Blackmoon: Stories, Reflections, Comments

[nauta]

In another context, Armaddict brought up 'Blackmoon' -- from what I gather Blackmoon was a human-based (?) bandit coded clan open to play.  However, I have never heard of Blackmoon inside the game, nor is there anything on the main website, the help files, or the chronology page on them, and unfortunately my search-fu on the gdb has hit a brick wall: searching 'blackmoon' has turned up a lot of pages about the black moon.  Sooooo, in the spirit of the Thrain Ironsword thread a while ago...

Two things. 

(1) In general, what are some stories about the Blackmoon?  I assume none of these have an effect on IC or are 'find out IC' things, but I'm happy to be told that they are. 

(2) More specific to the 'conflict' discussion, what are some thoughts -- reflections, pitfalls, prospects -- about the success or failures of the Blackmoon clan as a generalized coded clan for bandit RP?

My initial thoughts (granted no knowledge): it sounds awesome, and about perfect. 

o Mundane Human-based. Like I said, I don't think we need a desert elf bandit clan, since desert elves are codedly quite awesome, and I'd like to see a bandit clan that isn't codedly as awesome, but still a threat to the occasional lone hunter or merchant travelling the trade routes.  I also lean more towards the Badskeelz school of thought about magickers -- but not for coded reasons (although it is true magickers are codedly powerful), but lore reasons: I dislike seeing so much magick in the game.  I'd rather just see a vanilla mundane human raiding clan out there.

o A Coded Clan.  One pitfall to starting your own bandit group is that you have to recruit IG, and recruiting people into a bandit group is... to put it mildly... a pretty sticky pickle, not just because of trust issues, but because, well, how would that conversation go?  Hey!  Want to join my raiding party?  Sure!  Then, by the time they are codedly OK enough to do something fun, they are either dead or have been bought off by some other group out to kill you and your kin. Hence, a coded clan where people join your clan via chargen seems the way to go (with clan caps, etc.)

o Staff / Virtual World supported.  Presumably, this would prevent PCs from rallying together to wipe out the clan in the same way that PCs can't just roll into the Tablelands and wipe out the Soh Lanah Kah camp.

(Also, from what I gather, Benjari were also a bandit group -- I'm not sure if they were ever open to play, however.)

[Reiloth]

Blackmoon was a desert elf tribe, and way OP in the same way the Tan Muark were (as far as holdings go). They would need some heavy reworking in order to fit in, and i'd rather that time go into opening a new desert elf tribe with less baggage, honestly.

There was also the Zimund Gur (might be botching the name, it's been a while) and other raider clans that basically went the way of the dodo, for reasons that Taven described. People have an 'enemy' to band up against, and you suddenly find 3-5 clans all looking to wipe your ass out.

I'd rather have a race of arachnid demons portaling in ala Asheron's Call or something, some 'nemesis' that is similar to the Gith but maybe way OP and hard to kill and ubiquitous. A raiding clan will just get wiped, quickly. I do see having it as something you can 'point' into ala the Desert Elf tribes as something fun -- Play on the side of "good" city-faring society-driven X Y Z, or play in the 'Wasteland Warrior' side of things. Or play as a loner in Red Storm. Maybe don't allow Muls or Giants to buy in to the Wasteland Warrior Raider clan. They have to start as loners, and perhaps be woo'd by the raiders.

Mundane human-based,  i'd be cool with, but I don't see it lasting long. If there were a new tribe/raiding clan, it might be nice if it was mundane/hated magick, to fit the theme of the game better. I do like the shamanistic ideals in the Arabet/Seik/Sun Runners, but I think that can actually be accomplished without real magic. Spiritualism /= Magick.

[nauta]

Blackmoon was a desert elf tribe, and way OP in the same way the Tan Muark were (as far as holdings go). They would need some heavy reworking in order to fit in, and i'd rather that time go into opening a new desert elf tribe with less baggage, honestly.

OMIDROV, so they were desert elves.  Ugh.  I'm still interested in stories, but that changes a lot about my own reflections.

There was also the Zimund Gur (might be botching the name, it's been a while) and other raider clans that basically went the way of the dodo, for reasons that Taven described. People have an 'enemy' to band up against, and you suddenly find 3-5 clans all looking to wipe your ass out.

I would like to see the raiding clan having a kind of privileged status in the virtual world that would discourage 'wipe out' plots, but encourage 'let's guard the caravan/merchant in case of a raid' plots.  This could be accomplished in a variety of ways: a hidden hideout somewhere that players are discouraged from going; a treaty with dangerous NPCs (like the elves have) to prevent random indies running in; etc.

[Reiloth]

They're still around. They run the Desert Elf Outpost, and are NPCs/vNPCs. Their holdings are still around too. You can find them IG.

[Reiloth]

Blackmoon was a desert elf tribe, and way OP in the same way the Tan Muark were (as far as holdings go). They would need some heavy reworking in order to fit in, and i'd rather that time go into opening a new desert elf tribe with less baggage, honestly.

OMIDROV, so they were desert elves.  Ugh.  I'm still interested in stories, but that changes a lot about my own reflections.

There was also the Zimund Gur (might be botching the name, it's been a while) and other raider clans that basically went the way of the dodo, for reasons that Taven described. People have an 'enemy' to band up against, and you suddenly find 3-5 clans all looking to wipe your ass out.

I would like to see the raiding clan having a kind of privileged status in the virtual world that would discourage 'wipe out' plots, but encourage 'let's guard the caravan/merchant in case of a raid' plots.  This could be accomplished in a variety of ways: a hidden hideout somewhere that players are discouraged from going; a treaty with dangerous NPCs (like the elves have) to prevent random indies running in; etc.

The only way I see this working is by them having an Outpost that they 'protect'. Akin to Deadwood or something. So the Kuraci and other people are kill on sight (hate list), but maybe loners and other people can come there to trade.

Other way around too -- These raiders are kill on sight in Allanak and Luirs and Tuluk, but can hang out and trade at their own place.

[Pale Horse]

The Blackmoon Raiders were not a desert elf tribe, nor do they run the desert elf outpost.  You're thinking Blackwing.

That said, I admit I can't add much into this discussion.  When I first started playing, I could remember rumors and concerns from city based organizations about the Blackmoon.  If you joined the Byn or AoD, it was standard procedure to strip new recruits naked ad inspect them for any Raider specific markings, for fear of infiltrators. 

Recruitment was all IG (again, only what I remember) and I managed to have a single character, a half-elf, recruited into the group, but I didn't get to experience much of the clan.  They died during a hunt with another clan member something like a day or two after being recruited.

There is also a bunch of background information of what the clan was up to, it's politics and such and such, but I didn't learn any of this until RL years later and through other characters that stumbled onto the information.  Much of it falls under the heading of IG spoilers, still.

[Reiloth]

The Blackmoon Raiders were not a desert elf tribe, nor do they run the desert elf outpost.  You're thinking Blackwing.

That said, I admit I can't add much into this discussion.  When I first started playing, I could remember rumors and concerns from city based organizations about the Blackmoon.  If you joined the Byn or AoD, it was standard procedure to strip new recruits naked ad inspect them for any Raider specific markings, for fear of infiltrators. 

Recruitment was all IG (again, only what I remember) and I managed to have a single character, a half-elf, recruited into the group, but I didn't get to experience much of the clan.  They died during a hunt with another clan member something like a day or two after being recruited.

There is also a bunch of background information of what the clan was up to, it's politics and such and such, but I didn't learn any of this until RL years later and through other characters that stumbled onto the information.  Much of it falls under the heading of IG spoilers, still.

Oh hey, dat so true.

I was thinking of Blackwing not Blackmoon.

[Aruven]

I'm not even sure how much can be talked about, even though its all old.

Yeah, don't confuse blackwing and blackmoon.

The game is different now. Back then, staff were different. Blackmoon had some immortal interaction good and bad and was set up to be fun for awhile. I'm pretty sure an avatar or two was involved. And they LOVED playing their Avatars.

So imagine having four or five PC players and yourself all request an Immortal to build you a hidden desert raiding outpost, and they do it. That's basically blackmoon from what I understand. That only lasted so long, hideout was discovered, dead, gone. I actually think it happened in tandem with larger stories, somehow like northern and southern armies got involved.

[Molten Heart]

.

[Armaddict]

Yeah.  Blackmoon was not Blackwing.

Blackmoon was a coded tribe with an encampment on top of a plateau.  The only access was to have them lower an elevator, making them pretty much impervious to invasion/eradication until it was a staff decision to see them go (players did it; but this was during the time where world-changing plots were solely staff run and players were invited in).  Whether that was player-planned and staff hopped on, or whether staff implemented it, I can't say, I just know it got the go ahead from staff for the clan to be eliminated.

Blackmoon was a Mecca for muls, and escaped slaves altogether.  They were welcomed there, and it was a true outlet for muls to act as the general of a small military community (as per the documentation on muls and the 'common sense' from Dark Sun.  Muls often lead when not enslaved).  Blackmoon generally raided in numbers; lone travelers were their prey.

Someone noted above that they were notorious for not killing people who cooperated.  That was true.  But people were just as prone to running away as they are now, and escapes happened often.  They were also notorious for being ballsy; They assaulted Luir's gates a few times when I was playing my first long-lived ranger, Zylin.  I got to kill one with arrows before they beat it.

The northern span was a very dangerous place during the days where raiders were more common.  It was a bottleneck, something that when you looked in that direction and saw someone, you had a serious issue of doubt as to whether they were peaceful and resting, or waiting for a target.  It was a different wilderness dynamic that I don't experience often today; for the most part, you can assume that people are friendly out in the sands.  Either that, or I've just been extremely lucky in who I ran into for like...six straight years. XD

Notably, LoD ran a very famous Blackmoon leader named Bushman.  He was the first 'lone archer' scenario I ever encountered in the game, and I was both an ally and enemy with different characters.  It was what led me to coming up with an idea of how to react to it suitable.  Bushman routinely hassled large groups until he was notorious enough that he could demand tribute from Byn units outside the gate, and they'd pay it.

Overall, they were the big fish of most of the desert.  There were small raiding groups at any given time, but all the small groups cowed to the Blackmoon raiders.  I often talk about how much it's changed, as far as the wilderness being far less dangerous than it used to be; it's not because of critters, it's because raiding and pvp out in the desert was once welcomed and facilitated.  While we don't outright say 'no, this is bad', we are not exactly welcoming as a community towards the idea of a group that targets solely based off of opportunity nowadays, because it doesn't fit a specific narrative.  It just fits the world.

[Armaddict]

Oh yeah.  I forgot.  I got really weirded out when I started to play Armageddon, because as I got more aware of how things worked, I also noted how strange it was that sometimes, my employer would have me strip down for inspections, particularly when I was a 'fresh recruit'.

I found out later that it was a routine thing done at the time, because Blackmoon had the 'rule' that the black moon tattoo had to be given.  It could be hidden, but you'd have one.  At the time, people were incredibly paranoid about blackmoon spies, because they would purposely infiltrate other entities in order to be kept in the loop of upcoming opportunities they could get involved in.

Sometimes, Blackmoon was the unforeseen, profiteering third party that arrived out of nowhere in a conflict.  Notable to this is one of the skirmishes between the north and south prior to the war, where they essentially came and wiped out the victors in order to claim the spoils.

[nauta]

These stories are amazing, Armaddict.  I'd soooooooo love to see a Blackmoon-style group returned.

More stories!

[Akaramu]

These stories are amazing, Armaddict.  I'd soooooooo love to see a Blackmoon-style group returned.

Start one! 

[Riev]

These stories are amazing, Armaddict.  I'd soooooooo love to see a Blackmoon-style group returned.

Start one! 

Unfortunately, that was kind of the point to the stories. They existed back when staff were less Storytellers as they were group Dungeon Masters. Someone decided the idea of Blackmoon was good, and gave them support. A place to call home, a tattoo, ranks, and some other things. But as was also mentioned, while it makes sense for the setting, it doesn't work out well for the player base we have these days. There are no Halaster's, no Plainsman, no Shattered, we're in a VERY low dip for the Low Fantasy part of the game. You can't just "start a raider group" because the closest you get is a family tribe at best, and there is no promise of staff support which is, frankly, necessary.

[nauta]

These stories are amazing, Armaddict.  I'd soooooooo love to see a Blackmoon-style group returned.

Start one! 

Maybe.  The current MMH documentation (and my recent experience with a gang in the rinth and staff support for an MMH pursued there) makes this a very real possibility for a player-created bandit clan out of Red Storm.  (That said, I find playing in Red Storm to be OOCly frustrating with the storm, the death beetles, and the gates closing.  A looooot of downtime to put it mildly.)

[Armaddict]

These stories are amazing, Armaddict.  I'd soooooooo love to see a Blackmoon-style group returned.

Start one! 

Unfortunately, that was kind of the point to the stories. They existed back when staff were less Storytellers as they were group Dungeon Masters. Someone decided the idea of Blackmoon was good, and gave them support. A place to call home, a tattoo, ranks, and some other things. But as was also mentioned, while it makes sense for the setting, it doesn't work out well for the player base we have these days. There are no Halaster's, no Plainsman, no Shattered, we're in a VERY low dip for the Low Fantasy part of the game. You can't just "start a raider group" because the closest you get is a family tribe at best, and there is no promise of staff support which is, frankly, necessary.

Eh, I wouldn't put it all in staff's camp.  I think ultimately, staff's role to play is some limited support, but nothing momentous.  This is not supposed to be a world changing group, just a part of what world exists.  Right now, that portion of the world is under-represented.

Moreso, I think that we have a problem with the antagonist role.  Or more specifically, we have a problem with anti-antagonism.  People keep talking about 'stamping out' conflict, and blaming the quickness to kill.  I don't think that's the problem.  I think one raider clan that can recruit IC'ly will survive a good long time with very limited support, given that not everyone in the known decides to band together against it.

It's a raider group.  Allanak doesn't care unless they're outside with a force.  The byn doesn't care unless they get hired (and it should be noted that they will turn it into escort contracts more than seek and destroy, because the latter eliminates further contracts).  The merchant houses don't care unless one of their wagons come under attack.

This is why we had so many clans before, was that everyone was of a 'stay out of each other's business' mentality, which was very very healthy for the state of conflict in the game.  One antagonist group didn't often arouse the ire of the rest of the playerbase.  It was all situational, where you secured -your- shit against it, then left everyone else to fend for themselves.

It's a player mentality problem, of us playing this game as a cooperative vs evil type game.  We seem to have a hard time giving ourselves tunnel vision on our characters and their interests.  This isn't saying that people are unsensible; given the amount of content in the game to be involved in, people are hungry.  But that hunger has led to kind of an unhealthy state of the playerbase where we're feeding our own disliked things in the game.

The farthest I'd say staff needs to be involved is to continue to incentivize good behaviors on more fronts than they currently do.  If there's a group starting conflict, mold the way that it's conflicting if it doesn't fit.  Sometimes that can be heavy handed, sometimes that can be subtle hints, but there are lots of IC ways to get it handled.  If you see people dogpiling a conflict that shouldn't be theirs, take an approach that brings up why that's weird.  Find out why.  Make them explain it.  If there's a group doing things poorly or in a non-representational way, correct that particular behavior.

The only place I think -requires- staff involvement is in massive world conflict, in order to ensure the static sandbox of the game remains intact.  Players with their goals all want to document momentous change to be remembered by, and sometimes that does not coincide with the best interest of the continuing game-universe.  That and there's a lot of facilitation, directly, required for it.

[Delirium]

These stories are amazing, Armaddict.  I'd soooooooo love to see a Blackmoon-style group returned.

Start one! 

There's opportunities out there for those who want to raid, though it depends on where your PC's from and hangs out.

[Dunetrade55]

I do think that's an important concept, Armaddict. More times than I can count I've been blindsided from all angles to where I'm just like, well shit, what are THESE guys doing in on it too? My beef is with entity X over here, and entity W, Y and Z are all now clammoring to murder my ass.

[Armaddict]

I do think that's an important concept, Armaddict. More times than I can count I've been blindsided from all angles to where I'm just like, well shit, what are THESE guys doing in on it too? My beef is with entity X over here, and entity W, Y and Z are all now clammoring to murder my ass.

I don't think it's unreasonable.  People finally see an antagonist, someone who's purposely being an asshole, and they don't want to let them get away with it.

But I think it's important that small-scale conflicts stay small scale until such a time that they can actually survive the large conflict.  A raider group fighting one group can recover from losses.  Thus, killing their PC's is not that damaging.  It's when they get strangled from all sides that they really just...can't recover. 

To those groups who should be disinterested, but need something to do?  Watch on closely.  Hire spies to keep tabs on it, without any authorization to influence anything.  Look for opportune times to influence things in your favor, regardless of which side that means helping.  If these small scale things live long enough, more of them will start springing up, each of them at odds with different groups.

I don't think we need a massive enemy for all of us to go america fuck yeah on together.  I think we just need enough small ones that everyone has a group they're at odds with but can't effectively wipe out.  A raiding clan isn't wiped out when two of its PCs get killed in a failed raid.  It does get wiped out if that's the moment that the uninvolved templar sends his mages to make sure that group never rises again, or that merchant house decides to stop trading because they're a raiding group.

So I hope you get one off the ground, Nauta.  And I hope the various groups have the common sense to say 'Oh.  That's not my problem.' and create their own conflict elsewhere, rather than jump onto the convenient dogpile.

[Dunetrade55]

An excellent post, Armaddict. I agree entirely. And same, Nauta. Maybe one day we'll meet and both be like, "This is a raid! Don't resist and I won't have to gut you!" "Hey! That's my line?!" "Who the fuck's raiding here, and who's getting raided?!" "I dunno, thinking's hard, let's go get a pint instead." "But this is a raid!" "Right, and I'm thirsty."

[Ourla]

This thread is so exciting (and I'm trying to rally LoD to reply!). The Blackmoon were juuuust before my time, but I remember being trained ICly to be cautious on the road exactly because of their legacy.

For the folks saying raider groups need staff support, I don't necessarily agree with that. The right words to your local crimelord or, even better, shady templar, could get you a long way. All you need is a good terrain recon and a solid plan.

[perfecto]

The Black Moon were amazing, I only got a chance to be at the "hideout" once or twice but you're right about it being a haven for muls and ex-slaves that was their bread n butter.  Crazy how well they were organized after the fact they all got together in the first place, I guess like-minds.. you know.

also I agree its not as hard as some would say, to get something like this happening again. Small scale at first, you have to build your brand!   Get people to notice your efforts and the the next character they make (after ya kill em ) will likely be a badass raider who comes waltzing your way with a great reason you should have em on your crew!   

[Lutagar]

Raiders need a "safe-space" to be able to chill when they're not out ruining people's days.

It's why the blackmoon and redfangs were able to pull off what no group of independents could ever hope to do. If you think you can retreat to red storm or some cave in the middle of nowhere after a hard day's villainy, well, better get your next PC concept ready.

[Armaddict]

If you think you can retreat to red storm or some cave in the middle of nowhere after a hard day's villainy, well, better get your next PC concept ready.

Red Storm is still relatively safe as long as you treat it the same as you treat any other hideout.  Safe, but not -actually- safe.  The same way taverns are safe, but not -actually- safe.  You still have to be on your toes and ready to react to things.

Bases do make everything easier.  But I'd like for people to not be discouraged by humble beginnings.  You don't need a base to make a name for a group.  You just need a target and a bit of healthy paranoia.

Edit:  This is also reinforcement of the game world.  Red Storm may get assassins and such sent into it, but the state of Red Storm really don't give no fucks if a raider lives there unless the raider is purposely using it as a safe haven from hot pursuit.  That last part is important. 

[Lutagar]

Bases do make everything easier.  But I'd like for people to not be discouraged by humble beginnings.  You don't need a base to make a name for a group.  You just need a target and a bit of healthy paranoia.

There's a very good reason no one's ever been able to pull off a successful independent raiding gang since literally the start of armageddon. But by all means, my man, I encourage you and those saying how easy it is to actually attempt it. Show me and those other scrubs (some who had mulish karma) how wrong we've all been doing it.