maker? No Sir I was born inferior to the others for some reason, sorry.

Now, Armageddon is not a job, but I'm a little confused about your reasoning here. Rest assured, you are not alone in your line of thinking, but I still don't get it. Do you feel as though you should be as entitled to something as somebody who has played ten times longer than you? Or, in real world terms, should you have as much a shot at being a manager at your job as the guy who has worked there ten years longer than you and is just as skilled as you?

You need to realize first that the karma system is a staff-awarded indication of Armageddon integration. To earn these points you have displayed a willingness and ability to lead (well or not), live long enough to create stability in an OOCLY transient population, keep staff up to date with your character, roleplayed well (most importantly, in flow with documentation and the world, while allowing slight variances. Also, emoting does not equal roleplay), have in depth understanding of social culture, racial pressures and nuances, and magick and all of its facets, and finally, the desire and ability to contribute to the game, both oocly and icly.

All of those criteria take time to accomplish, and even more time for staff to notice and validate. Karma is not a 'cool kids' club. Karma is simply a reward for x years of playing time, and an indication of staff trust. Staff is simply saying to that player, "We trust you, following years of observation, to be capable of making a few of your own choices in generating your character."

Unless you are the sort of person who automatically feels entitled to everything, this should not really be a problem.

Also, you should try to avoid feeling as though you should bow at the feet of your Armageddon elders.

[Kastion]

You are the one that sounds entitled, not even going to bother arguing with you. If you really think you deserve something more then me on a GAME because you have been around longer... I dont know what to say

[FantasyWriter]

....you deserve something more then me ...  because you have been around longer...

You can fill in the blanks with variables from almost any aspect of life and that statement rings mostly truth.

[FantasyWriter]

to add:
Longevity is ONE possible karma. You have twelve other possible karma bumps to get you up to the total of eight.
Moot point.

[Marauder Moe]

If you really think you deserve something more then me on a GAME because you have been around longer... I dont know what to say

Isn't that the default paradigm for persistent-world multi-player games, though?

When you sign up for World of Warcraft, you can't get flying mounts right off the bat.

When you play EVE Online, your first ship isn't a battlecruiser.

Even shorter instanced-based games like Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3 have upgrades that must be unlocked with experience/time.

[Kastion]

this has nothing to do with what you earn playing the game. As my posts on this topic have allready stated I think its unfair that you character that is the exact same as mine is some how enhanced through karma. I dont have a problem with unlocking new races/guilds that type of thing. But my warrior/tailor is somehow inferior to your warrior/tailor because you have karma is my beef.

[Marauder Moe]

What's wrong with that, though?

There's nothing stopping you from earning karma yourself and then making a warrior/threadmaster.

[Kastion]

What's wrong with that, though?

There's nothing stopping you from earning karma yourself and then making a warrior/threadmaster.

why does that line of thought creep up so much in life? half the worlds problems are caused by thinking like that

[Synthesis]

Man, when you've been playing for several years and a) you've grown up a little and b) you have karma, you're gonna look back on this thread and feel real stupid.

p.s. my RL subguild is threadmaster

[Kastion]

Man, when you've been playing for several years and a) you've grown up a little and b) you have karma, you're gonna look back on this thread and feel real stupid.

p.s. my RL subguild is threadmaster

Ya im real stupid for having a differing opinion. You guys gotta just be trolling me now.

[Talia]

Ya im real stupid for having a differing opinion. You guys gotta just be trolling me now.

I don't believe they are trolling you. (If I did, I would be making noises about locking the thread.) I believe they are offering their perspectives on the issue, as veteran players of many years. Once upon a time, it is even likely they felt as you do now.

[Marauder Moe]

While I sympathize with the socio-economic sentiment, I don't think it really applies here.  We all started at zero karma (well, with the possible exception of those who were around before the karma system), and we all earned what we have in similar ways.  These days, with the karma guidelines being both formalized and published, things are even more egalitarian.

Seriously, what aspects about earning karma are so difficult and/or offensive?

[Marauder Moe]

Once upon a time, it is even likely they felt as you do now.

So true.  There are several of my older posts that really make me cringe.  Ideas and complaints that I thought were brilliant and completely justified... but really were born out of a narrow perspective.

(That said, I still believe that there should be a subguild with Cavilish... maybe this new system presents an opportunity to insert one.    )

[Whiran Luck]

I guess I'm also not getting the problem with this. I suspect you're looking at it from an odd perspective. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying: All my 0 karma warrior/tailors will not be equal to your 3 karma warrior/tailors, which, if I'm not mistaken, is wrong.

My 3 karma warrior/tailor will not have any extra skills or abilities any different from your 0 karma warrior/tailor, unless I want a skill boost. (Something you don't have a problem with). All the caps are the same, so far as I understand, and the starting levels are the same (unless I get a skill boost to my starting skills).

What the admins and others are saying, that you have a problem with is:
My 0 karma warrior/tailor will never be able to Mastercraft like your 3 karma warrior/threadmaster. Well, yeah. Duh. They picked a karma subguild. If you have no karma, then no, you won't be able to mastercraft pretty princess dresses off the bat. (*Unless you play a tailor, which is a 0 karma guild. But then you can't be a warrior.)

Solutions:
1. Get karma by the means posted above. Problems you have with the karma system notwithstanding, it's not difficult to accrue -some- karma provided you: follow the game rules, mostly adhere to game documentation, manage to play one moderately long-lived character, send in character reports.

Or

2. Special app a warrior/threadmaster. Granted, you might not be approved for it, though being that the potential for abuse is probably not that high, and keeping in mind you are only allowed a certain number of special apps per year, I don't see that special-apping something like this would be terribly difficult. Yes, it might take a little longer to get approved, but special apps are there to let lower karma players try higher karma roles or to let people request a character with skills or abilities different than the norm. Like a mastercrafting warrior/tailor, which can be currently special-apped if you really want one that badly.

What you're trying to say is since your class/subguild is not equal to a class/different subguild this is not fair. Well... no, it's not. It's like complaining your warrior/tailor can't weave baskets. Or at least that's what I'm getting out of it.