Armageddon General Discussion Board

Just simply that. I would prefer that noone respond to other posts, etc. Just simply to put together a list of the things that people don't like or the problems that they have with mages and magick. Please take a few moments to think about it and post only what is the heart of the problem for you, the plain and simple issue that you truly have with mages and magick currently in Armaggedon.

I hate the way that, if you choose to play a magicker, your character will inexplicably be entirely useless at anything mundane that might be useful.

I mean, if magickers are -supposed- to be able to pwn noobz...why not let them cast fireballs -and- disarm people?

If balance is an issue, raise the karma requirements.  I'm tired of playing magickers that are completely useless at everything except melting faces.

Quote from: Synthesis on July 14, 2008, 10:56:55 PM
I hate the way that, if you choose to play a magicker, your character will inexplicably be entirely useless at anything mundane that might be useful.

That right there is one of my problems with magick.

I'll post some more when I'm feeling more coherent.

I don't like that, in theory, magickers could go from "just discovering their powers" to the most powerful magicker without ever leaving the safety of four walls, alone, and sheltered from any dangers. (I'm not just talking gemmers, I'm also talking tribal magickers.)

I also don't like that it seems like most rogue magickers lack goals, which lead to them being bored and 'harassing' characters, because, like a poster said, they can pretty much only use magick and nothing else.

I haven't played any magickers, but based on my limited knowledge from the helpfiles I'm going to have to say: Nil. The word for casting, I mean, not that I have no problems with magick. Seems to me like that is where all the complaints about easiness stems from, though I have no experience and wouldn't be surprised if I was wrong.

There's too many of them.

They wreck the plots that I have very easily, and manipulate the things I try and do VERY QUICKLY.

Most don't seem to care about being scary, more of being a killer.

The way the pot is being allowed to boil over. Why don't the staff step in and make some definitive rulings? Instead, we're left to argue among ourselves, with the only result being increased ill will.

Quote from: mansa on July 14, 2008, 11:35:23 PM
There's too many of them.

They wreck the plots that I have very easily, and manipulate the things I try and do VERY QUICKLY.

Most don't seem to care about being scary, more of being a killer.

Quote from: Salt Merchant on July 14, 2008, 11:36:46 PM
The way the pot is being allowed to boil over. Why don't the staff step in and make some definitive rulings? Instead, we're left to argue among ourselves, with the only result being increased ill will.

Magickers and other non-mundanes largely make mundanes irrelevant to whatever situation or plot they are involved in, when there are no social restrictions that keep mundanes relevant. Every category of endeavor (killing stuff, finding stuff, transportation, group safety, healing, spying, and more) that mundanes can do, some type of non-mundane can do far, far better (more quickly, more safely, more efficiently, more effectively). The prospect of making a mundane character in order to be useful to organizations, leaders, and plots is extremely daunting if those organizations / leaders / plots have established access to non-mundanes to do the work. Mundanes just can't compete in that kind of world. Even when I was playing an extremely competent, prominent, codedly capable mundane character, I was often held back from involvement in things because "oh, we'll have a magicker do it." The ONLY arena in which mundanes can still compete with non-mundanes is the socio-political; and yet, I've seen open use of magickers as aides and an overwhelming quantity of non-public use of non-mundanes by leadership. So the social restrictions clearly are not that great.

Quote from: Synthesis on July 14, 2008, 10:56:55 PM
I hate the way that, if you choose to play a magicker, your character will inexplicably be entirely useless at anything mundane that might be useful.

I mean, if magickers are -supposed- to be able to pwn noobz...why not let them cast fireballs -and- disarm people?

If balance is an issue, raise the karma requirements.  I'm tired of playing magickers that are completely useless at everything except melting faces.

If I ever play a magicker, it's going to be a special app.  I'm going to see if I can't get a couple specific skills so I don't have to be a magicker in everything I do.  From what I see, it really sucks.  The way things are now, they pretty much have to fly around and melt people's faces.

I'm just waiting for multiclassing in the next game.

QuoteI hate the way that, if you choose to play a magicker, your character will inexplicably be entirely useless at anything mundane that might be useful.

I mean, if magickers are -supposed- to be able to pwn noobz...why not let them cast fireballs -and- disarm people?

If balance is an issue, raise the karma requirements.  I'm tired of playing magickers that are completely useless at everything except melting faces.

That...cubed then doubled a few times.

I really think, at the very least there should be some mage only sub classes. Nothing like dual classing mind you, just a few other basic mundane skills. Some things to show that they are not simply face melting machines but people too. Or maybe even very high end natural branches. Or, at the very least have it so that it is easier to get skills added by staff to established mages who have put the work into it.

As to the like three or four posters above me, I think your perspectives on the subject are very scewed...at the very least. My last PC leader did 1236567235632 things and never hired a mage for it...though hiring a mage would have been easier only because they are starved for interaction. It tends to be HARD to hire mundanes for MANY tasks, even for very large sums of coin. Mansa, that was a joke post I hope...that or simple trolling.

There are far too many magickers and they are too weak.

Magickers aren't really that scary. They should be scary.

Really scary. A gifted Vivaduan should be able to boil your blood without breaking a sweat. A powerful Krathi should be able to incinerate huts with gestures.

There should be ~10 magicker characters at any given time. Not 50. I should not run into 5 magickers in the wastes in one day no matter how well played they are.

That's not scary. It's stupid. It makes me feel like I'm playing a Korean MMO.

Quote from: mansa on July 14, 2008, 11:35:23 PM
There's too many of them.

They wreck the plots that I have very easily, and manipulate the things I try and do VERY QUICKLY.

Most don't seem to care about being scary, more of being a killer.

Sounds familiar to me mansa. Six months ago, we should have held a thread exactly like this, but about psionicists:

Frankly, there were too many of them.

They wrecked plots that I had easily, and manipulated the things I try and do VERY QUICKLY.

Most don't seem to care about being scary, more of being a killer.

*eyeroll* Grow up bub. You did to an entire CLAN what one pc did to you. You're upset at the fact that you had a bubble you felt was impenetrable, and someone popped that bubble of security and proved they could touch you.

My point? Stop complaining because of personal issues - anecdotal evidence is lame and only makes you look like a whiner. I was crushed when my beloved pc died to your coterie, but I sucked it up and have moved on. I no longer want to shoot you in the face with a cow-puncher. Let's move on, hrm?

Anyways, back on topic:

I've been playing this game a decade or so now, and I as well as a few others have a certain amount of perspective in regards to the amount of magickers in game:

*Ten years ago, the number of mages in game was, surprisingly, about the same.

*Ten years ago, mages were weak and able to be killed in a far more efficient and safe manner.

*Ten years later, and mages are stronger. Halaster mentioned this was intentionl - I feel some of the older players have yet to accept this.

*Ten years ago, the game wasn't ending. Plots were both magick and mundane intensive, depending on when and where you played. Does no one remember the kryl attacks? The wyvern at the Scaien? The undead rising from Undertuluk? All magickal, and all over five years ago, circa 2001 to 2003. Also, we had Ysania, Pearl, Sujaal, Kune (every damned incarnation of him) and a slew of other players who grew to such power and fame that they could change the world on the same level as an all powerful magicker, albeit on a different level. Merchant houses, mercenary units, and entire tribes were created and put into the game at the behest of these players. Name as many magickers as I have who accomplished as much, please... ::) Exactly.

*Ten years later, the game is ending. One can look to the history and timeline and come to understand why it is magick has become more prevalent. Guess what folks: it's because a goddamn dragon, THE dragon, a magickal entity the size of the Superdome, practically destroyed Zalanthas in the past. Furthermore, the world was originally close to being destroyed by magick. Zalanthas and magick are inextricably linked, joined at the hip rather, and for one to assume that magick should not be as prevalent as it currently is, well...is flat-out incorrect.

Here's what I think the problem boils down to:

1) Mages used to not be as powerful, or not have the potential for said power.

2) This resulted in players being more trusted in playing them.

3) Mages are now more powerful, and can kill with relative ease. That's not to say mages from ten years ago couldn't be powerful - they simply couldn't get as powerful in such a short amount of time.

4) This point relates to the previous two: Magickers are more powerful now, so said expectations for players should be higher, correct? I'd agree they should be, but I have a feeling they currently aren't. This isn't to fault the staff, but rather to point out something that none of us have really discussed yet, or thought of as a potential problem.

5) Karma proved to be an excellent system for around a decade, but now a number of players have over five or six karma, therefore, we might see more powerful mages in the game than we once did.

6) Karma is, in my opinion, too easy to accrue. I believe that a new system of checks and balances should be put in place, namely a point system that allows one to choose a high option, yet be forced to wait at least a month or two before said option is open again, if not more. Perhaps raise the time required to wait for said refreshing of karma, depending on how high the role is on the karma-scale.

My point boils down to this:

I do not hate magickers. I love them. One of the guilds is my second favorite in the game, just behind the good ole ranger. However, some people do not like playing mundanes. They prefer mages. Nothing else other than what I presented above should be put in place to limit mages. We all play this game for fun, and I can promise you, if you force someone to play something they do not want to play, they will simply pack up and leave.

These next few months are going to be very trying. As the new game inches further towards completion, old players might leave, and new ones might come. I believe that older players have a different perspective on issues that have been around for some time. That's not to say said perspectives are better. They are merely different than a player who has been around for, say, five years or less.

I don't like that some of the secrets and hidden things about the magick code are fairly common knowledge among the mages now that used to be unheard of and very secret.

I've passed on the story before where a four half-elf warrior I had, the first one after returning to the game after two years or so marches out, knocks out a magicker and looks in the pack later to discover four magick weapons.  I left my head down and left the magicker alive because I figured it could start up something cool.  The magicker I had knocked out passes my Sdesc to character who have never seen me, they contact me and use some of their serious shit.  The whole thing was lame, foraging in the desert with magick weapons in your pack, a four hour half-elf -having- something like that and then instead of letting it play out and see where the weapons end up or leaving it to the magicker I had knocked out to convince/trick me to come back or something they just pulled this move.

Obviously I'm not upset about losing a four hour character, this is just a situation that illustrates the frustration I get at times.  Magickers get buddy buddy and share too much shit that's supposed to be special and secret.  There is little subtlety.

I have never bothered much playing magickers because they're not really my style so I don't know what's really appropriate as far as magicker-magicker relationships whether it's between the different elementalists, gemmers to rogues, mages to sorcerers and so on.  It seems now they're all good friends and maybe that's cool with the docs and how you play a good magicker, like I said I don't know.  Right now... or at least a year ago they were all very buddy buddy and whether they admit it or not, it's because it makes them very powerful when they co-operate.

I think Mages have a good level of power right now, a high level Krathi can roast you before you can get two rounds off attack off and from one has been used on me I know there are some seriously mean elkrosian, whiran and nilazi shit out there too.  It's all stuff to be really scared about, and that's good.  I'd be all for them taking an even greater hit socially AND skill-wise.  If you're a magicker you've devoted your life to it, you're a black sheep with a gift that you couldn't ignore... because if you did ignore it you would be a soldier or a crafter, not a mage devoted to magick.  With the subclasses you can be shitty at a day job and if you want to be a bynner with combat skills like every krathi and elkros wants to be just join up and suck shit at it, it's not illegal to be shitty at something.  It's like saying you want to be studying full-time to be a medical doctor... but doing it in secret on weekends until you're a really good doctor.

I don't know how much sense that all made but anyways... I'd like to see magickers have to pay for their power.  Magickers are bottle fed, my opinion anyways and it would be difficult to change at this point after playing a couple and being involved with many others.

My mage-er (pun intended... major) problem with magickers is that the mode in which they were built was not actively applied to other mundane classes, creating an interesting, fast-paced skill progression that makes others seem less interesting, and has been said before, less useful.

If the same amount of creativity/code-work had been put into mundane skills as magicker skills, I would probably ALWAYS play mundanes. But the fact is, that the way mundane's were designed seems to be a slightly nerfed form of standard ROM/DIKU code, with a few quirks (like the progression system, etc). I don't want to give away anything about how magicker skills are set up, but I believe the people that have played them for a bit will understand what I mean by it being a completely different system then mundanes (or maybe its just my opinion).

There are many things that could be done to improve mundane classes that would keep people playing them, and possibly detract from people playing non-mundanes. More elaborate skill-sets for each class would be a start, varying paths of progression, etc. Much of this, fortunately, is being worked on in Arm 2.0, so I guess they realized it being a problem in Arm 1.0.

Making the mundane guilds more useful (not necessarily more powerful, uber, etc) would also help alot in curbing my distaste at what seems negligent disregard for the non-magicker classes.

Making rangers more adept/realistic woodsmen/wanderers would help take the priority off Rukkians/Elkrans/Whirans/etc, by making them more sought out as travel companions as they should be - this could be something as simple as instead of needing to tame actual PCs, let it work with VNPCs or something, in areas likely to animals.

Making warriors more adept fighters (not saying make it easier or quicker to advance), by fleshing out their skillset some would make people prefer to play them as damage-dealers.

The same with thieves... why hire a sneaking thief to spy for you when there are many magickal alternatives that are safer, cheaper, and easier.


Anyways, getting a little off track. My main problem again, with magickers, is their seemingly better designed class-structure and skillsets as opposed to their mundane counterparts. It is hard to seperate two warrior/hunters of equal skill and playingtime. There is little variation, and it drives people to flood the more mysterious classes.

There are fire, wind, stone, shadow, lightning, water, and void elementalists, in addition to sorcerers and psionicists. That is eight non-mundane guilds to compete again warriors, rangers and assassins (3 semi-combat guilds), assassins, thieves, burglars (3 semi-sneaky guilds) and merchants. If I want to play a killing/damage type character type there is an obvious draw to these mysterious non-mundane classes that are rumored to be super-powerful mundane killers. And it shouldn't be that way necessarily.

What Forest Junkie said.

p.s. The Wyvern attack on the Scaien... I loved that event..

I have only two problems with magickers, one is that I like that they're ostracized, and so I dislike when they're intergrated. I know, I know, a lot of you don't want to be afraid of them any more because you feel you oocly know too much about them and they're too prevalent. So, I guess I don't have a problem with magickers, I have a problem with all of you.

The other is that I think they're a bit omnipresent in the shadier parts of society. I think the stigma should extend there. I think that a magicker joining up with a criminal organization should have to lie about it, hide it, and be ashamed of what they are. Playing in certain areas shouldn't be a free pass.

Quote from: Barzalene on July 15, 2008, 07:48:52 AM
I have only two problems with magickers, one is that I like that they're ostracized, and so I dislike when they're intergrated. I know, I know, a lot of you don't want to be afraid of them any more because you feel you oocly know too much about them and they're too prevalent. So, I guess I don't have a problem with magickers, I have a problem with all of you.

The other is that I think they're a bit omnipresent in the shadier parts of society. I think the stigma should extend there. I think that a magicker joining up with a criminal organization should have to lie about it, hide it, and be ashamed of what they are. Playing in certain areas shouldn't be a free pass.

I agree overall with what you're saying.

I'll take it a step further, though. If more of you feel like magickers shouldn't be so accepted by society, then I really think you need to take the appropriate steps to:

A) Stop hiring them if you're a noble

B) Stop hiring them if you run a criminal organization

C) Stop working with them if you're a hunter just because they can help you kill things easily.

I could go on and on. The point is, if those of you who think magickers are too prevalent in the game really want to see fewer numbers, then stop working with them. Encourage other players to stop working with them.  There are IC ways around this, believe me.

I can all but promise you that the day magickers become less accepted by society within the game, that will be the day you see less magickers in game.

I feel like lately, in certain areas of the world they've become more like "pest" mobs than PCs with unique personalities. It just seems like whenever you go to this or that place, you have to deal with "yet another" magicker. It's sad, when you have a character who -should- have a healthy fear, loathing, and distrust of them, to hear about one in an area and shrug it off, with an exasperated sigh "Oh, another one?"

It's starting to get a little old now.

Quote from: Lizzie on July 15, 2008, 08:18:09 AM
I feel like lately, in certain areas of the world they've become more like "pest" mobs than PCs with unique personalities. It just seems like whenever you go to this or that place, you have to deal with "yet another" magicker. It's sad, when you have a character who -should- have a healthy fear, loathing, and distrust of them, to hear about one in an area and shrug it off, with an exasperated sigh "Oh, another one?"

It's starting to get a little old now.

It sounds like you're letting OOC feelings affect your play in game. Regardless of whether or not you're tired of mages out of the game, it shouldn't be relatively hard for you to roleplay fear or supersition in the game. This is another problem I think lies with the players of mundanes, and not magickers. It's not their fault that your OOC knowledge has lead you to not fear them. It's also not their fault that your allowing said OOC perceptions affect your in game play. That, to me, sounds like a problem you and a few other people should look into correcting.

Place blame where it is needed, please.

I've rarely if ever been friendly with magickers.  And haven't been friendly with breeds or elves or rinth scum et cetera since I figured out humans don't care for their sort.  

I still think alot of it is up to the players.  

So as for problems with magickers... well none really.  I've still yet to play one, been busy with other roles but I will eventually and guess what?  I'm not going to feel the least bit bad about it.

Brandon

Quote from: Forest Junkie on July 15, 2008, 08:21:01 AM
It sounds like you're letting OOC feelings affect your play in game. Regardless of whether or not you're tired of mages out of the game, it shouldn't be relatively hard for you to roleplay fear or supersition in the game. This is another problem I think lies with the players of mundanes, and not magickers. It's not their fault that your OOC knowledge has lead you to not fear them. It's also not their fault that your allowing said OOC perceptions affect your in game play. That, to me, sounds like a problem you and a few other people should look into correcting.

Place blame where it is needed, please.

My OOC feelings are, my character SHOULD quake in fear at just the MENTION of an abomination wreaking havoc in the neighborhood. Unfortunately, my character has heard about one abomination per RL week, every week, for the past two RL months, wreaking havoc in the same neghborhood. It's getting old for my character, because SHE is tired of it. And she shouldn't have to be. Magicks should be SO rare, that they inspire fear when you hear it is close. But it is SO common, that it's easy to just shrug it off and say "so go kill them, and don't forget to pick me up a quart of milk on the way home."  What *I* am getting tired of, is having to work SO hard at maintaining a fearful attitude in my character of something that is as common as a gortok.

I'm not blaming anyone. I'm a little irritated that you feel you have to blame me, for roleplaying my character how I feel is appropriate, given the circumstances she is exposed to, of which I hope you know nothing about.

Quote from: Lizzie on July 15, 2008, 08:30:14 AM
My OOC feelings are, my character SHOULD quake in fear at just the MENTION of an abomination wreaking havoc in the neighborhood.

Wait, stop right there. I cut off the rest of the quote because this is what we should focus on right now. If you feel your character should act a certain way, then I suggest you have them act that way, regardless of how many mages you run into.

Quote from: Lizzie on July 15, 2008, 08:30:14 AM
I'm not blaming anyone.

You expressed distress and frustration earlier, going so far as to liken some magickers to "pest" mobs. I ask of you, if you were not blaming the players for your frustration, then what were you doing?

Quote from: Lizzie on July 15, 2008, 08:30:14 AM
I'm a little irritated that you feel you have to blame me, for roleplaying my character how I feel is appropriate, given the circumstances she is exposed to, of which I hope you know nothing about.

I didn't have to blame you for anything. You freely admitted that you allow your own perception of mages and their alleged rise in numbers bring about a change within your own pc. I'm sorry, but it's not that hard to adhere to the documentation. If it says you should more than likely fear mages, then I suppose you're just going to have to be roleplaying fear more than you intended to. Sorry if that's not the answer you were looking for.

Guys, Zalanthas is a big place. But it can only be so big. There are only so many spots for mages to live so that they don't bother you with their existence. If you are in the wastes and see a mage or ten in an area, I have advice for you: stop going there. Pull out your hair and scream. Run away, go somewhere else! Find a new spot to hunt. It's not like mages are crawling about like a hill of ants. People are bantering about exaggerated numbers and that is what's getting old to me.

Well it was an interesting debate. Unfortunately FJ, you are baiting people into rebutting your arguements with IC information, which you know isn't allowed. The only way to say "you are incorrect, FJ," is to cite IC info, to explain exactly why you are incorrect. And since we're not allowed to do that, the discussion is ended, and you get to blame all the mundanes for not paying attention to the docs. And so, you win.

Edited because Lizzie is right, we're not supposed to argue in this thread, just post what our problems with magickers are and move on.

My main issues with magickers are:

> Their rapid skill progression:

• Is attractive to the wrong type of players who want to embody the skills more than the role. In a similar vein to when free muls were running willy nilly.  They all but disappeared when their karma was raised substantially and were being held more tightly to adhere to the documentation and play slaves.  When that instant power was no longer easily attainable by players that simply wanted the fierce ability to kill, the number of roles began to drop.  Funny how that works.
• Fails to instill the appropriate sense of investment in a character which can govern and impact one's decision making process.  Why worry about dying due to rash behavior or unrealistic game play when I can have a similarly skilled mage in a matter of days?  Skill advancement in mundanes, especially as it relates to combat, is mitigated by several factors including the existence and accessibility of suitable partners/targets, access to suitable training areas, and several more IC factors that slow the learning curve.
• Erodes the sense of mystery surrounding magick in the game.  When magickers are capable of progressing so quickly, and they do - because I have, it cheapens the moments and experiences when you meet a mage capable of doing something wondrous.  Several people have claimed that years ago there were just as many magicker characters as there are today.  I don't know about that, but I do know that of the magickers that did exist, there were only a handful that were even remotely close to being extremely powerful.  Those few magickers had taken much time to accrue those powers and became semi-legendary as being one of the few magickers, or perhaps the only magicker, capable of a particularly devastating or powerful spell.  Now it's a far easier and less wondrous road, and world.

> Their power potential:

• Creates issues by expecting deep support in a shallow environment.  What I mean by this is that there aren't enough magicker peers and entities to appropriately populate the high level magicker game.  There's a precious few and they walk as gods amidst the player base.  Warriors, rangers, assassins -- no matter how powerful they become, their inherent vulnerability and accessibility will always keep them well within reach of the many PC mundane organizations and groups operating at any given moment.  The same cannot be said of the magickers.
• Encourages plot development at a level mundanes cannot compete.  As a few others have mentioned, and linked to the point above, powerful magickers are in a position to easily begin, manipulate, or oppose almost any type of plot.  Because they are so capable in this regions, the surrounding challenges and obstacles generally need to be of the same degree of difficulty so that they cannot be overcome so easily by said magickers.  This sets the bar extremely high and often excludes any meaningful participation to the mundane populace when such plots are put into action.  It's even been stated by the Imms that they will often used magick-based characters to drive plots because it's simply easier to do.
• Creates too much overlap between magicker and mundane strengths.  Mundanes and magickers should both provide unique and useful skills and abilities that have limited amounts of overlap.  Magickers should not have spells that trivialize what mundanes can contribute.  Their powers and abilities should be focused on areas and niches that mundanes cannot do, which can still be powerful and frightening.  Over time, magickers have been granted more and more "cool spells" likely because there have been folks upstairs that enjoy that kind of thing and it's much easier to create 'spells' than balance a new mundane ability.  Not only did magickers become less vulnerable and more capable of defending themselves, they grew in power more quickly, and they gained more spells than before while the mundanes, largely, stayed exactly the same.

I agree with the people that mention going back to a skill progression system that crawls at a snail's pace wouldn't be very exciting, and I also agree that a system which doesn't allow mages to learn another ability no matter how much they practice is a major contributing factor to that boredom.  If changes were made, I would want to see the killing power potential of most magicker classes reduced, their spells largely increased in the areas of utility and defense, and their abilities designed more for integration with mundane game play and daily life than for opposition to it.  In addition, I would want to see elementalists capable of learning a few other skills that would allow them to take on additional tasks or better integrate into the mundane world.

Leave the irrational fear for the sorcerers and truly terrible beasts that are purposefully kept restricted by number or special appication, and allow the player to allow their character (mundane or magickal) to instill fear into the hearts of their fellow player-characters through their deeds rather than through the documentation.  Anyone can play a hatred and feared character.  I don't see a lot of benefit to hard wiring those feelings into the entire population through the documentation, but to allow them to ebb and flow with dynamic state of the game.

-LoD

I was going to post, but then LOD said it all...

Anyway, I actually enjoy magick related plots in moderation (but love mundane plots unconditionally).

My major problem is the extreme difficulty a mundane faces in impacting plots which a mage can affect much more easily, and often more effectively.

One issue that I've experienced is that while a solo magicker might be a threat, the fact that mages are ostracized nearly everywhere but 'Nak makes them band together. Is that realistic? Should mages trust each other? Doesn't matter. It's an OOC desire for interaction. Can't interact with the rest of the pbase? We're going to interact with each other, and form groups, and completely pwn your mundanes with our fiery-watery-electrical-shadow doom.

Solution? I've always thought more strain between opposite elements would be cool RP. Should Vivs and Krathis want to make sweet love? Maybe some documentation around which elements are sympathetic and antipathetic? As for allowing magickers to interact with the pbase more effectively so they don't seek each other out and form bands? You got me...

Quote from: LoD on July 15, 2008, 11:14:47 AM
Is attractive to the wrong type of players who want to embody the skills more than the role.

I honestly think this puts players of magickers in a bad light, but it's still a valid point.  People are attracted to magickers for their easy power.  The question is, why?  It's fairly simple.  It's the same reason everyone is attracted to great power.  They don't want to have to struggle to get what they want done.

It's this lack of struggle in magickers that rather irks me and disassociates them from a proper place in Zalanthas, where living is supposed to be a struggle.

Quote from: Forest Junkie on July 15, 2008, 03:40:00 AM
*Ten years later, the game is ending. One can look to the history and timeline and come to understand why it is magick has become more prevalent. Guess what folks: it's because [SOMETHING IC HERE THAT FJ MENTIONED BUT WHICH I'M EDITING OUT]. He's brought hell with him. Furthermore, the world was originally close to being destroyed by magick. Zalanthas and magick are inextricably linked, joined at the hip rather, and for one to assume that magick should not be as prevalent as it currently is, well...is flat-out incorrect.

I'd be all A-OK with magickal super-plots being the only thing going if the world really was going to end in a month or three. But we're going on two years now since "The Announcement" and the beginning of the end of the world, and frankly it's just wearisome; and the true end is still nowhere in sight. I don't really give a fuck about [THE SOMETHING IC THAT FJ MENTIONED BUT WHICH I'M EDITING OUT]. I want to see -mundane- crime waves, -mundane- threats, -mundane- political plots, -mudane- drama. AFAIK, there hasn't been a large (multi-clan) imm-backed mundane plot since the conflict in Tuluk in fall '06. And so here we all are, holding our breath and waiting for the next uber-magickal happening. I'm fine with magick being prevalent, but I'm not fine with it being the only show on.

Quote from: LoD on July 15, 2008, 11:14:47 AM
A character's world is dynamic, not static.  The moment a character points toward a town at the Hall of Kings, they begin adapting to their environment. 

I'm well aware of this.

Quote from: LoD on July 15, 2008, 11:14:47 AM
It has nothing to do with OOC intention and everything to do with the IC environment that the mages are every bit as responsible for creating as the mundanes.  It's a 50/50 revolving door and if you don't like how it's spinning, you can do just as much to stop it as the others.

I already am. I plan mundanes.

Quote from: LoD on July 15, 2008, 11:14:47 AM
That may be true if the documentation was being upheld on both ends, but it isn't.  Magick is not rare and mysterious.  It's common and overbearing in today's scene.  Within the first 2 hours of my latest PC, mining quietly outside of Allanak, I saw no less than 7 magickers, 2 casting outside of the gates within sight and 1 of them chasing me, unprovoked, down the road with obvious magickal properties.  Running in fear, I went into the local tavern to relay my tale of fright and wonder.  What I was met with were cold shoulder shrugs, two more magickers in the bar trying to defend themselves and their good intentions, and a handful of mundanes growing angry with me because I was making their magicker friends upset.

And? I haven't seen a single magicker with my pc as of yet. Another point to note is, you were around Allanak. Gemmed mages live there. There are pc gemmed mages. A+B=you will see magickers. I've never had a scene such as yours unfold, but if you'd really like to get away from magick, I suggest a loner hunter, or perhaps a character in Tuluk.

Quote from: LoD on July 15, 2008, 11:14:47 AM
Neither is what I'd prefer to see, but it's a natural IC byproduct of the situation and not a series of OOC motivated schemes from other players.

You speak as if the game should be molded to your preference. Sorry, but that's just not the case. I agree with you that I'd like to see more grit and harshness, i.e. mundanes shunning mages, but guess what, it's the mundanes that are befriending them! No one is forcing them to be chummy with a wiggler, right?

Quote from: LoD on July 15, 2008, 11:14:47 AM
If you are in the wastes and see a mundane or ten in an area, I have advice for you: stop going there.  Become nervous that you will be discovered.  Run away, go somewhere else!  Find a new spot to practice your magicks.  It's not like mundanes are crawling about like a hill of ants.  People are having knee-jerk reactions to any meaningful discussion about the flaws inherent in today's documentation and existing system and that is what's getting old to me.

Why are you speaking to me as if it's myself who only plays mages and waltzes into a group of mundanes showing off my buffness? When I play mages I generally keep to myself and shy away from mundanes, unless I spot one I can possibly ally with. You're really preaching to the choir.

Quote from: LoD on July 15, 2008, 11:14:47 AM
There are just issues with the current game that have grown over the last several years which impact magicker and mundane alike, and dealing with those has become increasingly difficult for the more vocal of the bunch.

You're absolutely right, but from the looks of it, the most vocal detractors are rather few in number in comparison to the rest of the mud's population. I know of many individuals who have no problem with magick in its current incarnation.

Quote from: LoD on July 15, 2008, 11:14:47 AM
> Their rapid skill progression:

Halaster already posted on at least two separate instances that this was intentional. Besides, mundanes can become just as power on a relative scale if the player so wishes. It's merely more important to become more powerful with a rogue mage because if one has no friends, then they must rely on their magick to survive, correct?

[l

Quote from: LoD on July 15, 2008, 11:14:47 AM

• Is attractive to the wrong type of players who want to embody the skills more than the role. In a similar vein to when free muls were running willy nilly.  They all but disappeared when their karma was raised substantially and were being held more tightly to adhere to the documentation and play slaves.  When that instant power was no longer easily attainable by players that simply wanted the fierce ability to kill, the number of roles began to drop.  Funny how that works.

Actually, I find it funny how you are drawing conclusions based on something that happened eight years ago. I also think it's pretty pathetic of you to make such accusations in regards to the playerbase. Obviously, if someone has karma for a mage, then that means the staff trusts them to handle the role properly. How about you exercise some trust in the staff?

Quote from: LoD on July 15, 2008, 11:14:47 AM

• Fails to instill the appropriate sense of investment in a character which can govern and impact one's decision making process.  Why worry about dying due to rash behavior or unrealistic game play when I can have a similarly skilled mage in a matter of days?

Have you ever played a magicker? I'm of the opinion that it takes alot of time and effort to invest into a magicker in order to bring them and their surroundings to life. (nevermind, I read further down below)

[l

Quote from: LoD on July 15, 2008, 11:14:47 AM

• Creates issues by expecting deep support in a shallow environment.  What I mean by this is that there aren't enough magicker peers and entities to appropriately populate the high level magicker game.  There's a precious few and they walk as gods amidst the player base.  Warriors, rangers, assassins -- no matter how powerful they become, their inherent vulnerability and accessibility will always keep them well within reach of the many PC mundane organizations and groups operating at any given moment.  The same cannot be said of the magickers.

I can honestly say that you are very mistaken. Try pissing off Kurac with a mage. Trust me when I say that you will not live long.

Quote from: LoD on July 15, 2008, 11:14:47 AM

• Encourages plot development at a level mundanes cannot compete.

I explained earlier that mages were different, but not necessarily better, than mundanes. You can't expect the same type of plots with a mundane as you would with a mage. It wouldn't make sense. There are tons of mundane plots going on right now that would be killer to be involved with. However, if you're a mage, you're out of luck. The same could be said with mage plots and mundanes trying to get in on the action. Do you see where I'm going with this?

Quote from: LoD on July 15, 2008, 11:14:47 AM
As a few others have mentioned, and linked to the point above, powerful magickers are in a position to easily begin, manipulate, or oppose almost any type of plot.

Really?

Quote from: LoD on July 15, 2008, 11:14:47 AM

• Creates too much overlap between magicker and mundane strengths.  Mundanes and magickers should both provide unique and useful skills and abilities that have limited amounts of overlap.  Magickers should not have spells that trivialize what mundanes can contribute.

LoD, magickers are...magickers. They control the element in question they share an affinity with. How can they not trivialize what mundanes can contribute to their cause? The same can be said of mundanes trivializing what mages can contribute. I can't count the number of times I watched in awe with a particular mage as a ranger killed critters with a single arrow. This was something I couldn't accomplish unless I used all but my most powerful of spells, and even then, just watching them exert so little energy in the act made my character envious of them. The same can be said of other mundane skills, such as bash, subdue, scan, hunt, and skinning. These lack of these skills severely hinder mages, effectively leaving them as glass cannons. Hence, mages and mundanes have been balanced in such a way that it works better for them to team up. Something like this is possible in Allanak, whereas in Tuluk such a thing could bring about charges of treason. I hope I'm not rambling - does this make sense thus far?

Quote from: LoD on July 15, 2008, 11:14:47 AM
Their powers and abilities should be focused on areas and niches that mundanes cannot do, which can still be powerful and frightening.

I don't understand - this is how the system currently works, for both sides of the coin. See my above paragraph.

Quote from: LoD on July 15, 2008, 11:14:47 AM
Over time, magickers have been granted more and more "cool spells" likely because there have been folks upstairs that enjoy that kind of thing and it's much easier to create 'spells' than balance a new mundane ability.

You know what? You're absolutely right. And no, I'm not being snarky here. It's true that a particular immortal decided to spend the bulk of their time working on the magick system. If another immortal sought to, I'm sure they could work with the mundane skills in a similar fashion.

Quote from: LoD on July 15, 2008, 11:14:47 AM
Not only did magickers become less vulnerable and more capable of defending themselves, they grew in power more quickly, and they gained more spells than before while the mundanes, largely, stayed exactly the same.

Agreed. See above.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on July 15, 2008, 11:34:05 AM

Quote from: Forest Junkie on July 15, 2008, 03:40:00 AM
*Ten years later, the game is ending. One can look to the history and timeline and come to understand why it is magick has become more prevalent. Guess what folks: it's because a goddamn dragon, THE dragon, the size of the Superdome, has returned. He's brought hell with him. Furthermore, the world was originally close to being destroyed by magick. Zalanthas and magick are inextricably linked, joined at the hip rather, and for one to assume that magick should not be as prevalent as it currently is, well...is flat-out incorrect.

I'd be all A-OK with magickal super-plots being the only thing going if the world really was going to end in a month or three. But we're going on two years now since "The Announcement" and the beginning of the end of the world, and frankly it's just wearisome; and the true end is still nowhere in sight. I don't really give a fuck about Echri and his evil henchmen of d00m. I want to see -mundane- crime waves, -mundane- threats, -mundane- political plots, -mudane- drama. AFAIK, there hasn't been a large (multi-clan) imm-backed mundane plot since the conflict in Tuluk in fall '06. And so here we all are, holding our breath and waiting for the next uber-magickal happening. I'm fine with magick being prevalent, but I'm not fine with it being the only show on.

Gimf, no one is stopping you from creating a mundane plot. I reiterate, you do not have to have an immortal to back your plot. If you get enough players involved, I can promise you a staff member will take interest and pick up the plot line to help move it along.

Also, please refrain from posting such IC information on the boards. I know you're frustrated, but bringing in information other players may not have knowledge of is not really polite.

I dont like them because they can kill me in one hit. I could say..."I dont like it because the DOCUMENTATION says they should much more rare."...But I will live up to it. I dont like it because they are extremely powerful, and thus, can kill me in one hit....I dont think I need to explain why that bothers me.

If I didnt have one-hit wonders walking around me constantly, it wouldnt be so bad. But I can only encounter so many PC's that are capable of destroying entire units of mundanes before it really starts to lose its luster, and just becomes annoying.

"Oh look, another uber magicker, thats the third one today...Get me another ale."

I have always been in favor of keeping magick, just limiting the number of active non-mundanes the game can have at any time.

We already do this with psions, and noone cries and complains. (And yes, we do, I can post the Staff email if you want to disagree with me about it, it is OOC'ly limited)

Why dont we just apply the same OOC staff enforced regulation to Elementalists? I dont see what the big fucking deal is.

If someone wants to cry and complain because they want to play a Krathi, but there are already five Krathi's in game....Tough fucking luck, shut up and make something else, or dont play.

Of course, keep in mind this is coming from someone who doesnt play magickers. I dont enjoy playing magickers. But I also feel an OOC responsibility to not add to the problem of "Too Many Magickers" as it is.

I think we all have that OOC responsibility, and if people would live up to that, and stop being douche bags who just want to be "powerful", we wouldnt have this thread right now.

Yes, I called them douche bags. I didnt point out anyone imparticular, that was just a general overall statment not aimed at a specific being, and therefore, not a flame, but a widespanning expression of dissapointment. 

I agree with Desertman, though I think reviewing how the karma system works could be more appropriate. The reason psionicists are limited is because they require the maximum amount of karma attainable, and they are also the guild with the most potential for power in the game.

Same with sorcerors.

Quote from: Forest Junkie on July 15, 2008, 11:54:39 AM
I agree with Desertman, though I think reviewing how the karma system works could be more appropriate. The reason psionicists are limited is because they require the maximum amount of karma attainable, and they are also the guild with the most potential for power in the game.

Same with sorcerors.

When it comes down to...ONE HIT KILL....It doesnt really matter if its a fireball, or having your brain melted.

A one hit kill, is a one hit kill.

Its like argueing if you want to be blown to bits with a hand grenade or a stick of dynamite...Same end result.

I just propose we limit the ALL one hit killers, and not just some. Doesnt make any sense that we dont really.

Quote from: Forest Junkie on July 15, 2008, 11:49:34 AM
Also, please refrain from posting such IC information on the boards. I know you're frustrated, but bringing in information other players may not have knowledge of is not really polite.

I guess you completely missed the part where the IC info is contained in your post? Maybe you should edit. I edited your quote in my post, for reference if you need it.

Quote from: Forest Junkie on July 15, 2008, 11:49:34 AMGimf, no one is stopping you from creating a mundane plot. I reiterate, you do not have to have an immortal to back your plot. If you get enough players involved, I can promise you a staff member will take interest and pick up the plot line to help move it along.

You continually smokescreen the issue of plots. The question at hand is about imm-backed super-plots that have the potential to involve many, many characters. You are attempting to divert attention from the problem by claiming that those who want MUNDANE plots of this kind somehow have the power to whip them up. Having played mundane leadership characters for a good long while now (with, in theory, imm backing), I have to say your perspective on the issue is naive.

Edited to keep focused on OP's topic.

Quote from: Lizzie on July 15, 2008, 08:30:14 AMBut it is SO common, that it's easy to just shrug it off and say "so go kill them, and don't forget to pick me up a quart of milk on the way home."

Desertman wrote:

Quote"Oh look, another uber magicker, thats the third one today...Get me another ale."

Quote from: Forest Junkie on July 15, 2008, 11:54:39 AM
I agree with Desertman...

...

I hate interacting reacting to magick and talking about magick IC because it seems like mine are one of the few characters around that is genuinely afraid across the board. Seems pretty casual conversation in my experience, to everyone else.

On topic (What is your problem with magickers/magick?):

My problem with magickers is that much of magick is centered around combat.

Maybe most players dont want to play a magicker who can find someone's lost sword, assist with childbirth, put a curse on a thief, and make a lucky charm and a love potion...

...but I guess I do.

Morrolan

A great point by Morrolan.

Quote from: Morrolan on July 15, 2008, 12:40:22 PM
On topic (What is your problem with magickers/magick?):

My problem with magickers is that much of magick is centered around combat.

Maybe most players dont want to play a magicker who can find someone's lost sword, assist with childbirth, put a curse on a thief, and make a lucky charm and a love potion...

...but I guess I do.

Morrolan

Wow, I don't have the karma to play a mage and have always wanted to, but that killed it for me. Killed it DEAD. I would think, with as much as I have seen on here about the 'awesome different ways that magickers skills are/work/branch', that I was really hoping for something that was, primarily, well, noncombative.

*said the girl who loves a good merchant/crafter role where you never have to fight anything but prices*

If this is true, I see myself playing one, just one, just to see what its like before the curtains close. Same as I have with other classes which were tailored -skillwise- around stuff I had no real interest in.

Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on July 15, 2008, 12:52:02 PMWow, I don't have the karma to play a mage and have always wanted to, but that killed it for me. Killed it DEAD.

Don't listen to him.  You should still play a magicker.  They're fun.

Quote from: Salt Merchant on July 14, 2008, 11:36:46 PM
The way the pot is being allowed to boil over. Why don't the staff step in and make some definitive rulings? Instead, we're left to argue among ourselves, with the only result being increased ill will.

I'm sure many of you won't want to take my word on this, but I believe the issue here is as much player perception as anything else. By and large, the players I see running mages right now are doing a good job. They don't seem to be obnoxious, they don't seem to be too numerous, and they don't seem to be smashing down plots. For whatever reason, magickers seem to be used as a scapegoat for everything that is perceived wrong with the game at the moment, but oftentimes I think the blame is unfairly placed.

Of course, I have a perspective that you all don't. As a player, I actually agreed with many of the sentiments I see expressed in all these threads. One of the surprising things I learned when I came on staff was that the actual situation in the game isn't nearly as bad as one would think when you read the GDB. Many staff are also making a conscious effort to keep plots mundane, or focused on mundane characters.

So please, if you can, just trust us. Step back, take a deep breath, and go play your character in the game. Start creating all these mundane plots -- many of you posters are in a position to do it, and have done it before. Don't worry about other players so much, let the staff police them. It's our job, yours is to have fun.

If you'd like, feel free to email me at Rahnevyn@armageddon.org (and cc mud) if you think you have specific, current issues with the magick code or mage characters that are absolutely ruining your plots or your fun in game. I'll extend my ear to you so you can all vent. I'm not promising I'll reply, or that anything will be done, but I'll take a look at things and perhaps note them for Higher Attention. I'm interested in community feedback on this.

But please, everybody, cool down the GDB a bit.

Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on July 15, 2008, 12:52:02 PM
Wow, I don't have the karma to play a mage and have always wanted to, but that killed it for me.

Even if magickers could do lots and lots of nifty non-combat stuff, the fact is they'd still be limited as to how and when they could do these things while the documentation stands that they are feared/hated and that magick is dangerous to even be near. There will never be a Vivaduan midwife practicing regularly on mundanes, no one will openly go to a Whiran for luck charms. Magickers wanting to practice in this manner would have a very difficult time finding a clientele; I've seen it tried and slapped down ICly by PCs in authority, even. Magick would have to be widely regarded as safe and acceptable for this to happen openly.

I also see this as a drawback of mages, not being a huge fan of combat myself. It's disappointing that there are not more options for mages.

My problem with magickers is that rangers always twink-kill me before I branch.

Quote from: Fnord on July 15, 2008, 11:23:30 AM
One issue that I've experienced is that while a solo magicker might be a threat, the fact that mages are ostracized nearly everywhere but 'Nak makes them band together. Is that realistic? Should mages trust each other? Doesn't matter. It's an OOC desire for interaction. Can't interact with the rest of the pbase? We're going to interact with each other, and form groups, and completely pwn your mundanes with our fiery-watery-electrical-shadow doom.

Solution? I've always thought more strain between opposite elements would be cool RP. Should Vivs and Krathis want to make sweet love? Maybe some documentation around which elements are sympathetic and antipathetic? As for allowing magickers to interact with the pbase more effectively so they don't seek each other out and form bands? You got me...

In my opinion, being that most magickers come from ignorant commoner breeding, they hardly understand their own element--let alone others. The unknown breeds fear. I don't think any magicker should feel comfortable with any other magicker, for fear of what they might know that you do not, (if you're the same element, or sometimes in others,) or for mis-understanding or fear of what a krathi might be capable of (says the rukkian/drovian/viv/elkran... and obviously vice versa.)

The fact that so many magickers are played as "I have a deep understanding of what is happening, how things work, even in other elements..." is irking to me. This probably stems from players who play magickers liking to play them semi-often.

There is no reason for magickers not to fear themselves, even after they come to terms with what they are. Magick is not a science IC. Most "science and philosophy" in Zalanthas is based on superstition and what the eye can see, not to mention fear.

Where is the fear these days?

It's really not difficult to see gemmers learning a fair bit about their elements, and magick in general. After all, according to the descriptions of rooms in the elemental temples, and the NPCs that populate the Elementalist's Quarter, gemmers do a lot of meditating and pondering, presumably on their elements.

Quote from: Mood on July 15, 2008, 01:07:44 PM
My problem with magickers is that rangers always twink-kill me before I branch.

Sorry about that...Seeing them floating about in the distance makes my bow arm tingle.

To the OP: I have no problem with mages, the class/guild (I've played a grand total of 3 in four or five years out of like 30 characters)

I -do- have a problem when the -players- of -mundanes- or leaders ramrod a spoon down your throat to like/accept mages because they're important to them/some plot/friends IC or whatever the case may be and toss the docs clean out the window.

Now, with that said, I'm going to completely screw this thread up and give a -kudos- to the whole of the playerbase. For the last three months (from my perspective of course, others can disagree) I have seen some of the BEST RP from everyone. With the exception of the occasional blip, everyone has been stellar. Mages doing their thing, mundanes doing theirs and all mostly within the docs. I've seen plenty IC (naturally I won't speak of them) to deal with fear/loathing of mages, racial put-downs, mages being scary etc, etc.. So..awesome job to everyone.

As to mundane plots not being made and/or uber compared to magickal ones, I'm afraid I have to disagree but the proof as to why I say so is way to recent. Also, to touch on mages or mindbenders 'wrecking' plots - ....I'm afraid I just haven't seen this either. I can understand wanting to go up at something mundane to mundane (I love this myself) and being a bit disappointed if a bender or mage nosed in on it, but wouldn't that only open up three -more- options for RP? Have the noisy mage/bender killed (it's still not that hard if you work at it) Use them to help you in some capacity, or start some sort of rivalry with them? Forgive me, but it seems a bit rude to me to say a comment like that that players of mages or benders 'wreck plots' by getting involved in them. It has the same ring to it as inviting all the school classroom to your birthday party except little Amos because he has the one lazy eye (who cares about his fun or feelings?)

It's a bit of a fine line to walk in such cases, because maybe having Amos there ruins your fun in order to give him some. You just -can't- please everyone. It's impossible, so sometimes (and our playerbase is far more then capable of this) take one for the team, and likely you'll get the same favor in turn? Give and take?

Trust your fellow players/staff, take a breath and have some fun with the game.

my sids.

Quote from: Desertman on July 15, 2008, 01:14:13 PM

Quote from: Mood on July 15, 2008, 01:07:44 PM
My problem with magickers is that rangers always twink-kill me before I branch.

Sorry about that...Seeing them floating about in the distance makes my bow arm tingle.

That's not what I'm talking about.

"OH FUCK, THERE'S A GUY WITHOUT A MOUNT IN A ZONE WHERE STAMINA REGENS PRETTY QUICKLY AND PAINLESSLY!"

shout DIE 'GICKER;charge magicker

Quote from: LoD on July 15, 2008, 11:14:47 AM
That may be true if the documentation was being upheld on both ends, but it isn't.  Magick is not rare and mysterious.  It's common and overbearing in today's scene.  Within the first 2 hours of my latest PC, mining quietly outside of Allanak, I saw no less than 7 magickers, 2 casting outside of the gates within sight and 1 of them chasing me, unprovoked, down the road with obvious magickal properties.  Running in fear, I went into the local tavern to relay my tale of fright and wonder.  What I was met with were cold shoulder shrugs, two more magickers in the bar trying to defend themselves and their good intentions, and a handful of mundanes growing angry with me because I was making their magicker friends upset.

Whether this happens frequently or not, I don't know.. but it probably would happen more if people would be treating magickers a little more like the cursed freaks that they should be treated as.  I understand that some people may have IC reasons for being friends with magickers or whatever... but I think you have to stop at a certain point (even if the magicker is your friend) and not be quite so loyal to the 'freak' and offensive toward others that point out certain things like the amount of magickers running about wildly.

I can understand the cold shoulder treatment, but I really have a problem with the "handful of mundanes growing angry" at the specified mundane PC because he was making their magicker friend upset.  That just doesn't seem right at all.  Being a friend of the magicker is one thing, but being so fiercely loyal that you are putting the value of the feelings of the magicker above that of a mundanes complaints just doesn't seem to be how things are supposed to be in Zalanthas.

Quote from: Fnord on July 15, 2008, 11:23:30 AM
Solution? I've always thought more strain between opposite elements would be cool RP. Should Vivs and Krathis want to make sweet love? Maybe some documentation around which elements are sympathetic and antipathetic? As for allowing magickers to interact with the pbase more effectively so they don't seek each other out and form bands? You got me...

Actually, Vivs and Krathi would be some steamy action.  It's Krathi and Drovians that don't mix.  Actually, Vivs would mix well with just about everyone.  I don't think Elkran and Rukkian elementalists would get along very well, though.

I haven't gotten my point across very well, but we don't have to go by classical elemental relationships.

Quote from: Rahnevyn on July 15, 2008, 01:00:06 PM
I'm sure many of you won't want to take my word on this, but I believe the issue here is as much player perception as anything else.

The problem with problems of perception is that they are problems.  They're just near impossible to measure.  You may not see magickers acting irresponsibly, but what if that is because they've set an oppressive status quo?  What if other players are specifically moving in ways that don't irk their ire?  I believe this can occur completely contrary to any side's intentions, so it can be rather hard to point a finger of blame.

Still, your advice for players to do what they want to do is best.   At least then, if there is a problem, you'll have something to measure.

Quote from: Desertman on July 15, 2008, 12:01:59 PM
When it comes down to...ONE HIT KILL....It doesnt really matter if its a fireball, or having your brain melted.

James, you of all people know how powerful archery is. Does that mean we should limit the amount of rangers in game? C'mon now man, just because a guild has the potential to one-shot you doesn't mean there should be only two of them in game. Every guild has the potential to be deadly in their own way.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on July 15, 2008, 12:09:42 PM
I guess you completely missed the part where the IC info is contained in your post? Maybe you should edit. I edited your quote in my post, for reference if you need it.

Ah, good point, that didn't even cross my mind when I was posting. I'll edit in a sec.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on July 15, 2008, 12:09:42 PM
You continually smokescreen the issue of plots. The question at hand is about imm-backed super-plots that have the potential to involve many, many characters. You are attempting to divert attention from the problem by claiming that those who want MUNDANE plots of this kind somehow have the power to whip them up. Having played mundane leadership characters for a good long while now (with, in theory, imm backing), I have to say your perspective on the issue is naive.

I'm not attempting to divert attention from anything. I made a point and I will stick by it - if you want more mundane plots, create them. It's not that hard. I played a templar for a year, give or take, and yes, I did push my own plots, and even pushed forth construction on certain things, as well as worked with particular nobles and house agents alike to design and oversee construction of some really cool stuff. I didn't have to have staff backing for any of this until it was time for construction, and when I laid my plans before them, they usually were willing to work with me on a variety of issues. To call me naive and assume I've never been in a position similar to yours is, quite frankly, ignorant.

Quote from: LoD on July 15, 2008, 12:24:51 PM
Neither is browbeating thread participants.  20% of the posts in the thread at the moment are by you, so maybe you should let the thread breathe a little before you attack anyone else or their ideas.  I'm sure you'd appreciate the same courtesy if you'd started a thread designed to solicit information from multiple sources rather than watching one person aggressively chase participants down and hijack the thread.

Browbeating? I politely asked her to remove some information. I hardly consider that browbeating, so lay off, eh? So what if 20% of the posts in this thread are by myself? No one stops you from marching into every magicker thread to spread the same argument you've been giving for the past five years, so why get on my ass? If I have something to add to the discussion, you can bet your bottom dollar I will. I have the right to, just as you friend.

Quote from: Lizzie on July 15, 2008, 12:27:48 PM
...

I was agreeing with Desertman that certain classes should perhaps have more limited numbers, i.e. psionicists and sorcerors. Furthermore, I've also championed having karma regen slowly over the course of a few months, as have other players. My apologies if I made it unclear in my previous post. I wasn't simply disagreeing with you only to turn around and agree with someone else. Sorry about the mixup.

Archery does get to be badass I agree.

But you and I both know the amount of time and devotion it takes to get to that point, as opposed to how long it takes to get good enough with a magicker to have ten times the devestation affect.

We can also both agree that the danger involved in growing archery (Having to go out and shoot stuff, not to mention attaining coins somehow to get the arrows to shoot) as a skill isnt comparable to being able to sit in a temple with NPC guards watching over you while you spam cast.

Its like comparing Mt. Everest to an ant hill in your yard in terms of overall power, time taken to achieve it, and danger involved in growing that skill.

Am I really the only one who complained about magickers not being powerful enough?

Heh heh heh.

Quote from: Yam on July 15, 2008, 03:25:20 PM
Am I really the only one who complained about magickers not being powerful enough?

Heh heh heh.

Oh no, in the "Not Limiting Magickers" thread I address this.

I am 100% for making magickers more powerful than they are now.

I would rather see three magickers who are fifty times more powerful than the current variety of magicker, than 50 of the current variety of magicker.

Oh. I thought that thread was about not limiting the number of play slots.


Don't I feel silly.

Quote from: Desertman on July 15, 2008, 12:01:59 PM
When it comes down to...ONE HIT KILL....It doesnt really matter if its a fireball, or having your brain melted.

James, you of all people know how powerful archery is. Does that mean we should limit the amount of rangers in game? C'mon now man, just because a guild has the potential to one-shot you doesn't mean there should be only two of them in game. Every guild has the potential to be deadly in their own way.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on July 15, 2008, 12:09:42 PM
I guess you completely missed the part where the IC info is contained in your post? Maybe you should edit. I edited your quote in my post, for reference if you need it.

Ah, good point, that didn't even cross my mind when I was posting. I'll edit in a sec.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on July 15, 2008, 12:09:42 PM
You continually smokescreen the issue of plots. The question at hand is about imm-backed super-plots that have the potential to involve many, many characters. You are attempting to divert attention from the problem by claiming that those who want MUNDANE plots of this kind somehow have the power to whip them up. Having played mundane leadership characters for a good long while now (with, in theory, imm backing), I have to say your perspective on the issue is naive.

I'm not attempting to divert attention from anything. I made a point and I will stick by it - if you want more mundane plots, create them. It's not that hard. I played a templar for a year, give or take, and yes, I did push my own plots, and even pushed forth construction on certain things, as well as worked with particular nobles and house agents alike to design and oversee construction of some really cool stuff. I didn't have to have staff backing for any of this until it was time for construction, and when I laid my plans before them, they usually were willing to work with me on a variety of issues. To call me naive and assume I've never been in a position similar to yours is, quite frankly, ignorant.

Quote from: LoD on July 15, 2008, 12:24:51 PM
Neither is browbeating thread participants.  20% of the posts in the thread at the moment are by you, so maybe you should let the thread breathe a little before you attack anyone else or their ideas.  I'm sure you'd appreciate the same courtesy if you'd started a thread designed to solicit information from multiple sources rather than watching one person aggressively chase participants down and hijack the thread.

Browbeating? I politely asked her to remove some information. I hardly consider that browbeating, so lay off, eh? So what if 20% of the posts in this thread are by myself? No one stops you from marching into every magicker thread to spread the same argument you've been giving for the past five years, so why get on my ass? If I have something to add to the discussion, you can bet your bottom dollar I will. I have the right to, just as you friend.

Quote from: Lizzie on July 15, 2008, 12:27:48 PM
...

I was agreeing with Desertman that certain classes should perhaps have more limited numbers, i.e. psionicists and sorcerors. Furthermore, I've also championed having karma regen slowly over the course of a few months, as have other players. My apologies if I made it unclear in my previous post. I wasn't simply disagreeing with you only to turn around agree with someone else. My fault.

*edit* Weird...I somehow copied my first post into this one. Whoops

Quote from: Desertman on July 15, 2008, 03:29:25 PM
I would rather see three magickers who are fifty times more powerful than the current variety of magicker, than 50 of the current variety of magicker.

Yes, please.

Those who say that magickers are not able to do anything else than magick-y stuff, is it because the subclasses are not good enough to allow you to have a side job or a side role?

I know that the last rogue magicker I played, I was able to fool everyone into thinking that I was a merchant trader for months, with subclass jewelry.. So much so that at some point
I was wishing that I had picked merchant guild instead of Rukkian because I was so good at it and I was at the point where I could just trick people into thinking that everything
I would buy from shops to sell to characters, it was all made by me. Kadius was always trying to hire me, and I know I could have had a whole career in Kadius if I had wanted to..

Maybe if the fighting and sneaky-type subclasses were made slightly more powerful until the end of Arm 1 and until we can play a half-mage, half-warrior?

Would that make both sides happier?

Quote from: Janna on July 15, 2008, 01:18:59 PM

...
I -do- have a problem when the -players- of -mundanes- or leaders ramrod a spoon down your throat to like/accept mages because they're important to them/some plot/friends IC or whatever the case may be and toss the docs clean out the window.
...

Here, here.

However, you can always..

Talk to them, communicate the leader's needs.. Like them, no.. Plot to get them in trouble with some power bloc, yes..

Quote from: Yam on July 15, 2008, 03:35:28 PM
Oh. I thought that thread was about not limiting the number of play slots.


Don't I feel silly.

I think it was origionally supposed to be for that, but the posters of that thread just kind of went on a tangent. *shrugs*

Quote from: Desertman on July 15, 2008, 03:29:25 PM
I would rather see three magickers who are fifty times more powerful than the current variety of magicker, than 50 of the current variety of magicker.

I vote for this. (yeah, i know i don't get a vote)

My problem is all the people who seem bent on going out and hunting mages, as if they aren't afraid in the slightest of what sort of horrors and atrocities those abominations can inflict on them with only a crooked glance.  My fear is that this happens because of OOC knowledge of the weak points in code that make magickers vulnerable.


Also, I hate the fact that magicker guilds don't ever get any perception skills like listen or scan unless you pick one of the subguilds that comes with them.  It's my feeling that all guilds should have those skills, just with different caps.  I really don't think that being a magicker (or a warrior!!) means that you should be perceptionally impaired.

Quote from: Malken on July 15, 2008, 03:40:58 PM
Those who say that magickers are not able to do anything else than magick-y stuff, is it because the subclasses are not good enough to allow you to have a side job or a side role?
...
Maybe if the fighting and sneaky-type subclasses were made slightly more powerful until the end of Arm 1 and until we can play a half-mage, half-warrior?

Would that make both sides happier?

I wouldn't mind seeing something like this take place in Arm1 and/or Arm2.  There's easy ways (not that the code work is always easy) to balance things out without making them too powerful (or too weak, as the sub-guilds sorta seem currently).

Quote from: Tallulah on July 15, 2008, 03:55:55 PM
My problem is all the people who seem bent on going out and hunting mages, as if they aren't afraid in the slightest of what sort of horrors and atrocities those abominations can inflict on them with only a crooked glance.  My fear is that this happens because of OOC knowledge of the weak points in code that make magickers vulnerable.


Also, I hate the fact that magicker guilds don't ever get any perception skills like listen or scan unless you pick one of the subguilds that comes with them.  It's my feeling that all guilds should have those skills, just with different caps.  I really don't think that being a magicker (or a warrior!!) means that you should be perceptionally impaired.

And I dont think that being a ranger means you should never learn how to knock someone on thier ass by crashing into them (Bash) or lift your boot into thier crotch (Kick).

But, thats why we have guilds.

I have no problems with magick or magickers but with people that have a problem with magick/magickers without having good information.

I have never played a magicker. I don't really have any problems with them or their numbers. What I do have a problem with is that there's so many freaking threads about it. It's really annoying/boring/tiring to come on the GDB every day and find a new thread about someone complaining about the number of magickers or other issues along the same lines. The issue has been run into the ground.

I mean, come on... why do we need five active threads about the number of magickers or problems with how they are "preferred" or how to limit them?

/end rant

My problem with magick is that we don't have any Heart Elementalists.

HOW THE FUCK AM I SUPPOSED TO FORM CAPTAIN PLANET??????

Quote from: ale six on July 15, 2008, 05:41:07 PM
My problem with magick is that we don't have any Heart Elementalists.

HOW THE FUCK AM I SUPPOSED TO FORM CAPTAIN PLANET??????

lol

Quote from: Morrolan on July 15, 2008, 12:40:22 PM
On topic (What is your problem with magickers/magick?):

My problem with magickers is that much of magick is centered around combat.

Maybe most players dont want to play a magicker who can find someone's lost sword, assist with childbirth, put a curse on a thief, and make a lucky charm and a love potion...

...but I guess I do.

Morrolan

Ahh, I might want one to curse my enemy, but I don't want them around my unborn/newborn, touching my swords, or tricking me with some cursed charm that they tell me is lucky.

Quote from: Malken on July 15, 2008, 03:40:58 PM
Those who say that magickers are not able to do anything else than magick-y stuff, is it because the subclasses are not good enough to allow you to have a side job or a side role?

I know that the last rogue magicker I played, I was able to fool everyone into thinking that I was a merchant trader for months, with subclass jewelry.. So much so that at some point
I was wishing that I had picked merchant guild instead of Rukkian because I was so good at it and I was at the point where I could just trick people into thinking that everything
I would buy from shops to sell to characters, it was all made by me. Kadius was always trying to hire me, and I know I could have had a whole career in Kadius if I had wanted to..

Maybe if the fighting and sneaky-type subclasses were made slightly more powerful until the end of Arm 1 and until we can play a half-mage, half-warrior?

Would that make both sides happier?

This would make me very happy indeed.

When I made my first serious mage character, I did not intend to use her magick very much at all. The guild was chosen mostly because being an elementalist would mesh more with my character concept than being a fighter or merchant or what-have-you.

Perhaps stupidly, I picked a subguild that fit my character's background as opposed to a subguild that would give me more Things To Do. The subguild I chose -did- come with two crafting skills, but out of dozens of attempts, I managed to successfully craft one item with one skill and two items with the other.

I ended up playing with magick and casting spells much, much more than I wanted to because it was the only thing my character could do right. She wasted more money on buying materials to make her crafts (because of course, magickers don't come with some of the basic skills to help you get materials--apparently, being able to cast spells makes you incapable of snapping piles of bones into smaller peices) than on anything she ever owned... and just never got good at it.

Now, I understood the social limitations of the role when I first made the PC, but having never played a character that relied on subguild crafting before, I thought my PC would be able to entertain/employ herself a lot more with it. This wasn't the case.

With social stigma and mage-killing pushing magickers to the isolated ends of the map and most subguilds--I won't say all, but the majority of the ones I've encountered--failing to provide a character with anything they can use to pass the time, it's no surprise to me that a lot of magickers end up doing nothing but sitting around casting spells or end up being raiders or end up forming little mage groups that people on the GDB love to bitch about. There aren't exactly many other choices.

Quote from: Fathi on July 15, 2008, 07:27:52 PM
-Snip-

Ex-fucking-actly.

After reading the entire thread, here's what I agree with most strongly, and voices my opinion the best.

Quote from: Forest Junkie
Merchant houses, mercenary units, and entire tribes were created and put into the game at the behest of these [mundane] players. Name as many magickers as I have who accomplished as much, please... Roll Eyes Exactly.

Quote from: Morrolan
My problem with magickers is that much of magick is centered around combat.

Quote from: Winterless
What I do have a problem with is that there's so many freaking threads about it. It's really annoying/boring/tiring to come on the GDB every day and find a new thread about someone complaining about the number of magickers or other issues along the same lines. The issue has been run into the ground.

edit: Did I do my quotes right Seph? ;)

Quote from: Forest Junkie
Merchant houses, mercenary units, and entire tribes were created and put into the game at the behest of these [mundane] players. Name as many magickers as I have who accomplished as much, please... Roll Eyes Exactly.

My impression is that the Conclave was formed by players. Perhaps the Council of Allanaki Mages was too.

Nevertheless, how do you figure this imbalance might exist? Perhaps it's because the "group of mages" idea can only fly so many times. Or perhaps it's been due to the implicit numerical limitations on mages; a handful of scattered mages isn't enough. Or perhaps it's because the gemmed aren't free to set up such things, since they're implicitly clanned already, and the ungemmed are scattered and suspicious. Or perhaps the game has just been stagnant for a while. When was the last new clan or tribe introduced? Or perhaps it's because developing a mundane following is exceptionally difficult when they're told they all hate you.

Whatever the reason, it seems pretty apparent that mundanes have more opportunity in the game, despite all of the complaining.

Quote from: Salt Merchant on July 16, 2008, 12:18:17 AM
My impression is that the Conclave was formed by players. Perhaps the Council of Allanaki Mages was too.

The Conclave possibly was, I can't remember. The CAM, however, was created by a staff member, not players.

Quote from: Salt Merchant on July 16, 2008, 12:18:17 AM
Whatever the reason, it seems pretty apparent that mundanes have more opportunity in the game, despite all of the complaining.

Agreed.

Quote from: jhunter on July 14, 2008, 10:40:55 PM
Just simply that. I would prefer that noone respond to other posts, etc. Just simply to put together a list of the things that people don't like or the problems that they have with mages and magick. Please take a few moments to think about it and post only what is the heart of the problem for you, the plain and simple issue that you truly have with mages and magick currently in Armaggedon.

1) The pace at which their proficiency with spells increases and how often they branch new spells. I know this is only really possible when adopting a playstyle that is widely regarded as twinkish, but I also know that it is being done. I don't get why it should be possible if it's not intended, and I see nothing positive whatsoever about the fact that it can be done. It attracts too many playes, it attracts the wrong kinds of players, and the outcome is obvious even if it has improved slightly in the past six months. Until magick is made made less earth-shatteringly powerful and effortless to master, it will continue to cause an imbalance in the game and will be the cause of near-daily threads with multiple pages in negative tones.

2) The fact that almost every major plotline is wholly centered around magick in some form. Even if it doesn't technically revolve around elementalist-guild PCs, most if it is supernatural in nature and makes it much harder for mundanes to participate in a meaningful manner.

3) An overabundance of magickers and magickal elements destroys the theme and atmosphere for me. It has robbed me of the sense of wonder, fear and mystery much faster than if it was actually rare and secret. Over the course of the past year it got so out of hand that I now have a hard time enjoying anything that involves any kind of magick.

4) I find that magickers are rarely played to the standard that I expect players of 2+ karma to meet. This is linked to #1 and the fact that I believe this aspect of the game attracts too many players who desire the fast route to power at the expense of quality roleplay.

5) I find the social aspect of magick-related roleplay to be severely lacking. All of the above contributes to this, and the end result is that anything magick-related is now met with apathy and indifference almost everywhere that I've noticed. Most gemmed magickers sit in their temples the majority of the time and struggle to find reasons and opportunities to have meaningful interaction with the rest of the world. Rogue magickers are obviously very limited in that regard. Noone really seems to make any attempt at playing it out anymore, and they don't have much reason to do it either save for the fact that the documentation tells them they have to, which is just not enough when nothing else encourages it.

All in all, I just have a problem with the massively negative impact that it has all had on the game in the past year or two.

My problem with magickers is the way some are role played. It takes the 'magic' away from they mud for me when magickers act like and expect to be treated like a normal person. I might as well be sitting next to a mantis at the bar, which reminds me of other muds I don't play for good reasons.

How jaded people are against magickers IG, mostly due to misconceptions perpetuated on the GDB. 'tis nearly impossible to play one well anymore, because either the mundane population of players sleight you on the assumption of you being another bad player, or the magickal population draws together defensively against this attitude.

Quote from: Salt Merchant on July 16, 2008, 12:18:17 AM
Whatever the reason, it seems pretty apparent that mundanes have more opportunity in the game, despite all of the complaining.

Well, you have to consider the fact that many of the merchant houses, noble houses, and tribes in the game have included or employed mages throughout the game's history.  The fact that organizations like the Conclave, CAM, and Order of the Elements were exclusive to magickers may be partially responsible for them not being as popular -- they simply don't cater to as wide an audience and end up being fairly isolated and detracting from the player base.

For example, one of the founding members of House Kohmar was an elementalist.  The Ironsword clan had a few elementalists that moved through its ranks.  Criminal organizations such as the Vault and Guild have had elementalists. Raiding groups have employed elementalists.  There are human and elven tribes that both allow elementalists.

So, ultimately it ends up being an inaccurate claim that the presence of these organizations which have allowed and employed both magickers and mundanes somehow denotes more opportunity for the mundane player when compared with the emergence of organizations that are comprised exclusively of magickers.  The Imms should support a larger group of organizations and peoples that allow for a diverse and varied playing field compared to isolated pockets of <insertaclass>-only clubs.

I'd actually prefer to see elementalists better integrated into these organizations.  Allow them to assume a variety of roles that make them feel helpful and useful.  I'd rather see elementalists be hated and hunted based on their deeds rather than their class choice, because this "witch or bitch" mentality with elementalists and supernaturals only serves to limit options and choices for viable role play, and I don't think that's ever a good thing.

Magickers can still be hunted, hated, and powerful without the game world forcing that role upon them.  Let them choose to be rogue magickers, killers, and abominations the way mundane PC's can choose to be raiders, spies, and assassins.  The mundane populace can still view the bulk of them with varying degrees of suspicion, hatred, and fear based on two factors, their reputation and their actions.

-LoD

Quote from: LoD on July 16, 2008, 11:22:01 AM
I'd rather see elementalists be hated and hunted based on their deeds rather than their class choice, because this "witch or bitch" mentality with elementalists and supernaturals only serves to limit options and choices for viable role play, and I don't think that's ever a good thing.

Magickers can still be hunted, hated, and powerful without the game world forcing that role upon them.  Let them choose to be rogue magickers, killers, and abominations the way mundane PC's can choose to be raiders, spies, and assassins.  The mundane populace can still view the bulk of them with varying degrees of suspicion, hatred, and fear based on two factors, their reputation and their actions.

-LoD

Jeeze, why not take away the karma requirement while you're at it? I thought the reason they were karma-restricted in the first place was because the imms wanted to make sure the 'gicker players could handle the roleplay it requires to play a magicker. If you take away the blind hatred, and allow magickers to feel "normal" or "accepted", then what is it making them any different from a non-mundane? Rp-wise at least.

If Magickers weren't hated/feared, and if half-giants were allowed to be insanely smart, and if desert elves were allowed to live in the city, and it haflings were allowed to assimilate into normal human society, there would be no need for Karma.

I don't think it's the power of magickers holding them to that karma spot, there are a number of mundane ways to one-hit-kill another player if you work at it hard enough. It's the rp it takes to play a magicker and the limited opportunities that ties them to the karma.

IMHO at least.

No, karma is not the mark of a "good roleplayer." (Although some with karma are good roleplayers, but it wasn't merely emoting prettily that got them there; it's not a quality measure.) As stated by staff, it is a measure of trust. Trustability includes things like ability to play according to documentation, to consider the whole virtual environment while playing, enhancing the game for fellow players, and not abusing coded power.

The limited opportunities currently given to mages is not part of the karma system, rather it's a system design feature intended to provide social balance to magickers and mundanes so that PC numbers stay somewhat in balance. The idea is that these limitations on non-mundanes will keep their numbers down, because it's socially painful and difficult to play a non-mundane.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on July 16, 2008, 11:55:05 AM
No, karma is not the mark of a "good roleplayer." (Although some with karma are good roleplayers, but it wasn't merely emoting prettily that got them there; it's not a quality measure.) As stated by staff, it is a measure of trust. Trustability includes things like ability to play according to documentation, to consider the whole virtual environment while playing, enhancing the game for fellow players, and not abusing coded power.

Semantics. In my opinion, if the staff trusts a player to play a role and adhere to the documentation, then that means the player -is- a good roleplayer. You act under the assumption that players who accrue karma did so without having quality roleplay. I feel that it's the quality of their roleplay that got them to where they are now. Adhering to documentation, considering the virtual environment, enhancing the game for fellow players, and not abusing the code makes a great player. So yes, players who do these things and acquire karma are, imo, good roleplayers.

Quote from: Qzzrbl on July 16, 2008, 11:46:58 AM
If you take away the blind hatred, and allow magickers to feel "normal" or "accepted", then what is it making them any different from a non-mundane? Rp-wise at least.

There's a difference between being allowed a variety of roles in which you feel useful and helpful and feeling "normal" and "accepted" by society.  You could feel normal and accepted by a small group of people without being accepted by an entire populace.  Tolerated is probably a better word to use all around.

And what makes any character different from one another, rp-wise, is the player behind the character.

Quote from: Qzzrbl on July 16, 2008, 11:46:58 AM
If Magickers weren't hated/feared, and if half-giants were allowed to be insanely smart, and if desert elves were allowed to live in the city, and it haflings were allowed to assimilate into normal human society, there would be no need for Karma.

Well, first of all you're comparing races to classes.  Half-giants, elves, and halflings are separated by several factors including, but not limited to, physical makeup, mental capacity, and cultural influences.  Elementalists are a class choice, without an inherently different cultural or physiological makeup. And I simply think it's been a mistake to attempt to impose a culture of hatred and fear around them rather than allowing them to walk a path of varied opportunity.  Some would become the monsters that people make them out to be, while others might find a home working discretely for a merchant house or similar business.

Simply because they can be accepted doesn't necessarily mean that they will be accepted wholesale by the entire populace of a city-state, any more than elves, slaves, or foreigners are accepted wholesale due to prejudice, racism, and ethnocentric beliefs.

Quote from: Qzzrbl on July 16, 2008, 11:46:58 AM
I don't think it's the power of magickers holding them to that karma spot, there are a number of mundane ways to one-hit-kill another player if you work at it hard enough. It's the rp it takes to play a magicker and the limited opportunities that ties them to the karma.

Karma exists to ensure that the players of karma races and classes embody them responsibly, and not because they will be the most interesting role-player.  There's a difference between the two, but they are not mutually exclusive.  They often go hand-in-hand, but you can have responsible players who are not terribly gifted role-players, just as you can have gifted role-players who are not terribly responsible.  When talking about the power potential of the magicker class, I would expect the feature you want most is responsibility in their decisions.

Magickers weren't always hunted and hated, and people didn't seem to enjoy them any less.  Several people in this thread have mentioned that they thought there were just as many elementalists 10 years ago as there are today, back when there weren't even the same skill progression and power potential opportunities as there are in the current game.  I don't remember there being a thread-a-week about magick or magickers back then, nor do I remember the game feeling "full" of magickers.

Many of the people who have played in the last 5 years haven't ever known an environment like that, so I understand where it could be difficult to envision something other than what you know.  I think it held more opportunities for players in general to be able to walk a dark and a light path, to choose to be good or bad, and to be hunted and hated mostly for your actions rather than your class choice.  It'd be nice if some of that could return.

-LoD

QuoteI think it held more opportunities for players in general to be able to walk a dark and a light path, to choose to be good or bad, and to be hunted and hated mostly for your actions rather than your class choice.  It'd be nice if some of that could return.

I'd be all for that over the way things currently are. I remember way back when, defilers where the only magick users that were commonly -always- hunted down and destroyed. Elementalists were much like any other character except they used magick.

Quote from: jhunter on July 16, 2008, 12:45:45 PM


I'd be all for that over the way things currently are. I remember way back when, defilers where the only magick users that were commonly -always- hunted down and destroyed. Elementalists were much like any other character except they used magick.

Isnt it like this now?

Come down to the Gaj, you can chum it up with them every single night of the week, just like everyone else.

I say that only elves should be able to play magickers, it seems like players have absolutely no trouble being total jerks to elves, so if only elves are allowed to be magickers, then it would seem like everyone would fear and hate them more easily, no?

Quote from: Desertman on July 16, 2008, 12:50:58 PM

Quote from: jhunter on July 16, 2008, 12:45:45 PM


I'd be all for that over the way things currently are. I remember way back when, defilers where the only magick users that were commonly -always- hunted down and destroyed. Elementalists were much like any other character except they used magick.

Isnt it like this now?

Come down to the Gaj, you can chum it up with them every single night of the week, just like everyone else.

People tend to focus on the negative (mundanes interacting cordially with gemmers) and neglect to praise the positive (upholding game documentation).

Honestly, I've seen both. It's just that for people who care, watching a cheerful interaction between a magicker and a mundane is fucking irritating.

To those who still hold true, I salute you.

I second the above.

Quote from: Desertman on July 16, 2008, 12:50:58 PM

Quote from: jhunter on July 16, 2008, 12:45:45 PM
I'd be all for that over the way things currently are. I remember way back when, defilers where the only magick users that were commonly -always- hunted down and destroyed. Elementalists were much like any other character except they used magick.

Isnt it like this now?

Come down to the Gaj, you can chum it up with them every single night of the week, just like everyone else.

It's really not like this now. In order to play/live/work as a publicly-recognized magicker within a city setting, elementalists MUST choose to take the gem, and be in Allanak. And even then, mundanes are strongly discouraged from associating with them or doing open business with them; there are social and possibly other repercussions for doing so. It's just one, very forced playstyle choice, which is IMO why so many of them seem to decide to play outside the system and end up "rogue". The gemmer has no choice about the public's attitude toward him/her, and the mundane has no real choice about attitude toward the gemmer. It ends up being extremely constricting on all sides.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on July 16, 2008, 12:57:52 PM

Quote from: Desertman on July 16, 2008, 12:50:58 PM

Quote from: jhunter on July 16, 2008, 12:45:45 PM
I'd be all for that over the way things currently are. I remember way back when, defilers where the only magick users that were commonly -always- hunted down and destroyed. Elementalists were much like any other character except they used magick.

Isnt it like this now?

Come down to the Gaj, you can chum it up with them every single night of the week, just like everyone else.

It's really not like this now. In order to play/live/work as a publicly-recognized magicker within a city setting, elementalists MUST choose to take the gem, and be in Allanak. And even then, mundanes are strongly discouraged from associating with them or doing open business with them; there are social and possibly other repercussions for doing so. It's just one, very forced playstyle choice, which is IMO why so many of them seem to decide to play outside the system and end up "rogue". The gemmer has no choice about the public's attitude toward him/her, and the mundane has no real choice about attitude toward the gemmer. It ends up being extremely constricting on all sides.

Oh, I dunno. It seems there's a pretty consistent gemmer population of 4-6 at any given time. Having played a shitload of gemmers, the role isn't -that- constricting. Sure, there's things you can't do, but there's plenty of breathing room available.

This is especially true when you've got a bitchin' templar at the helm.

Agreed, mof

Absolutely agreed. I don't like it at all. Gemmed mages should be hirable by any clan or House. Gemmed mages should be forced to take coded disadvantages, though, like higher prices at stores, a delay in guards opening doors, delayed service at the pub, and stuff like this, to reflect their status. Other players should be freeer to interact with gemmed mages. Sure, one could still look down on mages and those who befriend them, but the extremes we have now are hampering to roleplay, even.

By the way, High-Fantasy has nothing to do with magick. We could all be mages and this game would still be Low-Fantasy. The term indicates the absence of good vs. evil.

re: LoD

If it's going to be a high magic MUD with gickers around every corner and fully integrated into society, then the power levels of magickers would have to be drastically reduced -- or else mundanes become entirely redundant.  (if they aren't already heading in that direction) 

You'd end up with two classes of players -- the Karma-ed players who actually get to do things, and the rest who are just along for the ride -- which actually isn't a terrible idea. It could be fun to roleplay magickers as the entitled class of Allanak that the mundane plebes fear and grovel before.  But, you know, we already got Templars filling that role.

....

The check on magickers, in the game world, is that a) the mundanes vastly outnumber them and b) there's pair of sorcerer-kings who don't want anyone getting strong enough to challenge their authority.   I'd like see those checks brought into play.

The first check can't happen unless the mundane player population actually does vastly outnumber the magicker population.  In certain areas of the game, that isn't always true.  It's hard for the mundanes to put the gickers in their place unless the mundane PCs have something like a 10 to 1 advantage in numbers.  Or even a 5 to 1 advantage would be nice.

The second check is the responsibility of Templars, staff, and to a lesser extent nobles. It should be scary to noble players and Templar players alike to see a gemmed or rogue magicker attain too much power.  Firstly, it challenges their own authority. Second, they've got a big boss in a Tower or Pyramid peering over their shoulders, probably displeased at the job performance of His minions.

A gemmer, for example, should be perpetually in fear of appearing ripe for the harvest, so to speak.  Spam casting in their temple should be suicide until the gemmer has built up a high degree of trust with a particular Templar or Oashi noble.  Even then, that gemmer had better watch his back, constantly.

Instead, we have insanely powerful gemmers hanging out in the Gaj, out hunting scarabs, and generally doing whatever until the next HRPT.  That should be pissing the Templars off, imho. The gemmers are allowed in Allanak to be tools at the disposal of the Templarate. It shouldn't be a free ride, and it should only somewhat less dangerous than being a rogue gicker.

After all, seeing a gemmer butchered in the arena would be a crowd pleaser.

Bah. No elementist should ever consider himself in a position to challange Tek for power, or even a Templar. Also, in saying what you are saying, aren't you trying to encourage rogues versus gemmed?

Making the role of gemmer less pleasant and more unplayable for players would be an excellent thing to do, design-wise, if the system goal was to move those who want to play magickers out of the gemmed role and into rogue roles. If that is not the desired outcome of the system, then it would be a very poor choice indeed.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on July 16, 2008, 01:24:48 PM
design-wise, if the system goal was to move those who want to play magickers out of the gemmed role and into rogue roles.

At least rogues don't have a nice safe temple to spam cast in.

And actually, if the role of gemmer required more finesse to pull off, it would be 10x more appealing to me. As it stands, in the exceptionally unlikely case that I play a magicker I'll have to go rogue, just because being gemmed seems like EZ-mode to me.

I haven't been responding to this thread, because I've hoped it would just die off. I hate to say it, but it feels like plenty of people either 1) have an axe to grind or 2) are describing situations that I have never seen in game, past or recently, like they are fact.

Plenty of the IC stuff that's being discussed/ranted about could be discussed/ranted about ICly instead, with likely more productive results. If you have a problem with what templars/nobles/gemmers/anyone is doing, why not handle it in game? Characters don't read the GDB, and the GDB doesn't change what characters think.

At the very least I wish we'd keep this discussion to OOC facts/opinions about the magick system and not the IC actions of characters.

Hi.

DO NOT POST IC INFO REGARDING MAGES, GEMMERS, GEMS, MAGICK, MAGICK CODE, WHERE MAGES CAN OR CANNOT CAST, AND HOW TEMPLARS MAY OR MAY NOT DEAL WITH MAGES.

The original thread topic was "What is your problem with magickers/magick?" Post what you like or do not like about the system.

DO NOT POST IC INFO. PERIOD. IF IT IS NOT IN A DOC OR HELPFILE ABOUT MAGICK, DO NOT POST IT.

I had to lock this thread while I did some major surgery on it to (once again) delete things. If it gets to this point again, I'm going to lock the whole discussion.

Thanks,
Rahnevyn

Quote from: Southie on July 16, 2008, 01:33:49 PM
If you have a problem with what templars/nobles/gemmers/anyone is doing, why not handle it in game?

Because my character enjoys living and doesn't want bad things to happen to him.

What commoner in their right mind would speak up against Lord Templar Hardnose or High Noble Fancy McSilkpants?

Dear Tek, please help us to not anger Rahnevyn anymore, amen.

Quote from: number13 on July 16, 2008, 01:28:07 PM
At least rogues don't have a nice safe temple to spam cast in.

And actually, if the role of gemmer required more finesse to pull off, it would be 10x more appealing to me. As it stands, in the exceptionally unlikely case that I play a magicker I'll have to go rogue, just because being gemmed seems like EZ-mode to me.

You need to think about how the system currently encourages "spam-casting" in temples. Are gemmers spam-casting because they can and it's an easy way to "level up", or are they doing it because they are just bored and can't find any meaningful interaction or other way to spend their time? Are they "spam-casting" at all, or are they actually just practicing in a reasonable manner on a regular basis, akin to how a Bynner practices skills?

Do rogue mages go rogue because it's harder/harsher than being gemmed, or because it's less constricting, or because it presents variety to the role, or because they will simply get more interaction that way?

Continuing to cast aspersions on the "type" of player who chooses to play a gemmer or a rogue or whatever is non-constructive, and also distracts from the primary question of how the present system shapes player choice.

Truthfully, I have had a few months of play on Arm, I have met 3 magickers I know of. One up north, 2 down south. Which, being as I have never played a character that spent much time below luirs really says something. I think you ought to play in the place where magick is straight-up illegal if you don't want much exposure to magickers on a regular basis. I guarantee that if you do this, it isn't a problem unless you purposely involve yourself in higher-reaching storylines that are, admittedly, generally magickal/supernatural in nature. Sheesh. Maybe its just me that doesn't really understand the problem here? It seems as though everyone so enjoys playing in Allanak, the one places where mages find semi-santuary, but then they want to bitch about the number of mages there. I mean, logically, even in the npc and vnpc populations, the numbedr of magickers has got to be elevated from that in other areas, simply because most mages wanting to live would probably flee there if they could, I know -I- would if the world was out to get me, I had no real way to survive on my own and thought there was a chance I might be able to carve out a life for myself somewhere. You don't want magesto be seeming more common than the average, play somewhere they wouldn't logically flock to.

Quote from: jhunter on July 16, 2008, 12:45:45 PM

QuoteI think it held more opportunities for players in general to be able to walk a dark and a light path, to choose to be good or bad, and to be hunted and hated mostly for your actions rather than your class choice.  It'd be nice if some of that could return.

I'd be all for that over the way things currently are. I remember way back when, defilers where the only magick users that were commonly -always- hunted down and destroyed. Elementalists were much like any other character except they used magick.

Exactly.  Somewhere along the road, everyone who could use magick got lumped into the same barrel with sorcerers and no one seemed to care.  There's a pile of reasons that include IC events, Immortal run plots, class changes, and a wealth of intangible factors that slowly contributed to the downward spiral over time.  My point is that the end result has left us with the majority of Armageddon class choices being pigeonholed into the roles of predator or prey. 

And there's so much more opportunity that could come about as a result of a more tolerant view of elementalism in general than what we see today.

When we cling to the predator and prey model, perpetuated by the fear/hate/loathe magickers mantra, we're effectively taking a statue of opportunity and sawing it off at the knees.  If elementalists have a home and a place in society, they have something to lose.  That means that they may decide to protect what they stand to lose, against other magickers and other threats.  They have an investment in their family, their clan, their house, and their way of life.  Those values can be manipulated by the world around them in all kinds of interesting ways.

When the system removes the opportunity to have those things before even entering the game, it simultaneously removes many of the best RP and story opportunities possible for that character.

And that's a shame.

-LoD

Chiming in to support: LoD's not lobbying for magickers to be socially identical with mundanes. Make them second or even third class citizens, but allow both sides to interact with one another on a sanctioned level above the fight or flight reaction.

Quote from: Tisiphone on July 16, 2008, 02:54:38 PM
Chiming in to support: LoD's not lobbying for magickers to be socially identical with mundanes. Make them second or even third class citizens, but allow both sides to interact with one another on a sanctioned level above the fight or flight reaction.

I've always felt, just personally, that the fight or flight thing wouldn't always be the expedient reaction. I do the same as I would IRL if someone easily kill me, I try and be as nice as possible, offering what help I can in return for, hopefully, my life. Especially when I don't know if they can catch up with me in like two seconds. And I certainly didn't report it, not when the people playing the roles were cunning enough to tell my tuluki that she would be killed for dealing with magickers outside the city, and would be in loads of trouble with the templars if she reported it. To me, that amounts to a rapist saying they'll slit your throat if you -ever- tell, and for all you know, that rapist could know the second you even let it cross your mind.

Quote from: number13 on July 16, 2008, 01:28:07 PM
At least rogues don't have a nice safe temple to spam cast in.

No, but many of them have nice safe compounds to spar to their little hearts content in. I see little difference.

I'd also like to point out that the gemmed (who can occupy temples) are only a subset of magickers. The latter include sorcerers, nilazi and the ungemmed as well, all of whom lead risky lives from day one, more or less.

Quote from: Tisiphone on July 16, 2008, 02:54:38 PM
Chiming in to support: LoD's not lobbying for magickers to be socially identical with mundanes. Make them second or even third class citizens, but allow both sides to interact with one another on a sanctioned level above the fight or flight reaction.

Huh, but even with the gemmed there are difficulties to making them lower class than commoners.  So long as gemmers are viewed as Tek's Toys, the personal slaves of Tektolnes, they will always be better than the average commoner.  The Gemmed Quarter should have been a slum as dirty or dirtier than anything normal commoners have to deal with.

As a step toward this, I might suggest providing templars with another piece of jewelry, as a mark that a particular gemmer is in their service.  Dependent on rank, they would be able to have a limited number of these gemmers for their personal retinue.  By making a few gemmers special, you might go a long way in making the rest not special.

Again, not reading the entire thread but in respect to what LoD said about mages needing niches. Here is something you all might wish to think about. On that point, LoD is 100% correct. Again, going back 10 years+ most clans in the south could and would hire gemmed mages. Tor did, only three types, but they did. Fale did, three types as well..just other kinds. Now you all go, how can that help. Well, to be honest, it spreads the mages out. They have other things to do at different times. "you" as to average PC see them in bulk far less. There are fewer rogues, etc etc. Many of you do not have the time with the game to see what really happens. Now gemmed mages have VERY little choice and must pretty much remain indy or simply not get gemmed at all. There was a time when almost every house, noble and merchant tried to employ at least one viv. Why, well, most of them did not have unlimited water scripts in clan. This is fitting with the docs. Today only one clan hires them, leaving the rest to pretty much be in your face. At the time the choice was, Be gemmed, probly get some work, make a life even if you are still disliked or go rogue and most certainly die young. Now it is, Go gemmed, be hated and bored to tears with no real way to make a life other then doing the same thing the rogue mages are doing. Or be rogue, band with other rogues and raid the piss out of every mundane you see.

You're making gemmed magickers sound awfully more miserable than they currently appear to be in-game, X-D.

Not so long ago I saw a couple of giggling, cheerful gemmed girls. My head almost exploded.

Quote from: Malken on July 16, 2008, 06:58:33 PM
You're making gemmed magickers sound awfully more miserable than they currently appear to be in-game, X-D.

Not so long ago I saw a couple of giggling, cheerful gemmed girls. My head almost exploded.

I noticed that in other, non-magicker threads, there are some people giving the benefit of the doubt. I am going to give it here. I know it may seem like a stretch, but perhaps there was a perfectly IC reason for them giggling. I mean, couldn't there be? People shouldn't have to -always- be a certain way in game, otherwise, once it starts to feel like work, they (or perhaps just I) would sit through it for a while, until finally killing off or storing theri 2-d gimp character. I mean, with all the talk about having depth to characters, why -couldn't- they have a reason to laugh.

My problem is that too many people seem to be railing against them, and at points even to the point of just outright OOC prejudice, just because they are mages. I mean, aren't the best characters the ones that change and grow, adapting to and working with the environment around them? I don't think that all mage characters should have to be pigeonholed in personality. Why should they have to have a personality thats scary, isn't it the -magick- itsself that's supposed to be scary?

Miserable...that was not my intention. My intention is to point out that The more you limit what a class will do, the more of them will be doing the same things. If you make it so they cannot get jobs, all will turn to raiding in some manner. If you make it so they cannot be in the least bit social in the city, then they won't be, leaving them to only "sit around spam casting". At one time clans and clan leaders saw gemmed as tools...or some gemmed and depending on the clan. Tor hired vivs and battle mages, they could even become privates, but no rank higher then that. Other clans hired other mages for other reasons. Vivs were highly sought after. Exactly as the docs state.

QuoteGuild Water Elementalist     (Character)

Water elementalists are the most valuable mages in existence on the parched desert world of Zalanthas. There is no better companion than an expert water mage on a long journey.

Most magicks of water mages stem from Vivadu, the elemental plane of water. Water mages are able to conjure water from that plane with ease, and can learn to have complete control over all waters, to poison or purify, to create or destroy. While possessing almost no combat abilities, water mages are powerful in more subtle ways: they are able to heal virtually any wound, create impenetrable barriers around themselves, and manipulate liquids.

Water mages are highly employable, amongst those who would hire any mage to begin with. As companions on journeys they can be worth incredible sums of money, and as permanent parts of clans or Houses worth even more. Due to the widespread unease generally felt around any mage, however, only large organizations generally will consider hiring a water elementalist.

You know...in checking the docs, the people who state that the docs say all mages and magick is feared and hated etc are in fact wrong. Most state at least in nak that it is a general unease. It is feared and hated through most of the world, specialy in the north.

Quote from: X-D on July 16, 2008, 07:39:34 PM
Miserable...that was not my intention. My intention is to point out that The more you limit what a class will do, the more of them will be doing the same things. If you make it so they cannot get jobs, all will turn to raiding in some manner. If you make it so they cannot be in the least bit social in the city, then they won't be, leaving them to only "sit around spam casting". At one time clans and clan leaders saw gemmed as tools...or some gemmed and depending on the clan. Tor hired vivs and battle mages, they could even become privates, but no rank higher then that. Other clans hired other mages for other reasons. Vivs were highly sought after. Exactly as the docs state.

QuoteGuild Water Elementalist     (Character)

Water elementalists are the most valuable mages in existence on the parched desert world of Zalanthas. There is no better companion than an expert water mage on a long journey.

Most magicks of water mages stem from Vivadu, the elemental plane of water. Water mages are able to conjure water from that plane with ease, and can learn to have complete control over all waters, to poison or purify, to create or destroy. While possessing almost no combat abilities, water mages are powerful in more subtle ways: they are able to heal virtually any wound, create impenetrable barriers around themselves, and manipulate liquids.

Water mages are highly employable, amongst those who would hire any mage to begin with. As companions on journeys they can be worth incredible sums of money, and as permanent parts of clans or Houses worth even more. Due to the widespread unease generally felt around any mage, however, only large organizations generally will consider hiring a water elementalist.

You know...in checking the docs, the people who state that the docs say all mages and magick is feared and hated etc are in fact wrong. Most state at least in nak that it is a general unease. It is feared and hated through most of the world, specialy in the north.

That is not just Vivaduans.

Quote from: Stone ElementalistsStone mages may be employed as part of an army or scouting group, for they are well able to weave protective magicks around their companions.

Quote from: Sun ElementalistsMore than any other mage, sun mages are employed for purposes of combat.

Quote from: Wind ElementalistsNearly as much as water mages, wind mages are able to sell their spells for a good profit, to those who would hire a mage in the first place. A powerful wind mage can be an absolutely invaluable ally, however, and so they may be sought out to aid in various assassinations, espionage (at which wind mages can be very good), or military operations.

Just by re-reading the helpfiles it would imply that not only do most people have a general understanding of what mages do (wind elementalist says that people distrust them because they cannot comprehend their plane-shifting and mysterious ways of moving), but still just don't trust them. At the same time it shows that at least a few are employed for military purposes, and some as regular traveling companions.

Not all fear is the run and hide fear.

Quote from: Jenred on July 17, 2008, 06:58:34 AM

Quote from: Stone ElementalistsStone mages may be employed as part of an army or scouting group, for they are well able to weave protective magicks around their companions.

When's the last time you saw a PC military unit line up to get spellabuffed?  Without anybody freaking out / going crazy / deciding that all elementalists must die?

Maybe I just haven't been in the right RPTs. :D

Quote from: brytta.leofa on July 17, 2008, 08:48:29 AM

Quote from: Jenred on July 17, 2008, 06:58:34 AM

Quote from: Stone ElementalistsStone mages may be employed as part of an army or scouting group, for they are well able to weave protective magicks around their companions.

When's the last time you saw a PC military unit line up to get spellabuffed?  Without anybody freaking out / going crazy / deciding that all elementalists must die?

Maybe I just haven't been in the right RPTs. :D

Certain ingame organizations used to utilize magick this way, but yes, it was only during one RPT that I saw it used other then in a research-ive way.

Er... one particular RPT, all the militia soldiers getting spell buffs were like: "Oh YEAH. This kicks ASS!", "Check my magick ring!" and even "My fire shield ran out, recast!"


Some of you might remember, it was down a hole.

I hate it when people try to justify points with obviously out-dated docs.

Quote from: Is Friday on July 17, 2008, 12:31:50 PM
I hate it when people try to justify points with obviously out-dated docs.

If they're outdated then why haven't they been changed?

Quote from: Is Friday on July 17, 2008, 12:31:50 PM
I hate it when people try to justify points with obviously out-dated docs.

What FJ said. The docs are the docs are the docs. There's nothing outdated about them, until they are actually outdated by a new version provided by the imms.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on July 17, 2008, 12:34:51 PM

Quote from: Is Friday on July 17, 2008, 12:31:50 PM
I hate it when people try to justify points with obviously out-dated docs.

What FJ said. The docs are the docs are the docs. There's nothing outdated about them, until they are actually outdated by a new version provided by the imms.

We agreed! *high five*  :P

Quote from: Forest Junkie on July 17, 2008, 12:35:41 PM

Quote from: Gimfalisette on July 17, 2008, 12:34:51 PM

Quote from: Is Friday on July 17, 2008, 12:31:50 PM
I hate it when people try to justify points with obviously out-dated docs.

What FJ said. The docs are the docs are the docs. There's nothing outdated about them, until they are actually outdated by a new version provided by the imms.

We agreed! *high five*  :P

ON A MAGICKER THREAD! *rofl*

Exactly, it has been mentioned many times through many threads on the subject and afaik, the staff has never said that they were outdated and were intended to be anything else.

And as of now characters are still required to read the documentation before playing. New characters will read whats there and use it as their basis for playing, not assuming they'd be outdated.

I thought just hit me, regarding claims of spam-casting to godlike powarz.

Why don't we just take out the 'Nil' for magick reach? Make magickers have to get their skills up like everybody else.

Before jumping me with, "IC INFO! GTFO!", descriptions of 'Nil' and 'Un' are under "Magick Reach" in the docs.

Quote from: Qzzrbl on July 17, 2008, 06:33:24 PM
Why don't we just take out the 'Nil' for magick reach? Make magickers have to get their skills up like everybody else.

There are valid IC uses for 'nil' other than spam-casting, and I believe it reflects some of the philosophy behind magick in Armageddon.

Quote from: Qzzrbl on July 17, 2008, 06:33:24 PM
Before jumping me with, "IC INFO! GTFO!", descriptions of 'Nil' and 'Un' are under "Magick Reach" in the docs.

Do other posters the favour of neither portraying them in a slanderous light nor assuming they are stupid.

Quote from: Tisiphone on July 17, 2008, 06:38:05 PM
Do other posters the favour of neither portraying them in a slanderous light nor assuming they are stupid.

And please do me the favor of not assuming I'm assuming anyone here is stupid.  :(

There is a slight possibility that some people on the GDB don't always check the docs before calling "IC info" on something.  ;)

I mentioned Nil in my first reply to this thread, which in on the first page. If it is indeed reflective of some of the philosophy behind magick in Armageddon, then maybe it should be put up for consideration to be phased out for Arm2, or to limit skill gains using 'nil' when casting (I have no clue if this is already done, I wouldn't be surprised if it is).

That is to say... if magickers really -are- a serious problem, and we as players are not blowing everything out of proportion, then this should be done. If it's not a problem, don't fix it if it's not broken.

Just my two cents, I don't have any experience playing 'gickers, just going 100% from the docs.

Quote from: Qzzrbl on July 17, 2008, 06:33:24 PM
I thought just hit me, regarding claims of spam-casting to godlike powarz.

Why don't we just take out the 'Nil' for magick reach? Make magickers have to get their skills up like everybody else.

Before jumping me with, "IC INFO! GTFO!", descriptions of 'Nil' and 'Un' are under "Magick Reach" in the docs.

I'm pretty sure that the 'nil' reach was implemented as the magickal equivalent of sparring sessions.  A lot of people are going on and on about how dangerous it is to train mundane combat skills...but sparring is pretty damn safe so long as neither you nor your training partner is a complete moron.  And hey, once you can mop the floor with the noob Runners coming in, chances are practicing your "other" mundane skills (whatever they may be) isn't anywhere near as dangerous as it would've been when you teleported in from the Hall of Kings.

If you took away the 'nil' reach, every magicker class built on offensive spell sets would have to what...go out and fireball scrabs to level up?  I fail to see how that's a solution, other than by the obvious fact that most would die stupid NPC deaths -long- before they ever managed to zorch a scrab to death.

The way the game is structured, removing the 'nil' cast would utterly cripple magickers, especially the offensive-based guilds.  It wouldn't be a limitation:  it would be a complete castration for newbie magickers.

The idea is preposterous, unless other steps were taken to compensate for the removal of the 'nil' reach.  There are a bunch of things I suppose you could do: a) give magickers combat skills, so they can actually whoop that scrab's ass the old-fashioned way after it shrugs off your completely ineffective level 1 fireball; b) equip the mage temples with the equivalent of magickal sparring dummies  ::); c) increase the power and effectiveness of defensive spells, such that you can boost your "protect me Krath" spell up to max before you go out and try tossing fireballs, enabling you to at least survive your first few pathetic attempts at zorchery.

I kinda agree with Syn and having the equivalent of magick sparring dummies, though any spell that would really affect an area of things might be a bit more.... difficult. If that fireball is a delayed blast fireball and someone comes walking in.. well. Poof.


OR, you know, you could practice fireball at low level with your friends.

ScaryGuy1: Ok, dude. Stand there, and put this target on your chest.
SG2: I don't like this idea, man.
SG1: No dude, its cool. Now, watch this!
*SG1 starts waving his hands around, launching a fireball up SG2's punk-ass*
SG2: Well, that burned a bit, you jerk!
SG1: Yeah, but I -totally- branched into Rain of Fireballs. Now, here's another target.....

Quote from: Synthesis on July 17, 2008, 07:02:46 PM

Alot of right-on-the-'sids stuff.

I was about to post the same when I read your post. Taking away "nil" without doing something to give them a way to practice offensive magick would be extremely crippling to mages ever learning to use them. I doubt anyone would get anywhere in the use of offensive magick without it.

Quote from: jhunter on July 17, 2008, 08:40:30 PM

Quote from: Synthesis on July 17, 2008, 07:02:46 PM

Alot of right-on-the-'sids stuff.

I was about to post the same when I read your post. Taking away "nil" without doing something to give them a way to practice offensive magick would be extremely crippling to mages ever learning to use them. I doubt anyone would get anywhere in the use of offensive magick without it.

Sigh... and Mood with the ever appropriate "QFT" without even a QFT. Dick.


But still, Don't take away Nil. Instead, here is my proposed solution.

Make Nil, when using an offensive spell, LOOK just like a normal one. If you nil a fireball, show everyone that you just LAUNCHED one, but it had no effect, like a ghost fireball. I don't know if it does this currently or not (And if I did, probably is inappropriate to say) but at least then, magickers would be some SCARY shit even in cities (Since there was no aggressive cast, there would be no crim-report, just a lot of really scared citizens, and maybe a -really- annoyed Templar knocking at your door)


If nil worked like that, I think it could actually add to the roleplay of spamcasting. Sure, you're not doing anything, and expending Mana, but at least other people get some RP out of it, right?

Uh, law enforcement reactions to different casting scenarios could easily be considered IC info, man.

Quote from: Riev on July 17, 2008, 09:23:47 PM
Make Nil, when using an offensive spell, LOOK just like a normal one. If you nil a fireball, show everyone that you just LAUNCHED one, but it had no effect, like a ghost fireball.

Now that would be pretty nice if that's not what it does already.

Quote from: Synthesis on July 17, 2008, 09:25:53 PM
Uh, law enforcement reactions to different casting scenarios could easily be considered IC info, man.

Uh, what? I'm just saying it would be cool if it actually worked like that. Maybe a drovian like, making a bar really dark would be sort of annoying, and people would be inconvenienced... but if you do a mock fireball situation, its not so much Crim-Coded, as -someone- is going to tell a Templar about it. Since nobody died or anything, maybe they don't get killed, but the Templar REALLY makes them suffer. Or, two magickers are running around the city, occasionally throwing ghost fireballs at each other. The populace is scared, but nothing gets damaged.


Even outside the city, you could stand up, and cast something at someone, and they see like, The Blue Genie from Aladdin come in and wink at them. They don't know if something happened or NOT (Except OOCly they might have an idea), so the character starts freaking out, thinking they're cursed and getting all scared, but you really did nothing to them.

Maybe its just a pipe-dream.

I love the concept of magickers and magick. When I first read the files about it when I was joining arm, I had to change my pants, and it was one main reason I joined up. (other than a certain friend recruiting me with enticing tales of the extensive crafting system)

I've played magickers very limitedly, and personally don't really enjoy them that much. In the sense of code anyway. Only magicker char I've really enjoyed was my first, a rukkian. Was fun to RP with him, and the only actual combat encounter he got into, didn't require him to attempt any mundane techniques so it wasn't too bad, until he died.

The types of stuff I'd like to see magickers do aren't really supported by the code, and when I think about it, aren't really supported too much by the concept. The fact that they're called 'elementalists' in the guild list, it threw my initial interpretation of them off.

One think I've always wanted to at least witness was magickers actually working together in the sense of mixing their elements and pulling off some crazy stuff. Magickers traveling in a pack should either be weakened and need to work together to be effective, or be stronger and be able to pull off some simpy amazing feats (even by the standard of magickers), because of the fact that either there is less magickal energies available because of the number of people draining it, or because the number of people increases the potency of the natural magicks in the area, kinda like magick magnets.

Quote from: Qzzrbl on July 17, 2008, 06:41:42 PM
And please do me the favor of not assuming I'm assuming anyone here is stupid.  :(

There is a slight possibility that some people on the GDB don't always check the docs before calling "IC info" on something.  ;)

Too true, I can name several times during which people were told to 'find out IC' with relation to -syntax-, which is ridiculous.

Like my character knows that he has 1999999 hp. Synax is -not- IC.

*sorry for the mini-rant*

I know I have the unpopular opinion here but I'm going to share it anyway. Arm has the most interested and well done magick system I've EVER seen on a mud. I think a lot of the concepts and detail put in to the casting system is really awesome.  It has a lot of potential that I think goes to waste. I love playing magicker's as much as I love playing mundane's. .This is ONLY game I have ever played where magic or magick did not mesh well with the rest of game and I think that has a lot to with how its handled by everyone.

There are a few things I don't like about the system. First I don't think the planes make a whole lot of since. It seems to me like some of the elemental types were added later on without a lot of thought as to how the planes behind them actually work. For example Sul-krath has two opposing element's while others like Elkros have none or one. Their really should be a balance of elemental magick. I say this because in every other system I've ever looked at including ones used in our own world , like in wicca or the Japanese and Chinese systems, you always have sister element for each element type and an opposing element. I think balance is important.

Secondly magick while very much a part of the history of the mud has very little place in the mud itself. Mages generally live in isolation and spend most of their time digging around for components. When they do get involved in major plot lines all the mundane players start screaming their heads off because they feel like the magickers get all the staff attention and having played on both sides of this I don't think that's really true. In fact often times mage players are told they can't get involved with a plot line or the amount in which they wish to participate is limited due to their class.

Personally I'd like to see more of  a "masquerade" style approach to be taken with regards to magick.. Where commoners never see or really interact with mages at all unless something major is going down. Meanwhile behind closed doors you have your educated nobility and magickers working together on major stuff that shouldn't be public knowledge less it start riots in the streets. Sort of a game within the game. I say this for a couple of reasons. One at max your only gonna maybe have three or four noble pc's on at a time and maybe only four or five gemmed in any one place at any given time. Allowing these two groups to work together makes the game more interesting for them, allows for  more roleplay interaction for high karma players with these roles, and keeps bored mages from stirring up the commoners. It could also allow two groups (your nobles, higher up military and magickers on one hand and your lower ranking commoners on the other) to tackle the same plots at different angles without stepping all over each others toes.

I'd like to see a Noble look at a mage kinda like having a cool new hand bag. Even if your paranoid of magick having your own loyal super powerful magicker on staff would keep other nobles mages from spying on you or messing up your stuff. Even if the Nobility isn't opened about whether or not they have one on staff. I also think especially in places like Allanak the military would be all over having a few powerful casters on hand. In fact some of the best played Templar I have seen try to do that already. I think it would make sense that the High Lord himself might want to keep gemmed around if only to keep a better eye out on anyone that might try and rise up against him. There is also the obvious military advantages to consider as well. After all nothing says "Don't Feck with me" like an army of flying, fire ball hurling mages buffing the crap out of your land based troops. Also try to bare in mind that unless all Alanak's water comes from some mystical under ground river I have never heard of all the cities water is likely coming from the cities mages.

There is a lot of potential for improvement that could be made to make the game run a lot smoother where magick is concerned. That I think would make everyone happy. It's just something that needs to be worked at. I think you can successfully have magick in the game without ruining the core that is Arm. I just don't think we will ever see the changes in the current game with a new one being built.

What I do get sick of is people complaining about it all the time. Personally I just try to enjoy the game as is. If you don't like magickers avoid places where your going to run into them all the time. Don't hire them and make a good attempt to avoid all contact with them. This really shouldn't be that hard to do.

Anyway like it or not that's my two cents.   

Quote from: Bast on July 20, 2008, 02:48:36 PM
Some stuff. . .

Good idea. Well thought out, but. . .

Hmm, yaa it's okay. I don't know rlly. One might think it's better idea to approach things like this with the mindset of the possibility; that perhaps this already -is- happening. You say so yourself that it's secret. And I've seen enough IG that would suggest that this might be so. Rly, I think what you say or suggest is already present at some lesser level, not a universal truth as you've proposed, but definately in there.

See. It's really just up to the nobles to take the incentive to hire. (It's all about personal ambition really.) And just as you say, much of it is secret. And then othertimes it isn't. . . (Have you played an Oashi Noble before ? This is the one great exception of this that I can think of where the barriers of secrecy are publicly and casually broken.)

I look at this, the stuff you say, as more a perception of what could be, or what probably already is. And you're right, nobles often use magickers, and the 'Nakki Militia go to war often with a few magickers backing them up. But it's not an everyday thing - it's magick and it's scary. . . ur not going to hire the magicker to do something menial for you are you ? Like clean the latrines ? They're killers. They make strange stuff happen. And trust me: You don't want to be around the latrines when the Strange Stuff happens. You'll bear scars.  >:(

It's. . . like doing business with a witch doctor.

And besides. You don't rlly think that the Nobility and the Magickers should have a more -casual- relationship, do u Bast ? ???