Who Needs a Kick in the Ass Most?

[marko]

I voted Kurac.

Why?

Because I feel that Kurac is an 'untouchable' at the moment.  

Yes, Kurac lost the outpost briefly but then they got a new (and very cool) camp that sprang up instantly (good for Kurac).  Then, after it all went down, Kurac had the outpost back and was in better shape.

When Luir's was invaded almost no one died.  That's not an ass whooping - that's a careful and perfectly planned retreat by the PCs and NPCs.  Good for Kurac again - shows they kick ass.

Now, the real why.  I don't think there have been consequences to actions that Kurac makes in a realistic manner in the game.  This continues to irk me.  When anyone does anything that goes up against a City State, I expect to see the City State stand up and do _something_ about it.  For example, when Kurac betrayed their 'complex agreements' with Allanak for Luir's and turned on Allanaki forces by slaughtering the last Red Robe of the northern Allanaki led forces (as publically accessible here: http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/timeline.cgi) what did Allanak do?

Nothing.

Here's a Merchant House that really isn't fundamental to Allanak's economy (don't give me that Kurac supplies all of Allanak's "desert gear" that's a recent thing and it isn't necessary to buy only from Kurac) that betrays Allanak to openly ally itself with Tuluk, has a military force that is large enough to attack Allanaki forces, and has its spice supply south of Allanak.  Yet, the response was a flabbergasting nothing.

I was amazed.  I would have expected Allanak to, at the very least, kick Kurac out of Allanak again.  Sure, Kurac may still have a smuggler's presence but to let them operate openly after not only defying but betraying the Empire?  To me that makes no sense at any political level.  Allanak is thereby inviting everyone to do that to them from thereon in.  Allanak became the ultimate fluff ball pushover.  

Allanak is a wounded beast.  It's been defeated time and time again.  It can be argued that Allanak's leadership is despairing and a pit of self pity.  But you know, I just can't see a City State that rose to be an Empire licking its wounds without trying for even petty revenge.  Kurac would be among the easiest targets.  Why?  Because all you really need to do to flex your 'we still have might' muscles is to toss them out of the city.  There, some of your pride is restored.  

Besides, Kurac did betray Allanak.  How can you reconcile that fact?  Open betrayal.  Open warfare and yet, there is Kurac's estate sitting pretty within Allanak with Kuraci family and operations going on.  It'd be like Japan and Pearl Harbor with the USA turning around and going, "Guys, it's alright, stay and sell 'Buy Japanese Goods' T-Shirts in Washington."

Responses I think would make sense from the extreme to the smallest:

Go take over Red Storm (or make agreements that Allanak now controls the streets) thereby cutting  Kurac off from its spice source.  Now Kurac has to figure out a way to appease Allanak or else destroy Allanak.  

Option two: Take control of Caravan Routes.  Board and confiscate all 'illegal' goods from Kurac wagons.  This forces spice to become more expensive (higher bribes to let it through the web or forces Kurac to find an alternative trade route).  Kurac experiences what it means to betray a City State.

Option Three: Kick Kurac out of Allanak.  Toss them out, confiscate the estate, kill anyone that remains.  

Get the intrigue zinging in the South.  Instead, it really seems to me that Allanak may as well be run by cowards and shadows.  The longer there is no response the more it seems that Allanak may as well be a non-entity.

As a political entity Allanak is currently the size of Azerbaijan.  Kurac wields the influence of Britain and Tuluk is the USA.  The Muark are Switzerland (neutral yet exceptionally powerful).  To me, the power ratio seems skewed.  

Please note, I think in game consequences to any major IC event should happen.  If an elven tribe were to slaughter a Merchant caravan - I want to see that merchant house flex it's muscle and actively hunt down the tribe. I do not believe any organization should appear to be inviolate.  And at this time, it really appears that Kurac cannot be touched and suffers no ill effect for anything it does.
            
I'd also like to say that Kurac is an awesome clan and has wonderful PCs and IMMs running it.  No bones about it, Kurac rocks and once consequences are attached to their actions, it'll just prove how awesome a clan it is.

[Forest Junkie]

Excellent post, marko.

[Kalden]

Wow, yeah, that was a very enlightening post.  

I'm reluctant to put down Kurac because the 'civil liberty' Merchant House amuses me so much. It makes me chuckle.

I want it to stay rich and powerful so I can make an elf - one who steals their spice, assassinates their leaders, and burns their buildings.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I have to agree with you, Marko. But I still vote for Allanak, because the day I hear about Allanak tossing Kurac out on their ear will be the day I tell myself, "Shit. Allanak is in for it now!"

That will be the day I defect from whatever clan I am playing in and go join Kurac. Boy, do I ever wanna march through the streets of Allanak as a victor over them!

[Xerokine]

While I agree with Marko's post above about the Kuraci, I firmly believe Allanak should take a severe beating. Not by the citizens of Tuluk, Red Storm, Kurac or anyone else.. Simply from a revolt of the people. I would dearly love to see open executions of Allanaki Templars ranging from the Blue Robes all the way to the highest. (Red Robes?) It would be an amazing event with the citizens of this cut-throat city-state displaying their power and flexing their muscles. Other than that, I would like to see the cities battle of Luirs Outpost and then go straight for those gypsies.

[Larrath]

Black robes.

Blue Robes (most of the templars, lowest level),
then Red Robes (significantly rarer, these are basically templar senior nobles),
and then Black Robes (who are the highest authority in Allanak).

There's also White Robes who seem to be dealing with gospel or whatever, but their rank doesn't list on the Allanaki social rankings document so there.

[/derailment]

I voted against the Tan Muark because I think they should have more serious enemies (or at least a city state, Gyppo-Prime!), but after reading Marko's post...down with Kurac!  Keel them!  Them and their freakin' [babble].

EDIT: As for a mob going against a Black Robe...I think I'd like to see that once.  :twisted:

[Mekeda]

I normally try not to respond to things like this but.. in this case there was so much misinformation given in  recent post that I feel compelled. There are always things that players never see, and this is case in point. This is one players perception of recent events that really bears very little reality to the events as experienced by most of the players of Kurac and other clans.

Yes, Kurac lost the outpost briefly but then they got a new (and very cool) camp that sprang up instantly (good for Kurac). Then, after it all went down, Kurac had the outpost back and was in better shape.

Tan Sarak took 4 ic years to build. There was major construction going on for that entire length of time. The merchants were moved there 2 to 3 per RL week to show the gradual shifting of people to the new location. It did not spring up overnight. If you have visited Tan'Sarak at ALL recently you might have noticed the same thing is happening in reverse. The merchants are slowly moving back to Luirs and Tan Sarak is becoming the wasteland it once was again.

Here's a Merchant House that really isn't fundamental to Allanak's economy (don't give me that Kurac supplies all of Allanak's "desert gear" that's a recent thing and it isn't necessary to buy only from Kurac) that betrays Allanak to openly ally itself with Tuluk, has a military force that is large enough to attack Allanaki forces, and has its spice supply south of Allanak. Yet, the response was a flabbergasting nothing.

Yet another case of one player not seeing the whole picture. Kurac was missing from Allanak for a long time and yet.. no one seems to remember it. I know that pc's were involved and had to bust ass to get Kurac back INTO Allanak. Just because you did not see anything does not mean it did not happen.

I'd also like to say that Kurac is an awesome clan and has wonderful PCs and IMMs running it. No bones about it, Kurac rocks and once consequences are attached to their actions, it'll just prove how awesome a clan it is.

Thank you for this, but please bear in mind that many of the best plots in Armageddon never become public knowledge. More  happens behind the scenes with the nobility and templarate than most commoners would be aware of. Also please bear in mind that things often may seem to spring up overnight because you haven't been to an area in 2 RL months and now... wham... a small tent city is there. You did not see all the slow steady painful work that went into the building, whereas people that are there, day in and day out, are seeing and experiencing all of the frustrations and hardships that rebuilding a completely destroyed outpost is entailing, that dismantling a tent city entails. If Kurac rocks, and I like to think it does, it's because the pc's ARE there day in and day out doing the things that seem, to someone who visits once in a while, rather miraculous.


Mekeda

[2 Lazy 2 Login ShaL]

I voted Kurac.

Ditto.

Why?

Because I feel that Kurac is an 'untouchable' at the moment. etc etc etc

Ditto again but I'm aware that I don't know details or machinations behind their power.
Some other things that baffle me is the undying, fanatical (unrealistic?) loyalty the whole entire house has.  They can't be betrayed, they seem to kill anyone that might even have a chance at doing so.
The Tan Muark can't be infiltrated, it's physically impossible to pretend to be a Muark. It's like Kurac finds every single person in the known world who is willing to work like a slave and almost immediately reward them with the kind loyalty that is only gained from years of trust building. They've managed to pin Allanak in by basically taking over Red Storm, they have Luir's, they have the tent city, they are closely allied with Allanak's mortal enemy and they are still selling tents and water gourds in the bazaar and krath knows what else since they are all sneaky bastards.

I know for a fact that Kurac works for that loyalty and they work hard at it. More clans should be like Kurac in "customer satisfaction" but in keeping with the harshness of the world... I'd love to see them utterly destroyed so that not one of those psycho people are left.   :mrgreen:

I voted for Kurac and it's one of my favorite clans.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Damn. Whatta buncha haters! But that's cool ... my next PC will be a Kuraci, then we'll see what fer, dammit...

[Incognito]

What this entire thread really means is....folks are itching for a change, and not just a small-ass change here and there, but one of Zalanthan proportions.

Another downfall of Luirs wont do.
Another downfall of Tuluk .....might do.
A downfall of Allanak might be cooler.

But,
I think we're all lookin for something bigger!

Something along the lines of:
The Dragon returning.
Muk and Tek goin one on one, for world domination.
Some other humanoid race (besides humans) gaining dominance.
Magick becoming openly accepted and practised? (perhaps hmmms).

i.e. basically something which will add a huge paragraph in the History of Zalanthas :)

Incog

[Pantoufle]

Again, not to turn this into a Hate Kurac thread, but since that clan has become somewhat of the focus here, I feel compelled to retort a little more.

In my perspective, the bottom line is this.  It doesn't matter how realistic the whole affair may be.  It doesn't matter if I (along with all other players of the game) do not know "The Big Picture", nor whether or not we are around to witness what goes down in some virtual backroom, hosted by virtual senior lords, templars and agents.  What matters is, who is so powerful it stagnates the game?

What's that you say?  Who?  

Kurac.  That's who.

The fact that Ten'Sarak took years to build and the shift back to Luir's took years (OOC months) to reclaim, doesn't really have any impact on me.  The bottom line is, they apparently have it all back and are none the worse for wear because of it.  They are still just as powerful as they were, and are still the seemingly invincible empire they have always been.  Even when Ten'Sarak absolves completely, this will still be the case.

I would like to see House Kurac have just as many weaknesses as their neighboring merchant monopolies, Kadius and Salarr.

[Quirk]

I voted Tuluk.

The way I look at it is: who most needs exciting RP? Who most needs intrigue? Allanak? No, they usually have four or five times as much going on as Tuluk, with thanks for that going in some measure to the lawless 'Rinthers. Kurac? No, they're always scheming and plotting and doing things. The Tan Muark? Perhaps, but they're a smaller playerbase than Tuluk and any kick to them would hardly stir anyone else. Tuluk however has settled into a bland and fairly happy place with slow currents of subdued intrigue and almost no overt conflicts. For some players it's likely considerably less harsh than the reality they live in. The odd cataclysmic event may stir things up, kill a few old characters, but it doesn't seem to make for a big change. Tuluk needs something to happen that will create lasting tension. It needs to be harsher. "Subtlety" has to become a word that describes how something is done rather than an excuse for not doing anything at all.

Quirk

[Armaddict]

Thank god someone agrees with me about Tuluk and subtlety.

[Anonymous]

What matters is, who is so powerful it stagnates the game?

What's that you say?  Who?  

Kurac.  That's who.

Can you explain exactly how they are 'so powerful it stagnates the game'?  The only thing I keep hearing is that they lost Luir's for a little bit and then got it right back.  Ok, but how does that make them 'so powerful it stagnates the game'?

The biggest reason I could come up with for them being 'so powerful that it stagnates the game' is that my time in Kurac saw a lot of very longlived PCs which, unfortunately, normally translates into an unrealistic amount of power in game.

But that's not a problem with Kurac, that's a problem with the game in and of itself.  A 30 year old female merchant played for a RL year is going to have more behind-the-scenes power than a 35 year old noble PC that just entered the game.  I don't know how to fix something like that, but I'm sure having a good number of longlived PCs is what causes the large part of the perception that Kurac is 'overpowered'.

[Anonymous]

"Subtlety" has to become a word that describes how something is done rather than an excuse for not doing anything at all.

Do you have the other half of this medallion?  Because you phrased exactly what I've been feeling for a while now.  Still, I'm willing to accept that a lot of stuff goes on behind the scenes.  But "subtelty' translating into taking so long to do something that it never gets done has long been a concern of mine.

[Pantoufle]

Can you explain exactly how they are 'so powerful it stagnates the game'? The only thing I keep hearing is that they lost Luir's for a little bit and then got it right back. Ok, but how does that make them 'so powerful it stagnates the game'?

I think anything that is too powerful innevitably leads to stagnation.  All room for growth is severed when you are all powerful and all seeing.  Imagine if Superman were immune to kryptonite.  The question is whether you think House Kurac, the Tan Muark, or anyone else is too powerful.  Me, personally?  Yeah, I think House Kurac tends to be a bit too powerful for a merchant house.  But that's just me.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I would like to see House Kurac have just as many weaknesses as their neighboring merchant monopolies, Kadius and Salarr.

Why? Both Salaar and Kadius are Houses that started in the cities. They are city dependant. Kurac began in the desert. They need no city. If they were kicked outta both cities and Red Storm, they would still survive. Why? Because Kurac is the desert House, and there is no other answer.

[Pantoufle]

Kurac originates in Tuluk actually.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Kurac originates in Tuluk actually.

The House itself might. The forefathers didn't.

[Anonymous]

Can you explain exactly how they are 'so powerful it stagnates the game'? The only thing I keep hearing is that they lost Luir's for a little bit and then got it right back. Ok, but how does that make them 'so powerful it stagnates the game'?

I think anything that is too powerful innevitably leads to stagnation.  All room for growth is severed when you are all powerful and all seeing.  Imagine if Superman were immune to kryptonite.  The question is whether you think House Kurac, the Tan Muark, or anyone else is too powerful.  Me, personally?  Yeah, I think House Kurac tends to be a bit too powerful for a merchant house.  But that's just me.

You made this all clear before.  What I'm asking for is beyond losing Luir's and getting it back in less than a year, how are they so powerful?

I haven't seen any examples of how Kurac is so powerful that they can stagnate the game.

Personally I hardly think that Kurac's getting Luir's back is an example of how overpowered they are because my understanding was that a lot happened during the last HRPT which made that possible and didn't involve Kurac, but I'm not on staff and wasn't directly involved in what happened so I could be wrong.

[Seeker]

I think House Kurac tends to be a bit too powerful for a merchant house.

They are still just as powerful as they were, and are still the seemingly invincible empire they have always been.

I think that the issue of "powerful" is confusing, here.  The Great Merchant House Kurac is every bit as vulnerable as any other Merchant House or other largely virtual entity on Zalanthas.  They do have rivals and enemies and both good and sour relationships.  They have their unique weakness and unique strengths also.  

Like quite a few clans, a large portion of the RP in Kurac revolves around being an oppressed entity struggling for survival in a challenging and hostile enviroment, and events in the last two decades have shown that they can get the crap whalloped out of them on a whim of fate, and that nothing is EVER secure.

Listing their holdings, or lack of holdings, really does nothing to demonstrate their potential impact upon world events or rank their significance in the world.  Kurac's -actual- power in Armageddon and upon Zalathas is pretty carefully balanced.  

It is ludicrous to infer that a desert-based Merchant House will ever conquer a major city-state, or that Kuracis own Red Storm. Tek and the Sand Lord are just too potent, as they should be.

What, I think, is happening is that their "perceived influence" is just much greater.  As a group of players, the clan of Kurac might be perceived as being unusually effective, but that does not translate to the Merchant House of Kurac dominating the world.  

The poll question is asking who needs a smack-down.  That is cool.  It seems, in the answers, the Muark are targeted because they have a secure homeland, and Kurac is targeted because it seems too effective.


Seeker

[Ix Machina]

I just want to point out that there were a couple 'facts' claimed about Salarr that are not entirely true in this thread.

While I don't really mind rumors and myths in the game about things, even if they are dredged from the depths of one's imagination, I'd appreciate that these opinions and/or assumptions weren't passed off as truth, but merely what they are in an OOC context.

Essentially, what this means is that if you do not have access to documents about the history of specific clans or might remember but aren't sure from when you might have had this information, don't post as fact.

Along that vein, many times history of a clan is part of OOCly-restricted clan  documents and should not be pasted or spread on the GDB (these documents are password protected for a reason).

So, in essence, I'd like to ask that people please use discretion when posting their assumptions and if they are tempted to post out histories which are kept neatly behind password-protected clan webpages for a reason.

Thanks!

P.S. This is a very entertaining discussion, in the meanwhile and puts forth a lot of opinions.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Thank god someone agrees with me about Tuluk and subtlety.

[Callisto]

Thank god someone agrees with me about Tuluk and subtlety.

[sancho]

Kurac is so powerful because Kurac has to deal with shit directly, and Kurac has the best ST in the game (Mekeda).  Constantly struggling produces a lot of activity for our little clan.  Those of you saying "Kurac took a little punch in the face." need to really wise up.  Has Allanak or Tuluk ever been made unavailable to the playerbase for 7 RL months? Those are REAL months, not IC months.  Don't even start about TenSarak.  It took time to set up, had nowhere near the convenience of Luir's, and all the rooms were coded as harsh terrain so there were still movement costs.

If you think Kurac always comes out ahead and is all sunshine and hugs, you've never gotten promoted high enough.  Kurac takes more shit than any other clan in the game, no contest.  For the same reason you're all right when you say Kurac is the clan you don't want to screw with.  Kurac is good at the revenge business because the other clans give us so many reasons for revenge.

As for running Red Storm, where do you people come up with this shit?  Kurac has a gaming room and a warehouse store in Red Storm.  Woo.  Man, they have the Sand Lord on the run.  If you check the docs, you'll find out Kurac is only #2 in Red Storm's economy.  Kadius helped build Freil's Rest; does that mean they pretty much run Tuluk?

When it comes down to an asskicking, you have to ask who needs the activity an asskicking would stir up.  Kurac?  Kurac's perpetual asskicking has made it so active they're bigger than any other clan by leaps and bounds. No, if anyone needs an asskicking, it's Tuluk.  Sure, the Gypsies are overdue for a real enemy that actually hurts one of them, but how much activity would it create?  Tuluk, on the other hand, is so slow-paced that characters are coded to age at half-speed.  Okay, I made that up, but when was the last time something not hunting-related put people at risk in Tuluk?

My vote: Tuluk.  Keep kicking Kurac's ass and it'll consume half the playerbase.