So, A hunter can go out and practice his skill on all the coded wildlife out there, but if you're clanned, and limited to the city, and often play off-peak where no one is around to train your soldiers skills up, You're pretty much left dead in the silt when it comes to skill progression.
I propose sparring dummies have the ability for limited skill gain using combat code, or archery. As it is you can never fail to hit a dummy, therefore never get any better. I don't really know how to implement this, but I'm sure a workaround could be made.
I know everyone thinks this would end in everyone twinking their offense and defense skills, but I think over-training should be considered abuse just like over-hunting, and subject to the same punishments.Check out Synth's Idea!
Quote from: Synthesis on November 28, 2009, 01:33:43 PM
You know, with the new disengage command in, it wouldn't be difficult to have actual sparring NPCs that appeared during appropriate sparring periods.
Add a 'talk sparring' script to it, give it decent (but not uber) skills, and have it automatically disengage when its target is wounded to a certain point, or flee when it's wounded to a certain point.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on November 28, 2009, 11:30:12 AM
So, A hunter can go out and practice his skill on all the coded wildlife out there, but if you're clanned, and limited to the city, and often play off-peak where no one is around to train your soldiers skills up, You're pretty much left dead in the silt when it comes to skill progression.
I propose sparring dummies have the ability for limited skill gain using combat code, or archery. As it is you can never fail to hit a dummy, therefore never get any better. I don't really know how to implement this, but I'm sure a workaround could be made.
I know everyone thinks this would end in everyone twinking their offense and defense skills, but I think over-training should be considered abuse just like over-hunting, and subject to the same punishments.
All you'd have to do is code the dummies with an increased agility and/or base defense, and people would be able to miss them.
That being said: have you ever actually tried firing an arrow at a training dummy? You might be surprised at the results.
QuoteThat being said: have you ever actually tried firing an arrow at a training dummy? You might be surprised at the results.
Other then a staffer coming and eating your face?
Every clan I've played that has them states very specific things to not do.
Quote from: X-D on November 28, 2009, 12:05:29 PM
QuoteThat being said: have you ever actually tried firing an arrow at a training dummy? You might be surprised at the results.
Other then a staffer coming and eating your face?
Every clan I've played that has them states very specific things to not do.
Pretty sure the last word I heard on this is that We Think It Causes Problems With a Script.
Archery seems stupid-impossible to practice for people who don't hunt. Rather like backstab, I suppose.
This is a serious problem for most clanned players and, as mentioned, especially off-peak. It gets to the point where being a soldier is by far the slowest way to become a skilled combatant, whereas someone prowling the rinth or hunting hawks will improve multiple times faster than the guy sitting around in the militia barracks or the Tor academy. Sparring dummies are pitifully insufficient as a means to provide training because they don't strike back and because you almost can't miss them even with a warrior or ranger right out of the box. Maybe you can improve your offense/weapon a few points and that's it.
Our sister-RPI has sparring NPCs in most clans that are meant to provide combat training. Anyone in the clan can simply spar with the NPCs if noone is around, and everything is fine as long as you're being reasonable about it. I've never heard of anyone using it too much or having it taken away due to abuse. This, of course, would not work on Armageddon for two reasons:
1) Here we have to fight tooth and nail to prevent twinking due to the mentality that the game fosters. Playing Arm for any length of time will give most players an ingrained instinct to push the code to the max, even at the expense of realism, and this is because the rules span the limits of the code and not the limits of realism. If it's possible, it's allowed. If it's possible, people will do it. This is why you can at any given time find half a dozen random commoner NPCs dead in Allanak or Tuluk, or twice as many in the much smaller rinth.
2) Armageddon's health system allows you to recover from near-death experiences in a matter of minutes. This feature is always fiercely defended as a playability compromise, although it seems common knowledge that ICly recovering from poor condition in the time it takes to sleep full is considered twinkish. I don't know why it's still possible, but the fact that it is rules out any automated venues of training as people could literally spar constantly all day with minimal downtime.
This is why the most we can get is a sparring dummy that doesn't do a damn thing.
Pretty thin argument, if you ask me.
You know, with the new disengage command in, it wouldn't be difficult to have actual sparring NPCs that appeared during appropriate sparring periods.
Add a 'talk sparring' script to it, give it decent (but not uber) skills, and have it automatically disengage when its target is wounded to a certain point, or flee when it's wounded to a certain point.
I like that....
Quote from: Good Gortok on November 28, 2009, 12:17:00 PM
This is why you can at any given time find half a dozen random commoner NPCs dead in Allanak or Tuluk, or twice as many in the much smaller rinth.
I have not seen this.
While I think Good Gortok's ideas are both strange and inaccurate, I can agree that you will not see a sparring dummy that is useful to improve your skills.
However, good RP with a sparring dummy, logged, and sent in using the request tool can see a skill bump.
Quote
However, good RP with a sparring dummy, logged, and sent in using the request tool can see a skill bump.
This is tedious and more work on staff and players than a coded solution.
Quote from: Olgaris on November 28, 2009, 02:43:23 PM
I can agree that you will not see a sparring dummy that is useful to improve your skills.
How about sparing npc's?
Quote from: Synthesis on November 28, 2009, 01:33:43 PM
You know, with the new disengage command in, it wouldn't be difficult to have actual sparring NPCs that appeared during appropriate sparring periods.
Add a 'talk sparring' script to it, give it decent (but not uber) skills, and have it automatically disengage when its target is wounded to a certain point, or flee when it's wounded to a certain point.
I think one thing that could be done for the off-peakers is to build upon the new clan-pay code and introduce virtual training for the clans where this makes sense to have.
If a PC is in a clan where they should be trained in combat as part of their job, then why not allow for a virtual clan-training script much like the clan-pay code? It could be at a very low-level, ie. you get one skill point per IC month, or IC year, or whatever interval of time, so long as your PC hasn't actually earned the skill increase by other means. In other words, the off-peakers who don't have any opportunity to train with their fellow PC clanmates, or be taught by their PC leaders, should be considered to be virtually trained by the clan VNPC's. These off-peak PC's, while potentially spending just as much time in these clans as peak PC's, just don't have the same opportunity to improve their characters for entirely OOC reasons, which in no way match what's going on IC. And this just leads to situations that make zero sense: "That's right, I've been in the Legions for years." *gets crap kicked out of them by a month-in trainee.* "Uhh, I just had an off day. Yeah.. that's it."
For those of you worried about abuse, you could also put a cap on this type of virtual training, again to whatever level makes sense.
This doesn't necessarily have to be limited to combat clans either, but it is for combat clans that this problem is most acute.
I kind of agree with this idea, mostly because I've been in clans where you sometimes don't -get- to have PC-PC sparring or training for upwards of a RL week. I understand its "not about code" and blah blah blah, but you've got to understand, some people just don't get the opportunity to advance codedly realistically.
Sure, you could RP out 5 training sessions that each take a RL hour, and send them in to get a 1% bump in skill if you're lucky. And thats if your RP is deemed worthy, AND if the staff believes you deserve the bump. There's a lot of factors in asking for skills/skill bumps. If your character is in the Byn, during a time when there are literally -zero- other PCs to train with, what do you do? Sit around for a year in bars? Spend your mornings in a training hall with a custom ldesc? I'd rather -play- the game, than simply exist in it (which is apparently what I do now)
Quote from: Olgaris on November 28, 2009, 02:43:23 PM
However, good RP with a sparring dummy, logged, and sent in using the request tool can see a skill bump result in you being told that staff doesn't give skill boosts to skills that can be improvded codedly, thus wasting your time.
Sorry Olgaris, my personal experience begged me to fix that.
You can miss sparring dummies in their current incarnation, if your skills are low enough. I've done it on multiple characters.
Not that I think they're great, but it can happen.
It wouldn't have to be a sparring dummy. There could be an NPC that "understands" how to spar, one that wields a sparring weapon, disengages if the opponent gets too beaten up and flees if the opponent doesn't break after it indicates it's done. It would come and go according to the clan's training schedule too.
The sparring NPC wouldn't be all that tough, so returns on sparring with it would diminish past a certain basic skill level. Since its level of skill would remain constant, PCs might have more of a sense of progress than they do sparring each other too.
How would it different from sparring with a PC, really?
The biggest argument against this, I would think, is it would give people -more- of a reason to not leave compounds as they could just spar with the dummy.
The biggest argument against -that-, is that each clan has a schedule for a reason, and anything that keeps people on that schedule is A OK in my book.
I don't necessarily want improved sparring dummies or automated skill bumps, but I wonder if the issue of restrictive clan rules plus off-peak player (or empty clan) needs more of a solution than a case-by-case evaluation of roleplay logs. To me, that approach works great for exceptional situations, but if the problem is more widespread (I don't know, is it?), then I'd prefer to see it addressed some other way. Ideally, I mean. I'm a dreamer.
In many clan compounds, the sparring dummies are only set out for a couple hours a day, anyway. From an abuse perspective, sparring NPCs seem pretty harmless.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on November 28, 2009, 11:21:43 PM
In many clan compounds, the sparring dummies are only set out for a couple hours a day, anyway. From an abuse perspective, sparring NPCs seem pretty harmless.
+1. I really don't think sparring NPC's would be a bad thing at all. Quite the opposite, they would reward folks who are spending time online, following their clan's rigid training schedule with the IC expectation that such people who devote their days to training for war might actually be better at fighting than say ... a hunter who kills scrab.
Right now all a recruit level PC on a training schedule is doing (if alone) is solo-RP'ing for naught while indie characters can go bash mobs in the wild for skill gain.
+1 to having a sparring NPC so that off-peakers or those playing in underpopulated clans can feel like they're not totally wasting their time.
I never thought I'd say this, but I have to agree on this one.
Downside: and you thought the staff got mad when we used DUMMIES for archery/throw/backstab/charge practice...
Quote from: brytta.leofa on November 28, 2009, 11:41:21 PM
Downside: and you thought the staff got mad when we used DUMMIES for archery/throw/backstab/charge practice...
lulz
They only got mad when the sparring dummy chases you around the sparring halls.
Quote from: Delstro on November 29, 2009, 12:27:57 AM
They only got mad when the sparring dummy chases you around the sparring halls.
Seconded. I don't really see the problem with a sparring dummy that allowed skill gain of all skills. I mean - if skills are truly time sensitive, then my time with dummy is no better/worse then my time with a PC and if there are no PCs in my clan - well - what is the big?
Well that was a good one guys. Concluded that idea. We'll send it to the staff, gift-wrapped, on Christmas day. :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D
I'm with this idea. I'd add a few things.
#You can spar said NPC 1 time an IC day. He keeps track of this, and sets himself as no-kill for you thereafter.
#He operates on the same schedule as the training dummy.
#He will only take x-amount of HP damage to himself or you. After that, he becomes no kill.
#He will compare his skills to yours, and tone himself down or up appropriately.
With this in place, I would love to see a sparring NPC, by all means. This would help those old and new characters alike, by always have an appropriately talented partner. The limit of once a day should more than keep it from being twinked out.
I don't really see why your suggestions would be needed 7DV. I mean, as I understand it skills only increase once and then set a delay timer based on wisdom before they will go up again; and if the sparring NPC were to keep the same hours as the training dummy ... I believe that even sparring non-stop from the moment it came out to the moment it went in would only result in the same skill increase as doing it once anyway, right? So if the person wants to try and go for a few rounds instead of just one ... meh, let them.
And I would prefer he did not adjust his skill to yours for two reasons: One ... that might be hard to code for staff and thus make them less likely to implement the idea all together ... and two ... I would rather folks hoping to get their combat skills up from compentant to legendary go through the risks of fighting actually dangerous things, rather tha just becomming epic in the sparring ring.
I actually like the sparring NPC idea best, but in order to cut down on the potential abusability, perhaps combining it with a script where the NPC could only be summoned by the neglected trainee if you haven't sparred (ie. gotten a skill increase) in X amount of time might be one way to go. This procedurally generated NPC could also be tailored to the summoning PC as well: you could have it randomly pop an evenly matched NPC to have a fruitful sparring match, or a much more skilled NPC to not spar, but give a useful, scripted lesson to the PC.
Again, where is this potential abusability, and the subsequent need for really complicating scriting and or code, coming from?
So someone can non-stop spar from early morning to late morning every in game day ... ... sooooo what?
Quote from: musashi on November 29, 2009, 05:35:15 AM
Again, where is this potential abusability, and the subsequent need for really complicating scriting and or code, coming from?
So someone can non-stop spar from early morning to late morning every in game day ... ... sooooo what?
What this dude said.
Sparring dummies in most of the clans I've played in only spawn for very small windows of time. If the same spawn times were applied to training NPCs, I don't see how it could be abused aside from like... people gangbanging one and deciding to kill it. Which doesn't make much sense anyhow.
That would be an easy fix. Once it gets down to a certain level of HP, it "flees" and becomes a VNPC.
And, realistically, if someone tried to kill the NPC - Things would be handled very ICly. It'd be just like killing another PC in the same clan. Even if your "alone" with that NPC in the sparring area, your never actually "alone" from the VNPC population of recruits/soldiers training.
Staff?
Quote from: Spice Spice Baby on November 29, 2009, 06:00:16 AM
Quote from: musashi on November 29, 2009, 05:35:15 AM
Again, where is this potential abusability, and the subsequent need for really complicating scriting and or code, coming from?
So someone can non-stop spar from early morning to late morning every in game day ... ... sooooo what?
What this dude said.
Sparring dummies in most of the clans I've played in only spawn for very small windows of time. If the same spawn times were applied to training NPCs, I don't see how it could be abused aside from like... people gangbanging one and deciding to kill it. Which doesn't make much sense anyhow.
Seconded, I mean - forget all the complexities of NPCs - just increase the agility of a dummy so it's possible to miss them and make them hit back. Ie, make them bludgeon and throw out an emote like "the dummy's wooden arm swirls at you". Give them a club and a shield. Might need to make them invulnerable to disarm as well.
That would allow some level of training and if there are day caps, there is no real risk.
Quote from: Gunnerblaster on November 29, 2009, 02:24:37 PM
And, realistically, if someone tried to kill the NPC - Things would be handled very ICly. It'd be just like killing another PC in the same clan. Even if your "alone" with that NPC in the sparring area, your never actually "alone" from the VNPC population of recruits/soldiers training.
You'd be surprised.
I had a PC in the Byn. I was AFK during morning sparring - no other PC's were about. Newbie PC X comes in. Newbie PC X decides they want to spar my PC. Newbie PC X proceeds to attack my sitting, unarmed PC with sparring weapons. Newbie PC X decides this isn't fun, puts away their sparring weapons, and pulls out real weapons. Newbie PC X finally kills my PC after another 10-20 rounds of combat.
I asked for a resurrection after the fact, citing exactly your thoughts. Apparently things were handled IC'ly.. afterward. But that was little consolation to my dead PC, or to me.
Quote from: IntuitiveApathy on November 29, 2009, 04:00:30 PM
Quote from: Gunnerblaster on November 29, 2009, 02:24:37 PM
And, realistically, if someone tried to kill the NPC - Things would be handled very ICly. It'd be just like killing another PC in the same clan. Even if your "alone" with that NPC in the sparring area, your never actually "alone" from the VNPC population of recruits/soldiers training.
You'd be surprised.
I had a PC in the Byn. I was AFK during morning sparring - no other PC's were about. Newbie PC X comes in. Newbie PC X decides they want to spar my PC. Newbie PC X proceeds to attack my sitting, unarmed PC with sparring weapons. Newbie PC X decides this isn't fun, puts away their sparring weapons, and pulls out real weapons. Newbie PC X finally kills my PC after another 10-20 rounds of combat.
I asked for a resurrection after the fact, citing exactly your thoughts. Apparently things were handled IC'ly.. afterward. But that was little consolation to my dead PC, or to me.
I don't mean to Derail but that is a wee bit your fault. I mean, if it took that long for someone to kill your PC - you weren't really just "AFK" for a few moments. Would have been OOC wiser to just log out in a situation where you needed to be gone for that long. Many other PC's have been killed by Newbie PC or NPC while linkdead/AFK but they weren't given resurrections. The only case I see a resurrection being granted is when your killed because of a game glitch, which these days, is a rare occurrence.
Quote from: Gunnerblaster on November 29, 2009, 04:55:32 PM
Quote from: IntuitiveApathy on November 29, 2009, 04:00:30 PM
Quote from: Gunnerblaster on November 29, 2009, 02:24:37 PM
And, realistically, if someone tried to kill the NPC - Things would be handled very ICly. It'd be just like killing another PC in the same clan. Even if your "alone" with that NPC in the sparring area, your never actually "alone" from the VNPC population of recruits/soldiers training.
You'd be surprised.
I had a PC in the Byn. I was AFK during morning sparring - no other PC's were about. Newbie PC X comes in. Newbie PC X decides they want to spar my PC. Newbie PC X proceeds to attack my sitting, unarmed PC with sparring weapons. Newbie PC X decides this isn't fun, puts away their sparring weapons, and pulls out real weapons. Newbie PC X finally kills my PC after another 10-20 rounds of combat.
I asked for a resurrection after the fact, citing exactly your thoughts. Apparently things were handled IC'ly.. afterward. But that was little consolation to my dead PC, or to me.
I don't mean to Derail but that is a wee bit your fault. I mean, if it took that long for someone to kill your PC - you weren't really just "AFK" for a few moments. Would have been OOC wiser to just log out in a situation where you needed to be gone for that long. Many other PC's have been killed by Newbie PC or NPC while linkdead/AFK but they weren't given resurrections. The only case I see a resurrection being granted is when your killed because of a game glitch, which these days, is a rare occurrence.
I don't think there's anything wrong with expecting your own clannies not to kill your character inside the clan compound while you take a shower or go somewhere to pick up some food.... So I can't see how you can say it's in any way her/his (Damn your people and your not putting gender in your GDB profile) fault.
I agree, the npcs and vnpc's in your clan compound would have broken thigns up, killed the newbie, and you would have lived.
That deserves a res in my opinion. But not staffs.
I suppose those are good points, musashi. That said, I can't imagine getting the NPC trainer in game without similar restrictions. We have a tight-assed staff, and they don't let shit just wander out undigested.
Quote from: jmordetsky on November 29, 2009, 03:54:22 PM
Seconded, I mean - forget all the complexities of NPCs - just increase the agility of a dummy so it's possible to miss them and make them hit back. Ie, make them bludgeon and throw out an emote like "the dummy's wooden arm swirls at you".
In other words, effectively make the sparring dummy a NPC.
Quote from: Eyeball on November 29, 2009, 10:48:09 PM
Quote from: jmordetsky on November 29, 2009, 03:54:22 PM
Seconded, I mean - forget all the complexities of NPCs - just increase the agility of a dummy so it's possible to miss them and make them hit back. Ie, make them bludgeon and throw out an emote like "the dummy's wooden arm swirls at you".
In other words, effectively make the sparring dummy a NPC.
I would rather the dummy be changed to be a flesh and blood NPC rather than a dummy that somehow fights back ... just for the sake of my immersionz but, yeah, basically.
Yeh - I don't want my dummy fighting back - makes no sense.
Meh, I always thought sparring dummies were around for the sole purpose of 3 person training when you only have 2 pcs around.
Quote from: Rhyden on November 30, 2009, 12:36:36 AM
Meh, I always thought sparring dummies were around for the sole purpose of 3 person training when you only have 2 pcs around.
Basically. But the problem being stated here, apparently, is that people can't get -2- PCs around at once.
Quote from: Riev on November 30, 2009, 01:33:16 AM
Quote from: Rhyden on November 30, 2009, 12:36:36 AM
Meh, I always thought sparring dummies were around for the sole purpose of 3 person training when you only have 2 pcs around.
Basically. But the problem being stated here, apparently, is that people can't get -2- PCs around at once.
If you're in a clan with a sparring dummy and don't have 2 PCs, that's an entirely different problem altogether which I don't think can be solved by turning dummies into sparring vending machines.
Quote from: Rhyden on November 30, 2009, 01:37:49 AM
Quote from: Riev on November 30, 2009, 01:33:16 AM
Quote from: Rhyden on November 30, 2009, 12:36:36 AM
Meh, I always thought sparring dummies were around for the sole purpose of 3 person training when you only have 2 pcs around.
Basically. But the problem being stated here, apparently, is that people can't get -2- PCs around at once.
If you're in a clan with a sparring dummy and don't have 2 PCs, that's an entirely different problem altogether which I don't think can be solved by turning dummies into sparring vending machines.
People who play off peak are in this situation all the time, even if said clan has 20 active PCs who play during American prime time.
An off peak PC might want to still be a part of a the Byn, for example attend the RPT's and play with prime time folks on the weekends, but not forever be the newbie because when they log in on weekday evenings for them and go about the daily training schedules ... they have to do it solo.
Quote from: Rhyden on November 30, 2009, 01:37:49 AM
I don't think can be solved by turning dummies into sparring vending machines.
???
Thanks Mushmush, I'd have blew a ventricle trying to form a proper response.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on November 30, 2009, 02:40:33 AM
Quote from: Rhyden on November 30, 2009, 01:37:49 AM
I don't think can be solved by turning dummies into sparring vending machines.
???
Thanks Mushmush, I'd have blew a ventricle trying to form a proper response.
I definitely wish I had a sparing dummy that was more then a noise generator right now. I'm fairly off-peak.
Oddly enough, I call my son (who is actually named musashi) mushmush :D
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on November 30, 2009, 02:40:33 AM
Quote from: Rhyden on November 30, 2009, 01:37:49 AM
I don't think can be solved by turning dummies into sparring vending machines.
???
Thanks Mushmush, I'd have blew a ventricle trying to form a proper response.
It's not really that confusing.
You want sparring dummies to provide more experience to combat guilds, but I don't.
I think there's enough clans with enough pcs to spar one another, whether they be offpeak or not. I think sparring dummies work well as an RP device or like I said, the third member of a 2 pc drill that usually requires 3 pcs.
Otherwise, I think 2 pcs are all you should ever need to train in combat.
Actually, I believe we just want to be able to IC'ly improve our combat guild PC's skills without having to resort to OOC tactics thinly masked as IC ones in order to do so.
I think, that a Bynner/Fist/Legionarrie/AoD militia man who happens to play at a time of day, or even just a time in that clan's life cycle, when other clan-members are not often around, should not have to resort to hunting animals in the wastes or bashing mobs in the 'Rinth/UnderTuluk to codedly improve their combat skills. They should be able to codedly do that as part of their soldierly training regime, independant of whether or not they have clan mates around to facilitate them.
Just like a ranger can improve their hunting abilities independant of other PC's being around.
Just like a crafter can improve their crafting abilities independant of other PC's being around.
Just like a magicker can improve their magick abilities independant of other PC's being around.
Just like a burgular can improve their theiving abilities indepdanant of other PC's being around.
If other PC's -are- around, awesome! More RP and interaction to be had then!
Quote from: Rhyden on November 30, 2009, 03:14:46 AM
I think there's enough clans with enough pcs to spar one another, whether they be offpeak or not.
This is where we disagree.
You say "Enough clans" with enough pc's. It should be
all the clans with enough pc's. But it's not that. It's not even enough or even half. And arguing against that would be pretty silly. I -know- there isn't enough offpeak players in my current clan. How do I know? My pc is getting close to 3 days played, Ive sparred twice and and maybe had about 5-6 page-scroll length interactions with anyone on this pc. I haven't advanced anything codedly. Which with the schedule that most clans keep, It should be impossible for my PC not to show some sort of gain.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on November 28, 2009, 11:30:12 AM
So, A hunter can go out and practice his skill on all the coded wildlife out there, but if you're clanned, and limited to the city, and often play off-peak where no one is around to train your soldiers skills up, You're pretty much left dead in the silt when it comes to skill progression.
I propose sparring dummies have the ability for limited skill gain using combat code, or archery. As it is you can never fail to hit a dummy, therefore never get any better. I don't really know how to implement this, but I'm sure a workaround could be made.
I know everyone thinks this would end in everyone twinking their offense and defense skills, but I think over-training should be considered abuse just like over-hunting, and subject to the same punishments.
I rather like this idea. I think that twinking is not the threat that people suppose it to be. We should allow this.
There are other benefits to joining a clan than raising combat skills. The main benefit of joining the militia seems to be permission to act like a dick at all times anyways, not combat training.
If someone was an offpeak player, and this mattered a great deal to them, I would suggest they join a clan where you're not forbidden to leave the compound most of the time.
I love the Byn, but I am an offpeak player, so I've discovered it's best I don't play in it. Because the true fun of the Byn is when you can hang out with the same half dozen people in primetime every night. Not when it's just you cleaning the shithouse at 2 AM.
In any case, if you do join a clan, and there is at least one good combatant in it, which has his act together, (and there tends to be at least /1/ in most clans) you will advance plenty fast.
It gets to a point where you have to go pretty ridiculous lengths to keep getting marginally better on say, a verrin hawk or raptor. And it doesn't take long at all before most wildlife is less challenge than a training dummy.
However, veteran warriors and rangers tend to have built up their defense enough (as in 'help defense'), to where they are vastly better opponents than any wildlife. I've had a ranger leader PC whose defense was so high, that anyone in the clan could have maxed their weapon skill on him, if they survived long enough to keep showing up to morning training. Including warriors.
So I think things should be left as is.
So, your proposed solution for players who are off-peak in clans and have this issue, is to simply not join a clan? That really helps.
I can think of six skills, beyond weapon skills, that can be potentially worked on with a sparring dummy. That seems like a lot. Hoping for offense/defense or the defensive skills is a bit much IMHO.
So there's six skills that you can use on a dummy? Alright, wow, cool. Has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about.
The problem here is that off-peakers don't have a way to up their offense/defense. Not that they don't have enough ways to train skills on dummies... Did you read the thread?
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on November 30, 2009, 11:46:03 AM
So, your proposed solution for players who are off-peak in clans and have this issue, is to simply not join a clan? That really helps.
Nope.
My advice is to not join a clan that restricts you to a compound or that won't let you leave the city without supervision.
I am an offpeak player. I had to adapt as well.
It's also why I don't take on any leadership roles.
I get you've adapted, I have too. What about the other players who can't or don't want to? I'm trying to adapt the code so we don't have to. Is that skivvy enough for you? Your only argument against the idea is "play around the problem" Which isn't an argument at all.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on November 30, 2009, 05:55:53 PM
I get you've adapted, I have too. What about the other players who can't or don't want to? I'm trying to adapt the code so we don't have to. Is that skivvy enough for you? Your only argument against the idea is "play around the problem" Which isn't an argument at all.
Well. You have me there.
Though, I think newbies hardly need to worry about their defense and offense. Their biggest danger is getting bored from joining a small clan with noone online when they are, and then quitting.
It seems to me the only people who'd really worry about it, are veteran players, who could in fact, work around it. Say by spending a few days playtime as an independent.
As for those that ' won't ', well. Bugger them, I guess. Smarmy militia bastards.
Guess it doesn't really matter. I'm sure the staff have taken from this thread what they will.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on November 30, 2009, 06:07:03 PM
Guess it doesn't really matter. I'm sure the staff have taken from this thread what they will.
More or less, yeah. I certainly hope so since the only lasting disagreements anyone has been able muster agaist the idea have been: I don't play off-peak, and what isn't a problem for me isn't a problem for the game; or just kind of twink a little bit and get around it ... don't wory about staying true to the role you're playing so much, or the ever popular just don't play in clans if you don't play during peak play hours :-\
Wow.
I just made a character on SoI for shits and giggles, and it turns out they have a sparring NPC for the clan I started in.
Archery range, too.
I'm lookin' at you, Imms.
QuoteSo there's six skills that you can use on a dummy? Alright, wow, cool. Has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about.
The problem here is that off-peakers don't have a way to up their offense/defense. Not that they don't have enough ways to train skills on dummies... Did you read the thread?
Some people came to the thread with the idea that dummies are just "noise generators". Not so. Just because I was not addressing -your- point does not mean I didn't read the thread, or was not addressing other points in the thread.
Sparring dummies and NPCs would be, as far as I can tell given how the ideas are presented here, riskless. I object to learning skills like offense/defense in a riskless environment. With dummies, it makes absolutely no sense at all. The skills that you can learn do make some sense, as they are more focused on yourself, rather than your interaction with another, reacting being.
And your problem seems to be precisely "they don't have enough ways to train skills on dummies". You are just limiting yourself to being interested in two very specific skills. I say learn the skills you can learn on dummies and find a way to learn the others in other ways.
For every semi-interesting thing SoI might have that Arm doesn't, they have about twenty which I don't care much for. For example, skill progression is limited by your random attributes. It'd be like someone with good strength never being able to raise their blunt weapons to more than 50% (as a random example). They also have like half the active players at best, but somehow, are always in the top 10 on TMS...
QuoteI say learn the skills you can learn on dummies and find a way to learn the others in other ways.
I've already found another way. By coding in NPC's that are pretty centrally for sparring in certain clans. Do you understand the argument? Saying "find another way to train your skills" is simply circumventing the problem, and not addressing it. Other people have suggested making NPC sparring partners, and the topic certainly accelerated in that direction, until you went strait back to addressing the issue with Sparring dummies and god doesn't even knows why I'm typing anymore...
Quote from: Twilight on November 30, 2009, 07:03:27 PM
Just because I was not addressing -your- point does not mean I didn't read the thread, or was not addressing other points in the thread.
Quote from: Twilight on November 30, 2009, 05:25:53 PM
I can think of six skills, beyond weapon skills, that can be potentially worked on with a sparring dummy. That seems like a lot. Hoping for offense/defense or the defensive skills is a bit much IMHO.
You were addressing his point, remember? Now it seems like you're just trying to "move the target". That's annoying.
QuoteSparring dummies and NPCs would be, as far as I can tell given how the ideas are presented here, riskless. I object to learning skills like offense/defense in a riskless environment.
Would you care to explain how you feel an NPC who spars you with training weapons with mercy toggled on and a script to disengage you if said NPC reaches below a certain threshold of HP (while relying on YOU to disengage your own character if you're the one losing the match) ... would be any different at all risk-wise than what happens when you spar another PC in your clan? Where does this "riskless environment" that you object exist? It seems to me like you're either saying you object to people sparring in the relative safety of a clan compound all together ... or you just don't have a point.
QuoteWith dummies, it makes absolutely no sense at all. The skills that you can learn do make some sense, as they are more focused on yourself, rather than your interaction with another, reacting being.
No one is talking about making dummies fight back. We are talking about adding a drill sergeant-ish NPC or weaponsmaster NPC to fight back, so again ... what are you talking about?
QuoteAnd your problem seems to be precisely "they don't have enough ways to train skills on dummies". You are just limiting yourself to being interested in two very specific skills. I say learn the skills you can learn on dummies and find a way to learn the others in other ways.
Again again, we are not talking about the sparring dummies ... you are missing the point entirely. Sorry.
So ... seems to me like we are right back at:
Quote from: myselfthe only lasting disagreements anyone has been able muster against the idea have been: I don't play off-peak, and what isn't a problem for me isn't a problem for the game; or just kind of twink a little bit and get around it ... don't wory about staying true to the role you're playing so much, or the ever popular just don't play in clans if you don't play during peak play hours
The entire thread had started since I had last checked the GDB. I reserve the right to comment on any particular point in the thread, rather than just where it has evolved to (especially when it did so based on what seem to be some misconceptions around dummies). So take it as a comment on the entire thread and aspects of it to the time I posted.
As far as riskless, are you assuming the other person might not mean to kill you? That they might not get a little lag in their commands, or mess up with them, and inadvertently kill you? That they might forget to turn mercy off, or play in a style where they don't bother to use it at all? That they might turn out to be so damn good the first time you spar they inadvertently kill you, especially when combined with some of the previous factors? Those are always risks faced now in sparring. You are comparing something fraught with uncertainty (PC sparring) to something with potentially zero uncertainy as to what will happen if you understand the system on which it works. If you can transpose that same sort of uncertainty risk to the NPC, then you would be addressing my concerns around the seeming riskless aspect of an NPC.
My point, which you seem to be ignoring, is that we don't need NPCs. We have sparring dummies, which can be used to train a certain number of skills. If these skills don't match to what you were hoping for, that is too bad. We are lucky what we currently have can be used to train skills at all, because with the exception of a couple of those skills, I don't believe it was actually intended that we could.
The issue, as I see it, isn't over dummies or NPCs. These are potential solutions to the issue. It is about being able to realistically advance skills while alone, while (potentially) playing in a situation that is not allowing interaction with other PCs in order to do so. You have tried to narrow the argument to -specific- skills. You can advance several skills with what is currently there. That this is not the skills you want, I can appreciate, but based on previous staff posts on the topic, this seems to me intentional.
Quote from: Twilight on November 30, 2009, 08:56:55 PM
The entire thread had started since I had last checked the GDB. I reserve the right to comment on any particular point in the thread, rather than just where it has evolved to (especially when it did so based on what seem to be some misconceptions around dummies). So take it as a comment on the entire thread and aspects of it to the time I posted.
As far as riskless, are you assuming the other person might not mean to kill you? That they might not get a little lag in their commands, or mess up with them, and inadvertently kill you? That they might forget to turn mercy off, or play in a style where they don't bother to use it at all? That they might turn out to be so damn good the first time you spar they inadvertently kill you, especially when combined with some of the previous factors? Those are always risks faced now in sparring. You are comparing something fraught with uncertainty (PC sparring) to something with potentially zero uncertainy as to what will happen if you understand the system on which it works. If you can transpose that same sort of uncertainty risk to the NPC, then you would be addressing my concerns around the seeming riskless aspect of an NPC.
My point, which you seem to be ignoring, is that we don't need NPCs. We have sparring dummies, which can be used to train a certain number of skills. If these skills don't match to what you were hoping for, that is too bad. We are lucky what we currently have can be used to train skills at all, because with the exception of a couple of those skills, I don't believe it was actually intended that we could.
As far as the low risk of using NPCs, I agree with Twilight.
Quote from: Twilight on November 30, 2009, 08:56:55 PM
As far as riskless, are you assuming the other person might not mean to kill you? That they might not get a little lag in their commands, or mess up with them, and inadvertently kill you? That they might forget to turn mercy off, or play in a style where they don't bother to use it at all? That they might turn out to be so damn good the first time you spar they inadvertently kill you, especially when combined with some of the previous factors? Those are always risks faced now in sparring. You are comparing something fraught with uncertainty (PC sparring) to something with potentially zero uncertainy as to what will happen if you understand the system on which it works. If you can transpose that same sort of uncertainty risk to the NPC, then you would be addressing my concerns around the seeming riskless aspect of an NPC.
That bolded portion, all those things you listed, Those are all game flaws, glitches, and code-issues. You're telling me that you like them? You're glad they kill your characters, and annoy people, including newbies to the point of leaving the game? What the fuck? It's clear now we just differ in tastes.
Quote
My point, which you seem to be ignoring, is that we don't need NPCs. We have sparring dummies, which can be used to train a certain number of skills. If these skills don't match to what you were hoping for, that is too bad. We are lucky what we currently have can be used to train skills at all, because with the exception of a couple of those skills, I don't believe it was actually intended that we could.
I've not ignored the point. Simply acknowledged that you're the only person who holds this belief. That doesn't make it invalid. It just reeks of "If I don't think it's and issue it's not an issue and it doesn't need fixed."
Well, the thing is, you can't exactly have much interaction with an NPC.... You can't goad an NPC into a fight, you can't piss off an NPC to the point to where it wants to kill you, the NPC will do the exact same thing, every single time, no matter what.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on November 30, 2009, 09:06:42 PM
Quote from: Twilight on November 30, 2009, 08:56:55 PM
As far as riskless, are you assuming the other person might not mean to kill you? That they might not get a little lag in their commands, or mess up with them, and inadvertently kill you? That they might forget to turn mercy off, or play in a style where they don't bother to use it at all? That they might turn out to be so damn good the first time you spar they inadvertently kill you, especially when combined with some of the previous factors? Those are always risks faced now in sparring. You are comparing something fraught with uncertainty (PC sparring) to something with potentially zero uncertainy as to what will happen if you understand the system on which it works. If you can transpose that same sort of uncertainty risk to the NPC, then you would be addressing my concerns around the seeming riskless aspect of an NPC.
That bolded portion, all those things you listed, Those are all game flaws, glitches, and code-issues. You're telling me that you like them? You're glad they kill your characters, and annoy people, including newbies to the point of leaving the game? What the fuck? It's clear now we just differ in tastes.
No, you are wrong on the larger point. The point is, that there's risk when sparring with a PC. It is not all due to game flaws, glitches and code-issues. It is due to the chance that your opponent actually has the intent to kill you. Which is exactly the reason that whenever I remind people of "mercy on" (usually when playing with new players) I state "mercy on unless you want to kill someone," and I mean it. A training NPC would have mercy on and other scripts to keep it safe. I still like the idea of a training NPC, but it's true that it's almost zero-risk to use it, especially when compared to sparring with a PC that may have fuckery in mind.
Edited to add: Sorry, I basically just repeated what Qzzrbl said with a lot more text. Also, I can't help but notice how hostile some posters are getting, and I don't mean just in this thread. It's highly irritating. It's possible to have a discussion without the venom.
Straw man.
Quote from: Qzzrbl on November 30, 2009, 09:09:30 PM
Well, the thing is, you can't exactly have much interaction with an NPC.... You can't goad an NPC into a fight, you can't piss off an NPC to the point to where it wants to kill you, the NPC will do the exact same thing, every single time, no matter what.
Wish up.
I'm serious, if you want to goad an NPC into a fight, or piss them off to the point where they want to kill you, wish up. Staff will be more than happy to oblidge you. We have at least one off-peak staff member that I know of so, even if you play off peak you could still try to get your character killed during sparring if that really, really does it for you.
For the rest of us who are more concerned with just having a life of combat drills actually reflect some skill gain even though we play off-peak ...
Quote from: Twilight on November 30, 2009, 08:56:55 PM
They might not get a little lag in their commands, or mess up with them, and inadvertently kill you?
You still might get a little lag in your commands or mess them up be inadvertently killed, or inadvertently kill said sparring NPC. Remember, just because an NPC types disengage does not mean you have to type it back in kind. That's still up to you so if you get disconnected, lagged, or the like and fail to type that in, the fight goes on ... just like if you were fighting a PC.
QuoteThat they might forget to turn mercy off, or play in a style where they don't bother to use it at all?
A PC might, but this is a mistake nearly every single player I've ever seen goes out of their way to avoid. This is why people OOC: Make sure you have mercy on, unless you're trying to kill someone - before sparring. If accidently being killed by an honest OOC mistake on the part of another player is really something that you enjoy having in the game, then I'd be willing to compromise and say, have the sparring NPCs always have mercy off. That way you could still have your chance of being IC'ly killed by OOC complications ... since that appears to be really important for you.
QuoteThat they might turn out to be so damn good the first time you spar they inadvertently kill you, especially when combined with some of the previous factors?
How would a sparring NPC be any different? Random soldiers in the game have different levels of skills, they are not all cookie cut. One AoD NPC might kick your arse, while you wipe the floor with another. This is by design. The same goes with critters in the wild. Why can't the same go with sparring NPCs? Each time the NPC is loaded up in the early morning for use, it's stats and skills would differ from what they had been the day before. I feel that in a way, this would be more dangerous than when you square off against most PCs, because in the case of most PCs, after the first fight you have a general idea of where that PC's abilities stand, and the rate at which they're going to improve. Not so for generic NPCs. It's always a wildcard.
QuoteThose are always risks faced now in sparring. You are comparing something fraught with uncertainty (PC sparring) to something with potentially zero uncertainy as to what will happen if you understand the system on which it works. If you can transpose that same sort of uncertainty risk to the NPC, then you would be addressing my concerns around the seeming riskless aspect of an NPC.
Are your concerns addressed yet?
Quote
My point, which you seem to be ignoring, is that we don't need NPCs.
I'm not ignoring your point. I'm just asking you to back it up with something, and then I'm perfectly willing to address the things you back it up with and offer a counter arguement, like I just did above.
Hmmm.
Quote from: musashi on November 30, 2009, 09:12:42 PM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on November 30, 2009, 09:09:30 PM
Well, the thing is, you can't exactly have much interaction with an NPC.... You can't goad an NPC into a fight, you can't piss off an NPC to the point to where it wants to kill you, the NPC will do the exact same thing, every single time, no matter what.
Wish up.
But that's kind of the thing.... I'll never know if my PC's actions are pissing off another PC's, so I can't just wish up and say, "My guy's pissing off this NPC, make him try to kill me."
Not to mention sparring NPC deaths-- how would those be handled?
The same way as other clan NPC deaths. Really now. You're not even trying.
By simply have them respawn?
I really don't know how clan NPC deaths are usually treated. ;~;
They just respawn like other NPCs?
I remember in the Byn, twice I took people to negative hps in the second or so it took my to clear out my buffer of the text I was typing.
Now, if you are sparring a PC, it really doesn't freaking matter if that is due to a glitch, or my slow typing, or whatever. It is still a -risk-. The other person is still going to loose a character if things go badly. Although the causes might be OOC, the risk is IC. Sparring is dangerous. Show me the risk of your character dying isn't going to be lessened.
I like inherent danger in sparring. Although I like how disengage now works, I also think it has wimpified the danger in sparring a bit too much, unfortunately.
Quote from: Twilight on November 30, 2009, 09:23:41 PM
I remember in the Byn, twice I took people to negative hps in the second or so it took my to clear out my buffer of the text I was typing.
Now, if you are sparring a PC, it really doesn't freaking matter if that is due to a glitch, or my slow typing, or whatever. It is still a -risk-. The other person is still going to loose a character if things go badly. Although the causes might be OOC, the risk is IC. Sparring is dangerous. Show me the risk of your character dying isn't going to be lessened.
I like inherent danger in sparring. Although I like how disengage now works, I also think it has wimpified the danger in sparring a bit too much, unfortunately.
Harh, make the sparring NPC a half-giant.
My point is, you're just throwing up straw-man after straw-man. And now they're really kind of turning into hot-air-men, you know? Like the ones at car-dealerships that wave their arms around and dance because of the air in them? Well how am I supposed to attack the argument with all that frakkin dancing you're making those men do, you know? They're distracting! And then I start thinking things like, krath, should I buy a car? I could use 4 wheel drive. It's snowy in the winter in Flagstaff. That reminds me, I should buy a new coat.
Sorry I hit post way too soon in my last post, and actually meant to type a crap ton more. It's edited now, please scroll up and have a look.
EDIT: Actually ... here I'll just cut and paste it.
Quote from: Qzzrbl on November 30, 2009, 09:09:30 PM
Well, the thing is, you can't exactly have much interaction with an NPC.... You can't goad an NPC into a fight, you can't piss off an NPC to the point to where it wants to kill you, the NPC will do the exact same thing, every single time, no matter what.
Wish up.
I'm serious, if you want to goad an NPC into a fight, or piss them off to the point where they want to kill you, wish up. Staff will be more than happy to oblidge you. We have at least one off-peak staff member that I know of so, even if you play off peak you could still try to get your character killed during sparring if that really, really does it for you.
For the rest of us who are more concerned with just having a life of combat drills actually reflect some skill gain even though we play off-peak ...
Quote from: Twilight on November 30, 2009, 08:56:55 PM
They might not get a little lag in their commands, or mess up with them, and inadvertently kill you?
You still might get a little lag in your commands or mess them up be inadvertently killed, or inadvertently kill said sparring NPC. Remember, just because an NPC types disengage does not mean you have to type it back in kind. That's still up to you so if you get disconnected, lagged, or the like and fail to type that in, the fight goes on ... just like if you were fighting a PC.
QuoteThat they might forget to turn mercy off, or play in a style where they don't bother to use it at all?
A PC might, but this is a mistake nearly every single player I've ever seen goes out of their way to avoid. This is why people OOC: Make sure you have mercy on, unless you're trying to kill someone - before sparring. If accidently being killed by an honest OOC mistake on the part of another player is really something that you enjoy having in the game, then I'd be willing to compromise and say, have the sparring NPCs always have mercy off. That way you could still have your chance of being IC'ly killed by OOC complications ... since that appears to be really important for you.
QuoteThat they might turn out to be so damn good the first time you spar they inadvertently kill you, especially when combined with some of the previous factors?
How would a sparring NPC be any different? Random soldiers in the game have different levels of skills, they are not all cookie cut. One AoD NPC might kick your arse, while you wipe the floor with another. This is by design. The same goes with critters in the wild. Why can't the same go with sparring NPCs? Each time the NPC is loaded up in the early morning for use, it's stats and skills would differ from what they had been the day before. I feel that in a way, this would be more dangerous than when you square off against most PCs, because in the case of most PCs, after the first fight you have a general idea of where that PC's abilities stand, and the rate at which they're going to improve. Not so for generic NPCs. It's always a wildcard.
QuoteThose are always risks faced now in sparring. You are comparing something fraught with uncertainty (PC sparring) to something with potentially zero uncertainy as to what will happen if you understand the system on which it works. If you can transpose that same sort of uncertainty risk to the NPC, then you would be addressing my concerns around the seeming riskless aspect of an NPC.
Are your concerns addressed yet?
Quote
My point, which you seem to be ignoring, is that we don't need NPCs.
I'm not ignoring your point. I'm just asking you to back it up with something, and then I'm perfectly willing to address the things you back it up with and offer a counter arguement, like I just did above.
Yes, it would be nice if we had sparring dummies for not only offpeakers to train their melee and archery skills with.
But I think the main reasoning against it now is that there wouldn't be any risk factor like sparring another pc or fighting an npc.
So you would be getting better at dealing with risks in a no-risk environment. Essentially, it would be a sparring dummy vending machine (yeah, I said it again) because you go up to an inanimate object and take experience out of it. I don't like that. I think you won't see these kinds of sparring dummies around for the same reason you don't see npcs handing out quests with experience upon completion in Arm.
I also think there aren't sparring dummies around right now because staff want players to learn while interacting with other players, or interacting with the dangers in the wild with an element of risk. You can only get better when you fail. And if you have a sparring dummy handing out exp, you won't fail. I could make a warrior pc offpeak and spar this dummy for 10 ic years without interacting with one pc, and without a failure, then emerge as the holy doomslayer. No thanks.
I'm sticking to my belief that sparring dummies are here for rp, new players to learn combat commands, and 3 person sparring with 2 pcs.
I think this idea of risk in sparring is a little overwrought. Intentional deaths in sparring are mostly rare; unintentional deaths are mostly lame.
I am perfectly fine with things being in the following state:
If your PC works for a major organization in a combat-oriented role, he will train according to schedule, usually with someone decently competent, whenever you decide to log in and play.
Armageddon is not a PK competition. But if it were, people who play a lot (as in, this is their only hobby or extracurricular responsibility) seem to have a huge advantage. People who play during peak hours have a huge advantage. This doesn't break the game, but...you like it that way or you don't, I suppose.
Quote from: Rhyden on November 30, 2009, 11:56:58 PM
And if you have a sparring dummy handing out exp, you won't fail. I could make a warrior pc offpeak and spar this dummy for 10 ic years without interacting with one pc, and without a failure, then emerge as the holy doomslayer.
Only if Corporal Trainerdummy is himself the holy doomslayer. One simple variation might be to give "trainers" high offense and shield use, but low defense, such that they're mostly training people to Not Get Killed Out There.
I think the other available solution right now is if you are offpeak and you don't have anyone around usually, send in some logs of training with the dummy, exercising, or in general working out to your clan staff. If you are a somewhat long-lived character, I'm pretty sure staff may oblige.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on November 30, 2009, 09:29:06 PM
My point is, you're just throwing up straw-man after straw-man. And now they're really kind of turning into hot-air-men, you know? Like the ones at car-dealerships that wave their arms around and dance because of the air in them? Well how am I supposed to attack the argument with all that frakkin dancing you're making those men do, you know? They're distracting! And then I start thinking things like, krath, should I buy a car? I could use 4 wheel drive. It's snowy in the winter in Flagstaff. That reminds me, I should buy a new coat.
I'm honestly not trying to throw out strawmen or anything like that, I'm just stating my concerns about the implementation of an NPC that you can go to, and at absolutely no risk your character, train up skills.
While everybody else who isn't off-peak has to spar against other PCs with who the code often works in mysterious ways, at sometimes great risk to your character.
Sparring with a mediocre NPC will only get you mediocre skills.
I don't see what the problem is, even if it is "risk free" (which it isn't). What the fuck does "risk free" have to do with it, anyway? The whole "sparring other PCs in my highly-populated clan compound with a resident medic on staff while being supervised by virtual sergeants is RISKY!" argument never flew very fucking far, in my book.
Quote from: Synthesis on December 01, 2009, 12:33:53 AM
Sparring with a mediocre NPC will only get you mediocre skills.
I don't see what the problem is, even if it is "risk free" (which it isn't). What the fuck does "risk free" have to do with it, anyway?
Nobody's really agreed on the strength of the NPC, some suggested the NPC's adjusts to your character's level or whatever..... But with an auto-disengage/flee script and mercy stuck "on"-- it is pretty much risk-free.
The last thing I want is "Armageddon off-peak" to turn in to "Armageddon easy mode", and I believe implementing this would be a step in that direction.
But then again, I could be completely wrong. But from how it's being described so far, that's what I'm seeing.
Quote from: Rhyden on November 30, 2009, 11:56:58 PM
I also think there aren't sparring dummies around right now because staff want players to learn while interacting with other players, or interacting with the dangers in the wild with an element of risk. You can only get better when you fail. And if you have a sparring dummy handing out exp, you won't fail. I could make a warrior pc offpeak and spar this dummy for 10 ic years without interacting with one pc, and without a failure, then emerge as the holy doomslayer. No thanks.
Is this any different than if you get some awesome stats? I knew a few characters that trained my PCs in everything they knew.....and I still wasn't even half as good the teacher. Does this mean that my character should have been the holy doomslayer because they, theoretically, trained every IC day? If so, then maybe I should go back and complain.... ;D
Personally, I should think that if I'm Amos with AoD or Legion or Fist or Byn, I should know how to kick ass. It's what the character is paid to do......it's like asking a baker if he knows how to operate an oven....it's in the job desc. I'm all for NPCs that would slowly teach/cap at certain levels. Ok, so you go out, and a Mekillot eats you, that's acceptable....I mean really, how many times have you heard about the guy who single-handedly brought down a Mek? Going out as someones guard, and a Scrab get's them.....kinda weak.
The relative skill levels of the sparring NPC would directly correlate to the maximum skill gain you could achieve from it.
Once you are equal to the sparring NPC, you'll begin to injure it to the point where it would flee during the course of a fight, limiting the length of the fight, limiting your chances to get a skill gain, slowing your progress. Once you outmatch the sparring NPC, this is even more of a factor. Eventually, you will be able to massacre the NPC without ever being harmed, and without him ever causing you to fail your attack. At this point, it is no longer useful.
What is this point? Well, I think it should be the exact same point that PCs reach a plateau sparring against other mid-range PCs. A 20-day off-peak warrior in the AoD should have relatively the same skill levels as a 20-day peak warrior in the AoD. They have exactly the same training schedules and regimens. There's no reason one should be weaker.
The "risk" argument is bullshit. Sparring PCs presents no risk that can be legitimately explained in an entirely IC fashion, without resorting to highly questionable and remotely reasonable scenarios.
Quote from: Synthesis on December 01, 2009, 12:33:53 AM
Sparring with a mediocre NPC will only get you mediocre skills.
I don't see what the problem is, even if it is "risk free" (which it isn't). What the fuck does "risk free" have to do with it, anyway? The whole "sparring other PCs in my highly-populated clan compound with a resident medic on staff while being supervised by virtual sergeants is RISKY!" argument never flew very fucking far, in my book.
I should have been more clear. I think this risk mentality is only applicable when killing npcs in or outside of cities. My only beef is sparring an npc (the dummy) without any risk involved.
Pc-pc sparring isn't too risky, usually. The reason why npc training may be frowned upon, in my books, is because it lessens the pc-pc interaction. If you had dummies available for offpeak, they would be available to onpeak as well. I simply believe this would lessen the amount of interaction between players.
But if there is that little interaction on offpeak and said combat characters really do need to gain experience, I could -maybe- see a sparring dummy with minimal experience offered for melee/archery.
You can still send staff logs for now, but if this circumstance is less than rare, maybe we do need a coded solution.
I can understand this arguement, but the fact of the matter is, sometimes you need the NPC there for weaker PCs. If you have a person that you can send the new guy to to toughen him up, then you can focus on more advanced skills with the stronger warriors.
Quote from: Rhyden on December 01, 2009, 12:58:28 AM
Quote from: Synthesis on December 01, 2009, 12:33:53 AM
Sparring with a mediocre NPC will only get you mediocre skills.
I don't see what the problem is, even if it is "risk free" (which it isn't). What the fuck does "risk free" have to do with it, anyway? The whole "sparring other PCs in my highly-populated clan compound with a resident medic on staff while being supervised by virtual sergeants is RISKY!" argument never flew very fucking far, in my book.
I should have been more clear. I think this risk mentality is only applicable when killing npcs in or outside of cities. My only beef is sparring an npc (the dummy) without any risk involved.
Pc-pc sparring isn't too risky, usually. The reason why npc training may be frowned upon, in my books, is because it lessens the pc-pc interaction. If you had dummies available for offpeak, they would be available to onpeak as well. I simply believe this would lessen the amount of interaction between players.
But if there is that little interaction on offpeak and said combat characters really do need to gain experience, I could -maybe- see a sparring dummy with minimal experience offered for melee/archery.
You can still send staff logs for now, but if this circumstance is less than rare, maybe we do need a coded solution.
If an on-peaker is in a clan where they really don't have anyone else to spar during sparring time, why shouldn't they be able to use the goddamn NPC?
Why on earth would anyone use the NPC instead of another PC when another PC is available? This whole line of reasoning you're using isn't computing.
Quote from: Synthesis on December 01, 2009, 12:50:57 AM
The relative skill levels of the sparring NPC would directly correlate to the maximum skill gain you could achieve from it.
Once you are equal to the sparring NPC, you'll begin to injure it to the point where it would flee during the course of a fight, limiting the length of the fight, limiting your chances to get a skill gain, slowing your progress. Once you outmatch the sparring NPC, this is even more of a factor. Eventually, you will be able to massacre the NPC without ever being harmed, and without him ever causing you to fail your attack. At this point, it is no longer useful.
That would be cool.
Quote from: GagulaI can understand this arguement, but the fact of the matter is, sometimes you need the NPC there for weaker PCs. If you have a person that you can send the new guy to to toughen him up, then you can focus on more advanced skills with the stronger warriors.
This is true.
Quote from: SynthesisWhy on earth would anyone use the NPC instead of another PC when another PC is available? This whole line of reasoning you're using isn't computing.
I think I'm still picturing the present sparring dummy many times your size and weight that could likely kill characters if it fought back. If your ideal dummy idea above was implemented, I would be all for it. And I don't think it would lessen player interaction much.
I'm talking about a sparring NPC who would be a normal humanoid NPC wielding sparring weapons.
He would then have an additional script that would a) prevent him from outright killing anyone he's sparring; b) prevent his sparring partner from killing him; c) schedule him to appear during the clan's regularly scheduled sparring sessions.
Jeeze people just go fight oxen like all the other warriors do.
Synthesis's A and B are what I object to. I actually -liked- it before the change to disengage. There was a strategy and skill to sparring, especially when there was a disparity in PC skill levels. Wait states ended up in PC deaths. Yes, I liked that.
These days seem like sparring lite to me. Yes, I think people should die sparring, in heavily populated compounds, with medics on duty. There are lots of risky things not supported by the code, like a glancing blow to the head or infected wounds killing you days later. I view it as risk transferance to those code aspects that still have the outside chance of getting you killed in a sparring ring.
There isn't strategy to sparring now?
Trust me, there's a whole fucking lot of strategy to it. Especially if you're a shitload better than your recruits.
As far as people dying in sparring, that's just asinine. It's asinine every time someone brings it up. One of those hur-hur, look how hard we had it back in '99 arguments. I've had two PCs actually die in sparring, and there wasn't anything "cool" or "gritty" about it. Both were because of dual-club-wielding newbs who command-stacked six+ kick commands in a row before the disengage and stop commands were implemented. It was fucking retarded then, and sparring accidents are still fucking retarded, unless you happen to be the imbecile who's sparring a half-giant.
At least now half-giants can actually train their defense independent of their offense by disengaging, which by all rights they always should have been able to do.
This business about a NPC trainer eliminating risk sounds like a really weak argument to me.
There are a lot of skills that can be exercised without risk, to start with. A lot.
The rate of PC death by sparring must be something below 0.01%, too.
The NPC would only be useful up to a point. PCs couldn't turn into gods by sparring it, they'd just be able to acquire some minimal ability.
But fine, make it so that if the PC goes link dead and becomes injured, the NPC doesn't stop before killing the PC. Would that make you people happy? Because it seems that's exactly the sort of scenario that would based on what you've said, bizarre as that may be.
Oxen.
Quote from: Twilight on December 01, 2009, 02:05:25 AM
Synthesis's A and B are what I object to. I actually -liked- it before the change to disengage. There was a strategy and skill to sparring, especially when there was a disparity in PC skill levels. Wait states ended up in PC deaths. Yes, I liked that.
These days seem like sparring lite to me. Yes, I think people should die sparring, in heavily populated compounds, with medics on duty. There are lots of risky things not supported by the code, like a glancing blow to the head or infected wounds killing you days later. I view it as risk transferance to those code aspects that still have the outside chance of getting you killed in a sparring ring.
I feel decently safe in saying then, that you are the only person who feels that way. Not just in the game, but in reality in general. I served in the military for example. We trained with explosives, firearms, knives, polearms (bayonettes really but yeah), and all other manner of quite deadly activities if done in a real environment instead of a training one. Guess how folks I knew who died training in 4 years? None. Guess how many folks died in training Marine Corps WIDE in four years ... less than 50. 100,000 people plus ... over the course of 1,000 days plus ... less than 50 accidental training deaths world-wide. Safety works.
And that isn't just a modern miricle. If you go look at historical texts you will find that when the romans did training, they didn't lose many people to training excercises either.
You are perfectly entitled to your personal preferences, and if accidently dieing due to the code not being fleshed out enough to really represent reasonable expectations of reality just did it for you in a big way ... more power to you. But your personal preferences have no argumentative weight, and they are not congruent with reality or reasonable expectation ... both in the game and out of it.
I don't know what else to tell you.
More to Rhyden now:
I don't think anyone wants these NPC's to be able to max out the offense/defence/combat skills of anyone who spars them enough. I think all of us would rather just something to get low level folks up to the mid-level expected of someone who trains regularly in a militia clan. Here, let me quote myself from an earlier post in this thread to show you that you and I are in agreement on this issue.
Quote from: musashi on November 29, 2009, 03:05:22 AM
I don't really see why your suggestions would be needed 7DV. I mean, as I understand it skills only increase once and then set a delay timer based on wisdom before they will go up again; and if the sparring NPC were to keep the same hours as the training dummy ... I believe that even sparring non-stop from the moment it came out to the moment it went in would only result in the same skill increase as doing it once anyway, right? So if the person wants to try and go for a few rounds instead of just one ... meh, let them.
And I would prefer he did not adjust his skill to yours for two reasons: One ... that might be hard to code for staff and thus make them less likely to implement the idea all together ... and two ... I would rather folks hoping to get their combat skills up from compentant to legendary go through the risks of fighting actually dangerous things, rather tha just becomming epic in the sparring ring.
Oxen.
Quote from: Eyeball on December 01, 2009, 02:24:19 AM
The rate of PC death by sparring must be something below 0.01%, too.
Or this 0.01% chance could actually be coded into the script to spawn a freak NPC to facilitate a freak sparring accident to satisfy the no-risk crowd.
> ask trainer train
(fanfare!)
Congratulations Amos, you've just won the Armageddon Sparring Lottery!
*beep*
Welcome to Armageddon!
-mantishead-
To the "this might be hard for staff to code" sorts, a quote from Xygax:
Quote from: Xygax
Don't worry so much about how hard something is for us to code, or about the implementation details of the thing. If you want a feature, propose it. And ask for what you really want, not what you think the reasonable fallback is. Then, don't debate over the merits of various implementation details... without knowing the code well, it's a meaningless debate. Overall, I think this will improve the level of our discourse, because sometimes we don't know precisely what user-facing features are most interesting to you guys, but we do know pretty well how hard certain things are to implement.
When you're proposing a feature or improvement, think of it only in terms of how you'd like it to work from your perspective as a player
So, here ... let me try to wrap up everything together into something looking like a final product of a suggestion for the staff to consider. Based on this final product, I'd appreciate it if folks would chime in on tweaks they think would be needed to ensure nothing is getting way out of balance or whack.
The final idea (going by the posts myself and other folks have made in the thread so far) is:
A generic "other recruit of your clan" type NPC, who spawns in your compound on the same schedule as the sparring dummies do currently. By generic I mean he isn't a named NPC with a history and set skills, he's like the "a human soldier of tektolnes", a faceless one of many type people.
This generic recruit would be wielding sparring weapons, and be ready to spar your PC provided no other PC's in your clan were logged in to participate in the training excercises for that morning.
His skills would vary just like all the other generic NPC's skills do, but generally be somewhere in the middle ground, not total newbie levels, not 100+ warrior levels, say ... a 15 or 20 day warrior range. Staff, being able to actually see the skill levels, would be in a better position to set this than we players are.
His scripting would simply be, to disengage and maybe say something like, "Gah you win, you win! Stop!" when you drop him to a certain percentage of his health; and also to disengage you automatically if you type disengage first.
He would have mercy off (as a peace offering to the folks who love dieing due to code bugs), so if you got disconnected, or lagged, or whatever else in the middle of sparring him you would run the risk of being killed "accidentally" by him, to keep sparring "dangerous". --- As a side note I think this is fucking retarded, but some folks seem to feel like this is important.
And that's it.
This way when no other PC's are around, your PC can still follow the training schedule set out by your clan and actually get some combat training out of it, without needing to bother staff with logs and requests.
As a small bonus idea: What if the sparring recruit NPC could be scripted to, on your command, guard or attack (and subsequently disengage) the sparring dummy in the compound to also do rescue/guard drills with you on the days that your clan has designated as guard/rescue drill days?
Thoughts? Suggestions? Critics that are based on something more than irrational gut impulses?
Just don't be specific on the skill level. "Able to spar new characters without sending them to go sleep in 3 hits" is what's desirable.
Right, well like I said ... staff would be best able to pick the skills levels to make sure he is capable of sparring newbie folks up to snuff, but not able to create monsters and bringers of doom out of everyone who spars with him.
EDIT: I mean ... I agree with you, I just thought I had already worded it in such a way as to avoid specific skill levels.
Quote from: Rhyden on December 01, 2009, 12:58:28 AM
The reason why npc training may be frowned upon, in my books, is because it lessens the pc-pc interaction. If you had dummies available for offpeak, they would be available to onpeak as well. I simply believe this would lessen the amount of interaction between players.
Most combat PCs are required to train at certain times, regardless of whether other PCs are around. Offpeak Amos is not perambulating around the city in search of interaction; he's idling in the sparring ring with a nice ldesc.
(Bless you, people who love to solo-emote; I admire you, but I am not one of you.)
Here, here!
Quote from: brytta.leofa on December 01, 2009, 12:34:24 PM
Most combat PCs are required to train at certain times, regardless of whether other PCs are around. Offpeak Amos is not perambulating around the city in search of interaction; he's idling in the sparring ring with a nice ldesc.
(Bless you, people who love to solo-emote; I admire you, but I am not one of you.)
And 'that' is why I fale combat roles.
I 'am' wandering around looking for interaction most of the time in situations like that.
Also... I really like the idea. In my experience, it's all too rare for off-peakers to get a fair shake at solid training because they so rarely find a partner outside the sparring dummy.
Some roles due to their nature are very hindered in who or what they can train with, such as Nobles only being able to spar other nobles or (now non-existent) slaves. A sparring partner, NPC, would be great for these roles to cut away the boredom of isolation and also to actually train those skills.
Quote from: Jdr on December 01, 2009, 06:07:14 PM
Some roles due to their nature are very hindered in who or what they can train with, such as Nobles only being able to spar other nobles or (now non-existent) slaves. A sparring partner, NPC, would be great for these roles to cut away the boredom of isolation and also to actually train those skills.
For nobles in general as they currently exist in ARM, this should be a "no." The lack of l33t skillz training is one of the penalties you pay for taking up that sort of role; it's part of the design to keep leaders focused on leaderly things. The game suffers when nobles take too much of an interest in their own coded skill development, or their own mudsex, or their own <insert activity here>, all of which keeps them away from the plotting, scheming, and manipulating they should be doing. The same is really true for leaders at all levels, but if a player does want to play a skilled-in-combat leader, then there are other options for doing that.
I'd say if a player was being too interested in personal growth, the staff would mention it to players. I'm fairly sure most of us are mature enough to moderate our own activities and decisions.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on December 01, 2009, 06:17:31 PM
Quote from: Jdr on December 01, 2009, 06:07:14 PM
Some roles due to their nature are very hindered in who or what they can train with, such as Nobles only being able to spar other nobles or (now non-existent) slaves. A sparring partner, NPC, would be great for these roles to cut away the boredom of isolation and also to actually train those skills.
For nobles in general as they currently exist in ARM, this should be a "no." The lack of l33t skillz training is one of the penalties you pay for taking up that sort of role; it's part of the design to keep leaders focused on leaderly things. The game suffers when nobles take too much of an interest in their own coded skill development, or their own mudsex, or their own <insert activity here>, all of which keeps them away from the plotting, scheming, and manipulating they should be doing. The same is really true for leaders at all levels, but if a player does want to play a skilled-in-combat leader, then there are other options for doing that.
I disagree with this sentiment. I believe that the only responsibility a sponsored leader has is to play their character (and send in report emails to the imms).
Quote from: Zoltan on December 01, 2009, 06:51:13 PM
I disagree with this sentiment. I believe that the only responsibility a sponsored leader has is to play their character (and send in report emails to the imms).
From the docs:
Quote from: http://www.armageddon.org/general/noble.htmlOOCly, the noble role is intended to enhance the game, and players who accept such a role should agree that they will play in a way that contributes to the game. That includes initiating events, providing employment for other PCs, cooperating with staff requests, etc. While it is acceptable to make another PC's life difficult for IC reasons, the focus of a noble's existence should not be harassing commoners, trying to enslave people who don't bow, or using NPCs to pkill.
Quote from: Twilight on November 30, 2009, 05:25:53 PM
I can think of six skills, beyond weapon skills, that can be potentially worked on with a sparring dummy.
I am guessing you are referring to combat skills like "bash, kick...etc". If that is the case, they too were against the rules for using on dummy (I was told this way about a few years ago, and I don't know if that rule is still there)
IIRC, you can't codedly fail a bash on a dummy, and there are other...effects as well.
Maybe Twilight meant bandage.
My list did not include things like kick, bash, backstab.
Bandage, yes. Flee, yes. And a few other things. Not all applicable to all dummies.
Alright..... So now you've got your off-peak character that is -so- off-peak it needs an NPC to spar with when he's on.... He's to the point to where he could -eat- the sparring NPC if he wanted to.
...What now?
What's the point?
So now you've got a moderately skilled PC in a clan who's entire population logs in on-peak.
What do you do with him now? Your PC sarge is never on when you're on, so you can't go off on any missions or whatever....
And seriously, this isn't a strawman-- I'm legitimately curious, because I'm not entirely sure what -I'd- do in the above scenario.
Quote from: Qzzrbl on December 01, 2009, 08:13:04 PM
Alright..... So now you've got your off-peak character that is -so- off-peak it needs an NPC to spar with when he's on.... He's to the point to where he could -eat- the sparring NPC if he wanted to.
This affects more than those who are "so off peak". Peak is a four hour period in a twenty four hour day. Some people can bend their schedule for special events or to prolong good play, but their daily, leisure time is spent when there, for the most part, isn't anyone else around.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on December 01, 2009, 12:34:24 PM
Quote from: Rhyden on December 01, 2009, 12:58:28 AM
The reason why npc training may be frowned upon, in my books, is because it lessens the pc-pc interaction. If you had dummies available for offpeak, they would be available to onpeak as well. I simply believe this would lessen the amount of interaction between players.
Most combat PCs are required to train at certain times, regardless of whether other PCs are around. Offpeak Amos is not perambulating around the city in search of interaction; he's idling in the sparring ring with a nice ldesc.
Yeah, check out my last post.
Quote from: RhydenIf your ideal dummy idea above was implemented, I would be all for it. And I don't think it would lessen player interaction much.
Yeah, Synth's idea would be nice, but I don't think there's enough offpeak players with this specific problem for staff to make it a reality. Again, I could be wrong. There could be 10 offpeak players in 10 different clans sitting around solo rping who would have a more beneficial and fun time with this ideal sparring dummy.
Quote from: Qzzrbl on December 01, 2009, 08:13:04 PM
Alright..... So now you've got your off-peak character that is -so- off-peak it needs an NPC to spar with when he's on.... He's to the point to where he could -eat- the sparring NPC if he wanted to.
...What now?
What's the point?
So now you've got a moderately skilled PC in a clan who's entire population logs in on-peak.
What do you do with him now? Your PC sarge is never on when you're on, so you can't go off on any missions or whatever....
And seriously, this isn't a strawman-- I'm legitimately curious, because I'm not entirely sure what -I'd- do in the above scenario.
So now, when you make time in your schedule to log in for the RPT or HRPT, you won't get one-shot-killed by a tarantula 5 minutes after leaving the gates. Hell, you might actually be useful. GOD FORBID.
There has been days when 60+ players were currently logged into the world and NOT A SINGLE ONE logged into the clan or visiting redstorm/luirs/cenyr.
What say you then? >:(
Quote from: Gunnerblaster on December 01, 2009, 09:45:16 PM
There has been days when 60+ players were currently logged into the world and NOT A SINGLE ONE logged into the clan or visiting redstorm/luirs/cenyr.
What say you then? >:(
Find a new clan?
Find a new clan, has to be one of the lamest answers..and the most common. It's also horribly unfair to the clan leader, and the clan imm, and to anyone who is active and IN the clan, but maybe on vacation for a week..imagine being in a very active clan, not particularly populated, but active. Now imagine 2 characters die. Two are left, still active. One player goes on vacation for a week. And word gets out that this clan is inactive. Now you have one player who logs in dutifully, looking to recruit replacements for the -recently dead- PCs..and no one wants to join, because it's "inactive." So that guy quits. And the guy on vacation returns, to find out that his clan really -is- inactive now.
All because people keep telling everyone on the GDB to find another clan if the one they're in is inactive.
If it's inactive, RECRUIT in-game for new characters. If your character is stuck in Luir's, break a rule. Go out and ride around. Or break a different rule, not so significant, and sit in the End when you're supposed to be sparring, and see if someone doesn't show up that you can interact with. Break a -different- different rule, and attempt to make contact with that <censored> in the <censored> that you're told not to mess with. Even if you don't have coded authority to hire anyone, you could put someone in touch with someone who does have coded authority. OR - you could even wish up and ask for an authority to be animated. Remember now we have "auto-pay" so finding someone to pay your salary is no longer an issue. Most clans have sparring dummies, so having someone to spar with is not an issue. Most clans have places where they store raw goods, so having something to keep busy with shouldn't be an issue.
If worst comes to worse, walk out the gates of wherever you are, 3 rooms, and type FORAGE ROCKS. Repeat a few times, add a fun emote. Rest once in awhile, repeat some more, emote some more. Use think to express how bored you are. Use feel to express how your brain is melting from the heat. Rest some more, drink some water, go back through the gate, and sell whatever rocks you just found. Use the sids to get drunk, and break some more rules.
APPENDED: Finding a new clan shouldn't be the result of not having anyone to RP with. It should be the result of your character's needs, and the clan's needs, not being a good match. Just because there's no one to RP with doesn't mean there's nothing to do. It's just, when what you do, is incompatible with what the clan needs from you, that it should become an issue.
I wholeheartedly agree with Lizzie.
Fine then.
Store and find a new character.
SHEEEEEESH.
::)
:(
I agree with, most ... of what Lizzie said. Though not the bit about breaking rules. If your PC is the type of PC to want to go break the rules in the first place, sure by all means go right ahead. But if your character is the type to follow the rules set out by his superiors (be it because he's afraid of them or just the straight and true typ) ... you should not have to sacrifice that for an OOC reason.
I've been whining about what Lizzie and Mushmouth have been saying for like... a RL year.
Just because you don't have very active clan members shouldn't mean "suicide and do something better". There should be a way that the player isn't shafted due to poor play times.
Quote from: Riev on December 02, 2009, 02:56:33 AM
Just because you don't have very active clan members shouldn't mean "suicide and do something better". There should be a way that the player isn't shafted due to poor play times.
So is the solution training with a sparring npc dummy? I'm not saying yes or no, I am just curious. If enough people feel that this ideal sparring dummy will help offpeak players from being shafted, then I can't really argue with that.
Quote from: Rhyden on December 02, 2009, 06:32:47 AM
Quote from: Riev on December 02, 2009, 02:56:33 AM
Just because you don't have very active clan members shouldn't mean "suicide and do something better". There should be a way that the player isn't shafted due to poor play times.
So is the solution training with a sparring npc dummy? I'm not saying yes or no, I am just curious. If enough people feel that this ideal sparring dummy will help offpeak players from being shafted, then I can't really argue with that.
I would say not just the off-peak players (though it would help them the most no doubt) but anyone who is newly recruited, at newbie skill levels, and seeking to move from newbie to at least the beginnings of competent ... and actually follows the clan training schedule would stand to gain from such an implmentation.
I feel like, when you take your spanking new character and place them in a military clan, you would expect that they would start to get military training. But if your PC doesn't frequently bump into other clan member PCs, this doesn't happen no matter how true to the training schedule you stay.
I think sparring NPCS would answer that problem.
But ... you know, I've probably talked enough in this thread. Think my piece has been said.
There are players who play at times when the online tally is closer to 10 than the 50+ most of us get to enjoy.
There are clans that never have more than 1-3 active players at a time.
There are areas of the game so under-populated that playing there at any time of the day still qualifies as isolated roleplay.
There are players who deliberately never play in clans because of repeated experiences with intense boredom and loneliness.
It baffles me how some players will fight tooth and nail to prevent other players of a certain demographic from being able to play the game on the same premise as them. I don't know what kind of mentality it takes to want to fight change for the sake of not wanting to see change, and I wonder why it has become such an ingrained part of the GDB, but I hate to see it affect other players. Why should Niles the European or Ming the Asian have to live with the fact that they can either never play in clans or never have a character who can fight? Why should your playtimes have to affect your character's skill growth? This seems like precisely the thing that an RPI mud should try everything it can to avoid. Unfortunately, it is very much the case.
I don't see how sparring NPCs is such a bad alternative to standing around idle for 20 minutes every dawn, or going that step further and just saying "fuck it" and not even going back to the compound at dawn because there hasn't been anyone there the last 30 times. Sparring dummies are pretty much useless for general skill development and some clans don't even have them. Most clans do, however, have large vNPC populations and strict training schedules, and it makes no sense that any character could be in a clan for any length of time without getting to benefit from that training. It should be one of the greatest advantages to being in a clan in the first place. For every soldier, mercenary or guardsman who has to spend what is in reality a training session without seeing any training, a major flaw in the game is highlighted: something that should be an everyday fact is missing, and it's just as bad as if you had to accept mantis in the Gaj or gemmers visiting Tuluk.
It's also a matter of putting life back into the clans. Most of them struggle to even maintain enough players to be considered active, let alone ensure that everyone can expect clan roleplay in any given playing session. So many players stay away from clans these days because it easily becomes such a lonely experience, and it's a vicious cycle. Skill growth is one of the most effective incentives in the game to the point where people will base their characters' entire existence around it, so when being clanned tends to be the bar-none worst way of increasing your skills, it should be no surprise that people aren't interested. The Byn is just about the only clan that offers a consistently large and non-cyclical population these days, and you can only play a shitcloak so many times before it gets old.
It makes no sense that the guy who hunts birds for a living or mugs people in alleys for a living becomes a much better combatant than the guys who protect the city-states and fight in wars, or make their coin as goddamn mercenaries. Unfortunately, since the hunter and the mugger can hunt or mug whenever they want, they have unlimited access to the training that many clanned players consider themselves lucky to get in much lesser quantities. It's an atrocity that a character in the freaking army often has to get by with one or two sparring matches per day played. It even affects everyday roleplay because people have come to know that clanned characters are often pushovers until they've been around for an obscene length of time, and if I had a dime for every instance of roleplay I've seen affected by the fact that soldiers never get to train, I'd hire a crew of people to provide the clans with the training that they by all rights (and according to the documentation) should have.
I <3 Good Gortok.
Quote from: musashi on December 03, 2009, 01:27:13 AM
I <3 Good Gortok.
I second this message. There is not one thing I would add to his post, but instead wish only to show my support and raise my post count.
Thumbs up to Good Gortok's post.
Amen, Gortok. Amen.
Right? Jesus I suck at putting a point forward like Good Gortok does.
Quote from: Good Gortok on December 03, 2009, 01:09:16 AM
I don't see how sparring NPCs is such a bad alternative to standing around idle for 20 minutes every dawn, or going that step further and just saying "fuck it" and not even going back to the compound at dawn because there hasn't been anyone there the last 30 times.
Amen. Truth be told when I'm in those situation, I just say fuck it and do what I want. I leave the gates, go in the rinth whatever and I justify it ICly. If my Imms don't like it they can doc me, animate, whatever. I don't care. I'm here to have fun not cling to lines of realistic behavior regardless of how boring that will be.
But this is stupid, because realistically, I would stay in the compound and train. It's OOCly driven because I don't want to be a 90 warrior of idle time who has no idea which end of the sword to hold.
Anyone who follows this up saying the game is not about skills can feel free to go play a mush.
Both Harshlands and SoI have NPC trainers that you can spar with, and again, the horror stories of "what could happen" in this thread doesn't happen there.
I can't help but believe that providing something that would satisfy the expressed need of off-peak, iso-clan, or underpopulated-clan players would attract and retain more players. MOAR PLAYERS.
All players of ARM enjoy skill-building, to varying degrees, or else we would not be playing a MUD that is coded to allow for so much skill development. That is simply fact. When we make it more difficult or impossible for certain subsets of players to develop their PCs' skills, then we actively encourage them to play elsewhere.
Encouraging players to play elsewhere is dumb.
I agree with those who say adding sparring NPCs is a good idea, overall.
Leaving a clan to join one that makes you more free to skill-up, or breaking rules to go outside isn't really a solution to this problem. The current system awards the PC boxing animals instead of the PC sticking in their barracks during training time. And yes, while it's certainly possible to send in logs of your virtual practice, the gain isn't immediate when it probably should be for the basic skills.
NPCs shouldn't help beyond a moderate level, and I think supporters of the idea agree with that.
I agree with the OP, this should be implemented.
I hope this generated some discussion staff-side.
Of course it did. What you really want is for them to come in here and let you know their thoughts. But they seem to be keeping away for some reason.
Where's Isobue (?) and his army of lobbyists when we need them!
Quote from: Malken on December 03, 2009, 04:12:46 PM
Where's Isobue (?) and his army of lobbyists when we need them!
roooooooooofl
Poor off-peakers. :( Just give them their damn sparring NPC.
I too would like to express my agreement with this idea.
I'll also volunteer to write up sparring npcs, should they ever be called for. Staff knows I'm good for it.
Stuff like the uselessness of sparring dummies, and other coded features of the world, often feels to me like legacy from when the MUD was much more twinkish and there wasn't such an emphasis on appropriately, accurately, realistically portraying our PCs. Yes, twinkish behavior still happens, and we do constantly get new players who need help with figuring out what should be done and what shouldn't...but for the most part, we are surrounded all the time by veteran players who do know what to do, and why. The playerbase is more trustworthy than 10 years ago, I'm sure of that, and I wish our coded environment reflected it.
I... agree with Gimf. Someone call my psychiatrist.
I think a lot of "excuses" for not doing things, are based on behaviors exhibited many years ago before we had the structure and rigidity we have now. Do people still twink? My god, yes. I've even been known to forage 10-10000000000 times without emoting so much as "bends over low, ass wiggling at the watching staff".
Simply put, players want to be trusted. Those that can't be, can be weeded out, but you need to promote SOME sort of positive player atmosphere. Right?
It wouldn't even be possible to "twink out" on a sparring NPC, if you set it up with the right script.
Make it auto-stop backstab, steal, sap, throw (others?) similar to the way you can't even try to use the 'steal' command in certain shops (even if you're not targeting the shop itself).
Have it show up only during scheduled clan sparring periods.
Make sure it flees before it reaches poor condition.
Make sure it disengages once its target PC reaches 'not well.'
Hell, you could even code other NPCs to come in for "unarmed sparring" days and for "wrestling/subdue/guard/rescue" drill days. Each with their own nifty little scripts to facilitate training those skills.
Again, impossible to twink because of the skill timer, and the limited availability of the NPC.
I say we try it. If it doesn't work, we get rid of it. It doesn't have be something that will last longer than Arm.1.
Quote from: Synthesis on December 03, 2009, 10:43:22 PM
Make it auto-stop backstab, steal, sap, throw (others?) similar to the way you can't even try to use the 'steal' command in certain shops (even if you're not targeting the shop itself).
No, no, not auto-stop. You know
that thing where every NPC in Luir's Outpost pours out of barracks and cracks and holes in the ground to come kill you?
Imperfect use of backstab, sap, or throw against a training NPC should trigger
that thing.
Bump! This is an important issue.
If there's a lot of concern about this being twinked out on, something similar to the AoD's sparring area could be set up. Their sparring dummy is set up at dawn, and slaves take it away by late morning (I think). It's coded that way.
Yup. The training sergeant comes out at dawn and the slaves prostitutes take him away at high sun.
Quote from: Akoto on December 12, 2009, 10:30:57 AM
If there's a lot of concern about this being twinked out on, something similar to the AoD's sparring area could be set up. Their sparring dummy is set up at dawn, and slaves take it away by late morning (I think). It's coded that way.
What is AoD?
Seriously ... I hope staff have been dilberating this. >:(
Quote from: musashi on December 12, 2009, 05:01:08 PM
Seriously ... I hope staff have been dilberating this. >:(
Dilberating? Is that that thing where staff walk into cubicles like dilbert comics? lol
Bump. Being off peak blows.
i miss hitting dummies enough using bare hands. It's not often but it'll raise general offence.
Quote from: jmordetsky on December 17, 2009, 09:22:35 PM
Bump. Being off peak blows.
Even though I don't play any warriorly characters...
ARMAGEDDON IS SUPPOSED TO BE AS HARSH OOC AS IT IS IC YOU FUCKING PUSSIES.
I agree with sparring NPCs.
I wonder what the coders and admins think about this idea? Has anybody from staff weighed in here yet?
All we can do is keep bumping the thread till they say something :P
Kinda already have.
Quote from: Olgaris on November 28, 2009, 02:43:23 PM
While I think Good Gortok's ideas are both strange and inaccurate, I can agree that you will not see a sparring dummy that is useful to improve your skills.