Armageddon General Discussion Board

Well, I keep coming back to Armageddon trying to recapture the awesomeness that was, but I can't find it.  I'm not sure if I've changed or the game has changed so much that I can no longer find any enjoyment in it.  No doubt both my own growth and that of the game are to blame, like any bad relationship.  =)

God knows I spent plenty of my days in my twenties scouring the sands and am responsible for the three-wheeled wagon that Kurac owned - responsible as the player who commissioned it and paid for it. I wonder if they still own it.  It always warmed my heart to see it cutting through the sands.  Likewise, my short-lived and unsuccessful templar did write something that years later another character of mine found (and had someone read to her) - both awesome events because it brings home a sense of history.

However, I have little time or patience these days to spend twenty minutes walking somewhere to spend hours gathering and then hours/days/a week for a vendor to buy it from me.  I feel deeply saddened that the hodgepodge of a thing that is Tuluk now reins supreme over Zalanthas with plenty of free food and inexpensive water.  What has gone one between Allanak and Tuluk highlights, really, what I see as a deviation from the vision of the harsh and brutal world I logged on years ago to find and what it is in reality. 

I've said for years the game is no longer big enough for two cities and this is still true - and by that I meant Tuluk should never have been raised up.  Everything about it seems synthetic and forced.  Allanak has the history and the reality of Zalanthas as it was first conceived.  It is only this city that carries the spirit of the mud and yet it is slowly dying due to lack of attention (rooftoop additions, not withstanding).  It was only this week that a staff wrote to tell me (regarding a question about Allanak) that there would be no more buildling, yet this same week, land was added around Tuluk.  Hooray. 

Even the change of titles for the Overlords leaves a bad taste in my mouth.  Could we ask for something a little more bland and pre-chewed, please? 

At least, when Armageddon had the hard-nosed Immortal rep the game rocked very hard.  Now - it's like an old man sighing on his deathbed. 

My preference for play has always been the average joe and when I would fool myself into thinking that I could play the rich or elite found myself bored because it was all just too easy.  At the same time, I don't want to compete with folks that have it easy because they live in the favored town.

Granted, there is no finer roleplay between PCs than can be found on Armageddon, when it's found.  Permadeth does lend itself to protecting one's character's life (reasonably so) at the expense of RP, but also adds that necessary edge.  Roleplay, however, isn't the only thing we log on for - right?  Otherwise we might join any MUSH or MUD.

Anyway, I'm a little dejected at what has become of the mighty Armageddon.  I may play out this last character I have - or not.  If I do, I'm pretty sure I won't enjoy it as I watch the clock, trying to plan my evening out with the wife and family while my character is lost in a sandstorm unable to find a quit safe room in the middle of the night.

</ramble>

Bwhahaha!  ;)

Armageddon seems pretty awesome to me.

Take a long break, and then come back with a dwarf warrior, and try and create your own mercenary group.

Be more rough than what you think the Byn shouldof been.

Usually you need to play with different people, and then you'll find your own fun again.   It's all about your own personal enjoyment, remember.

Maybe it's because Tuluk had the reputation of being a ghost town for a long time. At least I got that idea when in the beginning. Hopefully Nak will get the same attention soon.

This is exactly how I've been feeling, lately. I had a huge potential end-world plot,
but it looks like they've got it all laid out, nice and cozy, and don't want any player
involvement in that, they don't want any deviation from their well-laid `plans.`

I feel crushed, inside. Absolutely terminated. Don't see much point, really, in going
on with this B.S. Seems the only plots you get approval any more are the ones that
involve killing someone or some shit like that. Nothing out of the box or remotely
original. ~shrug~ Kind of pointless . . .

I don't see this at all. There are still player run plots happening, with staff assistance. If there's certain areas getting more attention than others, there's probably a good reason (like IC involvement between PCs).

I just don't see the huge disparity between Tuluk and Allanak, and I'm sorry that you do. Perhaps you'll be back eventually.

I also don't see much of what Charas is talking about. I mean, I do see plots that intentionally involve death. But I also see a whole lot of interesting strands of plots, from the point of view of someone who isn't involved in them...that have nothing to do with intentionally killing anyone. At least not from the perspective I'm seeing them from. Some of them are world-changing plots that have been going on for a long time and just hasn't gotten the thrust and impetus that they've needed, from players or staff. Sometimes it's just lousy timing. You're ripe to roll with something, but then the staff is in the middle of rotation again and it just has to be put on hold. Then by the time they're ready to run with the idea, your character is dead, and there's no PC interested in picking it up again.

I think with the latest system of rotations, where someone stays through at least one rotation to allow for some continuity, things are able to go more smoothly and organically.

But hey - even that guy has to go on vacation some time.

Maybe you're right. Maybe when the next rotation comes along, I'll be in luck.

Until then: ... :'( ??? :(

Everyone knows the populations of the game fluctuate, and MANY of the additions that are going into Arm1 are there solely for Arm2's code base.

Being an avid Tuluk player, I'm glad there are additions coming in, but when there are 50 people online, MAYBE 15 of them are actually in Tuluk. I've looked.

Too bad to see you go, though, but as people get older, nostalgia sets in and things are never how they once were.

Sorry you feel that way, and best of luck.

I feel for ya, DustMight and Lord Charas. (And whoever else thinks the BA level of Arm is sliding down the crap-shute.)

I started playing about 5 years ago, and it seemed very bad-ass back then. When I started talking with Olde Tymers about the good ol' bad days of the mid 90's, I started to realize that this was quickly turning from Armageddon MUD to Kitten Petting MUD. (Of course, I heard most of this from Delerak, the guy who used to destroy entire Byn patrols with his ranger. Maybe it was skewed a little. :p)

I remember at one point reading Moire Kurac's journal, and the variety of shit that happened over 1 PCs lifetime. From an all out brawl between Kurac and the nakki Templarate/AOD. The life, death, and entombment of a defiler (whose Tomb is still IG, and the imms will STILL try to kill you if you go there.) Man, it was off the hook back in those days.

The problem I see is that imms have capped the potential greatness of a PC. Before they'd hand you the keys to a max warrior/ranger gith chieftan with 50 NPCs at your disposal and say "here, fuck some PCs up." Now, I'd need to cradle the balls and slurp the gravy just to get a rukkian with the slashing skill approved. I think the strict adherence to the rules of Karma/ Immortal favoritism (not necessarily separate concepts) have a lot to do with the backslide of the game. The same way the constitution allowed me to shoot a man who stole my horse in the 1800's, but now, in 2009, if someone breaks into my house waving a gun at me I have to ask him politely to leave, or else I'LL end up getting sued or going to prison. (A bit over-inflated, but not really.) Amendment and refinement does NOT equal better.

Bynners don't even die for no good reason anymore! If you fight NPCs in an RPT, the imms put MERCY on those fuckers so that everyone makes it home safely.

When's the last time you've seen metal on someone who WASN'T a Templar / immpet?

Why has Kurac not decided to take over the weapons/armor business, and thus declared all out war on Salarr? (Answer: Because you'd get force stored the moment you fired off the think.)

Where are the massive PC raider groups?

Why has no one suicide bombed the Gaj lately?

Why is there not a Kadian walking up Caravan Road with a spice pipe hanging out of their mouth? Just because it's illegal doesn't mean it's illegal!


The answer? WAR! Lets see Nak and Tuluk duke it out again soon! If I have to fly to an imm's house and force him, at gun point, to log in as Tek and do a:

contact muk
psi You hear that, you mind-bending fuck? That's your mom screaming while I give it to her hard. Oh yeah, baby!

I WILL!

Sorry you're not having fun, man. Come back any time!

Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on August 05, 2009, 12:03:51 AM

I remember at one point reading Moire Kurac's journal, and the variety of shit that happened over 1 PCs lifetime. From an all out brawl between Kurac and the nakki Templarate/AOD. The life, death, and entombment of a defiler (whose Tomb is still IG, and the imms will STILL try to kill you if you go there.) Man, it was off the hook back in those days.

Maan . . . Sure wish I was around back /then/. ~sighs, sadly~

That shit sounds dope. Especially that bit about the sorcerer.

You know, the sickest thing about this plot I've been trying to approach . . . ?
It's gonna have to happen anyway. I guarantee: You /will/ see the results of it in
Arm 2. The imm's have, or are still in the process of laying it out, even as we
speak. I guess they just don't want any IG PC touching it, adding his own flavour.
They've planned it out /just/ so, and they don't want anyone fuckin' around with it
. . . That, or they don't want this plot to resolve itself IG . . . Heh. I guess they just
want to keep the whole event strictly virtual, or something. I'll tell you straight up
though, you /will/ see it's effects when Arm 2 comes around. They'll draft up a big
story, no doubt, just to explain how it all rolled out in the off-time between Arm 1
and Arm 2. Yeah, I'm jaded; I'm looking through this world through jade-tinted
shades . . . Me, personally, I feel the life of this world has just been /murdered/, just
completely murdered, and the grand extermination hasn't even hit, yet. I just don't
see the point in playing, when I can have some virtual-ass character playing for me,
doing my plots for me . . . At least they'll probably have some basic imm-support.

It seems like there's a lot of harshing on the imms going on here.  I don't depend on staff for my enjoyment of the game and I'm having as much fun playing it now as I did a few years back.  *shrug*

QuoteI don't depend on staff for my enjoyment of the game and I'm having as much fun playing it now as I did a few years back.

I don't either. If I had to I'd sooner die of boredom.

Anyway, that's not really the point of this, really . . .

You try getting a plot stolen right from under your ass.

You'd feel how I feel . . . You'd know precisely how
much it blows . . . It doesn't feel good. At /all/ . . .

It's a huge turn-off, people . . . A huge turn-off.

(http://blogs.citypages.com/canderson/images/smallestviolin.jpg)

Quote from: Ampere on August 05, 2009, 02:16:07 AM
(http://blogs.citypages.com/canderson/images/smallestviolin.jpg)

Laughing still.  It's been ten minutes.  Hearty approval.

Lol. Why did you have to remind us. Those are eight years
of pure hell I don't wish to remember. :'( Is this an omen ?
Is Arm 2 gonna take eight years to be released ?   :( :(

Personally, I've always thought it would take longer. True,
it had probably been a secret project for a while, before it
was finally announced, but look at how long Arm 1's taken
to get to where it is now. Fifteen years now give or take  ?

I mean really. Even after /all/ this time, it -/still/- feels a bit
like a work in progress, Arm 1 that is, with new updates in
code, and bugs to squash, and skills to add, and so forth.

Don't get your hopes up, guys, 'cuz it's gonna be a while.

Count on it.

Having been brought into the game by someone who has been playing for right at a decade now, and being at a couple pretty big APMs and hearing so many awesome stories of the good old days, I can understand where you are coming from, but taking everything I have heard, read, and experienced myself in the games, these are the observations of a two and a half year noob.


This game was suppose to end on June 1st 2007.  heh, yeah, I know.
This means that the "end game" was planned to happen then.
That means that whatever end was planned had to be slowed to the point that well... they apparently stopped.

So I can understand why the staff is so "unmoving" on the "meta game".
There wasn't suppose to be three years worth of time for PCs to affect the outcome even as much as they have.
1.Armageddon was where it was suppose to be for the break between it and 2.Armageddon on or about the middle of 2007.
That means that any drastic changes made to 1.Arm could throw things so out of whack for 2.Arm.
That it would take even more rewriting of the "building" and documentation for 2.Arm.

For example. Say Basal was built right on top Luir's is now...  PCs start a plot that ends with the area surrounding Luir's for leagues around sunk over a mile keep into the ground.  Bataal, I am sure, would have an aneurysm and die.  That's an extreme case.

Apparently, due to them being referenced in several places around the known, Ghatti already exist or existed at some point in time in the known word.
Say someone finds and eradicates them.  There went years of work spent on them.

THE GAME WAS SUPPOSE TO BE OVER BY NOW.  The end was Prophesied and planned for and was suppose to have already happened... almost 20 IC years ago.
That means everyone is now playing by ear, and things are moving at the slowest pace imaginable, if at all towards the planned end.
There are some things that -can't- be changed at this point, and for logical reasons.

Lord of Charas, I am really sorry that staff ate your plot (if they did and that that wasn't just a ranting example).  But hey, what can we do but suck it up or give up, eh?



Me personally, I wish:
1)  The dragon had shown just up, destroyed Allanak, Tuluk, Luirs, Red Storm, Cenyr, Black Wing, and all the other Permanent settlements,
2)  The game closed for a month or so while the closed those zones off and rewrote some stuff
3)  We were all running around in the wild playing rangers, delves, raiders, and rouge magickers.  
4)  Open gith and mantis back up while you're at it, if the Dragon didn't wipe them out.
5)  Let's all fuck some shit up for a while.



But heh, I'm still a noob, and that was my two 'sids.

QuoteThis game was suppose to end on June 1st 2007.  heh, yeah, I know.
This means that the "end game" was planned to happen then.
That means that whatever end was planned had to be slowed to the point that well... they apparently stopped.

They decided to halt it because we (the players), would have simply
ended up taking the mantle of Beta testers, in an unfinished world.

The plan I assume they have now, is to bring Arm 2, to the level of
quality that is /above/ the current incarnation of Arm now presents.

This, is why I've been saying the new game will be taking so long to
complete. If Arm 1 took 15-16 years to get past this state of quality,
then Arm 2 may just take even longer, starting from scratch, with
a new code-base, and everything.

Who knows how long it could take ? The plans they have all seem
pretty damn ambitious . . . More than ambitious . . . Wild.

Some just blow my mind, especially the plans regarding economy.

Quote. . . to get past this state of quality,
then Arm 2 may just take even longer, starting from scratch, with
a new code-base, and everything.

I say past, because Arm has clearly left it's golden era,
an era I sorely wish I had taken part in.  :'( :'( :'(

Quote from: FantasyWriter on August 05, 2009, 03:45:15 AM

5)  Let's all fuck some shit up for a while.

Just my own personal *sigh* about the situation. From what I recall - The purpose of the present changes to the game were stated to accomplish the following: "The premise of Arm 2 is that it's a much more player driven world, which means creating the stories, making the changes and deciding the direction is done by players. This system is, in part, an experiment for us all to see how things might lean with players being the top dogs."

My question being - Why can't that experiment be now? Why the glass ceiling? Why not let clan pcs have authority over their own actions, make decisions which effect a broad range of other individuals, get to lead Merchant Houses, lead their own tribe, etc? It'd assume the same role of giving reports and the like, but would actually give them the authority to make the decisions somewhat on their own than worrying about a now invisible person looking over their shoulder. Sure, it'd be a lonely role - but there are already lonely roles in leadership. Sure, people might screw it up, they might make the wrong decision and send their organizations face first into the sand - but aren't these the type of risks that are supposedly going to be given to pcs in the new version of the game?

What's the worse that can happen? They're already ending the game.

Quote from: Decameron on August 05, 2009, 04:12:05 AM

Quote from: FantasyWriter on August 05, 2009, 03:45:15 AM

5)  Let's all fuck some shit up for a while.

Just my own personal *sigh* about the situation. From what I recall - The purpose of the present changes to the game were stated to accomplish the following: "The premise of Arm 2 is that it's a much more player driven world, which means creating the stories, making the changes and deciding the direction is done by players. This system is, in part, an experiment for us all to see how things might lean with players being the top dogs."

My question being - Why can't that experiment be now? Why the glass ceiling? Why not let clan pcs have authority over their own actions, make decisions which effect a broad range of other individuals, get to lead Merchant Houses, lead their own tribe, etc? It'd assume the same role of giving reports and the like, but would actually give them the authority to make the decisions somewhat on their own than worrying about a now invisible person looking over their shoulder. Sure, it'd be a lonely role - but there are already lonely roles in leadership. Sure, people might screw it up, they might make the wrong decision and send their organizations face first into the sand - but aren't these the type of risks that are supposedly going to be given to pcs in the new version of the game?

What's the worse that can happen? They're already ending the game.

I, like all people who have played (usually sponsored) leadership roles doubtless feel that there's simply not enough rewarding from one's superiors, the 'invisible person' as Dacameron put it. I don't mean to sound like a worrier, but it's like playing Call of Cthulu where the DM enjoys inflicting misery pertaining one's actions and withholding the gains.

If I am playing a role which staff chose me to play, as a favor for the enrichment of their clan/game, and I stick by it and pull out all the stops to achieve things, it'd be really nice to see some rewards from the invisible bosses, be it gifts, promotions or other good favors that show you're appreciated and doing fine work.

On promotions, I can't see the problem with rising. You'll always have bosses. If you're a Red Robe you're gonna have a Black Robe boss. If you're a Black Robe you're gonna have Tek as your boss. You'll never have superior power, if that's what the game's administrators worry about.

Edited, content no longer viable.

P.S.  Arm is fun.

I just ... don't feel it. I don't feel any of the experiences espoused by DustMight or Lord of Charas. Maybe it's because I play independants mostly and thus don't ever try to take an IG clan and move them in a hugely different direction than they were going before, but every interaction I've ever had with the staff seemed more in line with just making the game world come alive (sometimes for better, sometimes for worse) rather than actively picking a side and poking at the person on the other team. Even when the staff were helping to kill one of my PC's, it still didn't feel like anything personal, and the follow-up emails afterwards confirmed that for me.

From following this thread, I feel like the main gripe seems to be that things are less hack and slash now. For me that isn't a gripe though, it's a pro.

Also, and I don't mean to sound offensive but: When you decide to leave the game (or depart from anything really), trying to throw some blame and guilt around on your way out the door by offering up who's fault you think it is and what said other people did that was wrong ... is in bad taste, 100% of the time. Imagine leaving a job or sports group and shit talking people who are still in it (and still by and large liked/respected by the other members) on your way out. It's not usually going to endear your memory to the folks who are staying behind.

I'm getting really tired of people constantly going on about how the mud isn't how it used to be. I only began playing arm a year ago, so I'm not really sure how 'EPIC' it used to be, but the arm we have now is pretty great! and all the bitching going on will not make arm magically revert back to how it used to be, and at the end of the day, it's not the player's game, no matter how much you want it to be. So really, the staff can do whatever they want, you just have to roll with the punches.

Quote from: Jengal on August 05, 2009, 07:16:27 AM
at the end of the day, it's not the player's game, no matter how much you want it to be.

My only contribution to this thread is that this is kind of a dumb thing to say. What would a game be without players?

Quote from: Spice Spice Baby on August 05, 2009, 07:24:01 AM

Quote from: Jengal on August 05, 2009, 07:16:27 AM
at the end of the day, it's not the player's game, no matter how much you want it to be.

My only contribution to this thread is that this is kind of a dumb thing to say. What would a game be without players?

I meant that the players don't own the game, the play it.

They can make contributions, but they have no place in complaining moaning about it when it's rejected.

Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on August 05, 2009, 12:03:51 AM
Bynners don't even die for no good reason anymore! If you fight NPCs in an RPT, the imms put MERCY on those fuckers so that everyone makes it home safely.

Not true - some of my last few characters (some clanned, some not) died to some big nasty stuff (tm).

QuoteWhy has no one suicide bombed the Gaj lately?

Good question. Probably because the assassin's skillset was switched up a year or so back.

QuoteWhy is there not a Kadian walking up Caravan Road with a spice pipe hanging out of their mouth? Just because it's illegal doesn't mean it's illegal!

More bribes.

QuoteThe answer? WAR! Lets see Nak and Tuluk duke it out again soon! If I have to fly to an imm's house and force him, at gun point, to log in as Tek and do a:

Careful what you ask for.

Sounds like sour grapes to me. Maybe it was a perfectly awesome plotline Charas was stirring up, but he as doing it in such an ass-awful way, that the staff told him his -method- sucked and he had to change it, so he's having himself a hearty temper tantrum because mommy took away his Choo Choo.

At least that's how it sounds to me. I know if some major kick-ass world-changing "prepare for Armageddon.2" plotlines going on, and I don't see any of them being stopped. I just see things shifting around a bit as some PCs die and new PCs crop up and learn about them, and take an interest and get involved.

Like I said..things shift. People go on vacation. Charas throws a temper tantrum and takes his ball home. Staff rotates. Add all that up and you've got plotlines that sometimes have to simply sit until it can get moving again. That is the nature of muds that run 24/7 with players who are awake, and asleep, at varying hours of the day.

I moderated a post describing IC information in detail (very recent stuff, too).  Feel free to complain, but if it's about something recent, you should probably talk to your staff instead of venting on the GDB about it specifically.

I can't really go into much detail for IC reasons, but I'd like to throw my two 'sids in.

The metagame glass ceiling that Decameron mentioned and which I've heard many other players complain about is something that I've never really bumped up against. I've never played an uber-powerful character. I've had many a character's aspirations utterly squashed, though, but it was all clearly IC, whether by the staff's or other players' hands. I can recognize that some players of more powerful characters could feel stymmied by this glass ceiling of virtual authority, I guess. It just doesn't bug me as much, but I've never really had a pet plot, so I don't know. I do know that I'd never want to see a black robe templar PC, or a head-of-a-noble house PC. I know the structure probably feels stale to some of our veteran players, but I -thoroughly- enjoy playing in the system and to me, it's part of Arm's appeal.

Someone brought up the staff experimenting or whatever with giving PC leaders more reign in their clans, in preparation for the way 2.Arm will be. I am -definitely- seeing this in the clan I'm playing in. It feels -wide- open, almost too much so! Heh, it could be that my staffers are just good at hiding the puppet strings from me, or maybe we're just on the same wave-length and I'll be totally screwed during the next staff rotation.  :P Either way, from my point of view, the "big end of the world" plots may be slowing down, but the little stuff is fucking rocking. I'm having a great time. Then again, my eyes still hold the glimmer of a newblet, and I have yet to feel the inevitable jaded-ness whatsoever, so take it all as you will.

Oh, someone mentioned not getting enough reward-like things for playing a sponsored role well. Maybe you should just ask for something? Who knows what might happen if you ask politely? I don't think anyone on the staff wants you to be bored and unhappy, especially with a role you're playing to fill out the game world.

Hrm, I'm certainly sounding cheery and preachy right now. But who knows, maybe in six months it'll be -me- griping and wishing things would be how they were "back in the day"?

Quote
Bynners don't even die for no good reason anymore! If you fight NPCs in an RPT, the imms put MERCY on those fuckers so that everyone makes it home safely.

Heh, people don't always make it home safely. Byn or otherwise.

Quote
When's the last time you've seen metal on someone who WASN'T a Templar / immpet?

Why has Kurac not decided to take over the weapons/armor business, and thus declared all out war on Salarr? (Answer: Because you'd get force stored the moment you fired off the think.)

Where are the massive PC raider groups?

Why has no one suicide bombed the Gaj lately?

Why is there not a Kadian walking up Caravan Road with a spice pipe hanging out of their mouth? Just because it's illegal doesn't mean it's illegal!

I'm not even sure any of these or similar events should be happening on a regular basis anyway. A few of those things do happen rarely though, and I think that is sweet, because the rarity makes those events a lot more special.

Regarding PC leadership - I agree with Zoltan and that aspect of greater control is pretty visible.

Although, admittidly, I've only been playing since October, I've so far witnessed at least three big plotlines unfold, two my PC was involved in.

While I still have that J D newbie feeling of love and admiration for the world I play in, I've realaised from talking to older players, reading threads, so on and so forth, that theres a lot of Cox's in this game, Yes, bigger, more grand plotlines happened in the past, and yes, some of the older players want to have more, big, grand plotlines.

But fuck that. Sorry guys, Your RPing in a simulated world, and like this world, I do belive that Zalanthas would, indeed, have times of quiet, where there are few to no raidings on the highways, times of peace between warring nations, and times of few, if any, major heros, or heroines, as the case may be.

In the time I've been playing, I've seen major and minor code updates, which, in retrospect, have obviously taken a lot of time in planning. Take into consideration that the Imm's are trying to moderate this version of the game, build a new version, and still maintain some form of life outside of Arm, and thats a shitload of responsibility, and as far as I can see, you get two pages of bitching from jaded players who want more time from an already busy staff, who ask nothing in return, because you dont get a plotline for your pc approved?
Grow up. pick your rattle off the floor and stop throwing a tantrum, Yes, the documents state that the staff are here to facilitate your roleplaying experiance, but remember that they do it voluntarily. Did you ask why the plot wasnt approved before ranting on the GDB? did you try seeking an alternative to playing out this plotline? have you asked the Imm's if there is any other way to facilitate a similar plot?

I have aspirations for my PC, some plots which, yes, I may need inevitable assisstance from the I'mms later on down the road, but untill then, rather than ask them to help me drive a plot for me, I'd much rather go find ways IG of doing it. after all, this -is- a player driven game world, and yes, there may be a glass roof an the current version for whatever reason the Imm's see fit, but that dosen't mean that player driven plots cant happen with a little trying, IC and IG, or with a little back and forth with the Imm's.

Sorry to rant, but Its just the Staff don't really ask much, if anything from the playerbase, that often that I've seen, and yet I still see regular posts complaining, bitching, and general nit-picking about aspects of the game that seem to work fine from my perspective, but, as I said, I'm still a newb.

once again, Sorry to rant.

Kol.

EDIT TO ADD: Haven't slept for two days due to a really painful knee, so I'm not my usual chirpy self, otherwise, this post will have appeared less of a rant, and more than constructive critisism.

(/rant off)

Just like a soldier would never dare ask a Templar for a prezzie for all their hard work (like a 'Hey, Lord Templar, remember when I saved your life?' pin), neither would a Templar ask Mister Red Robe for something similar. You just wouldn't do it.

If my character wanted that pin badly enough, then yes, my character -would- ask the templar for the pin. And if I knew that templar was being played by a staff member and was an animated NPC, then yes, I would e-mail the staff and ask them for an RP-time to set it up.

ICly, in Zalanthas, don't expect handouts. In fact, SUSPECT handouts, because there's usually a hidden motive behind it. OOCly, if you need something from staff, then ask for it. If you don't get why they say no, ASK why. If you don't understand the reason, ASK for a better explanation. I'm sure I drive some of the staff batty when I do that. But fuck it. This is a game I play for my enjoyment and when something happens that makes me not enjoy, or detracts from my enjoyment, then I want an explanation. So that I can get -over- it and move on to more fun things. It's a matter of closure. The staff is awesome with helping me get over that bump. But, I think that's because I ASK for explanations instead of throwing hissy fits on the GDB when something is taken away.

Quote from: Lizzie on August 05, 2009, 08:40:00 AM
If my character wanted that pin badly enough, then yes, my character -would- ask the templar for the pin. And if I knew that templar was being played by a staff member and was an animated NPC, then yes, I would e-mail the staff and ask them for an RP-time to set it up.

ICly, in Zalanthas, don't expect handouts. In fact, SUSPECT handouts, because there's usually a hidden motive behind it. OOCly, if you need something from staff, then ask for it. If you don't get why they say no, ASK why. If you don't understand the reason, ASK for a better explanation. I'm sure I drive some of the staff batty when I do that. But fuck it. This is a game I play for my enjoyment and when something happens that makes me not enjoy, or detracts from my enjoyment, then I want an explanation. So that I can get -over- it and move on to more fun things. It's a matter of closure. The staff is awesome with helping me get over that bump. But, I think that's because I ASK for explanations instead of throwing hissy fits on the GDB when something is taken away.

Someone slighty more experianced, and cohherent than me, Thank you Lizzie.

Quote from: Lizzie on August 05, 2009, 08:40:00 AM
OOCly, if you need something from staff, then ask for it. If you don't get why they say no, ASK why. If you don't understand the reason, ASK for a better explanation.

For the record, and speaking only for myself, I don't mind this sort of thing at all and in fact prefer it. As has been said elsewhere, intent can be easily misconstrued in text, but I don't tend to take it badly if you're invested in a plot.

QuoteLike I said..things shift. People go on vacation. Charas throws a temper tantrum and takes his ball home. Staff rotates. Add all that up and you've got plotlines that sometimes have to simply sit until it can get moving again. That is the nature of muds that run 24/7 with players who are awake, and asleep, at varying hours of the day.

Mmm . . . the plot will go through . . . maybe in a couple years, maybe
virtually . . . who knows . . . but in all likeliness I'll probably have stopped
caring, by that time. Blah . . . No use waiting around like a moron for
nothing when I go spend my time on some actually worthwhile things.
Maybe you're right and I need to rethink it a bit, but I doubt it. I wrote
the whole damn proposal in story-format . . . shit. the plots been all layed
out for them. Now, I just need the tiniest, tiniest droplet of support,
and this thing might even make this version of the game. Shit. Who knows.

I tend not to stake too much belief in miracles, though. The imm's are
busy, let them do their shit. I need to move on with my life, there's better
things to do, than just wait on my ass.

QuoteOOCly, if you need something from staff, then ask for it. If you don't get why they say no, ASK why. If you don't understand the reason, ASK for a better explanation.

Did all this. I've been waiting a few days now, for some basic word back.
Why should there be any ? Why should I expect there to be any ? There
won't be any, 'cuz I suspect this guy is a special breed of hardass who
wouldn't sending back if some basic, level-headed inquiry of mine started
to tickle at his annoyance factor. Maybe he just thinks that his vague-ass
explanations are answers enough. Personally, they don't tell me nothin',
I just see them as more archiac, cock-blocking policies; bogus informations
that tell me nothing, that might as well be written in another language.

QuoteFor the record, and speaking only for myself, I don't mind this sort of thing at all and in fact prefer it. As has been said elsewhere, intent can be easily misconstrued in text, but I don't tend to take it badly if you're invested in a plot.

Hah. I wish all imm's were this level-headed. A few end-world agenda's
might actually /get/ somewhere.

Don't worry about the end of the world until... well. Until the world is ending.

You'll feel a lot better about it.

Quote from: Cutthroat on August 05, 2009, 09:16:58 AM
Don't worry about the end of the world until... well. Until the world is ending.

LordofCharas, I just e-mailed you to that effect.  I'd recommend waiting more than two days for response from e-mails; it generally helps to not look impatient about things that are not time-sensitive.

Dustmight, I'm e-mailing you about something too, since I think you read too much into my response earlier.

Quote. . . the world is ending.

Yeah, it is.

Right now.

Like Fantasywriter said, it should have by all
rights ended 2 years ago. But I'll laugh it's
another 6.

It should have.  We adjusted the timeline because we wanted to have a better Armageddon Reborn.  We'll let you know when it's finished, I promise.  In the meantime, we have a fully dedicated staff on Armageddon, working on plots, new code, etc.

Sure, the gameworld is in the process of ending.  It doesn't mean that it's in such shambles right now that you are neck-deep in game-altering end-of-the-world plots.  (Maybe ankle-deep.) 

Guessing at how the world is going to end is fun, but there's a lot more to everything than meets the eye.

Ive waited over two weeks to recive a response from staff before LoC, paitaince -is- a virtue.

Also, as far as complaining about a staff members response to your inquiry, and you -not- being able to understand the replys, I belive, if you e-mailed the staff member in question, with a CC to the mud account too, requesting that the matter be handled by another staff member, explaining in a clear, precise, language, that you did not understand the reply at all, and if at all possible, could it be eleaborated on, you may recive better response, and attitude from staff members in general.

Think about it this way, if I asked you for something, you said no, we had a cuple e-mails back and forth about the situation, and you explained in your infinate wisdom to the best of your abilities, why and how the request I made of you was improbbable, if not impossable, and I still didn't understand,

would you feel terribly happy if I came to the GDB flaming your responses, calling you a hard-ass, and saying your responses were vauge?

I know I wouldn't, I freely admit that even at the best of times, I'm a little hard to understand, or even comprehend, but I know people who can understand me and the points I -try- and make, and can explain them better than I could.

Hell, Spawnlooser showed this in a recent thread about Skill counters, the complete control method for Arm 2.0.

Theres -always- someone who can explain why, how, where, when or what better to you than another person.

Also: Don't worry about the end of the world until... well. Until the world is ending.
 ;D
Regards, Kol

The only word of advice or thing I can contribute to this thread is:

If you're looking for a game/source of entertainment that provides "quick" or consistent replies to your requests and/or plot lines, to the positive or negative..this might not be the game you're looking for, for all it's awesomeness.  It's Staffed by volunteers that try to be as professional in their activities as they can, while still holding to the right for entertainment that's theirs as much as it is ours.  Is there a responsibility between a Staff member and those players that are involved in the clan/plot they oversee?  Yes, but you also need to remember that this is a game.  It is not a business, you have not bought into a right to have certain things done for you, people take vacations, change their ides and so on and so forth.  If you think differently, I'm afraid you've now run up against the hard wall of reality.

I understand your frustration.  I've a couple plot lines I'm involved in that while not explicitly linked to "end of the world" or "world shaking" events, they have that feel that they could be, or have the potential to branch into them.  They've been sat on for months upon months.  Why?  Staff rotation, player drift/burn out, RL concerns, the PCs outside of my clan that were involved in it ended up becoming scrab bait, IC events screwed over parts of it, etc.  "Shit happens" as the bumper sticker says.  Why and how do I "put up" with this?  I love the game.  I love the amount of things I'm able to influence and affect, which is far, far more than anything else I've ever encountered in a MUD.

That might also be part of the difficulty you're experiencing.  This game offers far more opportunities to change a living, breathing created world than any other MUD I've run into or heard about.  Our enthusiasm for such, though, often outstrips the hard reality of the situation, which is exactly that:  It's a game.  Staffed and run by volunteers.  Awesome ones, surely, but still human, still fallible, with human limitations and limitations of being a non-funded hobby with a limited number of participants.

Welcome to Armageddon.  We do hope you have fun, but do try to recognize that so is everyone else.  If you're not having fun, don't play.  It's as simple as that, and it applies to everyone.  Staff included.

Unless 2.Arm brings really dramatic breakthroughs in game design, the glass ceiling and walls are always going to be a problem to players in high-powered roles.

Heh, if I had a nickle for everytime Nyr and I misconstrued one another's meaning via email ...

Quote from: musashi on August 05, 2009, 09:58:21 AM
Heh, if I had a nickle for everytime Nyr and I misconstrued one another's meaning via email ...

If you think that's bad...

I've had 6 staff rotations with the clan I'm in now. I've had 2 characters, whose PC-lifespans combined, are 3 times as long as the duration of any given staff member to run that particular clan.

EVERY time there's a new staff member, I butt heads with them. Every damned fucking time. And every time, I get over it. In my case, it's the staffer who's the noob, and I'm the frustrated veteran asking "Dear Imm: What the fuck were you thinking?"

And then they answer, and I get over it, and everything goes back to being fun again. I don't always like the results of the back and forth. But such is the nature of staff rotations. I don't like having staff rotations. On the other hand, I would hate to be stuck in a clan who had a really piss-poor IMM, and no hope that they'd rotate out and I'd get a good one after that. Or be in a clan who has such an awesome IMM, that the IMM ends up quitting because of the flame-wars on the GDB about how my clan gets favors and theirs doesn't.

So I can understand the need for clan rotations. I don't like them. But I live with it. Plus it reminds me that I need to be more patient with the Noob-Imms who have never had to deal with my admittedly weird weekly updates :)

Quote from: Decameron on August 05, 2009, 04:12:05 AM
Why the glass ceiling?

There's the metaphor I was looking for. :D

This thread is venomous and bad for Armageddon (by in large).
Edit to clarify:  It's just kind of a big downer, and any newbies reading this thread (myself included) are liable to be discouraged.  Why -bother- with Arm.. it's glory days are done.    *sigh*

I don't think so, really. I do think that the players who feel so hateful about the process are out of hand, but there are good points in this thread. I think that it's just another discussion where some player lament and others console, and it's just what it'll always be. Somebody is always upset at the establishment.

Without going into any more detail than necessary, I've seen lately that those character who have the power and should be able to do what they want to ICly can.
My particular staff group could be the exception, but I haven't been shot down on any of the plots I've aimed for.

They've been pretty much "Sure, let us know what you need from us when the time comes," and pretty much left the rest up to me.  In my opinion, it couldn't get any better than that.  The only thing I see different between now and what the "old folks" are talking about is that you're expected to do more work on your own behalf rather than have power just handed to you (like the maxed warrior/ranger gith chieftain example).

Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on August 05, 2009, 01:03:05 PM
I think that it's just another discussion where some player lament and others console, and it's just what it'll always be.

Nessalin told me Arm2.0 is coming out for Xbox 360 before PC...Im just sayin'....

Anyways, The Glass Ceiling does exists. If you try to get through it, you end up dead or stored.
Imms -are- fair regardless of what many of you may think. Although I may not, and you may not
agree with every decision they make, you have to trust that they are making the best IC or NON-IC
decision for the game.

As Far as the Arm BA goes. It is true. I agree the game is too small for two cities, however, if you want
a war, I am 100% positive you could start one. The problem however, is that the IMMs, to "better balance"
the game have made it so some things are not-inexcuseable as they used to be. Is this bad? No, because
the things they do are direct results of IC reasons. Just because you can raid 100 pcs and get away
does not mean Tektolnes, Muk, a Red Robe, a Fluffy white robed tree hugging lirathan, or the Bad-ass
Bruce-lee Jihaens NPCS, and VNPCS will not take notice.

In short. It is more realistic. Has it taken away from the general playability and what some people
consider fun? That depends on what side of the fence you are on.

Anyhow, Much love to you all.

Except Mansa.

Honestly I think there's only two real problems with the staff right now. Neither of them are particularly serious, malicious, or really things that can be fixed A lack of time and an abundance of caution. We all know that staff are volunteers, have other clans and also have mortal accounts and real lives. So they can't focus as much attention on the game as some high-playtime players would like. I've had a great experience with my current clan and I've never butted heads with my staff, but things are a bit slow. Which is totally fine. We also all know that staff have to enforce realism and keep PCs from going mad with power. They also have to fend off jealousy and claims of favoritism and corruption. So naturally they have to squash some plots, curtail things and keep themselves from affecting the gameworld enough to upset people.

The only problems I've ever experienced with staff are when both of those converge -- when a staffer doesn't have the time to start up things themselves and are quick to keep PCs from doing things on their own. To give a completely fictitious example... maybe a staffer tells a noble PC that his project is too ambitious for his rank, but then doesn't really offer much help or staff support for a different project because of a lack of time?

Does this make any sense? Its not something I've really experienced a whole lot of myself, but I've seen a lot of leadership PCs where it seems like that's what's going on. I've seen one or two RPTs collapse because of a lack of staff support.

I didn't read anything but the first post.  All I have to say is this:

You obviously haven't met Shalooonsh.

Quote from: spawnloser on August 05, 2009, 02:04:14 PM
I didn't read anything but the first post.  All I have to say is this:

You obviously haven't met Shalooonsh.

I was about to say that another reason staff has to be careful about pushing forward plots and generally be awesome is because they run the risk of becoming 'the popular' staffer and making everybody else look bad. i.e. Shalooonsh. I've seen dozens of "who's your favorite staff?" thread and everybody answers Shalooonsh and then it gets shut down.

jcjules, I see, and have experienced some of what you've expressed. It -can- be frustrating. But if you stick it out long enough, eventually..things will turn around. Maybe not with -that- plotline. But. I'm one of those people who tend to have long-lived PCs. I'm definitely not the only one and my PC is -definitely- not as long lived as some who are still around now. Not even close. But I think 9 months is long enough for me to qualify as someone who has a clue about frustrations, and getting past them.

I get pissy about one plotline not going my way..or being rejected on an idea..and then I get so busy with the RP of things, that the plotline or idea doesn't get forgotten, exactly, but it just kinda shifts to a different section of my brain. By the time I get back to it, there's more "stuff" I'm able to do with it. And then it gets exciting again. And then I get turned down, or the staff tosses a roadblock in my direction, and I get frustrated again. I forget about the frustration quickly because of the OTHER things going on in the game. In the meantime, that plotline either stays on hold, or someone else is already running with it their own way..or the PCs involved die and the plotline dies with them. And then a new one comes along.

I'd say I *think* about retiring my character every other week. For..a couple of hours. It's just the nature of having a long-lived PC and I -know- it has little to do with the staff's treatment of me or my characters.

The "glory days" of Armageddon are a complete matter of perception, and often have as much to do with you and where you are in your life as it has to do with the state of the game.  In the same way that many of us recall certain genres of music, time periods, video game systems, or memories from our youth, Armageddon is something that means something different to all of us.

I began Armageddon in 1991, when some of you probably weren't even in Kindergarten.  If I look back and try to remember the "glory days" of Armageddon, I find myself gravitating toward those times when I had the unique combination of a good character concept, lots of free time, and a good group of supporting roles that happened to share those qualities playing in my general area.  Having the luxury of an elongated perspective, I've been able to see this cycle repeat a few times, separated by several years.  What I've learned is that my enjoyment of Armageddon is not directly linked to any one set of policies, group of people, or set of code.

My enjoyment of Armageddon is linked to myself, and to that collection of variables that slowly ebb and flow.  What served as an important realization to me was that Armageddon had outlasted nearly every other game I'd ever enjoyed throughout my life.  With the exception of a few board games or sports, few could match its longevity and absolutely none could match the frequency with which I had fun playing the game.  There have been groups of weeks, months, and even years, where I have either not been willing or able to play the game, but it's one of the few unique experiences I've encountered in my life thus far.

Armageddon isn't a single roller coaster to be ridden hard and fast, it's an entire theme park to be savored and enjoyed.  If you feel that the coasters aren't going as fast as they used to, don't flip as hard as they did, or aren't as frightening as you remember -- wander around the park a bit and try something new.

You may just learn something new -- about the game, and about yourself.

-LoD

Quote from: LoD on August 05, 2009, 02:50:58 PM
Armageddon isn't a single roller coaster to be ridden hard and fast, it's an entire theme park to be savored and enjoyed.  If you feel that the coasters aren't going as fast as they used to, don't flip as hard as they did, or aren't as frightening as you remember -- wander around the park a bit and try something new.

You may just learn something new -- about the game, and about yourself.

-LoD

I wish that was short enough to sig.
Well said, LoD, well said.

I think LoD stated exactly what I was thinking. 

Having been through some of the 'glory days' as one of those characters that made some lasting impacts on the world we all play in now, I can -honestly- say that this game is just as interesting now as it was then, though sometimes different.  It is intensely personal and exactly what you make of it!

For any new players that may become discouraged by some of the negative tones, remember there are probably just as many of us who have played off an on for 12+ years that feel this is still the best role playing we have ever had and look forward to another 12 years, especially when it becomes new once more with Arm2's release (first to the XBOX 360 then to the PC!).

-Jestor

Here's your sig for you, shortened FW:

LOD:

Quotea single roller coaster to be ridden hard and fast...an entire theme park to be savored and enjoyed.

You're welcome.

The glass ceiling was built in Cenyr. I say we all ride/run our asses out there and lay siege to that den of evil-doers. Down with Cenyr!

Quote from: Lizzie on August 05, 2009, 02:35:40 PM
jcjules, I see, and have experienced some of what you've expressed. It -can- be frustrating. But if you stick it out long enough, eventually..things will turn around. Maybe not with -that- plotline. But. I'm one of those people who tend to have long-lived PCs. I'm definitely not the only one and my PC is -definitely- not as long lived as some who are still around now. Not even close. But I think 9 months is long enough for me to qualify as someone who has a clue about frustrations, and getting past them.

I'm not exceptionally frustrated with anything. But I was pointing out that I haveseen the problems that others have described. I haven't played many leadership roles, being relatively new, but I've seen others struggle with them, and its not hard to figure out why. Overall I still think the staff do a great job and that the onus is primarily on players to make their own fun. But its not perfect.

(Peronal opinion)

This era of staffing policy is probably one of the best times for players leading plots and doing awesome stuff since I started playing almost a decade ago. Sometimes I find myself wondering why players are not walking through all these open doors, and exploring all the avenues available to them, and doing all the totally awesome wicked stuff that they are capable of doing. Then I realize it is likely because our current policy is to not nudge. We do not lead plotlines. This might be part of the reason why submitting an entire plotline in story format (I am not privy to the details at all) is going to end in a turn-down. Our role as staff is to make sure the world reacts appropriately to player actions. This is not the staff's game, it is not the player's game, it is our game.

There are no PC raider groups because nobody has started them.

Nobody has tried to blow up the Gaj because nobody has tried to blow up the Gaj.

Kurac has not taken over Salarr because Kurac has not taken over Salarr, not because some immortals said no, but in the ficticious scenario I am talking about right now, the staff have put up the appropriate hurdles (better term than road-blocks) that realistically a PC would face when trying to convince their Great Merchant House to take over another Great Merchant House with whom they have had long-standing (multiple generations) trade deals and alliances with.

I don't say no to plots. I might say that your superiors do not support certain actions, but that is entirely different than saying no to a plot. You can piss off your superiors. Immortals don't mind if you act against your superior's wishes. Yes, your superiors will come down against you. But if it is a direction it makes sense for your character to go, we will respect that.

So when reading this thread, take away two things. Everything LoD said, and this:

Be the change you want to see in Armageddon. That "glass ceiling" is really, really, really high. Much higher than you would expect. You can absolutely change the world. Just do it. The change will not occur overnight.

I love that ... two things to take away from this thread: Everything LoD said and ...

100% in agreement with Olgaris' opinion. It doesn't stop me from being frustrated, and feeling like my uber takeover the world plot is being rejected. But like I said, it's not hard -at all- to get over that feeling, move on to something else, and return to that world take-over plot next week when something new and interesting has developed to move things along.

Sometimes, we players NEED more than a nudge. Sometimes, we're being absent-minded and not noticing clues, and need that club over the head that says, "Yes you twinky player, we WANT you to take over the world. But those ninja pirate zombie robots who you have only barely even heard exist, are doing something, that you need to know about first. You need to hire more minions and send THEM out to bring you this information! So - hire more minions, doofus, and stop bitching that you can't get your shit done."

Sometimes - we need to hear that.

Quote from: Lizzie on August 05, 2009, 03:38:35 PM
"Yes you twinky player, we WANT you to take over the world. But those ninja pirate zombie robots who you have only barely even heard exist, are doing something, that you need to know about first. You need to hire more minions and send THEM out to bring you this information! So - hire more minions, doofus, and stop bitching that you can't get your shit done."

Consider it said.

Quote from: brytta.leofa on August 05, 2009, 09:51:15 AM
Unless 2.Arm brings really dramatic breakthroughs in game design, the glass ceiling and walls are always going to be a problem to players in high-powered roles.

Give the man a prize.

There's a reason why most pen-and-paper RPGs focus on small-time adventurers, and come to a close when players reach 'epic' levels. When a single player can change the whole world, the administrative upkeep becomes intense.

Players in sponsored roles should be aware that they aren't going to be able to trot around building cities, inventing firearms, starting the Rennaissance, or whatever. The bigger your actions the more likely they simply won't be feasible to implement, and that's not because staff hates you or because they don't care.

If anything, Armageddon has put more of its focus on 'the small guy' in order to maintain a high degree of immersion and roleplaying quality. If you don't want to hit the glass ceiling, start as a Normal Dude, rather than hopping up to the top of the ladder with a sponsored role. The only PC I can think of in recent memory who hit 'the glass ceiling' literally won at an entire city and became a famous nobleman, and it's not like that happens often. Be realistic about the scope of your plans.

I came over from a light-RP mud in which PCs did frequently rise to the level of princes, kings, guildmasters, etc. It was horrible. The 'glass ceiling' is a fact of life in roleplaying games, and when the needs of players start to exceed the capacity of gamemasters, the whole deal starts to suffer. I love Armageddon because, while it does have the infrequent 'epic role' going on, most people are playing smelly miners who often don't get up to much at all. Different strokes for different folks, maybe, but I'd like to think I get what makes a good roleplaying game.

I agree with what Lizzie said. I think everyone would benefit from more staff feedback. Not staff started plots, but feedback. Such as, "Thanks for the report! Your superiors are pleased that the caravan was profitable and they recommend buying xyz next time and perhaps trading with x tribe." Instead of, "Thanks for the Report," or nothing.

Quote from: Lizzie on August 05, 2009, 03:38:35 PM
Sometimes, we players NEED more than a nudge. Sometimes, we're being absent-minded and not noticing clues, and need that club over the head...

Personal staffing philosophy:

When this happens, email your staff. I won't go so far as to say that everyone will be tripping over themselves to give you a hint, but I can say that I, personally, am more than happy to brainstorm with you^* in those situations where you want to make something move forward but just can't see how.

^* When "you" happen to be in clans that I staff. I won't poach.

I get the staff feedback, I just get obtuse sometimes and need something more specific than "Your superiors feel that the enemy is too strong for you to take down right now." I know that doesn't mean I can't take them down anyway, or try. But, if my "superiors" know of a way I -could- weaken them..seeing as how they're superior and all :) Well - I could use a clue.

As for Olgaris, he's just being mean to me. I'm not a doofus. And no one is good enough to be my minion!

Quote from: jcljules on August 05, 2009, 03:57:18 PM
I agree with what Lizzie said. I think everyone would benefit from more staff feedback. Not staff started plots, but feedback. Such as, "Thanks for the report! Your superiors are pleased that the caravan was profitable and they recommend buying xyz next time and perhaps trading with x tribe." Instead of, "Thanks for the Report," or nothing.

With the specific example, we would never give such advice. While it might make sense for your superiors to tell you how to make a bit more coin (for example) it is unfair when it is staff telling you how to make more coin. Also if we told you to try trade with x tribe and it worked out great, it is unfair to players who don't have staff coaching them, and if it worked out poorly, players could get pissed off that they were set up for failure.

I second Oleupata's sentiment. If you want advice, ask for it. But it is not our role to give you unsolicited advice on what goals to pursue. Used to be. Made people angry. It was the old cry of you can't get involved in anything unless you are a staff pet. Now YOU (plural) make things happen.

I get a lot of reports that don't seem to ask any questions, they are just telling me stuff that went on. I appreciate them (I don't get to watch as often as I would like) and always send thanks. If you have questions or want nudges, ask ask ask. If it is something along the lines of "do you think it is a good idea to attack x?" then we won't be able to answer, but if you ask "I want to attack X, what do I need to do to make this happen properly?" then the answer will probably be along the lines of: Get your crew together, give me a date, let me know your plan in advance. Then the world can react.

Word.

Addenum:

Your superiors might not want you to succeed. You would then be a challenge to their power. Remember: Murder, Betrayal, Corruption.

Olgsaris....

I want to attack X, what do I need to do to make this happen properly?

;D

Quote from: Olgaris on August 05, 2009, 03:28:57 PMThis era of staffing policy is probably one of the best times for players leading plots and doing awesome stuff since I started playing almost a decade ago. Sometimes I find myself wondering why players are not walking through all these open doors, and exploring all the avenues available to them, and doing all the totally awesome wicked stuff that they are capable of doing.

I think part of the answer is that players became accustomed to certain doors being closed, previously. Or at least, had that perception. Personally, it took some time after the policy change for me to realize some of the new opportunities afforded to us.

There are some aspects of the policy change I dislike (or at least, hope will evolve as we all get used to it), but the new doors opened up is a definite plus.

Quote from: FantasyWriter on August 05, 2009, 03:45:15 AM

Me personally, I wish:
1)  The dragon had shown just up, destroyed Allanak, Tuluk, Luirs, Red Storm, Cenyr, Black Wing, and all the other Permanent settlements,
2)  The game closed for a month or so while the closed those zones off and rewrote some stuff
3)  We were all running around in the wild playing rangers, delves, raiders, and rouge magickers.  
4)  Open gith and mantis back up while you're at it, if the Dragon didn't wipe them out.
5)  Let's all fuck some shit up for a while.

I'm so down with that.

Quote from: Olgaris on August 05, 2009, 04:08:52 PM
With the specific example, we would never give such advice. While it might make sense for your superiors to tell you how to make a bit more coin (for example) it is unfair when it is staff telling you how to make more coin. Also if we told you to try trade with x tribe and it worked out great, it is unfair to players who don't have staff coaching them, and if it worked out poorly, players could get pissed off that they were set up for failure.

I second Oleupata's sentiment. If you want advice, ask for it. But it is not our role to give you unsolicited advice on what goals to pursue. Used to be. Made people angry. It was the old cry of you can't get involved in anything unless you are a staff pet. Now YOU (plural) make things happen.

I get a lot of reports that don't seem to ask any questions, they are just telling me stuff that went on. I appreciate them (I don't get to watch as often as I would like) and always send thanks. If you have questions or want nudges, ask ask ask. If it is something along the lines of "do you think it is a good idea to attack x?" then we won't be able to answer, but if you ask "I want to attack X, what do I need to do to make this happen properly?" then the answer will probably be along the lines of: Get your crew together, give me a date, let me know your plan in advance. Then the world can react.

Word.

I've never really thought about it this way. And I understand what you mean about 'staff coaching,' being unfair. And I don't really expect staff to tell me what to do, or coach me, or start plots for me... I can start things myself. I have my own ideas. But I have felt in some roles -- mostly ones I have observed rather than experienced myself -- as if there is no IC feedback. There is a lack of IC pats on the back for success and reproaches/punishments for failure. Is it alright to ask how your PCs clan superiors/colleagues feel about their actions? Sometimes it just feels as if you're reporting to a brick wall of emotionless, nameless superiors, instead of a living breathing clan of people who may have particular biases for or against your PC. But I agree with what you're saying. Its mostly the fault of players for never really asking.

Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to throw any blame around for any kind of malaise which may or may not be going on. I'm just trying to give the readers of this thread The Nudge.

Part of the recent (few months old... 6-8?) shift of how we staff the game is that we decided not to play the superiors anymore. Instead reports are taken by e-mail and we focus on bringing things to life at the same level or below the PCs. As mentioned somewhere else this is a bit of an experiment to see how it will work in Arm 2.0. Perhaps this is something we could improve upon, so that there is some form of middle ground. I do recall enjoying being terribly scared of Senior Nobles of Red Robes when reporting to them, and you could get a bit more of a sense of how they felt about you. Or at least that they felt SOMETHING about you.

We are still learning, and always will be. I do think that there is a solid improvement from the old way to the new way, but perhaps bits of the old way should be carried over rather than abandoned. I get the impression that nobles are a bit less fun now, but that lowbies have a lot more potential. Time will tell. Thankfully the majority of the posters in this thread have been interested in collaboration and working toward improvement, rather than plain griping.

Quote from: jcljules on August 05, 2009, 02:34:54 PM

Quote from: spawnloser on August 05, 2009, 02:04:14 PM
I didn't read anything but the first post.  All I have to say is this:

You obviously haven't met Shalooonsh.

I was about to say that another reason staff has to be careful about pushing forward plots and generally be awesome is because they run the risk of becoming 'the popular' staffer and making everybody else look bad. i.e. Shalooonsh. I've seen dozens of "who's your favorite staff?" thread and everybody answers Shalooonsh and then it gets shut down.

What I said was primarily a direct response to this:

Quote from: DustMight on August 04, 2009, 05:00:38 PMAt least, when Armageddon had the hard-nosed Immortal rep the game rocked very hard.  Now - it's like an old man sighing on his deathbed.

All of the staff are awesome.  I've had plenty of interaction with Senga and Olgaris with recent characters and they're awesome.  I have no favorite staff, but of all the staff I know and have interacted with, Shalooonsh epitomizes the exact OPPOSITE of what DustMight said.  What I said was not intended as favoring one staff member or as a slight against any other staff members.

In summation, I think the game's just as good as it has been since it stopped being a H&S stupid-fest.

jcjules wrote:

QuoteSometimes it just feels as if you're reporting to a brick wall of emotionless, nameless superiors, instead of a living breathing clan of people who may have particular biases for or against your PC.

This is precisely why I was disappointed with the change in policy regarding clan superior NPCs vs. OOC e-mailed reports. I'm still disappointed with it. I would -much- prefer giving weekly reports as usual (as I had previously), and having one 1-hour one-on-one with my clan superior NPC every week, or even a 1.5 hour one-on-one every other week.

I can't see my NPC superior's smile, or warm tone, or scolding waggling finger, in an e-mail. I can't sense the emotions coming through. It's just very sterile now. I *appreciate* the staff's correspondence and communication. I'm GLAD for it. But..I'd still rather trade half of it for an hour a week in-game. Let me e-mail my character's activities, and have an NPC touch base to respond to some of it..to talk things out with my PC's superior, have an actual conversation rather than passing e-mails back and forth that end up with 6 different staffers (clan staff and game admin) all having to watch the whole thing repeated over and over again (since the staff always includes the previous part of the conversation with every response)...multiply that times every single player who has the responsibility of sending in weekly reports, who need responses...and who have questions about those responses..that's such a mess, such an inefficient system!

Instead, why not just..let me send the report. Respond to it. If I still have questions, then bring in an NPC to have a -conversation- about it in the game. Log that conversation and forward it to the clan staff and mud admin, and boom - you got yourself a happy player, a streamlined system, a smaller e-mail box, and some fun RP that doesn't take up MORE time than it does to keep sending e-mails back and forth.

Quote from: Lizzie on August 05, 2009, 04:57:13 PM
I can't see my NPC superior's smile, or warm tone, or scolding waggling finger, in an e-mail. I can't sense the emotions coming through. It's just very sterile now.

Yes, this is exactly what I meant.

It wouldn't even have to be done through animation. Specific superiors could be described in an email. And it wouldn't have to be superiors only.

"Lieutenant Stobax doesn't seem very happy with your latest contract. A lot of the Runners have been grumbling about your performance behind your back."

Or...

"Some Junior Merchants in another division have been making much more than you, and seem like they might be favored for a promotion."

Adhira did something like this in response to one of my reports a few PCs ago. I thought it was awesomely refreshing to get a feeling for how the rest of the clan felt about my PCs actions.

Quote from: Olgaris on August 05, 2009, 04:56:08 PM
I do recall enjoying being terribly scared of Senior Nobles of Red Robes when reporting to them, and you could get a bit more of a sense of how they felt about you. Or at least that they felt SOMETHING about you.

Yes, yes, exactly what I mean.

I would have to say that I agree.  I have no idea how my leader NPCs feel about my character or his accomplishments/failures. 

I am also torn by the fact that I enjoy the idea of PCs being more in charge of running things than they were in recent history and less reliant on "asking" permission to do things.

Although, I would probably hate having a weekly IC meeting with them, I wouldn't mind being called in their office about once a RL month and bitched out/praised.  They current situation makes it seem like your house/tribe/organization (not their staff mind you) doesn't care what you do, since you are never chastised or rewarded.

Personally, I don't take the challenges of leadership, and I really don't wish to. Never played a noble or templar.

I guess my only opinions on the subject are formed through observation of the leaders I see and talk to.

If the glass ceiling were really so high, and the power so firmly in the players hands, why is there such a trend of people in Noble / Templar positions coming out of it saying, "I'll never try to deal with them again!" Why is it that most of the players who leave the mud entirely do so after they've been in these roles?

I mean, I don't have the answer, but this is my observation from the outside perspective. From my personal, formidable, experience of self-perception/denial I could definately see the Immortals being far less accommodating than they think they are.

You can't please all of the people all of the time.

It comes down to what players want from the game.

That old mud personality test is applicable. Explorer/Achiever/Socializer/Killer.

The game is fine as it is for Socializers and Killers.

Exploration can only last so long. Nothing to be done there, really.

If you're an Achiever, you're screwed. You're just not going to be able to build, or change the world now. Titles are granted, not earned. Accumulated wealth means little when it can't buy property. Even highly skilled characters are nothing more than pawns.

e.g.:
"There will be no new building".
"There will be no new clans".
"The magick system will not be changed".

A lot of the frustration being aired here is of a thwarted Achievement sort. But the player base has generally changed itself to be mostly Social/Killer, because that is what is offered, and a lot of Achievers silently leave when they can't find what they're looking for.

If Achievers can't find what they are looking for, then I would suggest they try looking for something other than whatever they can't find. There is -plenty- to achieve, and I would argue with every point you have made, Salt Merchant.

If you're an Achiever, you're screwed. Not true.
You're just not going to be able to build, or change the world now. Not true.
Titles are granted, not earned. Not true.
Accumulated wealth means little when it can't buy property. Not true.
Even highly skilled characters are nothing more than pawns. Not true.

I am -playing- the proof that everything you've said so far is not true. I am not, however, strictly an Achiever player. I'm a combination of Achiever/Socializer.

If you are incapable of being anything -other- than 100% Achiever, if you are incapable of adding a few socialization skills, or tossing in the occasional PK, or taking a walk once in awhile to examine the other side of town, then you shouldn't be playing an RPI in the first place, let alone Armageddon. RPIs exist for people who are capable and interested in making use of all personality types. If it was strictly socialization, it'd be a mush. If it was strictly PK, it'd be Midgaard. If it was strictly for achievers, it'd have visible character and skill levels. If it was strictly explorer, there would be no mobs.

I get frustrated, everyone in leadership positions gets frustrated. I don't believe in the glass ceiling though. I believe that my character -could- potentially change the game world. I just don't have the foggiest idea how. I'm working on it though. And I'm patient. And I don't expect it to be given to me, for all the whining I do about needing a nudge.

Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on August 05, 2009, 05:32:50 PM
If the glass ceiling were really so high, and the power so firmly in the players hands, why is there such a trend of people in Noble / Templar positions coming out of it saying, "I'll never try to deal with them again!" Why is it that most of the players who leave the mud entirely do so after they've been in these roles?

I mean, I don't have the answer, but this is my observation from the outside perspective. From my personal, formidable, experience of self-perception/denial I could definately see the Immortals being far less accommodating than they think they are.

Though I'm not privy to what exchanges between these players, nor to any specific instances where this has occurred, my guess would be that special application roles like GMH family, nobles, and templars provide a unique mixture of power and control.  These roles are considered to be highly influential, and to have access to wealth, power, and position that would either be impossible or improbable for unaffiliated characters to attain. 

What ensues is an oftentimes difficult and frustrating period during which the player probes their environment to determine exactly what their boundaries are, and the only way to do that is to press upon the edges until something, or someone, presses back.  By the time many of these roles have determined exactly where they fit into the mold, both the player and the staff have done a fair amount of pushing both ways, which may or may not have negatively influenced their relationship -- much of this will depend upon the dynamic of the individuals involved.

Player-Side

I imagine players thinking, "Why did I accept this position of power and leadership if I'm not allowed to actually DO anything?".  This perception can come as the result of a several different encounters:

> Sometimes there is a misconception of what a sponsored role can actually do (i.e. I always thought a templar's word was law, and they could kill a PC simply for looking at them wrong.), and the reality of the policies governing these positions end up making a player feel that they are being held back, unjustly limited, or being unfairly criticized.

> Players sometimes have "big plans" for what they want to achieve, and often try to accomplish too much too quickly, only to feel that "someone" is against them when they encounter resistance.

> Players are sometimes pressured by outside forces (e.g. other players, other organizations) to accomplish something that they feel should be achievable, only to be met with resistance and further feel that they while they embody a supposedly powerful position, they feel as if they can't meet the demands of their station.

Staff-Side

I imagine staff members thinking, "Why did I bring this player on board if he/she is going to completely ignore the documentation and take offense at my subtle nudges to tell them which direction to go."

> Staff likely receive plenty of emails from players who suffer beneath the hand of a sponsored role, complaining about their decisions, their actions, their habits, and their conduct.  Trying to rectify legitimate issues with the player while simultaneously doing something else can probably send mixed messages or seem like they're constantly nit-picking.

> Staff have a broader view of the "big picture" and often lose their narrow lens, which makes it difficult for them to see life through the same tunnel through which their player is looking.  They may have a completely legitimate and IC reason for refusing the request of a sponsored PC, but cannot convey to them the details surrounding that reason because of the IC nature of that knowledge.  This can sometimes cause a negative response to appear unjustified or arbitrary.

Combine all of these issues from both sides of the fence, and I can see how some relationships can break down and people can choose to leave the game.  It's especially sad because both parties involved are usually trying to be accommodating, fair, and smart about their interactions with one another.

My only suggestion would be for players to view the game world with a pragmatic rather than idealistic viewpoint.  Approach changes to the world in the way that the world will accept them, rather than how you feel it should accept them.  Figuring out those fine lines takes a little trial and error, but you'll find yourself feeling much better about your chances of success.

-LoD

Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on August 05, 2009, 05:32:50 PM

If the glass ceiling were really so high, and the power so firmly in the players hands, why is there such a trend of people in Noble / Templar positions coming out of it saying, "I'll never try to deal with them again!" Why is it that most of the players who leave the mud entirely do so after they've been in these roles?

Because it's HARD! Not impossible, just hard.
You PC has to become influential and/or powerful enough to gather minions and allies.
You have to wait for your minions and allies to become strong enough on their own, and last long enough (a battle in itself).
You have to plan, have your plans ruined, have your enemy discover your plans, change your plans, rinse and repeat.
When the time finally comes to move the plot, there's dealing with OOC coordination, allies and minion turnover, more waiting on rookie minions/allies to come into power.
Rome wasn't built in a day, and despite popular opinion didn't go down in one, either.

Leader PC tend to have a very high turnover.  I know one clan that has gone through at least half a dozen so far this year.
Some are impatient with having to gain power on their own, some die, some get overwhelmed, but when one finally sticks, it's worth it.
Other leaders around you failing/giving up around you is in itself discouraging.

Edited to add:
Damn you, LoD, damn you. :D

I have been feeling really burned out on my PC lately... this thread had gotten rid of almost all of that for me.

I really hope that it may turn the OP around as well.  If not, good luck out there, DustMight.

Quote from: Lizzie on August 05, 2009, 04:57:13 PM
jcjules wrote:

QuoteSometimes it just feels as if you're reporting to a brick wall of emotionless, nameless superiors, instead of a living breathing clan of people who may have particular biases for or against your PC.

This is precisely why I was disappointed with the change in policy regarding clan superior NPCs vs. OOC e-mailed reports.

Quote from: FantasyWriterI would have to say that I agree.  I have no idea how my leader NPCs feel about my character or his accomplishments/failures.

Wholeheartedly agree. This is the one aspect of the policy shift where I think a change would be wonderful. And I think it's achievable without any animation of the bosses. Either the low level NPCs could help with this (hinting at some higher-up's reaction) or else included in the email reply itself. Of course, it wouldn't make sense for every little accomplishment or scrap of news. But for the more significant ones, it would help greatly.

Having said that, we can always ask. I've asked how news was being received by the boss before, when I felt like it was especially important to know. Still, I'd love to see a change there.

There has never been a game made that can withstand decades of uptime without the players eventually becoming bored or jaded.^* Sometimes it's best to just move on. It doesn't necessary speak poorly of the game that all of its participants eventually gripe about how it's not living up to their expectations anymore and long for past glory days. Sometimes it's best to just salute and move on to greener pastures.





Except nethack.^*

Quote from: Lizzie on August 05, 2009, 06:10:44 PM
You're just not going to be able to build, or change the world now. Not true.
Titles are granted, not earned. Not true.
Accumulated wealth means little when it can't buy property. Not true.
Even highly skilled characters are nothing more than pawns. Not true.

I'm going to call you on this. I'll use Allanak as an example, since that's the part of the game I'm more familiar with.

QuoteYou're just not going to be able to build, or change the world now. Not true.

Provide an example of anything that has changed constructively in this city as a result of a player initiative in the past two years?
The only thing I can think of is the Azure Dragon, and that may not even be a player-initiated change.

QuoteTitles are granted, not earned. Not true. Not true.[\b]

While it's true that peons can progress through a series of ranks (e.g. Private/Corporal/Sergeant), they never ascend to importance from what I've seen. Have you heard of a commoner being made into a templar? A noble? A GMH family member? Their fate is to die and the world goes on pretty much as if they hadn't been there.

QuoteAccumulated wealth means little when it can't buy property. Not true.

Show me one example please of a commoner PC even owning a house, or opening a shop, in Allanak.

QuoteEven highly skilled characters are nothing more than pawns. Not true.

I'll qualify this one. Someone can possibly rise to have a destructive influence on the world. But a constructive one? I just don't see it.

Quote from: staggerlee on August 05, 2009, 07:38:02 PM
Except nethack.^*

Noted. We need more plentiful, creative, and brutal ways for character to die.

Also start players with kittens.

The @ stands here, dying of sickness.
A half-eaten kobold corpse lies here, its gnawed face in a taunting smirk.
An adorable kitten sits here, poking at the kobold corpse.

Quote from: Lizzie also wrote just under everything Salt Merchant demanded proof of on August 05, 2009, 06:10:44 PM

I am -playing- the proof that everything you've said so far is not true. I am not, however, strictly an Achiever player. I'm a combination of Achiever/Socializer.

Which means, Salt Merchant, that the proof you seek is IC information, it is CURRENT information, and I'm not gonna post about it. And the Azure Dragon most certainly WAS the result of specific player creation. And is ongoing, and IC.

As for the rest:

Here's a clue Salt Merchant: Just because it ain't happening to YOU doesn't mean it ain't happening. It's happening. You're just not involved in it, or for whatever reason, you haven't earned the right to experience it.

Quote from: Salt Merchant on August 05, 2009, 10:12:43 PM

QuoteYou're just not going to be able to build, or change the world now. Not true.

Provide an example of anything that has changed constructively in this city as a result of a player initiative in the past two years?
The only thing I can think of is the Azure Dragon, and that may not even be a player-initiated change.

It -was- player initiated.  
Name me one building project that was turned down by staff after players had put more than a months RP into it.

Quote from: Salt Merchant on August 05, 2009, 10:12:43 PM

QuoteTitles are granted, not earned. Not true. Not true.[\b]

While it's true that peons can progress through a series of ranks (e.g. Private/Corporal/Sergeant), they never ascend to importance from what I've seen. Have you heard of a commoner being made into a templar? A noble? A GMH family member? Their fate is to die and the world goes on pretty much as if they hadn't been there.

Seen two PCs recently who started as entry level employees reach a position in a GMH at which family members normally start.

Hlum nobles.  They are always started as commoners who make it to nobility through prowess.

Quote from: Salt Merchant on August 05, 2009, 10:12:43 PM

QuoteAccumulated wealth means little when it can't buy property. Not true.

Show me one example please of a commoner PC even owning a house, or opening a shop, in Allanak.

Buy a tent, set up shop.  The Kadian shop in Luir's was a result of a PC designing the line of clothing that it sells, and gaining the materials/wealth needed ot construct the building.

Quote from: Salt Merchant on August 05, 2009, 10:12:43 PM

QuoteEven highly skilled characters are nothing more than pawns. Not true.

I'll qualify this one. Someone can possibly rise to have a destructive influence on the world. But a constructive one? I just don't see it.

Constructive ones... the PCs that had the Azure dragon started.  The PC that worked towards the Kadian shop in Luir's.
The PCs that pushed for recently and soon to be added buildings in Tuluk and other IC sensative places.

Also Salt Merchant... If you don't like the way things are going in Allanak, perhaps you either need to:
A) Play somewhere else.
B) Take a leadership role in Allanak and change the things you don't like.
C) Suck it up, and keep playing like you're playing.
D) Don't.

Nothing you've said at all is constructive, and most of it has been ramblings of ignorance.
Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it isn't happening.

As you guys are saying, it's all about perspective. I've personally witnessed Salt Merchant bashing his head against the wall to get things into the game, and I can kind of see what he's saying. I'm not saying I -agree- 100%, but come on, lay off on him. It feels like everyone's got their fucking claws out over every little thing. Er, not that I can really talk, I guess.  :-\

Yes, changes can be implemented to either City of the game, in terms of construction.

Yes, that particular tavern you've mentioned was completely player driven.

Yes, it can constitute a change, but by no means an instant one .. that has taken 18 months to get to it's current state.

It's still an on-going process, and the matter can be found out ICly, in regards to the construction or changes being developed to any building or construction project in game. All it takes is the question, "What's that?"

It's like anything else in the game. You'll can put your heart and soul into something, and watch others fade away around you as you strive to reach that goal.  Nothing comes easy, and nothing happens in a week, a month, or even in some cases a year. However, if your patient and dedicated enough, you might just see that you've done something that will always remain in game, far outliving your character.*

*Until they change the version of the game the day after you're done, and burn your dreams to the ground.

Can we stop talking about IC projects now? I realize it's just an example but still..

I'm of the opinion that IC time should move more quickly. So that more things can get accomplished more easily without adversely affecting realism. I'm sorry, but 18 RL Months is too long to accomplish something in a virtual world. I could build a tavern in real life in less time than that.

Quote from: FantasyWriter on August 05, 2009, 10:41:41 PM
Also Salt Merchant... If you don't like the way things are going in Allanak, perhaps you either need to:
A) Play somewhere else.
B) Take a leadership role in Allanak and change the things you don't like.
C) Suck it up, and keep playing like you're playing.
D) Don't.

Nothing you've said at all is constructive, and most of it has been ramblings of ignorance.
Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it isn't happening.

You people are in fine fettle today, aren't you? Excuse me for my ramblings of ignorance and lack of a clue.

I wish you all would display more of a talent for separating your egos from a debate and sticking to the points at hand instead of making it personal.

My characters have walked the length and breadth of Allanak. Admittedly they haven't poked into the Noble's Quarter or the Templar's Quarter much of late, although it's not the nobles and templars I'm talking about anyhow. But otherwise, from what I can tell, there has been very, very little change over the past few years. What has come in has mostly been the destructive influence of you know what. Nor can I think of any truly memorable (in a historical sense) commoner.

Concerning being constructive, I've submitted many suggestions and ideas to the staff. Some have even been implemented.

I don't think the aggressive response on the GDB toward anyone airing an issue they have with the game is very productive. There's a very definite tendency among both staff and players to be insulted by any suggestion that something isn't working well, with the reaction being "shut up or leave". Would you really prefer that to happen? Someone who has otherwise been a diligent player just vanish?

There clearly is some angst in the player base about current affairs, one that is surfacing in threads like this one. Holding the lid on can only make it worse.

Apologies.  My last post was a little snippy..
Yes is it all a matter of perspective.

I've heard horror stories from players over staff "interference" in the past, but since the changes in staff policy a few months ago, I haven't heard of a single instance of staff shooting a plot down, quite the opposite in fact.  People are now fussing about not having -enough- staff involvement in plots.

Just goes to show how you can never please everyone.

Salt Merchant, was your issue Zoltan was referencing before or after the change?

     Several observations/reflections as I read this thread:

    1) Feelings obviously run high about some of the themes being explored here.  I can't help but think this is a reflection of our attachment to the game as a community.  

    2) I really enjoy seeing the different perspectives expressed herein.  I'm glad folks are taking the time to articulate their feelings on both OOC and IC experiences.  A few threads running right now have actually deepened my appreciation for how the game has evolved over time (and thus its current context), and this is one of them.  

    3) Having played a beloved, (semi-)sponsored character who literally got the shaft in the end, I think I'm a good candidate for feelings of disaffection towards the Staff if I were so inclined.  I put my heart and soul into playing her while it lasted, and had a vested interest in the outcome (who doesn't?).  Actually, I can honestly say she was the most "goal-driven" of any of my characters to date, both from an IC and OOC perspective (that's roughly four years of play, which, while hardly remarkable in these parts, is long enough to have some sense of how different characters can interface with the world, I believe), and I had imbued her with certain characteristics to facilitate a particular direction.  However, the story unfolded as it should have, really, given that our shared reality is a hellish environment where life is dirt (sand?) cheap, and happy endings almost never come about.  It's like reading some kind of relentless, twisted fairy tale, of the kind that the Brothers Grimm would have been proud to pen.  
    I very much sympathize with LoC's feelings of helplessness, and appreciate the sense of betrayal I get as I read his/her post.  Helplessness, though, is really one of the themes of the game, which all of us who stay in these parts for any length of time have to contend with to greater or lesser degrees (acknowledged code "wizards" such as X-D and his ilk, maybe not so much, but for the rest of us mere mortals the point stands).  That kind of clawing and scraping, the drive to find some way around, through, or under various hurdles to development, both plot- and character-related, is what drives much of the narrative here.  It can be as simple as "How do I feed myself?" to "How do I liberate Tuluk?", but it's ubiquitous.  Not omni-present, but ubiquitous.

    4)  After reading this:  
 

Quote from: Decameron on August 05, 2009, 04:12:05 AM
My question being - Why can't that experiment be now? Why the glass ceiling? Why not let clan pcs have authority over their own actions, make decisions which effect a broad range of other individuals, get to lead Merchant Houses, lead their own tribe, etc? It'd assume the same role of giving reports and the like, but would actually give them the authority to make the decisions somewhat on their own than worrying about a now invisible person looking over their shoulder. Sure, it'd be a lonely role - but there are already lonely roles in leadership. Sure, people might screw it up, they might make the wrong decision and send their organizations face first into the sand - but aren't these the type of risks that are supposedly going to be given to pcs in the new version of the game?

    I understand the need for stability.  I really do (or at least think I do, looking at it from a player perspective but also having run numerous role-playing games of my own over the years, both tabletop and LARPs).  I understand (and frequently witness!) PC death, and what that could do to the underlying structure of the MUD if applied to "upper management".  I understand the nightmare of having, say, multiple GMH heads die in a single event, or even a Black Robe croaking in some Krath-awful bloodbath of an HRPT.
    Notwithstanding, I posit that for the very few who have shown, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that they can play a character with that rarest of blends, dynamism coupled with awesome longevity . . . they should get a shot at the Big Time.  Maybe not the very top of the pile, but darn close.  And perhaps the top in their respective stomping grounds.  I don't think it's too IC for me to say that Decameron is one of those rarae aves that has all the elements needed for this as a player:  an iron-clad understanding not only of his character, but also of that character's relationship to the greater world (vital for those who could wreak havok if they upset the "eco-system" of the game); amazingly-consistent rp that's also in-depth and in-sync with the themes of the gameworld (somewhat OOC, but again a "must have" for people who would be occupying what were previously NPC-only heights); and an ability to survive and thrive over the course of multiple large story-arcs and numerous smaller ones.  In my humble opinion, if there were poster-children for the Staff to experiment with in the current incarnation of our desert universe, it would be him and those like him that I, as a player, do not see.

    5) I wonder if some of the reluctance of players to attempt to move into the higher positions is because of the previous (perceived?) impossibility of doing so?  I know someone brought this up earlier (sorry, hon, running out of steam and I can't quite find it right now  :) ), and I can easily see how a kind of "learned helplessness" could arise from the old way of doing things, if such was actually the case.  I would think that in time, this reluctance would naturally run its course, with its end perhaps hastened by players like Lizzie who tenaciously push at the limits of what's currently  possible (You go, girl!).

    6) I very much hope we continue to honor the various perspectives making themselves known here.  It would be a loss to all of us if the the level of discussion got diminished soley because some of us felt intimidated or marginalized by others.

Quote from: Salt Merchant on August 05, 2009, 10:12:43 PM

QuoteAccumulated wealth means little when it can't buy property. Not true.

Show me one example please of a commoner PC even owning a house, or opening a shop, in Allanak.

I had a house. In Allanak. Course I got it 2+ years ago.

Quote from: Bluefae on August 06, 2009, 02:13:34 AM
    5) I wonder if some of the reluctance of players to attempt to move into the higher positions is because of the previous (perceived?) impossibility of doing so?  I know someone brought this up earlier (sorry, hon, running out of steam and I can't quite find it right now  :) ), and I can easily see how a kind of "learned helplessness" could arise from the old way of doing things, if such was actually the case.

I just wanted to touch on this, though I really don't have much else to contribute to the thread. Often times, it isn't a 'perceived' impossibility of doing so, but a clearly-stated impossibility.

I've been told by staff "no, there is no way for a PC to ever be Rank X even if you fulfill the promotion requirements" or "we are no longer allowing players to play Role X even though it's a vital part of the clan and you're still supposed to act like they're around" or "if you attain this rank, we will store your character."

It's frustrating at times, especially when Rank X or Role X is something that many PCs have done in the past--something a previous PC of your own may have done--that added a lot to the game. I assume that the game's staff have a valid reason for wanting to do this, but I understand that to players, it often just looks like either a mistrust of players' ability to handle things... or simply a means to maintain an iron-fisted hold on the status quo.

I don't think anyone minds being told that it's incredibly difficult to rise above the ranks of middle management.

On the other hand, it is discouraging to be told that such a thing is literally impossible and the game will not allow it... for reasons you will never be allowed to know.

Quote from: FantasyWriter on August 05, 2009, 11:38:20 PM
Salt Merchant, was your issue Zoltan was referencing before or after the change?

Well before the past few months.

Perhaps when we get to a year after the most recent staffing policy changes, we can discuss its effectiveness. It seems a lot of the examples of people trying to change things in this thread are old and thus, are of little relevance to the discussion since the policy was changed in an attempt to fix those bad situations. (Correct me if I'm wrong though.)

While I feel for people in this thread who have talked about the roadblocks they've butted heads with (Salt Merchant and Fathi most recently; others previously in the thread) the roadblocks have become hurdles now, haven't they? Hurdles that can be overcome if you tweak your jumping strategy a bit. Perhaps with a longer running start (more preparation for the plot) and better running shoes (money, position and power).

Quote from: Sraosha on August 05, 2009, 10:17:27 PM

Quote from: staggerlee on August 05, 2009, 07:38:02 PM
Except nethack.^*

Noted. We need more plentiful, creative, and brutal ways for character to die.

Also start players with kittens.

Code Select Expand

The @ stands here, dying of sickness.
A half-eaten kobold corpse lies here, its gnawed face in a taunting smirk.
An adorable kitten sits here, poking at the kobold corpse.

Please?
Everyone loves kittens.

eat kitten
You eat part of an adorable little fluffy kitten.

inventory
the head of shalooonsh
a partially eaten adorable little fluffy kitten.

think Damn it! I hate getting kitten fluff stuck on the back of my tongue!

Still sleeping with my head, huh?

Olgaris, everyone knows it's more efficient to just huff kittens than to actually devour them.

http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Kitten_Huffing

Quote from: Cutthroat on August 06, 2009, 08:27:27 AM
Perhaps when we get to a year after the most recent staffing policy changes, we can discuss its effectiveness. It seems a lot of the examples of people trying to change things in this thread are old and thus, are of little relevance to the discussion since the policy was changed in an attempt to fix those bad situations. (Correct me if I'm wrong though.)

While I feel for people in this thread who have talked about the roadblocks they've butted heads with (Salt Merchant and Fathi most recently; others previously in the thread) the roadblocks have become hurdles now, haven't they? Hurdles that can be overcome if you tweak your jumping strategy a bit. Perhaps with a longer running start (more preparation for the plot) and better running shoes (money, position and power).

I'd like to hear a commentary on how well the change has affected the game, after 1 year, as well.

Quote from: Shalooonsh on August 06, 2009, 01:12:10 PM
Still sleeping with my head, huh?

Olgaris, everyone knows it's more efficient to just huff kittens than to actually devour them.

http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Kitten_Huffing

What... You've never swallowed a roach?

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090328230446AAkTfKL

Quote from: Shalooonsh on August 06, 2009, 01:12:10 PM
Still sleeping with my head, huh?

Olgaris, everyone knows it's more efficient to just huff kittens than to actually devour them.

http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Kitten_Huffing

(http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/uncyclopedia/images/thumb/4/41/Kittenhuffing101.gif/180px-Kittenhuffing101.gif)

LMAO

Holy shit!  :o

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

I FUCKING LOVE IT!

I don't think I have ever been this burned out. I think my last character's death killed my soul. I can't even come up with a character concept when I look at a character generator. 

Quote from: Delstro on August 06, 2009, 11:45:26 PM
I don't think I have ever been this burned out. I think my last character's death killed my soul. I can't even come up with a character concept when I look at a character generator. 

Play a character who has no soul.

I think you win. Touche`

Hey don't derail my "I might be leaving, maybe, I'm not sure." thread!

How about you just take a break, come back refreshed, and forget about your "I might be leaving soon" thread?

Hogwash. Nobody leaves.

I was about to say ... I think it's really cool how we all took a "I'm leaving because the game sucks" thread and made it into a happy thread about snorting kittens.

In my experience intense, flaming, red-hot threads either get locked or derailed into harmlessness and kittens.

Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on August 07, 2009, 02:10:49 AM
How about you just take a break, come back refreshed, and forget about your "I might be leaving soon" thread?

Hogwash. Nobody leaves.

Says YOU. I'm great at leaving. I've done it at least six times now.

Quote from: Comrade Canadia on August 07, 2009, 04:36:00 PM

Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on August 07, 2009, 02:10:49 AM
How about you just take a break, come back refreshed, and forget about your "I might be leaving soon" thread?

Hogwash. Nobody leaves.

Says YOU. I'm great at leaving. I've done it at least six times now.

I haven't come back yet. Or else I never really left. Urm.

Quote from: Comrade Canadia on August 07, 2009, 04:36:00 PM

Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on August 07, 2009, 02:10:49 AM
How about you just take a break, come back refreshed, and forget about your "I might be leaving soon" thread?

Hogwash. Nobody leaves.

Says YOU. I'm great at leaving. I've done it at least six times now.

Next time you leave, tell Mansa his cancer is going into remission!

He'll be pleased. Having the other testicle fall off would just crush the poor boy.

Eh, sometimes players do stay gone. I'm still gone and have no idea whether I'm coming back, or when.

Have to say that the difficulty of achieving anything without playing 4 hours per day is definitely a deterrent to my interest level. It's not (so much) that the game is stale or that I'm jaded; it's just I have a life which is more important than this game is. If I could play an hour a day and make reasonable progress over time in terms of coins, possessions, skills, contacts, friendships, and plots, in the types of roles that I enjoy; then I would probably do so. But the way the game is set up now, playing such a limited quantity is frustrating for all those to whom I have spoken who experience similar time constraints. (Yes, I do believe there are many things that could be added to the gameworld to make ARM more casual-friendly.)

Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 10, 2009, 11:55:30 AM
Have to say that the difficulty of achieving anything without playing 4 hours per day is definitely a deterrent to my interest level. It's not (so much) that the game is stale or that I'm jaded; it's just I have a life which is more important than this game is. If I could play an hour a day and make reasonable progress over time in terms of coins, possessions, skills, contacts, friendships, and plots, in the types of roles that I enjoy; then I would probably do so. But the way the game is set up now, playing such a limited quantity is frustrating for all those to whom I have spoken who experience similar time constraints. (Yes, I do believe there are many things that could be added to the gameworld to make ARM more casual-friendly.)

QFTFT.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 10, 2009, 11:55:30 AM
Eh, sometimes players do stay gone. I'm still gone and have no idea whether I'm coming back, or when.

Have to say that the difficulty of achieving anything without playing 4 hours per day is definitely a deterrent to my interest level. It's not (so much) that the game is stale or that I'm jaded; it's just I have a life which is more important than this game is. If I could play an hour a day and make reasonable progress over time in terms of coins, possessions, skills, contacts, friendships, and plots, in the types of roles that I enjoy; then I would probably do so. But the way the game is set up now, playing such a limited quantity is frustrating for all those to whom I have spoken who experience similar time constraints. (Yes, I do believe there are many things that could be added to the gameworld to make ARM more casual-friendly.)

That's what's kept me away for the last loooong time, though I like to hold out hope for some fit of depression, loneliness and unemployment when I can pick the game up again.

Also I want my kitten damn it.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 10, 2009, 11:55:30 AM
Have to say that the difficulty of achieving anything without playing 4 hours per day is definitely a deterrent to my interest level.

I really did enjoy playing the-last-character-I-cared-about.  But I knew (s)he was tremendously limited in what (s)he could ever achieve: you just really can't play a leader character who misses RPTs and is unknown to 3/4 of the local population and is the last one to hear about anything.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 10, 2009, 11:55:30 AM
Eh, sometimes players do stay gone. I'm still gone and have no idea whether I'm coming back, or when.

Have to say that the difficulty of achieving anything without playing 4 hours per day is definitely a deterrent to my interest level. It's not (so much) that the game is stale or that I'm jaded; it's just I have a life which is more important than this game is. If I could play an hour a day and make reasonable progress over time in terms of coins, possessions, skills, contacts, friendships, and plots, in the types of roles that I enjoy; then I would probably do so. But the way the game is set up now, playing such a limited quantity is frustrating for all those to whom I have spoken who experience similar time constraints. (Yes, I do believe there are many things that could be added to the gameworld to make ARM more casual-friendly.)

No kidding. That said, in keeping with my own marvelous skills at quitting - I'm quitting the game again, this time (and for the first time) with the intent for it to be permanent. I may poke around if Arm 2 comes about, but the game -has- changed. Fare thee well armag!

Here's the thing - searching the internet over I can not find a better place to role-play.  Despite whatever problems I have with Armageddon - it's still the only place where you can really RP and still have death be a real and palpable fear. 

Welcome back. Come on in, the water's fine.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on October 14, 2009, 06:36:46 PM
Welcome back. Come on in, the water's fine.

And deep...and dark...and no way to see the bottom...

To be honest, I also said this....then some of my long time Arm friends talked back into playing. I don't play much, but I do play nonetheless......as much as I want to leave Arm and concentrate on real life....there are those times when you have absolutely nothing to do and low and behold your mind wanders to Arm topics........it's a curse....a very, very, very sexy curse that takes over your soul.


--<*Titansfan*>--

I haven't read the other replies because I assumed it would turn into a flame war so forgive me if I am just repeating what another has said.

I have been playing the game for a very long time myself and I would have to agree with your observations regarding the changes, for the most part. I agree that Allanak seems to hold what -I- feel Armageddon is and Tuluk seems a bit out of place.

I loved the occupation version of Tuluk, it felt like it fit in great. There were rebels and a resistance, the north was chaotic and dangerous. It was like a small hunting outpost that always had conflict. Hell, when the north became occupied that was the only place I would play. Now I have played a handful of PCs there and I, personally, hate the feel of it. I think a good idea was thought up but someone went way overboard with it.

Please don't get me wrong though. Tuluk has some awesome elements. Wonderful building, -great- ideas. It just doesn't feel like the harsh world of Armageddon to me. Maybe Tek needs to take it again  ;D

On that note; I think taking a break is a good idea but make sure you come back.  ;) You still have Allanak! And I am also willing to bet that a lot of the older players tend to be drawn down there.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 10, 2009, 11:55:30 AM
Eh, sometimes players do stay gone. I'm still gone and have no idea whether I'm coming back, or when.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on October 14, 2009, 06:36:46 PM
Welcome back. Come on in, the water's fine.

Another victim of the Crackageddon Tractor Beam.

Quote from: LoD on October 15, 2009, 10:37:04 AM

Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 10, 2009, 11:55:30 AM
Eh, sometimes players do stay gone. I'm still gone and have no idea whether I'm coming back, or when.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on October 14, 2009, 06:36:46 PM
Welcome back. Come on in, the water's fine.

Another victim of the Crackageddon Tractor Beam.

*nods sagely* And we're the richer for it.   :)

I will neither confirm nor deny that I may, or may not, play ARM now or at some time in the theoretical future. Probably.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on October 17, 2009, 02:43:24 PM
I will neither confirm nor deny that I may, or may not, play ARM now or at some time in the theoretical future. Probably.

I'm going to say this again.  I did not have sexual relations with that character....  

These allegations are false.

That depends on what your definition of "is", is.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on October 17, 2009, 04:21:48 PM
That depends on what your definition of "is", is.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/is

Main Entry: 1is
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English; akin to Old High German ist is (from sīn to be), Latin est (from esse to be), Greek esti (from einai to be)
present 3d singular of be
dialect present 1st & 2d singular of be
dialect present plural of be