Armageddon General Discussion Board


Holding his cheaply-made strip of leather with bone shards, the merchant sayz "This spik3d leather bracer I culd sell for 1,5o0 sids dude."

Amos looks confused.

Tha merchent getz a finely-engraved, gem-studded silt-horror bracer from his backpack.

Patting the bracer made from a rare superbeast the murchunt sayz "Thiz I can leggo for two and 1/2 small though."


I would love to see those damn bracers/gloves taken out of the game myself. They're just my personal pet peeve though, maybe it's just me. I hate it when ig you have to react to things priced for their coded benefits over their actual construction or functionality, I'm aware that there are a few of these items that are indeed fancy enough to warrant a hefty price though a majority of them are made of the most simple things.

Though my post isn't just about the uppercutting wrist-bits that make people smirk, it's about quite a few items that are oddly priced. Sheaths for instance, I remember some post about those in the distant passed but it would seem that a sheath or scabbard for a weapon would be one of the most common items in zalanthas and not something you'd have to track down a merchant and cough up 1,000 sids to get. I would love to see some of these items scattered around between some of the npc vendors throughout the world or price-checked back into realism. Anyone else see where I'm coming from or agree?

1. I DO enjoy playing humans, therefore Majikal lurves me.

2. Totally agree on the whole idea. It makes zero sense.  Armorsmiths who are working with rare silt horror, or northern armorsmiths working with expensive obsidian, or jewel-encrusting things, or emblazoning things, should find making a strip of leather with shards on it to be insultingly easy to do, UNrare, and not especially time consuming.

There's no reason why a GMH should only allow 1 per RL month, and impose a half-game-year-to-full-game-year advance order to make it, and then charge 1500+ sids for the privilege.

And this, for nothing but a neato script that doesn't do much damage (1-2 hps per successful tag), and makes raptors smirk at you.

Get rid of them altogether, or give them an IN-GAME reason to be so damned valueable.

But then what would we wear as OOC status symbols?

</sarcasm>

I agree.

I agree as well.

You might do better mentioning this in a request and addressing it to GMH staff, as you're talking pricing with GMH products and can be more specific there.

My dude once fought someone and lost 34 of the 102 hp to bracers. True story.

I think the weapon-bracer/gloves are a little bit too common in game (there are cheaper alternatives out there).

All sheath items should be WAY more common, and WAY less expensive than they are now, imo.

We can buy SHEATHS? I want a freaking sheath. Nobody told me this and I have played this game for YEARS.

That's how stupidly rare they apparently are.

Sheaths more common, +8

spiked bracers and such less common +10

spiked bracers value decreased, I can't agree with you on that.

Creating a bracer that has as part of its build something that allows you to slice someone as you perhaps miss a strike would take alot of effort.
More than attaching a silly gem, or even working with a rare piece of shell.
Though the fact that the shell is rare should be a factor.

What I might suggest is to maybe change the bracers and such slightly so that they need a special material to make them.

I agree on all counts so far save getting rid of the scripted combat gear all together.
The silly scripts should be edited/replaced for sure though.

Now I see why, when I played a merchant, that I could never sell those fancy bracers based on material cost but rather their usefulness. That does seem a tad silly. I hated when some Amos fighter was like, "lol, those cracked ones (or whatever they effin' were) are so much better, sell them for lots more.".

Mine: "But they aren't jewel encrusted!"

Ugh.

I guess its not the prices as such that confuse me, but more of what everyone is saying about it being, basically, a strip of leather with some spikes in it. Maybe the "combat bracers" and such should be high-level, highly "artsy" sorts of items. If you're going to have a bracer designed to be like fucking Shredder, it should look cooler than "this is a bit of leather, with a horn on it".

For reference:

(http://elads.biz/shrbgth.jpg)

They're not like shredder. And yes it takes effort to USE them, not to make them. And they don't look like what you're depicting in your jpg.

They're STRIPS of leather..single individual strips. Like, a wide wristband. With pointy sharp pieces of teeth, chitin, or shards of obsidian affixed to the top. Not even a lot of them. The leather is cheap leather from a common animal, the spikes are also common.

They shouldn't work -at all- if you're fighting while mounted, because it should be assumed you're not fighting close-range. Daggers and shortblades shouldn't work while mounted either unless you're like - a half-giant fighting a mekillot or something. But I digress.

Also, I have to assume that IsFriday's experience is due to him spending a pretty healthy amount of time in that one specific fight. Yes, you -can- nickel and dime someone to death with a spiked armband. But at just a couple HPs at a time, and ONLY if you succeed, it's going to take awhile. I used to do a lot of damage to sparring partners with those things, during 15-minute spars. It got to be where I was better with those, rarely ever failing, than I was with an actual weapon.

But we're still talking only a couple HPs per hit.

And for only a couple HPs per hit, with an item that is made with cheap, common materials, that provides only modest armor protection, it shouldn't be taking a RL month to order, and cost 1500 sids.

They're expensive and rare because they have an OOC coolness factor. So once again, an OOC factor, determines an IC situation. And merchants are expected to explain this OOC situation ICly.

"Oh the Master Crafter's busy."
"But, surely your House, a Greater Merchant House comprised of a few hundred family members and countless crafters, can manage to slip another one in this year?"
"Sorry, but they're all booked up."
"Well can I have a pair of purple and green gem-encrusted silt-horror emblazoned burnished leg-warmers instead?"
"Sure! I'll have that for you in a few weeks, it'll be 800 sids."
"..."

I experienced this type of conversation with customers several times with my GMH characters, over things that are INFINITELY more simplistic, made of cheaper, more common materials, than most of the stuff the House sold in stock. All because there was an OOC restriction, which existed because of an OOC coolness factor.

"We're sorry, boots with a sleeve from which you can slide a knife are only sold once per two months. I have a list of five people ahead of you, so come back in a few years. On the other hand, these boots with a sleeve-like pocket can carry around lots of stuff, including knives, and they're dirt cheap and I have more than I know what to do with. But the sleeve is less ... slidey."

Quote from: Thunkkin on April 21, 2011, 11:06:42 PM
"We're sorry, boots with a sleeve from which you can slide a knife are only sold once per two months. I have a list of five people ahead of you, so come back in a few years. On the other hand, these boots with a sleeve-like pocket can carry around lots of stuff, including knives, and they're dirt cheap and I have more than I know what to do with. But the sleeve is less ... slidey."

Exactly. OOC restrictions, being expected to be RPed ICly even though the restriction makes zero IC sense.

I totally disagree.

I was in the Army, I have fought over seas. I have been shot, stabbed and partially blown up by a grenade. Anything that would protect me better I
would buy it and because it would keep me alive I would pay more for it.

Sleeves that could hold crap, cool. Sleeves with which when some guy is about to kill me with his dagger I can slip directly into my hand saving me a couple of seconds of fumbling....
Freaking awesome, I'll pay for that, it might save my life.

your perceived ooc coolness is ic lifesaving. They cost more because they can charge more and people will pay for it.

Also restricting how many of such an item is supply and demand, the less of a supply of a thing is the more people will pay for it.
If there were spiked bracers everywhere, no one would pay 1500 for them, they aren't common in game.
Your just using pc to judge what is common, a pc is not supposed to be common.

Quote from: Yasbusta on April 21, 2011, 11:23:35 PM
I totally disagree.

I was in the Army, I have fought over seas. I have been shot, stabbed and partially blown up by a grenade. Anything that would protect me better I
would buy it and because it would keep me alive I would pay more for it.

Sleeves that could hold crap, cool. Sleeves with which when some guy is about to kill me with his dagger I can slip directly into my hand saving me a couple of seconds of fumbling....
Freaking awesome, I'll pay for that, it might save my life.

your perceived ooc coolness is ic lifesaving. They cost more because they can charge more and people will pay for it.

Sounds like you've not used the specific item in question before.

Quote from: Xeran Van Houten on April 21, 2011, 11:24:57 PM

Quote from: Yasbusta on April 21, 2011, 11:23:35 PM
I totally disagree.

I was in the Army, I have fought over seas. I have been shot, stabbed and partially blown up by a grenade. Anything that would protect me better I
would buy it and because it would keep me alive I would pay more for it.

Sleeves that could hold crap, cool. Sleeves with which when some guy is about to kill me with his dagger I can slip directly into my hand saving me a couple of seconds of fumbling....
Freaking awesome, I'll pay for that, it might save my life.

your perceived ooc coolness is ic lifesaving. They cost more because they can charge more and people will pay for it.

Sounds like you've not used the specific item in question before.

I have used them before, grabbing something from a pocket compared to grabbing something that is held in a certain position to be ready to be drawn forth......

Quote from: Lizzie on April 21, 2011, 11:10:33 PM

Quote from: Thunkkin on April 21, 2011, 11:06:42 PM
"We're sorry, boots with a sleeve from which you can slide a knife are only sold once per two months. I have a list of five people ahead of you, so come back in a few years. On the other hand, these boots with a sleeve-like pocket can carry around lots of stuff, including knives, and they're dirt cheap and I have more than I know what to do with. But the sleeve is less ... slidey."

Exactly. OOC restrictions, being expected to be RPed ICly even though the restriction makes zero IC sense.

Kinda like being punished IG for not having an imm or an object able to load. Poor merchants. Poor consumers. :/

Quote from: Yasbusta on April 21, 2011, 11:29:05 PM
I have used them before, grabbing something from a pocket compared to grabbing something that is held in a certain position to be ready to be drawn forth......

The item that the thread is about.

+1000000 on the sheaths bit. Seriously. SERIOUSLY.

I throw my hat in on the whole "let's just get rid of those ridiculous wrist items please" thing.

Quote from: Xeran Van Houten on April 21, 2011, 11:32:04 PM

Quote from: Yasbusta on April 21, 2011, 11:29:05 PM
I have used them before, grabbing something from a pocket compared to grabbing something that is held in a certain position to be ready to be drawn forth......

The item that the thread is about.

Last Char had them and many chars before had them. They rock ooc and ic.
Not telling about my current char, :P

I wish that you could just have these kind of items in the 'hands' slot, and that they would become your melee weapon if you weren't wielding or holding something in that hand. Then that would cover cestuses, wristwrazors, clawed gloves, bladed gauntlets, and all of that.

Quote from: jstorrie on April 21, 2011, 11:44:25 PM
I wish that you could just have these kind of items in the 'hands' slot, and that they would become your melee weapon if you weren't wielding or holding something in that hand. Then that would cover cestuses, wristwrazors, clawed gloves, bladed gauntlets, and all of that.

Or just make the wrist spikes/razors/lasers and spiked gloves/gauntlets wield-able weapons like cestuses instead of armor with ridiculous offensive benefits.  I think just /fighting/ with the razors instead of using them with other weapons sounds way more BA, and won't be as... ridiculous.

It's really cool that these items exist as they do, but I wouldn't miss them if they changed form.

They can still be worn, but give the same advantages wearing a cestus does... which I'm not sure is anything beyond basic armor

Quote from: FantasyWriter on April 21, 2011, 08:48:38 PM
I agree on all counts so far save getting rid of the scripted combat gear all together.
The silly scripts should be edited/replaced for sure though.

This is what I think as well. They don't bother me, I think they add a little flavor to combat and they aren't much of a coded benefit. They just need to have echoes that aren't kinda silly and the pricing should be more in line with the materials they're made from.  Sheaths and scabbards should be -way- more common and way cheaper definitely. The use of a sheath or scabbard to house your bladed weapons should be the norm and not the exception.

Hey, when we're done with talking about this, maybe we can talk about how some other things cost way more than it takes to make too :P

This is one of those things I just try to ignore and OOCly accept as a way of maintaining game balance while allowing for all these codedly-cool items to be somewhat available to players.

That said, I've never played a merchant so I can imagine it gets tougher from that point of view.

Quote from: Rhyden on April 21, 2011, 08:38:44 PM
I think the weapon-bracer/gloves are a little bit too common in game (there are cheaper alternatives out there).

All sheath items should be WAY more common, and WAY less expensive than they are now, imo.

I've played a merchant for Salarr and had to explains to a high profile client why I couldn't make him a simple sheath, then, once it was approved that he'd have to wait for over a year to receive said order. The sheath was two straps and a pocket of black leather with a sexy factor of zero.. meanwhile I'm shitting out dragon-engraved serrated war-axes and ruby-studded prism-tipped quartz-hilted broadswords to every amos in the world, one being a high end item (400 sid) that a single amos order 10 of because he was scared they'd break.

What would be really cool is a whole bunch of generic sheaths beings sold in shops. Back-sheaths and wrist-sheaths and strap-sheaths for all!

As for the fighting script bracers, the echoes definitely need to be tweaked but then you still end up with a spiked leather bracer that for some reason is being sold ig for the same cost as some items that have METAL in them. I wish I had a log of one of my pc's wearing that bracer just so I could paste what it really is. There are a few noble-class wrist razors out there but a majority of them are just as mean and crude looking as I wish all of Zalanthas was. Spiked bracer was salt worm hide with spines left in or some such. I understand it's a cool super-1337 item and you have to price it that way so it's not so common and neater than it should be but saying it's priced that way for game balance is ridiculous, this game isn't about balance. 30day ranger vs 1 day mage, how many folks have seen that turn out assbackwards from what a newb would expect?

Back scabbards would be really really cool, although I doubt they'd get a lot of use because they'd occupy the pack slot (and everybody knows it's perfectly normal to wear a pack everywhere you go!).

Sheaths: should be way more common. Should be the norm if you're using any kind of sharp weapon. Running around with your jagged, curving, shatter-prone obsidian sword with a spiked hilt just shoved into your belt is ridiculous, and I'm pretty sure most people just RP having their swords in a sheath anyway. It's an absurd notion that a sheath is some kind of rare, highly valuable commodity that you must wait in line for months in order to get.

Wristblades: get rid of them or make a universal 'strike' command that is enhanced by wearing such an item, in which case they should be much more common. It's silly that you can't even attempt to punch and jab during combat unless you're wearing something with spikes on your wrist or hands, in which case you suddenly become capable of slicing and uppercutting and high-fiving people for potentially lethal damage. You gain additional damage output by putting this item on that grants you additional attacks, regardless of whether you're wielding a seven-foot pike, carrying a shield on that arm, or whatever. Players go so far out of their way to acquire these and are so OOC about it that it really is about time that something's done. It's not so much that a non-weapon item can improve your combat prowess, but rather that it magically creates combat maneuvers that you can't even attempt without them. They also interact poorly with the combat code, and I remember seeing stalemate fights decided by wristblades that were merrily cutting through the otherwise impenetrable defenses of opposing fighters. Finally, it's awkward and weird that the proc is automated rather than voluntary - who hasn't been in the sparring hall for a friendly match with your buddy, but you had to take your spiked bracers (but not your spiked breastplate, helmet and codpiece) off so that you wouldn't feel compulsively compelled to uppercut him and shred his face? And you get to do it more frequently the more articles of spiked combat-wear you're using? What do these things do, slow down time? It just feels really 1995.

Suggestions:

- get rid of them

- make it a strike command that punches if you don't have one, spikes if you do

- make it a feature exclusive to one-handed combat, a style that could use some encouragement

We need some merchant PCs out there mastercrafting simple sheath designs.

0.0

Quote from: HavokBlue on April 22, 2011, 03:49:09 AM
Back scabbards would be really really cool, although I doubt they'd get a lot of use because they'd occupy the pack slot (and everybody knows it's perfectly normal to wear a pack everywhere you go!).

They already exist IG.

And are just as hard to come by as all the other sheaths.

I've seen, I think, 5 different sheathes in-game.

Never had a problem getting the one kind I prefer to use.

However, while all this is out here, why not also restrict the sheath items to only holding one item. Realism and all.

Make ALL items IG craftable.
Problems solved (except the no IC script echos, that is).

Remove the spiked bracer script.  Tell the playerbase they have to rp the spike usage.  See how many of those items are still worn in a few months.

It's dated as hell anyway and as others have said, they're just ooc status symbols.

As for those who think they are Shredder'esque bracers, keep in mind that the first spiked bracers "A spiked bracer" came from mantis (unless I'm totally misremembering.  They were at least one of the first.  Who else hunted mantis to farm bracers back in the day?).

It's not exactly intricate craftsmanship or super fancy, however useful.  So what?  Well, it means that anyone with some talent (armorcrafting?  Knifemaking?) would and could emulate them.  And with the IC price, you know people would.  Supply and Demand.  "But Marc.  Salarr wouldn't let others make them.  That's their business."  There are plenty of independent npc armor and weapon crafter/merchants in the game.  None of them would ever try to make something an insect could make?  That they saw selling for small fortunes?  That every mercenary/soldier in the known is asking after?

It's an OOC construct.  Remove them.

Remove any remaining mdesc masks too.  Someone tried to sell a character of mine "a tattered bag with holes" or something equally unimpressive (circa early 2000's).  But it hid your mdesc! So it was worth four thousand coins.  OOC construct.

Really, remove all the items with special scripts unless they are universally available or uniquely rare ala magick swords and rings and shit.  Eliminates a certain degree of meta-gaming which can only be a plus.

Drawbacks?  Some people would cry their toys stopped working.  It would all be forgotten in a month and there wouldn't be any more of this awkwardness.

All my opinion (could accomplish the same thing by making everything universally available but then everyone would wear the bracers, or the masks, or the sheaths, or whatever else had a cool script that they could get).

I'm pretty sure the only mdesc-hiding item left in the game is a kank costume. But the description isn't that of a face mask, it's intended as a full body costume.

I think it was Nyr (or maybe Senga?) who fixed all the mdesc masks back when I was playing a Kadian and saw that a bunch of them were still obscuring mdescs. Any of those that still do that, are bugs and should be bugrepped.

I put in my vote for maybe just changing the way spiked bracers and stuff work instead of getting rid of the script completely.  I think the script adds some flavor and variety to the game.  I'd hate to have less of that.  Either change the way they work during combat, if it is unrealistic, or just continue role-playing like they are made in a certain way that allows them to be more effective in combat than a regular bracer.  Seems that is what we always did in the past. 

Same sorta goes for the sheath... role-play like they are made to work, somehow, more effectively than your average "virtual" sheath I guess.  Making them more common may be a good option as well and maybe tweaking the way they work if necessary.

Get rid of the script altogether.

The spiked bracers seem fine to me, but if they cause problems removing the script wouldn't bother me at all. Don't delete them from the game though, I totally want to Shredder out one day with a future PC, even if it's only for cosmetic spikes.

Dump the script altogether. How come someone who cannot get past their opponent's defenses with a sword/spear/whatever can still manage to use their wrists as a semi-effective weapon?

Quote from: Delusion on April 23, 2011, 01:33:24 AM
Dump the script altogether. How come someone who cannot get past their opponent's defenses with a sword/spear/whatever can still manage to use their wrists as a semi-effective weapon?

That's an issue of code mechanics that we can't discuss.

I think if your PC is strong enough, you should be able to rip someone's arm off as a critical reversal of a spiked bracer miss.  You could then use the resulting "spike-bracered severed arm" to *shlif* them to death.

If you do this enough, you can send in a request to have the "*shlif*fing weapons" and "smirking weapons" skills added to your list.

Quote from: Bebop on April 22, 2011, 03:32:54 AM

Quote from: Rhyden on April 21, 2011, 08:38:44 PM
I think the weapon-bracer/gloves are a little bit too common in game (there are cheaper alternatives out there).

All sheath items should be WAY more common, and WAY less expensive than they are now, imo.

More sheath. Less shredder.

Moderated a post that had nothing to do with this thread; please keep threads on topic.

Maybe fix the bracer code so it doesn't ignore defense, etc... so it acts more like normal offense vs. defense like it works with regular weapons/combat.  Could change the text output a little bit as well.

What about instead of hard-coded changes, people just play realistically/in-character and not use six inch wrist-spikes/razers/whatever when they're fighting with a 12 foot spear from the back of an inix?

Quote from: HavokBlue on April 24, 2011, 12:39:34 AM
What about instead of hard-coded changes, people just play realistically/in-character and not use six inch wrist-spikes/razers/whatever when they're fighting with a 12 foot spear from the back of an inix?

This. Although the word you're looking for is pike (not the FISH!), I think? I've never heard of 12 foot spears... 12 foot pikes, definitely.

Derp. Not really the point. Seven foot spear.

This just seems like another one of those things that, just because the code allows you to do it, doesn't mean you realistically could do it.

As if the smirking wasn't enough, it's a bit annoying how the script has you strike whatever it is in the face all the time. Even if you're a dwarf lying on your back.

Quote from: HavokBlue on April 24, 2011, 12:39:34 AM
What about instead of hard-coded changes, people just play realistically/in-character and not use six inch wrist-spikes/razers/whatever when they're fighting with a 12 foot spear from the back of an inix?

This exemplifies the point, actually. The point, is that code trumps roleplay. People wear those things because they're cool looking. They wear them riding, to get from point A to point B. And maybe they plan on getting off their inix and attacking that leaping hopping tregil at close range.

However, when big lumbering gortok comes out and starts clawing your head (how did he reach your head anyway? You're sitting on top of a 12-foot-tall mount and the gortok is only 7 feet tall - oh yeah - code), the code for your gear AUTOMATICALLY kicks in. You can't say "Oh Mr. Gortok, please hold up a moment while I remove my slicing bracers."  The code doesn't care what's realistic. The code cares how the code is written. The code is written such that you, the player, have no choice. If you are -wearing- those bracers, their script will *automatically* kick in if you get put in a combat situation. You have to roleplay around the code of it. The code will not accommodate your roleplay.

It sounds more like some of you are assuming that when you enter combat with something, the two (or more) things are just standing there swinging, immobile.  This is not the case, and I'm sure I've seen staff say that in several posts about other things.  You, your mount, and the thing(s) you are fighting are moving around - dodging, looking for position, striking, hopping around, etc.
If you think that gortok is not trying to jump up and lunge for your face, that's being less realist than assuming you -have- to have a 12ft spear to fight from a mount.  That's how canine animals fight - they go for hamstrings, throats and faces.
True, a dwarf that keeps hitting half-giants in the face and such is pushing it, but there's plenty of possibly explanations why it might have happened.
Point is that combat is chaos, and you can't easily predict how it'll happen or even remember clearly what happened during afterward.

I've always viewed the script attacks as more of attacks of opportunity that happen while you're trying to connect/miss with your main weapon(s) or while defending from attacks.
The only actual problem I've ever had with them is that the scripts do not respond to the disengage command, so if you forget to take them off during sparring, you either have to take them off during the combat, or flee.

QuoteI've always viewed the script attacks as more of attacks of opportunity that happen while you're trying to connect/miss with your main weapon(s) or while defending from attacks.

Yeah me too. Since you happen to have the spikes or whatever available it creates another way to strike when an opportunity presents itself. My only complaints regarding them is the echoes they sometimes give and the unrealistic pricing.

I would like to weigh in on pricing, I believe one should simply consider the pricing as being what happens to any product that has a high demand. Once that demand is known then the merchants will always squeeze as many coins out of it as possible.

Its rather realistic, in that sense.

Imagine for a moment it started out something like this;

Some where in a small shop off a dusty room, Merchant/crafter Amos Da Amos is working with some teeth from a predator and a strip of leather from the ruined hide he tried to make into whatever. He comes up with this ugly monstrosity of (currently) useless materials and he tosses it aside.
Enter the warrior, one day poking around Amos shop, this warrior comes across the leather and teeth, asking what it is, the crafter/merchant says oh it was just something ta go around da wrist, but its really worth anything. Well the warrior sees a possible purpose in it and buys it for 20 sid.

Fast forward in time, the warrior has become widely known and more so his ability to tear at the face of an opponent that pushes past the guard of his weapon, a twelve foot spear/pike, which in the earlier years happen'd often.
Next thing you know people are seeking out this cheaply made/ but rare item. The merchant Crafter begins to think, oh well, perhaps there was a greater value to these since so many people want them, specially since less want these fancy bracers. So he at first still only charges 20 sid, but its not something he enjoys and more and more people want them, seeking them.. so he begins to charge more coins, since it is his time they are requiring, and he figures if I'm going to be asked to work on shit, well then they should pay me for roses. Thus he now requires 2000 a wrist wrap, and finds that he gets it, so he continues to charge that much.

Now is it his fault (or staffs fault) that everyone is willing to pay this price, no, just as much as its not someones fault that they are killed by another to get that item. Its economics.

Now will people complain, sure they complain about everything, I poop to much, I don't poop enough. It matters little what the situation is, there with always be someone that is not satisfied.

The problem is not really in supply and demand.. it's that it's the demand and supply is almost exclusively from PCs, with no demand from (v)NPCs. It's possibly something very simple to craft, but few have the recipe, so, not many people with the skill are making them.

Some of these items are not craftable at all, and their rarety is *exlusively* an OOC device, created by staff. They are special order only, the Merchant is required to make the customer wait. Theoretically, some of these items are made of cheap materials AND incredibly simplistic enough that ANY master crafter should have no trouble making it at all. However the whole "this can only be made by that clan" thing is a playability issue, so at LEAST, they should be craftable by any master crafter in that clan. But they're not. And their rarety and minimum selling price is imposed on players by the staff, and is not an IC situation. You can come up with all kinds of IC excuses, but that's all they are - excuses. And if another character of influence (like, a templar, or noble) pushes hard enough, and rejects the excuses..the only thing you CAN do, is go OOC and explain "sorry, the clan staff refuses to load them up and they're not craftable. Please roleplay around this" and hope the player of said templar or noble is understanding.

Some of these items were craftable by certain clans, but the clans are now closed and therefore you can't get them at all, unless you kill someone who already has one and get it before the game crashes and it is gone forever.

To be clear, I'd prefer if the 'extra attacks' functionality was removed entirely, and replaced with a 'backup weapon' functionality. This way the hands slot could be itemized for pure protection (heavy gauntlets), skill boosts (work gloves/climbing gloves/riding gloves/etc) or backup weapon utilty (spiked gauntlets, cesti, brass knuckles, etc.)

Quote from: jstorrie on April 24, 2011, 08:08:26 PM
To be clear, I'd prefer if the 'extra attacks' functionality was removed entirely, and replaced with a 'backup weapon' functionality. This way the hands slot could be itemized for pure protection (heavy gauntlets), skill boosts (work gloves/climbing gloves/riding gloves/etc) or backup weapon utilty (spiked gauntlets, cesti, brass knuckles, etc.)

So when you say backup weapon...do you mean that if I were wearing spiked gauntlets and my character was disarmed I would still function as though wielding a bludgeoning weapon utiliziing my combat skills the same as if I were armed with a club?

Actually, instead of removing the extra attacks functionality I say fix the echoes -and- add in some of what he's talking about. Make some of the others options more appealing from a coded standpoint so that people have to choose. Do I want an extra minor attack? Do I want additional defense? Do I want them to be a backup weapon instead? How about locking gauntlets to keep people from disarming me? Do I want gloves that help with climbing? Do I want gloves that help with my riding? Etc. Make alot more options of items that have more obvious coded benefits but basically all fit the same locations so you can't stack them up, only choose one over another depending on your pc.

Edit: Oh, and make them all pc craftable so they aren't so hard to come by to help keep the pricing down. (or not depending on the materials and the difficulty of crafting them)

Quote from: jhunter on April 24, 2011, 09:25:21 PM

Quote from: jstorrie on April 24, 2011, 08:08:26 PM
To be clear, I'd prefer if the 'extra attacks' functionality was removed entirely, and replaced with a 'backup weapon' functionality. This way the hands slot could be itemized for pure protection (heavy gauntlets), skill boosts (work gloves/climbing gloves/riding gloves/etc) or backup weapon utilty (spiked gauntlets, cesti, brass knuckles, etc.)

So when you say backup weapon...do you mean that if I were wearing spiked gauntlets and my character was disarmed I would still function as though wielding a bludgeoning weapon utiliziing my combat skills the same as if I were armed with a club?

Yes, although the backup weapon would not be as powerful as a standard one.

Maybe no weapon skills, just added damage for unarmed... But then stun damage would probably need to be pulled back else we'd end up with ninja monks all over the place.

Quote from: jstorrie on April 24, 2011, 08:08:26 PM
To be clear, I'd prefer if the 'extra attacks' functionality was removed entirely, and replaced with a 'backup weapon' functionality. This way the hands slot could be itemized for pure protection (heavy gauntlets), skill boosts (work gloves/climbing gloves/riding gloves/etc) or backup weapon utilty (spiked gauntlets, cesti, brass knuckles, etc.)

This makes sense. I mean, how many people even try to slash someone in the face while swinging a sword at them? Ironically, the only situation where this makes sense is if you're fighting a gortok with a 6 foot pole. It could function as like a secondary dagger if you get disarmed, but not a secondary attack.

Quote from: Saellyn on April 24, 2011, 12:52:46 AM

Quote from: HavokBlue on April 24, 2011, 12:39:34 AM
What about instead of hard-coded changes, people just play realistically/in-character and not use six inch wrist-spikes/razers/whatever when they're fighting with a 12 foot spear from the back of an inix?

This. Although the word you're looking for is pike (not the FISH!), I think? I've never heard of 12 foot spears... 12 foot pikes, definitely.

Spear is a general term. Pikes are a particularly long style of spear (See, Square vs. Rectangle).

Iron Age spears from Scandinavia were generally at the shorter end of the range (~6ft) as they were employed more often in small skirmishes or one-on-one combat, but it was not unheard of for them to be tall enough that a man could just touch the rivet with an upraised hand (~10ft). Longer spears (i.e. pikes) were employed by the people further south who were more experienced with fighting in large-scale battles.

Parallels can be seen in Asian cultures as well, with foot soldiers using shorter spears for close combat and cavalry using flexible long-spears from horse-back. The flexible design made the adoption of more rigid pole weapons, such as the lance or iron-shod pike, less of a priority as breakage was of less concern.

/archeology derail

Quote from: Spoon on April 25, 2011, 04:59:39 AM
Maybe no weapon skills, just added damage for unarmed... But then stun damage would probably need to be pulled back else we'd end up with ninja monks all over the place.

If the 'glove weapons' had smaller or fewer damage dice, I think it would be fine - especially since normal weapons don't get the wacky stun damage that unarmed strikes do. If people want to forego the 2d8-or-whatever warhammer for the 1d4 cestus, in order to max out on STYLE POINTS, then I see no reason to penalize them more. The lower damage output of using piddly little hand weapons is penalty enough, even the PC still gets to apply his bludgeoning or whatever skill to them.

The average player's choice would be more like 'do I wear these cesti, so I have a guaranteed but weak weapon out in case I get disarmed, or do I wear these cool assassin-y gloves with the wristsheath so I can just draw my sekrit daggers, or do I wear these riding gloves so I can use both hands in combat (let's not consider that one too closely), or do I wear my archery gloves for SHOOTAN, or do I wear these climbing gloves so I'll be okay when Sarge leads us all over the Wall again?' Maybe that sounds min-maxy, but I think it's a reasonable equipment decision that PCs ought to be making.

I like it, but I was thinking about disarm. It would need a big penalty, or there would be a massive advantage of not being able to be disarmed yourself.

I only read the first few pages before I got sick of reading about how so and so was in the military and thus knows all about wrist razors and ninja knife sheaths (because we totally use those in Afghanistan you know).

I'm agreeing with the OP and Lizzie on this one.

Look rare items are cool, and they're neat to serve as status symbols for long lived PC's, so long as they have an IC reason to be rare.

Sheaths are not rare.
Straps of leather with spikes on them are not rare.

I vote they be adjusted accordingly.

This is by no means official staff stance on it, but this is my personal thoughts on it:

The item in question circumvents the intended coding used for combat. It literally changes reality - after a fashion, if you look at Code as the backbone of the reality. As do things like 3-room-shooting bows - which are also intended to be rare.

The fact that the items exist is meant to enrich the gameworld, giving more variety to things, and offering interesting possible 'extras'. If the items were changed not to give the bonus, someone would be on the GDB crying 'nerf', and if they were given to everyone, the fact that they circumvent the code would literally change the overall reality of the combat code - and with the vast majority of people. The same, again, with the bows.

No, it's not specifically IC, it is both IC and OOC: If you think about the fact that any one of the people you sell those to would be able to shred your clan's hunters faces, or shoot/antagonize with the bows from 3 rooms... All that does is endow people with power you might not WANT everyone and their brother to have.

And we could change them to be diamond-encrusted, but that would make it even more OOC for every other even slightly combat oriented pc to try to wear the same thing.

/fin

The glorious 3 rooms bows I overlooked in this thread because despite the crazy difference in their uses and how they might change the strategies of their users, they tend to not just be worth the coin codedly, but look the part as well.

Sheaths, there is simply no argument they should be rare. None. They need to be common.

Maybe take away some of the appeal to the wrist razors so the price can be made realistic, nerf damage, nerf how often the ability triggers, make the ability not function at all until the user reaches a certain level of off/def (which is almost the case anyway). Give the use of wrist razor weapons a penalty to defense.

Quote from: Synthesis on April 23, 2011, 02:24:13 AM
I think if your PC is strong enough, you should be able to rip someone's arm off as a critical reversal of a spiked bracer miss.  You could then use the resulting "spike-bracered severed arm" to *shlif* them to death.

If you do this enough, you can send in a request to have the "*shlif*fing weapons" and "smirking weapons" skills added to your list.

A tregil smirks at you as it beats you to death your own bloody, severed arm.

I don't  get where people have all this talk about them doing crazy damage. They've never seemed to me to do much damage at all.

Quote from: HavokBlue on April 24, 2011, 12:39:34 AM
What about instead of hard-coded changes, people just play realistically/in-character and not use six inch wrist-spikes/razers/whatever when they're fighting with a 12 foot spear from the back of an inix?

The problem with this is that there is no way to turn these items' scripts off.

If you're wearing scripted spiked bracers as your normal wrist armour, there's no way to be like "heeey this time I just want them to protect my wrists plz."

I suppose you could carry around another set of bracers and swap between encounters on the North Road, but that seems equally strange to me.

Quote from: jhunter on April 29, 2011, 05:57:54 PM
I don't  get where people have all this talk about them doing crazy damage. They've never seemed to me to do much damage at all.

I personally have experienced 1-6 damage from wrist razors. There are lots of factors that determine how much damage goes out.

They should work like those rat tails that got nerfed. They turned your barehanded fists into 'whipping' weapons if you wore them on your wrists. Wrist razors should work like that. Those rat tails also let you parry. Wrist razors should also work like that.

Quote from: Majikal on April 29, 2011, 06:02:23 PM

Quote from: jhunter on April 29, 2011, 05:57:54 PM
I don't  get where people have all this talk about them doing crazy damage. They've never seemed to me to do much damage at all.

I personally have experienced 1-6 damage from wrist razors. There are lots of factors that determine how much damage goes out.

That doesn't seem excessive to me. Granted a stronger person using them is likely going to hit for more so... *shrugs*

Quote from: jhunter on April 29, 2011, 06:12:30 PM

Quote from: Majikal on April 29, 2011, 06:02:23 PM

Quote from: jhunter on April 29, 2011, 05:57:54 PM
I don't  get where people have all this talk about them doing crazy damage. They've never seemed to me to do much damage at all.

I personally have experienced 1-6 damage from wrist razors. There are lots of factors that determine how much damage goes out.

That doesn't seem excessive to me. Granted a stronger person using them is likely going to hit for more so... *shrugs*

It doesn't seem excessive until you realize that despite your mastered shield and parry skills, you're still getting 1-6 damage every couple of rounds even though your opponent can't manage to hit you with their weapon.

Shit adds up, yo.

The day or two days prior to charge being revamped, the living reason for it attacked my pc. I was sitting and unarmed wearing two wrist razors. I was run down from 130hp to 0 with charge attacks alone while the attacker never landed a weapon attack on me. All my punches bounced off their armor. But from where I sat, unarmed despite my bracers. I brought a dwarf down to poor health. Shit adds up yo. Had I had 10-15 more seconds of shliffing actions, this would be in the brag thread.

All I have to say is your experiences with them are complete opposites of my experiences with them. They never seem to do much damage and I never seem to be hit by someone with them that can't at least hit me with a weapon otherwise. If they can't hit me with a weapon, they don't ever land those item attacks either. *shrug*

I think you parry or block an attack from someone when the attack would have otherwise hit you. The thing about the razors and claws is even if someone could normally block or parry your attacks, the razors and claws function pretty much on attack/defence, so they ignore parry and block. That's what I gather from this, anyway.

So basically what you're saying is that their pcs were getting hit by them because the parry and block skills don't come into play vs those items and their pc's base defense sucked?

Quote from: jhunter on April 30, 2011, 12:28:19 PM
So basically what you're saying is that their pcs were getting hit by them because the parry and block skills don't come into play vs those items and their pc's base defense sucked?

They're saying in long fights (because either both combatants have high defense, or both have low offense, or whatever), being seldom hit by the bracers for a tiny bit of damage can still add up.

So they pretty much want parry and block to work against those items (or have them removed completely) so that their pc's weakness can't be exploited by them?

Quote from: jhunter on April 30, 2011, 01:08:03 PM
So they pretty much want parry and block to work against those items (or have them removed completely) so that their pc's weakness can't be exploited by them?

It's not a weakness. It's that your opponent has a silly item that bypasses the combat code, while you do not.

This wouldn't be an issue if they were more realistic (only useful in close combat) or more readily available.

No. It's a weakness. It doesn't bypass the code it bypasses specific skills. Your pc can still be trained better to deal with something like that.

Quote from: jhunter on April 30, 2011, 01:38:33 PM
No. It's a weakness. It doesn't bypass the code it bypasses specific skills. Your pc can still be trained better to deal with something like that.

Bypassing specific skills that are specifically coded specifically for combat....

And since there's no "dodge wrist razor" skill, I doubt anyone can be trained to deal with them.

You have a base offense and a base defense that can be trained. If you guys want parry and block to work with them then they'd -never- hit unless you exceptionally outclass them because they only get your base offense. So really, what would need to be done to make it functional and fix your complaint (which like I said, is something that can currently be dealt with) Make them get a check vs parry and block skills and -also- make them go off your weapon skill like any other weapon.

Quote from: jhunter on April 30, 2011, 03:44:32 PM
So really, what would need to be done to make it functional and fix your complaint (which like I said, is something that can currently be dealt with) Make them get a check vs parry and block skills and -also- make them go off your weapon skill like any other weapon.

I could dig it.

There are lots of possible ways to fix the issue. But if you want to obey the KISS (keep it simple, stupid) rule, there are a few options:

1. Remove the items entirely from the game.
2. Remove the effects of the items, from the coded damage to the coded echoes. Nerf them, in other words.
3. Remove the OOC Staff-imposed rarety and expense, make them *all* craftable by their respective clans, and allow PCs to sell and profit or not, based on their ability to market the item through roleplay.
4. Combine #2 and #3 in such a way that the odds of a successful *shlif* are reduced, but not eliminated, DO eliminate the smirk echo, and eliminate the staff-imposed rarety, minimize the "house cost," and leave the top-value and craftability up to the players.

Any of the four options above would be easier to do, than determining how much bonus defense should get, vs. which item is being used (I mean what if they've got the claw gloves, one wrist razor from clan A, and a spiked bracer from clan B? Now you're dealing with the code having to do multiple calculations).

If spiked-whatevers they stay in game as they are, they should stay restricted and expensive.  It's an unfortunate OOC thing we'll have to deal with.

Only if they are nerfed in some way (made vanilla weapons, made vanilla armor, etc.) do I think it's a good idea to remove their restricted status.  They are a powerful tool, and they need to be controlled accordingly.  If everyone had access to them always... everyone would probably have them.  It would be silly.

So you all know, there is at least one sheath that is very very simple to craft.

Quote from: Feco on May 01, 2011, 11:56:54 AM
So you all know, there is at least one sheath that is very very simple to craft.

I took the time to highlight the problem here for you. You're welcome.

I think the sheath thing is a more glaring problem myself and deserves some time and effort over other's gripes about something they just personally dislike. Sheaths and scabbards should be common, maybe not the "fancy" ones but the majority of pcs that carry bladed weapons should have them housed properly. It's even more crucial considering the materials bladed weapons are made out of. At least simple sheaths and scabbards should be readily available anywhere that bladed weapons are sold.

You all know that the 'extra attack' combat items ARE restricted, right?

My suggestion, if the idea is to keep these things restricted due to an OOC "coolness" factor, is to give them an IC coolness factor. Get a list of -all- combat bracers/gloves, and sheaths. Remove them, and add in Craftable ones that are very high quality. No more "This one has little spikes of numut in it so it does the same thing." Make it so if you DO have these items, you paid a lot because they are, indeed, fancy and expensive to make. Not because Salarr won't virtually release the information on how to angle the spikes to be effective.

So, in the end, a pair of [SDESC REMOVED] gloves would have tortoiseshell buttons, soaked in the blood of an elven virgin for suppleness, and twice blessed by a Templar for good luck. Then you can justify "We only have access to a couple of these a year, and they are expensive."

Quote from: Marshmellow on May 01, 2011, 01:30:53 PM
You all know that the 'extra attack' combat items ARE restricted, right?

That's the point of the thread. To complain about their existence, BECAUSE they are restricted even though according to their mdesc, they should be VERY common, and VERY easy to make. The restriction is an OOC device, not an IC one. Also, the sheath items don't have *any* attack, let alone an extra one, and yet they have the same restrictions as the extra attack items.

Quote from: Riev on May 01, 2011, 01:34:33 PM
My suggestion, if the idea is to keep these things restricted due to an OOC "coolness" factor, is to give them an IC coolness factor. Get a list of -all- combat bracers/gloves, and sheaths. Remove them, and add in Craftable ones that are very high quality. No more "This one has little spikes of numut in it so it does the same thing." Make it so if you DO have these items, you paid a lot because they are, indeed, fancy and expensive to make. Not because Salarr won't virtually release the information on how to angle the spikes to be effective.

So, in the end, a pair of [SDESC REMOVED] gloves would have tortoiseshell buttons, soaked in the blood of an elven virgin for suppleness, and twice blessed by a Templar for good luck. Then you can justify "We only have access to a couple of these a year, and they are expensive."

Exactly. If there's no *believable* reason why Kurac can't make enough spiked gloves to accommodate their own Fist crew in the same game-month, then they should change the gloves so that it -does- make IC sense. And if they can't change the gloves, then they should just get rid of them. They're not THAT cool and people CAN use them to injure/kill characters even if they have zero coded combat skill and their victim has uber coded defenses.

Quote from: Marshmellow on May 01, 2011, 01:30:53 PM
You all know that the 'extra attack' combat items ARE restricted, right?

Yeah. I do.

Quote from: Lizzie on May 01, 2011, 01:38:31 PM

Quote from: Riev on May 01, 2011, 01:34:33 PM
My suggestion, if the idea is to keep these things restricted due to an OOC "coolness" factor, is to give them an IC coolness factor. Get a list of -all- combat bracers/gloves, and sheaths. Remove them, and add in Craftable ones that are very high quality. No more "This one has little spikes of numut in it so it does the same thing." Make it so if you DO have these items, you paid a lot because they are, indeed, fancy and expensive to make. Not because Salarr won't virtually release the information on how to angle the spikes to be effective.

So, in the end, a pair of [SDESC REMOVED] gloves would have tortoiseshell buttons, soaked in the blood of an elven virgin for suppleness, and twice blessed by a Templar for good luck. Then you can justify "We only have access to a couple of these a year, and they are expensive."

Exactly. If there's no *believable* reason why Kurac can't make enough spiked gloves to accommodate their own Fist crew in the same game-month, then they should change the gloves so that it -does- make IC sense. And if they can't change the gloves, then they should just get rid of them. They're not THAT cool and people CAN use them to injure/kill characters even if they have zero coded combat skill and their victim has uber coded defenses.

This part is 100% untrue.

I think there is something to be said about OOCly restricting them, though, because of the fact that we'd otherwise have every even slightly-combat-oriented character in game wearing them.  I think making them of something super-expensive just to justify the OOC restrictions ICly is a little silly, though.  They shouldn't be made of extremely precious materials, but then again they shouldn't be made of something so common that they can be mass-produced.  I think justifying them as extremely difficult to make and having them clan-only is sufficient, or should we completely do away with the clan-specific recipes?  If Salarr doesn't teach anyone how to make them, just like any other clan-specific, nobody should be able to make them except Salarr.  I'd be fine with them being craftable by PCs, so long as it is a difficult procedure, like it has to be built in stages (craft a+b>c, craft d+e>f, craft c+f>g) and consumes materials like mad (especially on a fail), and have it made from materials that aren't common while not being super-rare/expensive.

Edit: After going back to get more caught up, jhunter's last post is correct.  Combat skill of some sort IS involved in the use of 'extra attack' items.

I think there should be a command for slashing someone across the face. And it should work a lot like kick. Or flipping weapons.

>use weapon - "you flip your weapon around bringing up the bladed end/ bringing up the haft." - delay
>kick - "you kick what's his face with a brutal side-kick." - delay
>use bracers - "You swipe your bracers across his face" - delay

And when you do use them, and miss. You should be left off balance or your opponent has a free shot you.

Quote from: Chettaman on May 01, 2011, 02:08:15 PM
I think there should be a command for slashing someone across the face. And it should work a lot like kick. Or flipping weapons.

>use weapon - "you flip your weapon around bringing up the bladed end/ bringing up the haft." - delay
>kick - "you kick what's his face with a brutal side-kick." - delay
>use bracers - "You swipe your bracers across his face" - delay

And when you do use them, and miss. You should be left off balance or your opponent has a free shot you.

I'm with this. I still think that "kick" should just be "extra attack". This would make the 'kick' skill more interesting.

We already have 'kick' which can be used as a generic extra attack, so this suggestion of Chetta's is somewhat redundant.

Yes. There is already kick. There is already bash, and already disarm. An extra attack after an extra attack after an extra attack. Giving you an extra advantage. They all have commands. Even weapons with the special flip command has a command. Why not the bracers instead of them just slicing open your opponent's face. That -really- gets annoying during training.

Quote from: Marshmellow on May 01, 2011, 01:49:37 PM
I think there is something to be said about OOCly restricting them, though, because of the fact that we'd otherwise have every even slightly-combat-oriented character in game wearing them.  I think making them of something super-expensive just to justify the OOC restrictions ICly is a little silly, though.  They shouldn't be made of extremely precious materials, but then again they shouldn't be made of something so common that they can be mass-produced.  I think justifying them as extremely difficult to make and having them clan-only is sufficient, or should we completely do away with the clan-specific recipes?  If Salarr doesn't teach anyone how to make them, just like any other clan-specific, nobody should be able to make them except Salarr.  I'd be fine with them being craftable by PCs, so long as it is a difficult procedure, like it has to be built in stages (craft a+b>c, craft d+e>f, craft c+f>g) and consumes materials like mad (especially on a fail), and have it made from materials that aren't common while not being super-rare/expensive.

Edit: After going back to get more caught up, jhunter's last post is correct.  Combat skill of some sort IS involved in the use of 'extra attack' items.

The things we're talking about are *not* craftable by Salarr PCs. Or Kurac PCs. They are available via special-order only, and this is supposedly an imposed OOC restriction. PC crafters of Salarr/Kurac -cannot- make these things. You can order them a game-year in advance, hope that the PC who sold them to you hasn't stored by then, and the PC can only place the order for one set per game-month. So if you're a templar, who has 3 Legionairres who worked tirelessly to save Tuluk from deth & destrukshun, and want to get them each their own matching set of Kurac sheaths and Kurac spiked gloves, you're shit out of luck. You can get one of each. And only if someone else didn't already get a set that month. And only if the PC hasn't lined up 4 people ahead of you who already paid their mandatory deposit up front for them. And only if the staff member remembers to actually load them up, after 3 e-mails reminding them that you've been waiting for them for over a RL month. And then, only if some other clanned PC doesn't see them loaded up, and takes them to sell them to someone else - because the restriction makes it impossible to satisfy people who CAN afford them, who have the influence to cause hurt to your PC if you delay them, who know damned well that there's no *believable* reason why, among the dozens of master crafters, apprentice crafters, and assistant crafters, your house can't manage to produce a few sets per RL week.

There -are- craftable items like these, but those aren't the ones anyone has a problem with because - since they're craftable, they're not restricted. Any high-skilled crafter in that clan (and in some cases, you don't even have to be in any clan at all, or even need to be a highly skilled crafter) can make them. It's the ones that are special-order only, non-craftable, one-per-month imposed by staff, and yet look like nothing more than a strip of raptor hide with a few gith teeth sticking up from them, or a strip of raptor hide with a little sheath attached to one side, that buckles to your arm instead of your belt, that anyone really has a problem with.

Quote from: Chettaman on May 01, 2011, 02:46:27 PM
Yes. There is already kick. There is already bash, and already disarm. An extra attack after an extra attack after an extra attack. Giving you an extra advantage. They all have commands. Even weapons with the special flip command has a command. Why not the bracers instead of them just slicing open your opponent's face. That -really- gets annoying during training.

Typically since they aren't a "training" weapon it's kinda unrealistic for them to normally be allowed to be used during training. I know that others I've played with and myself have never allowed this under normal circumstances. I saw a pc once get whipped for forgetting to take them off before training.

Their worn on your wrist, like armor, despite the fact they are a weapon. - but then. What isn't a weapon?

*nevermind* Need to make sure I read it all. lol

Just to put this out here, the most interesting ideas I've thought of for this:


Keep the OOC restrictions on these items, but make them ONLY available through special orders. Re-do the mdescs to show that they are of fine quality and made with extreme care etc etc.

-and/or-

Change the syntax of "kick" to "strike". Make the kick boots, and combat bracers, all utilize this code, and do an extra <x> damage or increase chance of "strike" landing by <x> percent. That way, if someone walks around with kick boots, combat bracers, and spikey gloves, they don't auto-trigger a script, but instead increase the "strike" skill, which only a couple guilds/subguilds get anyways. (Though this might be argued, I won't give the reasons)

Lizzie, yes, I know they are not craftable by PCs.  I'm not completely ignorant.  I've played a Salarri agent, however, and am quite familiar with the rules on how the item works.  I proposed a solution for making them craftable as well as justified why they don't need to be made of stupidly valuable materials.

It's either that or do as Riev suggested and simply remove all of them as craftable and make them all special order only.

In my eyes, those are the solutions.  Pick one.

Quote from: Marshmellow on May 02, 2011, 04:36:50 AM
Lizzie, yes, I know they are not craftable by PCs.  I'm not completely ignorant.  I've played a Salarri agent, however, and am quite familiar with the rules on how the item works.  I proposed a solution for making them craftable as well as justified why they don't need to be made of stupidly valuable materials.

It's either that or do as Riev suggested and simply remove all of them as craftable and make them all special order only.

In my eyes, those are the solutions.  Pick one.

If they're made craftable, then they won't be limited, and they won't necessarily be expensive. Any crafter in the clan with enough coded skill will be able to make them, including the dishonest ones who (in-characterishly) make several and sell them on the sly, cheap, thus reducing their value. Which - would be great, in my opinion, but the staff wants them limited so that won't be an option.

If they're ALL made special order, then this will further encourage the OOC imposition on an un-roleplayable situation, given that half of this stuff is described, by the mdesc, as made from cheap, common materials into rather simple designs. So that would just perpetuate the problem that exists, which is why this thread exists.

Your first idea would be great, but only IF the staff backed down and said, "ya know what, this stuff is just another weapon, fuck it, let them have it."

But they're not doing that.

My suggestion can be applied to all craftable items, to control them through materials and crafting, making crafting more difficult and requiring more stages in the construction.  Did you read the post where I suggested these things?

I was also justifying WHY they can be limited ICly just by this process.

pshaw everyone knows you can just go kill those npcs that have them anyway

if you cant kill the npcs or dont know where they are youre not cool enough to wear them

Quote from: Synthesis on May 02, 2011, 06:19:02 PM
pshaw everyone knows you can just go kill those npcs that have them anyway

if you cant kill the npcs or dont know where they are youre not cool enough to wear them

You shouldn't just run around pegging NPCs for their super cool gear, that's kind of twinkish.

hey i was just sightseeing and they came after me

Quote from: Synthesis on May 02, 2011, 06:37:41 PM
hey i was just sightseeing and they came after me

This made me LOL so hard  :D

Pretty sure that, at this point, everything that can be said on the subject has been.

If only Ghost were still here ... he could lock the thread.

those powers have been taken away from me man

i cant anymore

mon whira summon thread lock

Quote from: Saellyn on May 02, 2011, 06:22:00 PM

Quote from: Synthesis on May 02, 2011, 06:19:02 PM
pshaw everyone knows you can just go kill those npcs that have them anyway

if you cant kill the npcs or dont know where they are youre not cool enough to wear them

You shouldn't just run around pegging NPCs for their super cool gear, that's kind of twinkish.

It can be perfectly IC to kill someone for their gear. Otherwise every mugger, raider, etc would be a twink.

But if you're using NPCs as a farm to get that rare gear and sell them to PCs, then maybe, yeah.

Quote from: SMuz on May 04, 2011, 10:10:21 AM

Quote from: Saellyn on May 02, 2011, 06:22:00 PM

Quote from: Synthesis on May 02, 2011, 06:19:02 PM
pshaw everyone knows you can just go kill those npcs that have them anyway

if you cant kill the npcs or dont know where they are youre not cool enough to wear them

You shouldn't just run around pegging NPCs for their super cool gear, that's kind of twinkish.

It can be perfectly IC to kill someone for their gear. Otherwise every mugger, raider, etc would be a twink.

But if you're using NPCs as a farm to get that rare gear and sell them to PCs, then maybe, yeah.

Actually, this does raise a good point. While it can be IC to kill for gear, absolutely, is it twinkish to kill for gear that has little IC value but is nifty/rare on an OOC level? In this case, the strip of leather with sharp things poked through would be something to murder for because it's unique OOC, but from an IC perspective it doesn't make much sense to be rare or valuable, so is that twinkery? Especially if you ignore the guy with gem-studded armbands because they don't have the same coded OOC benefits.

If it is twinky to kill someone because a piece of gear has OOC value, doesn't that mean the current policies about that piece of gear are contributing to twinkery? It seems like anything which adds OOC motivations to IC actions ought to be a major no-no. You can pick that apart and draw all sorts of smaller conclusions on why that's bad, but in the end, this item is essentially a motivator for OOC actions in a game that is supposed to be RPI. For that reason alone, I think it ought to be revamped to be made more in character, though I don't know enough about it to say how the revamp would be the best course of action.

Continuing the "what makes it twinky" tangent, I believe it is twinky to go search out the NPC that has such gear because you, the player, know this when your character has no reason to know.

Other than looking cool, nothing good (for the game as a whole) ever came from fighting bracer/gloves  They are inconsistent with the rest of the combat code.  As a result it gives them an advantage verses combatants that don't have them.  Using a shield or parrying doesn't matter when fighting against someone with these items.  In a very close fight, these items will give an edge that can and does push one person over the top to win.  They can even deal killing blows.

They're not just trophy items.  They give clear advantages to combatants, unlike any other 'mundane' items in the game.  They might as well be magick items.

Quote from: a strange shadow on April 21, 2011, 07:36:39 PM
But then what would we wear as OOC status symbols?

</sarcasm>

I agree.

Metal or magick items.

[added]

However something like spiked bracers might be useful for unarmed combatants, aiding with parrying blows and striking unarmed combatants, but it seems highly unrealistic for them to be used offensively against an armed opponent.

Quote from: EldritchOrigins on May 05, 2011, 12:19:31 PM
Other than looking cool, nothing good (for the game as a whole) ever came from fighting bracer/gloves  They are inconsistent with the rest of the combat code.  As a result it gives them an advantage verses combatants that don't have them.  Using a shield or parrying doesn't matter when fighting against someone with these items.  In a very close fight, these items will give an edge that can and does push one person over the top to win.  They can even deal killing blows.

They're not just trophy items.  They give clear advantages to combatants, unlike any other 'mundane' items in the game.  They might as well be magick items.

Quote from: a strange shadow on April 21, 2011, 07:36:39 PM
But then what would we wear as OOC status symbols?

</sarcasm>

I agree.

Metal or magick items.

[added]

However something like spiked bracers might be useful for unarmed combatants, aiding with parrying blows and striking unarmed combatants, but it seems highly unrealistic for them to be used offensively against an armed opponent.

I suppose when I see the code for these items scroll by I picture in my head that the opponent or my self has made a misstep and drawn in close. Close quarter combat, in itself will find opponents never simply staying in front of each other, but constantly moving in and around. I don't find it hard to believe that one could draw in close enough to offer a swift, spiked punch to another's face.
As well, in regards to unfair advantage; do away with shields, then move on to various weapons and armor, make it so everyone has to wear leather only, any only one type of leather. Then give them only one type of weapon, all the same weapon. Next remove all class differences and taint, magic, stat bonuses.
This will be a fir bases to thus say, ok there are no advantages. But wait, then you will have to make it that no matter how much training there is that no one ever betters themselves. This will allow an even and equal playing field between combatants.

This is how I read the complaint of unfair advantages, when people complain about them. My point is simple, nothing in life is absolutely fair and equal. So if the suggestion is to get rid of these items then I say, I disagree.

Now I may have misunderstood the quote, but it sounds like some one concerned with fair play in an unfair world.

My complaint isn't that they're "unfair" in the sense that they grant an advantage...but that they grant an advantage that seems to bypass what is taken for granted as the base abilities of the two combatants.

If you can't touch someone with a sword, or with a dagger, there is no reason you should be able to pop them in the face with the back of your wrist...but the script doesn't work like that, unless your defense is so OBSCENELY better than your opponent's offense that you could probably disengage and kick them to death without even having the kick skill.

Seems the people most in favor of shliffing people up are those that don't understand the code involved.

I would like to see people trying to bend the code so that it reflects realism rather than all the idiots I see trying to bend realism to fit the code, though that's with just about any topic involving code.  ::)

While the bracers/gloves are a nice, neat and interesting addition to the combat code there coolness has made them unrealistic both codedly and trade-wise. To think that bob the sergeant for premier merchant house Z just dropped 1/2 a years pay on a 'spiked leather bracer' and folks are amazed that he was able to get it so cheap. Ridiculous.

Quote from: Majikal on May 06, 2011, 06:51:19 PM
Seems the people most in favor of shliffing people up are those that don't understand the code involved.

One could say the same about many who are against them as well.

Yes, they are somewhat broken. It -can- currently be dealt with through IC means though. Rather than get rid of them, I say do as I suggested earlier to fix the problem. Also, one has to keep in mind the obvious exaggeration that people who are unable to hit an opponent -at all- are beating them to death with those items alone. I know I've been on the dealing and receiving end of those items over the years and I've never experienced it. Is it possible for it to happen? Sure in theory, but the way combat code works and the way characters can be trained makes it very -unlikely- for that to actually be the case, much less for it to be a common occurance. The pricing thing? Well, that's really both the player's and the staff's fault for both creating OOC restrictions on them and for paying too much for them because OOCly they're nifty. I say make them cheap, make them common, and make them (with the exception of really fancy ones) pc craftable. Add more other items that give other coded benefits intead of an extra attack for people to choose from.

It's not a problem when it's 1 v 1.

But when you're going 3 v 1 and pwning noobs but getting hit 6 times a round for 2 damage apiece just by the stupid fucking bracers, and the noob bitches fighting you can't even touch you with their weapons, that's when it gets aggravating as hell.

Quote from: Synthesis on May 06, 2011, 09:00:13 PM
It's not a problem when it's 1 v 1.

But when you're going 3 v 1 and pwning noobs but getting hit 6 times a round for 2 damage apiece just by the stupid fucking bracers, and the noob bitches fighting you can't even touch you with their weapons, that's when it gets aggravating as hell.

Wouldn't it be quite unlikely that three noobs could get their hands on two bracers each? And all know each other enough to gang up on you?

Quote from: BleakOne on May 06, 2011, 09:04:28 PM

Quote from: Synthesis on May 06, 2011, 09:00:13 PM
It's not a problem when it's 1 v 1.

But when you're going 3 v 1 and pwning noobs but getting hit 6 times a round for 2 damage apiece just by the stupid fucking bracers, and the noob bitches fighting you can't even touch you with their weapons, that's when it gets aggravating as hell.

Wouldn't it be quite unlikely that three noobs could get their hands on two bracers each? And all know each other enough to gang up on you?

When you're badass enough, 99% of the PCs in game are noob-like (in melee).

In the situation you just described it is not just the way bracers work allowing them to hit you. You are suffering a penalty of sorts in that situation that is allowing them to hit you and I'm sure you know that.

Quote from: jhunter on May 06, 2011, 09:17:34 PM
In the situation you just described it is not just the way bracers work allowing them to hit you. You are suffering a penalty of sorts in that situation that is allowing them to hit you and I'm sure you know that.

If only the bracers are hitting you, something is wrong.

Quote from: Synthesis on May 06, 2011, 09:19:36 PM

Quote from: jhunter on May 06, 2011, 09:17:34 PM
In the situation you just described it is not just the way bracers work allowing them to hit you. You are suffering a penalty of sorts in that situation that is allowing them to hit you and I'm sure you know that.

If only the bracers are hitting you, something is wrong.

Could be that with that many people your pc is focused on dealing with all the weapons flying at them and the oddball stuff is getting through. That seems a reasonable explanation. Also, it's obvious they're not as much noob compared to you as you think if the penalty allows their base attack to get past your base defense. What I mean is, if the same situation occured but none of you were using weapons, you'd be taken down fairly easy by them because even -more- of their attacks would land on you then.

Oh, I see what you mean now Synthesis. I can see how it is silly that someone who can't hit you with a punch, dagger, sword or spear could somehow manage to hit you with a spiked bracer.

Still don't see it happening in all but the rare bunch-of-people-being-twinks way though. Someone who was in the top range (above 99% of PCs) should be able to wtfpwn three noobs quite easily though, even if they're actually 2-hp hiting him regularly, right? I've seen a few such PCs in my time playing, and they could easily kill three or even four other PCs at once if they wanted far too quickly to be whittled down to nothing.

This is not a code discussion area, and this discussion is becoming very sketchy at best, from my perspective.

Quote from: jhunter on May 06, 2011, 09:17:34 PM
In the situation you just described it is not just the way bracers work allowing them to hit you. You are suffering a penalty of sorts in that situation that is allowing them to hit you and I'm sure you know that.

To stop beating around the bush, I don't think anyone knows exactly how they work, and your claim that you do is bullshit.

jhunter wasn't claiming to know to know how they work, strawman.  He claimed to have never seen them do what others said they were doing and he claimed to have a working understanding of combat.

Quote from: Synthesis on May 06, 2011, 09:14:08 PM

Quote from: BleakOne on May 06, 2011, 09:04:28 PM

Quote from: Synthesis on May 06, 2011, 09:00:13 PM
It's not a problem when it's 1 v 1.

But when you're going 3 v 1 and pwning noobs but getting hit 6 times a round for 2 damage apiece just by the stupid fucking bracers, and the noob bitches fighting you can't even touch you with their weapons, that's when it gets aggravating as hell.

Wouldn't it be quite unlikely that three noobs could get their hands on two bracers each? And all know each other enough to gang up on you?

When you're badass enough, 99% of the PCs in game are noob-like (in melee).

I have myself dealt with the bracers and gloves. I believe it is untrue about them being so unbalanced in the sense that a better trained person could be taken by a lessor trained person solely based on the actions of the code on these items.

If you character is as bad ass as you would think they are, then they would avoid being hit. It is possible to evade the blows, and consistently.

Quote from: Potaje on May 07, 2011, 10:28:17 AM

Quote from: Synthesis on May 06, 2011, 09:14:08 PM

Quote from: BleakOne on May 06, 2011, 09:04:28 PM

Quote from: Synthesis on May 06, 2011, 09:00:13 PM
It's not a problem when it's 1 v 1.

But when you're going 3 v 1 and pwning noobs but getting hit 6 times a round for 2 damage apiece just by the stupid fucking bracers, and the noob bitches fighting you can't even touch you with their weapons, that's when it gets aggravating as hell.

Wouldn't it be quite unlikely that three noobs could get their hands on two bracers each? And all know each other enough to gang up on you?

When you're badass enough, 99% of the PCs in game are noob-like (in melee).

When you bad ass enough, not even bracers with spikes can touch you. This I know for a fact. Beef up you D.

Once again, if the only thing hitting you is the bracers, something is wrong.  I know perfectly well that it's possible to dodge them, and I said as much earlier, if you'd bothered reading the rest of the thread.

Quote from: Synthesis on May 07, 2011, 10:32:00 AM

Quote from: Potaje on May 07, 2011, 10:28:17 AM

Quote from: Synthesis on May 06, 2011, 09:14:08 PM

Quote from: BleakOne on May 06, 2011, 09:04:28 PM

Quote from: Synthesis on May 06, 2011, 09:00:13 PM
It's not a problem when it's 1 v 1.

But when you're going 3 v 1 and pwning noobs but getting hit 6 times a round for 2 damage apiece just by the stupid fucking bracers, and the noob bitches fighting you can't even touch you with their weapons, that's when it gets aggravating as hell.

Wouldn't it be quite unlikely that three noobs could get their hands on two bracers each? And all know each other enough to gang up on you?

When you're badass enough, 99% of the PCs in game are noob-like (in melee).

When you bad ass enough, not even bracers with spikes can touch you. This I know for a fact. Beef up you D.

Once again, if the only thing hitting you is the bracers, something is wrong.  I know perfectly well that it's possible to dodge them, and I said as much earlier, if you'd bothered reading the rest of the thread.

So the only defense against them is to twink out your combat skills?

Cool.

Quote from: Synthesis on May 07, 2011, 10:32:00 AM

Quote from: Potaje on May 07, 2011, 10:28:17 AM

Quote from: Synthesis on May 06, 2011, 09:14:08 PM

Quote from: BleakOne on May 06, 2011, 09:04:28 PM

Quote from: Synthesis on May 06, 2011, 09:00:13 PM
It's not a problem when it's 1 v 1.

But when you're going 3 v 1 and pwning noobs but getting hit 6 times a round for 2 damage apiece just by the stupid fucking bracers, and the noob bitches fighting you can't even touch you with their weapons, that's when it gets aggravating as hell.

Wouldn't it be quite unlikely that three noobs could get their hands on two bracers each? And all know each other enough to gang up on you?

When you're badass enough, 99% of the PCs in game are noob-like (in melee).

When you bad ass enough, not even bracers with spikes can touch you. This I know for a fact. Beef up you D.

Once again, if the only thing hitting you is the bracers, something is wrong.  I know perfectly well that it's possible to dodge them, and I said as much earlier, if you'd bothered reading the rest of the thread.

I love it when the hate comes out, Sure I read parts of the thread, till it became redundant, so perhaps I missed you other bits.

My point if you bothered to stop and offer it some thought was that perhaps there is nothing wrong with the fact that weapons can not touch you through the complexity of one situation but given another your simply not prepared to fully defend it.

So I'm supposed to be a mind-reader and anticipate arguments you'd make that are two to three premises removed from what you actually said?  Okay, then.  ::)

But to address your new argument (which has already been made, by the way, if you'd bothered reading the rest of the thread):  it's just highly implausible that, in a situation where you aren't good enough to hit someone with a knife, because he's actively fending you off, that you could hit him with what amounts to a knife strapped to your wrist. 

Can we not parry arms?  Can we not block them with shields?  The only way this makes sense is if you are an ethereal or inter-dimensional being.

Synthesis: 1   Potaje: 0

 I highly doubt the limited vision you share here, and more satirical quips limit you from envisioning the fact that perhaps their is a compound calculation of attacks when the spiked gear is assisting a weapon in place.

Your "Shield" or "parry" just isn't good enough to defend all that attacks, and the opponent "Obviously" drew in around it.
Had he been better trained. then no, the spiked gear would not have touch them. Period.
 

QuoteHad he been better trained. then no, the spiked gear would not have touch them. Period.

Quote from: Marshmellow on May 07, 2011, 09:58:37 AM
jhunter wasn't claiming to know to know how they work, strawman.  He claimed to have never seen them do what others said they were doing and he claimed to have a working understanding of combat.

Whatever, man. The fact remains that they add an element to combat that is unique to them, plus they are "limited" and artificially expensive, which was the original complaint.

Arguments that you should just buy one yourself or "train better" aren't addressing the issue.

Are you going to add to the discussion at all or just jump in to troll?

Quote from: jhunter on May 07, 2011, 12:03:48 PM
Are you going to add to the discussion at all or just jump in to troll?

So I'm trolling for calling out your non-sequitur of an argument?

Argument A: The item is unique and adds something to combat that cannot be reproduced without said item. Said item is also unrealistically hard to obtain and expensive.
Argument B: Well if it adds something to combat, obviously your character isn't buff enough. He should have learned to dodge better.

Huh?

You're completely missing the point. I'm not going to waste time re-explaining it over and over again.  ::) You're trolling for blatantly being rude to me for my stance on one part of the discussion. I agree with the other part of the discussion.

Quote from: Potaje on May 07, 2011, 11:02:58 AM
I highly doubt the limited vision you share here, and more satirical quips limit you from envisioning the fact that perhaps their is a compound calculation of attacks when the spiked gear is assisting a weapon in place.

Your "Shield" or "parry" just isn't good enough to defend all that attacks, and the opponent "Obviously" drew in around it.
Had he been better trained. then no, the spiked gear would not have touch them. Period.
 

Okay, I wouldn't have a problem with the whole thing if "wrist-razor usage" was a separate skill that you could train (maybe it is...I never was able to play around with the razor weapons skill, much).  However, the idea that someone who has just been regularly sparring throughout his life, and be unable to so much as touch a particular opponent, then strap on a wrist-razor or spiked bracer and suddenly be able to whack them in the face without fail is ludicrous.

Furthermore, this doesn't even begin to address the question of why there isn't any armor that can protect against them.

Overall, though, I think they would be fixed if the script had a critical fail attached to it:  if you swipe at someone and they're that much better than you (or you roll a natural 1 in the RNG), they get a free attack on your wrist.  Also, there should be a minor nerf to your attack speed while wearing them, perhaps after rounds where you attempt strikes with the razors/bracers, because if you're spending so much time trying to penetrate your opponent's defenses with bracer backhands, you can't possibly be spending the same amount of time mounting weapon attacks as you would have been, previously.

Oh, but then they wouldn't be nearly as desirable, from a code perspective.

Wow this thread has gone off topic, to great lengths and extremes.

Why not open a new thread to discuss the code of razor weapons, which can be summarily locked after too many people start talking too much about how the code does/does not work, or how they're not making changes to the code, and they don't want suggestions for Reborn anymore?

This thread, is a gripe about how a couple of items INCLUDING SHEATHS WHICH HAVE NO COMBAT FUNCTION AT ALL have been designated ultra rare, special order only, order at least a year in advance, once per month per merchant who's selling it, at game-staff-dictated minimum prices which are artifically created only to justify the fact that they're rare. Which - if you go by their mdescs, they shouldn't be rare. Or special order, or advance order, or one month per merchant, or expensive.

They're just not that fancy. That includes the sheaths. Which have no combat function at all.

Quote from: Lizzie on May 07, 2011, 04:12:08 PM
Wow this thread has gone off topic, to great lengths and extremes.

Why not open a new thread to discuss the code of razor weapons, which can be summarily locked after too many people start talking too much about how the code does/does not work, or how they're not making changes to the code, and they don't want suggestions for Reborn anymore?

This thread, is a gripe about how a couple of items INCLUDING SHEATHS WHICH HAVE NO COMBAT FUNCTION AT ALL have been designated ultra rare, special order only, order at least a year in advance, once per month per merchant who's selling it, at game-staff-dictated minimum prices which are artifically created only to justify the fact that they're rare. Which - if you go by their mdescs, they shouldn't be rare. Or special order, or advance order, or one month per merchant, or expensive.

They're just not that fancy. That includes the sheaths. Which have no combat function at all.

How is the recent discussion off-topic?

The OP is about having to react to seemingly overpriced items.
     -Why are the items overpriced?
          -Staff mandate to GMHs.
               -Why the staff mandate?
                    -Because the items grant such a useful coded advantage that everyone would use them if they could afford to.
                         -Does this coded advantage make sense (or even exist, or is it that bad)? Y/N.

That seems like a pretty natural extension of the OP, actually.  And if the items in question were fixed after having been found to grant an unreasonable coded advantage, it would remove the reason for the mandate, and would fix the OP's gripe, because they would no longer need to be overpriced.

Also, I didn't say anything in particular about the razor weapons skill.  In fact, I pretty much specifically said that I don't know much about how it works.  Since there are "wrist razors" and a "razor weapons" skill, it's easy to speculate that possibly the razor weapons skill grants a bonus to using wrist razors in addition to its obvious function as the weapon skill for wieldable razor-type weapons, but it's purely speculation, and it's not the kind of connection that anyone with the equivalent of a 3rd-grade education would fail to make:  got same word; maybe related.  If I knew exactly how it worked, I probably wouldn't say anything.  Posting "KRATHIS PROBABLY CAN CAST FIREBALLS" is not exactly IC info, regardless of whether it's true or not.  It's just common sense.

Whether or not a wrist razor is affected by the razor weapons skill, has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that you have to order an arm sheath a RL month in advance, pay 1000 deposit for it, and IF your character lives long enough to get it, will receive in return, a long piece of raptor leather double-stitched with a buckle. And still owe 500 sids. And only be allowed to get one, that RL month.

::Edited because I probably shouldn't post with so much snark::

They jut hit too often I think. And you can't blame people for using them if other people will be using them too! Make them take off movement like kicks and everything else does, since that seems to be the general solution :P. I'd be fine with having to type "special strike" too or whatever name it is with lag.

RANT:
If anyone watched the Luir's Fest fights, I don't think the crowd couldn't see but people were getting mutilated by those things down there. It looked like one or two blows then people quit. No, like twenty bracers slashes to the face! And I know you CAN train unarmed or base offense or defense or whatever, but not as much as I would care to? If your mundane character can kill scrabs bare handed, there is no reason they should have to keep training to avoid get destroyed by two wrist guards (in my opinion).

Quote from: Lizzie on May 07, 2011, 06:03:30 PM
Whether or not a wrist razor is affected by the razor weapons skill, has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that you have to order an arm sheath a RL month in advance, pay 1000 deposit for it, and IF your character lives long enough to get it, will receive in return, a long piece of raptor leather double-stitched with a buckle. And still owe 500 sids. And only be allowed to get one, that RL month.

I incidentally mentioned that IF the use of the  items in question were always governed by a skill, like HYPOTHETICALLY a particular skill might work, then they wouldn't be such a big deal, which goes back to ===> wouldn't need to be overpriced and ordered a month in advance.  I think my point is valid, and isn't in any way a derail.

It's a potential solution to one of the OP's complaints.  How is that a derail?

Because wearing an armsheath isn't governed by a skill, so your hypothetical is irrelevent.

Quote from: Lizzie on May 07, 2011, 08:00:18 PM
Because wearing an armsheath isn't governed by a skill, so your hypothetical is irrelevent.

THE VERY FIRST LINE IN THE OP IS ABOUT A SPIKED BRACER

It's sort of a derail if you're talking about how they work. I think a lot of people agree that they suck and don't work realistically. I haven't actually encountered them in a full battle, so I can't really comment. The issue is what should be done about it.

I once had a shoulder-sheath. It was so badass, staff had to take it away from my character. Because it was a shoulder item.

I complain about that at least once a year.

I think the arbitrary restrictions on some items are both arbitrary and restrictive.

I think I've said it twice in this thread already, so I'm going to say it once more.


Make the sheath/combat-script weapons -all- special order. Each and every one, make it restrictive. Update and remove the ones that are, basically, some leather with some spikes, leaving just the more verbose, fancy looking weapons. Make it a reason to cost 1000 coins, not just because its got a script attached to it, but because its difficult to measure the angle of the spikes, and attain a good animal claw that won't become brittle when fired.

Same with sheaths. Because of the script/ability attached to them, if you're going to make them special order, make it 100% special order.

And heck, if you want to make them PC craftable, just add in a skill combat_sheaths, and make it a skill ONLY accessible when a PC is granted it from a GMH staff. This way, staff can be assure they're not just churning them out, but gives the crafters/merchants the ability to regulate and price on their own.

I disagree, Riev.  I think they shouldn't be so restricted and should be craftable, even.  I think the code for the combat script items should be examined, though, so that the staff are content with the balance for these items.

Quote from: Marshmellow on May 07, 2011, 10:43:15 PM
I disagree, Riev.  I think they shouldn't be so restricted and should be craftable, even.  I think the code for the combat script items should be examined, though, so that the staff are content with the balance for these items.

Here's the thing. I agree, and am always committed to the "If you can find it in game, it should be craftable" crowd. However, I'm going with what would take the stress and workload away from staff, including making the items craftable, as well as monitoring their usage.

I don't think that's a solution. Personally, I think it would magnify the problem. The costs of them would then go even more ridiculously high, -more- people would be seeking them, and they would take up more of staff's time with special orders. You'd also give more people a reason to bitch about the overpricing and waiting for special orders on them.

What if they weren't as strong but wee craftable and easily available like a sword is?

I do agree with Riev. Maybe they shouldn't be all rare and expensive, but they are going to be, dress them up so they look the part.

I think they might lose some of their awesomesauce if the use action came into effect much more rarely, shlif action cut down to 1/3 or 1/4 or 1/2 of what it currently is. Sometimes your shliffing matches your weaponswings blow for blow. The way I see it...

Take away the excessive cool/code factor like previously so the prices will climb down to more realistic amounts
Replace all simple bracers with fancy special order bracers.
Put skill checks into the script so that it isn't just an offense vs defense thing like it is now. Parry/shield use


Sort of curious what staff views are on the sheath/bracer discussion.

I would also accept renaming "kick" to "strike", making the code generally the same, and have all combat-scripted items changed to just add skill to the "strike" skill. If you want to get fancy, change the echo of "strike" depending of if you're wearing bracers, boots, etc.

That way, there is no "script", they're just as OOCly cool to have, and using them can be somewhat spammed, but does cause a lag, and could be blocked by shields, armor, etc.

Quote from: Riev on May 08, 2011, 03:02:07 PM
I would also accept renaming "kick" to "strike", making the code generally the same, and have all combat-scripted items changed to just add skill damage to the "strike" skill. If you want to get fancy, change the echo of "strike" depending of if you're wearing bracers, boots, etc.

That way, there is no "script", they're just as OOCly cool to have, and using them can be somewhat spammed, but does cause a lag, and could be blocked by shields, armor, etc.

Quote from: Riev on May 08, 2011, 03:02:07 PM
I would also accept renaming "kick" to "strike", making the code generally the same, and have all combat-scripted items changed to just add skill to the "strike" skill. If you want to get fancy, change the echo of "strike" depending of if you're wearing bracers, boots, etc.

That way, there is no "script", they're just as OOCly cool to have, and using them can be somewhat spammed, but does cause a lag, and could be blocked by shields, armor, etc.

Winner.

Agreed. Coolness.

I like Riev's proposal as well.

Though we still have sheaths to deal with.