I've encountered some players who take on an attitude of TOTAL gender neutrality. Going so far as to attack anyone who would be offended by someone calling a man a woman; or vice versa.
This IMHO is fucking retarded.
The gender pomo police are far more unlikely to exist in this harsh environment.
Sexual division of labour: Women spurt kids/raise kids (generally). Men forage while their partner spurts/raises kids.
Commonalities between those of the same sex invariably lead to cultural differences between the sexes.
This sort of reality in no way suggests the superiority of one sex over the other; which I feel was the true intention of the docs relating to sexism.
Thanks.
There is no sexism in Zalanthas.
Period.
End of story.
(http://eyjan.is/freedomfries/wp-content/uploads/magnus/folder_2/get_a_brain_morans.jpg)
Edited: A picture is worth a thousand words?
I'm pretty sure that's what I'm saying.
But unfortunately people take it to mean that there's no difference between the sexes.
Quote from: Ampere on August 20, 2008, 10:30:08 PM
I'm pretty sure that's what I'm saying.
But unfortunately people take it to mean that there's no difference between the sexes.
Well then, to make it more clear, there
is total gender neutrality on Zalanthas.
The docs and the Staff have clearly stated, time and TIME AGAIN:
There is no difference, beyond the physical appearance and the fact that women bear children.
There are no cultural differences, period. Women don't raise children just because they bear them. Men aren't any more macho than women. Women aren't any more docile or demure than men. They do the same jobs, drink the same ale, shovel the same shit, and kick the same amount of ass.
The same applies for sexual preferences, if I recall correctly: homosexuality isn't perceived any differently than heterosexuality, except perhaps where a child is expected, but in that situation, I suppose arrangements could easily be made.
This is actually one of the topics I'm fairly sick of hearing about. GET OVER IT, seriously.
Fine. I've reviewed other forums and it is quite clear.
I must remind myself that we're dealing with aliens, not terrans.
Please don't pull a Catherine Mackinnon and equate the cultural differences between genders to sexism. Sexism sucks; pride is empowering.
(tangent alert)
Child rearing men have been known to breast feed (pygmies central africa); I would love to see some male wetnurses walking around.
Hey, look.
It's this thread again.
There are a few cultural differences between genders...or specific roles for the different genders, if you will...but they exist as portions of organizational/political structures.
There are no general cultural assumptions about gender roles or what it "means" to be male or female in Zalanthas. There are very few ideas that one gender or the other should wear or should not wear any type of item. Child-rearing is a "best person for the job" affair. Etc.
This is just something you'll have to deal with in order to be able to play by the docs.
And yeah, Mood, want some popcorn? *passes*
The term sexism encompasses far more than just prejudice, by the by.
zomg. Last post.
*rolls in an industrial popcorn maker*
Thanks. I had no idea.
Since it seems like you're new to the issue of sexism here in ARM, Ampere, I'll add something: Whether or not it's "realistic" for there to be no sexism in the game, it was a specific design choice made by staff so that women (and men) could play any roles they wanted without being hampered by applied sexism from the real world. Not everyone wants to have to play a male character in order to roll up that buff warrior, nor does everyone want to have to play a female in order to be a dainty aide. Same thing with homosexuality or bisexuality; people who prefer to play characters of those orientations aren't required to wade through RL prejudices in order to do so.
The whole point being that this kind of inclusiveness means we will attract and retain a broader group of players, especially a higher proportion of female players, than we would otherwise.
Quote from: Ampere on August 20, 2008, 10:21:33 PM
I've encountered some players who take on an attitude of TOTAL gender neutrality. Going so far as to attack anyone who would be offended by someone calling a man a woman; or vise versa.
This IMHO is fucking retarded.
The gender pomo police are far more unlikely to exist in this harsh environment.
Sexual division of labour: Women spurt kids/raise kids (generally). Men forage while their partner spurts/raises kids.
Commonalities between those of the same sex invariably lead to cultural differences between the sexes.
This sort of reality in no way suggests the superiority of one sex over the other; which I feel was the true intention of the docs relating to sexism.
Thanks.
It's true that in reality, the nasty environment that Zalanthas portrays would result in the most brutal extremities of sexism.
Yet sometime long ago, there was a concerted effort to change that in Armageddon. I remember in past arguments when this was brought up, that some went so far in their defense of it as to claim human biology in Zalanthas was different making men and women equally strong on average and thus no gender role differences. I haven't seen many men giving birth, sadly.
In any case. It's not worth discussing. It's such a dead topic. People will be unyielding stubborn on their own interpretation no matter what.
IMO, if everyone just played dwarves, it wouldn't be a problem.
There's no "interpretation." It's a matter of playing by the docs.
New forum thread: "How to improve sexist behavior" and "How to be a better racist" !
bad juju. people are bad
Quote from: Clearsighted on August 20, 2008, 11:36:15 PM
IMO, if everyone just played dwarves, it wouldn't be a problem.
Ha! Those stumpy little bastards are horny as hell. Female dwarf PCs are pretty rare, so the ones that show up are, um, "popular".
Quote from: Ampere on August 20, 2008, 10:56:04 PM
(tangent alert)
Child rearing men have been known to breast feed (pygmies central africa); I would love to see some male wetnurses walking around.
I know, right? Every few years I post about male lactation, but nobody ever takes me up on it. :( I can't make a nursing father, because everyone would know it was me.
http://www.unassistedchildbirth.com/miscarticles/milkmen.html
http://www.unhinderedliving.com/nursingfather.html
Dudes have nipples, dudes have glands attached to those nipples. With the right stimulation male mammals (and females who have not had children) can produce milk. Pregnancy produces hormones and whatnot that get you ready for lactation, but lactation is possible without pregnancy.
On Earth females are probably capable of producing more milk, but in Zalanthas males and females are equally capable of doing everything but giving birth, so Zalanthan males ought to be pretty good at breast feeding too. There are plenty of weird mutations (http://media.photobucket.com/image/argyria/ViceCougar/72-candidate.jpg?o=1) that don't raise an eyebrow in Zalanthas, a guy swollen whose breasts are swollen up to an A cup breast feeding a baby should hardly register at all.
(http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff54/kris10palmer_2/formike.jpg)
Those links made a shiver run down my spine.
The bad kind. :o
I just want to say take it easy on Ampere even though I know it is frustrating to see the same threads pop up again and again. He seemed to be pretty quick to to back down and let us know he wasn't aware of the situation and I think the same courtesy should be given to him/her.
Brandon
I just want to third on male lactation.
It does sound REALLY GROSS, but it is actually possible on earth and therefore might as well be considered possible in zalanthas. Though it takes a lot of stimulation I'm told for it to happen.
I just wanted to post that generally the PC's on Zalanthas are considered the "exception".
The PC's are allowed to be friends with magickers.
The PC's are allowed to not be a religious zealot towards the ruler of their city state.
The VNPC's and most of the NPC's follow all of the rules of the documentation for personality traits.
If you want to play a hardcore sexist PC for whatever reason, go ahead. You are a PC, you are the exception.
Pretty much every PC I play is sexist to an extent.
I run into SO many fragile F'me female PC's it makes it HARD to treat them like they are my equal in game, when the vast majority are playing your typical fragile RL female.
In my defense, I have ran into a few "hardass" female PC's, and I always treat them like "One of the guys"...Those of you who have played merc females with me know that to be true, I'll gut you as fast as the next guy.
And on that same note if I run into male characters that are playing little frilly boys, I treat them like little frilly boys.
I guess what I am saying is technically all character's should not follow gender roles...But since a vast majority that I have seen do, atleast to some extent, I am and will continue be sexist in game, atleast to some extent.
I personally like making very pretty female pc's. I look at it as being as much an exercise in wish fulfillment as the skinny pale guy who never does much fighting playing the rugged, muscular guy. But I -don't- think it's fair to assume that just because another pc -looks- baddass, or -looks- to be a dainty f-me that they are what they look like. I know someone doesn't have to have 400 pounds of muscle to be deadly, or can, quite possibly, have all the muscle in the world simply because they like strength-training and weight-lifting. I mean, the big muscular guy and the dainty chick, both with no training, well, the muscular probably -is- more likely to kick your ass in a fight, but thats simply due to the muscle mass. IMO. I know that if I can choose what I look like, it'll probably be better than average, I don't think that's any reason to treat those pc's as less than equal IC. I mean, I would be more quick to think, 'she doesn't have any obvious combat skills, she doesn't walk around in loads of armor, and she's not covered in scars, chances are she's either got really good connections, or she is likely close to someone who does, how else would she get by like that?'. That's just me personally. And, to me that goes -either- way. Same for guys as girls, just using the feminine because a) I am a female, and, b) The post about f-me females. And, furthermore, I've noticed that there -are- rather a lot of nice-looking female pcs, and would like to see more of that in male pcs.
I often make female f-mes too.
Mudsexers beware.
I also make f-me males though. In fact, I made the most f-me male in the entire history of the game. He died of starvation with under 5 hours played because my connection dropped.
QuoteI run into SO many fragile F'me female PC's it makes it HARD to treat them like they are my equal in game, when the vast majority are playing your typical fragile RL female.
Quoted for truth.
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on August 21, 2008, 01:17:24 PM
I personally like making very pretty female pc's. I look at it as being as much an exercise in wish fulfillment as the skinny pale guy who never does much fighting playing the rugged, muscular guy. But I -don't- think it's fair to assume that just because another pc -looks- baddass, or -looks- to be a dainty f-me that they are what they look like. I know someone doesn't have to have 400 pounds of muscle to be deadly, or can, quite possibly, have all the muscle in the world simply because they like strength-training and weight-lifting. I mean, the big muscular guy and the dainty chick, both with no training, well, the muscular probably -is- more likely to kick your ass in a fight, but thats simply due to the muscle mass. IMO. I know that if I can choose what I look like, it'll probably be better than average, I don't think that's any reason to treat those pc's as less than equal IC. I mean, I would be more quick to think, 'she doesn't have any obvious combat skills, she doesn't walk around in loads of armor, and she's not covered in scars, chances are she's either got really good connections, or she is likely close to someone who does, how else would she get by like that?'. That's just me personally. And, to me that goes -either- way. Same for guys as girls, just using the feminine because a) I am a female, and, b) The post about f-me females. And, furthermore, I've noticed that there -are- rather a lot of nice-looking female pcs, and would like to see more of that in male pcs.
Why? I think people should be allowed to make whichever type of character they want and that's looks included. That doesn't mean I won't balk at some descriptions that describe their globe like breasts or tiny waist or a man's rugged good looks... but it's their choice. Personally, I have alot of fun writing up rather unattractive PCs and I feel it's my prerogative to do so. But I guess that means I just have dashing good looks IRL.
Brandon
Quote from: FuSoYa on August 21, 2008, 01:33:03 PM
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on August 21, 2008, 01:17:24 PM
I personally like making very pretty female pc's. I look at it as being as much an exercise in wish fulfillment as the skinny pale guy who never does much fighting playing the rugged, muscular guy. But I -don't- think it's fair to assume that just because another pc -looks- baddass, or -looks- to be a dainty f-me that they are what they look like. I know someone doesn't have to have 400 pounds of muscle to be deadly, or can, quite possibly, have all the muscle in the world simply because they like strength-training and weight-lifting. I mean, the big muscular guy and the dainty chick, both with no training, well, the muscular probably -is- more likely to kick your ass in a fight, but thats simply due to the muscle mass. IMO. I know that if I can choose what I look like, it'll probably be better than average, I don't think that's any reason to treat those pc's as less than equal IC. I mean, I would be more quick to think, 'she doesn't have any obvious combat skills, she doesn't walk around in loads of armor, and she's not covered in scars, chances are she's either got really good connections, or she is likely close to someone who does, how else would she get by like that?'. That's just me personally. And, to me that goes -either- way. Same for guys as girls, just using the feminine because a) I am a female, and, b) The post about f-me females. And, furthermore, I've noticed that there -are- rather a lot of nice-looking female pcs, and would like to see more of that in male pcs.
Why? I think people should be allowed to make whichever type of character they want and that's looks included. That doesn't mean I won't balk at some descriptions that describe their globe like breasts or tiny waist or a man's rugged good looks... but it's their choice. Personally, I have alot of fun writing up rather unattractive PCs and I feel it's my prerogative to do so. But I guess that means I just have dashing good looks IRL.
Brandon
Just making a statement of an opinion. That's all. I know I don't want to make some hideous character myself, but more power to the people that want to. Perhaps I just need sleep and ran a little in the opposite direction of what I was going for, or humor doesn't translate well over text. Essentially, it seems like people want to bash that there are -so many- dainty f-me pc females, I just want to know, if it creates equality issues, why not make dainty f-me males rather than expecting others to change the type of pc's they write in order for them to be equal. Did not mean it as a complaint, more as commentary.
I'd be satisfied if, when rolling up a fragile f-me PC, you refrained from prioritizing strength and/or endurance first.
It's a little disconcerting when the whip-thin, waifish lass judo tosses your maximum height/weight warrior, takes his back, submits him from behind, and then delivers a critical-strike punch to the testicles.
If you're going to be whip thin and waifish: agility and wisdom should come first, just to avoid silly variations on the above scenario. (Note: this goes for male PCs as well.)
Also note: declining the prioritization option and then shrugging helplessly at your "lucky roll" does not absolve you of responsibility for the lack of congruence between your stats and your appearance.
I like f-mes and I shelter them and I love them like they are little lost kittehs, then I train them into my little f-me assassins. It's too bad they never really get to that part, though.
Anyway, if you are a f-me, seek me out in game, you start with a 1000 sid bonus if I find you pretty enough.
Quote from: Synthesis on August 21, 2008, 01:45:29 PM
I'd be satisfied if, when rolling up a fragile f-me PC, you refrained from prioritizing strength and/or endurance first.
It's a little disconcerting when the whip-thin, waifish lass judo tosses your maximum height/weight warrior, takes his back, submits him from behind, and then delivers a critical-strike punch to the testicles.
If you're going to be whip thin and waifish: agility and wisdom should come first, just to avoid silly variations on the above scenario. (Note: this goes for male PCs as well.)
Also note: declining the prioritization option and then shrugging helplessly at your "lucky roll" does not absolve you of responsibility for the lack of congruence between your stats and your appearance.
But where's the fun in NOT having a fragile looking person with absolutely incredible strength?
Quote from: Synthesis on August 21, 2008, 01:45:29 PM
I'd be satisfied if, when rolling up a fragile f-me PC, you refrained from prioritizing strength and/or endurance first.
It's a little disconcerting when the whip-thin, waifish lass judo tosses your maximum height/weight warrior, takes his back, submits him from behind, and then delivers a critical-strike punch to the testicles.
If you're going to be whip thin and waifish: agility and wisdom should come first, just to avoid silly variations on the above scenario. (Note: this goes for male PCs as well.)
Also note: declining the prioritization option and then shrugging helplessly at your "lucky roll" does not absolve you of responsibility for the lack of congruence between your stats and your appearance.
Ok, yes. This makes sense to me. Though my attributes are usually wisdom, endurance, strength, agility. I like making klutzes that walk everywhere, though, too. But yes, it does seem like bullshit for someone to roll with strength as the high attribute. I wouldn't necessarily say the same about endurance, but strength, yes. You make an excellent point.
My issue isn't with stats or even necessarily with descriptions (though the flawless pale-skinned *warrior* with a glossy clean tumble of hair down to her KNEES that smell like fresh wildflowers is just - stupid...)
It's with with the flawless pale-skinned warriors who BEHAVE like weak-willed women who are not capable of wiping their asses without a big strong he-man manly man to approve of her actions.
And, it's with the characters of male PCs, who are more than happy to go along with that kind of spineless behavior, thus promoting the sexism that everyone keeps stating so emphatically doesn't exist.
It exists, it's actively promoted, and it is encouraged by people who dive right in and suck it up like it was iced tea on a hot afternoon in Alabama.
Should it exist? Should it be promoted? Should it be encouraged? Nope. But until the majority of people stop making these characters, promoting this behavior, and encouraging it by being active participants, it will continue, and stating that it doesn't exist, doesn't make it stop existing.
Does anyone else find it funny that sexism is so taboo but virulent, hateful racism is everyday?
Quote from: Clearsighted on August 21, 2008, 05:37:57 PM
Does anyone else find it funny that sexism is so taboo but virulent, hateful racism is everyday?
No, because the racism we have in ARM is nothing like real-world racism. It's based on actual race, not skin color.
Quote from: Clearsighted on August 21, 2008, 05:37:57 PM
Does anyone else find it funny that sexism is so taboo but virulent, hateful racism is everyday?
No, I think we've lost all elven players long ago.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 21, 2008, 05:39:11 PM
No, because the racism we have in ARM is nothing like real-world racism. It's based on actual race, not skin color.
I disagree. The racism we experience in ARM is nothing like the racism we've experienced in the last 100 years because it's based on established, independent cultures vying for resources, not an intellectual framework based on ignorance.
Roleplaying no difference between gender would be easy if every woman in Arm wouldn't randomly go off on bitchy tangents and act like Drama Gurls like their RL counterparts. Then we'd be able to take you all seriously.
EDIT: Yeah that's just a broad statement. I didn't mean to offend anyone. Play by the docs, girls!
Quote from: Dalmeth on August 21, 2008, 06:15:11 PM
Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 21, 2008, 05:39:11 PM
No, because the racism we have in ARM is nothing like real-world racism. It's based on actual race, not skin color.
I disagree. The racism we experience in ARM is nothing like the racism we've experienced in the last 100 years because it's based on established, independent cultures vying for resources, not an intellectual framework based on ignorance.
Dunno. I think most RL racism in the last 100 years has to do with established independent cultures vying for resources, if you look at racism in the world beyond just the American South circa 1960s. Look at Darfur, for instance, or Kosovo. Or the whole Congo thing.
Quote from: Dalmeth on August 21, 2008, 06:15:11 PM
I disagree. The racism we experience in ARM is nothing like the racism we've experienced in the last 100 years because it's based on established, independent cultures vying for resources, not an intellectual framework based on ignorance.
Man, Dalmeth, I was trying to get away with a quick, succinct answer...which you have now ruined :) I'm too -tired- for this crap!
Here's the long version of what I was trying to say:
We don't have sexism in ARM because we have female (and male) players who want to be able to play female (and male) characters, but want a "safe haven" of sorts away from the issues of sexism they regularly face in Real Life.
But, we do have racism in ARM because there is no Real-Life counterpart to elves or dwarves. ARM racism is closer to species-ism than it is to RL racism. It's not about color or surface attributes. Therefore, someone who is African-American or Chinese or whatever can play ARM and deal with the racism of the game without it bringing up issues of real life racism.
The decision to allow an "ism" or not is dependent on how close the hot-button issue is to real life issues.
My raiders are typically VERY sexist.
My raiders are usually rapists.
(I only play straight characters, so, yeah)
Its hard for me to play a mean raider rapist without being sexist.
My PC's consider the opposite sex nothing but a vessel for his own enjoyment. Something he catches, like prey, like a lesser creature, then holds down, and gets his enjoyment, before killing them. Its hard to treat that object like it isnt naturally designed to be your subordinant and still play the role realistically.
So yeah, its ok to be extremely sexist sometimes, depending on the PC.
The girliest, sexiest girls are played by guys.
The girliest, sexiest men are played by girls.
The manliest, sexiest men are also played by girls.
Quote from: ale six on August 21, 2008, 07:24:20 PM
The girliest, sexiest girls are played by guys.
My insanely huge AIM list of real life women playing girliest, sexiest girls on Arm and providing me with endless dramaz daily prove j00 wrong!
Quote from: Desertman on August 21, 2008, 07:13:39 PM
So yeah, its ok to be extremely sexist sometimes, depending on the PC.
Well, it's technically okay to blatantly disregard the documentation if there's an extremely compelling ic reason to do so and it's happening with the minority of characters, rather than being the norm.
If it's happening consistently it is a problem. If everyone uses "but it's ic for my pc" as an excuse, we may as well not have docs at all.
Is it okay for me to play all of my elves as short, nature loving hippies that love magick and ride mounts? It completely disregards the documentation, but I'm sure I could write a convincing character history to justify it and keep it ic!
I don't think that advising people on the forum to disregard documentation is going to do anything positive at all for the game. I'd much rather that people actually tried to have fun while playing by the documentation instead of claiming to be the exception to the rule ever time to justify their continued inappropriate behaviour.
Edited to clarify: That's not
just aimed at dman, it also goes for silky smooth beautiful people, magick loving commoners and everything else disregarding the docs.
There's total gender neutrality on Zalanthas.
If it makes you feel better to play a male who gets pregnant, I say go ahead and do it.
Quote from: Desertman on August 21, 2008, 07:13:39 PM
My raiders are typically VERY sexist.
My raiders are usually rapists.
(I only play straight characters, so, yeah)
Its hard for me to play a mean raider rapist without being sexist.
My PC's consider the opposite sex nothing but a vessel for his own enjoyment. Something he catches, like prey, like a lesser creature, then holds down, and gets his enjoyment, before killing them. Its hard to treat that object like it isnt naturally designed to be your subordinant and still play the role realistically.
So yeah, its ok to be extremely sexist sometimes, depending on the PC.
Some of the above mentioned sexist raiders seemed to hold some women in higher regard than that. Or maybe they were just faking it.
Quote from: touringCompl3t3 on August 21, 2008, 07:36:54 PM
There's total gender neutrality on Zalanthas.
If it makes you feel better to play a male who gets pregnant, I say go ahead and do it.
False.
Quote from: Desertman on August 21, 2008, 07:13:39 PM
My raiders are typically VERY sexist.
My raiders are usually rapists.
(I only play straight characters, so, yeah)
Its hard for me to play a mean raider rapist without being sexist.
My PC's consider the opposite sex nothing but a vessel for his own enjoyment. Something he catches, like prey, like a lesser creature, then holds down, and gets his enjoyment, before killing them. Its hard to treat that object like it isnt naturally designed to be your subordinant and still play the role realistically.
So yeah, its ok to be extremely sexist sometimes, depending on the PC.
There are some who would claim that not raping men and women equally means you are blatantly running roughshod over the docs and are a horrible Arm player because of it.
So if I'm playing a merchant and you don't rape my PC, expect me to be extremely offended at your sexist intolerance.
/Sarcasm
//Or was it?
Quote from: touringCompl3t3 on August 21, 2008, 07:36:54 PM
If it makes you feel better to play a male who gets pregnant, I say go ahead and do it.
New dwarven focus!
[Probably more appropriate for "Ask the Staff", but I'm dropping it in here anyway.]
On the topic of sexual roles and the lack thereof: what's the idea behind a "feminine pair of shoes" or whatever that exact article of footwear is? What does "feminine" mean in a world like Zalanthas, anyway? Any old-timers want to maybe clear this up, from a game-evolution perspective? I can't remember for certain if any article of clothing is tagged as "masculine", but the same question would apply.
Note the clothing isn't "a female pair of shoes". To me, that would simply mean a pair of shoes that it is culturally-warranted to wear, the same way that even in Zalanthas, it seems women are the only folks typically wearing dresses. The word "feminine" has connotations that "female" doesn't.
Wow, I think we are trying to get a little too deep here. I think the feminine shoes just means they are girly shoes. Feel free to wear them if you have a male PC, I guess. Not my cup of tea, exactly... but I won't say anything except "nice shoes". Heh.
> eq
<worn in hair> an ivory hair pin
<worn on body> a low-cut red blouse
<worn on legs> a chitin-reinforced leather skirt
<worn on ankle> a small, jade songbird tattoo
<worn on feet> a feminine pair of leather shoes
> em Pushing through the swinging doors, @ stands facing ~muscular, hands on hips, feet spread, and jutting jaw set.
> l muscular [studying !muscular with a hard-eyed gaze]
> say (gruffly) Name's Amos. I heard tell you was lookin' for some badmen.
Quote from: Clearsighted on August 21, 2008, 07:56:17 PM
Quote from: Desertman on August 21, 2008, 07:13:39 PM
My raiders are typically VERY sexist.
My raiders are usually rapists.
(I only play straight characters, so, yeah)
Its hard for me to play a mean raider rapist without being sexist.
My PC's consider the opposite sex nothing but a vessel for his own enjoyment. Something he catches, like prey, like a lesser creature, then holds down, and gets his enjoyment, before killing them. Its hard to treat that object like it isnt naturally designed to be your subordinant and still play the role realistically.
So yeah, its ok to be extremely sexist sometimes, depending on the PC.
There are some who would claim that not raping men and women equally means you are blatantly running roughshod over the docs and are a horrible Arm player because of it.
So if I'm playing a merchant and you don't rape my PC, expect me to be extremely offended at your sexist intolerance.
/Sarcasm
//Or was it?
Yeah well, I don't think you just proved what you were trying to prove.
Rape is pretty much by definition a sex crime. The idea of a guy getting raped is somehow still outlandish and amusing to us.
Running around raping women is pretty obviously sexist. And if you want to get deeper into it, I don't really have any respect for anyone who wants to spend their free time pretending to rape women anyway.
I don't think feminine clothing equates to sexism.
I don't think men wearing skirts equates to non-sexism.
I do think the game needs more kilts, though. Perhaps they will be the popular style in one of Arm 2's cities.
Quote from: staggerlee on August 21, 2008, 10:12:57 PM
Quote from: Clearsighted on August 21, 2008, 07:56:17 PM
Quote from: Desertman on August 21, 2008, 07:13:39 PM
My raiders are typically VERY sexist.
My raiders are usually rapists.
(I only play straight characters, so, yeah)
Its hard for me to play a mean raider rapist without being sexist.
My PC's consider the opposite sex nothing but a vessel for his own enjoyment. Something he catches, like prey, like a lesser creature, then holds down, and gets his enjoyment, before killing them. Its hard to treat that object like it isnt naturally designed to be your subordinant and still play the role realistically.
So yeah, its ok to be extremely sexist sometimes, depending on the PC.
There are some who would claim that not raping men and women equally means you are blatantly running roughshod over the docs and are a horrible Arm player because of it.
So if I'm playing a merchant and you don't rape my PC, expect me to be extremely offended at your sexist intolerance.
/Sarcasm
//Or was it?
Yeah well, I don't think you just proved what you were trying to prove.
Rape is pretty much by definition a sex crime. The idea of a guy getting raped is somehow still outlandish and amusing to us.
Running around raping women is pretty obviously sexist. And if you want to get deeper into it, I don't really have any respect for anyone who wants to spend their free time pretending to rape women anyway.
I think Desertman meant it more from an angle of sexual orientation.
Is he being a sexist by not having his character rape as many men as he does women... or is he just playing a straight rapist?
Personally, I don't think sexual attraction to (and by extension, rape of) one gender over another automatically equates to sexism.
Of course, rape is not a sex-motivated crime, primarily, but this is not the place to get into it.
Quote from: Fathi on August 21, 2008, 11:54:14 PM
I think Desertman meant it more from an angle of sexual orientation.
Is he being a sexist by not having his character rape as many men as he does women... or is he just playing a straight rapist?
Personally, I don't think sexual attraction to (and by extension, rape of) one gender over another automatically equates to sexism.
Unfortunately it's hard to argue that without getting into this:
Quote from: Fathi
Of course, rape is not a sex-motivated crime, primarily, but this is not the place to get into it.
And you're absolutely right, that's not something that needs to be discussed here.
I probably shouldn't have said anything about the rape thing, it just gets under my skin and is
somewhat off topic.
I have only ever been raped by Zalanthan insects, and I am pretty sure those instances have been solely for procreation.
Quote from: Yam on August 22, 2008, 12:15:43 AM
I have only ever been raped by Zalanthan insects, and I am pretty sure those instances have been solely for procreation.
One of my elves was insect-raped for the enjoyment of the population of Allanak. :'(
And he survived!
Until he got raped again by Davaz :'(
F U KURAC!
My character is treated differently because she's a girl. Should I roleplay as though other people aren't roleplaying that my character is treated differently because she's a girl?
Hm.
I don't really want to do that.
Quote from: Is Friday on August 22, 2008, 12:13:29 PM
Should I roleplay as though other people aren't roleplaying that my character is treated differently because she's a girl?
Yep. Has always worked for me. Sometimes they just need a good, hard beating before they can understand that, yes, women ARE fighters and women ARE authority figures in Zalanthas ;) Warning: May cause groupies.
Quote from: Is Friday on August 22, 2008, 12:13:29 PM
My character is treated differently because she's a girl. Should I roleplay as though other people aren't roleplaying that my character is treated differently because she's a girl?
When playing youngish male characters, I haven't had a problem with youngish female characters ogling them, trying to buy them drinks at random, or striking up awkward and pointless conversations.
But I certainly don't let that stop me from doing it in reverse. :D
Quote from: staggerlee on August 21, 2008, 10:12:57 PM
Quote from: Clearsighted on August 21, 2008, 07:56:17 PM
Quote from: Desertman on August 21, 2008, 07:13:39 PM
My raiders are typically VERY sexist.
My raiders are usually rapists.
(I only play straight characters, so, yeah)
Its hard for me to play a mean raider rapist without being sexist.
My PC's consider the opposite sex nothing but a vessel for his own enjoyment. Something he catches, like prey, like a lesser creature, then holds down, and gets his enjoyment, before killing them. Its hard to treat that object like it isnt naturally designed to be your subordinant and still play the role realistically.
So yeah, its ok to be extremely sexist sometimes, depending on the PC.
There are some who would claim that not raping men and women equally means you are blatantly running roughshod over the docs and are a horrible Arm player because of it.
So if I'm playing a merchant and you don't rape my PC, expect me to be extremely offended at your sexist intolerance.
/Sarcasm
//Or was it?
Yeah well, I don't think you just proved what you were trying to prove.
Rape is pretty much by definition a sex crime. The idea of a guy getting raped is somehow still outlandish and amusing to us.
Running around raping women is pretty obviously sexist. And if you want to get deeper into it, I don't really have any respect for anyone who wants to spend their free time pretending to rape women anyway.
To verify, I only do rape RP IRL.
I am strictly a fade to black person in game regardless of if I am raping my latest victim or just having a "mate".
Though I dont think I have ever really had a mate, but if I did, I would be fade to black only.
And...
Running around raping women is pretty obviously sexist. If you are trying to say that my having a sexual preference for females and a sexual aversion to copulating with males makes me sexist...Well fuck it, I'm sexist, I dont put my penis, virtual or not, into anything that doesnt have a vagina.
I would really hate to think that the arguement here is..."If you arent bi-sexual, you are sexist."
Quote from: Malken on August 21, 2008, 07:34:19 PM
Quote from: ale six on August 21, 2008, 07:24:20 PM
The girliest, sexiest girls are played by guys.
My insanely huge AIM list of real life women playing girliest, sexiest girls on Arm and providing me with endless dramaz daily prove j00 wrong!
Hehe, ok ok, I'll be the one to ask....
RL girlfriend?
Quote from: brytta.leofa on August 22, 2008, 12:35:45 PM
Quote from: Is Friday on August 22, 2008, 12:13:29 PM
My character is treated differently because she's a girl. Should I roleplay as though other people aren't roleplaying that my character is treated differently because she's a girl?
When playing youngish male characters, I haven't had a problem with youngish female characters ogling them, trying to buy them drinks at random, or striking up awkward and pointless conversations.
But I certainly don't let that stop me from doing it in reverse. :D
You obviously don't play around any of my characters.
Quote from: Desertman on August 22, 2008, 01:00:55 PM
Quote from: Malken on August 21, 2008, 07:34:19 PM
Quote from: ale six on August 21, 2008, 07:24:20 PM
The girliest, sexiest girls are played by guys.
My insanely huge AIM list of real life women playing girliest, sexiest girls on Arm and providing me with endless dramaz daily prove j00 wrong!
Hehe, ok ok, I'll be the one to ask....
RL girlfriend?
Is that a yes or no question? Or you want to know which one in the AIM list is my gilfriend, or, gasp, her GDB handle?!
My girlfriend plays often around my current character, now you have to find out who my character is!
Quote from: Malken on August 22, 2008, 01:12:31 PM
My girlfriend plays often around my current character, now you have to find out who my character is!
And her characters are some of the least girly I've ever seen.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 22, 2008, 01:14:25 PM
Quote from: Malken on August 22, 2008, 01:12:31 PM
My girlfriend plays often around my current character, now you have to find out who my character is!
And her characters are some of the least girly I've ever seen.
Watching both of them makes me feel very girly, in a manly kind of way. Or maybe that's manly, in a girly kind of way.
Quote from: Malken on August 22, 2008, 01:12:31 PM
Quote from: Desertman on August 22, 2008, 01:00:55 PM
Quote from: Malken on August 21, 2008, 07:34:19 PM
Quote from: ale six on August 21, 2008, 07:24:20 PM
The girliest, sexiest girls are played by guys.
My insanely huge AIM list of real life women playing girliest, sexiest girls on Arm and providing me with endless dramaz daily prove j00 wrong!
Hehe, ok ok, I'll be the one to ask....
RL girlfriend?
Is that a yes or no question? Or you want to know which one in the AIM list is my gilfriend, or, gasp, her GDB handle?!
My girlfriend plays often around my current character, now you have to find out who my character is!
Wanted to know which GDB handle was your RL girlfriend. Thats juicy gossip. :)
And I know who your current pc is. hehe. I often fap it to your mudsexorz, you need better scan. Bwaahahha.
Quote from: Desertman on August 22, 2008, 01:18:03 PM
And I know who your current pc is. hehe. I often fap it to your mudsexorz, you need better scan. Bwaahahha.
Or to actually want to use it!
I like me an audience ^_^
Er, sorry for the derail, you can all go back to hating beautiful young ladies, now!
Quote from: ale six on August 21, 2008, 07:24:20 PMThe girliest, sexiest men are played by girls.
I've played some pretty girly men.
Quote from: Malken on August 22, 2008, 01:23:38 PM
Quote from: Desertman on August 22, 2008, 01:18:03 PM
And I know who your current pc is. hehe. I often fap it to your mudsexorz, you need better scan. Bwaahahha.
Or to actually want to use it!
I like me an audience ^_^
Er, sorry for the derail, you can all go back to hating beautiful young ladies, now!
I use your mudsex emotes IRL.
The wife is there, all bent over, I have printed out copies laying on her back....Reading glasses on....I must admit, sometimes, some of the things you do, are very hard to pull off IRL. The thing with the shoe and the half a kalan fruit was by far, the most taxing. (We substituted a cantelope for the kalan fruit, its all we had on hand at the time, and I was already hot and bothered from reading the text.)
Quote from: Tisiphone on August 22, 2008, 01:09:40 PM
Quote from: brytta.leofa on August 22, 2008, 12:35:45 PM
When playing youngish male characters, I haven't had a problem with youngish female characters ogling them, trying to buy them drinks at random, or striking up awkward and pointless conversations.
You obviously don't play around any of my characters.
More's the pity.
I do wish to point out that playing a male (and, presumably, a Tisiphonic female) under the age of 20 would be
pointless without the look echo.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on August 22, 2008, 01:31:57 PM
I do wish to point out that playing a male (and, presumably, a Tisiphonic female) under the age of 20 would be pointless without the look echo.
The look echo is hot.
In fact, I wish characters would "look" more. It can be very meaningful.
Quote from: Sokotra on August 21, 2008, 09:35:46 PM
Wow, I think we are trying to get a little too deep here. I think the feminine shoes just means they are girly shoes. Feel free to wear them if you have a male PC, I guess. Not my cup of tea, exactly... but I won't say anything except "nice shoes". Heh.
Hm . . . perhaps I wasn't being clear enough, although I think you actually summed up the question in one sentence:
QuoteI think the feminine shoes just means they are girly shoes.
In a world without ANY gender differences aside from child-bearing, does such a concept as "girly" exist? As in, characteristics that a girl would be more likely to have than a boy? This has actually been one of the few persistent stumbling blocks for my own rp, right alongside the Zalanthan concept of the inner life (Do they have a concept of the subconscious per se, for example?) and how to approach abstract things like Compassion and Honor that are typically considered pillar virtues in the Western world but may not exist in the same forms in our shared fictional playground.
I realize that an OOC decision was made to present a gender-neutral world. I applaud this. What I'm trying to get at is how to incorporate this,
as much as is feasible, into the role-play. As a necessary OOC creature, it's never going to be a perfect fit, but I'd still like to try.
For some reason, adapting thought-patterns and IC behaviors to be in line with despotic hierarchies and a pre-Renaissance (let alone Enlightenment) mindset hasn't been as difficulty as this particular bug-a-boo. Sorry for rambling.
I always thought that 'feminine' and 'masculine' with regards to clothing were meant to communicate their shape and look to the players, not any manner of cultural biases to the characters.
Quote from: Tisiphone on August 22, 2008, 02:03:11 PM
I always thought that 'feminine' and 'masculine' with regards to clothing were meant to communicate their shape and look to the players, not any manner of cultural biases to the characters.
So a "masculine" shoe might have, say, a more blocky style than a "feminine" shoe, but be worn interchangeably by either sex?
Something like that, yes. Bears up pretty well when you read the mdesc, I think.
I'm digging Tis' explanation. That actually works really well for me. Phew. Because those objects have always bothered me, previously.
Quote from: Tisiphone on August 22, 2008, 02:03:11 PM
I always thought that 'feminine' and 'masculine' with regards to clothing were meant to communicate their shape and look to the players, not any manner of cultural biases to the characters.
That's
exactly what I came here to post. We communicate in our prose using our own language with all its associations and signifiers that it has in our own world. Refusing to use any word that might be loaded with meaning in the real world or have origins that refer to specific historic or cultural phenomena would make the game impossible.
You can't even call someone's hair "long" without referencing cultural norms. What's "long" mean outside context?
In short... I agree with Tis.
I don't understand half of you people
Okay, I can understand both sides of the issue.
One -- sexism would prohibit role-play because it would force PCs into certain roles and stereotypes. Two -- not having any gender-roles also prohibits role-play because it's second nature for us in RL to have some kind of analogy for those portraying certain characteristics.
Would it help/ hinder/ have no affect if we assigned RL gender-roles to a new category of PC? What I mean is maybe in Arm those PCs who are 3rd born carry all the stereotypes we associate with a girl's girl? Maybe PCs who are 7th born are known to be "masculine/ aggressive/ dominate"?
Thus, for the sake of Role-play we'd have some IC references for stereotypes. Get what I'm saying?
Quote from: Tisiphone on August 22, 2008, 02:03:11 PM
I always thought that 'feminine' and 'masculine' with regards to clothing were meant to communicate their shape and look to the players, not any manner of cultural biases to the characters.
I agree.
Also I can think of at least one other article of clothing that's described as 'feminine', and in that context it seems to mean it's tailored to better fit a woman's body.
So basically, this thread is saying: If Lord Hardnose Tor comes along to oversee training one day wearing a silky white kalisiri, my character's supposed to see absolutely nothing out of the ordinary with it?
Quote from: Zoan on August 22, 2008, 06:42:58 PM
So basically, this thread is saying: If Lord Hardnose Tor comes along to oversee training one day wearing a silky white kalisiri, my character's supposed to see absolutely nothing out of the ordinary with it?
I generally don't play characters that would tell a Lord Tor how to dress.
It would depend whether that were an unusual outfit for the Lord. White isn't really a good Nakki color, so you could wonder about that and question whether it was properly fashionable and patriotic, or why he wasn't in Tor's colors. Kalisiri is a good Nakki outfit though.
http://www.armageddon.org/general/clothing.html#Allanak
It comes down to fashion and appropriateness of dress. I really wouldn't want to be the poor fool that tried to tell a Tor in his own Academy that he was out of fashion though.
Actually, according to the docs, white is always en vogue in Allanak.
QuoteHowever, the one staple of the Allanaki wardrobe is the color white. Trims may change, and colors may go in and out of style, but white is always in fashion.
(Sorry for the derail.)
Actually, white is always in fashion. It is green, and particularly pale green, that is a bad color in Allanak.
Edit: Err ... sorry, flurry. To add something further to the discussion, I couldn't really see my characters ever wearing anything intended for a woman. It's not only wierd to me OOCly, but it's sorta impractical ICly, frankly. No matter what you want to say about feminine and masculine, there are literal differences in what they are supposed to fit. Women's breastplates have spots for titties. Males' don't. Males' loin-coverings are more likely to have a little room in the groin for the genitals. In real life, there are other things that are literally impractical for switching from sex to sex, but this is Zalanthas. So I suppose a guy could go on and wear a dress if they like, or a corset or thong or whatever, but the reality of it is that they are not designed for the male body, and you'll probably have that bodice taken in a bit. Likewise, if you have a girl with tits of any size, it's probably worth remembering if you buy a masculine torso piece.
Not enough coffee today, you're right about the color, my mistake.
And yeah, 7DV I was assuming that if the Lord wore this feminine clothing regularly he'd had it tailored so that it'd fit right. Tighten up the cleavage, strap everything down so that nothing slips out of that nice lacy thing. :D
In all seriousness I think your biggest reason for criticizing someone's wardrobe is if it's unfashionable, ill fit (for 7DV), out of the ordinary for them, inappropriate for the job they're doing, or inappropriate for their station. That covers a lot of ground and would probably alleviate your concerns Zoan. ;)
Quote from: brytta.leofa on August 22, 2008, 12:35:45 PM
Quote from: Is Friday on August 22, 2008, 12:13:29 PM
My character is treated differently because she's a girl. Should I roleplay as though other people aren't roleplaying that my character is treated differently because she's a girl?
When playing youngish male characters, I haven't had a problem with youngish female characters ogling them, trying to buy them drinks at random, or striking up awkward and pointless conversations.
But I certainly don't let that stop me from doing it in reverse. :D
Oddly on the occasion I played a youngish male pc I did have that problem. Far more than I usually do.
I've played both genders and had both situations happen. I don't think it's bad at all, I think it's just what happens. If anything, I'd consider it very gender neutral for both sexes to be equally forthcoming!
Um, it is sort of annoying sometimes though, when it's a completely boring PC. (Sorry.)
I don't know about anyone else, but I really don't give two shits about Arma fashion.
Then don't post about it.
Some of us do.
Quote from: staggerlee on August 22, 2008, 07:11:07 PM
...your biggest reason for criticizing someone's wardrobe is if it's unfashionable, ill fit (for 7DV), out of the ordinary for them, inappropriate for the job they're doing, or inappropriate for their station...
There is nothing more to say after that. Excellent summary.
Quote from: Zoan on August 22, 2008, 06:42:58 PM
So basically, this thread is saying: If Lord Hardnose Tor comes along to oversee training one day wearing a silky white kalisiri, my character's supposed to see absolutely nothing out of the ordinary with it?
Leaving aside the social status issues, no, that's not the point. Your character would likely find it jarring, but not because he's being womanish; rather, because the clothes don't fit. He's dressing like a clown, not a transvestite.
However, the clothing doc does make it clear that there are differences in the way men and women dress. Numerous clothing items do, too.
I think a great solution to all this ambiguity would be some crossdressing NPCs.
I know of at least one.
This debate has come up time and time again.
The rules are clear, no sexism. Try to leave your gender roles at the door despite anatomy.
If you can't deal and I see it in game I am going to log it and send it to the IMMs pronto with my complaints.
If it is bothering you that BADLY then try and special app it along with your elf riding a kank.
I am discriminated against enough IRL, I don't want to have to deal with it in game.
Agreed with Bebop, and I'll go further - if you don't -want- to be treated like a delicate, feminine, needy, cloying, feminine she-tok, then don't roleplay one. If you roleplay that way, then don't get your silken furry panties in a bunch when people treat your character like one.
The same goes for people who want to play "manly men" but don't like it when people "depend" on them for "manly things." If you don't want your character to be treated like a piece of stud meat, then don't roleplay a piece of stud meat.
Quote from: Lizzie on August 25, 2008, 10:31:24 PM
Agreed with Bebop, and I'll go further - if you don't -want- to be treated like a delicate, feminine, needy, cloying, feminine she-tok, then don't roleplay one. If you roleplay that way, then don't get your silken furry panties in a bunch when people treat your character like one.
The same goes for people who want to play "manly men" but don't like it when people "depend" on them for "manly things." If you don't want your character to be treated like a piece of stud meat, then don't roleplay a piece of stud meat.
This.
In my book, it goes both ways. If you don't want to be "discriminated" against, then don't play into the stereotype. You can't expect to have no "sexism" against you unless your character deserves to be treated the same as everyone else. This, of course, goes for male characters, too. If there's a male character about who acts like a fainting, needy, "feminine" type, then he should be treated exactly like a female character who acts the same way.
I'd say that each gender has clothing that sets its own body form off to best advantage. So a haltar top, for example, on a male character would look ridiculous. It would look like he's trying to look like a woman, which he isn't. Same with form-fitting dresses. If they fit a male body properly, they'd look male and have a different name. If they sag and are tight in the wrong places, they look foolish on a man and make him look foolish.
Quote from: Lizzie on August 25, 2008, 10:31:24 PM
The same goes for people who want to play "manly men" but don't like it when people "depend" on them for "manly things." If you don't want your character to be treated like a piece of stud meat, then don't roleplay a piece of stud meat.
Duly noted.
Quote from: Salt Merchant on August 25, 2008, 11:33:15 PM
I'd say that each gender has clothing that sets its own body form off to best advantage. So a haltar top, for example, on a male character would look ridiculous. It would look like he's trying to look like a woman, which he isn't. Same with form-fitting dresses. If they fit a male body properly, they'd look male and have a different name. If they sag and are tight in the wrong places, they look foolish on a man and make him look foolish.
But again; foolish, not perverse. He's made the faux pas of dressing poorly, not of transgressing social sexual norms, since the latter don't exist in the Known World.
Quote from: Fathi on August 23, 2008, 12:42:18 PM
I think a great solution to all this ambiguity would be some crossdressing NPCs.
Seen it. He was in Tuluk and wore a skirt and .. perhaps heels, I don't recall. And had red red lips, and flirted with women.
What about semantic sexism? Sexism that is designed to be descriptive, not discriminatory.
Examples:
You throw like a girl.
Stop your sniveling and man up!
Ok, ladies, lets see what you can do. (When spoken to an all-male group).
He needs to grow a pair.
Be a man.
Cried like a little girl.
He's a dickless wonder.
These sorts of things are not insulting or discriminating against a specific woman, they do imply that women are inferior, weak, and emotionally unstable. Meanwhile men are strong, dependable, and emotionless. :-\ It seems like Zalanthans wouldn't have the preconceptions necessary to use, or even understand, these kinds of statements. "You throw like a girl" or "you fight like a girl" is meaningless. Which girl? Well, it is meaningless if you assume that girl=woman, if you assume that girl=child, then it makes sense, but it would probably be better to avoid confusion and just use "child".
Most of the time insulting men by referring to them as women, you can get the same point across by referring to them as children. It would be acceptable to insult both men and women who are particularly weak, weepy, or emotionally unstable by calling them immature or comparing them to children.
Racism might work too. Referring to a weak human as elfish (elfin?) could work. "You throw like an elf" doesn't seem to flow very well though. Still, comparing a human to an elf or half-elf is usually going to be insulting. Likewise, calling an elf humanish, or comparing an elf to a human or half-elf would be insulting. Having sex with an extremely muscular woman isn't like having sex with a man, it's like humping a dwarf. ;D Likewise, the Arnold Schwarzeneggers of Zalanthas would probably be sniggeringly compared to muls, because body builder levels of bulging muscle would probably be quite rare in Zalanthas -- Zalanthans may train for strength, but not to look like ripped, veiny, mutants, because that is just a waste of water and calories.
Eh?
Excellent suggestions, AC.
Definitely, AC.
Women, you need to have a private chat and talk that out amongst yourselves.
Yesterday I had a woman PC (who I know for a fact she's a woman IRL) tell me that I wasn't being nice to her because she was a woman and I was making her carry my heavy stuff.
That happens all the time.
You are your own worst enemy, women.
Quote from: Malken on August 26, 2008, 11:43:12 AM
Women, you need to have a private chat and talk that out amongst yourselves.
Yesterday I had a woman PC (who I know for a fact she's a woman IRL) tell me that I wasn't being nice to her because she was a woman and I was making her carry my heavy stuff.
That happens all the time.
You are your own worst enemy, women.
QFT.
These discussions on the board are nice but it's hard to break out of old habits (like calling a bunch of men 'ladies' or that they hit like a girl) when easily ninety percent of the female playerbase acts exactly like you would expect. However, the 10% that don't, are virtually always (I can't think of a single exception) treated the same as a guy would be. I can think of several bad ass females who were accorded the same respect and deference (if not more so) than a male leader. But they walked the walk too.
I try to avoid gender modifiers, but sometimes it slips out in the heat of the moment. ("Mount up, ladies"). Wherever I can, I try to substitute hateful racism against elves for it.
Nor do I see how it would strike a blow against sexual equality for people to simply admit that on Zalanthas, men are more inclined to be warriors and women are more inclined to not be. Owing to the fact that they bear children and are thus more often having to raise the next generation than men. This is because in a woman's prime, she is at her most 'capable' for childbearing, whereas at a man's prime, he is most capable for fighting. Furthermore, families seem fairly large on Zalanthas. I can think of one widow with 7 children trailing on a rope behind her. This can all be accepted while still acknowledging that women can make perfectly able warriors and that there is nothing odd about it. That would be reasonable. Yet people seem bent on extremes. I don't see anything wrong for instance, with a man who had four daughters but no sons, forbidding one of the daughters to not marry but to take up a more physical trade instead, as a son might have. That would still be in line with accepting the daughter could do just as well in a pinch, provided she weren't pinned down with, oh I don't know, procreation.
I sympathize with women for what must be the crippling and virulent sexism that they are forced to endure and somehow overcome every day of their real lives, but I don't think the above even remotely compromises the docs as they're written.
I'm forced to back Sight on this. Sexism is treating a woman or male unfairly based solely on their gender. Sexism is not telling a dude he pisses like a pregnant girl, nor assuming that that girl who's having her third kid in two years and wearing silks and slippers everywhere just might need help down the stairs.
That said, because Staff says that it is, it is, and therefore I like to introduce racial comparisons to supplant sexual comparisons as well. It works well.
You throw like a halfling!
Stop your sniveling, you ain't a breed, are you?
Ok, whores, lets see what your tricks are.
Looks like he got fecked by a skinny.
Don't be a slave.
Cried like a little halfbreed bitch.
He's a crippled mul.
Substituting racism in for sexism is pretty damn fun.
Quote from: Malken on August 26, 2008, 11:43:12 AM
Women, you need to have a private chat and talk that out amongst yourselves.
Yesterday I had a woman PC (who I know for a fact she's a woman IRL) tell me that I wasn't being nice to her because she was a woman and I was making her carry my heavy stuff.
That happens all the time.
You are your own worst enemy, women.
Some women believe the only real power they have is between their legs. And as long as they believe that it will be true. Don't be angry. Just pity them a little, when they can't see you do it.
To clarify girls are socialized to believe that exploit that power by deferring to men, and in so doing manipulate them into doing things for you. And they do it, to feel big and strong. And so they can get laid.
Which is a nice arrangement as long as everyone is happy.
What's not a nice arrangement is when a woman who is more than happy to carry her load is punished and not accorded the ability to fully realize her potential because she is compared to a woman who will not.
I'm not sure that's cogent, but I know what I mean.
Quote from: Barzalene on August 26, 2008, 06:18:04 PM
Quote from: Malken on August 26, 2008, 11:43:12 AM
Women, you need to have a private chat and talk that out amongst yourselves.
Yesterday I had a woman PC (who I know for a fact she's a woman IRL) tell me that I wasn't being nice to her because she was a woman and I was making her carry my heavy stuff.
That happens all the time.
You are your own worst enemy, women.
Some women believe the only real power they have is between their legs. And as long as they believe that it will be true. Don't be angry. Just pity them a little, when they can't see you do it.
To clarify girls are socialized to believe that exploit that power by deferring to men, and in so doing manipulate them into doing things for you. And they do it, to feel big and strong. And so they can get laid.
Which is a nice arrangement as long as everyone is happy.
What's not a nice arrangement is when a woman who is more than happy to carry her load is punished and not accorded the ability to fully realize her potential because she is compared to a woman who will not.
I'm not sure that's cogent, but I know what I mean.
I know what you mean.
Basically.
The little barbie girly girls who have been taught to be Princess Pink and keep to their "Gender Roles" make the hard working capable women of America look bad.
Quote from: Clearsighted on August 26, 2008, 03:07:57 PM
easily ninety percent of the female playerbase acts exactly like you would expect. However, the 10% that don't, are virtually always (I can't think of a single exception) treated the same as a guy would be. I can think of several bad ass females who were accorded the same respect and deference (if not more so) than a male leader. But they walked the walk too.
I have played some badass female fighter types, one of whom was a prominent, respected leader. I have fond memories of people throwing up, weeping, and pissing on themselves because of her.
But I don't always want to play that type of character. Sometimes I want to play a guild_merchant or a guild_burglar or some other type who isn't physically strong and into combat. Or, sometimes I want to play a character who achieves via manipulation and politics more than via physical presence and crisis leadership.
But then I feel guilty when I do, like I'm not "representing" enough.
That sucks.
Another aspect is that I know for a fact that my characters, regardless of guild or combat prowess or physical stats, are all well-played, faceted, interesting, strong in their own ways, etc. But I think some of them get written off as "girls" because they are not all that badass female warrior. That feels unfair to me.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 26, 2008, 06:36:36 PM
Quote from: Clearsighted on August 26, 2008, 03:07:57 PM
easily ninety percent of the female playerbase acts exactly like you would expect. However, the 10% that don't, are virtually always (I can't think of a single exception) treated the same as a guy would be. I can think of several bad ass females who were accorded the same respect and deference (if not more so) than a male leader. But they walked the walk too.
I have played some badass female fighter types, one of whom was a prominent, respected leader. I have fond memories of people throwing up, weeping, and pissing on themselves because of her.
But I don't always want to play that type of character. Sometimes I want to play a guild_merchant or a guild_burglar or some other type who isn't physically strong and into combat. Or, sometimes I want to play a character who achieves via manipulation and politics more than via physical presence and crisis leadership.
But then I feel guilty when I do, like I'm not "representing" enough.
That sucks.
Another aspect is that I know for a fact that my characters, regardless of guild or combat prowess or physical stats, are all well-played, faceted, interesting, strong in their own ways, etc. But I think some of them get written off as "girls" because they are not all that badass female warrior. That feels unfair to me.
Well. If it's any consolation, the guys who do the same things (play subtle or merchantly roles, or lounge around as someone's dainty aide and are not also nobles) tend to get treated like girls too. There are just less people interested in screwing them.
Quote from: Clearsighted on August 26, 2008, 08:00:44 PM
Well. If it's any consolation, the guys who do the same things (play subtle or merchantly roles, or lounge around as someone's dainty aide and are not also nobles) tend to get treated like girls too. There are just less people interested in screwing them.
*coughs*
Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 26, 2008, 06:36:36 PM
Quote from: Clearsighted on August 26, 2008, 03:07:57 PM
I have played some badass female fighter types, one of whom was a prominent, respected leader. I have fond memories of people throwing up, weeping, and pissing on themselves because of her.
I was definitely one of those people on two occasions.
's fun.
A lot of the posts in this thread seem to imply that the game is dominated by women that play women and men that play men. Previous threads and conversations have demonstrated that that's categorically not true. Just something to keep in mind.
Doesn't matter. Whoever is playing the PC is still playing them a certian way. It may be increased by the fact that people are playing opposite sexes and deciding that a girl should act this way and a male should act this way.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on August 26, 2008, 10:28:17 PM
Doesn't matter. Whoever is playing the PC is still playing them a certian way. It may be increased by the fact that people are playing opposite sexes and deciding that a girl should act this way and a male should act this way.
Oh I know, a lot of time men play the girliest girls around. I was just pointing that out since a few posters had used terms like "the female playerbase" while referring to the actions of characters in the game.
I just wanted to make sure all us men aren't running around playing hyper-sexual barbie dolls and then making disparaging comments about how girlie the game's women are.
On a side note (and I know I'm just asking for trouble for saying this) are we seriously blaming women for the way we treat them? "I wouldn't treat women like they're weak and only good for domestic chores and sex if it wasn't true!" I mean... really? Something about that kind of logic strikes me as really dubious.
Quote from: staggerlee on August 26, 2008, 09:58:37 PM
A lot of the posts in this thread seem to imply that the game is dominated by women that play women and men that play men. Previous threads and conversations have demonstrated that that's categorically not true. Just something to keep in mind.
You're right. There's alot of men playing extremely girly women. Honestly, I think they want to be abused, just a little. :-X
I think Malken has a whole stable of em.
My girls kidnap children, stab people's eyes out, and... yeah. That's about it.
One of them stole an elf's sword once.
That was fun.
My next chick is going to be a Suzie Homemaker, just to spite everyone.
Quote from: Zoan on August 28, 2008, 10:34:49 AM
My next chick is going to be a Suzie Homemaker, just to spite everyone.
You will rapidly get bored and store, and then the joke's on -you-.
I tend to treat people as the gender they are playing, rather than the sex. If they're playing masculine, they're going to be treated masculinely. If they're playing feminine, they're going to be treated femininely. You won't see me treating that pansy merchant boy as one of the guys if I'm playing my big burly Byn warrior, but you will see me treating that kickass Byn chick that way.
It kind of annoys me when many of the chicks around my character are tiny, fluffy, beribboned puppy dogs just looking for a home (which happens from time to time) because I really love the awesome strong female characters one tends to find on Arm, but I can concede that their players are allowed to play them whichever way they want. And I am just as allowed to take advantage of them, not because I'm playing a male character, but because they're just begging to be taken advantage of.
It isn't nearly as bad on Arm as it is on any other high or low fantasy MUD I've played, ever, and that is heartwarming. We could be better, but we are far from being the worst.
Also, the argument that 'women in their prime should be devoting their energies to having children' is pretty specious. In the first place, childbearing isn't as time consuming as seems to be implied by this argument. A pregnant woman can fully function for quite a while into her pregnancy. The actual child bearing part does not actually take that long. People seem to be confusing child bearing with child rearing, which is a long, rigorous, time consuming process that takes more than a decade. Child rearing can be performed by a man or a woman. A man could just as easily have those seven children strung out on a rope behind him as a woman could.