Seeing farther

[Teleri]

While reflecting on both the ranger class and the desert-elf race, it occured to me that perhaps both should have another ability making them more useful.  What I suggest is to give both of these the ability to see further in sandstorms, by one room, depending on the degree of the sandstorm.

For instance, if the sandstorm limits most characters' vision to 2 squares, then the ranger/d-elf should be able to see 3 squares ahead.  If the sandstorm is limiting to 1 square, then the ranger/d-elf should be able to see 2 squares ahead.  However, if the sandstorm blocks out vision to all but the immediate square, then the ranger/d-elf effect is nulled.  This would, of course, take effect in only outdoor areas.

My reasoning for this is simple:  rangers and desert elves are far more used to sandstorms and navigating in them.  They would be able to use small landmarks to orient themselves from what they could see, and perhaps their eyes are just far better than those unaccustomed to the desert life.  I believe that this ability would be beneficial to the rangers, and to those who employ them, for they would be able to avoid danger or see potential prey/landmarks even in a sandstorm.  This would make the class more useful in navigating outside the cities, and might open up more employment opportunities for them.  

So, any thoughts?  Comments?  I apologize if this ability is already in effect, and I've just never noticed it before.

[WhiteRanger]

I like this idea very much....kudoes for having a sharp mind.

[Larrath]

Vote nay.

A sandstorm in the desert, especially a stronger one, is basically one enormous cloud of sand and dust that flies at great speed.

It's almost like looking through a wall of sand.  While you could codedly say that your character can see ten cords ahead instead of just three, you are not going to increase your visibility by one league.

And as for desert elves/rangers being more used to sandstorms...the only thing a realistic desert elf/ranger would do during a sandstorm is get in the opposite direction as fast as possible while seeking any sort of shelter.


The city states at least have some buildings and walls and other things to block some of the sand or slow it down...but out in the open sands, if you get in a sandstorm, the most realistic thing to do would be to run the hell away and look for a cave or some destroyed wagon or something to hide under.

[JollyGreenGiant]

I voted neither, but it bears some explanation.  I'm not certain that rangers really need yet another addition to their long list of abilities.  In addtion to a very broad variety of skills, rangers are already the only class that can: both wield and hold something while riding, hitch multiple mounts, forage for food, and quit in a greater number of locations outdoors.  Similarly, desert elves have a number of coded advantages, but since I couldn't find them in the documentation, I won't list out what they are.

I don't think the idea of somehow being able to see farther in a sandstorm is necessarily a bad one, but I'd rather see it attached to an item, such as sunslits, than restricted to a certain race or class.

[jhunter]

On the subject of seeing farther though...I did send an idea for a spyglass tool.

hold spyglass

You hold a leather-tubed spyglass.

use spyglass east

You peer through the spyglass to the east.

[near]

Not much.

[far]

A hooded figure in a sandy-colored cloak is standing here.

[very far]

Not shit.

[extremely far]

Jack shit.

[way far out]

A pair of enormous shelled creatures trample the grasses as they go at it wildly, odd-colored liquids flying through the air around them.

think Hrrrmmm...best avoid that area.

[My 2 sids]

If this would come into place I'd say elves only (make it part of the race, not the life-style)

Or, why not make this connected with sun-glasses or headgear?

[jmordetsky]

I think D-elfs being better adapted for survival in the desert would have evolved the ability to see better in the high winds along with enhanced movement abilities.


The spy glass idea is coolness, but on clear days only. Shouldn't enhance your ability to see in low vis.

[Dresan]

I've always thought that in the wilds only rangers, hunter and a few other subclasses (and desert elves and other desert creature) should be able to see the third room (very far)...everyone else should see two since they are used to the city and not used to see through the wind and blowing sand that must exist even on the clearest days.  This would also make them more valuable as guides.

[Agent_137]

taking away abilities piss people off.

I'm in favor of the status quo on this issue.

[Anonymous]

Seeing further in high sands would require some sort of psionic enhancement to your sight, or something, so I really don't think this idea is fitting.

[Agent_137]

i could see elves having better sight in general, like, in clear weather, can see an extra league. But like some one said, they sound like they've a lot of advantages already.

(I wouldn't know first hand.)

[forest imp]

I could se the argument of being able to see further while within a city, but out in the wilds? No. If each room in the wild is roughly a league, then seeing 4 rooms away would be akin to seeing roughly 10-12 miles. Even if you could see that far, how much detail could anyone, even an elf or a ranger, see? And in bad weather, I don't understand justifying being able to see in the blowing sand any better than anyone else. Blowing sand is just that, and can create a definite wall effect, that's exceptionally dificult to pierce with vision. Even for someone that's used to it. Granted, I've little to no experience with the RL workings of a sandstorm, but I do have quite a bit of knowledge dealing with blowing snow, and white-out conditions. I think the situation would be similar.

[Larrath]

Go to a flat desert once and stare in one direction.

You're going to be able to see REALLY far.


The most important reason why I do not want rangers/hunters/delves to be able to see further in sandstorms is because this will make sandstorms ignored even more, which is just a bad and unrealistic thing.

"Do you want to ride out?".
"But there's a sandstorm starting!".
"Don't worry about it, mate, I've got me a good pair of eyes...".

Bad, bad, bad.  If anything, make sandstorms in the deserts -worse-.

[Tamarin]

rangers are already sick, sick killing machines.  Let's try and avoid this, I think.

[Teleri]

I have seriously yet to see a ranger who is a passable near-survivor, much less a "sick, sick killing machine".  

I understand that seeing in a sandstorm is very hard, and quite impossible for our human eyes.  However, the desert-elves are certainly not human, and so I think they would be quite adept at seeing potential prey/danger better (further away) in such sandstorms.  Rangers are, ideally, similarly conditioned and probably have developed different tactics to achieve the same result.  

Also, given some of the other abilities of a ranger not covered in the documentation, I think that if this suggestion is too unrealistic, than those others should be removed.  I understand that these people aren't supermen, but  they're definitely harshly conditioned and adapted to travel/sight in open sandstorm conditions.

[jhunter]

The spy glass idea is coolness, but on clear days only. Shouldn't enhance your ability to see in low vis.

Oh yeah, totally I never meant it as otherwise. Just this thread reminded me of it...I wonder if it will ever happen or if it can be done...

I voted neither by the way. I see no reason why any one type of pc should be able to see better through blowing sands than another.

[X-D]

I have seriously yet to see a ranger who is a passable near-survivor, much less a "sick, sick killing machine".

Ha..I love players like that, makes it easier on my rangers to kill their chars.

A ranger, like any of the top 3 combat classes can become sick sick killing machines, funny thing is, by the time they do, most people think they are warriors or assassins...grin.

And I voted neither, no reason why anybody would be able to see through blowing dirt/sand without magick.

[Tamarin]

I have seriously yet to see a ranger who is a passable near-survivor, much less a "sick, sick killing machine".

You obviously haven't seen a 50-60 day ranger with maxxed skills.

[Bestatte]

There is nothing different about a ranger's or desert elf's eyes that can let them be capable of avoiding sand being whipped into them.

No matter how well they can see, if they have 20/20 vision and the rest of the known world does not..it just makes no sense for their ability to see to NOT be useless when there's a sandstorm whipping around their faces.

What they -are- able to do, that others might not be able to do, is know how to avoid getting stuck in the storm in the first place, and be able to maneuver their way through the storm itself far better than any normal city grebber could. The code already allows for this to some extent as far as I know, and I feel that's sufficient.

[Angela Christine]

Elves are human.

[Vettrock]

Elves are human.

ummm...huh?
Last time I checked on Zalanthas, elves were elves, men were men, and the kanks were scared....er....
Well the elves being elves part is true at least...

[Tamarin]

Yeah, I would have to say that elves are definitely not human.  I would go so far as to think that dwarves have shitty eyesight (maybe 2 rooms), humans have average eyesight (3 rooms), and elves can potentially have very good eyesight (4 rooms in the desert for d-elves, 4 rooms in the city for city elves).

[Angela Christine]

Humans and elves can interbreed, and their offspring are fertile with either parent species and eachother.  That is pretty much the standard criteria for being the same species.  I suppose you could make the arguement that they are seperate subspecies of Homo Sapiens, but I've always thought subspiecies were a cop out.

For elves how about:

Homo Sapiens Concurso -- with training an elf can learn to run about and rush to and fro exceptionally well.  
(concurso -are [to run about, rush to and fro])  

For Zalanthan humans I sugest that their defining characterist, the thing that makes them different from other Zalanthan humanoids and Terran humans, is their potential to become psionicists (and therefore also sorcerer kings, who need to be very skilled in both sorcery and psionics).  So I recomend one of these:

Homo Sapiens Incursus
(incursus -us m. [an attack , assault]; of the mind, [efforts, impulses].)

Homo Sapiens Cogito
(cogito -are [to turn over in the mind, to think, reflect])

Homo Sapiens Veneficus
(veneficus -a -um [poisonous, magical]; m. as subst. [a poisoner, sorcerer; a sorceress, witch].)  

[/derailment]


I doubt either of them has exceptional eyesight.  More likely adaptations would be heavy eyebrows and eyelashes or a transparent inner eyelid to protect the eye from dust and sand, and niether of those would actually improve vision, merely preserve it.


AC

[Carnage]

The spy glass idea is coolness, but on clear days only. Shouldn't enhance your ability to see in low vis.

Oh yeah, totally I never meant it as otherwise. Just this thread reminded me of it...I wonder if it will ever happen or if it can be done...

I voted neither by the way. I see no reason why any one type of pc should be able to see better through blowing sands than another.

According to Nessalin, the 'spy glass' idea doesn't fit into the game. But spectacles do.

[Pantoufle]

One of my biggest pet peeves about Arm is the way new concepts are introduced into the MUD.  When it was decided elves were an oppressed people, subject to racism from the dominant humans, it went from night to day in the blink of an eye.  The once elven market in the bazaar of Allanak vanished completely without explanation; it didn't blow up, nobody stripped it down, it just vanished.  There wasn't any roleplay to indicate the race of elves were gradually becoming more oppressed.  It just happened.  And we all had to pretend like this was the way things always were.

When Old Tuluk/the Northlands became "New Tuluk", all of a sudden these new customs and traditions were implemented instantaneously.  It's nice to flesh out details and develop concepts, but all of a sudden we had to assume this is the way things have always been.  All of a sudden,  the people of Tuluk were becoming emblazoned in tattoos, under the notion that this is the way of our people.  Well, I can tell you that when I had characters in Old Tuluk, there were no Tuluki caste tattoos.  A couple NPC commoners had descriptions of a few tattoos vaguely similar to the caste tattoos of today.  Their MDescs said something to the effect of "...covered in the purple and blue tattoos typical of the people of this region..." or something like that.  And from there the idea expanded, which is fine, it's a neat idea in and of itself.  But I can tell you right now, this is not how things have always been.

If you allow elves or rangers to suddenly see farther than they previously could, how will you explain the past?  Did the race of elves suddenly evolve overnight?  Has there been some sort of genetic change to the bloodline?  How will you explain that in the past elves could only see as far as a human but today they suddenly have enhanced vision?

[jhunter]

jhunter wrote:
Quote:
The spy glass idea is coolness, but on clear days only. Shouldn't enhance your ability to see in low vis.



Oh yeah, totally I never meant it as otherwise. Just this thread reminded me of it...I wonder if it will ever happen or if it can be done...

I voted neither by the way. I see no reason why any one type of pc should be able to see better through blowing sands than another.


According to Nessalin, the 'spy glass' idea doesn't fit into the game. But spectacles do.

That's stupid. I could see a primitive form of spyglass made with leather and a couple of pieces of glass. I don't see how that doesn't fit into the game....WEAK.

[Larrath]

A single pair of glasses made for someone *ridiculously* rich might be possible, but they will still be crude and only useful if your eyesight is seriously messed up.


A spyglass involves using two or more lenses in a single tube.  If these lenses are not made of clear glass or do not exactly fit each other, it will probably have some spots.  And two tiny spots on a spyglass are more than enough to make it useless for long distances, I'll say.


Zalanthan glass is simply not clear enough unless you have some magickal means or if you found some extremely talented glassmaker in Cenyr...and even then, it's pretty doubtful.

[Armaddict]

I -could- see it happening, but don't necessarily think it should happen.  Just because of lack of necessity.

Rangers, not all d-elves, just rangers....may have the knowledge to know where to gain the best vantage point.  The top of -that- dune, but not that one, will let us see through the valleys of those dunes over there and over top of that one.  Blah blah blah, etc.

And if there are spectacles, spyglasses are completely legit.  However, some engineer will have to invent them in game, because they can't just spring up out of nowhere.

Me, personally...I hate how zalanthan technology seems to follow the technology tree of Real Life.  Let's see some different ideas to get around the same problems we had in early civilization.

[jhunter]

And if there are spectacles, spyglasses are completely legit.

Exactly.


Lack of necessity? How about guiding people safely through the deserts...spotting dangers and landmarks from farther off...I can think of several reasons why if spectacles exist a primitive spyglass would too...in fact -more- necessary than spectacles IMHO.

[Armaddict]

I wasn't referring to the lack of necessity for spyglasses.  I was speaking of lack of necessity for desert elves and rangers being able to see further.

And I don't support spyglasses.  If you want an invention to be able to see further, in game....then goddammit, have your character invent something that wasn't invented in RL.  Stop bringing up -our- historical progressions in game, and come up with a -new solution to the problem-.

[Agent_137]

And I don't support spyglasses.  If you want an invention to be able to see further, in game....then goddammit, have your character invent something that wasn't invented in RL.  Stop bringing up -our- historical progressions in game, and come up with a -new solution to the problem-.

Or, you could write up a spyglass and how to craft it, and the materials needed, and send it in.

If there are lenses, there must be spyglasses. It isn't that much of a leap. So write it up!

[Armaddict]

That's exactly what I'm saying.

-Why- would the spyglass be invented, just because there are lenses?  Come up with a completely new, innovated -invention-.  Don't follow our -own- history, make Zalanthan history it's own, and unique.

No more of this uncreative shit where you just take something we invented in the past on earth, and bringing it into Zalanthas.

Make something -new- to see further.  Use your brain and some independent thought about what you have at your disposal, what would be a more logical line of thinking for a zalanthan, etc.

[Bestatte]

No matter good your vision is..if you have the eyes of a bald eagle and can spot a field mouse from 2 miles away...

You cannot see dick if there is a whirling sandstorm blocking your view.  Sand is an OBSTRUCTION to vision. It prevents even the best eyes from seeing not much further than their arms can stretch in front of them. They still have awesome vision - but it is blocked by sand. So - they can't see. Not because they have bad vision, but, because, it's, y'know, blocked.

Get it?

[Armaddict]

I don't think we're talking about seeing through storms.  This is all under the assumption of clear weather.

[Agent_137]

yea. bestatte, we derailed this shit quite a few posts back.

I know what you're saying, armaddict, and it's all well and good.

But it's also pretty difficult, and it doesn't have to be the ONLY way to do things.

By all means, if your character wants a problem solved in game, let him solve it in game, with in game thinking.

But if you have an omg-i-never-leave-the-city whore char, and you as a player think it'd be neat to have spyglasses in game, go ahead and write some up using IC materials, and send it to the mud.

I don't think it's -wrong- to steal from earth history, especially if it's used only as a starting point.

For instance:

Ok, I want to see some spyglasses in game.
Metal and perfect lenses are out, but i'll definately need some sort of lenses lined up.

Let's see, i could hollow out bone, cut some slices, insert some lenses. It'd be long, and you couldn't compress it, but it'd likely work. It'd be very zalanthian, but it's based off a concept from earth. That cool?

Yea, i'm just talking. Don't mind me. :mrgreen:

p.s. If you like this idea, steal it and send it to the mud. Cause i'm too lazy to do it, and i don't care about credit.

[jhunter]

And I don't support spyglasses. If you want an invention to be able to see further, in game....then goddammit, have your character invent something that wasn't invented in RL. Stop bringing up -our- historical progressions in game, and come up with a -new solution to the problem-.

Yeah...because I want to waste a slot for a pc just to create a spyglass item which logically could've been created already...Yeah...we're going to create something that could realistically work as a primitive spyglass...but isn't one...and NOONE is going to bitch about how it might not realistically work...

Sorry, but if you expect people to actually go through the work and study to INVENT something plausible with FACTUAL evidence to back it up so noone bitches for a GAME...then IMHO...why don't we take weapons, armors and clothes out of the game because they were all based on RL things first?

Make everyone start over and invent those IC before they exist??? :roll:

Sorry, but I think this is a total jackass way of thinking...if you want to take offense to it then it's up to you. :?

You actually want people to invent something...that realistically works...but hasn't already been done in real life...for a game???

Hey man, if I could do that...I wouldn't be wasting my time inventing them for a GAME.

Hey...would you be cool with it if we called it the seeinglotsafarther tube?

You know...because then...it wouldn't be called a spyglass... :twisted:

[Larrath]

I call dibs on MacGyveresque ginka-based hydrogen bombs!


I'm going to repeat this once:
Spectacles exist because some *nobles* need them.  Nobles are also able to pay the obcene amount these specialized, *CRUDE* lenses would cost them.
[Note the slight emphasis.]

Lenses that are actually useful as, you know, lenses, will probably be too expensive for any non-noble (and they don't really need spyglasses, they have underlings), and even if they are not, they are simply not of high enough quality that would allow the 'bonus stacking' spyglasses are based on.


As for the technology, well...look, nobody is expecting nobody to reinvent the wheel, but Zalanthas is a low-tech desert environment, and this is what things will focus on.  People can see very far in the flat deserts, and even further if they have a high ventage point.

Think about it like this...what is a spyglass going to show you that the naked eye won't?  You aren't going to spot people in camouflage that creep around the dunes with a spyglass from three miles away.

The only thing it could possibly show you is a mekillot from five leagues away, and I feel that even -that- is something of a stretch.  Five leagues is a LONG distance, and let's not forget that hot air gets that hazy effect going on and that desert sand is usually cleaner than beach sand and thus brighter and more reflective, etc. etc..

Armor and weapons are not extremely complicated concepts, and neither are clothes in a society where you usually get a sandstorm every week (not to mention the nomadic days).  This does not mean the next Vivaduan we get should explore chemistry and medicine and develop antibiotics.


This is all I have to say.

[jhunter]

I'm going to repeat this once:
Spectacles exist because some *nobles* need them. Nobles are also able to pay the obcene amount these specialized, *CRUDE* lenses would cost them.
[Note the slight emphasis.]

Merchant Houses...trade caravans and shit...sorry I guess we'll have to just agree to completely disagree on this....I just do not see it your way...if you can make a *CRUDE* lense that's even passable for use in spectacles...they would be passable to make a *CRUDE* seeinglotsafarther tube (spyglass *gasp*) as well.

The only thing it could possibly show you is a mekillot from five leagues away, and I feel that even -that- is something of a stretch. Five leagues is a LONG distance, and let's not forget that hot air gets that hazy effect going on and that desert sand is usually cleaner than beach sand and thus brighter and more reflective, etc. etc..

By that line of thinking...we shouldn't be able to see as far as we can IG on a clear day...which isn't true because we can. I don't see how this has any relevance at all...we're already stretching it by being able to see that far unaided anyway...so if your going to be -nitpicky- about it...then our sight should be reduced as is.

It's apparent that we're never going to see eye to eye on this (HAH!) so I'll be taking my *CRUDE* lenses and my piece of grooved leather...roll it up and fit the *CRUDE* lenses in each end of it and wandering off into the sands with my seeinglotsafarther tube.

[Krath]

I'm going to repeat this once:
Spectacles exist because some *nobles* need them. Nobles are also able to pay the obcene amount these specialized, *CRUDE* lenses would cost them.
[Note the slight emphasis.]

Merchant Houses...trade caravans and shit...sorry I guess we'll have to just agree to completely disagree on this....I just do not see it your way...if you can make a *CRUDE* lense that's even passable for use in spectacles...they would be passable to make a *CRUDE* seeinglotsafarther tube (spyglass *gasp*) as well.

The only thing it could possibly show you is a mekillot from five leagues away, and I feel that even -that- is something of a stretch. Five leagues is a LONG distance, and let's not forget that hot air gets that hazy effect going on and that desert sand is usually cleaner than beach sand and thus brighter and more reflective, etc. etc..

By that line of thinking...we shouldn't be able to see as far as we can IG on a clear day...which isn't true because we can. I don't see how this has any relevance at all...we're already stretching it by being able to see that far unaided anyway...so if your going to be -nitpicky- about it...then our sight should be reduced as is.

It's apparent that we're never going to see eye to eye on this (HAH!) so I'll be taking my *CRUDE* lenses and my piece of grooved leather...roll it up and fit the *CRUDE* lenses in each end of it and wandering off into the sands with my seeinglotsafarther tube.

This statement _IS_ true. That is how they developed the first Telescope and binoculars.

[Angela Christine]

Necessity is the mother of invention.


Is there a necessity here?  What do people want to see?  How much are they willing to pay to see it?  For the wealthy and educated (ie the government) there may be magick available that is far more effective than any invention.  For the wealthy without access to magick, scouts and outriders are the cost effective solution.  You've already got the bums sitting around the barracks, make 'em get out there and do stuff.  A team of scouts and/or spies is better than a telescope, because they can see more, hear more, and have the remarkable ability to go see what is northeast of your position, a place that is completely invisible by any other means.    I can see a telescope being useful for spying on enemy troops without them seeing you (unless they also have telescopes) but the incidences where a telescope will be more useful than a scout are few and far between.

I may be totally wrong, but my impression is that spyglasses were mainly needed by mariners.  At sea you can't just send a scout to see what is over there.  Ok, you could send some poor bastard over in a row boat, but that is going to take forever.  Whether you are using sails or rowers an unpowered ship has limited manuverability, and the ocean is big, so a device that lets you see if that island is northwest or north by northwest is extreamly useful.  If supplies are low it could even save your life.  Sure, they were also used overland, but are not as useful because of natural visual obstructions.  
Needless to say, mariners are very rare in the known world. :lol:  The silt sea has perpetually low visibility because of the silt, so a spyglass might be even less usefull on a silt skimmer than on land.


I think a spyglass could be moderately useful for some people, but wouldn't be a necessity.  It wouldn't address a persistant or urgent need, so the drive to invent it would be low.


AC

[jhunter]

The use of a spyglass item would make scouts more effective...I don't understand why noone can see this direct relation.
The funny thing is, I think the first of such things invented were actually used on land...and later were used at sea.

[Agent_137]

binoculars sell pretty well in real life, last i checked.

Must be some use. I think this is more an argument of degrees, here.

Sure, most people are gonna wanna drop the sid for them. But a few people might. The question is would these "few" people be enough in number that the spyglass would actually be produced by a regular merchant, or is the number of people who want it so low that it'd only be created on a case by case basis?

[Armaddict]

She's talking about why it was -invented-.

There's no necessity for it, as of now.

[Pantoufle]

Spectacles exist because some *nobles* need them.

Ceridwen Ironfell wore spectacles.

[jhunter]

There's no necessity for it, as of now.

That's a matter of opinion.

[Armaddict]

Ceridwen Ironfell was also a noble wannabe.  Who was given them by a noble.  Probably.  Heh.

[Pantoufle]

I think Karleon Kadius wore spectacles too, but he was a family merchant, so...