...really? Shouldn't there be some point at which this doesn't happen? Shouldn't every guild every get a high enough ride to overcome this, at least while at a walking pace?
I've got a rather long lived character who spent nearly every waking moment atop a mount for at least 20 days play time...and yet it seems I can't navigate through the scrubs without flat out falling off my mount, while at a walking pace. Does anyone else find this to be a bit ridiculous?
Is ride a skill that can be bumped with some logs? Do I even need the logs at this point, given how many days play time my character has, and what his profession is? It would seem very strange for him to suddenly start "practicing his riding" after nearly 20 years in game.
Nevermind the fact that I've seen other people I know are the same guild as my character ride around with a weapon in each hand...that's probably another post. ;)
QuoteSkill Ride (Movement)
Notes:
One hand must always be free for holding the reins, until you reach
high levels of skill.
The more hands you have free to use on the reins, the easier it is to
control your mount.
The speed you are riding can have an impact on your ability to control
your mount.
The terrain as well as type of mount can have an impact on your ability
to control your mount.
Maybe you're just not a rider.
edit to add: And really, individual issues are best dealt with by a request and not a call to arms on the GDB, but feel free to bring up the topic in general. :)
I will answer the gist of the other question though:
Ride is a skill that can be bumped with logs. Just because you have a long-lived character doesn't mean your long-lived character is an expert at riding without training it, and even if you do train it up to the highest point you can (unless you are a half-elf or a ranger) you're probably not going to be an expert rider. There are a lot of variables that affect riding, and your assessment of your character's level of skill may just be wrong; the helpfile points at that specifically.
That's my point though - I think every guild should eventually be able to get decent enough to the point that they don't just flat out fall off a mount while it's walking. Zalanthas is extremely mount oriented - if you want to survive outside the gates you will learn to ride.
I'm not sure how the algorithms work for skill advancement, and I wouldn't care if it takes a long time to achieve this level of skill...I just think everyone should be able to get to the point where they can safely ride a mount over pretty well anything, provided they're walking the mount. Seriously. I used to ride horses in the mountains all the time. It's not that difficult at all when the animal is walking, and you've got a nice saddle to sit in. Even over crappy terrain.
I don't understand why rangers are the only one with a really high ride skill - everyone in Armageddon uses a mount, if they ever leave the gates. (Except you stinky elves).
I don't agree that everyone should be able to ride a mount everywhere ... but for the scope of what you seem to be talking about (the scrublands, grasslands ... areas close to the main settlements basically) I'm inclined to agree that yes, everyone with enough practice should be abe to not fall off the saddle if walking their mount with both hands free to hold the reigns. I had hoped it was this way already.
People roll ranger to be really good on a mount just like warriors roll warrior to kick butt.
Outside of special requests for skill bumps let's leave as is.
But rangers are so good at so many other things (most powerful mundane guild in the mud, IMO), and still go above and beyond other guilds while mounted with the charge/trample (or whatever they're called these days) combo.
Do they really need to have a base ride skill higher than everyone else too? Does that actually make sense?
I disagree... rangers get a variety of skills, but IMO, most of them have relatively low caps compared to what dedicated guilds do.
Also, most powerful mundane guild: MERCHANT.
Quote from: drunkendwarf on December 31, 2009, 11:26:31 AM
But rangers are so good at so many other things (most powerful mundane guild in the mud, IMO), and still go above and beyond other guilds while mounted with the charge/trample (or whatever they're called these days) combo.
Do they really need to have a base ride skill higher than everyone else too? Does that actually make sense?
I think you should get riding classes from a in-game expert rider, log it, and send it in. Do this instead of modify classes. I personally pick ranger because I know out of everything else traveling will be the least worrisome (outside of combat).
Don't ride around with a six foot long club in your hand and I think you will be alright. I rarely ever fall off my mount with a non-ranger, unless I start using a weapon in my strong hand.
This is exactly my point though...
QuoteI rarely ever never fall off my mount with a non-ranger, unless I start using a weapon in my strong hand.
That's how I think it should read. And I don't care if it takes 40 days play time to get there with any other guild, I just think all of them should be able to get there.
It's obvious I'm apparently in the minority on this one, so if I have to go about getting lessons from an expert riding and sending in the logs, that's fine.
I've learned to ride fairly well with a character that didn't have a guild or subguild that was good at riding.
Quote from: jcljules on December 31, 2009, 12:13:01 PM
I've learned to ride fairly well with a character that didn't have a guild or subguild that was good at riding.
QFT
I don't think it's the guild ride cap that's affecting your character's riding. It's more than likely a mixture of a lot of different factors.
I was able to ride pretty much flawlessly with a non-ranger. It's possible.
I think certain factors influence your ride cap. Maybe it can be viewed as a character flaw to RP out instead of an OOC limitation.
My character only falls off the mount anymore at socially inappropriate, random times where it makes the character look horridly trained in riding to the other characters there.
All thanks to the code - no emotes required!
err... Also, arn't inix supposed to be one of the more difficult mounts to ride?
Some people just don't have what it takes to ride effortlessly. I feel it's okay to just accept that.
Like me in real life - I LOVE riding horses. However, I am not, nor will I ever be, particularly good at it. I'm from the burbs, didn't start riding til I was 30, didn't spend my entire life around horses, and I'm a self-trained rider. Even if I had lessons, I'm just not graceful enough or patient enough to command a horse with any measure of expertise.
Now, take my inexpert rank at riding, and put me on a Clydesdale, and set us on the Great Sand Dunes park in Colorado. I can pretty much guarantee you that I won't make it 1/4 mile before I either fall off, or the horse just flat out refuses to move any further. Such is the life of someone who 1) is not cut out to ever be very good at riding, and 2) attempting to do so in a part of the world that is completely out of her element.
Now take the average Tuluki, put him on an inix, and tell him to go riding the Red Desert. It's the same thing. Unless the Tuluki was "born to ride" (ie - a ranger, or someone whose ride skill can actually get very good), it just ain't gonna happen. If you want to be good at riding, pick a class/subclass that is "intended" for riding.
I disagree with the simple fact that riding a horse is most certainly not the primary mode of transportation for our society. Any comparisons you make here I think are going to be irrelevant.
Just try out a different mount and I think you will be fine.
As has been said, if you're keeping both your hands free, walking, and in a relatively tame patch of wilderness like the grasslands, scrubs, salt flats, ect ... then hopefully you won't fall off your mount more or less ever.
Never say never though ... rangers can still fall off a mount ... no matter how silly and small the chance can be midigated down to be.
Quote from: drunkendwarf on December 31, 2009, 01:18:17 PM
I disagree with the simple fact that riding a horse is most certainly not the primary mode of transportation for our society. Any comparisons you make here I think are going to be irrelevant.
While it's considerably more infrequent than IG, seasoned riders fall off their horse once an awhile. Oh, and really? No, I mean that. Everything you think I mean. That's what.
QuoteOh, and really? No, I mean that. Everything you think I mean. That's what.
What the hell are you saying? :)
Quote from: drunkendwarf on December 31, 2009, 01:18:17 PM
I disagree with the simple fact that riding a horse is most certainly not the primary mode of transportation for our society.
Most city-born Zalanthans don't use any transportation beyond their own two feet. Owning a mount doesn't really make sense unless your profession requires you to leave the walls.
I don't think you would find many expert riders in most pre-automotive real-world cultures, either, whether urban or rural.
My all characters after the mount rewamp never fell off their mounts after getting experienced. Maybe it's because I don't dual wield weapons during riding and I barely ever go out to very hazardaous terrain, but still...
I don't see a bug with the mount code. It may be the main transportation of Zalanthas, but nearly all people except soldiers, hunters and filthy mages would always ride on roads, which seem to give a very hefty bonus to ride skill. Aide Lila, even Sergeant Steelpants could still fall on a hazardous region because their daily routine doesn't involve crossing hazardaous lands and it feels sensible to me.
I don't think one should fall off their mount beyond the earliest stages of ride. If that's not the case, it should be fixed. At 20 days played and having been a steady rider, this should never happen. Seems like over the last five years there is this trend to try and make things codedly as much of a pain in the butt as possible. It's really killing my enjoyment of the game. Seems like when I play I'm being forced to spend too much of my time concentrating on dealing with coded nuisances instead of just rp'ing. The grey area that we can rp in is rapidly disappearing and I feel the game is becoming overcoded with stuff that adds nothing to enjoyment of the game and only serves to irritate me when I play.
If you have two weapons out you're riding by your hips alone. You should fall off unless you're an expert rider.
Rangers have this potential. Simple.
It could also be that a naturally clumsy individual might not be well-adjusted to travel. If your Agility is low (don't tell us on here), you might just be maladjusted to riding. It is a sucky situation to be in, but I can see there being a few reasons to do this from a balance perspective:
1) Again, trying to make the rangers more dependable than a warrior/hunter.
2) Trying to make people more dependent on wagons.
3) Trying to make people more dependent on whirans (those that would dare to use them).
4) Limiting how much you can practice your Ride skill.
5) Limiting what areas you go into unless you're strictly on foot.
6) And, as with above, limiting by race, stat and guild who is good at riding.
7) Specializing which mounts are good for each race. It could be that maybe your race is not suited to Inix.
Anyway, the above is speculation, but you could experiment with the code and see if any of those are true.
Well, I noticed that nomads are particularly good with mounts. It's nice.
Mercenaries as well.
Quote from: drunkendwarf on December 31, 2009, 01:18:17 PM
I disagree with the simple fact that riding a horse is most certainly not the primary mode of transportation for our society. Any comparisons you make here I think are going to be irrelevant.
You're right; instead of having a fuzzy, nicely-curved back to stick a saddle on, you've got a slippery, bumpy carapace.
QuoteI don't think one should fall off their mount beyond the earliest stages of ride. If that's not the case, it should be fixed. At 20 days played and having been a steady rider, this should never happen. Seems like over the last five years there is this trend to try and make things codedly as much of a pain in the butt as possible. It's really killing my enjoyment of the game. Seems like when I play I'm being forced to spend too much of my time concentrating on dealing with coded nuisances instead of just rp'ing. The grey area that we can rp in is rapidly disappearing and I feel the game is becoming overcoded with stuff that adds nothing to enjoyment of the game and only serves to irritate me when I play.
I so agree.
I often sit here going, Why is this in game? I could name at least 10 things that have been added in the last 4 years that add nothing to the game, subtract from rp and simply annoy....bleh.
What X-D said
Quote from: X-D on January 01, 2010, 08:43:20 PM
Quote from: jhunterI don't think one should fall off their mount beyond the earliest stages of ride. If that's not the case, it should be fixed. At 20 days played and having been a steady rider, this should never happen. Seems like over the last five years there is this trend to try and make things codedly as much of a pain in the butt as possible. It's really killing my enjoyment of the game. Seems like when I play I'm being forced to spend too much of my time concentrating on dealing with coded nuisances instead of just rp'ing. The grey area that we can rp in is rapidly disappearing and I feel the game is becoming overcoded with stuff that adds nothing to enjoyment of the game and only serves to irritate me when I play.
I often sit here going, Why is this in game? I could name at least 10 things that have been added in the last 4 years that add nothing to the game, subtract from rp and simply annoy....bleh.
Gotta love that progressive criticism. I suggest making a new thread compiling these 10 or so things over the last 4-5 years that have been 'killing your rp' and 'overcoding' the game. I'm really curious what these things can be since I've only seen coding improvement in Arm during these years. Then again, I wasn't around past 5 years ago, so maybe things were coded perfectly back then?
Quote from: drunkendwarf...really? Shouldn't there be some point at which this doesn't happen? Shouldn't every guild every get a high enough ride to overcome this, at least while at a walking pace?
I believe every guild should be able to master riding to the point where they never fall off. That said, I prefer the falling off code to the 'refuses to move' code.
I say if you want to be a good rider, pick a class/subclass that is a good rider.
There are so many other things in the game that don't make sense like how you don't learn combat moves
when you train in the 'Byn despite training almost every day for a year? Haha.
You skin an animal and get one piece of meat?
And on and on and on. Just deal with it. Personally I find any logs submitted to boost stats or skills
or to add skills a little twinkish but again that's just me.
I would kinda rather have those things fixed to be better in line with realistic expectation than just deal with them. :-\
In my expert* opinion, it takes longer to teach your PC to ride than it does to actually go out and learn how to ride a real horse. To rub salt in that particular grievance, you have to start over a square one with each new character. And so, the "you fall off" shtick got old quick, even through there's a realism in riding being an exhausting activity.
I think characters should take a percentage of the terrain's MV cost when riding (but still able to ride when their own personal MV is at 0). Rangers and experienced riders are taxed less. Only when the mount is running, the character wielding two items, or in combat should falling off be at all common.
(*maybe a total of 10 hours worth of lessons and practice in mountainous-desert terrain. When I was 12.)
Quote from: number13 on January 02, 2010, 02:48:58 AM
In my expert* opinion, it takes longer to teach your PC to ride than it does to actually go out and learn how to ride a real horse. To rub salt in that particular grievance, you have to start over a square one with each new character. And so, the "you fall off" shtick got old quick, even through there's a realism in riding being an exhausting activity.
I think characters should take a percentage of the terrain's MV cost when riding (but still able to ride when their own personal MV is at 0). Rangers and experienced riders are taxed less. Only when the mount is running, the character wielding two items, or in combat should falling off be at all common.
(*maybe a total of 10 hours worth of lessons and practice in mountainous-desert terrain. When I was 12.)
+1
Just fell off again last night.
While walking the mount, with a small weapon in my off hand, moving through the desert. Nothing particularly harrowing about the terrain by the room desc. I find it ridiculous.
Quote from: drunkendwarf on January 02, 2010, 10:17:44 AM
Just fell off again last night.
While walking the mount, with a small weapon in my off hand, moving through the desert. Nothing particularly harrowing about the terrain by the room desc. I find it ridiculous.
Options:
1. Keep riding on rough terrain until you skill up enough to not do it.
2. Don't ride on rough terrain.
3. Store and app a new PC with that is a Ranger, Merchant, Breed, Merc, or Caravan Guide (or any combination of the prior, for that matter).
(wow, that's a lot of options for a rider with a high ride start and/or cap)
4. SHEATHE THE DAMN DAGGER. :D
This message brought to you by your friendly neighborhood helper-man.
Or get a mount suited to the terrain. Inixes clearly do better in certain places where they come from, or else they would not live there. Should be the same with war beetles, sunbacks, ratlons, etc.
Even if that doesn't have any coded effect, at least it will be easier to RP understanding what to do on different terrain for skill bump logs.
Quote from: drunkendwarf on January 02, 2010, 10:17:44 AM
Just fell off again last night.
While walking the mount, with a small weapon in my off hand, moving through the desert. Nothing particularly harrowing about the terrain by the room desc. I find it ridiculous.
Is your agility abysmal? I have never had these issues. Then again all my characters have been rangers so far (I'm so bad).
Quote from: drunkendwarf on January 02, 2010, 10:17:44 AM
Just fell off again last night.
While walking the mount, with a small weapon in my off hand, moving through the desert. Nothing particularly harrowing about the terrain by the room desc. I find it ridiculous.
Quote from: Nyr on December 31, 2009, 10:30:03 AM
edit to add: And really, individual issues are best dealt with by a request and not a call to arms on the GDB, but feel free to bring up the topic in general. :)
Discuss? Go ahead. If you have a specific concern about something with YOUR character, this is not the place to bring it up.
The reason I brought it up is to see if other people are having similar issues with fairly long lived characters that you know have had plenty of practice riding.
Reasons why I think the riding code is fine, and don't think comparisons with riding horses can be sustained-
Horses like people. Because horses tend to like people, they try to help you stay on. Anybody who has ridden a horse who did NOT like to be ridden or who did NOT like the person for some reason knows that horses are stinkers who will make riding a pain when they don't like you. On the other hand, insects and lizards don't like people. They can't, they're missing the part of the brain that lets them get attached to things in the same way mammals do. Your lizard would probably not care one way or another whether you stay on.
Insects and lizards are not shaped like horses. These things probably do not have nicely rounded backs that legs can fit around naturally, which is conducive to staying on something. I picture riding Zalanthan mounts, beetles particularly, as riding a rolling barrel with a saddle. And probably not even a very secure saddle, given the shape of beetle carapaces and stuff.
Riding over rough terrain is strenuous. Even when riding horses. Riding in Zalanthas is probably even more strenuous than I can imagine, with the factors mentioned above taken into account.
Conclusion- I don't see the falling off the mount code as excessive. Even with non-riding classes, I rarely fall if I follow the advice of people given here. Ride smoother areas, ride with both hands on the reigns, etc. Sure it's a pain to fall off, but if you want your character to be good at riding, there are ways to make a character good at riding.
Camels-like animals in 2.Arm FTW.
Quote from: valeria on January 02, 2010, 10:53:03 AM
Reasons why I think the riding code is fine, and don't think comparisons with riding horses can be sustained-
Horses like people. Because horses tend to like people, they try to help you stay on. Anybody who has ridden a horse who did NOT like to be ridden or who did NOT like the person for some reason knows that horses are stinkers who will make riding a pain when they don't like you. On the other hand, insects and lizards don't like people. They can't, they're missing the part of the brain that lets them get attached to things in the same way mammals do. Your lizard would probably not care one way or another whether you stay on.
Insects and lizards are not shaped like horses. These things probably do not have nicely rounded backs that legs can fit around naturally, which is conducive to staying on something. I picture riding Zalanthan mounts, beetles particularly, as riding a rolling barrel with a saddle. And probably not even a very secure saddle, given the shape of beetle carapaces and stuff.
Riding over rough terrain is strenuous. Even when riding horses. Riding in Zalanthas is probably even more strenuous than I can imagine, with the factors mentioned above taken into account.
Conclusion- I don't see the falling off the mount code as excessive. Even with non-riding classes, I rarely fall if I follow the advice of people given here. Ride smoother areas, ride with both hands on the reigns, etc. Sure it's a pain to fall off, but if you want your character to be good at riding, there are ways to make a character good at riding.
This would only be true if you're going out and taming your own mount. The mounts that are sold my NPCs should be well trained, and shouldn't be trying to buck you off. If you bought a horse from a breeder of horses, and ever 3 miles it would randomly buck you off and you HURT YOURSELF, what would you do? I'd return the damn thing and demand something better trained.
No, insects and lizards are NOT shaped like horses. However, Zalanthians have been riding these things for.... How mnay years now? Thousands? We're in the 21st age that had some 74 years per age? Yeah. A Zalanthian is gonna be used to the shape of the beast.
My problem with this code: When you fall, you loose HP. Some warriors will fall off ever 1-4 rooms for the first 5ish days(so I've observed). Heck, even one of my rangers fell off a few times after this code went in, and she was already at 15-20 days played! I find falling off the mount jarring, I find your mount refuses to move jarring. I find the latter LESS jarring.
Quote from: tortall on January 02, 2010, 12:43:17 PM
...
My problem with this code: When you fall, you loose HP.
...
When you fall, do not just hop back and proceed just to fall again. A single emote is enough time to regen the few HP lost because you're reclining when you fell and you're regenerating. Fall, emote "emote dazed, me struggles to regain his footing;feel stars". Then type stand and you'll have full health again.
Or sheathe one of those weapons and you'll not fall again.
QuoteI think characters should take a percentage of the terrain's MV cost when riding (but still able to ride when their own personal MV is at 0). Rangers and experienced riders are taxed less. Only when the mount is running, the character wielding two items, or in combat should falling off be at all common.
No. Not unless some of the other things that already tax movement are done away with or the scale is changed to alot for more movement vs. your endurance skill than it currently is. That's a trend that I would like to see go away. Taxing this and that with more and more movement and stun pts.
My point isn't whether I'd return a horse that bucks me off, my point is that insects and lizards are NOT horses. They aren't going to be as easy to ride as horses. Any comparison with horses is apples and oranges, unless your character is riding a horse. Nor is being 'used to' a sloping convex surface isn't going to help your legs grip it any easier. Especially if your mount doesn't have a saddle (and not all of them do).
I don't find it jarring or unrealistic at all. One of my professors- riding a horse who he has been riding for years, not a lizard- fell off this past summer and broke his leg riding over rough terrain. He's been riding for 30 years. And then there's Christopher Reeve. ;D
Quote from: evil_erdlu on January 02, 2010, 12:52:39 PM
Quote from: tortall on January 02, 2010, 12:43:17 PM
...
My problem with this code: When you fall, you loose HP.
...
When you fall, do not just hop back and proceed just to fall again. A single emote is enough time to regen the few HP lost because you're reclining when you fell and you're regenerating. Fall, emote "emote dazed, me struggles to regain his footing;feel stars". Then type stand and you'll have full health again.
If you're in the grasslands east of Tuluk, maybe. Anywhere south of Luir's, it will take you all goddamn day to recover 5 lost HP out in the open.
Quote
When you fall, do not just hop back and proceed just to fall again. A single emote is enough time to regen the few HP lost because you're reclining when you fell and you're regenerating. Fall, emote "emote dazed, me struggles to regain his footing;feel stars". Then type stand and you'll have full health again.
That works fine if you fall once, twice a trip. When nearly everyone in a large RPT party is taking a dozen tumbles each, it becomes cumbersome. And silly.
Quote from: number13 on January 02, 2010, 08:15:42 PM
Quote
When you fall, do not just hop back and proceed just to fall again. A single emote is enough time to regen the few HP lost because you're reclining when you fell and you're regenerating. Fall, emote "emote dazed, me struggles to regain his footing;feel stars". Then type stand and you'll have full health again.
That works fine if you fall once, twice a trip. When nearly everyone in a large RPT party is taking a dozen tumbles each, it becomes cumbersome. And silly.
Then forgive me about my ranting without enough evidence.. I can see how bothersome it can be for clans that are forced inside the gates like Byn may face when they hit the road for the first time. I didn't think about it, but to my defence, I was sick yesterday night so my mind wasn't possibly very sharp.
It's not that bad. If you are a ranger or a merchant you'll be past the cap in no time. Warriors etc, it is a bit harder for.
What would fix it all is to raise the riding cap a bit for non-ranger so that once you are pretty good at riding it doesn't happen anymore. Right now I have a pretty old warrior and it seems my riding is set (as in not going to get any better - though I could be wrong) and I still fall off every so often. I didn't mind the falling when I was first learning but it's a little irritating now. Adjusting the tops would remove this.
find some riding gloves
And the little horse whippy thing.. can't remember what it's called.
A riding crop?
Quote from: musashi on January 04, 2010, 01:55:46 PM
A riding crop?
ass crop
A riding crop looks useful for mudsex.But no, really, there are some items that could help with riding and those are definitely good too.
Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Seen them IG, never used them.
I can honestly say that with my last longer-lived warrior, riding was absolutely not a problem. On occassion I would have to "urge" it forward, or it might refuse to move, but that was during a sandstorm on a non-road area.
Though, I never did get the hang of riding with two weapons out.
I only wish spurs were available to more than just *cough cough spice jockeys cough cough*
Quote from: drunkendwarf on December 31, 2009, 10:24:35 AM
...really? Shouldn't there be some point at which this doesn't happen? Shouldn't every guild every get a high enough ride to overcome this, at least while at a walking pace?
I've got a rather long lived character who spent nearly every waking moment atop a mount for at least 20 days play time...and yet it seems I can't navigate through the scrubs without flat out falling off my mount, while at a walking pace. Does anyone else find this to be a bit ridiculous?
Is ride a skill that can be bumped with some logs? Do I even need the logs at this point, given how many days play time my character has, and what his profession is? It would seem very strange for him to suddenly start "practicing his riding" after nearly 20 years in game.
Nevermind the fact that I've seen other people I know are the same guild as my character ride around with a weapon in each hand...that's probably another post. ;)
I think, like many things, it's influenced by wisdom.
Dumbasses don't make good riders.
Quote from: Clearsighted on January 04, 2010, 01:51:20 PM
find some riding gloves
While I like the idea that in game items to boosts riding exist, one shouldn't need the magically, sparkly, riding gloves to avoid falling on a regular basis after years of training. Not sure what the coded solution, but eventually even warriors should stop falling off their mounts (regularly, under regular circumstances).
Yeah, and regular circumstances for most Zalanthans is with at least one weapon, or shield in hand.
I put a hearty agreement in for a much less frequent fall for characters of all guilds. Running on your mount, trying to double wield and ride, that should cause you woe. But moving at an steady(easy) pace should only cause you to fail in extremely rare circumstances. After a lot of time riding, it just shouldn't happen unless you're dumb enough to ride up a steep slope or jagged terrain.
Quote from: jmordetsky on January 04, 2010, 11:59:03 PM
Quote from: Clearsighted on January 04, 2010, 01:51:20 PM
find some riding gloves
While I like the idea that in game items to boosts riding exist, one shouldn't need the magically, sparkly, riding gloves to avoid falling on a regular basis after years of training. Not sure what the coded solution, but eventually even warriors should stop falling off their mounts (regularly, under regular circumstances).
Warriors can ride just fine, once they get the skill up. Hell, with riding gloves, I had a warrior who could ride just fine dual wielding, with no special race or subclass bonuses.
Instead of losing the large amount of health we lose now - Why not swap the loss between health and stun?
"Oh, but what if I want to Way that special someone while riding, Gunner?"
Well, if you suck at riding - You should be concentrating on riding and not Waying that sexy [-insert sdesc here-] from the Bar.
Even while mounted, stun comes back at a reasonable rate while health, unfortunately, does not. Either way, if you are forced to stop and let the rider rest, you'll have to sit there through half the sun-baked day if he's trying to regain a moderate amount of health. If it's stun, despite the weather, he'll still get it back after a few moments. If someone is -bent- on riding past their limits, despite the outcome, then they'll suffer being knocked out.
It's depressing to lose 8-10 health per fall, so if you fall half a dozen times, your practically half-dead. That just doesn't seem realistic. Half-conscious seems more plausible then half-dead, to a few falls.
This whole feature makes no sense to me.
Before: terrible riders would have a hard time riding because the mount would refuse to move. This was mostly a nuisance if trying to ride with a group, but the only thing lost was a bit of time, and really it was quite easy to get to the point where refuses-to-move virtually never happened.
Now: terrible riders will literally die if they try to ride any kind of distance off-road. Bringing a poor rider along with your group is no longer a time-consuming nuisance, it is now flat out impossible as they will lose 10 health every step of the way. The only positive thing about it is that you can now ride on roads without ever failing, though this of course means that the rider will never get better in this way.
This feature does nothing but remove the ability for newer non-ranger characters to go anywhere off the few roads in the game world. The health loss is crippling. You cannot just nip three rooms off to the side and kill that tregil, because that's 5-10 health each step of the way and back. It doesn't help groups because the unskilled riders still can't come along as they will now die instead of merely slowing down the progression. It isn't realistic and it isn't good for playability.
A few details:
- Unless a new character is of the right guild or subguild, no amount of having free hands or slowing down will prevent you from falling off your mount literally every single room without exception in any kind of non-road terrain. The starting ride skill of such guilds as pickpockets, assassins and warriors is that low.
- Moderately skilled riders still fall off their mounts with some regularity. Highly skilled riders are not wholly exempt from this phenomenon either, and it may take literally maxed ride to avoid it altogether.
- The damage taken from falling off your mount is often equivalent to being solidly slashed on the head.
- Practicing riding is now a hundred times more troublesome as a) you do not fail on roads or in cities and b) instead of just stalling, you get injured and can't practice for very long or with any degree of safety.
Facts:
- Riding anything with a horizontal back and a saddle on reasonably level terrain is not difficult. People learn the basics in real life in a matter of days, and falling off a horse, camel or elephant is seriously uncommon unless riding at high speed.
- Falling off a walking animal is borderline impossible. Doing so every few steps is unheard of in the history of riding. Dunes and flat rock are not inherently more difficult to ride on than grass and soil.
- Falling off a horse/rhino/ostrich-sized animal would not consistently cause serious injury every time it happens.
Suggested changes:
- Inflict stun damage rather than health damage, and preferably less of it.
- Allow the code to discern between types of mounts/terrain. Falling off a war beetle onto sand would not be the same as falling off an inix onto jagged rocks.
- Do away with the feature and just give characters a bonus to ride if they are following a skilled rider. This is a common practice in real-life riding training. An animal will be more comfortable following another member of its own species that is being ridden by a skilled rider than if it is being ridden alone by an unskilled one.
- Do away with the feature.
Dude, it's not that bad.
You don't have to have "near maxed" ride to stop falling. In fact, you can have a pretty lousy ride skill and not fall anymore at all, even in the roughest terrain, if you ride with both hands free.
Stop overreacting and practice the damn skill already. Or hire a -real- rider (rangers only need apply) to teach your n00bz how to do it right.
Quote from: Synthesis on January 24, 2010, 02:55:23 AM
Dude, it's not that bad.
You don't have to have "near maxed" ride to stop falling. In fact, you can have a pretty lousy ride skill and not fall anymore at all, even in the roughest terrain, if you ride with both hands free.
Stop overreacting and practice the damn skill already. Or hire a -real- rider (rangers only need apply) to teach your n00bz how to do it right.
Seconded, I've had guilds/races that don't even have the ride skill able to ride pretty safely after a few days played with normal trips out.
Just don't bitch if you're going across Rocky Barrens, which is just that, lots of rocks and shit you have to climb, and you fall off your inix.
It is disproportionate to the old system when it comes to the general difficulty, so unless increased difficulty was part of the intended package then yeah, dude, it's that bad. At the time of the transition, I had a character whose ride skill was high enough to virtually never have their mount refuse to move. It would happen very rarely while riding armed in a sandstorm. After the change went in, that same character started falling off at least once in every trip of any considerable length. It happened twice in a row a couple of times. It wasn't a huge deal because it was fairly rare and because the character was capable enough that a loss of 10-20 health wouldn't leave him fucked.
My next character was a half-elf assassin out of Red Storm. The first ride up to Allanak left him at does-not-look-well after the seven-room ride from the RS gate to the pillar. After some eight days played with moderately frequent riding, he would still fall off enough that off-road riding was generally not viable unless I did it on my way home where I could recover safely.
A more recent character was a ranger. Rangers' starting ride skill is high enough that they used to not get refused at all. After the code that took into account weather and speed went in, they would only get refused in sandstorms or while running off-road. Starting out, this ranger was not able to consistently ride 10-20 rooms without falling off.
I don't know where you get your information, but a "pretty lousy ride skill" does not make you immune to falling off. Also, the starting ride skill of guilds not specifically known for riding is so low that they
will fall off
every room until the skill has been trained. You can be exhausted and dying of thirst 10 rooms out in the desert and have a mount dropped on you, and you won't be able to ride back because the 10x health loss might kill you. I'm not exaggerating - an out of the box human pickpocket cannot ride off-road without falling off. I tested it. 15 rooms, fell off 15 times.
QuoteSeconded, I've had guilds/races that don't even have the ride skill able to ride pretty safely after a few days played with normal trips out.
And I've had the opposite - a character of a race specifically documented as being good riders who after a reasonable amount of time would still fall off with some regularity.
QuoteJust don't bitch if you're going across Rocky Barrens, which is just that, lots of rocks and shit you have to climb, and you fall off your inix.
I never mentioned any specific terrain, nor does the code do much to discern between it. You fall off plenty on gentle dunes or salt flats, and you take the same amount of damage regardless of where you are. I do appreciate your WoW-forum-esque manner of discussion, though.
I FAR prefer this system.
Yes, there are some things I find slightly annoying, but I usually play races with lower wis scores. And on the old system you could have a low wis PC who, after20 days play and at least 1.5 hours ride training for each day played, Yes, 30 hours riding STILL would get "refuses to move" 40% of the time. I had a HG with good wis and after 23 days played the fact that he would still fail 25% of the time was about 25% of the reason I stored him.
And the old way was FAR more then a miner annoyance in groups if you played a leader PC, which I have many times...twitch.
Stop ordering your Wis last or pick the right guild or sub.
QuoteI FAR prefer this system.
You said the exact opposite on page 2.
Quote from: Good Gortok on January 24, 2010, 03:16:16 AM
It is disproportionate to the old system when it comes to the general difficulty, so unless increased difficulty was part of the intended package then yeah, dude, it's that bad. At the time of the transition, I had a character whose ride skill was high enough to virtually never have their mount refuse to move. It would happen very rarely while riding armed in a sandstorm. After the change went in, that same character started falling off at least once in every trip of any considerable length. It happened twice in a row a couple of times. It wasn't a huge deal because it was fairly rare and because the character was capable enough that a loss of 10-20 health wouldn't leave him fucked.
My next character was a half-elf assassin out of Red Storm. The first ride up to Allanak left him at does-not-look-well after the seven-room ride from the RS gate to the pillar. After some eight days played with moderately frequent riding, he would still fall off enough that off-road riding was generally not viable unless I did it on my way home where I could recover safely.
A more recent character was a ranger. Rangers' starting ride skill is high enough that they used to not get refused at all. After the code that took into account weather and speed went in, they would only get refused in sandstorms or while running off-road. Starting out, this ranger was not able to consistently ride 10-20 rooms without falling off.
I don't know where you get your information, but a "pretty lousy ride skill" does not make you immune to falling off. Also, the starting ride skill of guilds not specifically known for riding is so low that they will fall off every room until the skill has been trained. You can be exhausted and dying of thirst 10 rooms out in the desert and have a mount dropped on you, and you won't be able to ride back because the 10x health loss might kill you. I'm not exaggerating - an out of the box human pickpocket cannot ride off-road without falling off. I tested it. 15 rooms, fell off 15 times.
QuoteSeconded, I've had guilds/races that don't even have the ride skill able to ride pretty safely after a few days played with normal trips out.
And I've had the opposite - a character of a race specifically documented as being good riders who after a reasonable amount of time would still fall off with some regularity.
QuoteJust don't bitch if you're going across Rocky Barrens, which is just that, lots of rocks and shit you have to climb, and you fall off your inix.
I never mentioned any specific terrain, nor does the code do much to discern between it. You fall off plenty on gentle dunes or salt flats. I do appreciate your WoW-forum-esque manner of discussion, though.
I think you're relatively unexperienced in this area of code, because where you ride definately DOES have a HUGE effect on how good you ride. I'm sorry if you don't like the blunt way I answered you.
You need to stop using made-up assumptions to back your own arguments. Dicussions do stay a lot more relevant when people stick to what is being said, rather than what would help their argument if it had been said and then pretending that it was.
I said it doesn't do much, and you still fall off plenty in any off-road terrain, whether it's these violently jagged rocks that people seem to think span the entire known world, or the flat dunes and plains that actually do make up the vast majority of Zalanthas.
QuoteQuote
I FAR prefer this system.
You said the exact opposite on page 2.
Actually, No, I was agreeing with the sentiment of things being added for annoyance purposes instead of actual game improvement.
In the case of the ride change, I do think the falling off mount needs massive tweeking, as I have stated before. drastically reduced chances of it happening even at low levels and a large increase to damage.
In my opinion, this one qualifies as that kind of thing. There's even two threads about it on the front page. I'm still waiting for anyone to justify the feature, both from a realism and playability point of view. The early game hindrance is too big, and the late game factor is barely there anyway as long-lived riders have never been affected much by riding failure.
Mail me a log (including timestamps please) of you moving about on your mounts where you are falling off your mount to the point of death. Please try and include how many hands were free and what speed your mount was going and what the terrain was.
I'm more than willing to work on this, but I need to see the evidence that it's really bad for new riders.
Quote from: Good Gortok on January 24, 2010, 03:56:21 AM
You need to stop using made-up assumptions to back your own arguments. Dicussions do stay a lot more relevant when people stick to what is being said, rather than what would help their argument if it had been said and then pretending that it was.
I said it doesn't do much, and you still fall off plenty in any off-road terrain, whether it's these violently jagged rocks that people seem to think span the entire known world, or the flat dunes and plains that actually do make up the vast majority of Zalanthas.
Dude, you patently, obviously,
prima facie have only the slightest clue about what you're talking about, or you're deliberately exaggerating to help plead your case.
When the code change went in, I was playing a non-ranger, non-mercenary with guild-maxed ride. The day of, I fell off a lot. I bug-repped it. Morgenes changed the code. After that, I fell off -once- while running through the most difficult terrain, while dual wielding (this is in 30 days' playing time after the code went in).
When that character died, I rolled another non-ranger, non-mercenary. I paid someone to give me a single 'ride' lesson. I don't know how much that helped, but after that I could walk down roads with my hands free and not fall off the mount. Running down the road still caused the mount to swerve and resist. So, I thought to myself, "I probably shouldn't try this in the desert, just yet." So what did I do? I rode sprint laps around Allanak until I didn't fall off anymore. It took me maybe 24-36 hours of play-time.
Point me at any other mundane skill in the game that can go from n00b to usable in 24-36 hours.
Actually, I've seen one instance of someone else who was given -two- ride lessons by my character, who was a hands-free mount-taming rangerly uber-rider, fall off his mount more or less every 3rd room. With one empty hand, riding off-road, in the "walk" movement speed. He had plenty of riding experience, but either he was a special app and asked for his ride skill to max out at "total suck," or something was seriously wrong with his riding skill. He -should've- been able to at least 5-6 rooms on rough terrain by that point without falling off.
I, personally, haven't experienced much trouble since the change went into effect. However, I also have ensured that all my characters since then, had a guild/subguild that came with ride on the starting skills list. I can only attest to the fact that yes, some people really -do- fall off that often, under "normal" circumstances, even after two coded "teach" commands of the skill and several weeks worth of practical use of the skill.
Quote from: Lizzie on January 24, 2010, 11:41:27 AM
Actually, I've seen one instance of someone else who was given -two- ride lessons by my character, who was a hands-free mount-taming rangerly uber-rider, fall off his mount more or less every 3rd room. With one empty hand, riding off-road, in the "walk" movement speed. He had plenty of riding experience, but either he was a special app and asked for his ride skill to max out at "total suck," or something was seriously wrong with his riding skill. He -should've- been able to at least 5-6 rooms on rough terrain by that point without falling off.
I, personally, haven't experienced much trouble since the change went into effect. However, I also have ensured that all my characters since then, had a guild/subguild that came with ride on the starting skills list. I can only attest to the fact that yes, some people really -do- fall off that often, under "normal" circumstances, even after two coded "teach" commands of the skill and several weeks worth of practical use of the skill.
Obviously he should've used two empty hands until he didn't fail at that anymore, then gone to riding with one empty hand.
Hmmm.
MY opinion on this has changed. I like it ass is, but some little blurb in the docs about how riding can be dangerous in the wastes if you're unskilled would go a long way for newbies.
Riding is fucked up. I suck at riding horses but ride them a lot and I've only fallen off once.
It'd be cool if there were a walk, run and trot for mounts. That would probably squash the problem. While walking it's impossible to fall off of a mount, but slower than walking for mounts is now. Trott would be between run and walk, Run would be as it is now. Add varying levels of success and failure to both for all sorts of things.
There is already a run for mounts. I don't think there's any need for a slightly faster speed than walk, really.
From what I've seen if you're going over easy terrain there isn't much likelihood of falling off. There is a hell of a lot of rough terrain in this game, and this will most likely be where your PCs are falling off. By easy terrain I mean road, flats and plains. Anything with any rocks or dunes would be considered tricky.
Quote from: Yam on June 30, 2010, 11:33:50 PM
Riding is fucked up. I suck at riding horses but ride them a lot and I've only fallen off once.
Horses have traction-granting fur when ridden bareback, and the barrel-shape of the chest allows for an easy grip for the knees/legs.
Inix have huge fucking armored shells that's about the size of the roof of a volkswagen bug, and provides relatively little in the way of traction.
It would be nice to see saddles of a sort that grant a bonus to not falling off and breaking your hip. This is the reason saddles were invented.
That, and, I suppose, not breaking your damn nuts on horse spine.
...Or you could just ride with empty hands and some riding gloves or something?
I've had a few characters since the changes to ride, and I've never had any one of them fall off more than five times until they got good enough to not fall off.
I don't really understand the frequency by which new characters fall of mounts at all. I took riding lessons when I was about 9 years old. By my third hour long lesson, I was jumping hurdles taller than I was. I've never once fallen off a horse.
When you consider that our characters probably rode mounts prior to us actually playing them, this just seems silly.
You have stirrups, which is kind of a big deal.
Then there's this whole thread. Which is not a big deal.
I'm going to have to argue against mali on these points.
First, truly large animals, if ridden without any type of gear, would not be ridden using a part of the animal that is plainly silly.
You don't ride an elephant trying to straddle the barrel, you ride on the back of the neck. I'm betting an inix would work the same way, in fact, all of the drawings on the matter agree.
Same for giant bugs, your not going to straddle the thickest portion of the animal.
Also, a horses hair actually makes it slicker. Most people in Zalanthas wear leather, go ahead and see what slides easier, leather on skin or leather on hair.
Oh, and when riding a horse bareback, the barrel shape actually makes it harder to hold on with your legs, which is why the best way to ride bareback is barefoot, so you can hook your feet behind the front legs at low speeds or at higher speeds actually pull them up into a more crouched position.
I agree with any posters that say falling off your mount after a few game hours of riding is stupid. It is. Also, as far as I know, the style mount has nothing to do with if you fall or not, so how does your arguement fit when your falling off something like a slow moving, barrel shaped and hairy ox? Or how about the two legged mounts?
BTW, I first started riding when I was about 6, it was 4 years before I used a saddle and stirrups and I never fell off. And believe me, a 6 year old on a draft horse is equal to an adult on an inix.
Quote from: X-D on July 01, 2010, 05:46:06 PM
And believe me, a 6 year old on a draft horse is equal to an adult on an inix.
...Because a draft horse totally has a bigass shell on its back.
Not to mention, I don't imagine most pack animals of Zalanthas being very graceful.
Big clumsy beasts of burden ftw!
Of course you ignored the rest of the post.
And when was the last time you saw a clumsy animal that was not ill?
IRL all beasts of burden are agile, many are used for certain things just because they are agile and sure footed, one of the reasons oxen are used on the plow is that they are actually less likely to break a leg in a hole then some other animals, ever watched bull riding...yup, them some clumsy animals there...oh wait...maybe I'm getting the definition wrong, twirling and bucking and spinning 3,000+ lbs is not clumsy. Of course we can assume that on zalanthus the rules of evolution do not apply right? Somehow clumsy animals manage to wurvive and flourish on rocky ground with holes all over...and all without having the ability to fight off predators.
For whatever god-awful reason, the GDB isn't letting me quote people. x-X
Erm, anyhow. Yeah....
I guess you got me there, X-D.
I'm glad you're such a good rider, X-D. Your character isn't.
True enough...but not for the reasons you think.
Personally, one of my LONG lived clan mates, that regularly rides, uses several tools to assist in riding, but still falls off quite often compared to what I think he should be. He rides one handed, and can navigate easily upon roads, and usually doesn't have problems normally, until you reach harder terrain with bad weather conditions, then he does fall off, at least once, if not more at a walking pace. I would hate to be his class counting on his ability to ride to navigate properly as a leader position in bad weather and If it isn't paved or at least flat with no obstructions they are screwed I would think, at running speed.
Sounds to me like they should hire some help.
I can pretty much guarantee the PC described in that anecdote has shitty agility, and is not a ranger. With good enough agility (easily within the human range, if you prioritize agility), you can ride with no hands using a certain item, and you'll almost never fall off, even running through very rough terrain. This is without any ride-boosting class or subclass.
If you have shitty agility, you're going to suck at things that require agility...like riding. Get over it.
Quote from: Synthesis on July 06, 2010, 09:48:51 PM
I can pretty much guarantee the PC described in that anecdote has shitty agility, and is not a ranger. With good enough agility (easily within the human range, if you prioritize agility), you can ride with no hands using a certain item, and you'll almost never fall off, even running through very rough terrain. This is without any ride-boosting class or subclass.
If you have shitty agility, you're going to suck at things that require agility...like riding. Get over it.
Yup, it's crap like this that made me realize how utterly and absolutely worthless the GDB is for anything other than checking staff announcements, which is what I'll go back to doing now.
Oh, and this gem:
Quote from: Armaddict on July 06, 2010, 09:42:40 PM
Sounds to me like they should hire some help.
And you've completely missed the point of this entire post. Thank you for your insight.
The point they're trying to make is that it should not require this level of agility. When I think of high agility I think of Bruce Lee in a fight. When I think of high agility I think of Ashitaka slicing arrows from the sky. What I don't think of is the inability to ride a mount with
nothing in
either hand and
still managing to fall off the thing, at a walking pace, when you lack "high" agility. It's completely ridiculous in a world where traveling atop a mount is, for the vast majority of people that do any traveling at all, the only way they can do it.
Quote from: drunkendwarf on July 06, 2010, 11:40:05 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on July 06, 2010, 09:48:51 PM
I can pretty much guarantee the PC described in that anecdote has shitty agility, and is not a ranger. With good enough agility (easily within the human range, if you prioritize agility), you can ride with no hands using a certain item, and you'll almost never fall off, even running through very rough terrain. This is without any ride-boosting class or subclass.
If you have shitty agility, you're going to suck at things that require agility...like riding. Get over it.
Yup, it's crap like this that made me realize how utterly and absolutely worthless the GDB is for anything other than checking staff announcements, which is what I'll go back to doing now.
Oh, and this gem:
Quote from: Armaddict on July 06, 2010, 09:42:40 PM
Sounds to me like they should hire some help.
And you've completely missed the point of this entire post. Thank you for your insight.
The point they're trying to make is that it should not require this level of agility. When I think of high agility I think of Bruce Lee in a fight. When I think of high agility I think of Ashitaka slicing arrows from the sky. What I don't think of is the inability to ride a mount with nothing in either hand and still managing to fall off the thing, at a walking pace, when you lack "high" agility. It's completely ridiculous in a world where traveling atop a mount is, for the vast majority of people that do any traveling at all, the only way they can do it.
When I think of flawless riding through a sandstorm on rough terrain, leading a group of other people through it, I think of Bruce Lee. I mean Madmartigan. I mean a ranger. That's the one.
I never said anything about flawless and I never said anything about a sandstorm.
There's a huge difference between struggling to get your mount to move and flat out falling off of it.
How many times, and how many different ways do I have to say it?
If you are falling off your mount, you either suck at riding or your agility is crap (or possibly one other factor that I've never paid close enough attention to to speak about with authority).
The way the skill is coded right now is FINE. I've had a warrior (with no ride-boosting subclass) who could ride everywhere dual wielding and only had maybe a 0.1% chance of falling off while running through rough terrain. I've had a ranger who could ride perfectly. I've had a magicker who could ride just FINE.
If you got a shitty roll, used agility as a dump-stat on your dwarf, or rolled a half-giant, it's not the code's fault. The code is reflecting the fact that you're a clumsy (or skill-less) bastard who should stick to paved thoroughfares. Perfect riding skill is not an inalienable right of all sentient humanoids.
QuotePerfect riding skill is not an inalienable right of all sentient humanoids.
Loved this. And you know it's big when me and Synthesis agree. XD
I agree with Synth, though, the current echo just kind of leaves you going 'wtf just happened'.
I explain it as a spooked mount, or a hole the mount stumbled in and it threw you, whatever.
Again, I never said anything about perfect riding.
My agility is listed as 'good' and I am not a half-giant. I cannot ride through anything remotely resembling rough terrain (i.e. - other than a road), with both hands empty without falling off my mount. It's ridiculous.
But let me stress again - I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT PERFECT RIDING.
There is a huge difference between struggling to get your mount to move (in the right direction) and being so inept at riding such that you fall off the animal.
And in closing, I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT PERFECT RIDING AND I HAVE YET TO BRING ANYTHING UP ABOUT THE WEATHER.
Yeah, there is a far cry from perfect riding to falling off your mount -at all-. I can see maybe...once in a while, in special circumstances, falling off your mount. Early on. But after even the most basic level of ride has passed, normal easy riding should not -ever- have a rider falling off. Then maybe only while riding quickly or in combat. And beyond a moderate level of skill, not at all unless trying to do it while your hands are full and/or in combat.
I don't know what you people are talking about. I had a human with only 'good' agility that never fell off a mount at any speed in any terrain and this character did plenty of travel.
Morgenes said very clearly that after some practice, with the right equipment, there should be no reason why anyone would fall off their mount with any regularity at all.
I would recommend to drunken dwarf that he get in touch with Morgenes, because there might be some bug in his character. Or, Morgenes might be able to look at his character and point out something missing, or something too much, or perhaps even something about the mount that isn't good.
Quote from: drunkendwarf on July 07, 2010, 01:18:24 AM
My agility is listed as 'good' and I am not a half-giant. I cannot ride through anything remotely resembling rough terrain (i.e. - other than a road), with both hands empty without falling off my mount. It's ridiculous.
I think "with both hands empty" and "rough terrain (i.e. - other than a road)" gives you the answer. Now that you can tell what your skill levels are, you'll probably note that you are not a "master" of riding.
(You may also note that you are not even "advanced.")
Skills and how they affect failure can always be tweaked, but the idea in making different guilds and subguilds better and worse at different skills is for the tradeoff. If you are not a guild or subguild that gets ride naturally, you are going to find that you probably need to stick to roads, or not have stuff in your hands, or use extra riding gear. Not every person in Zalanthas knows how to ride. Of those that do, few know how to ride well. Your character may not be the best at X or Y (in this case, riding is definitely one of these things), but he or she is good at something, somewhere out there.
Back to the point, though. Yes, there is a huge difference between struggling to get your mount to move or move in the right direction and being so inept at riding that you fall off the animal. In this case, the difference
is "not using both hands on the reins," "not using riding gear," and "getting out on nasty terrain that isn't a road." You have described the difference between the two, and you have traversed the space between point A and point B.
My mailbox is still open to people to submit logs of them falling off multiple times with both hands free while walking their mount (I'll even give you not on roads). I will be happy to investigate what is the situation with your character. That said, multiple posters here have pretty clearly spelled out the requirements to riding in rough situations.
would like to point out that as someone who has ridden horses since she was 4 years old and completed in both Saddelbred three-gaited and five-gaited disciplines..
-Anyone- can fall off a mount in the most mundane terrain ever. Three years ago I saw a rider who was the USHA rider of the year call off in a show ring at a trot...
Horses are not giant lizards.
Horses are not massive bugs with domed shape backs with an awekward saddle.
Horses are not giant birds.
So horses are easier to ride.
Please stop bringing up horses.
Quote from: MeTekillot on July 08, 2010, 02:59:59 PM
Horses are not giant lizards.
Horses are not massive bugs with domed shape backs with an awekward saddle.
Horses are not giant birds.
So horses are easier to ride.
Please stop bringing up horses.
This is known as invalid logic. The premises are true but the conclusion does not follow from them.
I'm not saying this to flame, rather, I wouldn't want people to mistake this for a valid logical statement...it is not.
Quote from: Bilanthri on July 08, 2010, 03:13:21 PM
Quote from: MeTekillot on July 08, 2010, 02:59:59 PM
Horses are not giant lizards.
Horses are not massive bugs with domed shape backs with an awekward saddle.
Horses are not giant birds.
So horses are easier to ride.
Please stop bringing up horses.
This is known as invalid logic. The premises are true but the conclusion does not follow from them.
I'm not saying this to flame, rather, I wouldn't want people to mistake this for a valid logical statement...it is not.
Considering even the different structure of the vertebrae, and leg mechanics. Yeah. Not being a horse is valid.
Quote from: Armaddict on July 08, 2010, 03:14:03 PM
Quote from: Bilanthri on July 08, 2010, 03:13:21 PM
Quote from: MeTekillot on July 08, 2010, 02:59:59 PM
Horses are not giant lizards.
Horses are not massive bugs with domed shape backs with an awekward saddle.
Horses are not giant birds.
So horses are easier to ride.
Please stop bringing up horses.
This is known as invalid logic. The premises are true but the conclusion does not follow from them.
I'm not saying this to flame, rather, I wouldn't want people to mistake this for a valid logical statement...it is not.
Considering even the different structure of the vertebrae, and leg mechanics. Yeah. Not being a horse is valid.
Perhaps you misunderstand me.
You could certainly construct a valid logical statement using the premises outlined. And you could use the same conclusion. But there is a great deal of conditional information left out. Stating that horses are easier to ride because they are not bugs, birds, or lizards is not valid logic.
Easier for who? An earth human or a zalanthan human?
Are birds, bugs, and lizards the hardest animals to ride? Then, by process of elimination, horses would be easier to ride.
If A is true and B is true then it follows that C is true.
If you want to discount a topic of discussion, valid logic is worth more than water.
Actually, Armaddict, the only logic that follows from those premises is that it is different to ride giant birds, bugs or lizards with domed shells, not that it is easier to ride horses than it is to ride these creatures.
I still believe that people expect too much of their characters in these situations and that these people may just be having bad luck. I think there's nothing wrong with the code so far that I have seen. Perhaps I've just been lucky? Well, from what it seems of Morg's opinions on this topic, probably doing just as expected.
Quote from: Bilanthri on July 08, 2010, 03:30:20 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on July 08, 2010, 03:14:03 PM
Quote from: Bilanthri on July 08, 2010, 03:13:21 PM
Quote from: MeTekillot on July 08, 2010, 02:59:59 PM
Horses are not giant lizards.
Horses are not massive bugs with domed shape backs with an awekward saddle.
Horses are not giant birds.
So horses are easier to ride.
Please stop bringing up horses.
This is known as invalid logic. The premises are true but the conclusion does not follow from them.
I'm not saying this to flame, rather, I wouldn't want people to mistake this for a valid logical statement...it is not.
Considering even the different structure of the vertebrae, and leg mechanics. Yeah. Not being a horse is valid.
Perhaps you misunderstand me.
You could certainly construct a valid logical statement using the premises outlined. And you could use the same conclusion. But there is a great deal of conditional information left out. Stating that horses are easier to ride because they are not bugs, birds, or lizards is not valid logic.
Easier for who? An earth human or a zalanthan human?
Are birds, bugs, and lizards the hardest animals to ride? Then, by process of elimination, horses would be easier to ride.
If A is true and B is true then it follows that C is true.
If you want to discount a topic of discussion, valid logic is worth more than water.
Sometimes when reading through the posts on the GDB I think some people take the whole reality factor to an extreme..
I didn't bring up horses comparing them to lizards, birds, giant magical snakes or whatever weird stuff you can ride IG...
The point was, no matter how good of a rider you are, you, at somepoint, will fall off / get thrown. Regardless of skill. Be it on a thin trail or in a flat show ring. To think you're a master at anything and still expect to never fail or a have a bad day, is absurd.
QuoteActually, Armaddict, the only logic that follows from those premises is that it is different to ride giant birds, bugs or lizards with domed shells, not that it is easier to ride horses than it is to ride these creatures.
Well. That was really the only point I was trying to make. -I've- never ridden a giant lizard or bug, I don't know if it's harder or easier. But I -was- saying that arguments based on horseback riding had little to do with it.
Quote from: Armaddict on July 09, 2010, 12:37:53 PM
QuoteActually, Armaddict, the only logic that follows from those premises is that it is different to ride giant birds, bugs or lizards with domed shells, not that it is easier to ride horses than it is to ride these creatures.
Well. That was really the only point I was trying to make. -I've- never ridden a giant lizard or bug, I don't know if it's harder or easier. But I -was- saying that arguments based on horseback riding had little to do with it.
Physics, I humbly believe, also has something to do with it.
Horses are easy to grip with the legs because of the shape of the back and the relative proportions of the ribcage to the flexibility of the human leg structure.
No where in Zalanthan documentation does it say that humans get an extra knee which creates an extra length of gripping appendage to shape around a wide shell.
Also, horses are coated in coarse fur. Coarse fur creates traction.
Inix and war beetles are coated in not-fur. They are coated in (maybe not shiny) domed (descriptions state this on both) armored shells, which do not have adequate grip points or shapes.
(http://www.pathguy.com/athasian_carriers.jpg)
They don't look that hard to ride.
Well, maybe the Mekillot.
Quote from: MeTekillot on July 08, 2010, 02:59:59 PM
Horses are not giant lizards.
Horses are not massive bugs with domed shape backs with an awekward(SIC) saddle.
Horses are not giant birds.
So horses are easier to ride.
Please stop bringing up horses.
I think that he's using horses as an example because it's the nearest real-world equivalent to something like an inix. At the end of the day, that's the best comparison anyone here can make.
Also, I tend to assume that our mounts have virtual saddle and virtual stirrups, in the same way that they eat virtual food, get infected with virtual flees and until recently took virtual dumps.*
I'm not trying to jump in on drunkendwarf's side...although I can sense his frustration because he thinks that the rest of us don't understand his point.
For what it's worth, I grew up watching cowboy movies. In the movies cowboys always made fun of "city folk" or anyone with poor riding skill. Based on this, I always assumed that riding is something super difficult and masculating, requiring years of practice. However when I actually went out and took some riding lessons, I was startled at how easy it is. Within minutes of my first lesson, I was riding a horse. Within hours, I was riding a horse with ease.
By the end of the first day, I was riding comfortably over broken ground. On the second day, my riding instructor assigned me a "spirited" horse, warning me that the animal would attempt to misbehave. Hah! A couple of sharp kicks to his ribs put an end to that. He was a nice enough stallion once you got to know him.
Soon enough I was able to trot the bastard, and by the end of the first week I was able to trot without using my hands. I never did see anyone fall off of one of the horses.
Keep in mind that I'm a pudgy, middle-aged computer geek with poor hand eye coordination and no inherent rapport with animals. Horse riding is just really that easy.
Some posters have brought up that other animals (like the fictional inix) are more difficult to ride than a horse, but so are camels, elephants, ostirich, donkeys and alpalca, and people ride them just fine when they put their minds to it.
*Is this not correct?
One thing I would like to see is that mounts following others in a group are easier to control (provided all they're doing is following the lead animal) than mounts that are not following a lead animal - though I suppose this depends entirely on the sort of mount, and whether or not they're herd mentality. Lizards and insects (with the exception of kanks?) are probably less likely to follow others around docilely. Ox would, though.
Quote from: Wolfsong on July 10, 2010, 03:00:09 AM
One thing I would like to see is that mounts following others in a group are easier to control (provided all they're doing is following the lead animal) than mounts that are not following a lead animal - though I suppose this depends entirely on the sort of mount, and whether or not they're herd mentality. Lizards and insects (with the exception of kanks?) are probably less likely to follow others around docilely. Ox would, though.
I certainly wouldn't mind giving people more of a reason to buy anything other than an inix or a beetle....
Mounts that are more rider-friendly than others would -definitely- be cool.
Quote from: Armaddict on July 10, 2010, 03:58:35 AM
Mounts that are more rider-friendly than others would -definitely- be cool.
I don't have any solid data, but I'm inclined to believe that this is already the case.
Quote from: Synthesis on July 10, 2010, 11:21:28 AM
Quote from: Armaddict on July 10, 2010, 03:58:35 AM
Mounts that are more rider-friendly than others would -definitely- be cool.
I don't have any solid data, but I'm inclined to believe that this is already the case.
Of course...then this thread would be about it being unfair that it's easier to ride something with less stamina...
Quote from: Armaddict on July 10, 2010, 12:31:10 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on July 10, 2010, 11:21:28 AM
Quote from: Armaddict on July 10, 2010, 03:58:35 AM
Mounts that are more rider-friendly than others would -definitely- be cool.
I don't have any solid data, but I'm inclined to believe that this is already the case.
Of course...then this thread would be about it being unfair that it's easier to ride something with less stamina...
Actually...well...try it for yourselves, and draw your own conclusions.
1. Has anyone considered the fact that maybe Zalathan's have very poor balance?
2. If everyone has that big of a deal with falling off... why not just change the echo to: X beast, bucks you off.