In another context, Armaddict brought up 'Blackmoon' -- from what I gather Blackmoon was a human-based (?) bandit coded clan open to play. However, I have never heard of Blackmoon inside the game, nor is there anything on the main website, the help files, or the chronology page on them, and unfortunately my search-fu on the gdb has hit a brick wall: searching 'blackmoon' has turned up a lot of pages about the black moon. Sooooo, in the spirit of the Thrain Ironsword thread a while ago...
Two things.
(1) In general, what are some stories about the Blackmoon? I assume none of these have an effect on IC or are 'find out IC' things, but I'm happy to be told that they are.
(2) More specific to the 'conflict' discussion, what are some thoughts -- reflections, pitfalls, prospects -- about the success or failures of the Blackmoon clan as a generalized coded clan for bandit RP?
My initial thoughts (granted no knowledge): it sounds awesome, and about perfect.
o Mundane Human-based. Like I said, I don't think we need a desert elf bandit clan, since desert elves are codedly quite awesome, and I'd like to see a bandit clan that isn't codedly as awesome, but still a threat to the occasional lone hunter or merchant travelling the trade routes. I also lean more towards the Badskeelz school of thought about magickers -- but not for coded reasons (although it is true magickers are codedly powerful), but lore reasons: I dislike seeing so much magick in the game. I'd rather just see a vanilla mundane human raiding clan out there.
o A Coded Clan. One pitfall to starting your own bandit group is that you have to recruit IG, and recruiting people into a bandit group is... to put it mildly... a pretty sticky pickle, not just because of trust issues, but because, well, how would that conversation go? Hey! Want to join my raiding party? Sure! Then, by the time they are codedly OK enough to do something fun, they are either dead or have been bought off by some other group out to kill you and your kin. Hence, a coded clan where people join your clan via chargen seems the way to go (with clan caps, etc.)
o Staff / Virtual World supported. Presumably, this would prevent PCs from rallying together to wipe out the clan in the same way that PCs can't just roll into the Tablelands and wipe out the Soh Lanah Kah camp.
(Also, from what I gather, Benjari were also a bandit group -- I'm not sure if they were ever open to play, however.)
Blackmoon was a desert elf tribe, and way OP in the same way the Tan Muark were (as far as holdings go). They would need some heavy reworking in order to fit in, and i'd rather that time go into opening a new desert elf tribe with less baggage, honestly.
There was also the Zimund Gur (might be botching the name, it's been a while) and other raider clans that basically went the way of the dodo, for reasons that Taven described. People have an 'enemy' to band up against, and you suddenly find 3-5 clans all looking to wipe your ass out.
I'd rather have a race of arachnid demons portaling in ala Asheron's Call or something, some 'nemesis' that is similar to the Gith but maybe way OP and hard to kill and ubiquitous. A raiding clan will just get wiped, quickly. I do see having it as something you can 'point' into ala the Desert Elf tribes as something fun -- Play on the side of "good" city-faring society-driven X Y Z, or play in the 'Wasteland Warrior' side of things. Or play as a loner in Red Storm. Maybe don't allow Muls or Giants to buy in to the Wasteland Warrior Raider clan. They have to start as loners, and perhaps be woo'd by the raiders.
Mundane human-based, i'd be cool with, but I don't see it lasting long. If there were a new tribe/raiding clan, it might be nice if it was mundane/hated magick, to fit the theme of the game better. I do like the shamanistic ideals in the Arabet/Seik/Sun Runners, but I think that can actually be accomplished without real magic. Spiritualism /= Magick.
Quote from: Reiloth on December 07, 2016, 12:04:18 PM
Blackmoon was a desert elf tribe, and way OP in the same way the Tan Muark were (as far as holdings go). They would need some heavy reworking in order to fit in, and i'd rather that time go into opening a new desert elf tribe with less baggage, honestly.
OMIDROV, so they were desert elves. Ugh. I'm still interested in stories, but that changes a lot about my own reflections.
Quote
There was also the Zimund Gur (might be botching the name, it's been a while) and other raider clans that basically went the way of the dodo, for reasons that Taven described. People have an 'enemy' to band up against, and you suddenly find 3-5 clans all looking to wipe your ass out.
I would like to see the raiding clan having a kind of privileged status in the virtual world that would discourage 'wipe out' plots, but encourage 'let's guard the caravan/merchant in case of a raid' plots. This could be accomplished in a variety of ways: a hidden hideout somewhere that players are discouraged from going; a treaty with dangerous NPCs (like the elves have) to prevent random indies running in; etc.
They're still around. They run the Desert Elf Outpost, and are NPCs/vNPCs. Their holdings are still around too. You can find them IG.
Quote from: nauta on December 07, 2016, 12:14:31 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on December 07, 2016, 12:04:18 PM
Blackmoon was a desert elf tribe, and way OP in the same way the Tan Muark were (as far as holdings go). They would need some heavy reworking in order to fit in, and i'd rather that time go into opening a new desert elf tribe with less baggage, honestly.
OMIDROV, so they were desert elves. Ugh. I'm still interested in stories, but that changes a lot about my own reflections.
Quote
There was also the Zimund Gur (might be botching the name, it's been a while) and other raider clans that basically went the way of the dodo, for reasons that Taven described. People have an 'enemy' to band up against, and you suddenly find 3-5 clans all looking to wipe your ass out.
I would like to see the raiding clan having a kind of privileged status in the virtual world that would discourage 'wipe out' plots, but encourage 'let's guard the caravan/merchant in case of a raid' plots. This could be accomplished in a variety of ways: a hidden hideout somewhere that players are discouraged from going; a treaty with dangerous NPCs (like the elves have) to prevent random indies running in; etc.
The only way I see this working is by them having an Outpost that they 'protect'. Akin to Deadwood or something. So the Kuraci and other people are kill on sight (hate list), but maybe loners and other people can come there to trade.
Other way around too -- These raiders are kill on sight in Allanak and Luirs and Tuluk, but can hang out and trade at their own place.
The Blackmoon Raiders were not a desert elf tribe, nor do they run the desert elf outpost. You're thinking Blackwing.
That said, I admit I can't add much into this discussion. When I first started playing, I could remember rumors and concerns from city based organizations about the Blackmoon. If you joined the Byn or AoD, it was standard procedure to strip new recruits naked ad inspect them for any Raider specific markings, for fear of infiltrators.
Recruitment was all IG (again, only what I remember) and I managed to have a single character, a half-elf, recruited into the group, but I didn't get to experience much of the clan. They died during a hunt with another clan member something like a day or two after being recruited.
There is also a bunch of background information of what the clan was up to, it's politics and such and such, but I didn't learn any of this until RL years later and through other characters that stumbled onto the information. Much of it falls under the heading of IG spoilers, still.
Quote from: Pale Horse on December 07, 2016, 12:49:10 PM
The Blackmoon Raiders were not a desert elf tribe, nor do they run the desert elf outpost. You're thinking Blackwing.
That said, I admit I can't add much into this discussion. When I first started playing, I could remember rumors and concerns from city based organizations about the Blackmoon. If you joined the Byn or AoD, it was standard procedure to strip new recruits naked ad inspect them for any Raider specific markings, for fear of infiltrators.
Recruitment was all IG (again, only what I remember) and I managed to have a single character, a half-elf, recruited into the group, but I didn't get to experience much of the clan. They died during a hunt with another clan member something like a day or two after being recruited.
There is also a bunch of background information of what the clan was up to, it's politics and such and such, but I didn't learn any of this until RL years later and through other characters that stumbled onto the information. Much of it falls under the heading of IG spoilers, still.
Oh hey, dat so true.
I was thinking of Blackwing not Blackmoon.
I'm not even sure how much can be talked about, even though its all old.
Yeah, don't confuse blackwing and blackmoon.
The game is different now. Back then, staff were different. Blackmoon had some immortal interaction good and bad and was set up to be fun for awhile. I'm pretty sure an avatar or two was involved. And they LOVED playing their Avatars.
So imagine having four or five PC players and yourself all request an Immortal to build you a hidden desert raiding outpost, and they do it. That's basically blackmoon from what I understand. That only lasted so long, hideout was discovered, dead, gone. I actually think it happened in tandem with larger stories, somehow like northern and southern armies got involved.
.
Yeah. Blackmoon was not Blackwing.
Blackmoon was a coded tribe with an encampment on top of a plateau. The only access was to have them lower an elevator, making them pretty much impervious to invasion/eradication until it was a staff decision to see them go (players did it; but this was during the time where world-changing plots were solely staff run and players were invited in). Whether that was player-planned and staff hopped on, or whether staff implemented it, I can't say, I just know it got the go ahead from staff for the clan to be eliminated.
Blackmoon was a Mecca for muls, and escaped slaves altogether. They were welcomed there, and it was a true outlet for muls to act as the general of a small military community (as per the documentation on muls and the 'common sense' from Dark Sun. Muls often lead when not enslaved). Blackmoon generally raided in numbers; lone travelers were their prey.
Someone noted above that they were notorious for not killing people who cooperated. That was true. But people were just as prone to running away as they are now, and escapes happened often. They were also notorious for being ballsy; They assaulted Luir's gates a few times when I was playing my first long-lived ranger, Zylin. I got to kill one with arrows before they beat it.
The northern span was a very dangerous place during the days where raiders were more common. It was a bottleneck, something that when you looked in that direction and saw someone, you had a serious issue of doubt as to whether they were peaceful and resting, or waiting for a target. It was a different wilderness dynamic that I don't experience often today; for the most part, you can assume that people are friendly out in the sands. Either that, or I've just been extremely lucky in who I ran into for like...six straight years. XD
Notably, LoD ran a very famous Blackmoon leader named Bushman. He was the first 'lone archer' scenario I ever encountered in the game, and I was both an ally and enemy with different characters. It was what led me to coming up with an idea of how to react to it suitable. Bushman routinely hassled large groups until he was notorious enough that he could demand tribute from Byn units outside the gate, and they'd pay it.
Overall, they were the big fish of most of the desert. There were small raiding groups at any given time, but all the small groups cowed to the Blackmoon raiders. I often talk about how much it's changed, as far as the wilderness being far less dangerous than it used to be; it's not because of critters, it's because raiding and pvp out in the desert was once welcomed and facilitated. While we don't outright say 'no, this is bad', we are not exactly welcoming as a community towards the idea of a group that targets solely based off of opportunity nowadays, because it doesn't fit a specific narrative. It just fits the world.
Oh yeah. I forgot. I got really weirded out when I started to play Armageddon, because as I got more aware of how things worked, I also noted how strange it was that sometimes, my employer would have me strip down for inspections, particularly when I was a 'fresh recruit'.
I found out later that it was a routine thing done at the time, because Blackmoon had the 'rule' that the black moon tattoo had to be given. It could be hidden, but you'd have one. At the time, people were incredibly paranoid about blackmoon spies, because they would purposely infiltrate other entities in order to be kept in the loop of upcoming opportunities they could get involved in.
Sometimes, Blackmoon was the unforeseen, profiteering third party that arrived out of nowhere in a conflict. Notable to this is one of the skirmishes between the north and south prior to the war, where they essentially came and wiped out the victors in order to claim the spoils.
These stories are amazing, Armaddict. I'd soooooooo love to see a Blackmoon-style group returned.
More stories!
Quote from: nauta on December 09, 2016, 03:32:36 PM
These stories are amazing, Armaddict. I'd soooooooo love to see a Blackmoon-style group returned.
Start one! :)
Quote from: Akaramu on December 09, 2016, 04:09:10 PM
Quote from: nauta on December 09, 2016, 03:32:36 PM
These stories are amazing, Armaddict. I'd soooooooo love to see a Blackmoon-style group returned.
Start one! :)
Unfortunately, that was kind of the point to the stories. They existed back when staff were less Storytellers as they were group Dungeon Masters. Someone decided the idea of Blackmoon was good, and gave them support. A place to call home, a tattoo, ranks, and some other things. But as was also mentioned, while it makes sense for the setting, it doesn't work out well for the player base we have these days. There are no Halaster's, no Plainsman, no Shattered, we're in a VERY low dip for the Low Fantasy part of the game. You can't just "start a raider group" because the closest you get is a family tribe at best, and there is no promise of staff support which is, frankly, necessary.
Quote from: Akaramu on December 09, 2016, 04:09:10 PM
Quote from: nauta on December 09, 2016, 03:32:36 PM
These stories are amazing, Armaddict. I'd soooooooo love to see a Blackmoon-style group returned.
Start one! :)
Maybe. The current MMH documentation (and my recent experience with a gang in the rinth and staff support for an MMH pursued there) makes this a very real possibility for a player-created bandit clan out of Red Storm. (That said, I find playing in Red Storm to be OOCly frustrating with the storm, the death beetles, and the gates closing. A looooot of downtime to put it mildly.)
Quote from: Riev on December 09, 2016, 04:12:15 PM
Quote from: Akaramu on December 09, 2016, 04:09:10 PM
Quote from: nauta on December 09, 2016, 03:32:36 PM
These stories are amazing, Armaddict. I'd soooooooo love to see a Blackmoon-style group returned.
Start one! :)
Unfortunately, that was kind of the point to the stories. They existed back when staff were less Storytellers as they were group Dungeon Masters. Someone decided the idea of Blackmoon was good, and gave them support. A place to call home, a tattoo, ranks, and some other things. But as was also mentioned, while it makes sense for the setting, it doesn't work out well for the player base we have these days. There are no Halaster's, no Plainsman, no Shattered, we're in a VERY low dip for the Low Fantasy part of the game. You can't just "start a raider group" because the closest you get is a family tribe at best, and there is no promise of staff support which is, frankly, necessary.
Eh, I wouldn't put it all in staff's camp. I think ultimately, staff's role to play is some limited support, but nothing momentous. This is not supposed to be a world changing group, just a part of what world exists. Right now, that portion of the world is under-represented.
Moreso, I think that we have a problem with the antagonist role. Or more specifically, we have a problem with anti-antagonism. People keep talking about 'stamping out' conflict, and blaming the quickness to kill. I don't think that's the problem. I think one raider clan that can recruit IC'ly will survive a good long time with very limited support, given that not everyone in the known decides to band together against it.
It's a raider group. Allanak doesn't care unless they're outside with a force. The byn doesn't care unless they get hired (and it should be noted that they will turn it into escort contracts more than seek and destroy, because the latter eliminates further contracts). The merchant houses don't care unless one of their wagons come under attack.
This is why we had so many clans before, was that everyone was of a 'stay out of each other's business' mentality, which was very very healthy for the state of conflict in the game. One antagonist group didn't often arouse the ire of the rest of the playerbase. It was all situational, where you secured -your- shit against it, then left everyone else to fend for themselves.
It's a player mentality problem, of us playing this game as a cooperative vs evil type game. We seem to have a hard time giving ourselves tunnel vision on our characters and their interests. This isn't saying that people are unsensible; given the amount of content in the game to be involved in, people are hungry. But that hunger has led to kind of an unhealthy state of the playerbase where we're feeding our own disliked things in the game.
The farthest I'd say staff needs to be involved is to continue to incentivize good behaviors on more fronts than they currently do. If there's a group starting conflict, mold the way that it's conflicting if it doesn't fit. Sometimes that can be heavy handed, sometimes that can be subtle hints, but there are lots of IC ways to get it handled. If you see people dogpiling a conflict that shouldn't be theirs, take an approach that brings up why that's weird. Find out why. Make them explain it. If there's a group doing things poorly or in a non-representational way, correct that particular behavior.
The only place I think -requires- staff involvement is in massive world conflict, in order to ensure the static sandbox of the game remains intact. Players with their goals all want to document momentous change to be remembered by, and sometimes that does not coincide with the best interest of the continuing game-universe. That and there's a lot of facilitation, directly, required for it.
Quote from: Akaramu on December 09, 2016, 04:09:10 PM
Quote from: nauta on December 09, 2016, 03:32:36 PM
These stories are amazing, Armaddict. I'd soooooooo love to see a Blackmoon-style group returned.
Start one! :)
There's opportunities out there for those who want to raid, though it depends on where your PC's from and hangs out.
I do think that's an important concept, Armaddict. More times than I can count I've been blindsided from all angles to where I'm just like, well shit, what are THESE guys doing in on it too? My beef is with entity X over here, and entity W, Y and Z are all now clammoring to murder my ass.
Quote from: Dunetrade55 on December 09, 2016, 05:38:36 PM
I do think that's an important concept, Armaddict. More times than I can count I've been blindsided from all angles to where I'm just like, well shit, what are THESE guys doing in on it too? My beef is with entity X over here, and entity W, Y and Z are all now clammoring to murder my ass.
I don't think it's unreasonable. People finally see an antagonist, someone who's purposely being an asshole, and they don't want to let them get away with it.
But I think it's important that small-scale conflicts stay small scale until such a time that they can actually survive the large conflict. A raider group fighting one group can recover from losses. Thus, killing their PC's is not that damaging. It's when they get strangled from all sides that they really just...can't recover.
To those groups who should be disinterested, but need something to do? Watch on closely. Hire spies to keep tabs on it, without any authorization to influence anything. Look for opportune times to influence things in your favor, regardless of which side that means helping. If these small scale things live long enough, more of them will start springing up, each of them at odds with different groups.
I don't think we need a massive enemy for all of us to go america fuck yeah on together. I think we just need enough small ones that everyone has a group they're at odds with but can't effectively wipe out. A raiding clan isn't wiped out when two of its PCs get killed in a failed raid. It does get wiped out if that's the moment that the uninvolved templar sends his mages to make sure that group never rises again, or that merchant house decides to stop trading because they're a raiding group.
So I hope you get one off the ground, Nauta. And I hope the various groups have the common sense to say 'Oh. That's not my problem.' and create their own conflict elsewhere, rather than jump onto the convenient dogpile.
An excellent post, Armaddict. I agree entirely. And same, Nauta. Maybe one day we'll meet and both be like, "This is a raid! Don't resist and I won't have to gut you!" "Hey! That's my line?!" "Who the fuck's raiding here, and who's getting raided?!" "I dunno, thinking's hard, let's go get a pint instead." "But this is a raid!" "Right, and I'm thirsty."
This thread is so exciting (and I'm trying to rally LoD to reply!). The Blackmoon were juuuust before my time, but I remember being trained ICly to be cautious on the road exactly because of their legacy.
For the folks saying raider groups need staff support, I don't necessarily agree with that. The right words to your local crimelord or, even better, shady templar, could get you a long way. All you need is a good terrain recon and a solid plan.
The Black Moon were amazing, I only got a chance to be at the "hideout" once or twice but you're right about it being a haven for muls and ex-slaves that was their bread n butter. Crazy how well they were organized after the fact they all got together in the first place, I guess like-minds.. you know.
also I agree its not as hard as some would say, to get something like this happening again. Small scale at first, you have to build your brand! Get people to notice your efforts and the the next character they make (after ya kill em >:( ) will likely be a badass raider who comes waltzing your way with a great reason you should have em on your crew! ;D
Raiders need a "safe-space" to be able to chill when they're not out ruining people's days.
It's why the blackmoon and redfangs were able to pull off what no group of independents could ever hope to do. If you think you can retreat to red storm or some cave in the middle of nowhere after a hard day's villainy, well, better get your next PC concept ready.
QuoteIf you think you can retreat to red storm or some cave in the middle of nowhere after a hard day's villainy, well, better get your next PC concept ready.
Red Storm is still relatively safe as long as you treat it the same as you treat any other hideout. Safe, but not -actually- safe. The same way taverns are safe, but not -actually- safe. You still have to be on your toes and ready to react to things.
Bases do make everything easier. But I'd like for people to not be discouraged by humble beginnings. You don't need a base to make a name for a group. You just need a target and a bit of healthy paranoia.
Edit: This is also reinforcement of the game world. Red Storm may get assassins and such sent into it, but the state of Red Storm really don't give no fucks if a raider lives there unless the raider is purposely using it as a safe haven from hot pursuit. That last part is important.
QuoteBases do make everything easier. But I'd like for people to not be discouraged by humble beginnings. You don't need a base to make a name for a group. You just need a target and a bit of healthy paranoia.
There's a very good reason no one's ever been able to pull off a successful independent raiding gang since literally the start of armageddon. But by all means, my man, I encourage you and those saying how easy it is to actually attempt it. Show me and those other scrubs (some who had mulish karma) how wrong we've all been doing it.
I'd like to see both models at play: (1) you can make your own group (which is in play right now), but (2) you can also just roll up a raider out of chargen and pop into a bandit clan.
There are different play styles. Sometimes you want to start from scratch and RP someone starting a bandit group. But sometimes you just want to play a bandit!
For what it's worth, here's the old landing page to the blackmoon clan page (http://old.armageddon.org/ic/blackmoon/) (and the archived version (http://web.archive.org/web/20010909205231/http://www.armageddon.org/ic/blackmoon/bminfo2.html)).
QuoteThere's a very good reason no one's ever been able to pull off a successful independent raiding gang since literally the start of armageddon. But by all means, my man, I encourage you and those saying how easy it is to actually attempt it. Show me and those other scrubs (some who had mulish karma) how wrong we've all been doing it.
The raiding group I was in with three to five members for about five months (I don't know about after that because I died) count? What about the solo raider I played that was active around allanak for three months or so a few years back? What about the raiding group that was based out of Red Storm in the past two years? I mean what's your standard of success here? Are you saying that you have to achieve momentous things for it to count? If so, I entirely disagree and think you're not really having failures occur, you're just expecting too much out of the role.
Edit: I mean really? Literally from the beginning of armageddon? Never? You really think in all this time, with my repeated allusions towards raiders I played, that none of them were ever self-started? You encourage me to try? You don't think I'm referring to my own experience when I tell you how it was vs how it is?
Quote from: John on December 10, 2016, 11:05:40 AM
For what it's worth, here's the old landing page to the blackmoon clan page (http://old.armageddon.org/ic/blackmoon/) (and the archived version (http://web.archive.org/web/20010909205231/http://www.armageddon.org/ic/blackmoon/bminfo2.html)).
Very cool. There's this too (linked from the first link):
http://old.armageddon.org/ic/blackmoon/bminfo.html
A large hooded figure arrives from the west
A large hooded figure subdues you!
A large hooded figure says "drop pack"
>remove pack
You can't, you're subdued!
A large hooded figure says "drop pack"
>remove pack
You can't, you're subdued!
A large hooded figure says "drop pack"
Another large hooded figure hits you on your head, knocking you out!
....
I played a blackmoon raider who got joined Borsail Wyverns and eventually became Corporal in the ranks, with a recruiter flag and all. Corporal Bal. He was caught by a red robed templar and killed in the jails.
I have some very fond memories of Blackmoon. They were a very cool clan that added a lot, imo. I had a Borsail noble in Tuluk (Silverwood) who was assassinated by them. I also played several members of the clan and had some great times both raiding and just sitting around a fire BSing.
Good times!
I never played in the Blackmoon myself, but even just their presence in the game world inspired fear and caution and an ever-present antagonist (even if they weren't present!) that anyone had to be wary of, no matter where in the gameworld they were since they had free reign to raid anywhere, at any time. Everyone knew that they could suddenly become their victims, that they had the strength and wherewithal to back it up. I agree with the sentiment that this sort of thing is sorely missing in today's Zalanthas - the recent gith threat was something, but given that I believe they were essentially isolated geographically to a specific locale, it never felt like they were really antagonists unless you were already living where they were, or went to where they were (and if you did, you might've been pretty stupid?).
My most memorable encounter with the Blackmoon was with a character that was a magicker, and had taken the gem. This character hired the Byn for an escort from Nak to Tuluk since nobody wanted to get raided or worse, because that threat was serious and ever-present due to the Blackmoon in substantial part. So off my gicker went, with a good contingent of hired shitcloaks as escort, and things were mostly quiet and smooth, until they hit the span. Just after, the Blackmoon came upon us, and there was a great Mexican standoff on the road. The Blackmoon weren't stupid - they had similar numbers to the Bynners, and they were about to let us pass until one of them happened to catch sight of my character's gem. I believe the Blackmoon had a beef against gickers, or maybe just their leader at the time, because as soon as they caught sight they demanded the Byn turn my character over. The Byn Sergeant though, one broken-nosed Sergeant Iltrin decided that well, that wouldn't be so good for his reputation, and so refused to turn my gicker over. There was a stare-down, and then all hell broke loose when my character, fearing the worst, decided to take matters into hand and began magicks aimed at their leader..
It was a tense, thrilling scene, that was only really possible because the Blackmoon existed, and played their role admirably. I hope we see something like them again.
Quote from: IntuitiveApathy on December 11, 2016, 05:12:39 AM
... until they hit the span. Just after, the Blackmoon came upon us, and there was a great Mexican standoff on the road.
Chokepoints! These are so useful for a successful bandit (that wants to rely on a little more than the goodwill of the victim.)
The south doesn't really have any. I love the Tablelands and the Volcano Region (including the Span) for just this reason. Of course, nowadays zero PCs go to Tuluk and something approaching 0 go to Morin's. I wish you could take the terrain diversity of the north, strip all the pretty things from it, and slap it in the south: rugged cliffs, chokepoints, dangerous pits, climbable buttes, twisting ridges, steppes, volcanos.
I never got anything but the 'drop pack' and 'Bushman arrow to the neck' treatment from the Blackmoon, so I was never particularly impressed.
Quote from: Synthesis on December 12, 2016, 10:31:25 AM
I never got anything but the 'drop pack' and 'Bushman arrow to the neck' treatment from the Blackmoon, so I was never particularly impressed.
Impressed or not, I assume it made you similarly wary of fellow travelers in the wilds like me, which I think is the real boon to the thing. :D
My first memory of Black Moon raiders were in the form of NPC's that raided along the North Road outside of Tuluk -- there were elves, half-elves and many of them had "raider" as part of their sdesc because they must've been just...standing in threatening raideresque poses all day. ;) The descriptions of these NPC's all had the symbol of black moon on them.
After some time, the Black Moon was opened for play as a clan, and I don't remember any particular encounters with them on other characters, but I do remember hearing stories of them and mentions of the "leader of the Black Moon" out and about. Though this was just the current figurehead and not the actual leader, it did lend an interesting element to the dangers of the wild desert and the denizens you may encounter.
I eventually decided to apply a character for the Black Moon raiders, whom was just a brand new character like any other, that most people came to know as Bushman or Sandman.
Whom they met would largely depend on what persona I was trying to front. Bushman was the name the Black Moon Raiders gave me, since I was a ranger and often roamed the wilderness looking for people out and about. He was also rumored to be particularly blood-thirsty, and I did have some reoccurring encounters with Synthesis (hey buddy) and others during my tenure, but I hope that his recounting of those encounters wasn't the standard for most people. Peopled tended to remember arrows in the neck, and I don't pretend that he didn't get a fair share of them, but I would have to argue that it was likely because that was the most routine option he presented to me.
My goal with playing Bushman, and with playing a Black Moon raider at all, was not to have a chance to kill players or to create a sense of danger through wanton murder or meaningless combat, but to provide a competent and intelligent non-magickal threat to the wilds.
For those that are interested, I'd like to talk about my general overall strategy and then a few fun stories of encounters I had over that time.
My day would generally begin with me leaving the Black Moon base and either heading south toward Allanak or north toward Luir's. Once I reached the gates, I would hunt the area and see if I could find any signs of travelers, either visually or through their tracks. Once I found someone, I would follow them around and observe them for a while -- always conscious of my mount's various stamina, distances to safe havens and my surroundings.
My most common encounter would begin with me riding into the same room as the person I was following. When we traveled as a group, this was accompanied by half-giants grabbing you, muls guarding the exits and someone shouting, "Submit to the Black Moon Raiders or DIE!", but I took a different approach when I traveled by myself. I wanted them to have a chance to role-play a scene of being raided, but combat generally removes the subtle nuances and fun of those encounters. Spam fleeing does, as well, but that reaction is partly telling me that I am doing a good job being threatening (success!).
Those that didn't simply spam flee from me the moment they saw me would generally be approached in a friendly and casual manner. A brief chat about the weather, the hunt, what the person is doing. Eventually that dialogue would lead to the point that "traveling out in these sand can be dangerous work, and a fellow like yourself could probably use some protection." Most people understood the shakedown that was happening, but I was always amused by the newer players that would say things like, "I just need wrist guards...I can't find any."
Honestly, from my perspective, as long as the person was willing to give me something...anything...some coins, their boots, one of their weapons, some kind of concession that allowed them to be "raided" and submit to that -- I not only wasn't going to hurt them, but I probably WOULD have helped them if I encountered them again and it was convenient for me to do so. Unfortunately, about 9 out of 10 people just told me to suck it and ran for the gates.
Enter arrows to the neck.
I won't lie. I killed more PC's with Bushman/Sandman than with all of the rest of my Arm characters put together. It wasn't because I was blood-thirsty or loved ending people's characters, but mostly because the player just didn't want to be raided and I was playing the role of consequence in the poor decision of their character. The desert should be dangerous to more than the newer players that don't understand the mechanics of desert movement and its various NPC and automated threats. They should have to contend with intelligent threats from time to time and be forced to sometimes NOT win those encounters. It makes it unpredictable and challenging, and that often makes it fun.
Since most people would just run from me, I had to devise a few tactics to get them out of the city and bring them to me. So, here are a few stories of my more favorite tactics/moment.
Lone Kank.
Riding a couple of rooms west of the main gates of Allanak, I would rest mount kank and then hide behind it. And wait. Invariably, someone coming to the gates at dawn would look west and see a lone kank standing there. Not just standing there, but resting. A resting kank and no one in sight could either mean that its owner was fighting something and had to flee (opportunity!) or that its owner was dead (opportunity and maybe free stuff!) OR that Bushman was hiding in the room waiting for you to show up. Ha-HA sucka! Gotcha!
This, at least, generally allowed me to say ONE sentence before the spam fleeing started.
Path of Shards
Up in Tuluk, west of the gate was too close to the city and too widely traveled for the lone kank to be as effective. I needed them to be slightly tired and out of their element before having our initial conversation. So, I would spend some time foraging those little shards of agate, quartz and such and then leave little trails on the ground as such.
> drop shard on the ground, pointing west.
> west
> drop shard on the ground, pointing north.
> north
> drop shard on the ground, pointing west.
> west
And THEN I would hide and wait for someone to follow my trail of raidery bread crumbs to our first conversation. Again, this usually resulted in spam fleeing, but at least I got to have some fun with it and I always imagined their surprise when they showed up to that kind of encounter. Surviving in the wilderness is hard work, even for accomplished players, so having a threat that can maintain some sense of consistency is both a challenge and a great rewards (I think for both raider and victim alike).
The Draw
Sometimes the raided masses would rally the troops and enlist some type of champion, usually in the form of a more accomplished House employee, whom would gather up packs of 4-5 players and go scouting around for me, but run and hide in the city when it was ever one-on-one. Occasionally I wanted these people to know they weren't safe, so I would wait until they were sitting in and Inn or Tavern and then shout, "Hurry! There's a man at the gate dying and needs help! Please help!"
I would then wind through the crowds and get back a coupe of leagues out from the gate and watch until said person came to investigate the hurt person (because it's something to do), and then give them a couple of poisoned arrows for their trouble. Not usually enough to kill them, just enough to scare them and make them afraid within the safe walls of their city.
Help!
One of my favorite moments was when we were traveling around as a group and we set up north of Luir's. I sat on the road by myself guarding the northern direction, while the rest of the group hung out just off the road watching for someone to enter. This went on for quite a while, however, so I eventually decided to go into Luir's and see if I could draw someone out. I dismounted and walked into the output and found one person siting at the bar. I walked over to the person and frantically told them that my travel companion was mortally wounded and I couldn't carry them any farther, and asked for them to help me.
They were suspicious, but I told them exactly where they were and pleaded my guts out for them to help. I might've cried a little.
They eventually agreed and came with me. When we reached the area in question, the chorus of raiders ran in from the east and shouted and guarded and subdued. "SUBMIT TO THE BLACK MOON RAIDERS OR DIE!" The guys says, "No, wait, I'm here to help!"
The Camp
Probably one of the most daring raids we attempted was on a noble traveling north from Allanak to Luir's Outpost. We heard from one of our city spies that this retinue was heading out from the outpost with some Byn guarding them. We happened to have a large tent as well as a lot of militia cloaks, so we set up camp along the road south of Luir's and tried our best to make it look like some templar or important city person was traveling and camped on the road. It was probably the only way to safely lure people into the room. All of the others were hiding in the tent and ready to spring when the noble arrived. And it had to be convincing enough that they would just ride into the room rather than send a scout to check the tent.
Well, said party arrived and they must've thought we looked official, because they all just rode on up.
"SUBMIT TO THE BLACK MOON RAIDERS OR DIE!" TENT STYLE!
The Group Shakedown
Probably one of the my favorite solo moments was shaking down an entire group of Byn wandering around outside of Allanak. I saw them moving between Red Storm and Alllanak and decided to saunter up and shake them down. Knowing that most of them were likely newer players led by a Sergeant, I wanted to give them a good chance to enjoy the scene. I casually chatted them up and then went into my normal schpiel about the deserts being dangerous and folks needing protection. I enjoyed the subtle threats that were exchanged between myself and the Sergeant.
He may have been able to get a lucky subdue on me, and I may have died. But Runners, man, they're skittish and slow.
On the other hand, I was QUITE sure that I could turn his head into a porcupine and likely poison a few of his compatriots before they got to the safety of a gate on foot in the desert. The Byn Sergeant did the smart thing and paid me my due, and it helped both the legacy of the raiders as well as the fun of the game, and only cost a few coins. No deaths.
I honestly tried pretty hard NOT to kill people when I played Bushman/Sandman, but some people just didn't want to give in and that was a choice. It was surprising how many people wanted to choose violence over handing me their boots, but that was the point -- I wanted there to be some hard choices out in the desert that had nothing to do with predictable NPCs, overpowered magickers or requiring some kind of Imm-driven RP Event.
On the whole, I feel like I/we were successful in accomplishing the task that I had for myself. It was a fun time and an interesting experience, and I'm glad to hear that while they may not all have been positive, that at least the encounters were memorable. And I didn't have personal grudges toward anyone. I just cared about you.
Because, after all, the world is a dangerous place...and you look like you could use a little protection. ;)
-LoD
https://youtu.be/s6TY1SRABes (https://youtu.be/s6TY1SRABes)
Suh LoD?
I'm thankful that LoD provided some "Here's what you could do!" scenarios for people to try an emulate in the future (that hopefully did not read this thread).
Unfortunately what I got from it was "NPC clan that staff opened up to PCs". Not "Bunch of PCs got together and did something great".
Quote from: LoD on December 14, 2016, 11:30:10 AM
My goal with playing Bushman, and with playing a Black Moon raider at all, was not to have a chance to kill players or to create a sense of danger through wanton murder or meaningless combat, but to provide a competent and intelligent non-magickal threat to the wilds.
[...]
The desert should be dangerous to more than the newer players that don't understand the mechanics of desert movement and its various NPC and automated threats. They should have to contend with intelligent threats from time to time and be forced to sometimes NOT win those encounters. It makes it unpredictable and challenging, and that often makes it fun.
Thank you for sharing. I'm so incredibly jealous. I also liked this quote.
It's funny how when someone who's outside the cool-kids club creates a petty nuisance, everyone is like "OMG fuckin' fuck twinks," but when someone inside the cool-kids club does it, it's like "WHOAAAA, GOOD JOB DUDE A+."
Quote from: Riev on December 14, 2016, 11:51:37 AM
I'm thankful that LoD provided some "Here's what you could do!" scenarios for people to try an emulate in the future (that hopefully did not read this thread).
Unfortunately what I got from it was "NPC clan that staff opened up to PCs". Not "Bunch of PCs got together and did something great".
I would argue that it was exactly a bunch of PC's coming together and doing something great. There was 0 Immortal intervention or assistance other than providing the coded lair for us to use so that we weren't trying to raid out of a city-state. Everything we worked toward and accomplished was done through player motivation, effort and execution. It went from a generic NPC threat represented by nothing more than a handful of NPC's on the road to a living, breathing entity that was interacting with the game world around it in a completely organic way.
As others have mentioned, without a base of operations that is outside the easy grasp of the powers-that-be, it is very difficult to maintain an entity that makes enemies of so many people. And while it began as an NPC clan without any PCs that were opened to players, I don't feel it diminishes at all what was accomplished and the experiences that were generated from the play of both those players and of all of those with whom we interacted. We recruited at least two players that did not start in the clan and probably more, but that was difficult because we had to trust those players not to divulge IC information that was fairly crucial to the clan's survival.
In the end, we had nothing in way of coded advantages or perks other than what most city-based players take for granted - a sanctuary.
-LoD
Quote from: Synthesis on December 14, 2016, 12:15:59 PM
It's funny how when someone who's outside the cool-kids club creates a petty nuisance, everyone is like "OMG fuckin' fuck twinks," but when someone inside the cool-kids club does it, it's like "WHOAAAA, GOOD JOB DUDE A+."
Just a few characters before Bushman, I was told by Nessalin that I had one more chance to play a character before he banned me from the game for being a twink. I chose the merchant class, because it had the least amount of skills to abuse (and no crafting system at the time). I'm not sure the "cool-kids club" is something to which I've belonged. I had my moments of bad RP and bad decisions and stupidity, the same as many of us.
There's definitely a fine line when you chose the role of antagonist, and it often invites criticism and accusations of twinkery because it's difficult to pose a credible threat without any power to make good on it, and it's difficult to develop that power without using your skills frequently, and it's sometimes difficult to use your skills frequently without some people thinking of you as a twink.
Some people tend to find better ways to manage that than others, I'd wager. I'd also argue that a very common trap people fall into is when they have a vision for a character that has a certain level of coded power as the character they
want to play. That isn't the role that they begin playing, however, and the race to close that gap is sometimes what tends to encourage people to making decisions or exhibiti behavior that gets them labeled poorly. I've certainly been guilty of that in my past.
-LoD
Quote from: LoD on December 14, 2016, 12:25:47 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on December 14, 2016, 12:15:59 PM
It's funny how when someone who's outside the cool-kids club creates a petty nuisance, everyone is like "OMG fuckin' fuck twinks," but when someone inside the cool-kids club does it, it's like "WHOAAAA, GOOD JOB DUDE A+."
Just a few characters before Bushman, I was told by Nessalin that I had one more chance to play a character before he banned me from the game for being a twink. I chose the merchant class, because it had the least amount of skills to abuse (and no crafting system at the time). I'm not sure the "cool-kids club" is something to which I've belonged. I had my moments of bad RP and bad decisions and stupidity, the same as many of us.
There's definitely a fine line when you chose the role of antagonist, and it often invites criticism and accusations of twinkery because it's difficult to pose a credible threat without any power to make good on it, and it's difficult to develop that power without using your skills frequently, and it's sometimes difficult to use your skills frequently without some people thinking of you as a twink.
Some people tend to find better ways to manage that than others, I'd wager. I'd also argue that a very common trap people fall into is when they have a vision for a character that has a certain level of coded power as the character they want to play. That isn't the role that they begin playing, however, and the race to close that gap is sometimes what tends to encourage people to making decisions or exhibiti behavior that gets them labeled poorly. I've certainly been guilty of that in my past.
-LoD
Don't worry, it wasn't an attack on you, and it wasn't an observation based on your status as a player at the time.
It's an observation about the hindsight view from other players (now that you've got GDB RP guru cred) that what you were doing was "so COOL and INTERESTING," when it fundamentally was no different than what every other twink in the game was doing at the time.
It's so funny how tribalistic thought-processes work. "It's okay when
he does it, because he's one of us, and he really
gets it." The reality of the situation is that it doesn't matter how well a mundane raider PC emotes or stays in character...everyone is going to be butt-hurt about it ICly and OOCly. The reality of the situation is that the Blackmoon weren't cool or interesting to anyone but themselves. For everyone else, they were just a bunch of deplorable twinks, even though I guarantee you every other nuisance twink player out there was like, "yeah, I'm gonna rustle some jimmies and make the desert dangerous," not "lol pk powerlord i'mma dominate."
Basically the same goals. The same methods used to git gud.
Wildly different hindsight views, based on current perceived RP in-crowdness. Y'all can either a) make excuses or b) acknowledge your biases.
Quote from: Synthesis on December 14, 2016, 01:05:02 PM
Quote from: LoD on December 14, 2016, 12:25:47 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on December 14, 2016, 12:15:59 PM
It's funny how when someone who's outside the cool-kids club creates a petty nuisance, everyone is like "OMG fuckin' fuck twinks," but when someone inside the cool-kids club does it, it's like "WHOAAAA, GOOD JOB DUDE A+."
Just a few characters before Bushman, I was told by Nessalin that I had one more chance to play a character before he banned me from the game for being a twink. I chose the merchant class, because it had the least amount of skills to abuse (and no crafting system at the time). I'm not sure the "cool-kids club" is something to which I've belonged. I had my moments of bad RP and bad decisions and stupidity, the same as many of us.
There's definitely a fine line when you chose the role of antagonist, and it often invites criticism and accusations of twinkery because it's difficult to pose a credible threat without any power to make good on it, and it's difficult to develop that power without using your skills frequently, and it's sometimes difficult to use your skills frequently without some people thinking of you as a twink.
Some people tend to find better ways to manage that than others, I'd wager. I'd also argue that a very common trap people fall into is when they have a vision for a character that has a certain level of coded power as the character they want to play. That isn't the role that they begin playing, however, and the race to close that gap is sometimes what tends to encourage people to making decisions or exhibiti behavior that gets them labeled poorly. I've certainly been guilty of that in my past.
-LoD
Don't worry, it wasn't an attack on you, and it wasn't an observation based on your status as a player at the time.
Who are you talking about and how on earth is this relevant to the thread and its topic, Synthesis? I'm so tired of negative derails. If you don't have anything to contribute to the content of the thread, don't -- it's against the forum rules; a minori if you don't have anything positive to contribute, but that's not a forum rule, it's just common sense.
Start your own thread if you'd like to talk about in-crowds and twinks.
I agree with Code Guru.
I also appreciate RP Gurus perspective. I think it nicely answers the OP.
Also Code Gurus observations I think are accurate. I don't think raiders have the point of view of destructive ooc think gonna killm all. I think they often wish to present an atagonistic presence with RP first, but will always be labeled a twink if they interact with pretty much anyone in any antagonistic fashion.
Having a clan devoted to this leads to the clan being mislabeled as a spawning ground for twinky meta gamers. While I don't think that way, apparently many others do. This also stems from the "loss of trust in fellow players" that I find so bummerific.
Quote from: Synthesis on December 14, 2016, 01:05:02 PM
It's an observation about the hindsight view from other players (now that you've got GDB RP guru cred) that what you were doing was "so COOL and INTERESTING," when it fundamentally was no different than what every other twink in the game was doing at the time.
But [Synthesis] looked back, and [he] became a pillar of salt. - Genesis 19:26
I think Synth's comments are fair enough, as the thread title does include comments. Blackmon is an example relevant to several current threads, and seems to tie them together nicely.
QuoteWho are you talking about and how on earth is this relevant to the thread and its topic, Synthesis? I'm so tired of negative derails. If you don't have anything to contribute to the content of the thread, don't -- it's against the forum rules; a minori if you don't have anything positive to contribute, but that's not a forum rule, it's just common sense.
Start your own thread if you'd like to talk about in-crowds and twinks.
Justified or not, it was his
REFLECTION on black-moon. He's
COMMENTING that he felt it was more acceptable for them to be doing things other players couldn't.
If you're not going to try and counter argue the point he was trying to make, then you should probably leave the moderation to the moderators, since we're more guilty of derailing than anyone.
Back on topic: these stories are awesome and I really wish we had some active raiding clan going at the moment.
Quote from: nauta on December 14, 2016, 01:09:02 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on December 14, 2016, 01:05:02 PM
Quote from: LoD on December 14, 2016, 12:25:47 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on December 14, 2016, 12:15:59 PM
It's funny how when someone who's outside the cool-kids club creates a petty nuisance, everyone is like "OMG fuckin' fuck twinks," but when someone inside the cool-kids club does it, it's like "WHOAAAA, GOOD JOB DUDE A+."
Just a few characters before Bushman, I was told by Nessalin that I had one more chance to play a character before he banned me from the game for being a twink. I chose the merchant class, because it had the least amount of skills to abuse (and no crafting system at the time). I'm not sure the "cool-kids club" is something to which I've belonged. I had my moments of bad RP and bad decisions and stupidity, the same as many of us.
There's definitely a fine line when you chose the role of antagonist, and it often invites criticism and accusations of twinkery because it's difficult to pose a credible threat without any power to make good on it, and it's difficult to develop that power without using your skills frequently, and it's sometimes difficult to use your skills frequently without some people thinking of you as a twink.
Some people tend to find better ways to manage that than others, I'd wager. I'd also argue that a very common trap people fall into is when they have a vision for a character that has a certain level of coded power as the character they want to play. That isn't the role that they begin playing, however, and the race to close that gap is sometimes what tends to encourage people to making decisions or exhibiti behavior that gets them labeled poorly. I've certainly been guilty of that in my past.
-LoD
Don't worry, it wasn't an attack on you, and it wasn't an observation based on your status as a player at the time.
Who are you talking about and how on earth is this relevant to the thread and its topic, Synthesis? I'm so tired of negative derails. If you don't have anything to contribute to the content of the thread, don't -- it's against the forum rules; a minori if you don't have anything positive to contribute, but that's not a forum rule, it's just common sense.
Start your own thread if you'd like to talk about in-crowds and twinks.
My comments aren't a derail. I'm telling you: it doesn't matter how well-played mundane, non-staff-supported raiders may be, the contemporary consensus is going to be "omg twinks," except among the players who are playing raiders together, where it will be backslaps and high-fives. What people are doing with LoD in particular is just a symptom of a larger disease: i.e. rosy hindsight. That, mixed with GDB cred and in-group adulation. If I posted stories about all the times I raided people, it would be dismissed as twinkery and trying to "win Armageddon," regardless of how well I attempted to articulate my motives, because I'm not part of an in-crowd that gets the benefit of the doubt. LoD does it, and the immediate response is "so cool." Of course, pointing this out is just outrageous trolling, obviously (cf: making excuses). HOW DARE I QUESTION YOUR COMPLETE OBJECTIVENESS AND NEUTRAL LOGICAL PROCESSING.
The reason that the staff have largely done away with or stopped supporting antagonistic groups like this is that NOBODY REALLY LIKES IT (except the players who are doing it), despite occasional protestations to the contrary. It generates a ton of OOC butt-hurt, and when players get butt-hurt OOC, they start doing shitty things IC to try to avoid that butt-hurt. Nobody says, "Wow, that arrow to the neck was SUPER SCARY, this desert wasteland shit is SO REAL." They say, "Man, fuck this fucking guy...how many stilt lizards did he have to lob stones at to get his archery skill that high? I'll show him...my next PC is gonna be a d-elf ranger and I'm going to intentionally pick a fight with him (once
my archery is maxed by turaal-stoning) and get all my clannies in on it."
We're all twinks at some point or another.
Was the pike-using dwarf named Abuzor (who single-handidly killed one iteration of the Red Fangs) a Blackmoon? I've heard an account of his exploit (no pun intended) and it's worth a chuckle.
That is a super negative view of the game. I get how you think it's the "realistic view", but I think it's just negative.
Hey, thanks for doing that Bushman (coming back to talk to us about it). Everyone will always remember you for Sujaal, but I will always remember Bushman. The fear was real. The respect in the clan was real.
Ya'll need to stop bagging on Synthesis. He's not saying absolutely terrible, even if it is a kind of sadface way to view actions in the game, but!
QuoteThe reason that the staff have largely done away with or stopped supporting antagonistic groups like this is that NOBODY REALLY LIKES IT (except the players who are doing it), despite occasional protestations to the contrary. It generates a ton of OOC butt-hurt, and when players get butt-hurt OOC, they start doing shitty things IC to try to avoid that butt-hurt. Nobody says, "Wow, that arrow to the neck was SUPER SCARY, this desert wasteland shit is SO REAL." They say, "Man, fuck this fucking guy...how many stilt lizards did he have to lob stones at to get his archery skill that high? I'll show him...my next PC is gonna be a d-elf ranger and I'm going to intentionally pick a fight with him (once my archery is maxed by turaal-stoning) and get all my clannies in on it."
While I view the last part as worst-case scenario that only happened based on the player, not by the results of the raiding in the game (i.e. BLAME THE SYSTEM, PRISON GUARD, NOT THE PRISONER)...the rest of it is true. Which is what this thread is about. All over now, we're talking about needing antagonists, but also not wanting the Butt-hurt. They kind of go hand in hand. I've tried to discuss this in a few threads, but I think Synthesis just broke it down right here, without really meaning to. Antagonists will kill people in this game. That is not because there's not a viable recourse. That is not because they're twinky. That is not for any reason other than that's what an antagonist to your cause in Zalanthas -does-.
Luckily, we have threads like this that remind us that it's needed despite other threads derailing often into people being too eager to kill. Too eager to kill is based on character, not player, and that makes it conform into the roleplaying game nicely. Hopefully, Staff will work to support antagonism in some ways (they already are in other ways), because the game needs it. And the butt-hurt. Perma-death means nothing if it's viewed as this scary thing to avoid bringing about. It should be chasing you like a beast in the game that wants to eat you.
I still think player physical conflict is the lowest form of interaction, and agree with Synthesis to an extent that it's really only fun for whoever gets to be top dog. Some of the Blackmoon exploits, like this,
QuoteNotably, LoD ran a very famous Blackmoon leader named Bushman. He was the first 'lone archer' scenario I ever encountered in the game, and I was both an ally and enemy with different characters. It was what led me to coming up with an idea of how to react to it suitable. Bushman routinely hassled large groups until he was notorious enough that he could demand tribute from Byn units outside the gate, and they'd pay it.
Sound annoying as fuck.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on December 14, 2016, 01:51:55 PM
We're all twinks at some point or another.
Was the pike-using dwarf named Abuzor (who single-handidly killed one iteration of the Red Fangs) a Blackmoon? I've heard an account of his exploit (no pun intended) and it's worth a chuckle.
I'm pretty sure Abuzer Khadayif (or whatever it was) was far long after the Blackmoon. I also don't think he did much raiding.
Though I'm still new to SOME vets, I do remember on at least one character being told to strip down as they inspected me, and until now I had no idea why.
Oh how far we've fallen, when things like 'physical confrontation is bad' makes its way even into GDB threads about raiding clans.
Quote from: LoD on December 14, 2016, 11:30:10 AM
The Group Shakedown
Probably one of the my favorite solo moments was shaking down an entire group of Byn wandering around outside of Allanak. I saw them moving between Red Storm and Alllanak and decided to saunter up and shake them down. Knowing that most of them were likely newer players led by a Sergeant, I wanted to give them a good chance to enjoy the scene. I casually chatted them up and then went into my normal schpiel about the deserts being dangerous and folks needing protection. I enjoyed the subtle threats that were exchanged between myself and the Sergeant.
He may have been able to get a lucky subdue on me, and I may have died. But Runners, man, they're skittish and slow.
On the other hand, I was QUITE sure that I could turn his head into a porcupine and likely poison a few of his compatriots before they got to the safety of a gate on foot in the desert. The Byn Sergeant did the smart thing and paid me my due, and it helped both the legacy of the raiders as well as the fun of the game, and only cost a few coins. No deaths.
I was there for that with one of my first PCs! Was a FANTASTIC encounter and still to this day I'm wary traveling around area area 'cause I'm sure Sandman is gonna pop out. :-D
Quote from: Armaddict on December 14, 2016, 02:34:59 PM
Oh how far we've fallen, when things like 'physical confrontation is bad' makes its way even into GDB threads about raiding clans.
I never said it was bad, I just said it's the lowest form of interaction. Your example really does LoD a disservice by implying that he just shot at a bunch of Bynners until they paid him. His first-hand account is a much better example of raiding.
There's a big difference between raiding via threat of violence, and raiding by "an arrow flies in from the west and strikes you in the neck."
...mine isn't an in-depth elaboration on my scene, it's a description of the effect of the antagonist. I do him no disservice at all by remembering that he was a scary raider who served as a strong antagonist to entire clans and modified behavior of people so that the wilds was a scary place.
The 'lowest form of interaction' is meant to imply what, exactly, in terms of this thread? I'm assuming it means 'Don't do this unless you do this, this, and this first', and essentially trying to discourage people from using it, with a blanket context rather than one with qualifiers. If I'm wrong, perhaps I just misread you.
I think he means it in the way that "blah blah blah is the lowest form of humor" as in "Yeah its funny and it works, but there are better ways to do it".
So, if I read right, he's saying that physically attacking another person gets across the 'interaction' bit of the game, but there are better ways to get interaction than by coded combat.
Quote from: Riev on December 14, 2016, 02:53:53 PM
I think he means it in the way that "blah blah blah is the lowest form of humor" as in "Yeah its funny and it works, but there are better ways to do it".
So, if I read right, he's saying that physically attacking another person gets across the 'interaction' bit of the game, but there are better ways to get interaction than by coded combat.
Unless the expressed purpose of the role within the game is startlingly realized best through actual combat. I'm not afraid of someone who comes up and emotes a lot at me unless they've displayed/endlessly project the willingness to actually follow through. This is what LoD talked about...there were ways to avoid it. There was roleplay to be had. A lot of the time, people just ran away anyway...and a lot of the time, people outright refused to do anything but the physical confrontation.
It's not the lowest form, in the scenario provided. In this case, actually, I'd argue that avoiding it is more of a disservice to the role than moving things along towards it unless diverted by actions.
I definitely think encouraging people to solely use their skills to raid is lousy advice and leads to flat characters, reduced interaction and twinkish gameplay. And that's not just for the raided. Raiders too are probably going to get steamrolled by the Powers that Be. The only people who are going to feel good are the people who successfully ganked last.
As for why Blackmoon was considered a successful source of conflict, I think it has to do with their relative power, where their Conflict took place, and the fact that they had a safe haven.
A lot (or all) of the positive Blackmoon stories seem to involve quasi-equal forces meeting on a level playing field with neither party having an absolute advantage over the other. The lack of certainty and perceived equivalence of power is what ensures players don't immediately resort to '>kill dude'. Mexican standoffs ratcheting up in to melees are good. Being subdued by a sneaking halfgiant and literally shaken down is less so, though potentially amusing. Being ganked immediately is lame.
As for the base, I don't think there's a lot of potential for conflict-exploring interaction where one party has a massive advantage over the other, and a secure location is definitely such an advantage. Coded clans these days all have various compounds where they're reasonably safe, while options for non-clan groups are much more limited. If coded clans had more reason to actually compete, and more neutral ground to do it, maybe we'd see more conflict. I don't think giving every AIM-group-turned-family-role a Mesa Fortress is the solution, but if a serious raiding clan is going to happen again then they're going to need a safe haven somewhere. The conflict can then happen on the sands where the only advantages are those brought by the PCs.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on December 14, 2016, 02:28:34 PM
I still think player physical conflict is the lowest form of interaction, and agree with Synthesis to an extent that it's really only fun for whoever gets to be top dog. Some of the Blackmoon exploits, like this,
QuoteNotably, LoD ran a very famous Blackmoon leader named Bushman. He was the first 'lone archer' scenario I ever encountered in the game, and I was both an ally and enemy with different characters. It was what led me to coming up with an idea of how to react to it suitable. Bushman routinely hassled large groups until he was notorious enough that he could demand tribute from Byn units outside the gate, and they'd pay it.
Sound annoying as fuck.
Physical violence is a very real part of the game and the permadeath system lends the necessary weight to solicit the right response. I've never played ANY game that got my blood pumping or adrenaline up as when I thought I was going to lose my character of a RL year to some situation. I don't want those situations to occur all of the time, and I agree that simply watching code scroll on the screen as someone whacks you with a sword isn't exactly the pinnacle of RP, but they still have a firm place within the game world for us.
And indiscriminate, wanton murder was never what I wanted. I didn't routinely hunt people for no good reason. I didn't force violence on to people that didn't either force my hand (by attacking) or first refuse the
higher forms of interaction (by spam fleeing). I simply tossed an obstacle in their way and gave them a choice as to how to solve it. The sad fact is that most people who died by my hand chose that death over the pair of boots they were wearing.
The world is dangerous and it visits consequences on us when we make poor decisions. Those decisions may be being in the wrong part of town, angering the wrong person, traveling in the wrong weather, wearing the wrong clothes, saying the wrong thing or, sometimes, just being in the wrong tavern when an angry Templar shows up. One of the reasons why Armageddon is interesting is because you have one life with your character and, as you grow attached to that character, you take actions to preserve it. That attachment allows for things like fear and dread and surprise and shock and worry to all be very real emotional reactions to the encounters we face in-game.
And while I almost always tried to give everyone an RP out when interacting, the manifestation of danger in the wilds (or even in the cities) in the form of antagonists is some of the more memorable and interesting game play and reminds us that our characters are vulnerable, fragile and temporary things. And the threat of loss is part and partial to the entire experience people tend to come back and revisit.
As evidenced here, the "top dogs" are not the only people that benefit from their role, or that enjoy the experience. Many people enjoyed their experiences or enjoyed the game of survival at that level. The fact that it's not everyone's cup of tea just goes to show we're all human and here for different reasons.
And it probably was annoying as fuck to some people. Especially the ones that avoided RP, spam fled and ate arrows in the neck.
And that's OK.
-LoD
Right on The moolah, LoD.
QuoteThe world is dangerous and it visits consequences on us when we make poor decisions. Those decisions may be being in the wrong part of town, angering the wrong person, traveling in the wrong weather, wearing the wrong clothes, saying the wrong thing or, sometimes, just being in the wrong tavern when an angry Templar shows up. One of the reasons why Armageddon is interesting is because you have one life with your character and, as you grow attached to that character, you take actions to preserve it. That attachment allows for things like fear and dread and surprise and shock and worry to all be very real emotional reactions to the encounters we face in-game.
And it should be noted that a lot of the time, the 'downer' side of things is 'I was just doing my job' or 'I can't not do what a templar told me to do!' and so on, moving to where essentially people feel punished for making their decisions because their decisions were sensible ones. I'm not saying those are unsensible decisions. But those very real emotional reactions are what often push the betrayals in game. The murders. The corruptions. The fact that your character is looking ahead and realizing their loyalty might get them caught up in a fight they don't think they'll win is a prime motivator for these behaviors. The leader who you adore but keeps deciding to fuck with that group leads to that unforeseen betrayal that takes them out of command.
The accuracy of the term 'Shit happens' in Arm is one of the most amazing things about it. In my open and always-candid opinion, of course.
I'd like to point out that the Bushman spam fled quite a few times, too, when it was necessary...so calling people out for spam fleeing is...just a touch hypocritical.
Quote from: Synthesis on December 14, 2016, 07:26:30 PM
I'd like to point out that the Bushman spam fled quite a few times, too, when it was necessary...so calling people out for spam fleeing is...just a touch hypocritical.
I don't think it's calling anyone out so much as stating that when you do nothing but run away you push things over into all out pursuit mode, which I'm sure happened in his case as well. Regardless, this is still be a completely irrelevant point on the actual discussion at hand and be more centered on you deciding you don't like that we like talking about his raider and you don't.
The entire purpose of all this was to talk about a past raiding clan, and a past leader talked about his experiences in it with some of his instances, and some of the things he used to do to -try- and mix things up in one of the widely-admitted harder roles to balance things out in. I think you're trying a little hard to try and bring the whole thing down for whatever reason. All that you're coming across as though, at least to me, is someone trying very hard to make any portion of positivity and good advice found in the thread be lost. Again, for whatever reason.
LoD, do you still play? If you do, any opinions on raiding and its place in the game today?
Quote from: Armaddict on December 14, 2016, 08:12:15 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on December 14, 2016, 07:26:30 PM
I'd like to point out that the Bushman spam fled quite a few times, too, when it was necessary...so calling people out for spam fleeing is...just a touch hypocritical.
I don't think it's calling anyone out so much as stating that when you do nothing but run away you push things over into all out pursuit mode, which I'm sure happened in his case as well. Regardless, this is still be a completely irrelevant point on the actual discussion at hand and be more centered on you deciding you don't like that we like talking about his raider and you don't.
The entire purpose of all this was to talk about a past raiding clan, and a past leader talked about his experiences in it with some of his instances, and some of the things he used to do to -try- and mix things up in one of the widely-admitted harder roles to balance things out in. I think you're trying a little hard to try and bring the whole thing down for whatever reason. All that you're coming across as though, at least to me, is someone trying very hard to make any portion of positivity and good advice found in the thread be lost. Again, for whatever reason.
I comment on points as they're raised. That's how these threads ALWAYS work. The fact of the matter is that LoD is implying that everyone should be held to a standard that he himself never stuck to in the first place. When he knew he was about to get pwned, he ran like a little girl back to the Blackmoon Sekrit Ops Base just like everyone else ran back to the city gates. I'm not blaming him for doing that. It's acceptable play. However, acting like he's a) superior to all that while b) lamenting that everyone -else- does it is disingenuous, at best.
Trying to call me out for doing what literally everyone does (address asides that are only tangentionally related to the primary point of the thread, that is) is...well...motivated by the fact that you just don't like what I'm saying, not that you don't like the way I'm saying it or the context I'm saying it in.
Back to the point...I already addressed it. Nobody -really- wants a raiding clan run by PCs. They might think they want it, but when the chickens come home to roost and they're the ones getting pwned, they're gonna cry about it to anyone who'll listen. It's the way it's always been. Nothing, fundamentally, has changed. Nobody wants to invest 6 months in a PC just to be WTFPWNed by some scrublord who spent 4 weeks grinding archery on stilt lizards, or by folks who spent several years browsing the shadowboards and know enough tricks to powergame the shit out of a 3-way warrior/Rukkian-ranger/protector-assassin/outdoorsman gangbang, not to mention coordinating the assault in-depth on some sort of instant messenger.
But I get it, dude. You think you'd get a chance to be king of that shit-heap, because you're a good player and you're good with the code, as well. Hell, I even think you'd do a great job of it. I believe in you. HOWEVER--everyone you raid will think you're a fucking piece of shit scumbag twink motherfucker, and cry about it, and generate all sorts of pointless angst about the game and disgruntlement among the rest of the playerbase, all so you can be king of a shit-heap. I just don't think it's worth it, even if you're the most radical dude who ever planted a flag in shit.
Calm... Civil... Please people. Opinions are good, they give ideas to everyone. When you go and attack others for their opinions, that's bad.
Yeah. I'm totally trying to run the game with my PC's, man. You figured it out. ::)
What I actually called you out on was that you seemed much more intent with your previous two or three posts on discrediting LoD rather than addressing anything about his position or what he was saying.
And I want a raiding clan. I want to be killed by arrows to the neck. I want to be paranoid about whether travelers are aggressive or not. There, your assertion that no one wants it is now moot.
I'll finish with a quote from the Code Guru.
QuoteHOW DARE I QUESTION YOUR COMPLETE OBJECTIVENESS AND NEUTRAL LOGICAL PROCESSING.
Well done, my apprentice. Well done.
I get what the Code Guru is saying, and though he projects a layer of vehemence in his opinion, I think we quickly praise the Grandaddy RPers of Legend, and disparage the 'common fucked up twink assholes', but really, they are one and the same. They (in this case) are Raiders. The difference between a well-played Raider and a poorly-played Raider is completely subjective. And, more often than not, the 'poorly-played Raider' is reacting to a 'poorly played Raider victim'. That is to say, the people that spam flee away and are caught with an arrow in the neck may become the next Jingo. (Sorry Jingo).
Just as well, people may be doing a spiffy fantastic job RPing actually. But rarely is that stuff seen except by people around them who are buds, and Staff who are watching them. The Assassin that creeps up and nails your ass with a backstab and some poison may have been LoD and doing a fantastic job with hemotes and thinks and all the feels...But you the receiver of doom only saw a mantis head or a lot of quick combat and *beep*.
This is where the "BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT" for your fellow player comes in. If you think someone is being a dinky twinky, put in a player complaint. Staff will look into it, and act on it if they agree that a dinky twinky is amiss.
But harboring all this negativity about our fellow player (from Code Guru to RP Guru) is the root of the problem. I don't think we're going to have more conflict without more trust. Weird as that sounds.
Quote from: Armaddict on December 15, 2016, 12:49:27 AM
And I want a raiding clan. I want to be killed by arrows to the neck. I want to be paranoid about whether travelers are aggressive or not. There, your assertion that no one wants it is now moot.
stop whining then about how you can't make a living as a hunter of beasts and become a hunter of players. be the change
Quote from: BadSkeelz on December 15, 2016, 02:19:56 AM
stop whining then about how you can't make a living as a hunter of beasts and become a hunter of players. be the change
...I hope that's not at me.
Can't...make a living...as a hunter of beasts? Whut?
I know you don't like the spoil change because it's put a crimp on hunting and long-term meat management.
Seriously. Go arrow some dudes.
Edit:
Since GDB is srs business and I can't really tell if you're jabbing at me or not, I'll just say...
Okay! *shoots arrers!*
I wanna add that I don't think spam fleeing is always bad RP. I just think it's boring RP and I don't like to do it.
Verbally abuse me plz
Quote from: BadSkeelz on December 14, 2016, 08:13:24 PM
LoD, do you still play? If you do, any opinions on raiding and its place in the game today?
I do currently have a character languishing away somewhere in the world, but they haven't seen daylight for many months and I haven't seriously played for several years; mostly due to a lack of time to commit, because I tend to need to invest a lot of time or the game to reward me with the experience I am after.
As for raiding and its current place in the game -- I always feel that raiding should always have a place in the game. This is Zalanthas, after all, is it not? A gortok eat gortok world where the strong take from the weak and survival of the fittest, smartest and luckiest abounds.
And while I haven't been playing, here is what I am assuming are the primary issues based on the few posts I've read:
SanctuaryEveryone, including and especially a raiding clan, needs a sanctuary; a place that has (at a minimum) a quit safe room, general safety from roaming NPC threats, some system of laws stopping (most) arbitrary murder, favorable (or at least neutral) ownership protecting your general right to be there, affordable food and affordable water. Most sponsored clans will have these made available to them. It may simply be one enterable object that has a few NPC guards all linked to the same clan, but it's enough.
City-states make for poor sanctuaries when you raid its citizens. It's only a matter of time before someone you've raided (and perhaps even killed) "recognizes" you with another character and all of a sudden there's a city-wide manhunt with a crim flag slapped on your back. When there were two city-states, either of them could have created a great base of operations for a PC-led raiding group that was focused on foreign targets. Unfortunately, now the burden of raiding likely falls upon the few pocket clans (i.e. mostly desert elves) that have the luxury of a remote sanctuary far from the grasp of the templarate or aspiring do-gooders riding around wanting to do good.
Certain villages or other locations may be viable, but they are challenging and the remote nature can sometimes make it difficult to find the interaction they would also want. Contrary to popular opinion, the Blackmoon did not just spend their time running around killing people. We spent a lot of time RPing at home in their sanctuary being free men and acting as free men and women do. There were children to feed, non-combatants to support and goals that we were working toward. In fact, part of the reason why the Blackmoon got involved in the Tuluki-Allanaki War was because its leader wanted a chance to see his people belong to something again -- it was on its way toward NOT being a raiding clan, though that didn't quite pan out.
Raiding GoalsWhile one of my personal player goals was to create a mundane threat for the world to react to, my character had goals of his own. And, I believe, the raiding group needs to have goals, and those goals have to include things
other than hurting/killing people. Raiding people is fine, especially if it's to raise money for something or to create a reputation or to apply pressure to some particular group, but the clan/group
cannot only be about random murder out in the sands. Those kinds of clans have always failed in the past. Even character concepts that I've had which involved killing players were strongly discouraged by the Immortal staff, simply because the concept included and encouraged PC death.
PC murder should always be a potential byproduct and
never the primary focus of any group. PC deaths can make for interesting stories, but we are here to interact after all, and our goals should support that. Blackmoon would peacefully let anyone go that complied with our requests. It made good business sense! Let them live to be raided another day. I suspect far too many PC-driven clans, however, begin to treat PC murder as a necessary part of their operations and feel that antagonists have to manifest in the form of death-dealers. Again, that sometimes happens, but it certainly isn't (and never should be) a requirement.
A PC-led raiding clan would need to have some clearly defined goals it's looking to achieve, and it would be smart to alert the Immortal staff as to what those goals are so they understand better your motivations if and when things go south on an encounter. Managing expectations is one of the most important lessons you can learn in life, and it's no different here.
Clan Goody Two-ShoesFrom time to time, the playerbase reaches this strange homogenized state where everyone in power positions seems to have achieved an equilibrium devoid of political, martial or personal ambitions in direct opposition to their peers. It sound like the game might have fallen into one of those (it happens sometimes) right now. This breeds a "don't rock the boat" mentality across the group that quickly serves to squash anything it perceives as a general threat.
Tag isn't fun when it's 10 on 1. Tag is fun when it's 10 on 10.
The same can be said of Aramageddon. When peace is stretched across the general playerbase and there are not direct sources of conflict, characters that even smell a little bit like "evil" are quickly hunted, captured and killed on sight by the collective efforts of people that might normally be enemies or, at best, neutral.
This is a difficult, but not impossible, problem to overcome. It may require some manipulation, however, and the creation of some events that begin to put sides at odds with one another. That can be a hard thing to achieve, but it isn't impossible. Perhaps the raiding clan, once established, could reach out to particular groups to try and arrange a purchase of their services toward hindering another House or a competing entity. Perhaps the raiding group could be hired to achieve other tasks on the behalf of entities in the city-state, whom would
like to do "bad things", but is swayed by clan Goody Two Shoes not to do so.
RecruitmentTrust me, I know a thing or two about recruitment.
And the truth is that it is HARD to find and keep good people. The Byn has a sanctuary, safe sparring area, decent leadership and constructive goals, and even its turnover rate has always been high. And that's because Zalanthas is an angry angry gortok.
It's hard enough to recruit and manage a clan of PC's when you have everything working in your favor, much less when you have to be careful about whom you recruit, always on the lookout for spies, divulging trade secrets and inside information to players whom may turn around and become templars or soldiers or raider-hunters with their next characters. You have to keep people involved and on task. You constantly lose people to stupid things like that crazy random stat'd scrab that gets two lucky hits on someone that has been killing them for 10 IC years. Most people in the city want to kill you. Most things in the desert want to kill you and then eat you. Or maybe eat you and then kill you.
And for a raiding group, whose entire existence is centered around smacking the angry gortok in the face with a stick, it's even more challenging.
That's why operation out of the sanctuary of a competing organization (i.e. Tuluk vs. Allanak) would have made for an easier setup.
Solutions?If I were to try and create a raiding group in this type of environment, I'd need to come up with a good idea for what my end goal was. What is my monetary goal? What could I be striving to achieve or create? Bringing wealth to a small village that offers you Sanctuary and, via that wealth, begins to grow or improve or what not might be interesting. I might have to look at existing structures/places and see if anything would lend itself well to that idea.
Could you shrink the idea a bit and create a 'rinth-based raiding group? The Immortal staff are unlikely to want to support clans that serve to segregate the playerbase (based on their removal of Tuluk as a play option), so thinking of creative solutions in the microcosm of Allanak might be interesting. Striking some kind of agreement with the templarate for a cut of the profits and a guarantee that you will refrain from preying upon certain targets and be willing to assist them in certain endeavors might be possible.
Perhaps the goal of the raiding party is to send a message or to exact change within the city-state. It's existence is aimed at making some group acquiesce to something you want to see, such as slaves freed from this organization, a gigantic bust of your face built on Meleth's Circle, the release of a prisoner or some other story-driven idea. That would at least give you an obvious cause, goals, reasons to interact with the other players and a message to spread to its populace.
As in all things Zalanthas, your raiding group is going to be temporary. Why not tell a story with it while playing the role of antagonist. Nothing says you have to STAY the antagonist once your goals have been achieved. Be creative and make suggestions. You never know what might be possible with the right amount of effort.
There are a lot of possibilities, but I'd have to explore and acquaint myself with the game world to know where those opportunities might be.
-LoD
I suppose at hand, then, is the question of whether Blackmoon, as a clan, would have worked in today's climate where there are no sanctuary areas, or a backstory BEFORE it was opened to PCs.
Desert elves have long been -able- to be the raiders of the wastes, but even in the case of the Soh, there isn't much -reason- to be. Territorial by nature, most people don't give a crap about things in their lands so the demand is low. A Soh raiding people outside 'Nakki gates is just foolish and suicidal behavior.
Though I'm kinda down for a raiding group out of Cenyr, or the Mul Outpost if there were just a couple more rooms.
Quote from: Riev on December 15, 2016, 11:16:45 AM
Though I'm kinda down for a raiding group out of Cenyr, or the Mul Outpost if there were just a couple more rooms.
One added advantage to these two locations in particular is that they could draw together the three main divisions in the playerbase: delves and the rest (Mul Outpost); Kurac and the rest (Cenyr). (Seik/Arabet sort of fall into both delf and Kurac, I guess.) You could see a raider clan in the Mul Outpost raiding the Vrun but having to wheel and deal with the delves, for instance, or one on the main trade route (Cenyr-ish) having to wheel and deal with Kurac.
If only there were a spot that could draw all three together.
ETA: The more I think on it, the Mul Outpost seems perfect. Kurac PCs already have some rationale to interact with Allanak these days, but the delves (esp. the poor Soh) do not. It'd create some cool dynamics -- perhaps the Soh and the bandits team up for a bit, or perhaps they are at war -- and, by way of the bandits, the Soh could interface with Allanak plots a little easier than they can nowadays.
A raiding / criminal clan in Allanak will be a trail of tears if the crime code isn't changed from its binary, half-giant foundation. Having been in the Guild and Haruch Kemad and so on, it's very tricky. Possible, doable, but tricky, considering you are almost literally surrounded by multiple half-giant soldiers at every turn. When both assailant and victim are quite aware of the limitations/consequences of the crime code, they use it to their advantage in both ways, but yeah. It's sort of a sticky pickle.
IMHO, having a small base (3 NPCs, one quit/safe room, one save room with a limit to amount), the fabricated 'first group' of PCs come into game, and call it a day, would be my favored route. They will have Staff oversight, and they will have to recruit IG from there.
To me this gives the stimulated 'jump' that an area of the game world might need. Say, the Red Desert. Or the Tablelands. The Staff sort of coordinate with the 'leader' PC, spitball ideas, and settle on a concept/location for the 'antagonist group'.
If/When the group is wiped out, it's gone. Kaput. But other groups might form/be in existence and get de-virtualized.
I agree that tag isn't fun when it's 10 v 1. And it may take a bit of fabrication to even the odds.
I mean, the 'rinth isn't even really a safe spot for raiders. Competition from other 'rinthi groups aside, the Arm and even the Byn can and do head in for cleansing every now and then. I've always felt that was kind of silly myself, but it keeps happening, so I guess that's just how things go.
Double Double Post Post
Worth a Read. From the RP Guru, LoD, from way back in the day.
Obviously relevant for any Leader, but I also found it relevant to the idea of 'starting' a Raider Clan/Antagonist Clan, as well.
http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,1745.msg14361.html#msg14361
Quote from: LoD, RP Guru, in 2003/4
I'll say it again, leading is rough work.
I figured some PC leaders (and their followers) could use some insight into just what goes on in the role of a leader. Now I am simply speaking from experience and certainly not implying that my way is the 'right way' or the 'best way' by any means, but it has worked for me.
It starts when you log on, every day.
From the moment you log on, You feel a foreign presence contact your mind. Someone always needs something: a few moments of your time, a decision about a job, a question about House policies, informing you one of your men is in jail, wanting to quit the House, wanting to get paid, asking to join up with the House.
And that's in the first 10 minutes. If you collect all of these requests and add them together, you've just committed yourself (if you're lucky) to about 30 mins - 1 hour of simply handling other people's tasks. This goes on all day long, so be ready for it. There's no way around it, that is your job as the leader of the clan - a slave to your people.
I know that many people think that all you do is sit around in taverns, yucking it up with clients or nobles or smoking spice in a back den somewhere, but it's all part and partial to the leading gig. People have no idea how much work it involves micro-managing a clan of players whom all want to have fun and need -you- to provide it for them. While most leaders don't mind, the general populace should be aware at how time consuming dealing with it can be.
Keeping your followers active.
One of the main things you must do to have a happy clan is keep them active. Now, this doesn't mean you have to have an RPT every single day and create large-scale plots and events. It just means that your people need to have a sense of direction and purpose. They can only stand guard at a gate or by your side for so many hours without losing their minds and wondering what the hell they are doing when their friends are telling them on ICQ how they just escaped a horde of gith and found a cool ass cave in the desert.
Keep your men busy. Use anything that you can to give them purpose and even make up small jobs that really don't mean anything. If there are 3-5 of them around, have them go outside and do something, anything. They don't need to know why it's important, you're the boss. Tell them that we need five gith skulls. That ought to keep them busy. Have them run to Red Storm and pick up a few jugs of spiced ale for a future meeting or to head north to Luir's to see what's going on of late and continue developing relations with their people.
It does seem like a lot, but it's why players play the game. They want to build a story and have a good time. Help them reach that goal. They may die, yes, but if you are a high-level leader in your clan, I highly doubt that you're going anywhere soon and fresh meat pop up all the time in their stock leggings, pack and torch waiting for work.
Reward your followers with praise and coin.
If you want to be a clan leader for long, you'd better learn how to keep players happy. That is one of the single most important things about being a leader - knowing what players want and giving them enough to stay with you.
The best system I came up with is to reward them whenever you see them and they complete a task, in addition to a monthly wage. You may have the set the wage low if you have a lot of employees, but the fact that they will receive money in their pocket that DAY instead of waiting for some kind of monthly salary will have them logging in much more frequently for a chance at some coin.
If your guards are with you when you travel somewhere to make a little 'sid with some sales, gives them a small cut. Buy them some drinks when you're in the tavern. Allow them some time to look for 'cool eq' when you're riding through a village or town they rarely get to see. Reward them when they do things well and, in return, they will begin to look for ways to serve you instead of waiting for you to tell them.
Provide them with a good set of policies and rules that empower them to do more than spar, spar, spar all day long. Give them a schedule of things to do and guidelines with which to do them so that you're both comfortable they won't run willy nilly into the sands to their death. If you don't set up these guidelines, people WILL die. They'll do it even if you DO set up good policies - I used to call it Kohmar disease when I played Khann.
I'd JUST finish buying armor, weapons, food, water and clothing for my new hire. Went over the rules and everything and the first thing they do when I'm not around is walk straight out the damn gate and die to krath-knows-what out in the desert. Wasted MY time and MY money. That happens over and over and over and over to -any- employer. Those of you whom are employees wanting to know why you may be paid so slowly - these are exactly the type of bad apples that make we leaders wary of handing out much at all.
The burden, and responsibility, of command.
You are responsible for EVERYTHING. If a player isn't have fun. Your fault. If an Imm hasn't made that special order yet, your fault. If your employee decided that it'd be fun to storm into the Trader's Inn and slaughter the single most powerful noble lord in all of the city because they were bored and thought it be 'k00l' - guess what? It's all your fault and you may be executed or punished because of the actions of another player you had NO CONTROL OVER.
This can be the single most frustrating thing about being a leader is the dreaded contact from a noble, templar or other such authority figure demanding you come speak with them about the actions of one of your employees. I know that ICly they want to bring the matter to your attention and ask why it has occurred. Someone's head has to roll. It should NOT be that of the employer, however, as they have about as much control over the players and their ultimate decisions as you have over what shirt they're wearing in RL.
In addition to this, you are responsible when people don't get paid because they log in at odd times or infrequently. You are responsible when they aren't having as much fun as they thought they would or when they get bored or when they can't figure out for themselves how to have a good time. You are always responsible and it hangs like a weight over your head to provide these things to people in your clan.
Setting goals and planning.
So, you've recruited a group of people. They train themselves and a few of them have actually managed to stay alive for more than 2 RL weeks and you want to actually use them now. As a leader, you need to take a look at your position and see what you want, and can, accomplish. Take a large long-term goal and chop it up into little sections, then set your men and yourself in motion on a timeline you'd like to see. Email the Imm Staff on your project and what you plan to do so they can jump in and help/hinder you along the way as they see fit within the confines of the game world.
Examples.
Goal: Free the dwarven slaves of the southern obsidian mines.
Step 1: Gather dwarves loyal to my cause. Train them. (ongoing)
Step 2: Establish a place of operations from which to train.
Step 3: Gather money to place bribes, hire men and get information.
Step 4: Case the mines, the guard rotations, the distance from the city.
Step 5: Meet with different nomadic tribes, asking for help.
Step 6: Meet with members of the target's enemies, asking for help.
Step 7: Meet with friends and neighbors, asking for help.
Step 8: Form a plan of attack that won't be reported to the enemy.
Step 9: Meet and gather the support of other dwarven tribes.
Step 10: Formalize the plan of attack and gather your forces.
Step 11: Set a date for the RPT, inform the Imm Staff.
Step 12: Let the RPT take its course.
Now, some of these steps may only take a few minutes while others will take RL months to handle properly. This will create a LOT of RP and direction toward a clan and its followers that gives it a drive and a reason for being. The men know the cause, they know what to do, they know why and the leader gives them the tasks they need to accomplish. You must also stay on top of everything and keep driven. Most importantly you must not DIE because if you do - almost all of your goals and planning fall apart as your employees die and leave the organization.
I could write all day about the trials and tribulations involved with being a clan leader, but I doubt anyone would want to spend the time.
Being a leader is DAMN hard work. You need to be online, attentive, diplomatic, considerate, understanding, firm, harsh, deceptive, manipulative, cunning, quick and fair all at the same time. It's not a job that anyone can do. Anything worthwhile takes time, so just put one foot in front of the other and keep things moving.
-LoD
Sandman/Bushman was before my time (although I remember the days of the desert being dangerous no matter how close you were to the city). I remember hearing rumours of Sandman though and totally thought he was a Rukkian.
You guys have me reading all kinds of old posts now. Thanks. ;)
Here's some more information that I think bears repeating for the creation of
any clan, group or plot.
Quote from: LoD on November 20, 2009, 04:14:54 PM
As far as having success, I've succeeded the most in plots where I:
1. Involve people. Create a goal that will include as many players from your own clan as possible and include steps that require both combat and non-combat roles. Imms will support a goal more readily if it involves a lot of other players, even if it is only within one clan.
2. Draw inside the lines. Create a goal within the guidelines of both the MUD and clan documentation which does not blatently go against their best wishes, common practices or established laws. (i.e. Coming up with a new style of mount for pulling wagons that grants your clan a special advantage in that field might be good whereas plotting to kill every family member in attempt to take over the operation would not be as good.)
3. Add to the game. Create a goal that has an end goal that can be both appreciated by a wide variety of players and fill a NEED in the game. Something that the game does not yet have, or needs more of.
4. Less work, better success. Create a goal that requires the least amount of Immortal intervention and work possible. If it requires work that you can do in advance, then you do as much as humanly possible. This will increase your chances of seeing it done. I guarantee that an Imm will look much more closely at your proposal if it has been well thought out and designed ahead of time than if you are depending on them to do it all for you. This would include writing up rooms, objects, NPC's, scripts, documentation, backgrounds, etc...
5. Plan to work, then work your plan. This is not an overnight gig, or even something you should expect to happen in a RL month or two. This might be something you need to commit to for several months or even years depending upon the outcome of your proposal. There are going to be pitfalls, setbacks, challenges and problems that arise which many people see as Imms telling them 'no.' My simple suggestion is not to accept that if you feel strongly enough about your actions and find another route to take. There are many roads leading to the same city, so don't be discouraged when one is closed to you. I mean, if your goal is trying to get home for Christmas and the highway you normally take is closed for repairs, do you just shrug and say, 'There's always next year.'? No, you probably figure out another way to go about accomplishing your task. The same can be done in Armageddon.
-LoD
Quote from: Reiloth on December 15, 2016, 12:52:17 AM
Well done, my apprentice. Well done.
I get what the Code Guru is saying, and though he projects a layer of vehemence in his opinion, I think we quickly praise the Grandaddy RPers of Legend, and disparage the 'common fucked up twink assholes', but really, they are one and the same. They (in this case) are Raiders. The difference between a well-played Raider and a poorly-played Raider is completely subjective. And, more often than not, the 'poorly-played Raider' is reacting to a 'poorly played Raider victim'. That is to say, the people that spam flee away and are caught with an arrow in the neck may become the next Jingo. (Sorry Jingo).
To be clear about one thing, I've never spam fled from a player who just approached me in the wilderness. And of the two times my character was shaked down by a raider, or thug, I played along each time. I love it when players play that way even though I realistically know they're going to be dead in a week anyways from an overzealous playerbase.
I'm more pissed that play like this is punished and that the arrow to the neck strategy is always going to get better results.
Edit: Ignore this. I confused an altogether shitty outlook of how people play the game and the way the game works as an actual directed 'people here suck'. Not that hard to confuse, but not the usual thing that I respond to, either, as noted.
Quote from: Armaddict on December 16, 2016, 06:54:08 PM
Jesus. Fucking -stop-.
You literally just pointed out good things that happened then went back to saying everyone else is shit. STOP IT.
Chill brah. I'm just pointing out another way the game incentives us to take the easy route. I'm not calling anyone shit just now.