A tregil smirks as you miss an uppercut

[Marshmellow]

We already have 'kick' which can be used as a generic extra attack, so this suggestion of Chetta's is somewhat redundant.

[Chettaman]

Yes. There is already kick. There is already bash, and already disarm. An extra attack after an extra attack after an extra attack. Giving you an extra advantage. They all have commands. Even weapons with the special flip command has a command. Why not the bracers instead of them just slicing open your opponent's face. That -really- gets annoying during training.

[Lizzie]

I think there is something to be said about OOCly restricting them, though, because of the fact that we'd otherwise have every even slightly-combat-oriented character in game wearing them.  I think making them of something super-expensive just to justify the OOC restrictions ICly is a little silly, though.  They shouldn't be made of extremely precious materials, but then again they shouldn't be made of something so common that they can be mass-produced.  I think justifying them as extremely difficult to make and having them clan-only is sufficient, or should we completely do away with the clan-specific recipes?  If Salarr doesn't teach anyone how to make them, just like any other clan-specific, nobody should be able to make them except Salarr.  I'd be fine with them being craftable by PCs, so long as it is a difficult procedure, like it has to be built in stages (craft a+b>c, craft d+e>f, craft c+f>g) and consumes materials like mad (especially on a fail), and have it made from materials that aren't common while not being super-rare/expensive.

Edit: After going back to get more caught up, jhunter's last post is correct.  Combat skill of some sort IS involved in the use of 'extra attack' items.

The things we're talking about are *not* craftable by Salarr PCs. Or Kurac PCs. They are available via special-order only, and this is supposedly an imposed OOC restriction. PC crafters of Salarr/Kurac -cannot- make these things. You can order them a game-year in advance, hope that the PC who sold them to you hasn't stored by then, and the PC can only place the order for one set per game-month. So if you're a templar, who has 3 Legionairres who worked tirelessly to save Tuluk from deth & destrukshun, and want to get them each their own matching set of Kurac sheaths and Kurac spiked gloves, you're shit out of luck. You can get one of each. And only if someone else didn't already get a set that month. And only if the PC hasn't lined up 4 people ahead of you who already paid their mandatory deposit up front for them. And only if the staff member remembers to actually load them up, after 3 e-mails reminding them that you've been waiting for them for over a RL month. And then, only if some other clanned PC doesn't see them loaded up, and takes them to sell them to someone else - because the restriction makes it impossible to satisfy people who CAN afford them, who have the influence to cause hurt to your PC if you delay them, who know damned well that there's no *believable* reason why, among the dozens of master crafters, apprentice crafters, and assistant crafters, your house can't manage to produce a few sets per RL week.

There -are- craftable items like these, but those aren't the ones anyone has a problem with because - since they're craftable, they're not restricted. Any high-skilled crafter in that clan (and in some cases, you don't even have to be in any clan at all, or even need to be a highly skilled crafter) can make them. It's the ones that are special-order only, non-craftable, one-per-month imposed by staff, and yet look like nothing more than a strip of raptor hide with a few gith teeth sticking up from them, or a strip of raptor hide with a little sheath attached to one side, that buckles to your arm instead of your belt, that anyone really has a problem with.

[jhunter]

Yes. There is already kick. There is already bash, and already disarm. An extra attack after an extra attack after an extra attack. Giving you an extra advantage. They all have commands. Even weapons with the special flip command has a command. Why not the bracers instead of them just slicing open your opponent's face. That -really- gets annoying during training.

Typically since they aren't a "training" weapon it's kinda unrealistic for them to normally be allowed to be used during training. I know that others I've played with and myself have never allowed this under normal circumstances. I saw a pc once get whipped for forgetting to take them off before training.

[Chettaman]

Their worn on your wrist, like armor, despite the fact they are a weapon. - but then. What isn't a weapon?

[jhunter]

*nevermind* Need to make sure I read it all. lol

[Riev]

Just to put this out here, the most interesting ideas I've thought of for this:


Keep the OOC restrictions on these items, but make them ONLY available through special orders. Re-do the mdescs to show that they are of fine quality and made with extreme care etc etc.

-and/or-

Change the syntax of "kick" to "strike". Make the kick boots, and combat bracers, all utilize this code, and do an extra <x> damage or increase chance of "strike" landing by <x> percent. That way, if someone walks around with kick boots, combat bracers, and spikey gloves, they don't auto-trigger a script, but instead increase the "strike" skill, which only a couple guilds/subguilds get anyways. (Though this might be argued, I won't give the reasons)

[Marshmellow]

Lizzie, yes, I know they are not craftable by PCs.  I'm not completely ignorant.  I've played a Salarri agent, however, and am quite familiar with the rules on how the item works.  I proposed a solution for making them craftable as well as justified why they don't need to be made of stupidly valuable materials.

It's either that or do as Riev suggested and simply remove all of them as craftable and make them all special order only.

In my eyes, those are the solutions.  Pick one.

[Lizzie]

Lizzie, yes, I know they are not craftable by PCs.  I'm not completely ignorant.  I've played a Salarri agent, however, and am quite familiar with the rules on how the item works.  I proposed a solution for making them craftable as well as justified why they don't need to be made of stupidly valuable materials.

It's either that or do as Riev suggested and simply remove all of them as craftable and make them all special order only.

In my eyes, those are the solutions.  Pick one.

If they're made craftable, then they won't be limited, and they won't necessarily be expensive. Any crafter in the clan with enough coded skill will be able to make them, including the dishonest ones who (in-characterishly) make several and sell them on the sly, cheap, thus reducing their value. Which - would be great, in my opinion, but the staff wants them limited so that won't be an option.

If they're ALL made special order, then this will further encourage the OOC imposition on an un-roleplayable situation, given that half of this stuff is described, by the mdesc, as made from cheap, common materials into rather simple designs. So that would just perpetuate the problem that exists, which is why this thread exists.

Your first idea would be great, but only IF the staff backed down and said, "ya know what, this stuff is just another weapon, fuck it, let them have it."

But they're not doing that.

[Marshmellow]

My suggestion can be applied to all craftable items, to control them through materials and crafting, making crafting more difficult and requiring more stages in the construction.  Did you read the post where I suggested these things?

I was also justifying WHY they can be limited ICly just by this process.

[Synthesis]

pshaw everyone knows you can just go kill those npcs that have them anyway

if you cant kill the npcs or dont know where they are youre not cool enough to wear them

[Saellyn]

pshaw everyone knows you can just go kill those npcs that have them anyway

if you cant kill the npcs or dont know where they are youre not cool enough to wear them

You shouldn't just run around pegging NPCs for their super cool gear, that's kind of twinkish.

[Synthesis]

hey i was just sightseeing and they came after me

[musashi]

hey i was just sightseeing and they came after me

This made me LOL so hard 

[FantasyWriter]

Pretty sure that, at this point, everything that can be said on the subject has been.

[musashi]

If only Ghost were still here ... he could lock the thread.

[Ghost]

those powers have been taken away from me man

i cant anymore

[BleakOne]

mon whira summon thread lock

[SMuz]

pshaw everyone knows you can just go kill those npcs that have them anyway

if you cant kill the npcs or dont know where they are youre not cool enough to wear them

You shouldn't just run around pegging NPCs for their super cool gear, that's kind of twinkish.

It can be perfectly IC to kill someone for their gear. Otherwise every mugger, raider, etc would be a twink.

But if you're using NPCs as a farm to get that rare gear and sell them to PCs, then maybe, yeah.

[Celest]

pshaw everyone knows you can just go kill those npcs that have them anyway

if you cant kill the npcs or dont know where they are youre not cool enough to wear them

You shouldn't just run around pegging NPCs for their super cool gear, that's kind of twinkish.

It can be perfectly IC to kill someone for their gear. Otherwise every mugger, raider, etc would be a twink.

But if you're using NPCs as a farm to get that rare gear and sell them to PCs, then maybe, yeah.

Actually, this does raise a good point. While it can be IC to kill for gear, absolutely, is it twinkish to kill for gear that has little IC value but is nifty/rare on an OOC level? In this case, the strip of leather with sharp things poked through would be something to murder for because it's unique OOC, but from an IC perspective it doesn't make much sense to be rare or valuable, so is that twinkery? Especially if you ignore the guy with gem-studded armbands because they don't have the same coded OOC benefits.

If it is twinky to kill someone because a piece of gear has OOC value, doesn't that mean the current policies about that piece of gear are contributing to twinkery? It seems like anything which adds OOC motivations to IC actions ought to be a major no-no. You can pick that apart and draw all sorts of smaller conclusions on why that's bad, but in the end, this item is essentially a motivator for OOC actions in a game that is supposed to be RPI. For that reason alone, I think it ought to be revamped to be made more in character, though I don't know enough about it to say how the revamp would be the best course of action.

[Marshmellow]

Continuing the "what makes it twinky" tangent, I believe it is twinky to go search out the NPC that has such gear because you, the player, know this when your character has no reason to know.

[EldritchOrigins]

Other than looking cool, nothing good (for the game as a whole) ever came from fighting bracer/gloves  They are inconsistent with the rest of the combat code.  As a result it gives them an advantage verses combatants that don't have them.  Using a shield or parrying doesn't matter when fighting against someone with these items.  In a very close fight, these items will give an edge that can and does push one person over the top to win.  They can even deal killing blows.

They're not just trophy items.  They give clear advantages to combatants, unlike any other 'mundane' items in the game.  They might as well be magick items.

But then what would we wear as OOC status symbols?

</sarcasm>

I agree.

Metal or magick items.

[added]

However something like spiked bracers might be useful for unarmed combatants, aiding with parrying blows and striking unarmed combatants, but it seems highly unrealistic for them to be used offensively against an armed opponent.

[Potaje]

Other than looking cool, nothing good (for the game as a whole) ever came from fighting bracer/gloves  They are inconsistent with the rest of the combat code.  As a result it gives them an advantage verses combatants that don't have them.  Using a shield or parrying doesn't matter when fighting against someone with these items.  In a very close fight, these items will give an edge that can and does push one person over the top to win.  They can even deal killing blows.

They're not just trophy items.  They give clear advantages to combatants, unlike any other 'mundane' items in the game.  They might as well be magick items.

But then what would we wear as OOC status symbols?

</sarcasm>

I agree.

Metal or magick items.

[added]

However something like spiked bracers might be useful for unarmed combatants, aiding with parrying blows and striking unarmed combatants, but it seems highly unrealistic for them to be used offensively against an armed opponent.

I suppose when I see the code for these items scroll by I picture in my head that the opponent or my self has made a misstep and drawn in close. Close quarter combat, in itself will find opponents never simply staying in front of each other, but constantly moving in and around. I don't find it hard to believe that one could draw in close enough to offer a swift, spiked punch to another's face.
As well, in regards to unfair advantage; do away with shields, then move on to various weapons and armor, make it so everyone has to wear leather only, any only one type of leather. Then give them only one type of weapon, all the same weapon. Next remove all class differences and taint, magic, stat bonuses.
This will be a fir bases to thus say, ok there are no advantages. But wait, then you will have to make it that no matter how much training there is that no one ever betters themselves. This will allow an even and equal playing field between combatants.

This is how I read the complaint of unfair advantages, when people complain about them. My point is simple, nothing in life is absolutely fair and equal. So if the suggestion is to get rid of these items then I say, I disagree.

Now I may have misunderstood the quote, but it sounds like some one concerned with fair play in an unfair world.

[Synthesis]

My complaint isn't that they're "unfair" in the sense that they grant an advantage...but that they grant an advantage that seems to bypass what is taken for granted as the base abilities of the two combatants.

If you can't touch someone with a sword, or with a dagger, there is no reason you should be able to pop them in the face with the back of your wrist...but the script doesn't work like that, unless your defense is so OBSCENELY better than your opponent's offense that you could probably disengage and kick them to death without even having the kick skill.

[Majikal]

Seems the people most in favor of shliffing people up are those that don't understand the code involved.

I would like to see people trying to bend the code so that it reflects realism rather than all the idiots I see trying to bend realism to fit the code, though that's with just about any topic involving code. 

While the bracers/gloves are a nice, neat and interesting addition to the combat code there coolness has made them unrealistic both codedly and trade-wise. To think that bob the sergeant for premier merchant house Z just dropped 1/2 a years pay on a 'spiked leather bracer' and folks are amazed that he was able to get it so cheap. Ridiculous.