Half-breeds and sexual equality

[NOFUN]

Sorry if a thread about this had been made before, but I couldn't help but wonder since genders are equal IG socially and codedly, if both genders have the same average height, weight and frame. I suppose the main question is: from an IC point of view would a tall, musclar female be considered manly or a lithe male feminie?                                                                                                                                                                     On another note that isn't so equal, it's common to see racism against half-breeds, with muls  being born only as valuable tools and the policy to spit at the filthy half-elf. HG's on the other seem to be treated well ICLY, with most npc HG's ending up with a well paid job in the milita.. perhaps I'm just oblivious, but if not is there a reason HG's don't receive the same hate as the other groups of breeds?

[musashi]

The reason is that half giants are easily controlled.

Elves are sneaky conniving bastards unworthy of trust on any level, and if you're half elf ... you're half that.

[Akaramu]

I mis-read the title, and thought this was about half-breeds and sex. *shudder* Thank you for not going there 

[Marauder Moe]

Sorry if a thread about this had been made before, but I couldn't help but wonder since genders are equal IG socially and codedly, if both genders have the same average height, weight and frame. I suppose the main question is: from an IC point of view would a tall, musclar female be considered manly or a lithe male feminie?

In Zalanthas there is no (or at least there isn't really supposed to be a) concept of "manly" or "feminine".

Your character may have viewpoints/stereotypes (positive or negative) regarding large, muscular people.  Likewise, they may have viewpoints regarding small, skinny people.  However, these viewpoints wouldn't be tied to either gender.

On another note that isn't so equal, it's common to see racism against half-breeds, with muls  being born only as valuable tools and the policy to spit at the filthy half-elf. HG's on the other seem to be treated well ICLY, with most npc HG's ending up with a well paid job in the milita.. perhaps I'm just oblivious, but if not is there a reason HG's don't receive the same hate as the other groups of breeds?

They're not hated because they're generally useful and agreeable.  There's plenty of racism towards half-giants; few people would ever consider them equals as sentient beings.  They just don't have much reason to hate them for it.

[Marshmellow]

Calling anyone "manly" or "feminine" would be doing so with gender stereotypes in mind, and I wouldn't do either.

As for muls and HGs being okay?   For muls, it IS because they are too valuable and too emotional to treat them any way but with some respect.  HGs are easily controlled, too, because they're so dumb and because they attach themselves to someone they admire and can be trusted.

From the human perspective:
- Elves aren't trusted.  Elves are dirty.  (Think of elves as any oppressed racial minority in the past, like the Jews in Nazi Germany and those of African descent just about constantly in the US.)  You wouldn't want to be near one, let alone sleep with one, and the half-breed children are even MORE disgusting than elves themselves because they are PROOF that some human slept with one of those dirty neckers.

With elves, the situation is similar but reversed:
- Humans are stupid and weak (yes, I know that humans have a higher strength score, and so do the elves, but the elves can outrun a human any day of the week), and to make matters worse, they can't be trusted.  Wait, humans can't be trusted?  Well, technically, no one can be trusted to an elf, but at least another elf is coming from somewhere similar.  Humans are nasty, round-eared, weak-legged twats... and someone slept with one to produce this thing?  Yuck

[NOFUN]

If there's no concept of manly or feminine IC, would it be acceptable for a man to wear a skirt or for a female to have facial hair?

[Marshmellow]

Women don't grow facial hair that well, but sure.

And yes, in the documentation it states that both males and females in Tuluk wear kilts.

[NOFUN]

Haha, new concept for my next character there. Cross dressing male, see how pcs react to my OOCly femine clothing

[Marauder Moe]

Haha, new concept for my next character there. Cross dressing male, see how pcs react to my OOCly femine clothing

Well, I suppose clothing is one of the remnants/exceptions.

People will likely think your crossdresser is odd, but well-played Zalanthas aren't really going to demean him for it.  Well, unless he's supposed to be a big, buff, gruff warrior type, in which case they'll make fun of him for wearing silk or other fineries regardless of what gender they're tailored for.

[Fredd]

Lets not forget that due to the hormones/whatever racing throgh the half elves, that they arent right in the head.

[Lizzie]

Women don't grow facial hair that well, but sure.

And yes, in the documentation it states that both males and females in Tuluk wear kilts.

There IS such a thing as manly and feminine. You point out one glaring example: women don't grow facial hair that well. Also, women typically have noticeable breasts, an inward curve to their waist, and expanded hip bones for the express purpose of bearing children, which men are not capable of doing. Men have penises. Women do not. Women do not typically lose their hair as they age. Conversely, it is not uncommon for men to do exactly that.

Men and women in zalanthas are EQUAL. They are not the same. Equal does not mean the same. I really wish people would get over the whole "no don't stereotype oh no evil men and women are the same in arm!" crap. They're not the same. Men are noticeable as men, if they are masculine. Women are noticeable as women, because they are feminine. There are androgynous men and women - whose gender is NOT noticeable easily.

There are even clothes that specify that they are feminine, and provide a minor detail in the mdesc explaining how it is, that the observer can know that there's a difference. Bodices are built to fit a woman's form. That is to say, extended breasts, a tapered waist, and a flare to the hips. An androgynous person would have to get those things specially fitted to even stay up, let alone look good. Many of the Kadius gowns are very specifically designed to be worn by women, and there are shoes that are decisively masculine.

There -is- feminine and masculine in the game. It is supported by code, it is approved by staff since they're the ones who approve and implement all these masculine and feminine clothes. They also approve all the mdescs that specify that the PC has a masculine this, or a feminine that..

Code supported, staff supported, staff approved, masculine and feminine.

Men are equal to, but not the same as, women. If they were the same, there would not be two genders. There are two genders, because they are not the same.

EDITED TO CLARIFY: not all women are feminine. Not all men are masculine. But there -are- feminine traits, and there -are- masuline traits. And they are identifiable, in those who possess them.

[Marauder Moe]

EDITED TO CLARIFY: not all women are feminine. Not all men are masculine. But there -are- feminine traits, and there -are- masuline traits. And they are identifiable, in those who possess them.

Yes, but back to the point...

In Zalanthas...
Strength is not a masculine trait.
Weakness is not a feminine trait.

[Akaramu]

Haha, new concept for my next character there. Cross dressing male, see how pcs react to my OOCly femine clothing

It's been done so many times, you probably wouldn't be perceived as an oddity. 

[sleepyhead]

It's been done so many times, you probably wouldn't be perceived as an oddity. 

Probably not very often, anyway.

[hyzhenhok]

EDITED TO CLARIFY: not all women are feminine. Not all men are masculine. But there -are- feminine traits, and there -are- masuline traits. And they are identifiable, in those who possess them.

Yes, but back to the point...

In Zalanthas...
Strength is not a masculine trait.
Weakness is not a feminine trait.

Those we can agree on.

But height? Petiteness? Musculature? There comes a point where we have to agree that yes, some of these are masculine, some are these are feminine.

The important part is not to stereotype, and to avoid prejudice against masculine women or feminine men IC. Men and women are not necessarily the same. But they are equal, to the point where there should be nothing strange or inferior about a man with feminine traits, or a woman with masculine traits.

[Yam]

In my mind, masculine and feminine refer to sex hormone effects. They are not tied to strength, power or anything like that. They are tied to looks though. One may look very masculine without any strength. One may look very feminine and be able to tear the ears off a carru.

[Cindy42]

stupid, controllable killing machines with better fighting power than any other race, whose trust can be easily gained by a new owner--- a problem natural to most races to even a small extent i think. i'd say they're a very appreciated lower-rung.

half-breeds are a disgusting blend of elven and human features and sometimes attitudes--- who always wander off by themselves and don't seek steady jobs.

and i think the trustworthiness of some dwarves gives them a few points. muls are just rare, expensive commodities with unusual temperaments and behaviors, like fancy, somewhat stronger than usual dogs. i think dwarves experience slightly less open racism too, not that its any less racism, its just that they seem to have the opposing single behavior of elves that singles elves out for the worst discrimination--- an ability to be trusted. only sometimes, but when they can be trusted, it is absolute. am i saying this right, or am i mistaking it for something else?

[racurtne]

Racism towards half-elves is likely less due to any sort of aversion to their behavior and more to do with what they represent. They represent a corruption of human blood with a race that is already looked down upon. They are an abomination in the eyes of an entire society that basically has a superiority complex akin to the "scientific" racism that caused so many problems throughout the world in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. (U.S. included)

Edited a drunk typo, Ah St. Patrick's Day.

[Lizzie]

I think maybe in this case, it's better to let the docs explain about half-elven roleplay, AND how non-half-elves perceive half-elves in society:

http://www.armageddon.org/rp/racial/halfelfconflict.html

All half-elves have a strong need for acceptance, born of their upbringing. As a bastard offspring of conflicting cultures, it is extremely difficult if not impossible for a half-elf to be accepted anywhere. Humans see a half-elf as a product of the untrustworthy filth that is an elf, and elves see half-elves as weak and tribeless; and half-elves have no culture of their own.

They are also "typically the result of violence" which implies, in most cases, rape. No elf, or human, wants a constant reminder thrust in their faces, that someone of one race raped another. That is what the half-elf represents, regardless of his or her particular background.

[racurtne]

Well, I can't see how that quote conflicts in any way with what I said, but I bow to your docs reference.

[Synthesis]

Probably already been said...but "half"-giants really aren't half-breeds of anything, as far as any commoner knows ICly.  If I recall correctly, they were originally the product of some sort of magickal fusion, but that's probably something that nobody except 1337 sorcerers would have any working knowledge of.

As far as any of your commoner PCs are concerned, a "half" giant is a discrete race, and they're only "half" in the sense that they're smaller than giants, which most of your commoner PCs would regard largely as mythological or the product of tall tales (pun!), unless they're some sort of sun-scalded veteran dune-humper who has direct knowledge.  (Yes, there were some semi-recent IC events, but unless your character was actually -there-, I'd suggest that even southern city-based characters would largely be skeptical of rumors about the existence of true giants, regardless of the facts we may or may not know OOCly.)

[SMuz]

HG's on the other seem to be treated well ICLY, with most npc HG's ending up with a well paid job in the milita.. perhaps I'm just oblivious, but if not is there a reason HG's don't receive the same hate as the other groups of breeds?

See if you can muster the balls to insult a HG to his/her face It makes complete IC sense not to give as much up front hate to someone who's twice your size, with the brains/maturity of a child.

HG's are also fairly harmless if they're on your side, unlike an elf or half-elf who'll always be trouble if he's anywhere near you. They're actually quite useful to befriend too.

[Lizzie]

Well, I can't see how that quote conflicts in any way with what I said, but I bow to your docs reference.

It was in support of what you said, not in conflict with it. In other words - your opinion is backed by the documentation of the game.

[NOFUN]

The same thing could be said for muls, who are almost always slaves despite being, from a coded point of view the best race. Though a HG seems to make a much netter slave, easily manipulated, not nearly as likely to go berserk and kill it's owner and since they're almost more common would be alot cheaper.  Though I suppose owning a tamed mul would be a sign of power

[Is Friday]

The same thing could be said for muls, who are almost always slaves despite being, from a coded point of view the best race. Though a HG seems to make a much netter slave, easily manipulated, not nearly as likely to go berserk and kill it's owner and since they're almost more common would be alot cheaper.  Though I suppose owning a tamed mul would be a sign of power

Muls are the race with the most disadvantages, in my opinion. Stop thinking about D&D stats, and start thinking about roleplaying.