Sorry if a thread about this had been made before, but I couldn't help but wonder since genders are equal IG socially and codedly, if both genders have the same average height, weight and frame. I suppose the main question is: from an IC point of view would a tall, musclar female be considered manly or a lithe male feminie? On another note that isn't so equal, it's common to see racism against half-breeds, with muls being born only as valuable tools and the policy to spit at the filthy half-elf. HG's on the other seem to be treated well ICLY, with most npc HG's ending up with a well paid job in the milita.. perhaps I'm just oblivious, but if not is there a reason HG's don't receive the same hate as the other groups of breeds?
The reason is that half giants are easily controlled.
Elves are sneaky conniving bastards unworthy of trust on any level, and if you're half elf ... you're half that.
I mis-read the title, and thought this was about half-breeds and sex. *shudder* Thank you for not going there :D
Quote from: NOFUN on March 17, 2011, 12:10:59 PM
Sorry if a thread about this had been made before, but I couldn't help but wonder since genders are equal IG socially and codedly, if both genders have the same average height, weight and frame. I suppose the main question is: from an IC point of view would a tall, musclar female be considered manly or a lithe male feminie?
In Zalanthas there is no (or at least there isn't really supposed to be a) concept of "manly" or "feminine".
Your character may have viewpoints/stereotypes (positive or negative) regarding large, muscular people. Likewise, they may have viewpoints regarding small, skinny people. However, these viewpoints wouldn't be tied to either gender.
QuoteOn another note that isn't so equal, it's common to see racism against half-breeds, with muls being born only as valuable tools and the policy to spit at the filthy half-elf. HG's on the other seem to be treated well ICLY, with most npc HG's ending up with a well paid job in the milita.. perhaps I'm just oblivious, but if not is there a reason HG's don't receive the same hate as the other groups of breeds?
They're not hated because they're generally useful and agreeable. There's plenty of
racism towards half-giants; few people would ever consider them equals as sentient beings. They just don't have much reason to hate them for it.
Calling anyone "manly" or "feminine" would be doing so with gender stereotypes in mind, and I wouldn't do either.
As for muls and HGs being okay? For muls, it IS because they are too valuable and too emotional to treat them any way but with some respect. HGs are easily controlled, too, because they're so dumb and because they attach themselves to someone they admire and can be trusted.
From the human perspective:
- Elves aren't trusted. Elves are dirty. (Think of elves as any oppressed racial minority in the past, like the Jews in Nazi Germany and those of African descent just about constantly in the US.) You wouldn't want to be near one, let alone sleep with one, and the half-breed children are even MORE disgusting than elves themselves because they are PROOF that some human slept with one of those dirty neckers.
With elves, the situation is similar but reversed:
- Humans are stupid and weak (yes, I know that humans have a higher strength score, and so do the elves, but the elves can outrun a human any day of the week), and to make matters worse, they can't be trusted. Wait, humans can't be trusted? Well, technically, no one can be trusted to an elf, but at least another elf is coming from somewhere similar. Humans are nasty, round-eared, weak-legged twats... and someone slept with one to produce this thing? Yuck
If there's no concept of manly or feminine IC, would it be acceptable for a man to wear a skirt or for a female to have facial hair?
Women don't grow facial hair that well, but sure.
And yes, in the documentation it states that both males and females in Tuluk wear kilts.
Haha, new concept for my next character there. Cross dressing male, see how pcs react to my OOCly femine clothing
Quote from: NOFUN on March 17, 2011, 12:52:00 PM
Haha, new concept for my next character there. Cross dressing male, see how pcs react to my OOCly femine clothing
Well, I suppose clothing is one of the remnants/exceptions.
People will likely think your crossdresser is
odd, but well-played Zalanthas aren't really going to demean him for it. Well, unless he's supposed to be a big, buff, gruff warrior type, in which case they'll make fun of him for wearing silk or other fineries regardless of what gender they're tailored for.
Lets not forget that due to the hormones/whatever racing throgh the half elves, that they arent right in the head.
Quote from: Marshmellow on March 17, 2011, 12:46:28 PM
Women don't grow facial hair that well, but sure.
And yes, in the documentation it states that both males and females in Tuluk wear kilts.
There IS such a thing as manly and feminine. You point out one glaring example: women don't grow facial hair that well. Also, women typically have noticeable breasts, an inward curve to their waist, and expanded hip bones for the express purpose of bearing children, which men are not capable of doing. Men have penises. Women do not. Women do not typically lose their hair as they age. Conversely, it is not uncommon for men to do exactly that.
Men and women in zalanthas are EQUAL. They are not the same. Equal does not mean the same. I really wish people would get over the whole "no don't stereotype oh no evil men and women are the same in arm!" crap. They're not the same. Men are noticeable as men, if they are masculine. Women are noticeable as women, because they are feminine. There are androgynous men and women - whose gender is NOT noticeable easily.
There are even clothes that specify that they are feminine, and provide a minor detail in the mdesc explaining how it is, that the observer can know that there's a difference. Bodices are built to fit a woman's form. That is to say, extended breasts, a tapered waist, and a flare to the hips. An androgynous person would have to get those things specially fitted to even stay up, let alone look good. Many of the Kadius gowns are very specifically designed to be worn by women, and there are shoes that are decisively masculine.
There -is- feminine and masculine in the game. It is supported by code, it is approved by staff since they're the ones who approve and implement all these masculine and feminine clothes. They also approve all the mdescs that specify that the PC has a masculine this, or a feminine that..
Code supported, staff supported, staff approved, masculine and feminine.
Men are equal to, but not the same as, women. If they were the same, there would not be two genders. There are two genders, because they are not the same.
EDITED TO CLARIFY: not all women are feminine. Not all men are masculine. But there -are- feminine traits, and there -are- masuline traits. And they are identifiable, in those who possess them.
Quote from: Lizzie on March 17, 2011, 03:05:37 PMEDITED TO CLARIFY: not all women are feminine. Not all men are masculine. But there -are- feminine traits, and there -are- masuline traits. And they are identifiable, in those who possess them.
Yes, but back to the point...
In Zalanthas...
Strength is not a masculine trait.
Weakness is not a feminine trait.
Quote from: NOFUN on March 17, 2011, 12:52:00 PM
Haha, new concept for my next character there. Cross dressing male, see how pcs react to my OOCly femine clothing
It's been done so many times, you probably wouldn't be perceived as an oddity. :)
Quote from: Akaramu on March 17, 2011, 04:02:22 PM
It's been done so many times, you probably wouldn't be perceived as an oddity. :)
Probably not very often, anyway.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on March 17, 2011, 03:19:56 PM
Quote from: Lizzie on March 17, 2011, 03:05:37 PMEDITED TO CLARIFY: not all women are feminine. Not all men are masculine. But there -are- feminine traits, and there -are- masuline traits. And they are identifiable, in those who possess them.
Yes, but back to the point...
In Zalanthas...
Strength is not a masculine trait.
Weakness is not a feminine trait.
Those we can agree on.
But height? Petiteness? Musculature? There comes a point where we have to agree that yes, some of these are masculine, some are these are feminine.
The important part is not to stereotype, and to avoid prejudice against masculine women or feminine men IC. Men and women are not necessarily the same. But they are equal, to the point where there should be nothing strange or inferior about a man with feminine traits, or a woman with masculine traits.
In my mind, masculine and feminine refer to sex hormone effects. They are not tied to strength, power or anything like that. They are tied to looks though. One may look very masculine without any strength. One may look very feminine and be able to tear the ears off a carru.
stupid, controllable killing machines with better fighting power than any other race, whose trust can be easily gained by a new owner--- a problem natural to most races to even a small extent i think. i'd say they're a very appreciated lower-rung.
half-breeds are a disgusting blend of elven and human features and sometimes attitudes--- who always wander off by themselves and don't seek steady jobs.
and i think the trustworthiness of some dwarves gives them a few points. muls are just rare, expensive commodities with unusual temperaments and behaviors, like fancy, somewhat stronger than usual dogs. i think dwarves experience slightly less open racism too, not that its any less racism, its just that they seem to have the opposing single behavior of elves that singles elves out for the worst discrimination--- an ability to be trusted. only sometimes, but when they can be trusted, it is absolute. am i saying this right, or am i mistaking it for something else?
Racism towards half-elves is likely less due to any sort of aversion to their behavior and more to do with what they represent. They represent a corruption of human blood with a race that is already looked down upon. They are an abomination in the eyes of an entire society that basically has a superiority complex akin to the "scientific" racism that caused so many problems throughout the world in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. (U.S. included)
Edited a drunk typo, Ah St. Patrick's Day.
I think maybe in this case, it's better to let the docs explain about half-elven roleplay, AND how non-half-elves perceive half-elves in society:
http://www.armageddon.org/rp/racial/halfelfconflict.html
QuoteAll half-elves have a strong need for acceptance, born of their upbringing. As a bastard offspring of conflicting cultures, it is extremely difficult if not impossible for a half-elf to be accepted anywhere. Humans see a half-elf as a product of the untrustworthy filth that is an elf, and elves see half-elves as weak and tribeless; and half-elves have no culture of their own.
They are also "typically the result of violence" which implies, in most cases, rape. No elf, or human, wants a constant reminder thrust in their faces, that someone of one race raped another. That is what the half-elf represents, regardless of his or her particular background.
Well, I can't see how that quote conflicts in any way with what I said, but I bow to your docs reference.
Probably already been said...but "half"-giants really aren't half-breeds of anything, as far as any commoner knows ICly. If I recall correctly, they were originally the product of some sort of magickal fusion, but that's probably something that nobody except 1337 sorcerers would have any working knowledge of.
As far as any of your commoner PCs are concerned, a "half" giant is a discrete race, and they're only "half" in the sense that they're smaller than giants, which most of your commoner PCs would regard largely as mythological or the product of tall tales (pun!), unless they're some sort of sun-scalded veteran dune-humper who has direct knowledge. (Yes, there were some semi-recent IC events, but unless your character was actually -there-, I'd suggest that even southern city-based characters would largely be skeptical of rumors about the existence of true giants, regardless of the facts we may or may not know OOCly.)
Quote from: NOFUN on March 17, 2011, 12:10:59 PM
HG's on the other seem to be treated well ICLY, with most npc HG's ending up with a well paid job in the milita.. perhaps I'm just oblivious, but if not is there a reason HG's don't receive the same hate as the other groups of breeds?
See if you can muster the balls to insult a HG to his/her face :) It makes complete IC sense not to give as much up front hate to someone who's twice your size, with the brains/maturity of a child.
HG's are also fairly harmless if they're on your side, unlike an elf or half-elf who'll always be trouble if he's anywhere near you. They're actually quite useful to befriend too.
Quote from: racurtne on March 17, 2011, 10:22:29 PM
Well, I can't see how that quote conflicts in any way with what I said, but I bow to your docs reference.
It was in support of what you said, not in conflict with it. In other words - your opinion is backed by the documentation of the game.
The same thing could be said for muls, who are almost always slaves despite being, from a coded point of view the best race. Though a HG seems to make a much netter slave, easily manipulated, not nearly as likely to go berserk and kill it's owner and since they're almost more common would be alot cheaper. Though I suppose owning a tamed mul would be a sign of power
Quote from: NOFUN on March 18, 2011, 08:08:50 AM
The same thing could be said for muls, who are almost always slaves despite being, from a coded point of view the best race. Though a HG seems to make a much netter slave, easily manipulated, not nearly as likely to go berserk and kill it's owner and since they're almost more common would be alot cheaper. Though I suppose owning a tamed mul would be a sign of power
Muls are the race with the most disadvantages, in my opinion. Stop thinking about D&D stats, and start thinking about roleplaying.
I think you've misunderstood the point I was trying to make, which was me wondering why muls are valued more as slaves than HGs when HG's seem to have more desireable slave traits. If anything, I could imagine a king trying to fill his army with muls that lead, being brave as dwarves, stronger than HGs and as smart as humans. :)
Please don't do crossdressing men. They're as 'original' as 'I am one of those rare Allanaki citizens/(even more commonly) Tuluki citizens who like mages because of x reason in my past!' and 'I am an unusually intellectual half-giant because I was trained by nobles'.
-_-
I don't see why not, since there's no sexism it wouldn't be an insult for a male to look like a female. I also very much doubt that any one would care ICLY or OOCLY if a female wore trousers
There's really nothing wrong with a pretty boy in a dress.
QuoteI could imagine a king trying to fill his army with muls that lead, being brave as dwarves, stronger than HGs and as smart as humans. Smiley
Um, usually dwarves are not brave, not exactly. As a matter of fact, I've played dwarves that would run away from most things before the elves would. And Muls are NOT stronger then HGs.
Will fighting this monster/army/what have you help my focus...No..Oh, Will running away...Yes...SEE YA!
Quote from: NOFUN on March 18, 2011, 08:39:00 AM
I think you've misunderstood the point I was trying to make, which was me wondering why muls are valued more as slaves than HGs when HG's seem to have more desireable slave traits. If anything, I could imagine a king trying to fill his army with muls that lead, being brave as dwarves, stronger than HGs and as smart as humans. :)
Muls are difficult and expensive to breed. They are unpredictable and prone to violent emotional outbursts. A slave master that keeps muls must be very careful not to upset them or else they may kill each other, other slaves, or the slave master him/her self.
Half-giants literally breed themselves. They are predictable in their single-mindedness and are prone to mimic the most dynamic person around. A slave master keeping half-giants must be careful not to confuse them or else things may get misplaced, smashed, or painted the wrong color, but usually no one dies.
EDIT: The key reason muls are desirable as slaves is the fact that they are so expensive and difficult to keep. In the same way that a noble wears shoes that would be nearly impossible to walk in while being carried on a litter borne on the backs of slaves.
Quote from: hyzhenhok on March 17, 2011, 07:16:46 PMQuote from: Marauder Moe on March 17, 2011, 03:19:56 PMQuote from: Lizzie on March 17, 2011, 03:05:37 PMEDITED TO CLARIFY: not all women are feminine. Not all men are masculine. But there -are- feminine traits, and there -are- masuline traits. And they are identifiable, in those who possess them.
Yes, but back to the point...
In Zalanthas...
Strength is not a masculine trait.
Weakness is not a feminine trait.
Those we can agree on.
But height? Petiteness? Musculature? There comes a point where we have to agree that yes, some of these are masculine, some are these are feminine.
The important part is not to stereotype, and to avoid prejudice against masculine women or feminine men IC. Men and women are not necessarily the same. But they are equal, to the point where there should be nothing strange or inferior about a man with feminine traits, or a woman with masculine traits.
Actually, in Zalanthas, there is no difference in height, size or musculature that make having one of these traits in abundance or a lack of one of these traits either masculine or feminine. The only things that are different are that men got a peepee and facial hair and women got a hooha and wubblies, along with all the procreational nonsense that comes from those parts. THAT IS IT.
...and Lizzie, staff make mistakes, but the higher-seniority staff have backed up my position more. The fact that these words are used is simply a sign, to me, that we're using language the players understand and can identify with rather than what the characters would. That or that they're using the term clinically, like in the case of a 'feminine (item)', because it is cut so that there's room for the boobies.
I'm pretty sure certain facial traits and structures are inherently masculine or feminine, even on Zalanthas. At least that's how it appears in various NPC descriptions. You can go look around and see for yourself.
I will maintain that those are there because of the submitters' hangups, their opinions on what makes a male or a female, rather than what is the reality for the gameworld.
Quote from: Yam on March 18, 2011, 09:57:04 AM
There's really nothing wrong with a pretty boy in a dress.
Seriously. Ask the Arabs. It's all good.
Quote from: Marshmellow on March 18, 2011, 01:08:39 PM
Quote from: hyzhenhok on March 17, 2011, 07:16:46 PMQuote from: Marauder Moe on March 17, 2011, 03:19:56 PMQuote from: Lizzie on March 17, 2011, 03:05:37 PMEDITED TO CLARIFY: not all women are feminine. Not all men are masculine. But there -are- feminine traits, and there -are- masuline traits. And they are identifiable, in those who possess them.
Yes, but back to the point...
In Zalanthas...
Strength is not a masculine trait.
Weakness is not a feminine trait.
Those we can agree on.
But height? Petiteness? Musculature? There comes a point where we have to agree that yes, some of these are masculine, some are these are feminine.
The important part is not to stereotype, and to avoid prejudice against masculine women or feminine men IC. Men and women are not necessarily the same. But they are equal, to the point where there should be nothing strange or inferior about a man with feminine traits, or a woman with masculine traits.
Actually, in Zalanthas, there is no difference in height, size or musculature that make having one of these traits in abundance or a lack of one of these traits either masculine or feminine. The only things that are different are that men got a peepee and facial hair and women got a hooha and wubblies, along with all the procreational nonsense that comes from those parts. THAT IS IT.
...and Lizzie, staff make mistakes, but the higher-seniority staff have backed up my position more. The fact that these words are used is simply a sign, to me, that we're using language the players understand and can identify with rather than what the characters would. That or that they're using the term clinically, like in the case of a 'feminine (item)', because it is cut so that there's room for the boobies.
So we agree that as long as it's not referred to IC, it's not a problem?
I don't think half-giants shouldn't be thought of as reliable employees at all, when they're put in the free-wheeling situations most PCs find themselves in. HGs might make good labor slaves for doing things that require minimum skill and responsibility, but having a half-giant as your sole hunting buddy or personal bodyguard seems like a potentially disastrous idea.
It's noted in the docs that their loyalties can shift quite easily, which is one reason elves can't stand them. They're also (supposed to be) quite easily duped, and they're probably quite easy to manipulate via psionics. These traits aren't much of a detriment for most NPC and VNPC roles, but I don't think the same can be said for most of the roles PCs pick up.
I wish my pick pockets could convince the half-giant jailers to let them out. :(
Quote from: Bilanthri on March 18, 2011, 12:23:14 PM
EDIT: The key reason muls are desirable as slaves is the fact that they are so expensive and difficult to keep. In the same way that a noble wears shoes that would be nearly impossible to walk in while being carried on a litter borne on the backs of slaves.
Unless they're Byn muls.
Then it's more like, "Fuck yeah! Make fun of his mom and throw him in that spider den-- this is gonna be cool! :D"
There is a jacket that was specifically tailored to allow for breasts. Is that considered a feminine jacket? Hell ... yes. Can men still wear it? Hell ... yes. Will it look weird? Yes. It would. Why? Because it's not 'masculine' for men to wear feminine clothing? No ... it's just stupid. Why would you wear a jacket that's designed for things that ... you dont have?
I dont really know why it was more common for women to wear skirts instead of pants. My only two guesses is that they're easier to hike up for quickie sex, or ... they're less a pain to remove when you need to pee.
A man wouldnt wear the top that's ment to cover the breasts and nothing more. Because a top like that on a woman looks sexy, with much of the skin and curves revealed but the most desirable ones, and on a man it's just a strip of tight cloth wrapped around the body.
Equality and sexuality got nothing to do with each other. Point is ... Women can kill you just as easily as Men could. Take it or leave it.
Muls arent even considered people, really. It's like saying ... why do you insult a half-breed, but dont insult my pet gortok, he's probably not pure bred either. Muls are sterile as well, so they're not really even a race. There arent any Mul children living in a Mul Village. If there is a mul village, all of those muls came from 'somewhere'. Muls are objects. Like 15 packets of flashpowder in your apartment. They're very useful, very expensive, but you wouldnt want to sleep in the same room where they're stored.
I mostly agree with Synthesis assessment on half-giants. Half-giants arent really half half of any other race. They're just not full Giants. Kind of like an Inix is very tall (Taller then many people realize), but it's no Bahamet. So you cant relly spit on them for being a half bred, since 99% population of Zalanthas, never even met the race they're a part of.
I feel compelled to point out that there must be SOME level of accepted difference between the sexes. After all, it's an institutional part of Tuluki government that male templar tend more to war and females more to government and other things.
A bunch of people are saying 'nobody would find cross-dressing weird' and I disagree with this. I think it should be more 'there are far fewer things which are owned solely by one sex or the other.'
Quote from: Erythil on March 19, 2011, 08:12:47 PM
I feel compelled to point out that there must be SOME level of accepted difference between the sexes. After all, it's an institutional part of Tuluki government that male templar tend more to war and females more to government and other things.
Yeah heh ... the whole "Armageddon has no gender type casting" thing smacks itself in the face when you start talking about the Tuluki Templarate. Best to just ignore those. They're the odd man out.
OTHER than the Templarate in Tuluk ... there are no gender discriminations in Armageddon.
To me, that means that anything you would normally consider a cultural gender stereotype is a no no.
The idea that women should be home makers.
That women should be the ones to raise the children.
That men should do the hunting.
That women should be subservient.
That men should be making the important family decisions.
All that's a big no-go area.
But clothing? FFS people ... it would be weird if a man wore a woman's dress for the same reason it would be weird if a gortok wore a woman's dress. Wrong shape.
Quote from: musashi on March 19, 2011, 08:31:25 PM
Quote from: Erythil on March 19, 2011, 08:12:47 PM
I feel compelled to point out that there must be SOME level of accepted difference between the sexes. After all, it's an institutional part of Tuluki government that male templar tend more to war and females more to government and other things.
Yeah heh ... the whole "Armageddon has no gender type casting" thing smacks itself in the face when you start talking about the Tuluki Templarate. Best to just ignore those. They're the odd man out.
OTHER than the Templarate in Tuluk ... there are no gender discriminations in Armageddon.
To me, that means that anything you would normally consider a cultural gender stereotype is a no no.
The idea that women should be home makers.
That women should be the ones to raise the children.
That men should do the hunting.
That women should be subservient.
That men should be making the important family decisions.
All that's a big no-go area.
But clothing? FFS people ... it would be weird if a man wore a woman's dress for the same reason it would be weird if a gortok wore a woman's dress. Wrong shape.
I think this is the most on point in this discussion. When I think of 'equality between men and women' I think these situations do not arise in Zalanthas:
-Discriminating against a female because of her sex, IE: Not hiring a woman hunter, because men are obviously better.
-Assuming a man hunter is better than the woman hunter, based on sex rather than results.
-Firing an employee based on their sex.
-Assuming gender stereotypes, like women are excellent cooks.
I think masculine (something that enhances the male aspect) and feminine (something that enhances the female aspect) are totally legitimate. A jacket cut to fit a pair of tits is feminine. A codpiece is typically masculine, but a chick is totally within her rights to protect 'her jewels' as well.
I think there are good reasons for above inequalities, but that could just be me.
Women do have far prettier clothing to choose from in game though, for real!
Quote from: Fredd on March 17, 2011, 02:24:40 PM
Lets not forget that due to the hormones/whatever racing throgh the half elves, that they arent right in the head.
yeah, what are they supposed to be attracted to, exactly? they're not natural. there's always going to be something gross about their racial preferences, unless they only get attracted to other half-elves, which probably isn't the majority case.
edited for error
Quote from: Cindy42 on March 20, 2011, 06:39:31 AM
Quote from: Fredd on March 17, 2011, 02:24:40 PM
Lets not forget that due to the hormones/whatever racing throgh the half elves, that they arent right in the head.
yeah, what are they supposed to be attracted to, exactly? they're not natural. there's always going to be something gross about their racial preferences, unless they only get attracted to other elves, which probably isn't the majority case.
On a physical level, half elves are likely to seek out a partner needily, only to pull out at the last minute and wank themselves off to finish.
Quote from: hyzhenhok on March 20, 2011, 08:52:07 AM
Quote from: Cindy42 on March 20, 2011, 06:39:31 AM
Quote from: Fredd on March 17, 2011, 02:24:40 PM
Lets not forget that due to the hormones/whatever racing throgh the half elves, that they arent right in the head.
yeah, what are they supposed to be attracted to, exactly? they're not natural. there's always going to be something gross about their racial preferences, unless they only get attracted to other elves, which probably isn't the majority case.
Because these brooding badasses need to prove to everyone that they can do stuff by themselves, amirite?
On a physical level, half elves are likely to seek out a partner needily, only to pull out at the last minute and wank themselves off to finish.
i wonder if there's ever been a dwarven focus involving sex.
ontopic: do half-elves ever have half-elves with other half-elves, i mean, does it happen in player backgrounds, what would be the culturally known conclusion on that? and do half-elves have quarter humans and quarter elven children, ever? is this allowed in player backgrounds? say your player background is that you had a half-elf mother with a human father, and chose the human race. the fact that half-elves aren't sterile poses a few loose ends that i bet i'm not the only person to wonder about.
Half-elves breed just fine, though a quarter elf is still a breed, or a quarter human, and beyond.
Quote from: Cindy42 on March 20, 2011, 09:33:13 AM
i wonder if there's ever been a dwarven focus involving sex.
ontopic: do half-elves ever have half-elves with other half-elves, i mean, does it happen in player backgrounds, what would be the culturally known conclusion on that? and do half-elves have quarter humans and quarter elven children, ever? is this allowed in player backgrounds? say your player background is that you had a half-elf mother with a human father, and chose the human race. the fact that half-elves aren't sterile poses a few loose ends that i bet i'm not the only person to wonder about.
First, assume humans and elves are biologically the same species.
Secondly, the Zalanthan concept of "half-elf" does not describe genotype. It does not mean 50% human, 50% elf. It describes phenotype. You are only a half-elf if others know you're a half-elf; even for 50/50 mixes it's sometimes obvious, sometimes not. The other way for them to know is to have direct knowledge of your ancestry; in that case, go by a one-drop rule.
The thing is, they do not track geneologies of commoners, so if you had a grandparent or great-grandparent that was an elf or half-elf but you look completely human, odds are no one will know (besides your parents;
you might not even know). Mathematically speaking, it's likely every human on Zalanthas has an elven ancestor and vice versa, but they don't know it and there's no evidence.
So if it looks like a breed, it's a breed. If you know it had both a human and elf parent, it's a breed. If one or both of its parents were breeds, it's a breed.
Quote from: Dar on March 19, 2011, 07:04:58 PM
Why would you wear a jacket that's designed for things that ... you dont have?
Smuggling spice.. DUH!
I've wondered whether the feminine/masculine applied to some other aspects too. Like an artist friend of mine said that masculine is squarish, while feminine is rounder.
Or going off that, feminine is soft, masculine is hard. Obviously, a good deal of Zalanthan women are stronger than men, but are they really physically harder? You don't see a lot of female weight lifters (not bodybuilders!) with huge manly muscles. Soft doesn't even mean weaker.. a flail is soft, water is soft, but they can still really hurt. I suppose people on Zalanthas view strong, independent warrior women sort of like modern society views smart women lawyers/doctors - not non-feminine, and actually quite attractive.
Still, there seems to be a bit of a protective stance around women as far as I've played. Maybe I've played a few weak looking female PCs, but there was always some male PC trying to protect them, and I wonder if that's suitable. I've seen female half-giants and dwarves protecting male PCs, but not human females.
Quote from: X-D on March 20, 2011, 09:46:45 AM
Half-elves breed just fine, though a quarter elf is still a breed, or a quarter human, and beyond.
I thought quarter elves were more human like and 3/4 elves were breeds. Not sure where I got that from, though.
edited.
i can give a good stance on female half-giants and dwarves--- if you're choosing your character and you want a physically strong character, the worst option of half-giant, dwarf or human would be the human. therein, less human pcs overall in physically demanding jobs. the better coded option for an intellectual position, like merchant, is human, thus causing the need to be guarded sometimes, though i'm not sure how this would be changed due to gender of the player behind the mask. couldn't say why there aren't many human female warriors guarding dudes, though, beyond the better coded race theory. i'm not sure i actually believe it either. you sure?
Quote from: Cindy42 on March 20, 2011, 04:03:45 PM
edited.
i can give a good stance on female half-giants and dwarves--- if you're choosing your character and you want a physically strong character, the worst option of half-giant, dwarf or human would be the human. therein, less human pcs overall in physically demanding jobs. the better coded option for an intellectual position, like merchant, is human, thus causing the need to be guarded sometimes, though i'm not sure how this would be changed due to gender of the player behind the mask. couldn't say why there aren't many human female warriors guarding dudes, though, beyond the better coded race theory. i'm not sure i actually believe it either. you sure?
There are plenty of female warrior guarding dudes. I can think of several that are House Staples for Nobles and Merchant Family, alike. Some are dwarves, even. And, there is an infamous Half Giant Female guard in a certain GMH.
Well, jobs are jobs. I mean like when a male character and female character meet on the road, the male character will often go "I'll protect you, girl" without being asked for his help. Or maybe its just my female characters :P
Quote from: SMuz on March 20, 2011, 04:17:28 PM
Well, jobs are jobs. I mean like when a male character and female character meet on the road, the male character will often go "I'll protect you, girl" without being asked for his help. Or maybe its just my female characters :P
Right. That shouldn't happen. The 'Damsel In Distress' Trope shouldn't exist in Zalanthas.
You know how women keep making f-me pc's, because they want to be supernaturally pretty when they rp? You know how their flawless white skin doesn't work?
I think the I'll protect you is the same exact thing, but with testosterone instead of big knockers.
Quote from: Barzalene on March 20, 2011, 04:22:05 PM
You know how women keep making f-me pc's, because they want to be supernaturally pretty when they rp? You know how their flawless white skin doesn't work?
I think the I'll protect you is the same exact thing, but with testosterone instead of big knockers.
i like making ugly, flat pcs, or plain-faced, flat pcs. i think i've made one or two moderately to not quite supernatural f-me pcs. while i feel pretty playing them, i don't like having to deal with being hit on, and voila, most of my characters now don't pass the boob-to-butt ratio to be considered female for their species.
i've made one pale character. i always try to make my characters born below the shield wall medium brown to ebony, and my character froms luirs to tuluk, tan to light or medium brown. the docs say the same thing should be done for hair but i never paid attention to that.
i would love to make a completely hideous female character one day that's just vomit-inducing to look at, but i haven't been inspired by the right image yet.
Quote from: Barzalene on March 20, 2011, 04:22:05 PM
You know how women keep making f-me pc's, because they want to be supernaturally pretty when they rp? You know how their flawless white skin doesn't work?
I think the I'll protect you is the same exact thing, but with testosterone instead of big knockers.
Agreed.
Quote from: Cindy42 on March 20, 2011, 04:29:10 PM
Quote from: Barzalene on March 20, 2011, 04:22:05 PM
You know how women keep making f-me pc's, because they want to be supernaturally pretty when they rp? You know how their flawless white skin doesn't work?
I think the I'll protect you is the same exact thing, but with testosterone instead of big knockers.
i like making ugly, flat pcs, or plain-faced, flat pcs. i think i've made one or two moderately to not quite supernatural f-me pcs. while i feel pretty playing them, i don't like having to deal with being hit on, and voila, most of my characters now don't pass the boob-to-butt ratio to be considered female for their species.
i've made one pale character. i always try to make my characters born below the shield wall medium brown to ebony, and my character froms luirs to tuluk, tan to light or medium brown. the docs say the same thing should be done for hair but i never paid attention to that.
i would love to make a completely hideous female character one day that's just vomit-inducing to look at, but i haven't been inspired by the right image yet.
The funny thing is even the hideous female PC's will get hit on.
Quote from: Reiloth on March 20, 2011, 06:22:50 PM
Quote from: Cindy42 on March 20, 2011, 04:29:10 PM
Quote from: Barzalene on March 20, 2011, 04:22:05 PM
You know how women keep making f-me pc's, because they want to be supernaturally pretty when they rp? You know how their flawless white skin doesn't work?
I think the I'll protect you is the same exact thing, but with testosterone instead of big knockers.
i like making ugly, flat pcs, or plain-faced, flat pcs. i think i've made one or two moderately to not quite supernatural f-me pcs. while i feel pretty playing them, i don't like having to deal with being hit on, and voila, most of my characters now don't pass the boob-to-butt ratio to be considered female for their species.
i've made one pale character. i always try to make my characters born below the shield wall medium brown to ebony, and my character froms luirs to tuluk, tan to light or medium brown. the docs say the same thing should be done for hair but i never paid attention to that.
i would love to make a completely hideous female character one day that's just vomit-inducing to look at, but i haven't been inspired by the right image yet.
The funny thing is even the hideous female PC's will get hit on.
being a half=elf significantly lowers your chances ;D
Quote from: Cindy42 on March 20, 2011, 07:49:23 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on March 20, 2011, 06:22:50 PM
Quote from: Cindy42 on March 20, 2011, 04:29:10 PM
Quote from: Barzalene on March 20, 2011, 04:22:05 PM
You know how women keep making f-me pc's, because they want to be supernaturally pretty when they rp? You know how their flawless white skin doesn't work?
I think the I'll protect you is the same exact thing, but with testosterone instead of big knockers.
i like making ugly, flat pcs, or plain-faced, flat pcs. i think i've made one or two moderately to not quite supernatural f-me pcs. while i feel pretty playing them, i don't like having to deal with being hit on, and voila, most of my characters now don't pass the boob-to-butt ratio to be considered female for their species.
i've made one pale character. i always try to make my characters born below the shield wall medium brown to ebony, and my character froms luirs to tuluk, tan to light or medium brown. the docs say the same thing should be done for hair but i never paid attention to that.
i would love to make a completely hideous female character one day that's just vomit-inducing to look at, but i haven't been inspired by the right image yet.
The funny thing is even the hideous female PC's will get hit on.
being a half=elf significantly lowers your chances ;D
... Probably not.
Quote from: Reiloth on March 20, 2011, 06:22:50 PM
The funny thing is even the hideous female PC's will get hit on.
I made hideous female PC once, but I think she was too intimidating for most people to hit on. I had her a month and she was only hit on once, so that was pretty impressive.
Quote from: Reiloth on March 20, 2011, 06:22:50 PM
Quote from: Cindy42 on March 20, 2011, 04:29:10 PM
Quote from: Barzalene on March 20, 2011, 04:22:05 PM
You know how women keep making f-me pc's, because they want to be supernaturally pretty when they rp? You know how their flawless white skin doesn't work?
I think the I'll protect you is the same exact thing, but with testosterone instead of big knockers.
i like making ugly, flat pcs, or plain-faced, flat pcs. i think i've made one or two moderately to not quite supernatural f-me pcs. while i feel pretty playing them, i don't like having to deal with being hit on, and voila, most of my characters now don't pass the boob-to-butt ratio to be considered female for their species.
i've made one pale character. i always try to make my characters born below the shield wall medium brown to ebony, and my character froms luirs to tuluk, tan to light or medium brown. the docs say the same thing should be done for hair but i never paid attention to that.
i would love to make a completely hideous female character one day that's just vomit-inducing to look at, but i haven't been inspired by the right image yet.
The funny thing is even the hideous female PC's will get hit on.
Yeah, evidently rolling up gritty bitches is like putting up a big sign that says "ELIGIBLE WOMAN" instead of the opposite, intended result.
I'm an equal-opportunity fader. Unless you're an elf--then you can go fuck yourself.
If your sdesc is "the woman" and your mdesc is "This person is female.", congratulations, you're the hottest gal in the Known. Please collect your mudsex partners from the Gaj on your way out.
Quote from: Case on March 20, 2011, 09:21:48 PM
If your sdesc is "the woman" and your mdesc is "This person is female.", congratulations, you're the hottest gal in the Known. Please collect your mudsex partners from the Gaj on your way out.
If your male is funny it works the same way. (There's a lot of failures out there, though.)
Quote from: a strange shadow on March 20, 2011, 09:04:11 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on March 20, 2011, 06:22:50 PM
Quote from: Cindy42 on March 20, 2011, 04:29:10 PM
Quote from: Barzalene on March 20, 2011, 04:22:05 PM
You know how women keep making f-me pc's, because they want to be supernaturally pretty when they rp? You know how their flawless white skin doesn't work?
I think the I'll protect you is the same exact thing, but with testosterone instead of big knockers.
i like making ugly, flat pcs, or plain-faced, flat pcs. i think i've made one or two moderately to not quite supernatural f-me pcs. while i feel pretty playing them, i don't like having to deal with being hit on, and voila, most of my characters now don't pass the boob-to-butt ratio to be considered female for their species.
i've made one pale character. i always try to make my characters born below the shield wall medium brown to ebony, and my character froms luirs to tuluk, tan to light or medium brown. the docs say the same thing should be done for hair but i never paid attention to that.
i would love to make a completely hideous female character one day that's just vomit-inducing to look at, but i haven't been inspired by the right image yet.
The funny thing is even the hideous female PC's will get hit on.
Yeah, evidently rolling up gritty bitches is like putting up a big sign that says "ELIGIBLE WOMAN" instead of the opposite, intended result.
That's cuz gritty bitches can bring home the scrab meat.
being a half=elf significantly lowers your chances ;D
[/quote]
I know this to be factually incorrect. Of all my PC's, my humans, even the relatively good looking and normal ones, got only a small amount of attention and "love" from the female populace. By contrast, my half-elves got heaps of attention from women. Even ones who had ugly scars or some other defecit still got laid, and not just with elves or breeds, but humans too. Even one human who openly ranted breed hate my half-elf was bonking the brains out of. I look at it as being breeds are the forbidden fruit, or their sad stories charm the ladies hearts into love. Breeds rule.
Quote from: Reiloth on March 20, 2011, 04:18:58 PM
Quote from: SMuz on March 20, 2011, 04:17:28 PM
Well, jobs are jobs. I mean like when a male character and female character meet on the road, the male character will often go "I'll protect you, girl" without being asked for his help. Or maybe its just my female characters :P
Right. That shouldn't happen. The 'Damsel In Distress' Trope shouldn't exist in Zalanthas.
To be fair people, male and female alike, get into plenty of distress. ;)
Quote from: Scarecrow on April 06, 2011, 06:42:25 AM
being a half=elf significantly lowers your chances ;D
I know this to be factually incorrect. Of all my PC's, my humans, even the relatively good looking and normal ones, got only a small amount of attention and "love" from the female populace. By contrast, my half-elves got heaps of attention from women. Even ones who had ugly scars or some other defecit still got laid, and not just with elves or breeds, but humans too. Even one human who openly ranted breed hate my half-elf was bonking the brains out of. I look at it as being breeds are the forbidden fruit, or their sad stories charm the ladies hearts into love. Breeds rule.
[/quote]
it must be my personalities. i generally do the same personalities, and enjoy freaking others out and giving them goosebumps as a certain race ;D
Quote from: Scarecrow on April 06, 2011, 06:42:25 AM
being a half=elf significantly lowers your chances ;D
I know this to be factually incorrect. Of all my PC's, my humans, even the relatively good looking and normal ones, got only a small amount of attention and "love" from the female populace. By contrast, my half-elves got heaps of attention from women. Even ones who had ugly scars or some other defecit still got laid, and not just with elves or breeds, but humans too. Even one human who openly ranted breed hate my half-elf was bonking the brains out of. I look at it as being breeds are the forbidden fruit, or their sad stories charm the ladies hearts into love. Breeds rule.
[/quote]
I loved an elf of yours, if you played who it was I think you played! I don't know any of your breeds, though. I think my PC woulda touched the sharp ears for dat azzz. Totally one of three elves she would've bonked. For real.
No one wants breeds. Fuck. Go full blood naughty or not at all!
Quote from: boog on April 12, 2011, 04:06:07 PM
Quote from: Scarecrow on April 06, 2011, 06:42:25 AM
being a half=elf significantly lowers your chances ;D
I know this to be factually incorrect. Of all my PC's, my humans, even the relatively good looking and normal ones, got only a small amount of attention and "love" from the female populace. By contrast, my half-elves got heaps of attention from women. Even ones who had ugly scars or some other defecit still got laid, and not just with elves or breeds, but humans too. Even one human who openly ranted breed hate my half-elf was bonking the brains out of. I look at it as being breeds are the forbidden fruit, or their sad stories charm the ladies hearts into love. Breeds rule.
I loved an elf of yours, if you played who it was I think you played! I don't know any of your breeds, though. I think my PC woulda touched the sharp ears for dat azzz. Totally one of three elves she would've bonked. For real.
No one wants breeds. Fuck. Go full blood naughty or not at all!
[/quote]
that creeps me out a little that you've said that because i kind of suspected it was you.
a half breed is half himan to an elf and half elf to a human
syucks
Quote from: Ghost on April 20, 2011, 12:48:10 AM
a half breed is half himan to an elf and half elf to a human
syucks
You drunk again??
Quote from: eska on April 20, 2011, 05:02:32 PM
You drunk again??
What do you mean again? I don't think he's been sober in years.
Since Ghost resurrected this thread, and it's been on my mind, I'd just like to say gender equality is not well represented on this game, in my experience. Being mindful of this has actually brought to my attention what a male-oriented world we, in reality, still live in.
Also, having seen plenty of attractive, well-played females IG that don't have a bunch of males drooling over them, I'm going to have to say, your 'ugmo ladies' may just be receptive (or proactive) to all the lame horndoggin'. I think it has more to do with OOC interpretations of real-life gender roles.
Anybody ever seen a female PC be the dominant, aggressive sexual Alpha, and succeed?
I could be totally wrong (or sheltered)!
Quote from: Kismetic on April 21, 2011, 09:20:41 AM
Since Ghost resurrected this thread, and it's been on my mind, I'd just like to say gender equality is not well represented on this game, in my experience. Being mindful of this has actually brought to my attention what a male-oriented world we, in reality, still live in.
Also, having seen plenty of attractive, well-played females IG that don't have a bunch of males drooling over them, I'm going to have to say, your 'ugmo ladies' may just be receptive (or proactive) to all the lame horndoggin'. I think it has more to do with OOC interpretations of real-life gender roles.
Anybody ever seen a female PC be the dominant, aggressive sexual Alpha, and succeed?
I could be totally wrong (or sheltered)!
I think you're right, it's definitely not perfect. I also think we do a pretty crack job at trying to keep equality despite most people's tendency to classify people based on sex or gender.
I've never played a crazy bite your ear off woman, but, I know I've run into a couple alpha women in the game. ;)
Quote from: Kismetic on April 21, 2011, 09:20:41 AM
Anybody ever seen a female PC be the dominant, aggressive sexual Alpha, and succeed?
I could be totally wrong (or sheltered)!
Yeah I've seen this a lot. Most memorable badass leaders I've had have been females.
Sergeant Sha, Midge, Felysia, Eunoli, Laila, Broken Wing, too many gypsies. You must have been a sheltered person not to have seen at least one dominant, aggressive matriarch.
Bela the Butcher, Ceylara Borsail, Fathi (the character), Pearl Terash, countless Atrium Hostesses and female nobles that I'm forgetting. These are just some that stick out in my mind.
My god, I just got taken on a whirlwind tour of memory lane.
Quote from: a strange shadow on April 21, 2011, 02:10:07 PM
My god, I just got taken on a whirlwind tour of memory lane.
You better start believing in ghost stories a strange shadow. You're in one!
I am not talking about dominant female roles, here. I'm talking about sexually dominant female roles. The woman who's like, "Muff. Eat it. NOW." To be fair, I've interacted with three of the female characters you listed, and none of them gave me the impression of sexual dominance (but again, I could be sheltered, ahahahaha).
Quote from: Kismetic on April 21, 2011, 03:01:27 PM
I am not talking about dominant female roles, here. I'm talking about sexually dominant female roles. The woman who's like, "Muff. Eat it. NOW." To be fair, I've interacted with three of the female characters you listed, and none of them gave me the impression of sexual dominance (but again, I could be sheltered, ahahahaha).
Maybe you weren't hot enough.
Quote from: Yam on April 21, 2011, 03:06:42 PM
Quote from: Kismetic on April 21, 2011, 03:01:27 PM
I am not talking about dominant female roles, here. I'm talking about sexually dominant female roles. The woman who's like, "Muff. Eat it. NOW." To be fair, I've interacted with three of the female characters you listed, and none of them gave me the impression of sexual dominance (but again, I could be sheltered, ahahahaha).
Maybe you weren't hot enough.
That -is- true. Still didn't see it going on. Having known a couple of those players, too, I'm thinking your assertions may be inaccurate in the lurvins department. I've only played two "hot" characters, to memory. The rest were fairly average and/or marred, some in brutal ways. So ... there is always that!
Now that I think of it, though, I do know -one- player that fits this criteria, and though one of her PCs was mentioned, and doesn't fit the bill, I know other PCs she played that -were- this way. But, my point is ... the ratio is way off!
be the change~
But this is about half-elves.
Don't fuck half-elves. They aren't people. Fuck a kank instead.
You're right, damn. I read this thread from the beginning, and still managed to majorly derail from the original equality question.
Haha, whoops.
Quote from: Is Friday on March 18, 2011, 08:13:47 AM
Quote from: NOFUN on March 18, 2011, 08:08:50 AM
The same thing could be said for muls, who are almost always slaves despite being, from a coded point of view the best race. Though a HG seems to make a much netter slave, easily manipulated, not nearly as likely to go berserk and kill it's owner and since they're almost more common would be alot cheaper. Though I suppose owning a tamed mul would be a sign of power
Muls are the race with the most disadvantages, in my opinion. Stop thinking about D&D stats, and start thinking about roleplaying.
Not by a long shot.
A half-elf? People don't fear feces.
People fear Muls and in turn a sort of respect is present with most of them, because of the raw power they hold. The same courtesy is often extended to half-giants in one way or another. I'm not saying this because of "stats" - though like it or not, the people controlling our PCs are just that...people. As much as you get into a character, there is still another brain controlling their thoughts, actions, and emotions.
It's been my experience that even players with max karma will let their OOC knowledge of races and guilds effect how they react in some situations. It's just a part of the game. Like it or not.
Eh, yeah, muls are possibly much less socially disadvantaged than many other races. No smart person would ever give crap to a mul, unless that person was a really skilled fighter. You can pick on half-giants, and they'll rarely ever bash your head in. But look at a mul wrong and he'll rip your teeth out.
They are of course, very disadvantaged in being hard to roleplay, sort of like a half-elf on meds. It's hard to play with the responsibility of being so damn emo, yet take on the OOC responsibility of letting players live.
The Butcher scares me out of my mind.
Quote from: Kismetic on April 21, 2011, 09:20:41 AM
Since Ghost resurrected this thread, and it's been on my mind, I'd just like to say gender equality is not well represented on this game, in my experience. Being mindful of this has actually brought to my attention what a male-oriented world we, in reality, still live in.
Also, having seen plenty of attractive, well-played females IG that don't have a bunch of males drooling over them, I'm going to have to say, your 'ugmo ladies' may just be receptive (or proactive) to all the lame horndoggin'. I think it has more to do with OOC interpretations of real-life gender roles.
Anybody ever seen a female PC be the dominant, aggressive sexual Alpha, and succeed?
I could be totally wrong (or sheltered)!
I have. And it was very amazing.
Quote from: SMuz on April 22, 2011, 03:06:05 PM
Eh, yeah, muls are possibly much less socially disadvantaged than many other races. No smart person would ever give crap to a mul, unless that person was a really skilled fighter. You can pick on half-giants, and they'll rarely ever bash your head in. But look at a mul wrong and he'll rip your teeth out.
They are of course, very disadvantaged in being hard to roleplay, sort of like a half-elf on meds. It's hard to play with the responsibility of being so damn emo, yet take on the OOC responsibility of letting players live.
Except that muls are viewed as property, not people. Even half-elves have the distinction of being treated like (filthy) second-class citizens.
Yes, muls are prone to violent outbursts, but this does not afford them a modicum of respect, rather it reinforces that this is a tool that is dangerous, like a chainsaw with no chain brake, hand guard, or chain catcher.
On that note, I don't understand why a mul would use their potential violent outbursts as a threat. When a hairless battering ram says something along the lines of, "I think yer cheating me. What would you think if I just raged in here?", it really stretches my belief. Can you really turn it on and off like a toggle? ::)
Well, unless it was..
"Well I..."
*Mul suddenly smashes your head in.*
"Just checking."
Quote from: musashi on March 19, 2011, 08:31:25 PM
Quote from: Erythil on March 19, 2011, 08:12:47 PM
I feel compelled to point out that there must be SOME level of accepted difference between the sexes. After all, it's an institutional part of Tuluki government that male templar tend more to war and females more to government and other things.
Yeah heh ... the whole "Armageddon has no gender type casting" thing smacks itself in the face when you start talking about the Tuluki Templarate. Best to just ignore those. They're the odd man out.
OTHER than the Templarate in Tuluk ... there are no gender discriminations in Armageddon.
To me, that means that anything you would normally consider a cultural gender stereotype is a no no.
The idea that women should be home makers.
That women should be the ones to raise the children.
That men should do the hunting.
That women should be subservient.
That men should be making the important family decisions.
It's kind of a natural assumption that women should raise the children, to a certain point. We have the tits. They make the food.
Other than that, I agree.
As for the men who protect the damsels...well, even I, as a submissive woman in real life, get protective of small, pretty things/people. If I am bigger and better equipped/prepared/whatever to fight things off, I will stand up for the smaller person...especially if they're pretty and charming.
I'm married to a genderfluid gal who I swear, if she was smaller, I would have a sereve Paladin complex, despite the fact that she's the dominant partner.
...That's not to say that other people aren't acting on the "women are weak!" motive. Just, if it were me, I only bother protecting the small, pretty, entertaining non-combatants. :D
If you're bigger than me, learn to run or fight.
The role of the female is probably different depending on the culture of the respective groups in Zalanthas, but this is an IG distinction, not an OOC one. As a whole, Armageddon mud is gender neutral (there is no inherent different between men and women (such as differences in code or limitations in coded guild/subguild selection if you are a male or female character)).
I want to point out, that should the need arise. I have been gene-spliced to produce tremendous quantities of lactic fluids.
^ if Sontarans [typo] from Doctor Who were a playable race.
Also zombie thread *nom*
re: gender derail;
Say it with me now:
gender roles != gender inequality
Oh man, you guys got owned again. Stupid breeds. ;D
Quote from: Delirium on June 24, 2011, 12:47:39 AM
re: gender derail;
Say it with me now:
gender roles != gender inequality
^ This.
Quote from: Delirium on June 24, 2011, 12:47:39 AM
re: gender derail;
Say it with me now:
gender roles != gender inequality
err, yes, gender roles == gender inequality if any role is available to some but not all members of the set of genders.
This is what inequality means.
Quote from: Case on June 24, 2011, 06:27:47 AM
Quote from: Delirium on June 24, 2011, 12:47:39 AM
re: gender derail;
Say it with me now:
gender roles != gender inequality
err, yes, gender roles == gender inequality if any role is available to some but not all members of the set of genders.
This is what inequality means.
Men can't spit out babies-- but doesn't make them any less equal.
Amitire?
Depends, are you looking for someone to bear your child?
Quote from: spicemustflow on June 24, 2011, 08:03:18 AM
Depends, are you looking for someone to bear your child?
Meh.... I tend to think of "sexual equality" as more of a social thing, as opposed to a service thing.
This is the half-breed thread that died because it was already massively derailed (I think by me, heh). Go rez a gender thread!
Actually, let's not. I think this horse has been soundly beaten. ;)
I don't even have the heart to argue the point I made. It's been argued so many times before.
Gah, I'm sorry for rezzing something from March =\ I was just searching for stuff on breeds and found this and didn't even look at when it was posted before adding my two cents >_>
My bad.
... Think of breeds as people who want love but screw it up.
Quote from: PurpleParrot on June 24, 2011, 04:00:58 PM
Gah, I'm sorry for rezzing something from March =\ I was just searching for stuff on breeds and found this and didn't even look at when it was posted before adding my two cents >_>
My bad.
You're not doing anything bad, it's just a common derail. :)
breasts
(in before Ghost)
Quote from: Delirium on June 24, 2011, 12:47:39 AM
re: gender derail;
Say it with me now:
gender roles != gender inequality
Oh, God. Not this again.
Feeding your baby != gender roles. It's basic human decency and responsibility.
Telling a woman that she's not allowed to hunt, because only men can hunt = gender roles. That's inequality.
QuoteMen can't spit out babies-- but doesn't make them any less equal.
Amitire?
I want to make this very clear, because it's become
abundantly obvious to me that most of the people on the GDB do not even know what a "gender role" is.
Having breasts, a penis, or a vagina is not a gender role. It's a sex. A gender role is the cultural, and/or mental role of someone. Saying "Men can't have babies, so gender roles are okay!" is absolute idiocy, because the two ideas are not linked. A gender role is the behavioral expectations/norms of a sex in a culture. Saying "A woman should feed her child" is not a gender role. Saying "a man can not have children" is not a gender role. Saying "A woman should not hunt because she does not have a penis" is a gender role, and it is sexist, because you don't need a penis to hunt. Contrary to what Lizzie, and other people on the GDB seem to think, you don't hunt by fucking things to death, and a vagina does not product crafted goods. Neither penis, vagina, or breasts are required to do any of the jobs of traditional gender roles and so saying that only men or women can do them is sexist, regardless of how much you whine about how it's not sexist because it just isn't.
Honestly, I'm starting to wonder how many of the women who say it's okay to take away women's right to work and hold property because it's a "gender role" are actually women. I can't imagine any woman saying that she's okay with being submissive to someone else, against her will, just because she was born a woman. It blows my mind how people can honestly think it's okay to be discriminated against based on sex, just because it's traditional to do that.
Short version: No. Discrimination is sexist, even if you really really really really want it to be okay. Sorry. Stop telling women we can't do the same things as men because we lack testicles, when testicles are utterly irrelevant to the topic.
Can't we all focus on that fact that breed women aren't people, but breed men are also not people. Why you might ask. Well lets ponder that shall we?
Breeds, male and female are kinda dirty to most of my pcs, unless their some perverse wierdo. If so, bring 'em on!
Quote from: Recharge on June 26, 2011, 12:18:11 AM
Breeds, male and female are kinda dirty to most of my pcs, unless their some perverse wierdo. If so, bring 'em on!
Some people will be turned on -because- they are kinda dirty.
Quote from: Jeshin on June 25, 2011, 08:10:50 PM
Can't we all focus on that fact that breed women aren't people, but breed men are also not people. Why you might ask. Well lets ponder that shall we?
Because they're breeds, not people! :D
Quote from: Celest on June 25, 2011, 07:57:37 PM
Short version: No. Discrimination is sexist, even if you really really really really want it to be okay. Sorry. Stop telling women we can't do the same things as men because we lack testicles, when testicles are utterly irrelevant to the topic.
There are those nine months or when a woman is not allowed or unwilling to hunt or guard or fight or do heavy labor. So, I don't buy that there's no discrimination based on sex in the game world. Tribes would protect their mothers to be, knocked up mercenaries would be given the sack immediately etc, etc. I understand why we have the "no discrimination" policy on the OOC level and I totally support it but sometimes it turns into: Zalanthans can't tell a male from a female.
Quote from: spicemustflow on June 26, 2011, 05:22:44 AM
Quote from: Celest on June 25, 2011, 07:57:37 PM
Short version: No. Discrimination is sexist, even if you really really really really want it to be okay. Sorry. Stop telling women we can't do the same things as men because we lack testicles, when testicles are utterly irrelevant to the topic.
There are those nine months or when a woman is not allowed or unwilling to hunt or guard or fight or do heavy labor. So, I don't buy that there's no discrimination based on sex in the game world. Tribes would protect their mothers to be, knocked up mercenaries would be given the sack immediately etc, etc. I understand why we have the "no discrimination" policy on the OOC level and I totally support it but sometimes it turns into: Zalanthans can't tell a male from a female.
That's only if she gets pregnant, which is her choice. Don't act like for nine months out of a year, every woman has mandatory pregnancy. There's so much birth control in Zalanthas that if someone gets pregnant, and keeps it, it's their choice. Mul Mix works as an abortion, a morning-after pill, and as birth control all in one, and it is LITERALLY dirt cheap. If a woman can't do her job, because of her choice, punish her as an individual who made a choice that makes her unable to do her duty.
Secondly, no, I'm sorry, but there's a huge difference between saying all women aren't allowed to do X at all because they're women, and saying that a woman who can't do X because she's pregnant can't do X. One is based on the premise of a gender role, and one is based on the premise of individual capability and choice. There's a huge difference there. The inability to tell the two apart only further demonstrates how little many of the people here know about sexual equality, and why it's so poorly RPed in game.
Finally, and this is the most important part:
this is a game. It is, before all else, meant to be fun. Trying to insist that female characters deserve a lesser role than men when it comes to what you feel are "man" roles in spite of the loss of enjoyment that it would certainly cause characters in game, simply because it's your OOC perspectives carrying over into the game world, should not be tolerated at all. Lets not pretend it's something else, because that's exactly what this is, OOC perspectives carrying into the game world.
Aside from one single instance with the Tuluki Templarate, there is no evidence to suggest that women and men have gender roles in the game. In fact, it's been stated that they are for all intents and purposes, equal. It is also abundantly clear to anyone who notices NPCs at all that there are male whores and female guards in every part of the world. Women can be nobles, and women can rent apartments, just like men. Women can be Templars, and women can serve in the governments of the City States. Even amongst the Arabet, which as far as I'm aware is the tribe that comes the
closest to real life gender roles, men are just as loose with their affections as women, and women can still be hunters.
Also, for those of you who think that gender is some magical force of the universe rather than simply being evolutionary specialization that has no place in modern society or in a video game world, please read this (http://www.npr.org/blogs/13.7/2011/06/24/137398402/gender-is-dead-long-live-gender)
Quote from: Celest on June 26, 2011, 05:44:14 AM
Quote from: spicemustflow on June 26, 2011, 05:22:44 AM
Quote from: Celest on June 25, 2011, 07:57:37 PM
Short version: No. Discrimination is sexist, even if you really really really really want it to be okay. Sorry. Stop telling women we can't do the same things as men because we lack testicles, when testicles are utterly irrelevant to the topic.
There are those nine months or when a woman is not allowed or unwilling to hunt or guard or fight or do heavy labor. So, I don't buy that there's no discrimination based on sex in the game world. Tribes would protect their mothers to be, knocked up mercenaries would be given the sack immediately etc, etc. I understand why we have the "no discrimination" policy on the OOC level and I totally support it but sometimes it turns into: Zalanthans can't tell a male from a female.
That's only if she gets pregnant, which is her choice. Don't act like for nine months out of a year, every woman has mandatory pregnancy. There's so much birth control in Zalanthas that if someone gets pregnant, and keeps it, it's their choice. Mul Mix works as an abortion, a morning-after pill, and as birth control all in one, and it is LITERALLY dirt cheap. If a woman can't do her job, because of her choice, punish her as an individual who made a choice that makes her unable to do her duty.
The effects of mul mix are intentionally vague so the players don't have to bother with pregnancy. If we're not talking OOC I wold say that it's very unreliable and fails more than it works.
Quote
Secondly, no, I'm sorry, but there's a huge difference between saying all women aren't allowed to do X at all because they're women, and saying that a woman who can't do X because she's pregnant can't do X. One is based on the premise of a gender role, and one is based on the premise of individual capability and choice. There's a huge difference there. The inability to tell the two apart only further demonstrates how little many of the people here know about sexual equality, and why it's so poorly RPed in game.
If you take into account the high mortality rates and the fact that many, say, tribal groups are often near the brink of extinction it would make sense that one of the primary roles of women is to, well, get pregnant as often as possible. It's not to say that she can't do anything else, nor that an average woman is worse fighter than an average man but an average man can't contribute to the group in that particular way. I don't think women (in game women!) would view that as demeaning, if anything they would take pride in that. Also, since both sexes have the same physical potential, the abuse of women wouldn't be as universal thing as it is in many primitive societies on Earth.
Quote
Finally, and this is the most important part: this is a game. It is, before all else, meant to be fun. Trying to insist that female characters deserve a lesser role than men when it comes to what you feel are "man" roles in spite of the loss of enjoyment that it would certainly cause characters in game, simply because it's your OOC perspectives carrying over into the game world, should not be tolerated at all.
No argument from me there, fun and respect to other players is why we have all these policies. I'm not going to advocate that we should force female characters to take "traditional" roles, you misunderstood me. I'm trying to somehow tie the OOC policy and my view of the game world together.
Quote from: spicemustflow on June 26, 2011, 05:22:44 AM
Quote from: Celest on June 25, 2011, 07:57:37 PM
Short version: No. Discrimination is sexist, even if you really really really really want it to be okay. Sorry. Stop telling women we can't do the same things as men because we lack testicles, when testicles are utterly irrelevant to the topic.
There are those nine months or when a woman is not allowed or unwilling to hunt or guard or fight or do heavy labor. So, I don't buy that there's no discrimination based on sex in the game world. Tribes would protect their mothers to be, knocked up mercenaries would be given the sack immediately etc, etc. I understand why we have the "no discrimination" policy on the OOC level and I totally support it but sometimes it turns into: Zalanthans can't tell a male from a female.
The period where a woman is completley incapable to do those things is significantly shorter than nine months and gets even longer when you don't want to protect the baby at all costs. Will you go on a spider hunt eight months pregnant? Probably not, but you might still go hunt tregil, grab salt or order your underlings around. Pregnant women in modern times don't do a lot of things because they want to protect the baby but I can see that change very quickly when you don't really want the baby or just need the money. Or just don't consider it a huge risk because you're a Zalanthan.
Quote from: Celest on June 26, 2011, 05:44:14 AM
Quote from: spicemustflow on June 26, 2011, 05:22:44 AM
Quote from: Celest on June 25, 2011, 07:57:37 PM
Short version: No. Discrimination is sexist, even if you really really really really want it to be okay. Sorry. Stop telling women we can't do the same things as men because we lack testicles, when testicles are utterly irrelevant to the topic.
There are those nine months or when a woman is not allowed or unwilling to hunt or guard or fight or do heavy labor. So, I don't buy that there's no discrimination based on sex in the game world. Tribes would protect their mothers to be, knocked up mercenaries would be given the sack immediately etc, etc. I understand why we have the "no discrimination" policy on the OOC level and I totally support it but sometimes it turns into: Zalanthans can't tell a male from a female.
That's only if she gets pregnant, which is her choice. Don't act like for nine months out of a year, every woman has mandatory pregnancy. There's so much birth control in Zalanthas that if someone gets pregnant, and keeps it, it's their choice. Mul Mix works as an abortion, a morning-after pill, and as birth control all in one, and it is LITERALLY dirt cheap. If a woman can't do her job, because of her choice, punish her as an individual who made a choice that makes her unable to do her duty.
Secondly, no, I'm sorry, but there's a huge difference between saying all women aren't allowed to do X at all because they're women, and saying that a woman who can't do X because she's pregnant can't do X. One is based on the premise of a gender role, and one is based on the premise of individual capability and choice. There's a huge difference there. The inability to tell the two apart only further demonstrates how little many of the people here know about sexual equality, and why it's so poorly RPed in game.
Finally, and this is the most important part: this is a game. It is, before all else, meant to be fun. Trying to insist that female characters deserve a lesser role than men when it comes to what you feel are "man" roles in spite of the loss of enjoyment that it would certainly cause characters in game, simply because it's your OOC perspectives carrying over into the game world, should not be tolerated at all.
Spicemustflow is right; it does give rise to inherent discrimination. If we were going by individual capability, hiring only men to avoid having to deal with a pregnant employee is a decision somebody IG could make. The expectation that pregnancy is a choice, and mul mix isn't perfect either, is an expectation upon one sex that does constitute a gender role.
I think there are and must be differing expectations on either sex in Armageddon's theme. It matters on a noble level whether or not a woman is having children. It matters on a tribal level if there are not enough of either men or women to keep the tribe functioning. Tuluk's Templarate discriminates by sex.
There are enough examples in the game of gender roles and only one real case I know of sexual discrimination. Barring the case of some young female Tuluki noble wanting to be a Jihaen, the gameworld is not particularly bothered by sex but biological implications are acknowledged. I don't think anybody is claiming males or females are lesser in any context, or that they should be.
And I think what's interesting Celest and a few others, from a sociological viewpoint, is that your arguments are from the perspective that women are the outlier that must be proven equal. That is an attitude dragged in from real world gender discourse.
In Zalanthas a woman will rip your throat out.
A man will also rip your throat out.
Jihaens will kick your ass, Lirathans will order jihaens to kick your ass (or something?)
I dunno, I don't think I see "true" discrimination in that the females are viewed as lesser, but there are gender roles inherently in the game. Still, you can't avoid everything, and you can't make exceptions in the game for everything.
Quote from: spicemustflow on June 26, 2011, 06:08:50 AM
The effects of mul mix are intentionally vague so the players don't have to bother with pregnancy. If we're not talking OOC I wold say that it's very unreliable and fails more than it works.
I think that saying it fails more often than it works is a bit of a stretch, but it is unreliable in the sense that it's less than 100% effective, which gives people an option to RP accidental pregnancies if they want. I, however, still disagree that it's enough of a reason to RP that women shouldn't be in physical professions in game. The Nobles themselves have female bodyguards (I actually see female bodyguards more than male bodyguards. It's almost universal, now that I think about it), so it's clearly not an issue in game.
QuoteIf you take into account the high mortality rates and the fact that many, say, tribal groups are often near the brink of extinction it would make sense that one of the primary roles of women is to, well, get pregnant as often as possible. It's not to say that she can't do anything else, nor that an average woman is worse fighter than an average man but an average man can't contribute to the group in that particular way. I don't think women (in game women!) would view that as demeaning, if anything they would take pride in that. Also, since both sexes have the same physical potential, the abuse of women wouldn't be as universal thing as it is in many primitive societies on Earth.
In real life, sure, but this is a game, like I said. Also as I said before, the Arabet are the closest to what you are describing, but even amongst that tribe there is no gender roles or mandate that I'm aware of. It's not demeaning to get pregnant, of course, but men also take pride in having children in those situations. It isn't a gender role, because the men follow the same role: to get the women pregnant as often as possible.
QuoteNo argument from me there, fun and respect to other players is why we have all these policies. I'm not going to advocate that we should force female characters to take "traditional" roles, you misunderstood me. I'm trying to somehow tie the OOC policy and my view of the game world together.
I referenced the traditional roles because the language Delirium used (gender roles != sexist) is identical to a post in the Random Arm Thoughts thread from a month or two back, where some people were arguing that it's okay to force women to be merchants and men to be hunters, and not allow any cross over, because discrimination based on gender roles isn't sexist. Given that it's the same people arguing it now as it was then, it seemed clear to me that this was a contiuation of that argument, complete with people using the "Men can't get pregnant, but no one says that's sexist!" and "women can't put their penis in a kalan, but no one says that's sexist" strawmen.
While I get that in dire situations, in real life, there might be a need for gender roles to exist simply for the survival of the human species, this is first and foremost a game. It is a game where you can get away with drinking water once every few weeks, you never have to sleep, and magic is real. Striving for a sliver of OOC realism that clashes with the docs and IC evidence, and makes the game far less fun for some to play (and a bit more offensive) just seems like a silly thing to do. I just don't get why people insist on constantly bringing it up and trying to act as if the game world is identical to people's perceptions of OOC reality, when it's clearly not.
Quote from: CaseSpicemustflow is right; it does give rise to inherent discrimination. If we were going by individual capability, hiring only men to avoid having to deal with a pregnant employee is a decision somebody IG could make. The expectation that pregnancy is a choice, and mul mix isn't perfect either, is an expectation upon one sex that does constitute a gender role.
Except that, as I stated before, many many nobles pick female bodyguards. All the GMHs have female guards. If the nobility themselves, the GMH, pretty much every single org in the game all feel that women are just as capable as men for that role, why do players get to say otherwise? It's OOC nonsense spilling over into the game world.
QuoteI think there are and must be differing expectations on either sex in Armageddon's theme. It matters on a noble level whether or not a woman is having children. It matters on a tribal level if there are not enough of either men or women to keep the tribe functioning. Tuluk's Templarate discriminates by sex.
There are enough examples in the game of gender roles and only one real case I know of sexual discrimination. Barring the case of some young female Tuluki noble wanting to be a Jihaen, the gameworld is not particularly bothered by sex but biological implications are acknowledged. I don't think anybody is claiming males or females are lesser in any context, or that they should be.
Can you provide those examples of gender roles? Because, straight from the "quickstart" page:
Avoid imposing your own interpretations and norms on the game world. For
example, there is no sexism on Zalanthas; women and men are treated equally. This
means that the following would not happen in Armageddon: a man expressing shame
at being beaten sparring by a woman; someone referring to women as needing
protection or coddling; a woman being shamed for sexual promiscuity while a man is
praised for it. This seems to state, pretty clearly, that double standards (such as gender roles) do not exist, aside from the lone issue with the Tuluki Templarate. And this is what I see happening, quite often. Especially in your post. What you said just contradicts the docs, especially the bit about double standards.
QuoteAnd I think what's interesting Celest and a few others, from a sociological viewpoint, is that your arguments are from the perspective that women are the outlier that must be proven equal. That is an attitude dragged in from real world gender discourse.
It's because I'm a woman. Of course my perspective is going to be on inequality towards women :P Sure, it's unfair to men who want to bend traditional gender norms, but I don't see anyone thumbing their nose at the Templar wearing high heels. Lets be honest, I'm not the one who is dragging real-world gender norms into this. The docs state very clearly that there is no sexism, and yet people are trying to make excuses for sexual discrimination that enforce OOC standards. It's not just a coincidence that the gender roles people are advocating for
just happen to be identical to real life perceptions of gender, it's because people's OOC thoughts are mixing in with their view of the game world, and traditionally women are/were viewed as a lesser sex. When I see people insisting that it's a gender role, in game, for straight brawny fighter men to wear high heels and make-up then I'll be more careful with my wording. Until then, however, I don't see how you can act as if I'm the one with the OOC perspective here - and the OOC perspective being put forth by others has historically treated women as lesser compared to men. There's a reason that you never read about Men's Suffrage movements ;D