Who Needs a Kick in the Ass Most?

[Pantoufle]

Nothing pisses me off more than someone who has too much power.  It just gets boring real quick.  I used to hate Allanak more than anything, back when they owned the Known World.  I was all pro-Tuluk (during the time Tuluk was nothing more than a set of ghostly ruins) and wanted nothing more than to spit in Allanak's eye and kick them off my homeland.  Well, lo and behold when the Occupation ended and Tuluk rose to power I got bored of that and went down south to the slightly diminished Allanaki empire.  Suddenly I loved the place.  Weakness and defeat really gives someone/something character.  Anything that is "invincible" is boring, regardless of how realistic it may be.  I guess I'm like the true neutral druid who joins the losing side, only to turn tail and join their enemy once they are getting too powerful.  You know, keep the balance.

So, if you had to decide, who would you give a black eye?  Who do you think NEEDS a black eye?  I'm not saying let's destroy Clan X or City B, I'm just saying there are some groups out there who are too powerful for their own good and need a little asskicking to put them in their place.  So here's my list of options.

Allanak

As already stated, they've had their kick in the ass.  But maybe you think they need more?  I wouldn't complain.

Tuluk

One could argue these sorry fucks need to be put down.  And this time for good.  Hah hah, just joking.  But serious, maybe you vote they need an(other) asskicking?  I wouldn't shed a tear, that's for sure.

The Tan Muark

As if it isn't enough they have their own lush and very likely impenetrable kingdom, nobody seems to really dislike these guys.  Sure, some IC board post pops up now and again saying people are whispering about the death of SoAndSo, putting the blame on the gypsies (just because).  But by and large everyone thinks they're a "cool" bunch, and I can't think of anyone offhand truly at odds with them.  Before you argue against that statement, I'm saying TRULY at odds.  What, Allanak doesn't like them you say?  Tough shit, they go there whenever the fuck they please and they aren't really given much hassle beyond a few whisperings.  Big whoop.  If you think that it's high time someone give these pansy jackasses a pummeling, click here and help burn Tyn Dashra to the ground.

House Kurac

I'm sorry.  I really am.  They've long been one of my favorite clans and I'd definately have to say they are probably the coolest of the merchant houses.  But for chrissake!  Someone kick these fuckers around a bit for once, will ya?  Wait, what?  Allanak gives them shit you say?  Gimme a break.  Ban spice all you want, they're still allowed in the city and have their own estate.  They were kicked out for like, what?  2 days.  I say we push these sumsabitches out for good!  What's this you say?  They lost their Outpost?  Aww, boohoo.  Yeah, tough shit.  They got it right back again -- as if that was a surprise!  Someone needs to strip these fuckers of a little power, I say.  PERMANENTLY.  Now who's with me!?

These are really the only groups I think which may have too much power for their own good.  I'm obviously not going to put groups like Red Storm up here, or the Akei'ta Var, because they're small and they know it.  I've put an "other" option here, though, in case someone thinks of someone I didn't mention.  Just post who they are and why.

And of course, arguably there will always be super powers, but that's what makes them so annoying.  And every once in a while, it's nice when the power shifts.

[Bestatte]

I voted for Allanak. They have no right to exist. All them filthy gemmers, and that Tek guy and his STEEL dragon statue..I mean jeez - melt the fucker down and give me a REAL katana for chrissakes! Not to mention the oppression - and where the hell are they keeping the plantlife? Behind walls, where only nobles can see them? And the nobles' aides, and guards, and best buddies, and slaves, and anyone else who manages to suck up to Lord Fancypants..just open the thing to anyone, or better yet, tear the whole city down and send the population scattering to the four winds. You wanna see a pretty flower? Get off your ass and ride to a place that grows them, you lazy sumbiches.

Lazy good for nothing slackers, the bunch of'em! Why when I was a kid, knee-high to a halfling, we had to walk to the nearest watering hole, which was a good 80 leagues away, over 40 dunes, through 33 packs of gith and mantises, and fight tooth and nail with our fists to get that ONE sip of murky piss-laden water.

Kill'em all and let Muk Utep sort them all out, I say!

[Seeker]

Nobody needs a can of whop-ass opened on them like the fekkin' gypsies.

Seeker

[SpyGuy]

Fek the gypsies, Kurac needs a serious whoppin'.  Like dragged into the streets, American History X bite the curb style whoopin'.  All a bunch of prissy spiced out coniving little pricks.  Yeah, you heard me!  Watch your back Mr. -da.

[Krath]

I think everyone needs an asswhooping..However, I do also believe getting beat up
once in a while will toughen you up....Mansa, I'm coming for you at the APM!!!

[Pantoufle]

But serious, guys (and girls).  Just make sure when you vote it's who you OOCly think needs a beating, not because you play in Tuluk now and in your present incarnation you are raised to believe Allanak is the enemy, or whatever.

I voted for House Kurac, for example, and that doesn't mean I wouldn't ever play in the clan again, on the contrary.  Nor does it mean my present character necessarily hates them.  I (the player, not the character) just think that clan might be cooler if they had some clearer enemies, a group of people who pose a serious threat to their well being (and not some group of now defeated, sorcerer-led mantis who have had a PC population of 0).  You know, even superman has his weakness, it's only fair.

I think Tuluk and Allanak are relatively on equal footing these days, and that's cool with me.  I just didn't like Allanak during the Occupation because that city was the MUD.  It was like, Allanak = Armageddon MUD and vice versa.  If you wanted to play a cutpurse rogue, you had only one option: Allanak, because all other locales had a death sentance for those who are caught, and you don't learn how to steal without failing.  Everywhere you went it was Allanak, Allanak, Allanak.  I'm not opposed to one group being more powerful than the other, but not so obscenely so that it suffocates the rest of the gameworld.

As for the gypsies, I probably could have voted for them instead, though I've never played one to know the whole scoop.  But I'd still like to see them beat into submission and have it apparent that they, too, have enemies (enemies that pose a serious threat, for that matter).

[sarahjc]

Kurac, someone take down Kurac! Yeah, so they can't sell spice in Allanak. Boo Hoo..

But here, we will make that up to you, have Luirs Outpost, Your own F@cking city, and here, have Ten'surak, Shops in the north and a Major Tavern. They practically run Red Storm. Someone take those bitches out!

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

You people do drugs. I used to play in Kurac a long time ago, and I'll tell you now, they only have one weakness...

...dammit, and I forgot what it was. I vote for Allanak.

[WhiteRanger]

I absolutely posatively love Kurac....and one day...you mark my words, they will rise to power and over throw one if not both of the city states. But as for who I want to see take a whoopin the most....everyone, I want to see all city states and cultures crumble into the sand. I want to see the feking lord of lords, the Dragon himself come back and make us beg as we spread into a widely dispersed culture of nomadic tribes once more...FUCK YEA! I want to see the nobility beg and plead when all of the dune hopping half-breed wild men are the truely powerful ones once again.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I agree with White Ranger.

[Seeker]

If the Dragon comes back, it will be because the Gypsies sold us all out.


Seeker

[Bestatte]

If the Dragon comes back, it will be because the Gypsies sold us all out.


Seeker

Which is why it's a good idea to make nice with the Gypsies.

[EvilRoeSlade]

And a better idea to SMITE THEM ALL

I voted for Tuluk though.  I couldn't help myself, it was like a primal instinct.

[Pantoufle]

I want to see all city states and cultures crumble into the sand. I want to see the feking lord of lords, the Dragon himself come back and make us beg as we spread into a widely dispersed culture of nomadic tribes once more

Well, the problem with that sentiment is that it would ruin the game.  This MUD requires versatility.  Nuking all the city-states effectively ruins the possibility of any socialite roles.  It's nice that I can go from being an extreme socialite in one incarnation to a rugged outdoorsman in the next and back again (with other possibilities along the way).  Completely wiping out the cities removes not only socialites (including the leaders AND their sycophants), but it removes all manner of rogues except desert raiders -- and I don't know about you, but I rather enjoy city slicker cutpurses myself.  There are so many city based roles that you would lose.  So yeah, it removes a lot from the game and narrows it down to only one possibility: tribal, outdoors, ranger types.

Speaking only for myself, I'd just like to see certain groups get beat into submission, not wiped out entirely.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'd like to see the world degenerate in VNPC leadership, and rely more on PC leaders ... IE: Tribal bands, small civilizations, etc...

[EvilRoeSlade]

That isn't correct.  Just because you're a socialite doesn't mean you aren't allowed to have any ability to defend yourself or survive in the desert.  A setting in which the Dragon had returned to sink his claws in the known world would just require a different kind of socialite, one who travels through the harsh wastelands to the encampment of another tribe in order to seek crucial alliances.

Being a pickpocket, assassin, or burglar would also be possible.  All that they require is for the city/wilderness flag to be removed so that they can hide in both areas.  Now you have a trio of classes that are capable of sneaking into enemy encampments (or even the domain of The Dragon), to cause mayhem, steal crucial supplies, and spy on their foes.

I think that nearly any role would be possible under some variant or another, as long as you use your imagination.

[Mekeda]

Man, Kurac just GOT their ass kicked. Memories are certainly short.  No one remembers the fact that Tan'Sarak sprang into existance because of the fact that Mantis took Luirs from Kurac for 7 Game years?

Mekeda

[Krath]

SHHH! Imms cant Vote on this poll nor do they have a say! Talking privlidges REVOKED!!! J/k

[Forest Junkie]

Man, Kurac just GOT their ass kicked. Memories are certainly short.  No one remembers the fact that Tan'Sarak sprang into existance because of the fact that Mantis took Luirs from Kurac for 7 Game years?

Then they got it right back.  :wink:

Damned mantis, I say we kill them all. Oh yeah...And destroy Tan Muark.

[Anonymous]

I think it's funny to see the 'Kill Kurac' posts considering that if Kurac was given center stage (or at least shared it) on a third HRPT in a row people would probably complain about how Kurac gets all the fun.

Who hasn't gotten their ass kicked in a while?  The gypsies.  Holed up in their precious little land wanking each other off.  Bastards.

[X-D]

That was not an ASS KICKING Mekeda, that was a simple punch in the face. They lost very little overall, were basicly just displaced temperarily.

Now, if half the family would have died, and if they would have lost 2/3 of assets and 90% of employee's/guards and if Luirs would have been razed and somebody would have taken over the spice trade in the meantime, now, THAT'S an ASS KICKING:)

[Pantoufle]

Man, Kurac just GOT their ass kicked. Memories are certainly short. No one remembers the fact that Tan'Sarak sprang into existance because of the fact that Mantis took Luirs from Kurac for 7 Game years?

Fair enough, you're right.  But here are the facts:

Everything they've lost they got right back again.  

(I don't know if this is IC info or not, I don't even know the answer to this, but doesn't Ten'Sarak still exist as a secondary outpost of sorts?  It sounds to me like they got major hookups for having TEMPORARILY lost their outpost.  If I were Mr. Kurac, himself, and I had to decide if I wanted to go through that whole imbroglio all over again, I'd say "Sure, why not!" knowing that the end result will be more property!  In other words, "Yes, I will gladly have my ass kicked if it means getting MORE hookups, please.  Kick my ass.  I am waiting!")

They dominate Red Storm.

They own an entire lush estate relatively comparable to a noble estate, in fact, in Allanak.

They own an entire lush estate relatively comparable to a noble estate, in fact, in Tuluk.

They own their own little mini city-state where all the -di's and -da's serve as a templarate of sorts.  Well, okay, yeah, it's vastly different, but still, they call the shots.  They own whomever enters their little (or not so little) piece of land.

[Edited a bit out just because] The point is they have everything and, from my vantage point, seem to be omnipotent all-seeing entities.  The age old adage is, "Nobody fucks with Kurac!"  Why?  What, they can't have enemies?  I bet you ten fucking dollars I could never ever infiltrate House Kurac because they'd lay the smack down on my ass before I could blink.  I also bet you another ten on top of that that I could infiltrate House Kadius or House Salarr without too much trouble.

One more (possible) fact.  All the shit that's been thrown at them, I'm willing to bet (gosh, I could lose a lot of money here), were entirely NPC ran.   This whole mantis invasion sure sounded like it wasn't any band of PCs working to overthrow House Kurac.  Nobody recruited MY character to sign up for the mantis army (and he would of joined!).  When it was Nak vs. Tuluk there were PCs on both sides, see what I mean?  So where is the *PC* threat against House Kurac?  It ain't there.

Now, please Please PLEASE bear in mind, I ain't dissing Kurac.  If I had to rattle off my top favorite 5 clans Kurac'd be one of the top 2 or 3 (even though I haven't played in it in many moons).   Kurac's concept is cool as shit.  Like I said before, I hated Allanak then grew to like it -- AFTER they got their ass kicked.  I just want to see Kurac get the piss beat out of them and for them to stay a little crippled, not get right back up and be all the more powerful for it.  Like, if they had lost Luir's permanently, that would of been so neat, I think.  And look, it's just my opinion.  I recognize the fact that I maybe haven't looked at the entire picture (or don't know the entire picture enough to judge).  It's just a fun little poll, besides.

[Agent_137]

It's just a fun little poll, besides.

Good point, after your treatise.

: -P

[wizturbo]

The Gypsies are not loved by everyone.

[Armaddict]

I say the gypsies.

Someone should take that lush land, it's probably the -best- land in the known world, rivaled maybe by one other area.

It's got all sorts of unique, useable wildlife, it's a defensible place...I think one of the sorcerer-kings would want it, and they have the power and manpower to take it.

Rar!  Make gypsies nomads between all the cities!

[Pantoufle]

Actually (and just so I don't seem like I was trying to conjure up an anti-Kurac thread), if I could revote I would select all of the above.

I'm not racist, I hate all people equally.

[jhunter]

That was not an ASS KICKING Mekeda, that was a simple punch in the face. They lost very little overall, were basicly just displaced temperarily.

Now, if half the family would have died, and if they would have lost 2/3 of assets and 90% of employee's/guards and if Luirs would have been razed and somebody would have taken over the spice trade in the meantime, now, THAT'S an ASS KICKING:)

Damned skippy X-D.  

They need to go down...hard. :twisted:

[wizturbo]

I do agree with the Tan Muarki lands being strangely unconquered when they are supposedly so nice.  I'll just assume for the moment, there is some good reason they aren't being taken.

Also keep in mind, Sorceror-Kings might conquer places not so much for their pretty landscape...but perhaps for more mystical properties?

[Dakkon Black]

Yeah lets attack kurac again, that'd be fun...  :roll:  Why not one of the several other groups that haven't had any action hrm?? There's no way those gypsies haven't knocked enough skirts to warrant a good bit of antipathy. And 'nak? I mean, when was the last good south vs north war hrm? I say we get off the pounding away some pitiful merchant house and onto some serious carnage  

[Callisto]

I voted "other".

I think the game would be a lot better off if there wasn't so much "virtual power" running things.

It'd be great to see Allanak and Tuluk reduced to ruins, places like Red Storm and Liurs becoming more popular. I would like to see merchant houses come into ruin and have to fight tooth and nail with each other to maintain a few trade houses and such.

Right now the game is far too civilized and relaxed, in my opinion.

[Delirium]

I voted "other".

I think the game would be a lot better off if there wasn't so much "virtual power" running things.

It'd be great to see Allanak and Tuluk reduced to ruins, places like Red Storm and Liurs becoming more popular. I would like to see merchant houses come into ruin and have to fight tooth and nail with each other to maintain a few trade houses and such.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I voted "other".

I think the game would be a lot better off if there wasn't so much "virtual power" running things.

It'd be great to see Allanak and Tuluk reduced to ruins, places like Red Storm and Liurs becoming more popular. I would like to see merchant houses come into ruin and have to fight tooth and nail with each other to maintain a few trade houses and such.

[X-D]

The7DeadlyVenomz wrote:

Delirium wrote:

Callisto wrote:
I voted "other".

I think the game would be a lot better off if there wasn't so much "virtual power" running things.

It'd be great to see Allanak and Tuluk reduced to ruins, places like Red Storm and Liurs becoming more popular. I would like to see merchant houses come into ruin and have to fight tooth and nail with each other to maintain a few trade houses and such.

Would be SO sweet, but have them be semi-populated ruins of lawless no mans land...drool.

[Quirk]

Amen to Callisto.

[moab]

I was the first to vote for Tuluk.  Why?
Because they got their asses kicked and suddenly turned into this artsy-fartsy HUGE city.  What did we drop on them?  Dragon-crap?

[Pantoufle]

I voted "other".

I think the game would be a lot better off if there wasn't so much "virtual power" running things.

It'd be great to see Allanak and Tuluk reduced to ruins, places like Red Storm and Liurs becoming more popular. I would like to see merchant houses come into ruin and have to fight tooth and nail with each other to maintain a few trade houses and such.

I'm not certain I would like the game without any city setting whatsoever, but I have to agree with this sentiment otherwise, yeah.

I sometimes think that (clanned) PCs really don't have any power.  You want to brag to me that your templar has been promoted to Red Robe?  That doesn't mean shit because you still can't do anything without e-mailing your clan imm and, basically, getting permission first.  I mean that is the bottom line, no matter how you argue it.  But, whereas, if I make some lone assassin who has a compulsion for blowing things up, I don't have to ask anyone for permission to bomb your sorry ass.  I'm just going to go do it, and if anyone wants to try and stop me ... bring it!

Now, I'm not saying down with the immortals, let's make this OUR game, bring your pitchfork and stuff like that.  All I'm getting at is ... look, for real man, the virtual nonentities of the game are way way overpowered, resulting in next to zero power for the PCs.

[Halaster]

Now, I'm not saying down with the immortals, let's make this OUR game, bring your pitchfork and stuff like that.  

Bring it!

:twisted:

[Krath]

I think Halaster needs an Asskicking! Lets get him! :twisted:

[Pantoufle]

You may now consider Halaster as part of the "Other" option .

[Mr.Camel]

Okay, Krath. You first, I'm right behind you.


On topic:

I like Callisto's idea. Down with the sorcerer kings. Well, maybe not all the way down. Lets see more struggle for power.

[Krath]

*attempts to kick Halaster in the *censored*


Shit...I only have 1 1d10 dice..Someone give me another.

[Sandstorm Phoenix]

I voted for the gypsies.  

The fact that Kurac is even in the poll shows how pimp they are.  I say in retaliation for all this bitch-crying about Kurac taking a punch in the nose and -still- coming out with a profit that they just spark a dun invasion of those fat grazing lands hidden behind the Muark Gated Community.  Turn the whole thing into one big pepper farm.

[WhiteRanger]

Pantoufle Wrote:

Well, the problem with that sentiment is that it would ruin the game. This MUD requires versatility. Nuking all the city-states effectively ruins the possibility of any socialite roles. It's nice that I can go from being an extreme socialite in one incarnation to a rugged outdoorsman in the next and back again (with other possibilities along the way). Completely wiping out the cities removes not only socialites (including the leaders AND their sycophants), but it removes all manner of rogues except desert raiders -- and I don't know about you, but I rather enjoy city slicker cutpurses myself. There are so many city based roles that you would lose. So yeah, it removes a lot from the game and narrows it down to only one possibility: tribal, outdoors, ranger types.

You bet your ass we would lose the city classes all together....DOWN WITH THE COIN PURSE SNATCHING SKINNYS, OVER FED MERCHANTS, AND THOSE RAIDERS IN ROBES CALLED THE TEMPLARS, I WANT TO SEE THEM ALL SACRIFICED AS A TRIBUTE TO A HIGHER MORE CARNAL POWER. THEN WE MAY MOVE BACK INTO OUR MOTHER THE DEEP DESERT, AND SURVIVE AS MEN SHOULD, BY OUR GRIT AND STRENGTH.



[/quote]

[Forest Junkie]

Carnal Whiteranger? Kinky, but no. We are not da sexmud

[adgohan]

Voted Kurac also.

With Ten'Sarak as their own city-state and merchant headquarters, they have significant power. Add to that an entire fortified outpost (regardless of whether it was taken once or not, they got it back and it gave them another city in the process) that is in the middle of the world, one of the most effective and strategic locations in Zalanthas.
Significant (if not overpowering in some) presense in every civilized culture or city on Zalanthas I can think of where Player Characters play, and incredible resources from all this.

Second vote would have been gypsy, was a tough call between the two. They've never really been bothered and they pretty much have their own theme park sitting in the middle of a nigh-impenetrable mountain range. Must be nice. =P

[Delirium]

If I had to vote, I'd probably say gypsy. But only because that glib bastard cheated me.. AND ran off with my lover!

And they steal babies!

[jmordetsky]

I voted "other".

I think the game would be a lot better off if there wasn't so much "virtual power" running things.

It'd be great to see Allanak and Tuluk reduced to ruins, places like Red Storm and Liurs becoming more popular. I would like to see merchant houses come into ruin and have to fight tooth and nail with each other to maintain a few trade houses and such.

I'm not certain I would like the game without any city setting whatsoever, but I have to agree with this sentiment otherwise, yeah.

I sometimes think that (clanned) PCs really don't have any power.  You want to brag to me that your templar has been promoted to Red Robe?  That doesn't mean shit because you still can't do anything without e-mailing your clan imm and, basically, getting permission first.  I mean that is the bottom line, no matter how you argue it.  But, whereas, if I make some lone assassin who has a compulsion for blowing things up, I don't have to ask anyone for permission to bomb your sorry ass.  I'm just going to go do it, and if anyone wants to try and stop me ... bring it!

Now, I'm not saying down with the immortals, let's make this OUR game, bring your pitchfork and stuff like that.  All I'm getting at is ... look, for real man, the virtual nonentities of the game are way way overpowered, resulting in next to zero power for the PCs.

If I may quote myself from a post by Quirk on Wed Apr 07, 2004

*takes a deep breathe*

Dismantle the god kings and knock down the city states

Set up smaller feudal territories ruled by the remaining noble houses/Templars and outposts and caravan camps run by merchant houses in their places.

Make them constantly fight for influence, repel the constantly raiding tribal factions etc, etc

Zalanthas sans uberpowerful ultimate power wielding god kings would create a world that was really filled with conflict.

*joe the radical steps off of his pulpit and gets back to work*

I still feel this would make for a cooler game...and if you gave each noble house it's own little baby kingdom, there would still be socialite roles....they would just be more...precarious.

You guys are so April.

[Ghost]

Allanak has a rather overgrown ass.

So.. You now know what I voted dont you?

[Anonymous]

Allanak has a rather overgrown ass.

Between the two cities Tuluk is on a big winning streak right now, but that is to be expected, I guess, considering how high Tuluki morale must be, in general, it being only some 40 or so years (I'm guessing) since they ran the invaders out of town.

[Cuusardo]

Shit...I only have 1 1d10 dice..Someone give me another.

Jeez, what kind of gamer ARE you???

I vote for Krath!!

[marko]

I voted Kurac.

Why?

Because I feel that Kurac is an 'untouchable' at the moment.  

Yes, Kurac lost the outpost briefly but then they got a new (and very cool) camp that sprang up instantly (good for Kurac).  Then, after it all went down, Kurac had the outpost back and was in better shape.

When Luir's was invaded almost no one died.  That's not an ass whooping - that's a careful and perfectly planned retreat by the PCs and NPCs.  Good for Kurac again - shows they kick ass.

Now, the real why.  I don't think there have been consequences to actions that Kurac makes in a realistic manner in the game.  This continues to irk me.  When anyone does anything that goes up against a City State, I expect to see the City State stand up and do _something_ about it.  For example, when Kurac betrayed their 'complex agreements' with Allanak for Luir's and turned on Allanaki forces by slaughtering the last Red Robe of the northern Allanaki led forces (as publically accessible here: http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/timeline.cgi) what did Allanak do?

Nothing.

Here's a Merchant House that really isn't fundamental to Allanak's economy (don't give me that Kurac supplies all of Allanak's "desert gear" that's a recent thing and it isn't necessary to buy only from Kurac) that betrays Allanak to openly ally itself with Tuluk, has a military force that is large enough to attack Allanaki forces, and has its spice supply south of Allanak.  Yet, the response was a flabbergasting nothing.

I was amazed.  I would have expected Allanak to, at the very least, kick Kurac out of Allanak again.  Sure, Kurac may still have a smuggler's presence but to let them operate openly after not only defying but betraying the Empire?  To me that makes no sense at any political level.  Allanak is thereby inviting everyone to do that to them from thereon in.  Allanak became the ultimate fluff ball pushover.  

Allanak is a wounded beast.  It's been defeated time and time again.  It can be argued that Allanak's leadership is despairing and a pit of self pity.  But you know, I just can't see a City State that rose to be an Empire licking its wounds without trying for even petty revenge.  Kurac would be among the easiest targets.  Why?  Because all you really need to do to flex your 'we still have might' muscles is to toss them out of the city.  There, some of your pride is restored.  

Besides, Kurac did betray Allanak.  How can you reconcile that fact?  Open betrayal.  Open warfare and yet, there is Kurac's estate sitting pretty within Allanak with Kuraci family and operations going on.  It'd be like Japan and Pearl Harbor with the USA turning around and going, "Guys, it's alright, stay and sell 'Buy Japanese Goods' T-Shirts in Washington."

Responses I think would make sense from the extreme to the smallest:

Go take over Red Storm (or make agreements that Allanak now controls the streets) thereby cutting  Kurac off from its spice source.  Now Kurac has to figure out a way to appease Allanak or else destroy Allanak.  

Option two: Take control of Caravan Routes.  Board and confiscate all 'illegal' goods from Kurac wagons.  This forces spice to become more expensive (higher bribes to let it through the web or forces Kurac to find an alternative trade route).  Kurac experiences what it means to betray a City State.

Option Three: Kick Kurac out of Allanak.  Toss them out, confiscate the estate, kill anyone that remains.  

Get the intrigue zinging in the South.  Instead, it really seems to me that Allanak may as well be run by cowards and shadows.  The longer there is no response the more it seems that Allanak may as well be a non-entity.

As a political entity Allanak is currently the size of Azerbaijan.  Kurac wields the influence of Britain and Tuluk is the USA.  The Muark are Switzerland (neutral yet exceptionally powerful).  To me, the power ratio seems skewed.  

Please note, I think in game consequences to any major IC event should happen.  If an elven tribe were to slaughter a Merchant caravan - I want to see that merchant house flex it's muscle and actively hunt down the tribe. I do not believe any organization should appear to be inviolate.  And at this time, it really appears that Kurac cannot be touched and suffers no ill effect for anything it does.
            
I'd also like to say that Kurac is an awesome clan and has wonderful PCs and IMMs running it.  No bones about it, Kurac rocks and once consequences are attached to their actions, it'll just prove how awesome a clan it is.

[Forest Junkie]

Excellent post, marko.

[Kalden]

Wow, yeah, that was a very enlightening post.  

I'm reluctant to put down Kurac because the 'civil liberty' Merchant House amuses me so much. It makes me chuckle.

I want it to stay rich and powerful so I can make an elf - one who steals their spice, assassinates their leaders, and burns their buildings.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I have to agree with you, Marko. But I still vote for Allanak, because the day I hear about Allanak tossing Kurac out on their ear will be the day I tell myself, "Shit. Allanak is in for it now!"

That will be the day I defect from whatever clan I am playing in and go join Kurac. Boy, do I ever wanna march through the streets of Allanak as a victor over them!

[Xerokine]

While I agree with Marko's post above about the Kuraci, I firmly believe Allanak should take a severe beating. Not by the citizens of Tuluk, Red Storm, Kurac or anyone else.. Simply from a revolt of the people. I would dearly love to see open executions of Allanaki Templars ranging from the Blue Robes all the way to the highest. (Red Robes?) It would be an amazing event with the citizens of this cut-throat city-state displaying their power and flexing their muscles. Other than that, I would like to see the cities battle of Luirs Outpost and then go straight for those gypsies.

[Larrath]

Black robes.

Blue Robes (most of the templars, lowest level),
then Red Robes (significantly rarer, these are basically templar senior nobles),
and then Black Robes (who are the highest authority in Allanak).

There's also White Robes who seem to be dealing with gospel or whatever, but their rank doesn't list on the Allanaki social rankings document so there.

[/derailment]

I voted against the Tan Muark because I think they should have more serious enemies (or at least a city state, Gyppo-Prime!), but after reading Marko's post...down with Kurac!  Keel them!  Them and their freakin' [babble].

EDIT: As for a mob going against a Black Robe...I think I'd like to see that once.  :twisted:

[Mekeda]

I normally try not to respond to things like this but.. in this case there was so much misinformation given in  recent post that I feel compelled. There are always things that players never see, and this is case in point. This is one players perception of recent events that really bears very little reality to the events as experienced by most of the players of Kurac and other clans.

Yes, Kurac lost the outpost briefly but then they got a new (and very cool) camp that sprang up instantly (good for Kurac). Then, after it all went down, Kurac had the outpost back and was in better shape.

Tan Sarak took 4 ic years to build. There was major construction going on for that entire length of time. The merchants were moved there 2 to 3 per RL week to show the gradual shifting of people to the new location. It did not spring up overnight. If you have visited Tan'Sarak at ALL recently you might have noticed the same thing is happening in reverse. The merchants are slowly moving back to Luirs and Tan Sarak is becoming the wasteland it once was again.

Here's a Merchant House that really isn't fundamental to Allanak's economy (don't give me that Kurac supplies all of Allanak's "desert gear" that's a recent thing and it isn't necessary to buy only from Kurac) that betrays Allanak to openly ally itself with Tuluk, has a military force that is large enough to attack Allanaki forces, and has its spice supply south of Allanak. Yet, the response was a flabbergasting nothing.

Yet another case of one player not seeing the whole picture. Kurac was missing from Allanak for a long time and yet.. no one seems to remember it. I know that pc's were involved and had to bust ass to get Kurac back INTO Allanak. Just because you did not see anything does not mean it did not happen.

I'd also like to say that Kurac is an awesome clan and has wonderful PCs and IMMs running it. No bones about it, Kurac rocks and once consequences are attached to their actions, it'll just prove how awesome a clan it is.

Thank you for this, but please bear in mind that many of the best plots in Armageddon never become public knowledge. More  happens behind the scenes with the nobility and templarate than most commoners would be aware of. Also please bear in mind that things often may seem to spring up overnight because you haven't been to an area in 2 RL months and now... wham... a small tent city is there. You did not see all the slow steady painful work that went into the building, whereas people that are there, day in and day out, are seeing and experiencing all of the frustrations and hardships that rebuilding a completely destroyed outpost is entailing, that dismantling a tent city entails. If Kurac rocks, and I like to think it does, it's because the pc's ARE there day in and day out doing the things that seem, to someone who visits once in a while, rather miraculous.


Mekeda

[2 Lazy 2 Login ShaL]

I voted Kurac.

Ditto.

Why?

Because I feel that Kurac is an 'untouchable' at the moment. etc etc etc

Ditto again but I'm aware that I don't know details or machinations behind their power.
Some other things that baffle me is the undying, fanatical (unrealistic?) loyalty the whole entire house has.  They can't be betrayed, they seem to kill anyone that might even have a chance at doing so.
The Tan Muark can't be infiltrated, it's physically impossible to pretend to be a Muark. It's like Kurac finds every single person in the known world who is willing to work like a slave and almost immediately reward them with the kind loyalty that is only gained from years of trust building. They've managed to pin Allanak in by basically taking over Red Storm, they have Luir's, they have the tent city, they are closely allied with Allanak's mortal enemy and they are still selling tents and water gourds in the bazaar and krath knows what else since they are all sneaky bastards.

I know for a fact that Kurac works for that loyalty and they work hard at it. More clans should be like Kurac in "customer satisfaction" but in keeping with the harshness of the world... I'd love to see them utterly destroyed so that not one of those psycho people are left.   :mrgreen:

I voted for Kurac and it's one of my favorite clans.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Damn. Whatta buncha haters! But that's cool ... my next PC will be a Kuraci, then we'll see what fer, dammit...

[Incognito]

What this entire thread really means is....folks are itching for a change, and not just a small-ass change here and there, but one of Zalanthan proportions.

Another downfall of Luirs wont do.
Another downfall of Tuluk .....might do.
A downfall of Allanak might be cooler.

But,
I think we're all lookin for something bigger!

Something along the lines of:
The Dragon returning.
Muk and Tek goin one on one, for world domination.
Some other humanoid race (besides humans) gaining dominance.
Magick becoming openly accepted and practised? (perhaps hmmms).

i.e. basically something which will add a huge paragraph in the History of Zalanthas :)

Incog

[Pantoufle]

Again, not to turn this into a Hate Kurac thread, but since that clan has become somewhat of the focus here, I feel compelled to retort a little more.

In my perspective, the bottom line is this.  It doesn't matter how realistic the whole affair may be.  It doesn't matter if I (along with all other players of the game) do not know "The Big Picture", nor whether or not we are around to witness what goes down in some virtual backroom, hosted by virtual senior lords, templars and agents.  What matters is, who is so powerful it stagnates the game?

What's that you say?  Who?  

Kurac.  That's who.

The fact that Ten'Sarak took years to build and the shift back to Luir's took years (OOC months) to reclaim, doesn't really have any impact on me.  The bottom line is, they apparently have it all back and are none the worse for wear because of it.  They are still just as powerful as they were, and are still the seemingly invincible empire they have always been.  Even when Ten'Sarak absolves completely, this will still be the case.

I would like to see House Kurac have just as many weaknesses as their neighboring merchant monopolies, Kadius and Salarr.

[Quirk]

I voted Tuluk.

The way I look at it is: who most needs exciting RP? Who most needs intrigue? Allanak? No, they usually have four or five times as much going on as Tuluk, with thanks for that going in some measure to the lawless 'Rinthers. Kurac? No, they're always scheming and plotting and doing things. The Tan Muark? Perhaps, but they're a smaller playerbase than Tuluk and any kick to them would hardly stir anyone else. Tuluk however has settled into a bland and fairly happy place with slow currents of subdued intrigue and almost no overt conflicts. For some players it's likely considerably less harsh than the reality they live in. The odd cataclysmic event may stir things up, kill a few old characters, but it doesn't seem to make for a big change. Tuluk needs something to happen that will create lasting tension. It needs to be harsher. "Subtlety" has to become a word that describes how something is done rather than an excuse for not doing anything at all.

Quirk

[Armaddict]

Thank god someone agrees with me about Tuluk and subtlety.

[Anonymous]

What matters is, who is so powerful it stagnates the game?

What's that you say?  Who?  

Kurac.  That's who.

Can you explain exactly how they are 'so powerful it stagnates the game'?  The only thing I keep hearing is that they lost Luir's for a little bit and then got it right back.  Ok, but how does that make them 'so powerful it stagnates the game'?

The biggest reason I could come up with for them being 'so powerful that it stagnates the game' is that my time in Kurac saw a lot of very longlived PCs which, unfortunately, normally translates into an unrealistic amount of power in game.

But that's not a problem with Kurac, that's a problem with the game in and of itself.  A 30 year old female merchant played for a RL year is going to have more behind-the-scenes power than a 35 year old noble PC that just entered the game.  I don't know how to fix something like that, but I'm sure having a good number of longlived PCs is what causes the large part of the perception that Kurac is 'overpowered'.

[Anonymous]

"Subtlety" has to become a word that describes how something is done rather than an excuse for not doing anything at all.

Do you have the other half of this medallion?  Because you phrased exactly what I've been feeling for a while now.  Still, I'm willing to accept that a lot of stuff goes on behind the scenes.  But "subtelty' translating into taking so long to do something that it never gets done has long been a concern of mine.

[Pantoufle]

Can you explain exactly how they are 'so powerful it stagnates the game'? The only thing I keep hearing is that they lost Luir's for a little bit and then got it right back. Ok, but how does that make them 'so powerful it stagnates the game'?

I think anything that is too powerful innevitably leads to stagnation.  All room for growth is severed when you are all powerful and all seeing.  Imagine if Superman were immune to kryptonite.  The question is whether you think House Kurac, the Tan Muark, or anyone else is too powerful.  Me, personally?  Yeah, I think House Kurac tends to be a bit too powerful for a merchant house.  But that's just me.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I would like to see House Kurac have just as many weaknesses as their neighboring merchant monopolies, Kadius and Salarr.

Why? Both Salaar and Kadius are Houses that started in the cities. They are city dependant. Kurac began in the desert. They need no city. If they were kicked outta both cities and Red Storm, they would still survive. Why? Because Kurac is the desert House, and there is no other answer.

[Pantoufle]

Kurac originates in Tuluk actually.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Kurac originates in Tuluk actually.

The House itself might. The forefathers didn't.

[Anonymous]

Can you explain exactly how they are 'so powerful it stagnates the game'? The only thing I keep hearing is that they lost Luir's for a little bit and then got it right back. Ok, but how does that make them 'so powerful it stagnates the game'?

I think anything that is too powerful innevitably leads to stagnation.  All room for growth is severed when you are all powerful and all seeing.  Imagine if Superman were immune to kryptonite.  The question is whether you think House Kurac, the Tan Muark, or anyone else is too powerful.  Me, personally?  Yeah, I think House Kurac tends to be a bit too powerful for a merchant house.  But that's just me.

You made this all clear before.  What I'm asking for is beyond losing Luir's and getting it back in less than a year, how are they so powerful?

I haven't seen any examples of how Kurac is so powerful that they can stagnate the game.

Personally I hardly think that Kurac's getting Luir's back is an example of how overpowered they are because my understanding was that a lot happened during the last HRPT which made that possible and didn't involve Kurac, but I'm not on staff and wasn't directly involved in what happened so I could be wrong.

[Seeker]

I think House Kurac tends to be a bit too powerful for a merchant house.

They are still just as powerful as they were, and are still the seemingly invincible empire they have always been.

I think that the issue of "powerful" is confusing, here.  The Great Merchant House Kurac is every bit as vulnerable as any other Merchant House or other largely virtual entity on Zalanthas.  They do have rivals and enemies and both good and sour relationships.  They have their unique weakness and unique strengths also.  

Like quite a few clans, a large portion of the RP in Kurac revolves around being an oppressed entity struggling for survival in a challenging and hostile enviroment, and events in the last two decades have shown that they can get the crap whalloped out of them on a whim of fate, and that nothing is EVER secure.

Listing their holdings, or lack of holdings, really does nothing to demonstrate their potential impact upon world events or rank their significance in the world.  Kurac's -actual- power in Armageddon and upon Zalathas is pretty carefully balanced.  

It is ludicrous to infer that a desert-based Merchant House will ever conquer a major city-state, or that Kuracis own Red Storm. Tek and the Sand Lord are just too potent, as they should be.

What, I think, is happening is that their "perceived influence" is just much greater.  As a group of players, the clan of Kurac might be perceived as being unusually effective, but that does not translate to the Merchant House of Kurac dominating the world.  

The poll question is asking who needs a smack-down.  That is cool.  It seems, in the answers, the Muark are targeted because they have a secure homeland, and Kurac is targeted because it seems too effective.


Seeker

[Ix Machina]

I just want to point out that there were a couple 'facts' claimed about Salarr that are not entirely true in this thread.

While I don't really mind rumors and myths in the game about things, even if they are dredged from the depths of one's imagination, I'd appreciate that these opinions and/or assumptions weren't passed off as truth, but merely what they are in an OOC context.

Essentially, what this means is that if you do not have access to documents about the history of specific clans or might remember but aren't sure from when you might have had this information, don't post as fact.

Along that vein, many times history of a clan is part of OOCly-restricted clan  documents and should not be pasted or spread on the GDB (these documents are password protected for a reason).

So, in essence, I'd like to ask that people please use discretion when posting their assumptions and if they are tempted to post out histories which are kept neatly behind password-protected clan webpages for a reason.

Thanks!

P.S. This is a very entertaining discussion, in the meanwhile and puts forth a lot of opinions.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Thank god someone agrees with me about Tuluk and subtlety.

[Callisto]

Thank god someone agrees with me about Tuluk and subtlety.

[sancho]

Kurac is so powerful because Kurac has to deal with shit directly, and Kurac has the best ST in the game (Mekeda).  Constantly struggling produces a lot of activity for our little clan.  Those of you saying "Kurac took a little punch in the face." need to really wise up.  Has Allanak or Tuluk ever been made unavailable to the playerbase for 7 RL months? Those are REAL months, not IC months.  Don't even start about TenSarak.  It took time to set up, had nowhere near the convenience of Luir's, and all the rooms were coded as harsh terrain so there were still movement costs.

If you think Kurac always comes out ahead and is all sunshine and hugs, you've never gotten promoted high enough.  Kurac takes more shit than any other clan in the game, no contest.  For the same reason you're all right when you say Kurac is the clan you don't want to screw with.  Kurac is good at the revenge business because the other clans give us so many reasons for revenge.

As for running Red Storm, where do you people come up with this shit?  Kurac has a gaming room and a warehouse store in Red Storm.  Woo.  Man, they have the Sand Lord on the run.  If you check the docs, you'll find out Kurac is only #2 in Red Storm's economy.  Kadius helped build Freil's Rest; does that mean they pretty much run Tuluk?

When it comes down to an asskicking, you have to ask who needs the activity an asskicking would stir up.  Kurac?  Kurac's perpetual asskicking has made it so active they're bigger than any other clan by leaps and bounds. No, if anyone needs an asskicking, it's Tuluk.  Sure, the Gypsies are overdue for a real enemy that actually hurts one of them, but how much activity would it create?  Tuluk, on the other hand, is so slow-paced that characters are coded to age at half-speed.  Okay, I made that up, but when was the last time something not hunting-related put people at risk in Tuluk?

My vote: Tuluk.  Keep kicking Kurac's ass and it'll consume half the playerbase.

[Anonymous]

Powerful huh...Kurac is influencial but not really all powerful, they probably have most of the templars in Allanak bribed.  By owning luirs they leave themselves open to attack and the potential to be conquered (even by a brand new PC clan :twisted: ), unlike other houses which have their main base protected by the powerful temperate.  On top of that, the costs to rebuilding luirs after the last mantis occupation must quite a burden for any house.

                      Tuluk is powerful but considering the amount of damage and death the poeple of tuluk have had to endure over the decades i think they have experienced enough of what it means to be defeated.  Also it seems like their god-king Utep is either dead or incapacitated, he isn't all that powerful if Allanak was able to occupy the city for all those years (Purely OOC speculation, I have no IG proof).  

                      When is the last time Allanak boarder were conquer or it's people died by the tens of thousands like tuluk.  The last major city to challenge Allanak was buried under a ton of sand by tek.  Their god-king is by far the most power and on top of that they keep elemental as part of their impresive arsenal.  Therefore i vote Allanak... I think 'nak needs a visit from the dragon and tek "coincidently" not show himself in public again .

              By the way I hate having all powerful god-kings, though i know they are a staff tool used to keep IC order.  I wish tek and Mek (And all powerful entities like them) would die and the noble houses fight for control over the templars and the cities or one of the other ideas above come to be.  Btw the gypsies getting conquered would have been my second choice.

[Armaddict]

Without Tek and Muk, the templars are useless besides commanding soldiers.  Which isn't exactly weak, but still.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

If you are referring to my post, Ix, my apologies.

[Mr.Camel]

I don't like the idea of kicking Allanak, Kurac or whomever because they never had their asses kicked. Zalanthas is not fair, something I got to love about it. Survival for the fittest. That said, down with one sorcerer king and weaken the other. Give those noble houses an empire to tear down between them in a struggle for supremecy.

[tomtom]

I love tuluk, but id like to see a war or something cool

[Tamarin]

Oooooh it's gotta be the Gypsies.  Someone has GOT to open up a can of whoopass on their jabronie asses.

[Tamarin]

Oh and as a sidenote, don't you hate those people who ask questions, and then answer them themselves?  I sure as hell do.

:twisted:  :twisted:

[sacac]

yea.. I picked other.. because.. Sacac's pc needs a good ass kicking?

Besides that.. I believe.. Tuluk needs a good southern ass kicking.
because WHy the F'ing shit do templar's laugh at  a joke told by a southerner?

[mansa]

I think mindbenders need a good kick in the face.  Take that!  I think that if there's a mindbender in your clan, even if it's your lover, you should take them out and kill them.  Who cares if they are a 'special app'.  They are -supposed- to be hunted and killed outright.

[Armaddict]

Don't listen to Mansa!  Kill -his- characters!  Yes.  THey're all...supposed to be hunted...because...Mansa runs them!  Yes!  Dangerous and witty, they are, shifty as the sands!  Kill them all.  Not the mindbenders.  Mansa's.

*sneaks away*

P.S.  No, I'm not playing a mindbender.  This is just a stoned guy fucking around.

[mansa]

Don't make me come to utah.

[Armaddict]

I wouldn't put anyone through -that- kind of torture.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Not enough players would be involved in kicking gypsy ass?  Then I propose that EVERYBODY kick gypsy ass.  Every faction, every House, every lone wolf, all putting aside their differences, banding together to give those horny, annoying-accented fuckers an ass-kicking the likes of which Zalanthas has never seen before.  Once every last gypsy has become a smoking pile of gypsy puree, we can then begin squabbling over who gets to rape and defile the gypsy homeland for every fucking obsidian coin it's worth.  When nothing is left but a tract of scorched earth where gypsy land once was, and we're all back to hating each other just as much as we did when we started out, we'll know that our work is done.

[Anonymous]

Not enough players would be involved in kicking gypsy ass?  Then I propose that EVERYBODY kick gypsy ass.  Every faction, every House, every lone wolf, all putting aside their differences, banding together to give those horny, annoying-accented fuckers an ass-kicking the likes of which Zalanthas has never seen before.  Once every last gypsy has become a smoking pile of gypsy puree, we can then begin squabbling over who gets to rape and defile the gypsy homeland for every fucking obsidian coin it's worth.  When nothing is left but a tract of scorched earth where gypsy land once was, and we're all back to hating each other just as much as we did when we started out, we'll know that our work is done.

Be my special internet friend.

[Delirium]

To late, I added him to my growing harem of mulish lust slaves.