Reiloth? What is being done - question, Player Response

[Eclipse]

I'm one of those people that believes that it's an issue between playability and realism. However, it is something that should probably be fixed one day in such a way to make it more playable for those people that it directly affects.

The biggest problem with this however is that a lot of people have problems with the way the criminal code in game works but they haven't really offered any solutions that can be coded. For instance, NPC guards everywhere suddenly know about your being wanted.

Solution?
Make all the guards delayed for a few minutes.

New Problem?
The guards are all now delayed so it's realistic that guards in another area will suddenly not know about you until the spread of the news gets to them but now you have guards that were 10 feet away standing there, seeing you, having heard the "Thief! Thief" call and yet they aren't doing anything.

New Solution?
Make guards within different zones respond in such a manner as to apply delayers to their actions for wanted.

Problems?
Rezoning, a lot of code-effort, imm-effort to bring it into existence. Still there would be problems. If you're on the edge of a zone, you can do the steal, etc. and the guard there responds but then you flee 1 room or 2 and suddenly, you're off scot free for a few minutes.

Final End:
There is no perfect solution that doesn't require you to spend the rest of your life trying to code in EVERY single possible response. We, being players that like to do innovative things, would love that but it simply isn't going to happen unless you can find a coder that'll devote his time and energy to the project and not give up whenever somebody comes up with a new fallacy.

So, by posting a question that asks what the imms have done to solve a problem (in which case we as players don't know everything that's occurred and imms probably aren't privy to reveal all as it may affect IC actions) but rather, what can be done to solve the problem that is perceived. And what can be done has to be codeable, require a modest amount of time to have implemented, and impact enough of the player base to actually draw an imm's time if not more into it. As players, the most we can do is come up with debate after debate about what is the problem and what we believe might be doable however, unless you're a coder, the first aspect is the only thing you can do in which case, you might as well just e-mail the MUD, you'll have a better chance of some imm reading it.

So that's why I think your post was removed. If it was indeed on "What is being done, if anything, to fix the inherently quirky criminal code?" as you noted in your last posting. Then again, by now, an imm may have responded with another answer in which case it just goes to show I'm imperfect like everyone else. Cheers.

[Sanvean]

I think we've gone round and round about the crim code, and I will say that some tweaks have been made, over the years.  There are a host of problems involved with changing it, and most of them have been discussed in the past threads.  

When I look in our bug database, I see a bug from whenever we first set up the database and started moving stuff into there titled "Crim-code problems" which has seven bugs collected in it.  If you want to post points that you think should go into the bug and that a coder should consider when working on it, feel free and I'll include a link to this thread in it.

[Reiloth]

Actually...VERY helpful post, Eclipse and Sanvean, thank you.

If I could go back in time...This is the answers I would've liked to see. Another player's perspective, and a staff member.

I guess it would take more time than its actually worth to tweak it severely.

I just thought about it...Any sort of change from the system now would be somehow jilted...It would give either the soldiers the benefits or the criminals, and as it should be, the law should have the edge I guess.

The thing that disturbs me most about the crim code is the severe damage a soldier can do in a mere milisecond.

But you know what...I'm really over it.

Its Arm. Its Harsh. You die. You move on, you make a new character, and maybe next time..You'll give that soldier a good kick in the arse, or you'll sneak right past him. Its in our hands as players to avoid the intricasies of the code, and while challenging, it can be rewarding as well..

I think thats my final take on this issue. I think.

EDIT: In response to Sanvean...Thats actually very cool.

I think the biggest problems are:

1) Speed of NPC reaction being waaaay faster than any PC could react. It seems even faster with NPC soldiers, than with NPC animals or such. Even a raptor reacts like I feel it should...Pausing...Considering you...Then going in for the kill...As opposed to how we all know soldiers act now.
2) The severity of crimes: If someone is a murderer, they should be killed on sight by the militia. If someone is a thief, they should inherently not really be approached with violence. Especially in places very un-prone to violence like Tuluk...You would think in a place where they have liscensed thieves..That they would more give you a slap on the wrist, albeit a hard one, than come at you blades drawn. (This issue is probably too difficult to code though. Its best, if you're a thief, and you know you're wanted, to just be careful and go with nosave on)
3) The intensity of soldiers: In a city where I see one NPC every few rooms, you would think that the density of Soldiers in a city would be far, far less, accentuated by the fact that there are not more than a handful PC militia members in either city at any given moment. The way I see it, a player represents X amount of VNPC population in a given institution...So for instance...Two militia members would equal maybe 2 or 3 units of Militia throughout a city, even if they werent in leading positions...Its just a system I think about in my head. Four or Five Kadian hunters...maybe a hundered hunters.

I may be getting off topic...As the last bit seems really ranty in retrospect.

But coolbeans.

Peace + love.

[Eclipse]

Would it be possible to get a listing of the big 7 crim-code problems that're already in the files this way we don't cover them again and again?

[Kalden]

Maybe some soldiers are uber, but I can remember my elven pickpocket whomping on a Tulukian guard with a little dagger. I dunno what that's all about.

The biggest problem to me is the way that guards automagically spot you in a milisecond and jump on you, in these hugely crowded streets. That's a big contradiction right there.

Solution: allow sneaking to retain hidden status, so the spam-look guards don't always catch you.

[sacac]

I think it is fine, they can insta-spot you because there are a lot of vnpc guards?

[Vettrock]

While this would require a lot of coding, and doesn't quite fit into the way the system works here,, and ignored to virtual population, but It may be able to be adapted somewhat.  Basically when you commited a crime all of the PCs and NPC got a flag that showed the criminal and their crime.  These NPC would then head for the mayors office and attempt to 'complian'  As they went, they would tell any soldiers they saw, and they would get the flag as well.  Once a PC or NPC with the flag gets to the mayor's office and complain's, the word immediately went out to all soliders and you were wanted, and were killed on sight.  If you could kill all the witnesses, (and didn't get seen killing the witnesses, which would be another crime)  you could get away.

Like I said it ignores the VNPC population and the use of the way to spread the description of criminals, but something like this could be used for the gradual spreading of the wanted status.  The other thing, If there could be at least a short delay before becoming wanted and the soldiers attacking you, it would help.

[Mordere]

I'm pretty sure that this reply will get lost in the gears but I really have no problem with crim code being so severe, or even so fast. I would love to see the crim code adjusted, if at all, so that covering is taken into account. I would -love- to see the law mobs hunting for a tall, cloaked figure with blue eyes, roughly 8 stones, probably 72-75 inches in height.

I think it would rock if thieves could be wanted and still walk in the city, albeit quietly.. not necessarily sneaking/hiding but rather, I dunno. hell. there are fugitives everywhere IRL, many living in the same country they're fugitives in. Not everyone runs to Mexico. But what happens? We smear their face over tv, and wait for someone to recognize.

Of course, Zalanthas doesn't have TV, so picture this.. I am an alleyway robber in relatively low tech times (Jack the Ripper is one of my favorite stories) , I find someone walking up, I step up, wham, I slice open their stomach, cut their purse strap as they drop, and keep walking. Billy Bob the neighborhood bum is stumbling home from a long night of drinking, and as I'm walking by, he sees my face, but it's night and he only gets a glimpse. Seeing the body, he screams bloody hell, and constables/cops come running. Is everyone instantly going to know I am Joe Smith who manages the jewelry shop on the corner of 15th and 21st cobblestone road? Fuck no. They're going to know I was tall, not too thick, blonde hair, dark eyes tho maybe they were brown, or maybe green.. and that I had this mole on my chin. Me, being the sneaky bastard I am, walk home, lick a napkin, and wine the small smudge of khol put on my face.
Not every disguise is any more elaborate then dyeing your hair, or putting on a fake mustache.

I don't know if this could be coded, and even if it could, I doubt it'd ever happen, but I like to be an optimist alot, and will still hope. In a city of 500000 people, unless someone can point you out in a lineup, I don't see how they'd instantly know who you are, no matter what you're wearing.

Anyone ever played a mud with disguises? For all the use of disguises, it's usually useless when crim code is in place. I'd love to see a change in that.

Anyways, I'm done ranting.

[Anonymous]

I think another solution to the abrupt deaths caused by the crim code would be:

Checking to see if the person wanted is armed.

I dunno if that would be a difficult coding job, but it would go somthing like this.

A tiny, cute thief walks south.

A tiny, cute thief sheathes a simple bone dagger.

A tiny, cute thief looks west, and shits his pants.

A burly soldier arrives from the west.

A burly soldier sheathes his weapons.

A burly tries to subdue the tiny, cute thief, but fails.

A burly soldier hits the tiny, cute thief very hard in the noggin.

A tiny, cute thief crumples to the ground, his eyes rolling back into his head.


~~~

Thus...You would avoid both being killed outright/insta-gibbed, and would have a fighting chance to either flee or duke it out.

Of course, if the person who was wanted whipped out his weapons, the soldier would do so probably quicker, and kill said wanted person quicker than you can say "owee".

Hmmmmmm?

[naatok]

First, I just want to say that I'm sure code can be improved.  Any programming can use a good adjustment here and there as time and use discovers situations it does not cover, or situations it handles in ways that were never intended.  I see this nearly every day in my work RL.

Second, to me the idea of near instant reaction by soldiers of a city-state to a criminalization of someone is completely within the IC bounds of ArmageddonMud.  Players use psionic contact all the time to transmit news of vital import across the known world and no one thinks twice about the viability of such pc capability.

Do we think the Soldiers and Templars of the cities, as well as the private armies of Kurac or the Sand Lord, or tribal communities would not be using the Mind's Way to such effect to control law and order?

If I were a soldier of Allanak and I was made aware of a crime in which the criminal was seen or known, I would certainly alert my compatriots to the menace so that they could help in the search and capture/killing of the offender.

The one problem I see in this regard is this:  which hooded and cloaked figure should the cops of Zalanthas be looking for?  How easy would it be for them to 'know' a hooded, veiled, or otherwise incognito person is a vicious criminal in need of being brought to justice?

Two comments on this:  One, there are people who play here that would HEAVILY abuse the criminal code to their advantage if recognition of incognito criminals were not coded.  Two, it would require ALOT of time and effort to code a way to make this work that would not endanger the balance of the game.

Just some thoughts by a naughty monkey

[Anonymous]

Just make it where people stop instantly dying even with nosave on

[mansa]

Just make it where people stop instantly dying even with nosave on

Stop breakin' the law, foo.  Some of the militia hate you and want to kill you even though you have you're little 'nosave' flag in the air.

[jstorrie]

I think another solution to the abrupt deaths caused by the crim code would be:

Checking to see if the person wanted is armed.

This is an alright idea, I think, especially if combined with some sort of 'crim level'.  If you're being chased for stealing a beggar's basket, odds are they'll just knock you out.  If you're throwing spells around or killing other citizens or something, the guards might just decide to not put away their weapons.

[Anonymous]

Exactly...

So Lets say for instance...You're a thief. You are wanted for stealing. The Guards, while thinking you're a pesky annoyance, would have much more fun turning you over to some Templars who can toy with you, so that they can find the real scum of the earth...Burglars, Murders, and Defilers.

There would be different wanted levels based on the coded "action" you tried, and failed.

So for instance..Steal would be a 1. Burglarly, if reported, at a big ol' 2. You kill somebody, 3. Cast a spell that harms or otherwise ruins someone's day, 4.

At a level 3 or 4, Guards wouldn't give a shiznick if you were caught with your pants down. They'll come out guns blazing. 1 or 2...meh..Not worth the effort..Just some pesky thieves.

Comments?

[Gazarsgo]

Why can't the 'patrol' type of soldiers be given weapons that KO before they kill (in a general sense, but deaths should be much more accidental and much more a product of a struggling thief) and leave swords/lethal weapons to the NPCs used for guards (both of gates and of templars/locations)?

[mansa]

Or have certain guards have 'mercy' on and others have it off.

[Morrolan]

Hmm.  Make some guards have "thug" subclass skills?

Code Select Expand

The burly guard runs up and smacks you on the head.
You are napping.

Of course, this might kill some people out of hand, but it would be an interesting third response.

Code Select Expand

The guard has arrived.
The guard yells, "Freeze, buddy!"
The guard attempts to subdue you, but you struggle away.
The guard draws his club.
The guard draws his club.
The guard smacks you on the noggin.

This would make a good "third response" for citizens.

Non-citizens?  That's what blades are for.
*bloodthirsty grin*