I'd like to know why exactly elves aren't allowed to ride on silt skimmers.
Elven pride keeps sharps off of mounts and wagons because they have the ability to run. Elves cannot run on silt. Either they take the skimmer or they die.
This seems to me is just another hit against an elven presence in the Byn. They already can't go on missions that require a wagon or extended travel on mounts unless their Sergeant is kind enough to bring along a tent.
Maybe they can't be confined to a skimmer? Them elven legs need to stretch.
Yeah, for myself, outside of a few very specific concepts, I just don't see playing a city elf. The whole, "You're proud of your inability to run!" thing just makes zero sense to me and really turns me off. Perhaps dwarves should be so proud of their ability to fly that they refuse to climb. Of course, they can't fly, but that doesn't change their refusal to climb! What fun!
It comes across as a contrived difference. If it offered any sort of advantage, real or imagined, sure, but there is nothing.
I suppose goth kids wear handcuffs and chain themselves to each other. Thats a real world example of self-imposed handicaps.
C-elves were just never meant to leave city-flagged rooms. Stamina regen is crap because endurance is racially low, movement points are similar to a human, can't ride, can't navigate sandstorms.
Fun
I seem to remember elves being on a certain silt skimmer years ago with a certain well known Sergeant of the Byn, helping us drag bag the corpse of the biggest silt horror you've ever seen.
Quote from: Marc on May 19, 2009, 10:38:48 AM
C-elves were just never meant to leave city-flagged rooms.
this.
do not make a c-elf and join the byn unless you are planning to steal all their knowledge, loot, and then quit without having ever gone on a mission.
you are not a warrior regardless of what your guild is. you are a city necker. go steal something.
Quote from: Agent_137 on May 19, 2009, 11:54:58 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 19, 2009, 10:38:48 AM
C-elves were just never meant to leave city-flagged rooms.
this.
do not make a c-elf and join the byn unless you are planning to steal all their knowledge, loot, and then quit without having ever gone on a mission.
you are not a warrior regardless of what your guild is. you are a city necker. go steal something.
Because 40ish% of the worlds population is completely immobile. Elven npcs in the byn or other non-elf organizations are the exceptions. PC's play the rule. And yes, d-elves and c-elves are the exact same race. Environment, environment, environment. No you can't learn to run.
/sarcasm
Quote from: Marc on May 19, 2009, 12:09:15 PM
Because 40ish% of the worlds population is completely immobile. Elven npcs in the byn or other non-elf organizations are the exceptions. PC's play the rule. And yes, d-elves and c-elves are the exact same race. Environment, environment, environment. No you can't learn to run.
/sarcasm
the elven NPCs that I remember from the byn are actually the last remaining elves from a tribe of desert elves.
no, you can't learn to run like a d-elf without having done it from childhood. Which C-elves have not. However, you could probably put in a request to the Imms if you logged training over the course of many IC years. i'm sure they'd help you out.
i'm not saying it doesn't suck and doesn't totally shit on the playability of c-elves. It does. But playability is not the chief concern here, apparently. (see gemmer threads.)
Quote from: Marc on May 19, 2009, 10:38:48 AM
I suppose goth kids wear handcuffs and chain themselves to each other. Thats a real world example of self-imposed handicap.
Goth chicks are both hot and kinky. I've never seen being handcuffed to a goth chick as a handicap.
You're right, city elves generally shouldn't be leaving cities, and while it can be played around with certain precautions and patience it doesn't mean things shouldn't be re-examined and perhaps tweaked a little.
I agree with the point Elves can not run on silt, why not let them ride silt skimmers?
Quote from: Agent_137 on May 19, 2009, 01:01:56 PM
But playability is not the chief concern here, apparently.
i thought more about my statement after I made it. I think we are locked into docs to a certain extent here. the immortals too. I expect arma 2 will be a better experience because the docs will have been made with the new knowledge of what worked and what didn't. I look forward to this.
Quote from: Agent_137 on May 19, 2009, 01:34:35 PM
Quote from: Agent_137 on May 19, 2009, 01:01:56 PM
But playability is not the chief concern here, apparently.
i thought more about my statement after I made it. I think we are locked into docs to a certain extent here. the immortals too. I expect arma 2 will be a better experience because the docs will have been made with the new knowledge of what worked and what didn't. I look forward to this.
The helpfiles and roleplaying documents say that elves do not ride mounts. Unless the silt skimmer is some sort of cybernetic kankish construction, I think that any elf I play will have no problems with riding one.
Seriously. What the fuck. Elves not riding silt skimmers? They used to all the time.
Totally silly, guys.
Quote from: Eloran on May 19, 2009, 10:17:50 AM
I'd like to know why exactly elves aren't allowed to ride on silt skimmers.
Maybe someone could chime in and shed some light on this?
I was rereading the elf docs, and I SEEM to remember that after the part about them not riding mounts there use to be a sentence about them not liking to ride in wagons, but would out of necessity. I could be mistaken though.
You mean:
Race Elf (Character)
[....] Due to their nature as runners, all elves find
the riding of mounts (and usually, riding in
wagons) to be an extremely shameful act. [....]
In other words, elves will never ride on mounts
or in wagons, as to do so owuld be to insult one
of the few things they are proud of: their natural
speed and endurance on the run.
The above helpfile offers no mentioning of skimmers.
If staff's stance is to not allow elves to ride them, perhaps
an amendment should be made.
Like the OP of the thread in ask the staff, elves can't run on silt. Are they too proud for skimmers even if it is the only way of transportation?
Sounds like just another way to douchify the longnecks IMO.
Unless desert elves can actually transit across the silt sea on foot in some manner (find this out ICly if you dare) I don't see why they couldn't ride a skimmer. The issue is that they almost always wouldn't ride one in the same manner that a dwarf with a focus to run from one end of the world to another would ride neither mounts nor wagons. There may be some exceptions on rare occasions, but overall a d-elf would probably be bent on finding a way across or through the silt on their own legs rather than use some construct.
City Elves on the other hand, which should normally stick to the cities (duh) and hardly ever travel out in the wastes, would be out of their fucking minds to adventure into the silt sea, period. Of course there are always exceptions to this rule as well...such as a c-elf from Red Storm who has sifted spice for 20 years, learned to navigate the storms, and helped fight off silt-flyers and silt-horrors (or just ran away from them) just might be inclined to join an expedition with the right crew for the right reasons.
Seph: Staff has said elves do not ride on skimmers. Since it was asked in the same sentence as mounts, I doubt there is any leeway to allow exceptions under the current ruling.
As for c-elves not leaving the city, is that an ingrained racial trait or is it along the same lines as a human commoner of either city: Why in krath would you ever want to leave the safety of the walls for the suicidal wastes?
Quote from: Marc on May 19, 2009, 06:44:49 PM
Seph: Staff has said elves do not ride on skimmers. Since it was asked in the same sentence as mounts, I doubt there is any leeway to allow exceptions under the current ruling.
As for c-elves not leaving the city, is that an ingrained racial trait or is it along the same lines as a human commoner of either city: Why in krath would you ever want to leave the safety of the walls for the suicidal wastes?
Who knows. Ask all the elf NPCs in Kurac or the ones that hang out in Red Storm.
Ah, Marc I think what the Staff is saying is that elves are not supposed to ride on skimmers in accordance with documentation and it would be greatly frowned upon to do so in almost every case. Would I play an elf and ride on a skimmer? Probably not. However, that doesn't mean you absolutely can't do it. Be prepared to be looked at awfully hard if you make the decision to do so.
As for your question I believe that a c-elf not leaving the city is, for a greater part, a tribal/racial thing. The elven family has lived in the city for generations. The city is all they know. It is how they make their living and where they raise their families. An elf might have obligations to his tribe/family and making a living by trade in the city would be the honorable thing to do in respects to their ancestors and fellow tribe mates. In addition to these things, a c-elf would not want to leave the city and get eaten or lost in the sand or bake under the sun for the same reason as any other city human/dwarf/half-elf. The exceptions I might see to this would be an elf who, for some reason or another, wound up in a clan/tribe such as Kurac or is involved with some ongoings in Red Storm where it may be natural to do some limited dune hopping. Again, this would only comprise a small fraction of c-elves.
Keep in mind that interpretating of the docs is like the interpretation of the Constitution and our laws in the United States. Interpretations vary from person to person, judge to judge. Until we hear the argument from the staff to support why they made their decision, instead of just their ruling, all we can do is speculate and try to make some sense of it. Frankly, there should be no coded reason that an elf couldn't ride a skimmer. RP wise it probably shouldn't happen in almost all cases.
Quote from: Sephiroto on May 19, 2009, 07:31:36 PM
Keep in mind that interpretating of the docs is like the interpretation of the Constitution and our laws. It varies from person to person, judge to judge.
This is laughable.
Who are you to say the documentation of ArmageddonMUD or the Constitution of the United States of America is a living breathing document?
Quote from: Race: Elf
Due to their nature as runners, all elves find riding mounts to be a shameful act.
Since skimmers do not rely on mounts to steer them and you can not run on silt, I do not see any reason for an elf not to ride on a skimmer.
Quote from: Sephiroto on May 19, 2009, 07:31:36 PM
As for your question I believe that a c-elf not leaving the city is, for a greater part, a tribal/racial thing.
Quote from: Race: Elf
All elves have a cultural bent toward both wandering and thievery.
All elves, including city elves, migrate across the known world. City elves are just tied to living within the cities.
If an elf is a tribe of his own, I don't see what the issue with leaving a city regularly is. (other than the fact that they cant run or ride on anything, of course.)
Quote from: Eternal Strife on May 19, 2009, 05:28:09 PM
Like the OP of the thread in ask the staff, elves can't run on silt. Are they too proud for skimmers even if it is the only way of transportation?
The problem with this is that a skinny would, normally, not own a skimmer. If I were a C-elf, I wouldn't trust being on something that floats with a crew of people that I don't trust. What happens if they want to take advantage of my situation? They take advantage of it. I've known all my life that humans love to harass elves for no other reason than we are better than them. This could all be a trick to kill the skinny in the group. I don't ride in wagons because my tribe doesn't own the wagon and I don't trust someone else to be in charge of my life. That is why I don't make good slaves.
Hmm.. here's an idea: silt elves. They're like city elves, just that they don't leave the skimmers.
Quote from: Delstro on May 19, 2009, 10:29:51 PM
The problem with this is that a skinny would, normally, not own a skimmer.
That's a stretch.
Quote from: Delstro on May 19, 2009, 10:29:51 PM
If I were a C-elf, I wouldn't trust being on something that floats with a crew of people that I don't trust.
That's akin to saying you don't trust the weapon you wield. A skimmer to an elf would be considered a tool, just like any other race. As for the crew, who says they weren't picked by the elf for their trustworthiness after years of testing said crew's loyalty?
...I don't think it's much of a stretch.
No more than a human, normally, wouldn't own a skimmer.
Those that could afford them are the vast minority of their species. Whether they'd have the inclination to spend sid ON a silt skimmer is another question
Quote from: Armaddict on May 20, 2009, 01:22:53 AM
...I don't think it's much of a stretch.
Ok.
Can you explain?
I got it, by Jove!
A tribe of elves that decide to move across the sea!
Or a tribe that decides to become stilt-sea pirates.
+5 FW
Quote from: FantasyWriter on May 20, 2009, 01:54:14 AM
I got it, by Jove!
A tribe of elves that decide to move across the sea!
Or a tribe that decides to become stilt-sea pirates.
+5 FW
It'll never happen. As the staff said, elves don't ride silt skimmers.
You know. Because, uh...
They're proud?
QuoteOk.
Can you explain?
I think he explained it pretty well, just that you called it a stretch, even though he refers to documentation and how it could, very possibly, relate to the situation at hand. I am inclined to think that there's a little more 'unf' behind the dislike for the decision just because it's new, and people want to try it out, but exclusion of races makes it feel meh.
Me? I'm inclined to think an elf would think, "Can't walk there? Can't run there? Krath, why go somewhere with no one to scam, not much to hunt, and very probable death without even being able to stand on my own feet?"
But. No matter what reasons are discussed with most of you, even the staff's...I'm also inclined to think it wouldn't make much difference.
I could see a very ballsy and very bold elf ride in a silt skimmer if only to con all the stupid roundear or dwarven sea-mates aboard. This would probably be as rare as the chance of any group of roundears or dwarves being stupid enough to let an elf ride with them on a skimmer.
A skimmer filled with a tribal group of elves would probably be even less likely, unless it was a last option/survival of the tribe kind of thing.
When I saw the Staff response in Ask the Staff I rolled my eyes so hard I almost passed out.
::)
Quote from: Marc on May 20, 2009, 01:26:17 AM
Whether they'd have the inclination to spend sid ON a silt skimmer is another question
Why would elves spend sid on a skimmer when they can steal one and become pirates!? ;D
Quote from: Rhyden on May 20, 2009, 04:21:17 AM
A skimmer filled with a tribal group of elves would probably be even less likely, unless it was a last option/survival of the tribe kind of thing.
I see very few reasons for anyone to be out there on the silt for the time being.
Quote from: Armaddict on May 20, 2009, 04:03:31 AM
Me? I'm inclined to think an elf would think, "Can't walk there? Can't run there? Krath, why go somewhere with no one to scam, not much to hunt, and very probable death without even being able to stand on my own feet?"
Taking over skimmers and having someone else pay for them at a cheaper, but expensive, price or some other ransom would be enough to catch the interests of some elves.
QuoteTaking over skimmers and having someone else pay for them at a cheaper, but expensive, price or some other ransom would be enough to catch the interests of some elves.
Which, in this instance, is akin to saying that an elf would drive a wagon to provide it for cheaper to get money, or would offer rides on a kank for cheaper to get money.
Quote from: Armaddict on May 20, 2009, 05:13:53 AM
QuoteTaking over skimmers and having someone else pay for them at a cheaper, but expensive, price or some other ransom would be enough to catch the interests of some elves.
Which, in this instance, is akin to saying that an elf would drive a wagon to provide it for cheaper to get money, or would offer rides on a kank for cheaper to get money.
No it isn't.
But you know how things work in games like this. You never have ONE black sheep, you have a flock. Like the recent surge in gemmer population, people seem to forget that often times in games like this, the norm IS bucking the trend.
Quote from: 5 day lifespan on May 20, 2009, 10:31:04 AM
But you know how things work in games like this. You never have ONE black sheep, you have a flock. Like the recent surge in gemmer population, people seem to forget that often times in games like this, the norm IS bucking the trend.
Hah, so true! I remember being baffled at one time that I picked a really cheesy concept, only to learn that I'm the only one who did it.
Yes, but think about ALL the people who wanted to be "An outcast elf that rides mounts," or "The dwarf with hair," or "The well adjusted half-elf." I'm sure one of the imms could get on and regale us with the dozens of people who wanted to be "unique" by "going against the docs" and being the "One Exception." There are loads.
The notion of a tribe of elven pirates DOES amuse me. But only if they harness silthorrors as living mounts. Like bizarre floating fremen.
That will entertain me. For the three seconds before it consumes my skimmer.
'Holy fucking shi-"
"Welcome to Armageddon!"
Quote from: Allegria on May 20, 2009, 09:39:54 AM
I dislike the idea of anybody telling people how to interpret their own character. With that said, you obviously have to abide by documentation or else the game world wouldn't get anywhere. I also believe that documentation needs to be ignored at times. This is a key example. Telling people that their characters cannot do something is silly. There could be a perfectly good IC reason for an elf to ride in a skimmer yet staff simply tells you, "no". It is obvious they are trying to retain some sort of tradition where elves fill the sneaky, cloak-n-dagger underworld roleplay of the MUD but that's also very restrictive to the game world. You will always have your black sheep and generally you can't say anything to a player who decides to roleplay an insane character. If a city-elf is completely insane and rides mounts and goes on skimmers, that's a viable reason. Yet we as players are told we can't roleplay this? Unless I am mis-construing information being given here.
The point here is that the elf would be insane
because he chooses to ride a kank or pilot a silt skimmer, it shows a disturbed
elven mentality and point of view, just as a sociopath is insane because they behave without heed for human concepts of empathy, restraint or fear. An elf has an inborn psychological disposition towards self-ability or "pride" in everything they are able to do: they perceive their abilities (and the abilities of their tribe) as supreme definitions of who they are. It's this non-human sense of self that results in an elf's lack of trust for anything that isn't himself or his tribe -
to trust someone is to incorporate the recipient of that trust into your very being, and as such isn't given lightly to anyone who isn't tribe (thus the concept of elven testing). Now riding a mount, that's comparable to the tremendous sense of loss and grief that must assail a human who has lost their legs and must rely upon a wheelchair for locomotion -
the elf is cutting away that pride in their own self, their ability to do something on their own - if we again take the example of the human paraplegic that in order to travel fast over a scorching desert without getting tired a human had to cut his own legs off every time he got into a wheelchair and suffer the feeling that he'd never get them back, that is comparable to how an elf would feel about hopping on a kank's back.
The prospect of exploring the silt sea aboard a skimmer, even if the skimmer was crewed by people the elf trusted and was of appreciated construction, would highly unappealing to an elf, I'd imagine, due to the complete lack of control over the situation, perhaps summed up with the idea that the elf's feet aren't on the ground - they can't control and internalise their surroundings in a way that suits their non-human senses of self.
Phew, I am sure the above will be unpopular and I stress that these are personal interpretations of the racial roleplay documents. I think it comes down to the difficulties in role-playing non-human characters - a dwarf always has a foci because of a complicated psychological affliction that all dwarves are born to have, the best way to get over what can be seen as restrictive rules is to realise that a "foci" to the dwarf isn't a defined mental variable, it can't be summed up with a single statement, even though the player controlling them can - it's something that defines who they are and is the cumulation of countless mental factors.
Quote from: Allegria on May 20, 2009, 11:09:58 AM
I'm not talking about magickers or muls or the rare occurrences of classes and races. I'm talking about people who strictly go against the enforced documentation. Ie: Dwarves without foci. Elves who ride kanks. Cheery half-elves that are accepted. Intelligent half-giant.
The point is the documentation shouldn't be a ruleset. It should be a universally accepted guideline. If you enforce documentation like rules you just get threads like these which I think are good for debate, but in the end they mean nothing if staff just simply respond with a resounding, "no".
Well, the problem with that is, yeah, the exception
will be the norm. The gemmer thing already proves a point - problem with Arm is once you get full permission, you do get full permission.
The whole exception thing is excellent for fantasy novels, but if you allow anyone to play a cheery ½ elf, at least half of the players will do it at any one time. It's perfectly fine for a single-player game, but in a multiplayer game, it leads to some massive inconsistencies. Sure, you can imagine that every (v)NPC breed out there is a dick, but you encounter 3 happy PC ½ elves, it ruins everyone's game.
So, yeah, it's a sacrifice. Nobody wants to be the norm, so the staff simply have to say "no elves on skimmers" because they know that everyone will want an elf on a boat as soon as they say "ok".
So, how fast would an elf have to run to be able to run on silt?
Quote from: Thunkkin on May 20, 2009, 11:46:55 AM
So, how fast would an elf have to run to be able to run on silt?
If we take custard as an example, it's possible to run on it, despite the fact that it's a liquid owing to how it compresses when put under pressure (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnGCtTekRJ8). Maybe silt is similar, just need to run a little faster.
Quote from: Thunkkin on May 20, 2009, 11:46:55 AM
So, how fast would an elf have to run to be able to run on silt?
Spec app whirran elf messiah who walks across the silt sea trying to get humans to trust him enough to step off their skimmers and follow him.
(so he can loot their corpses, of course)
Quote from: Thunkkin on May 20, 2009, 11:46:55 AM
So, how fast would an elf have to run to be able to run on silt?
Aided by magick? That'd be cool... :o
I think it's worth remembering that the elven attitude toward mounts/wagons/etc. doesn't have to be rational. In other words, you can't expect that they can just reason their way out of perceiving something as shameful.
It reminds me of questions about why more people wouldn't just overcome their fear and hatred of magickers, and realize how useful they are. Likewise, it's because fear and hatred often aren't logical.
Quote from: Allegria on May 20, 2009, 12:05:35 PM
Quote from: Thorg on May 20, 2009, 11:33:20 AM
The point here is that the elf would be insane because he chooses to ride a kank or pilot a silt skimmer, it shows a disturbed elven mentality and point of view, just as a sociopath is insane because they behave without heed for human concepts of empathy, restraint or fear. An elf has an inborn psychological disposition towards self-ability or "pride" in everything they are able to do: they perceive their abilities (and the abilities of their tribe) as supreme definitions of who they are. It's this non-human sense of self that results in an elf's lack of trust for anything that isn't himself or his tribe - to trust someone is to incorporate the recipient of that trust into your very being, and as such isn't given lightly to anyone who isn't tribe (thus the concept of elven testing). Now riding a mount, that's comparable to the tremendous sense of loss and grief that must assail a human who has lost their legs and must rely upon a wheelchair for locomotion - the elf is cutting away that pride in their own self, their ability to do something on their own - if we again take the example of the human paraplegic that in order to travel fast over a scorching desert without getting tired a human had to cut his own legs off every time he got into a wheelchair and suffer the feeling that he'd never get them back, that is comparable to how an elf would feel about hopping on a kank's back.
The prospect of exploring the silt sea aboard a skimmer, even if the skimmer was crewed by people the elf trusted and was of appreciated construction, would highly unappealing to an elf, I'd imagine, due to the complete lack of control over the situation, perhaps summed up with the idea that the elf's feet aren't on the ground - they can't control and internalise their surroundings in a way that suits their non-human senses of self.
Phew, I am sure the above will be unpopular and I stress that these are personal interpretations of the racial roleplay documents. I think it comes down to the difficulties in role-playing non-human characters - a dwarf always has a foci because of a complicated psychological affliction that all dwarves are born to have, the best way to get over what can be seen as restrictive rules is to realise that a "foci" to the dwarf isn't a defined mental variable, it can't be summed up with a single statement, even though the player controlling them can - it's something that defines who they are and is the cumulation of countless mental factors.
I don't think the elf would be insane. Psychologically he might be just fine. Pride is not a psychological condition, it's an emotion and a sense of yourself. To state that every elf has to be proud of his ability to run is not realistic. Furthermore the city-elves already do not have any ability whatsoever to keep up in the sands with their cousins, so even if they are the same race, why would a city-elf have this pride? Comparing it to them having their legs cut off is a huge stretch of the imagination. Why would they feel that why? Without some understanding of the mind we can't even argue this point. The docs simply say, "This is how it is, period." There is no room for debate. If there was then you wouldn't be penalized for playing a city-elf that rides. What if the city-elf was born and raised amongst humans? What if he thought long and hard to himself and said, "You know what. This is stupid. If I walk in the sands I might die. If I ride this animal I won't." To think that an elf is not capable of this line of thought is impossible. Even if it's already an enforced documentation, I'm of the opinion that any concept is do-able even if it bends the documentation.
I don't mind the fact that desert elves have this mindset so much because they actually can run like olympic long-distance endurance runners. City-elves on the other hand cannot, and this is the reason I would see a much different mindset with them. Even so, I could come up with a thousand reasons why a city-elf or desert-elf would ride a mount and not really care.
Pride isn't something you're born with. You learn it through actions and from those around you.
Pride isn't a psychological condition for human beings, no. What elves experienced isn't pride, it is called pride by humans because that is what it resembles but that doesn't mean it exists in the same parameters as human pride, which is what my post was trying to convey.
The city elf has this pride because he is genetically predisposed to defining himself by what he personally can do: where a human would say: "My name is Amos and I like stealing, I've trained for years." an elf would say: "My name is Haddeem and I can lift a purse without a sound, my wits are as sharp as the blades I can carve myself." or a dwarf would say "I am Tokk, I will take the coins of others after watching them carefully so that I will one day steal the Chosen Lady Allaba's signet ring from her finger and thus I will be able to pass as a noble". It isn't that they choose to do so, it's just how their minds work, how they approach the world.
The comparison to having their legs chopped off was to demonstrate the mutilation of their sense of self they'd feel by substituting the labour of another for something they are physically enabled to do. I also explain my reasoning in my last post.
Your point on an elf raised by humans is countered by the example of half-elves. Breeds who are raised by either parent in that environment still feel the emotional void and struggles that defines the half-elf race due to them
not being human and having a mind that is structured in a dissimilar way to a humans. When the documents say "No. Just no." this is shorthand for a more long-winded explanation for, as with this example, something that is core to the elf mindset - what humans would call "pride" but an elf would call "self".
An elf raised by a human would also be pretty messed up anyway for various other reasons but not in as straightforward a way as "Hey I can't run so I'll hop on a kank."
"Pride" is something elves are born with. It defines who they are, just as what humans would call "focus" defines what dwarves are.
As for "it couldn't not ever happen" the docs say that in order to save their own life an elf -might- choose to use a mount, I imagine this is comparable to the scene in the movie Saw where the character realises he's going to die unless he saws off his own foot.
Again I stress that this is my imagining of the framework outlined in the docs.
Personally I think that city elves just aren't meant to leave the cities that they're from. I don't even think too much about the whole riding argument, because the documentation about elves makes it very clear that they are territorial and don't like to leave their tribal 'areas.' That area might be a quarter of a city, an entire city, or a certain stretch of desert--and leaving there shouldn't be too common. Granted, there are exceptions, but I still think the no-riding mindset would apply even then.
Quote from: Yam on May 20, 2009, 07:16:58 AM
Quote from: Armaddict on May 20, 2009, 05:13:53 AM
QuoteTaking over skimmers and having someone else pay for them at a cheaper, but expensive, price or some other ransom would be enough to catch the interests of some elves.
Which, in this instance, is akin to saying that an elf would drive a wagon to provide it for cheaper to get money, or would offer rides on a kank for cheaper to get money.
No it isn't.
It isn't.
Quote from: Race: Elf
Due to their nature as runners, all elves find riding mounts to be a shameful act (though they can usually forgive the use of mounts by other races).
* You can not run across silt - The only means of travel across it is magick and skimmers.
* Skimmers are not powered by mounts. On the other hand, wagons are.
* Mounts can not travel across the silt.
If elves can not ride skimmers, I think we should at least know the reason why and be able to discuss the issue. Prove to me (the playerbase) whats so damn shameful about taking the 'only' source of transportation across the silt.
This only adds to the list of things elves (city elves especially) can not do, limiting them compared to the other races.
Quote from: Allegria on May 20, 2009, 12:05:35 PM
To state that every elf has to be proud of his ability to run is not realistic.
...
Pride isn't something you're born with. You learn it through actions and from those around you.
Quote from: Helpfiles
Due to their nature as
runners, all elves find the riding of mounts (and usually, riding in
wagons) to be an extremely shameful act--though a few can forgive the
riding habits of other races. In other words, elves will never ride on
mounts or in wagons, as to do so would be to insult one of the few
things they are proud of: their natural speed and endurance on the run.
I think the documentation makes it clear that elves are all
born with pride in their physical ability to run. The fact that the city elf race doesn't have it is no excuse--it just reflects a different lifestyle choice on the part of the city elf tribes in question. They'd still have the same racial pride in their abilities.
Like a paraplegic Nazi being proud of his physical superiority over the Mutt races.
It's all pretty much a load of contrived bollocks.
Elves do not ride. It is an insult to the one thing elves are UNIVERSALLY proud of, their conceived ability to run.
Elves do not ride on wagons. See above.
Elves do not ride on skimmers. ?
Elves DO use transportation magicks because it comes from themselves.
Questions:
Is the elven running -thing- natural or cultural?
If an elf built a skimmer with his own hands for whatever reason, would he use it?
If an elf had a mount that could fly, would he use it? What if he raised it himself?
Do all elven magickers universally believe their magick comes from them and not some horned god, elemental plains, or whatever else humans believe?
An elf allows a magicker friend to cast magick on him. Would the elf allow transportation magicks to be used?
Would an elf use a magickal item that granted transportation effects?
I'm saying its not just the culture. Yes, its true, the elven mindset comes from the tribal societies in which they live. But elves are predisposed towards living in those sorts of societies because of some innate psychological/biological force. Are you saying that there's no basic psychological difference between elves and humans on Zalanthas?
My argument is that elves already have pride in their running abilities psychologically ingrained within them. Culture only reinforces it.
Quote from: jcljules on May 20, 2009, 01:35:45 PM
My argument is that elves already have pride in their running abilities psychologically ingrained within them. Culture only reinforces it.
You can't be born with a pride, that makes no sense.
Elves are born 'proud' of their running ability. The numerous elven cultures in the world only reinforce that.
Please reconcile this stance of elven nature and running with magick and skimmers. TIA
QuoteThis was specifically brought up at the staff meeting, and we discussed it for a bit.
Answer: no.
Thusfar...I -really- don't see anything, anything at all in this thread, that is very unlikely to have crossed the staff's mind before an actual discussion, not a simple brushing aside. It was brought up specifically, briefly discussed, and decided. I don't think it's going to change...and based off of the above quote (and the following is an assumption, still, even with the above quote, but a pretty good one , I think)...
Quote from: Eternal Strife on May 20, 2009, 12:37:20 PM
Quote from: Yam on May 20, 2009, 07:16:58 AM
Quote from: Armaddict on May 20, 2009, 05:13:53 AM
QuoteTaking over skimmers and having someone else pay for them at a cheaper, but expensive, price or some other ransom would be enough to catch the interests of some elves.
Which, in this instance, is akin to saying that an elf would drive a wagon to provide it for cheaper to get money, or would offer rides on a kank for cheaper to get money.
No it isn't.
It isn't.
Yes. It is. And there's going to be a derailed concept elsewhere about what is insistently called the 'limiting' of races, instead of the very important 'defining' them as roles and races that are different from each other.
Quote from: Armaddict on May 20, 2009, 06:10:01 PM
Quote from: Eternal Strife on May 20, 2009, 12:37:20 PM
Quote from: Yam on May 20, 2009, 07:16:58 AM
Quote from: Armaddict on May 20, 2009, 05:13:53 AM
QuoteTaking over skimmers and having someone else pay for them at a cheaper, but expensive, price or some other ransom would be enough to catch the interests of some elves.
Which, in this instance, is akin to saying that an elf would drive a wagon to provide it for cheaper to get money, or would offer rides on a kank for cheaper to get money.
No it isn't.
It isn't.
Yes. It is. And there's going to be a derailed concept elsewhere about what is insistently called the 'limiting' of races, instead of the very important 'defining' them as roles and races that are different from each other.
If you don't mind, Armaddict, give me valid reason to believe that riding on a skimmer is the equivalent to riding on a wagon or mount.
Quote from: Eternal Strife on May 20, 2009, 06:52:40 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on May 20, 2009, 06:10:01 PM
Quote from: Eternal Strife on May 20, 2009, 12:37:20 PM
Quote from: Yam on May 20, 2009, 07:16:58 AM
Quote from: Armaddict on May 20, 2009, 05:13:53 AM
QuoteTaking over skimmers and having someone else pay for them at a cheaper, but expensive, price or some other ransom would be enough to catch the interests of some elves.
Which, in this instance, is akin to saying that an elf would drive a wagon to provide it for cheaper to get money, or would offer rides on a kank for cheaper to get money.
No it isn't.
It isn't.
Yes. It is. And there's going to be a derailed concept elsewhere about what is insistently called the 'limiting' of races, instead of the very important 'defining' them as roles and races that are different from each other.
If you don't mind, Armaddict, give me valid reason to believe that riding on a skimmer is the equivalent to riding on a wagon or mount.
They're both made of wood!
And both are not elf-powered.
QuoteIf you don't mind, Armaddict, give me valid reason to believe that riding on a skimmer is the equivalent to riding on a wagon or mount.
1. He no longer has the option to run at his pace without leaving something behind (in this case, his life).
2. There is no display of the superior ability of his, the superior fitness, the superior endurance, that makes his race superior.
3. It is no longer movement or travel by means of his own power or one of his tribe, it is harnessing some other power. (i.e. Magick comes from me, this other thing doesn't)
4. It acknowledges a weakness of the elf to not move by his own power someplace.
There's some off the top of my head. That are 'valid', as they have been throughout the entirety of the thread by more posters than just me.
Some people in Real Life take a look at a boat on water and think, ehhh....not for me. I like to think it's built into elves to think of it in the same manner with all these sorts of things.
Quote from: Eternal Strife on May 20, 2009, 06:52:40 PM
If you don't mind, Armaddict, give me valid reason to believe that riding on a skimmer is the equivalent to riding on a wagon or mount.
Quote from: Yam on May 20, 2009, 07:15:04 PM
They're both made of wood!
Ha!
Quote from: FantasyWriter on May 20, 2009, 07:19:08 PM
And both are not elf-powered.
Not powered by a tribe of elves and the magickal currents of silt? :( Or did you mean one made out of elf corpses?
Quote from: Armaddict on May 20, 2009, 07:23:05 PM
1. He no longer has the option to run at his pace without leaving something behind (in this case, his life).
2. There is no display of the superior ability of his, the superior fitness, the superior endurance, that makes his race superior.
3. It is no longer movement or travel by means of his own power or one of his tribe, it is harnessing some other power. (i.e. Magick comes from me, this other thing doesn't)
4. It acknowledges a weakness of the elf to not move by his own power someplace.
There's some off the top of my head. That are 'valid', as they have been throughout the entirety of the thread by more posters than just me.
Some people in Real Life take a look at a boat on water and think, ehhh....not for me. I like to think it's built into elves to think of it in the same manner with all these sorts of things.
Some nice points here...
When you related to a the Real Life scenario, you mentioned that some things not for 'some people', but I think there are 'some elves', prone to wandering (as said in the documents), that would eat the silt up on a skimmer. Everyone isn't made or thinks the same.
QuoteWhen you related to a the Real Life scenario, you mentioned that some things not for 'some people', but I think there are 'some elves', prone to wandering (as said in the documents), that would eat the silt up on a skimmer. Everyone isn't made or thinks the same.
Yes, yes I did. :D
I'm not trying to say that it's an unforgivable offense, but rather what the standard should seem like. I don't think it should be exactly commonplace, and should probably make most people lift their eyebrows and think, "Huh, never seen that before." That's the average person thinking that.
However, maybe the guy who sells skimmers...over the course of the years, he may just give an odd look and think, "Seen it a couple times before." A hard line has to be made though. One of my big fears in this game is literally being overrun by the 'I'm one of the few exceptions' mentality which ends up appearing or being dominant.
There are a lot of elves in the Byn and Kurac. Kurac has lots of posts in Red Storm.
Kurac also has lots of silt skimmers. Some of these Kuraci elven sergeants must be going out on silt skimmers. Hell, I seem to remember plenty of elves going out on silt skimmers back when they were first around.
It just seems very odd and hackneyed that the staff suddenly disallowed elves from skimmering it up. Especially when they make up such a (comparatively) sizable percentage of Bynners and Kuracis.
Quote from: Yam on May 20, 2009, 11:37:16 PM
Kurac also has lots of silt skimmers. Some of these Kuraci elven sergeants must be going out on silt skimmers. Hell, I seem to remember plenty of elves going out on silt skimmers back when they were first around.
not true? it was a big thing back in the day when kurac bought TWO. now, apparently, they have NONE.
Quote from: Agent_137 on May 21, 2009, 02:03:00 AM
Quote from: Yam on May 20, 2009, 11:37:16 PM
Kurac also has lots of silt skimmers. Some of these Kuraci elven sergeants must be going out on silt skimmers. Hell, I seem to remember plenty of elves going out on silt skimmers back when they were first around.
not true? it was a big thing back in the day when kurac bought TWO. now, apparently, they have NONE.
If you ever want me to play L4D with you you better fucking agree with me.
What I could come up with to defend their not riding on skimmers, for the sake of being devil's advocate here...
There is no one on the Silt Sea to steal from except people on other Skimmers.
Why take the chance of stealing from a Skimmer crew out at Sea when they will just come back to shore eventually anyway?
Why risk your neck going out to find 'treasure' on the Sea of Silt when you can convince the people that -do- do that to give it to you at a steal of a price on land.
How does sailing the Sea of Silt benefit your tribe, when its bounty will come back to shore anyway?
Going out onto the Sea is dangerous, it is a gamble with your life. I've never seen an elf gamble without loaded dice, or a kruth card up their sleeve. You can't rig the Sea of Silt travel game.
I can't get away from danger if it approaches. Every confrontation is either win, or lose. An immobile elf is a dead elf.
Finally, elves never liked the show Deadliest Catch.
Quote from: Dan on May 21, 2009, 02:17:42 AM
Finally, elves never liked the show Deadliest Catch.
Aw. Why not? I fucking loved that show.
/derail
Personally, I see the points of not letting the elves ride silt skimmers, and I see the points for letting them ride silt skimmers. I say put it up in the documentations that they don't -normally- ride silt skimmers - but not make it a firm and final "No, elves aren't allowed. Nope, nut-uh, no budging."
It's unrealistic to think that one or more elves might not be interested in crossing the silt, or taking a silt expedition due to history and/or quirks of said elfie. It's a little ridiculous in my opinion to think that nothing will ever come up that would have an elf seeking out the greater beyonds of the silt.
F' you round-ear, I'm not riding that silt-ma-jig!
How come no one has posted about how (non-military house) nobles aren't really allowed to go on silt skimmers? The documentation already prevents them from hunting, going to the 'rinth, sifting for spice, and doing other activities that are dangerous and dirty, all because of some stupid noble pride. [/parody]
Seriously, this discussion confuses me. Where did this notion that every character (or at least that elves) should be able to experience every geographic part of the game come from?
Quote from: Marauder Moe on May 21, 2009, 09:19:53 AM
Seriously, this discussion confuses me. Where did this notion that every character (or at least that elves) should be able to experience every geographic part of the game come from?
I think you may be generalizing here. The complaint that I'm seeing is that one specific group - city-elves - are restricted in ways that most other non-karma and even low-level karma roles are not. You'll notice that no one is complaining that desert elves can't hang out in cities or get jobs in cities. The disappointment that I'm sensing here is:
1) City-elves cannot travel or effectively operate outside cities
2) The two main (non-underworld) organizations that hire elves require travel outside cities
3) Said organizations are filled with npc elves, yet a PC city-elf is a hindrance or inconvenience to these organizations
4) IC support for city-elf roles in Allanak is slim, though things seem to be looking up in the north. (I've never played an elf, so I don't know - I'm just summarizing what I'm seeing here. Maybe there are tons of IMM staff running c-elf plots and clans in Allanak).
5) Silt-skimmers potentially offered something that elves could "do." A useful role that they could fill in a clan. Some seem disappointed that this is not the case.
6)
City-elves, especially those in Allanak, are thus confined in ways that are not compensated by other aspects of city-elf life. Your example of a noble is correct - they are restricted. However, playing a noble comes with all sorts of other perks.
7) Yes, we want to avoid a slippery slope of balancing everything. However - city-elves as a highly confined race may be "realistic" and "according to the docs," but it's not particularly fun for most players.
8) Most players play this game to have fun.
I'm trying to think of hard-coded race/classes that have these limits with no compensated perks. Nobles are restricted, but get all sorts of wealth, political power, npc guards, plots, etc. Same with Templars. Gemmers are restricted, but get amazing abilities in return and access to (apparently) some really cool stuff. Desert elves (and other tribals?) face a variety of restrictions, but get access to neat clans with awesome docs as well as coded perks that make them truly masters of their environments. Half-giants have restrictions, but they're awesomely strong and can find a variety of roles and play styles. Dwarves face some mild restrictions (focus), but again, this doesn't limit what they can do.
I don't think people want total balance. I think they want fun and they're pointing to something that discourages certain types of fun
without any pay-off. This doesn't mean it should be changed, but it also means that we shouldn't expect people to play city-elves. This leads, then, to further variance from the docs since the high percentage of the population that is city-elves is not as frequently represented. There are complaints that there are too many magickers/gemmers. Why? Because, apparently, there is something about them that is appealing and fun. There are complaints that there are not enough elves. Why? Because apparently, there is something about them that is not appealing and fun.
C-Elves are fun. I have fun playing city elves. If you're not having fun playing to the racial limitations, according to documentation, maybe you should play something more fun? Not to be snarky or anything, but really.. I won't play halflings or mantises or assholes or vivaduans because they're not fun to me. If you really want someone who has to explore far from the city or doesn't like stealing or can be an asset in a non-underworld clan, maybe you shouldn't play a (city) elf?
But seriously, I like elves as is. I have no intention of bringing one on a skimmer or a wagon or any such thing. The limitations and the social stigma brings a unique flavor to roleplaying them. IMHO, being at the bottom of the social ladder is a perk in itself.
Quote from: SMuz on May 21, 2009, 09:57:57 AM
C-Elves are fun. I have fun playing city elves. If you're not having fun playing to the racial limitations, according to documentation, maybe you should play something more fun? Not to be snarky or anything, but really.. I won't play halflings or mantises or assholes or vivaduans because they're not fun to me. If you really want someone who has to explore far from the city or doesn't like stealing or can be an asset in a non-underworld clan, maybe you shouldn't play a (city) elf?
Precisely! Which is why I'll never play one. I was just pointing out that those who want slightly expanded opportunities for c-elves aren't calling for total game balance, but rather, more opportunities and variety for 40% (?) of the city's population. And moreover, that the PC c-elf opportunities do not seem to match NPC c-elf opportunities, which seems a bit odd, since usually PCs represent more variety and possibilities than NPCs, not less.
Your post wasn't snarky, though. I'm in agreement - people shouldn't play something that isn't fun. But there may be a reason why (the last time I may or may not have been in Allanak) there didn't seem to be a particularly vibrant and varied c-elf city population.
I do however totally see a C-Elf conning HUMANS to get onto the skimmer, hunt for treasures, then steal all the loot when they get back. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Quote from: 5 day lifespan on May 21, 2009, 10:57:57 AM
I do however totally see a C-Elf conning HUMANS to get onto the skimmer, hunt for treasures, then steal all the loot when they get back. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Or maybe c-elves standing on the shore selling "Rent Your Own Skimmer" boat rides.
Elves don't ride.
This in no way includes skimmers.
Whatever anyone may say - there's no logic to elves not wanting to use skimmers - coz of the simple reason that they cannot traverse the Silt Sea on their own legs.
Skimmers are not live mounts.
Elves are the most practical and pragmatic of races on Zalanthas - and should never be taken lightly or for-granted.
When it comes to survival, or achieving their goals (twisted as those may be), elves might even do the most un-elven of things.
Quote from: Incognito on May 21, 2009, 03:31:52 PM
Elves don't ride.
This in no way includes skimmers.
Whatever anyone may say - there's no logic to elves not wanting to use skimmers - coz of the simple reason that they cannot traverse the Silt Sea on their own legs.
Skimmers are not live mounts.
Elves are the most practical and pragmatic of races on Zalanthas - and should never be taken lightly or for-granted.
I agree.
Great statement Incognito. Only problem is it clashes directly with Staff's statement that elves do not ride skimmers. At all. None. Nope. Reconcile!
Edited: To clarify, I'm an actor in a 7up commercial. What's my motivation? If there is no underlying cause than are we really to believe that hundreds of thousands of sentient beings all reached the same conclusion (don't ride skimmers!) independently? Any scientist will tell you that the odds on that are improbable at best.
All this talk about what elves should and shouldn't do makes me want to roll up a d-elf, flip the bird to my tribe, join the Byn, ride mounts, buy myself a motherfucking wagon, and start a silt-skimmer crew composed of nothing but half-giants.
So bad.
Quote from: Marc on May 21, 2009, 04:16:39 PM
Edited: To clarify, I'm an actor in a 7up commercial. What's my motivation? If there is no underlying cause than are we really to believe that hundreds of thousands of sentient beings all reached the same conclusion (don't ride skimmers!) independently? Any scientist will tell you that the odds on that are improbable at best.
well, ICly, silt skimmers are not a new thing. it would have been decided and reinforced over time.
Yep. Reinforced how?
I can come up with plenty of specific reasons why individual elves would not ride on a silt skimmer.
Elves do not ride mounts/wagons because of a racial pride in their ability to walk/run any distance better than some dumb animal (erroneously as the code would have it). This pride (?) is instilled in all elves, d or c, tribed or tribeless. It is clear, cutndry with an easy to understand explanation.
The skimmer bit is clear, cutndry, however the explanation is lacking. I'm looking for the reason why ALL elves will not get on a skimmer. It cannot be environment since there are WAAAAAAAYYYYYY to many different societies in the known world to have grown up in/around not to mention hermits and the like who grow up and live around no one. Is it an inner-ear thing? Do elves get uncontrollably nauseous if they are not standing on their own feet?
That's what I'm looking for. Every explanation that has been shared in this thread has explained why SOME elves will not get on a skimmer. We have no explanation why EVERY elf would stay off. To control that many individuals, there has to be something.
I'll also repeat a few of these since no one took a stab:
Will an elf ride a flying mount?
Will an elf allow transportation magicks to be cast on him? What would an elf do if he suddenly learned he could fly?
Will an elf use a magickal item that instills transportation magick?
Reconcile the above with skimmers, mounts and the elven mindset. "Because" doesn't work.
This decision to make elves unable to ride silt skimmers -seems- arbitrary.
Any explanation from staff on this one, even if brief?
Quote from: Reiloth on May 21, 2009, 11:49:39 PM
This decision to make elves unable to ride silt skimmers -seems- arbitrary.
Any explanation from staff on this one, even if brief?
They probably feel that they need to do it in order to maintain consistency with their previous no-elves-in-wagons ruling.
City elves should just be able to ride.
I can understand the d-elf thing, obviously. City elves wouldn't care at this point.
City elves have awesome thieve-tastic potential but they're fucktardedly unplayable if you want to go anywhere.
The guy who posted "I'm really proud of my inability to run." has it nailed.
fuck-tarded.
Quotefucktardedly unplayable if you want to go anywhere.
...I've played it just fine.
Quote from: Synthesis on May 22, 2009, 12:32:34 AM
They probably feel that they need to do it in order to maintain consistency with their previous no-elves-in-wagons ruling.
Here's a better one :
Elves will never build wagons or silt skimmers. They might be the most intelligent of the populous races in the Known World, but they're nomadic by nature. These machines, and they are machines, require a level of industry unmanageable without permanent structures.
That leaves wagons and silt skimmers that were built by human hands. Do you think elves would feel alright relying on the work of shorties?
I've played with a C-elf combat character in a clan that largely spends its time in the wild. What did I do with him? I let him run free where appropriate, and things were great.
Quote from: Dalmeth on May 22, 2009, 03:06:00 AM
Quote from: Synthesis on May 22, 2009, 12:32:34 AM
They probably feel that they need to do it in order to maintain consistency with their previous no-elves-in-wagons ruling.
Here's a better one :
Elves will never build wagons or silt skimmers. They might be the most intelligent of the populous races in the Known World, but they're nomadic by nature. These machines, and they are machines, require a level of industry unmanageable without permanent structures.
That leaves wagons and silt skimmers that were built by human hands. Do you think elves would feel alright relying on the work of shorties?
I've played with a C-elf combat character in a clan that largely spends its time in the wild. What did I do with him? I let him run free where appropriate, and things were great.
Permanent structures? Oh...you mean like, uh...the Blackwing Outpost?
Quote from: Synthesis on May 22, 2009, 04:24:28 AM
Quote from: Dalmeth on May 22, 2009, 03:06:00 AM
Quote from: Synthesis on May 22, 2009, 12:32:34 AM
They probably feel that they need to do it in order to maintain consistency with their previous no-elves-in-wagons ruling.
Here's a better one :
Elves will never build wagons or silt skimmers. They might be the most intelligent of the populous races in the Known World, but they're nomadic by nature. These machines, and they are machines, require a level of industry unmanageable without permanent structures.
That leaves wagons and silt skimmers that were built by human hands. Do you think elves would feel alright relying on the work of shorties?
I've played with a C-elf combat character in a clan that largely spends its time in the wild. What did I do with him? I let him run free where appropriate, and things were great.
Permanent structures? Oh...you mean like, uh...the Blackwing Outpost?
Shhh.
Quote from: Synthesis on May 22, 2009, 04:24:28 AM
Quote from: Dalmeth on May 22, 2009, 03:06:00 AM
Quote from: Synthesis on May 22, 2009, 12:32:34 AM
They probably feel that they need to do it in order to maintain consistency with their previous no-elves-in-wagons ruling.
Here's a better one :
Elves will never build wagons or silt skimmers. They might be the most intelligent of the populous races in the Known World, but they're nomadic by nature. These machines, and they are machines, require a level of industry unmanageable without permanent structures.
That leaves wagons and silt skimmers that were built by human hands. Do you think elves would feel alright relying on the work of shorties?
I've played with a C-elf combat character in a clan that largely spends its time in the wild. What did I do with him? I let him run free where appropriate, and things were great.
Permanent structures? Oh...you mean like, uh...the Blackwing Outpost?
You made me smile.
C-elves are the Amish of Zalanthas.
The sneaky, point-eared elf, as he leans on his sand-rake, says in allundean,
"What do ye thinken the round-ears are up to now, Hezekiah?"
The grey-eyed, small-footed elf says nothing, his face impassive as he observes the skimmer on the horizon.
The sneaky, point-eared elf, after a pause, says in allundean,
"Always rushing about on their infernal machines."
With a grunt of affirmation, the grey-eyed, small-footed elf nods.
The grey-eyed, small-footed elf, speaking at last, says in allundean,
"Ye may be getten back to your work now, Ezekiel. Harvesten by itself the spice won't while ye gazen at the round-ears."
Amish speak like Yoda? ;)
Quote from: Ourla on May 22, 2009, 10:34:37 AM
Amish speak like Yoda? ;)
Nah, just heavily influenced by medieval German. My parody is poor, since really, I've never spoken more than a word or two to an amish person.
Example:
http://www.geocities.com/amishgimp/amishphrase.htm
If the issue was discussed by Staff and the answer was no - I guess there's nothing to debate about.
Althought personally, I'm not too sure of the IC logick behind an entire race excluding an entire portion of the Known World, which may or may not hold great treasure, knowledge and other goodies or badies, just because their "legs" cannot take them there.
Perhaps elves have secret air-balloons that we don't know of, which they use discreetly, to traverse the Silt Sea?
Quote from: Synthesis on May 22, 2009, 04:24:28 AM
Permanent structures? Oh...you mean like, uh...the Blackwing Outpost?
Thread over. Synthesis wins.
I just can't think of a reasonable excuse not to exclude skimmers from the no riding thing for city elves. They don't have an alternative, unless they somehow can walk on the top of the silt or swim in it without dying like everyone else. I could totally see a family of c-elves that run a skimmer, pirating others, etc. Scamming people on trips aboard or hauling cargo.
Think snow shoes. It's a possabilty. Maybe...? Why do you think Stormers wear webbed boots? They're not physicists but they must have figured out the relationship between increased surface area and bouyancy. The Silt Sea isn't made of a watery substance. Skimmers actually roll across the silt, not float, if I'm not mistaken. As to how they are propelled...I guess I'll find that out ICly....because I'm not considering that they are drawn by domesticated silt-horror, as an argosy might be drawn by mekillots.
Maybe elves -could- manage to transit the Silt Sea on foot. But, why would they want to? Why -would- they want to. The Silt Sea is fecking scary dude. There's so much Silt you can barely see or beathe, eternal storms, and big scary monsters (silt-horrors). Elves aren't a stupid race. If I was an elf I'd probably leave the experimentation to the foolish round-ears and stubborn short-legs. It's not that I can't ride a skimmer, but I won't. ...Unless I was a Kuraci elf or a Byn elf assigned on a skimmer escort.
Fortune and glory.
Yeah, all this "elves are too smart to go out on the silt sea" makes me laugh, especially since every motherfucking city-elf in the Known World gets the 'steal' skill, which arguably is the dumbest fucking thing you could -possibly- attempt to do, if you're trying to keep your ass safe.
Quote from: Synthesis on May 22, 2009, 03:26:56 PM
every motherfucking city-elf in the Known World gets the 'steal' skill
Thanks, I didn't know that.
I was under the assumption that players generally play sneaky roles with c-elves, not that they race gets the steal skill by default. Keep in mind that you don't always need the skill to steal from someone.
Quote from: Sephiroto on May 22, 2009, 03:27:59 PM
Thanks, I didn't know that.
it's a fair assumption! I mean, come on! they're neckers! you thought all that talk about them stealing from you was just talk?
The arguments in this thread got weeeeaaaak.
Quote from: Yam on May 22, 2009, 03:21:36 PM
Fortune and glory.
Lol, I don't see how sailing into a place full of sand and big monsters is going to be fortunate or glorious :P Why would an elf want to do such a thing, unless it was to rob everyone on the boat and swim out of there.
Quote from: Synthesis on May 22, 2009, 04:24:28 AM
Permanent structures? Oh...you mean like, uh...the Blackwing Outpost?
Yeah, and it contradicts every other elven tribe in the known world, doesn't it?
Welcome to the exception that proves the rule. I believe you've met.
Quote from: SMuz on May 22, 2009, 09:49:14 PM
Quote from: Yam on May 22, 2009, 03:21:36 PM
Fortune and glory.
Lol, I don't see how sailing into a place full of sand and big monsters is going to be fortunate or glorious :P Why would an elf want to do such a thing, unless it was to rob everyone on the boat and swim out of there.
I'm pretty sure all original settlers had some sort of gain in mind.
Quote from: Dalmeth on May 22, 2009, 09:51:22 PM
Yeah, and it contradicts every other elven tribe in the known world, doesn't it?
*ding* Wrong.
Not all elven tribes are nomadic or semi-nomadic. I'd wager that if they could afford it, the Sun Runners would build an outpost of their own for trade.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on May 22, 2009, 09:53:31 PM
Quote from: SMuz on May 22, 2009, 09:49:14 PM
Quote from: Yam on May 22, 2009, 03:21:36 PM
Fortune and glory.
Lol, I don't see how sailing into a place full of sand and big monsters is going to be fortunate or glorious :P Why would an elf want to do such a thing, unless it was to rob everyone on the boat and swim out of there.
I'm pretty sure all original settlers had some sort of gain in mind.
A little OOC thinking there, most settlers in Zalanthas seem to be either looking for a safe place to squat (with water) or fleeing from some danger. If they're happy where they are (the lazy elves being happier than anyone to sit in the same spot), then they shouldn't really want to go
to some dangerous place. If there's gold on the other side of the seas, I'm sure it's perfectly elven to get others to bring it back for them.
Quote from: SMuz on May 22, 2009, 09:49:14 PM
Quote from: Yam on May 22, 2009, 03:21:36 PM
Fortune and glory.
Lol, I don't see how sailing into a place full of sand and big monsters is going to be fortunate or glorious :P Why would an elf want to do such a thing, unless it was to rob everyone on the boat and swim out of there.
Well I always thought you were a bit of a stupid bastard.
Please lock the thread. Degraded into nothing helpful and...the above.
Quote from: SMuz on May 22, 2009, 09:49:14 PMWhy would an elf want to do such a thing...
Why would a human? Half-giant? Mul? Half-elf? Dwarf?
Quote from: Yam on May 22, 2009, 10:05:47 PM
Well I always thought you were a bit of a stupid bastard.
It's unclear to me why anyone would think this was acceptable behavior. Don't.
-- X