Sparring NPC's!

[musashi]

Well, the thing is, you can't exactly have much interaction with an NPC.... You can't goad an NPC into a fight, you can't piss off an NPC to the point to where it wants to kill you, the NPC will do the exact same thing, every single time, no matter what.

Wish up.

I'm serious, if you want to goad an NPC into a fight, or piss them off to the point where they want to kill you, wish up. Staff will be more than happy to oblidge you. We have at least one off-peak staff member that I know of so, even if you play off peak you could still try to get your character killed during sparring if that really, really does it for you.

For the rest of us who are more concerned with just having a life of combat drills actually reflect some skill gain even though we play off-peak ...

They might not get a little lag in their commands, or mess up with them, and inadvertently kill you?

You still might get a little lag in your commands or mess them up be inadvertently killed, or inadvertently kill said sparring NPC. Remember, just because an NPC types disengage does not mean you have to type it back in kind. That's still up to you so if you get disconnected, lagged, or the like and fail to type that in, the fight goes on ... just like if you were fighting a PC.

That they might forget to turn mercy off, or play in a style where they don't bother to use it at all?

A PC might, but this is a mistake nearly every single player I've ever seen goes out of their way to avoid. This is why people OOC: Make sure you have mercy on, unless you're trying to kill someone - before sparring. If accidently being killed by an honest OOC mistake on the part of another player is really something that you enjoy having in the game, then I'd be willing to compromise and say, have the sparring NPCs always have mercy off. That way you could still have your chance of being IC'ly killed by OOC complications ... since that appears to be really important for you.

That they might turn out to be so damn good the first time you spar they inadvertently kill you, especially when combined with some of the previous factors?

How would a sparring NPC be any different? Random soldiers in the game have different levels of skills, they are not all cookie cut. One AoD NPC might kick your arse, while you wipe the floor with another. This is by design. The same goes with critters in the wild. Why can't the same go with sparring NPCs? Each time the NPC is loaded up in the early morning for use, it's stats and skills would differ from what they had been the day before. I feel that in a way, this would be more dangerous than when you square off against most PCs, because in the case of most PCs, after the first fight you have a general idea of where that PC's abilities stand, and the rate at which they're going to improve. Not so for generic NPCs. It's always a wildcard.

Those are always risks faced now in sparring. You are comparing something fraught with uncertainty (PC sparring) to something with potentially zero uncertainy as to what will happen if you understand the system on which it works.  If you can transpose that same sort of uncertainty risk to the NPC, then you would be addressing my concerns around the seeming riskless aspect of an NPC.

Are your concerns addressed yet?

My point, which you seem to be ignoring, is that we don't need NPCs.

I'm not ignoring your point. I'm just asking you to back it up with something, and then I'm perfectly willing to address the things you back it up with and offer a counter arguement, like I just did above.

[RogueGunslinger]

Hmmm.

[Qzzrbl]

Well, the thing is, you can't exactly have much interaction with an NPC.... You can't goad an NPC into a fight, you can't piss off an NPC to the point to where it wants to kill you, the NPC will do the exact same thing, every single time, no matter what.

Wish up.

But that's kind of the thing.... I'll never know if my PC's actions are pissing off another PC's, so I can't just wish up and say, "My guy's pissing off this NPC, make him try to kill me."

Not to mention sparring NPC deaths-- how would those be handled?

[RogueGunslinger]

The same way as other clan NPC deaths. Really now. You're not even trying.

[Qzzrbl]

By simply have them respawn?

I really don't know how clan NPC deaths are usually treated. ;~;

They just respawn like other NPCs?

[Twilight]

I remember in the Byn, twice I took people to negative hps in the second or so it took my to clear out my buffer of the text I was typing.

Now, if you are sparring a PC, it really doesn't freaking matter if that is due to a glitch, or my slow typing, or whatever.  It is still a -risk-.   The other person is still going to loose a character if things go badly.  Although the causes might be OOC, the risk is IC.  Sparring is dangerous.  Show me the risk of your character dying isn't going to be lessened.  

I like inherent danger in sparring.  Although I like how disengage now works, I also think it has wimpified the danger in sparring a bit too much, unfortunately.  

[Qzzrbl]

I remember in the Byn, twice I took people to negative hps in the second or so it took my to clear out my buffer of the text I was typing.

Now, if you are sparring a PC, it really doesn't freaking matter if that is due to a glitch, or my slow typing, or whatever.  It is still a -risk-.   The other person is still going to loose a character if things go badly.  Although the causes might be OOC, the risk is IC.  Sparring is dangerous.  Show me the risk of your character dying isn't going to be lessened.  

I like inherent danger in sparring.  Although I like how disengage now works, I also think it has wimpified the danger in sparring a bit too much, unfortunately.  

Harh, make the sparring NPC a half-giant.

[RogueGunslinger]

My point is, you're just throwing up straw-man after straw-man. And now they're really kind of turning into hot-air-men, you know? Like the ones at car-dealerships that wave their arms around and dance because of the air in them? Well how am I supposed to attack the argument with all that frakkin dancing you're making those men do, you know? They're distracting! And then I start thinking things like, krath, should I buy a car? I could use 4 wheel drive. It's snowy in the winter in Flagstaff. That reminds me, I should buy a new coat.

[musashi]

Sorry I hit post way too soon in my last post, and actually meant to type a crap ton more. It's edited now, please scroll up and have a look.

EDIT: Actually ... here I'll just cut and paste it.

Well, the thing is, you can't exactly have much interaction with an NPC.... You can't goad an NPC into a fight, you can't piss off an NPC to the point to where it wants to kill you, the NPC will do the exact same thing, every single time, no matter what.

Wish up.

I'm serious, if you want to goad an NPC into a fight, or piss them off to the point where they want to kill you, wish up. Staff will be more than happy to oblidge you. We have at least one off-peak staff member that I know of so, even if you play off peak you could still try to get your character killed during sparring if that really, really does it for you.

For the rest of us who are more concerned with just having a life of combat drills actually reflect some skill gain even though we play off-peak ...

They might not get a little lag in their commands, or mess up with them, and inadvertently kill you?

You still might get a little lag in your commands or mess them up be inadvertently killed, or inadvertently kill said sparring NPC. Remember, just because an NPC types disengage does not mean you have to type it back in kind. That's still up to you so if you get disconnected, lagged, or the like and fail to type that in, the fight goes on ... just like if you were fighting a PC.

That they might forget to turn mercy off, or play in a style where they don't bother to use it at all?

A PC might, but this is a mistake nearly every single player I've ever seen goes out of their way to avoid. This is why people OOC: Make sure you have mercy on, unless you're trying to kill someone - before sparring. If accidently being killed by an honest OOC mistake on the part of another player is really something that you enjoy having in the game, then I'd be willing to compromise and say, have the sparring NPCs always have mercy off. That way you could still have your chance of being IC'ly killed by OOC complications ... since that appears to be really important for you.

That they might turn out to be so damn good the first time you spar they inadvertently kill you, especially when combined with some of the previous factors?

How would a sparring NPC be any different? Random soldiers in the game have different levels of skills, they are not all cookie cut. One AoD NPC might kick your arse, while you wipe the floor with another. This is by design. The same goes with critters in the wild. Why can't the same go with sparring NPCs? Each time the NPC is loaded up in the early morning for use, it's stats and skills would differ from what they had been the day before. I feel that in a way, this would be more dangerous than when you square off against most PCs, because in the case of most PCs, after the first fight you have a general idea of where that PC's abilities stand, and the rate at which they're going to improve. Not so for generic NPCs. It's always a wildcard.

Those are always risks faced now in sparring. You are comparing something fraught with uncertainty (PC sparring) to something with potentially zero uncertainy as to what will happen if you understand the system on which it works.  If you can transpose that same sort of uncertainty risk to the NPC, then you would be addressing my concerns around the seeming riskless aspect of an NPC.

Are your concerns addressed yet?

My point, which you seem to be ignoring, is that we don't need NPCs.

I'm not ignoring your point. I'm just asking you to back it up with something, and then I'm perfectly willing to address the things you back it up with and offer a counter arguement, like I just did above.

[Rhyden]

Yes, it would be nice if we had sparring dummies for not only offpeakers to train their melee and archery skills with.

But I think the main reasoning against it now is that there wouldn't be any risk factor like sparring another pc or fighting an npc.

So you would be getting better at dealing with risks in a no-risk environment. Essentially, it would be a sparring dummy vending machine (yeah, I said it again) because you go up to an inanimate object and take experience out of it. I don't like that. I think you won't see these kinds of sparring dummies around for the same reason you don't see npcs handing out quests with experience upon completion in Arm.

I also think there aren't sparring dummies around right now because staff want players to learn while interacting with other players, or interacting with the dangers in the wild with an element of risk. You can only get better when you fail. And if you have a sparring dummy handing out exp, you won't fail. I could make a warrior pc offpeak and spar this dummy for 10 ic years without interacting with one pc, and without a failure, then emerge as the holy doomslayer. No thanks.

I'm sticking to my belief that sparring dummies are here for rp, new players to learn combat commands, and 3 person sparring with 2 pcs.

[brytta.leofa]

I think this idea of risk in sparring is a little overwrought.  Intentional deaths in sparring are mostly rare; unintentional deaths are mostly lame.

I am perfectly fine with things being in the following state:
  If your PC works for a major organization in a combat-oriented role, he will train according to schedule, usually with someone decently competent, whenever you decide to log in and play.

Armageddon is not a PK competition.  But if it were, people who play a lot (as in, this is their only hobby or extracurricular responsibility) seem to have a huge advantage.  People who play during peak hours have a huge advantage.  This doesn't break the game, but...you like it that way or you don't, I suppose.

And if you have a sparring dummy handing out exp, you won't fail. I could make a warrior pc offpeak and spar this dummy for 10 ic years without interacting with one pc, and without a failure, then emerge as the holy doomslayer.

Only if Corporal Trainerdummy is himself the holy doomslayer.  One simple variation might be to give "trainers" high offense and shield use, but low defense, such that they're mostly training people to Not Get Killed Out There.

[BlazinDayz]

I think the other available solution right now is if you are offpeak and you don't have anyone around usually, send in some logs of training with the dummy, exercising, or in general working out to your clan staff. If you are a somewhat long-lived character, I'm pretty sure staff may oblige.

[Qzzrbl]

My point is, you're just throwing up straw-man after straw-man. And now they're really kind of turning into hot-air-men, you know? Like the ones at car-dealerships that wave their arms around and dance because of the air in them? Well how am I supposed to attack the argument with all that frakkin dancing you're making those men do, you know? They're distracting! And then I start thinking things like, krath, should I buy a car? I could use 4 wheel drive. It's snowy in the winter in Flagstaff. That reminds me, I should buy a new coat.

I'm honestly not trying to throw out strawmen or anything like that, I'm just stating my concerns about the implementation of an NPC that you can go to, and at absolutely no risk your character, train up skills.

While everybody else who isn't off-peak has to spar against other PCs with who the code often works in mysterious ways, at sometimes great risk to your character.

[Synthesis]

Sparring with a mediocre NPC will only get you mediocre skills.

I don't see what the problem is, even if it is "risk free" (which it isn't).  What the fuck does "risk free" have to do with it, anyway?  The whole "sparring other PCs in my highly-populated clan compound with a resident medic on staff while being supervised by virtual sergeants is RISKY!" argument never flew very fucking far, in my book.

[Qzzrbl]

Sparring with a mediocre NPC will only get you mediocre skills.

I don't see what the problem is, even if it is "risk free" (which it isn't).  What the fuck does "risk free" have to do with it, anyway?

Nobody's really agreed on the strength of the NPC, some suggested the NPC's adjusts to your character's level or whatever..... But with an auto-disengage/flee script and mercy stuck "on"-- it is pretty much risk-free.

The last thing I want is "Armageddon off-peak" to turn in to "Armageddon easy mode", and I believe implementing this would be a step in that direction.

But then again, I could be completely wrong. But from how it's being described so far, that's what I'm seeing.

[Gagula]

I also think there aren't sparring dummies around right now because staff want players to learn while interacting with other players, or interacting with the dangers in the wild with an element of risk. You can only get better when you fail. And if you have a sparring dummy handing out exp, you won't fail. I could make a warrior pc offpeak and spar this dummy for 10 ic years without interacting with one pc, and without a failure, then emerge as the holy doomslayer. No thanks.

     Is this any different than if you get some awesome stats?  I knew a few characters that trained my PCs in everything they knew.....and I still wasn't even half as good the teacher.  Does this mean that my character should have been the holy doomslayer because they, theoretically, trained every IC day?  If so, then maybe I should go back and complain....
     Personally, I should think that if I'm Amos with AoD or Legion or Fist or Byn, I should know how to kick ass.  It's what the character is paid to do......it's like asking a baker if he knows how to operate an oven....it's in the job desc.  I'm all for NPCs that would slowly teach/cap at certain levels.  Ok, so you go out, and a Mekillot eats you, that's acceptable....I mean really, how many times have you heard about the guy who single-handedly brought down a Mek?  Going out as someones guard, and a Scrab get's them.....kinda weak.

[Synthesis]

The relative skill levels of the sparring NPC would directly correlate to the maximum skill gain you could achieve from it.

Once you are equal to the sparring NPC, you'll begin to injure it to the point where it would flee during the course of a fight, limiting the length of the fight, limiting your chances to get a skill gain, slowing your progress.  Once you outmatch the sparring NPC, this is even more of a factor.  Eventually, you will be able to massacre the NPC without ever being harmed, and without him ever causing you to fail your attack.  At this point, it is no longer useful.

What is this point?  Well, I think it should be the exact same point that PCs reach a plateau sparring against other mid-range PCs.  A 20-day off-peak warrior in the AoD should have relatively the same skill levels as a 20-day peak warrior in the AoD.  They have exactly the same training schedules and regimens.  There's no reason one should be weaker.

The "risk" argument is bullshit.  Sparring PCs presents no risk that can be legitimately explained in an entirely IC fashion, without resorting to highly questionable and remotely reasonable scenarios.

[Rhyden]

Sparring with a mediocre NPC will only get you mediocre skills.

I don't see what the problem is, even if it is "risk free" (which it isn't).  What the fuck does "risk free" have to do with it, anyway?  The whole "sparring other PCs in my highly-populated clan compound with a resident medic on staff while being supervised by virtual sergeants is RISKY!" argument never flew very fucking far, in my book.

I should have been more clear. I think this risk mentality is only applicable when killing npcs in or outside of cities. My only beef is sparring an npc (the dummy) without any risk involved.

Pc-pc sparring isn't too risky, usually. The reason why npc training may be frowned upon, in my books, is because it lessens the pc-pc interaction. If you had dummies available for offpeak, they would be available to onpeak as well. I simply believe this would lessen the amount of interaction between players.

But if there is that little interaction on offpeak and said combat characters really do need to gain experience, I could -maybe- see a sparring dummy with minimal experience offered for melee/archery.

You can still send staff logs for now, but if this circumstance is less than rare, maybe we do need a coded solution.

[Gagula]

I can understand this arguement, but the fact of the matter is, sometimes you need the NPC there for weaker PCs.  If you have a person that you can send the new guy to to toughen him up, then you can focus on more advanced skills with the stronger warriors.

[Synthesis]

Sparring with a mediocre NPC will only get you mediocre skills.

I don't see what the problem is, even if it is "risk free" (which it isn't).  What the fuck does "risk free" have to do with it, anyway?  The whole "sparring other PCs in my highly-populated clan compound with a resident medic on staff while being supervised by virtual sergeants is RISKY!" argument never flew very fucking far, in my book.

I should have been more clear. I think this risk mentality is only applicable when killing npcs in or outside of cities. My only beef is sparring an npc (the dummy) without any risk involved.

Pc-pc sparring isn't too risky, usually. The reason why npc training may be frowned upon, in my books, is because it lessens the pc-pc interaction. If you had dummies available for offpeak, they would be available to onpeak as well. I simply believe this would lessen the amount of interaction between players.

But if there is that little interaction on offpeak and said combat characters really do need to gain experience, I could -maybe- see a sparring dummy with minimal experience offered for melee/archery.

You can still send staff logs for now, but if this circumstance is less than rare, maybe we do need a coded solution.

If an on-peaker is in a clan where they really don't have anyone else to spar during sparring time, why shouldn't they be able to use the goddamn NPC?

Why on earth would anyone use the NPC instead of another PC when another PC is available?  This whole line of reasoning you're using isn't computing.

[Rhyden]

The relative skill levels of the sparring NPC would directly correlate to the maximum skill gain you could achieve from it.
Once you are equal to the sparring NPC, you'll begin to injure it to the point where it would flee during the course of a fight, limiting the length of the fight, limiting your chances to get a skill gain, slowing your progress.  Once you outmatch the sparring NPC, this is even more of a factor.  Eventually, you will be able to massacre the NPC without ever being harmed, and without him ever causing you to fail your attack.  At this point, it is no longer useful.

That would be cool.

I can understand this arguement, but the fact of the matter is, sometimes you need the NPC there for weaker PCs.  If you have a person that you can send the new guy to to toughen him up, then you can focus on more advanced skills with the stronger warriors.

This is true.

Why on earth would anyone use the NPC instead of another PC when another PC is available?  This whole line of reasoning you're using isn't computing.

I think I'm still picturing the present sparring dummy many times your size and weight that could likely kill characters if it fought back. If your ideal dummy idea above was implemented, I would be all for it. And I don't think it would lessen player interaction much.

[Synthesis]

I'm talking about a sparring NPC who would be a normal humanoid NPC wielding sparring weapons.

He would then have an additional script that would a) prevent him from outright killing anyone he's sparring; b) prevent his sparring partner from killing him; c) schedule him to appear during the clan's regularly scheduled sparring sessions.

[Yam]

Jeeze people just go fight oxen like all the other warriors do.

[Twilight]

Synthesis's A and B are what I object to.  I actually -liked- it before the change to disengage.  There was a strategy and skill to sparring, especially when there was a disparity in PC skill levels.  Wait states ended up in PC deaths.  Yes, I liked that.

These days seem like sparring lite to me.  Yes, I think people should die sparring, in heavily populated compounds, with medics on duty.  There are lots of risky things not supported by the code, like a glancing blow to the head or infected wounds killing you days later.  I view it as risk transferance to those code aspects that still have the outside chance of getting you killed in a sparring ring.

[Synthesis]

There isn't strategy to sparring now?

Trust me, there's a whole fucking lot of strategy to it.  Especially if you're a shitload better than your recruits.

As far as people dying in sparring, that's just asinine.  It's asinine every time someone brings it up.  One of those hur-hur, look how hard we had it back in '99 arguments.  I've had two PCs actually die in sparring, and there wasn't anything "cool" or "gritty" about it.  Both were because of dual-club-wielding newbs who command-stacked six+ kick commands in a row before the disengage and stop commands were implemented.  It was fucking retarded then, and sparring accidents are still fucking retarded, unless you happen to be the imbecile who's sparring a half-giant.

At least now half-giants can actually train their defense independent of their offense by disengaging, which by all rights they always should have been able to do.