Quote from: http://armageddon.org/help/view/SymbolThe Symbol Command: This command is used to display the mood, sphere, and element for a spell that your character knows how to cast. This is considered OOC information, meaning we leave it up to the player to play out how their character knows this information. A mentor may have explained it to them, a parent, magickal intuition, or even hearing it whispered on the wind.

So, no more sifting through random combinations to find the right one? If that's correct then fuck yeah. I never liked that aspect of magick.

Yeah, it's great because it no longer relies on the storage of information offline, like in your spreadsheetz of arma sekritz (that whole era needs to just die). More code knowledge for all, more focus on RP!

Also, let's have something like this for crafting, where we can sense different crafting options for a single component!

The first time I played a magicker and had to puzzle through finding all these spell combos I had a lot of fun. It was a unique and new system I had to figure out. The second time I played that class I had trouble RPing my characters confusion and learning, because I personally knew all the spells. Do I go through them like I did before, infer what I know from the words to get there faster, or does it even matter? It's a big quality of life change for solo magickers and those who want to get into the action as quick as possible. Now all that time spent looking for the right combos can be used sparring up the weapon skills they have /s.

Quote from: lostinspace on June 21, 2016, 01:17:44 PM
The first time I played a magicker and had to puzzle through finding all these spell combos I had a lot of fun. It was a unique and new system I had to figure out.

Quote from: game
cast 'blah blah blah blah one' .... Nope.
cast 'blah blah blah blah two' .... Nope.
cast 'blah blah blah blah three' .... Nope.
.....
cast 'blah blah blah blah thirty six' .... Nope.

Can't say I ever had fun doing that.

I think previously I had advocated expanding this aspect of magickal learning, since I found it was fun and prompted interaction, e.g., you'd have to seek a master or bribe another gick to get the code to a newly learned spell.  But then someone pointed out -- it might of even been myself -- that the combinations were so small you could wardial them anyway, making the point moot.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on June 21, 2016, 01:23:48 PM

Quote from: game
cast 'blah blah blah blah one' .... Nope.
cast 'blah blah blah blah two' .... Nope.
cast 'blah blah blah blah three' .... Nope.
.....
cast 'blah blah blah blah thirty six' .... Nope.

Can't say I ever had fun doing that.

Well before I started I'd think about the spell and what the different symbols meant. Most the time I'd get it on try five or six unless it was really oddball. I suppose you could iterate through all the combinations every time, and I did that for a couple I just couldn't get, but those were the exception, not the rule.

If you still want to try and "guess" the correct pattern, no one is stopping you, maybe some people enjoy that but I know I really dislike it

This is a great change!

Back in my day, we knew the meaning of divan hekro.

Here.  Let me teach you.

I like this addition to the help file:

"A mentor may have explained it to them, a parent, magickal intuition, or even hearing it whispered on the wind."

I believe my first question to staff as a gick was how we go about RP learning these symbols.

Thank you wind. You helpful shit you.


Now I can finally be my  wind sage/hippy

Other things the wind whispers, including symbols:

"Don't get put in the Arena..."

"Divan Hekroooooo...."

"Did you zip up your pants..."

"Behind you! Just kidding...."

Can I also type >swirdnabuso over and over and obtain Master Slashing?

Just kidding. Seems like a nice change, saving time and giving a bit more organic structure to a wonky part of the code.

Quote from: Reiloth on June 21, 2016, 04:19:17 PM
Other things the wind whispers, including symbols:

"Don't get put in the Arena..."

"Divan Hekroooooo...."

"Did you zip up your pants..."

"Behind you! Just kidding...."

I really do hope you know this is a new character concept for me.
A whiran that hears shit in the wind and is PRETTY SURE they aren't crazy.



Staff...if you ever want to fuck with me by making me hear shit...fucking go for it.

Good. It's nice that people who repeatedly play magickers won't have an advantage over those new to the role simply due to the need to figure out spell words. That never made sense to me for an elementalist. A sorcerer, it absolutely made sense, but not for someone whose ability to work with an element was supposed to be inborn. Nice change guys.

There's no bloody advantage that repeat mages get that repeat other classes don't.

Repeat ranger players figure out herbal hotspots and hunting areas.

Repeat merchants figure out all the tough recipes and great shops.

Repeat warriors figure out stack timing and best weapon combos.

The problem here is that a lot of the fun isn't doing spells the dipshit random word assignment way, its in the actual figuring out of what the fucking symbols mean so you can look at the name and help file of a spell and go "Ohhhh... well it definitely isn't an inrof.  Lets try a wril.  Probably a wril."

Honestly I think this command should only be available to mages AFTER they figure out the spell words on their own.

Quote from: lostinspace on June 21, 2016, 01:55:44 PM

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on June 21, 2016, 01:23:48 PM

Quote from: game
cast 'blah blah blah blah one' .... Nope.
cast 'blah blah blah blah two' .... Nope.
cast 'blah blah blah blah three' .... Nope.
.....
cast 'blah blah blah blah thirty six' .... Nope.

Can't say I ever had fun doing that.

Well before I started I'd think about the spell and what the different symbols meant. Most the time I'd get it on try five or six unless it was really oddball. I suppose you could iterate through all the combinations every time, and I did that for a couple I just couldn't get, but those were the exception, not the rule.

Totally this, LIS.  Whether or not the player know the words, having your character think through the process, or argue with another player, or "sitting and listening to a lesson in the temple" or even yell at their element about being a bitch (or bastard) for keeping the spell hidden is the role-play that can help define the gickers angst and pain and loss and change.

Nope, sorry staff, you know I think you rock, but I am against this one and wish it gone.

Quote from: Culinary Critic on June 21, 2016, 07:08:00 PM

Quote from: lostinspace on June 21, 2016, 01:55:44 PM

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on June 21, 2016, 01:23:48 PM

Quote from: game
cast 'blah blah blah blah one' .... Nope.
cast 'blah blah blah blah two' .... Nope.
cast 'blah blah blah blah three' .... Nope.
.....
cast 'blah blah blah blah thirty six' .... Nope.

Can't say I ever had fun doing that.

Well before I started I'd think about the spell and what the different symbols meant. Most the time I'd get it on try five or six unless it was really oddball. I suppose you could iterate through all the combinations every time, and I did that for a couple I just couldn't get, but those were the exception, not the rule.

Totally this, LIS.  Whether or not the player know the words, having your character think through the process, or argue with another player, or "sitting and listening to a lesson in the temple" or even yell at their element about being a bitch (or bastard) for keeping the spell hidden is the role-play that can help define the gickers angst and pain and loss and change.

Nope, sorry staff, you know I think you rock, but I am against this one and wish it gone.

This might makes sense the first time you play, perhaps even the second time. Some people have been playing around 10 years or longer. Ultimately not knowing the commands is only a barrier for a first time mage player. With this change, the choice to use this command is up to you. If you want to RP not knowing any of the commands and having to hunt them down ICly, thats perfectly fine, no one is forcing you to use this command, or a list you created/found/recieved, or heck even your very own memory.

This is a good change.

Quote
Stuff

This might makes sense the first time you play, perhaps even the second time. Some people have been playing around 10 years or longer. Ultimately not knowing the commands is only a barrier for a first time mage player. With this change, the choice to use this command is up to you. If you want to RP not knowing any of the commands and having to hunt them down ICly, thats perfectly fine, no one is forcing you to use this command, or a list you created/found/recieved, or heck even your very own memory.

This is a good change.
[/quote]

But having to craft from scratch shouldn't have the same capability?  Craft armour/weapon/tool/component/rope/soap/it'sahugefuckinglist...shouldn't? 
Symbol: mastercraftwickedcoolbonesword
Oh, go forage a bit of bone and a sapphire and a patch of Tektolnes' skin and you're good to go!  Cheers!

Mapping?  Forget about it.
Symbol:  Luir's
Go E:E:E:E:N:N:N:N:N:W:W:N:W:W:W:N:N:N:E:E:E:E:E:N:get coins belt:sit bar:buy bamberry:hold embossed:drink embossed

Crafting is a huge part of the word.  Yeah, it's spammed sometimes.  The Known is a huge part of the world, and, yeah, those of us who have seen a lot of it spam it sometimes.  Magick is a huge part of the world and yeah, it's spammed sometimes.  But give a brother/sister a chance to -explore-, dammit.  Same as with crafting, same as with mapping, same as with Rangering, same as with Bynning, same as with every other aspect of the game

Don't spoon feed us the highly classified details that we've been chasing for years!

Come on, man!

This is a direct "magick skill development is less important than other skill development, at least from an RP perspective" statement.  It goes along with other changes that have happened in the World.  And if that's the way things are going, I'll adapt.  But I'm not going to like it, particularly up front, particularly as I've only played a small handful of magickers.

I'm a big fan of staff doing the right thing and not soliciting player opinion ahead of time (mainly because we can't agree on shit-all as a player base) but magick has taken a shit kicking in the past few months.  Why is it the problem child that needs a good beating?

I'm scared that magick will go the way of kanks, sharp tribes, Under-Tuluk, rape (sorry, had to put it in), Hulm nobility....Tuluk and a host of other aspects of this game that players like me (who have eight years in, not quite ten, get back to you in 19 months) have not had the chance to experience.

Staff, change your minds on this one.

Quote from: Malifaxis on June 21, 2016, 06:49:15 PM
There's no bloody advantage that repeat mages get that repeat other classes don't.

Repeat ranger players figure out herbal hotspots and hunting areas.

Repeat merchants figure out all the tough recipes and great shops.

Repeat warriors figure out stack timing and best weapon combos.

The problem here is that a lot of the fun isn't doing spells the dipshit random word assignment way, its in the actual figuring out of what the fucking symbols mean so you can look at the name and help file of a spell and go "Ohhhh... well it definitely isn't an inrof.  Lets try a wril.  Probably a wril."

Honestly I think this command should only be available to mages AFTER they figure out the spell words on their own.

This is a good argument, and to an extent I agree. But absolutely nothing is keeping you from continuing to roleplay that way.

Quote from: Culinary Critic on June 21, 2016, 10:10:53 PM
But having to craft from scratch shouldn't have the same capability?  Craft armour/weapon/tool/component/rope/soap/it'sahugefuckinglist...shouldn't? 
Symbol: mastercraftwickedcoolbonesword
Oh, go forage a bit of bone and a sapphire and a patch of Tektolnes' skin and you're good to go!  Cheers!

Analyze basically does this.

Quote from: Culinary Critic on June 21, 2016, 10:10:53 PM
Mapping?  Forget about it.
Symbol:  Luir's
Go E:E:E:E:N:N:N:N:N:W:W:N:W:W:W:N:N:N:E:E:E:E:E:N:get coins belt:sit bar:buy bamberry:hold embossed:drink embossed

And the combination of the "directions" command in the city and the availability of this map pretty much give you all the guidelines you need to traverse the known.



Ultimately, I don't think this is going to be a very big change.  It saves new players of mages a little bit of time (and I do mean a little, we're not talking thousands of hours of trial an error, here) and that's about it.

For my own personal use, I'm glad of the symbol command. For the game, I'm not so sure it's the best option.

For me, I'm great with Sudoku games. I turn the puzzle upside down (I'm left-handed, my brain thinks backward), and I can *see* the entire puzzle filled in correctly in my mind.

But give me a hangman game with a whole phrase, and I'll be stumped for an hour. Word puzzles are hard for me.

Until now, I would try maybe half a dozen possibilities for any new spell my PC learned. And if I couldn't figure it out with the obvious choices, I'd refer to "the list" for the actual answer. Sometimes the answer wasn't on "the list" and I'd be stumped for RL weeks. This, in fact, was why most of my mages never maxed out. Because they learned a brand new spell that *I* wasn't able to figure out and practice up to the highest strength.

With crafting, you don't have to craft one specific thing in order to branch the next crafting skill. You can craft any of dozens of items on your current list of stuff, and if you fail enough times you'll eventually branch. With magick, you must do things fairly precisely. You have ONE spell you have to practice, and "how" you practice it is limited if you're looking to branch the next spell on the list.

Similarly with combat - yes, if you want to branch "big stick" fighting, you must use a little stick, max out little stick, and it'll eventually branch out. But your options of what you must practice your little stick on, is limitless. You can practice it on anything that can codedly be used as a target. You can practice non-stop for an hour too, without having to stop to rest. If you're a mage, you have to stop when your mana runs out. That might be right away, it might be in 5 minutes, but when it runs out, you're DONE until you can get that mana back. Depending on where you are while you're waiting, it could take up to an hour to get it all back.

That's why I never understood the whining about spam-casting. It just isn't possible to spam-cast for any length of time, because every time you cast, you use up mana, and if you're out, you are not codedly capable of casting anything at all til you get it back.

So I'm good with the idea of symbol. It's one headache out of many that is eliminated, it's another hour, two hours, maybe even 24 RL hours of play time, that I'm not stuck in a temple or remote location, not interacting with anyone, because I just need to alt-tab to my spreadsheet and cross off each combination I try until I find one that works.

HOWEVER: I do NOT think it should be an option for "new mages." That is to say - players who are playing mages for the first couple of times. I think they should need to experience the "puzzling out" process, first. After their first or second mage character, the symbol command should be unlocked for their account. Then they can choose whether or not to use it.

I... never really had a problem figuring out sphere and mood for spells. The designations are savvy enough that if you know what a spell does, you can kinda reason out the words for it.

I guess its inevitable, though. The game isn't attracting new players like it used to, and odds are most everyone who plays already knows the words or has a copy of the cheat sheet.

Quote from: Malifaxis on June 21, 2016, 06:49:15 PM
There's no bloody advantage that repeat mages get that repeat other classes don't.

Repeat ranger players figure out herbal hotspots and hunting areas.

Repeat merchants figure out all the tough recipes and great shops.

Repeat warriors figure out stack timing and best weapon combos.

The problem here is that a lot of the fun isn't doing spells the dipshit random word assignment way, its in the actual figuring out of what the fucking symbols mean so you can look at the name and help file of a spell and go "Ohhhh... well it definitely isn't an inrof.  Lets try a wril.  Probably a wril."

Honestly I think this command should only be available to mages AFTER they figure out the spell words on their own.

Pretty much. I can't imagine that any ranger is going "This is a new character who wouldn't know that this road leads to Morin's so I'm not going to go down it."

I have only played the subguild mage thingies, but I had no trouble at all figuring out how to cast the spells once I figured out that you had to string words together. The helpfiles were pretty explanatory and you could easily guess which words might be tied to what sort of spell. I doubt I failed more than once or twice trying to get it right.

I don't know what stack timing is, but as someone trying to get the hang of warriors ... I want to.

I think this is a fantastic addition to the game.

Quote from: Malifaxis on June 21, 2016, 06:49:15 PM
There's no bloody advantage that repeat mages get that repeat other classes don't.

Repeat ranger players figure out herbal hotspots and hunting areas.

Repeat merchants figure out all the tough recipes and great shops.

Repeat warriors figure out stack timing and best weapon combos.

The problem here is that a lot of the fun isn't doing spells the dipshit random word assignment way, its in the actual figuring out of what the fucking symbols mean so you can look at the name and help file of a spell and go "Ohhhh... well it definitely isn't an inrof.  Lets try a wril.  Probably a wril."

Honestly I think this command should only be available to mages AFTER they figure out the spell words on their own.

Ayup. All the best mages I have played around have done this, and taught my PC in this way. But how do you write that into code young master Malfaxis?  Folks just need to RP. Sad if they don't.