Basic question

[marko]

I've been reading a lot recently about PCs being "rich."

Now, I am curious.  What is the definition of rich that is being bantered around?

[Agent_137]

IRL, it's never having to worry about money, even if you sat on your ass for the rest of your life. That's -my- definition of rich, anyway.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Rich is stepping outside the boundaries of what a typical representation of your occupation could be expected to make.  I consider it a bad thing since it entails abusing the game to make more money than you ought to be able to.

[Bestatte]

One of my characters was a Nenyuk agent. To her, rich meant keeping 20,000 sids in the bank at any given moment.

One of my characters was a low-class (not rinthi) commoner secret whiran. To her, rich was anything more than needed to keep herself from starving or dying of thirst. When she got hired as a noble's concubine, she was - disgusted by the waste she saw in the estate, but in awe of it at the same time.

One of my characters started as an independent ranger, ended up a templar's aide. To her, rich was what she was currently earning. She was impressed -somewhat- with her own wealth, but she usually just shrugged it off and continued feeding the poor. She earned around 400 sids a month, and her apartment was paid for.

Another character had a background of coming from an affluent non-"official" merchant house that specialized in its floristry arts, in particular, hybrid roses. To her, rich was what Nobles were, and poor was what the "other" commoners were. Her salary as a guard in a noble house was all gravy. She didn't need one at all. Unfortunately her virtual uncles couldn't buy her pretty things that she could code-wise wear, so she took the sids and used it to buy pretty things.

It's all subjective. Another character had no need for coins at all, so any mount of coins would be irrelevent to her wealth - because she wouldn't value them even if she had 5000 of them in the bank.

[Forest Junkie]

I view rich as having collateral, not coin.

[mansa]

Rich is brushing off a member of a merchant house.   Not listening to an aide for a member of a merchant house.  Taking things into your own hands.  Now that's power.

[Delirium]

Like Marko, I'm curious as well.

I've had one non-commoner that had.. 50,000 or so? I don't think that was rich by her standards - perhaps even slightly poor - but I don't know if I could have possibly spent it all, either.

The most I've ever had in the bank with a commoner (rarely hunted and didn't craft at all) was approximately 5,000 'sid. I could've probably had a lot more, but she was the type to waste it as quickly as she got it. Still, she had more than enough to support her spice smoking, gambling, tattoo-getting, drinking, and posh apartment rentals, so she seemed plenty rich to me.

I've had people scoff at 10,000 'sids, though.. so perhaps that wasn't rich at all, but "poor". Which strikes me as pretty odd.

[Agent_137]

Do you base your measurement of rich on net income, or gross?

[Lazloth]

You're all answering too pc.  The way I read "rich" in marko's context has nothing to do with power or prestige (I could be wrong, shrug, but being literal).  While a noble, eg., probably has virtual access to virtual noble funds, by and large I assume his/her bank is generally depleted to accomodate the hires, bribes, frivolity, etc., that consume him/her day-to-day.  For these and other reasons, I'll exclude members of a stipend income.

In either regard, for me, being "rich" has little to do with income (ala Agent_137), instead representing net value: holdings, liquid & physical.  Ignoring real estate, slaves if applicable, extended property, etc., 50k in bank would approach; 75k would be "rich" in my book.  (This is, of course, compounded by the fact that for a money-maker, bank assets are never static.)

[Marc]

100k+ would be rich.

Less than that is just well off.

[X-D]

100k+ would be rich.

Less than that is just well off.

Same, and I think about it the same as Lazloth.

[Ghost]

I agree with mansa.  My current character holds things in his own hands, or at least he thinks so, and to him money does not count at all.

[Marshmellow]

What is sound, 'wealth?'

[marko]

Thanks for the replies.  From what is being said, it seems to me that very very very few characters ever get rich (assuming the 100k mark).  In fact, I can state right out that I've only ever known one character in the ten years of being around Armageddon who ever had that much coin and that was about nine years ago.  As such, it would seem to indicate that the discussion where people are talking about characters getting rich are exercises for writing since almost no one gets that rich (making 100k).

Yet, somehow, I don't think that is the mark most people are talking about.  This is what people have been saying.  I'd like some eleberation of the terms if one would be so kind.  Establishing a base level agreement as to what is being "too rich" would allow these dicussions to proceed in a meaningful manner.  At the moment, I suspect people are using the term of rich and having wealth to mean different things to different people.  

I'd do the proper quote thing but it'd be a pain.  

Please notice I've only gone through a couple of the recent threads where this comes up.  There are many more examples of people using the term but I figured this is a fairly good cross section.

---


Teleri wrote on Mon, July 19, 2004

I also believe that it is time for a change to occur in the amount of payment and what can be made available to the commoner PCs. It's getting just ridiculous, seeing some people in super-fine armor or silks, or those with very valuable weapons/jewelry rivalling a noble's stock. Unclanned commoners simply should not be able to have access to these things, or at least not so very many of them.


After all, if one is a noble of any sort, then he or she is better than even the most wealthy or powerful of commoners.


Bestatte wrote on Mon, July 19, 2004

Don't begrudge the independents for being successful. Guards aren't SUPPOSED to be rich. They're supposed to be guards. If they were rich, they wouldn't need their noble house anymore would they?


Krath wrote on Mon, July 19, 2004

It is just out of
control how much money Guards, advisors and such are paid, and dually ridicilious how
much money independent crafters can sell certain items for. I, and I believe Teleri
as well see this as the central problem. Regardless, this is not a discussion about
Guards pay vs Independent Merchant Pay, it is about Commoners being able to afford
things they should not be able to, and as well, being able out dress nobles, templars
and the such.


Dracul wrote on Mon, July 19, 2004

I agree...rich commoners are really bad.

X-D wrote on Mon, July 19, 2004

AND, -try- to remember that PC's are a tiny tiny percentage of the world. and even from them, only a small percent are rich enough to be decked out in silks and whatnot.

Larrath wrote on Mon, July 19, 2004

Problem #1: Making too much money: I do think it could be nice if it was gradually but CONSISTENTLY (throughout all clans) reduced to something more humble.

Seeker wrote on Mon, July 19, 2004

Rich commoners are the perfect solution to last year's fashions...

Bestatte wrote On Mon, July 19, 2004

Oh and as far as how easy it is to be a rich independent...

Armaddict wrote on Mon, July 19, 2004

I seriously doubt any commoners would be thinking, "I'm going to stick to myself, so that I can make more money faster and buy things that will make me look like a noble and overwhelmingly rich so that people post on the GDB about how rich commoners are getting, even though I'm the exception rather than the rule."

Armaddict wrote on Mon, July 19, 2004

The last time I saw a filthy rich independent was awhile ago.

sjanimal wrote on Mon, July 19, 2004

allot of the people that are criticizing the rich commoners don't appreciate how short-lived many of the rich commoners are.

Marc wrote On Tue, July 20, 2004

As it stands a commoner can get an insane amount of obsidian relatively easy.

Angela Christine wrote on Tue, July 20, 2004

Most of my independent that have gotten "rich" with unseamly haste got there by finding corpses.

Dan wrote on Tue, July 20, 2004

These rich commoners will still have to bank their coin, but it will cost you to keep it all safe.

X-D wrote on Tue, July 20, 2004

out of the maybe 7 indy chars I know, maybe 2 could be considered rich, I know of another 5 that are FAR from that

"CrafterWoman" wrote on Tue 20, July, 2004

It will make independent crafters less financially wealthy

Dresan wrote on Wed, July 21, 2004

Tailors can actually make quite alot of money, right now

spawnloser wrote on Wed, July 21, 2004

the problem is the price of things being sold too high...and in general, people bringing in too much money.

[Agent_137]

maybe by rich they mean, "A good amount more than i usually make, me not being a twink."

[Marc]

And if you've only known one character in 10 years with 100k+ then you don't run with the 'rich' crowd.  It is not difficult to reach that mark, just a little tedious and there are PLENTY of armageddon players with patience.

[Dresan]

People would eventually get to the 100k mark esspecially with haggle skill, no twinking needed either.    To me, Zalanthas rich would mean having enough sid to be able to sit on your ass all day, eat steak & drink wine, wearing the best clothing kadius has to offer (in their shops) for the rest of your life.   Actually have enough sid to be able to sit on your ass all day, eat travel cakes & drink water, and having half decent gear on would be rich in Zalanthas, considering it is common for people to starve to death.

[Incognito]

Rich means sending your sorry-ass-page boy to Salarr and ordering a full set of custom-designed metal platemail armor with gold embellishments and studded with jewels.

Other than that, I would consider it being middle-class at best.

Incognito ;)

[Anonymous]

Rich is not having to worry about what you are going to eat or how you are going to drink for the next year.

Seriously.  In our economic terms we consider the top 15-25% to be rich.  I'd say well under that number enjoys not having to worry for their survival in Zalanthas.

[Bestatte]

Rich is not having to worry about what you are going to eat or how you are going to drink for the next year.

Seriously.  In our economic terms we consider the top 15-25% to be rich.  I'd say well under that number enjoys not having to worry for their survival in Zalanthas.

Rich, to a poor person, would mean what you suggest CRW. Rich, to a person of means, would mean something entirely different.

Though I hate real world comparisons -

Rich, to someone living on welfare, would be to get off welfare and have enough money to buy their own stuff without having to rely on government handouts.

Rich, to someone who works 40 hours a week to pay the bills, would be to work only 20 hours a week to pay the bills, and maybe another 20 hours a week to pay for a 2-week vacation in a luxury spot.

Rich, to the president of a small manufacturing company, would be to sell the whole kit and kaboodle and live out his retirement as a gentleman farmer.

Rich, to Bill Gates...heh - never mind that.

[Anonymous]

Relative to the majority, my interpretation of the gaming world is that if you don't have to worry about eating, you are rich.  There are divisions within that subgroup just like with our own upper class, sure, but I still think when you are defining what rich is it has to be relative to the majority.

[Bestatte]

Well, one very enormous group of people in the two cities are slaves. They get all the food, water, and shelter they need, and are usually treated better than the average rinthi scum.

To a slave, I don't think they'd think being "rich" meant having enough food and water. They already have plenty. And some of them even wear silk! Maybe to them, being rich would mean a diamond-imbedded collar to show off to their plain or topaz-gemmed collared slave-pals.

"Rich" in otherwords, is highly subjective. It is also seperated by city vs. non-city people. Non-city people wouldn't value obsidian coins nearly to the extent city people would. And I'm guessing that at least virtually, there are as many non-city people in the known world as there are city people.

The majority of city-dwelling commoners are -not- starving. They aren't wearing silks, but there is only one small quarter in each city for the truly desperate citizens. The vast majority of each city is made up of citizens of modest - but not desperate - means. That means they DO have food and water, if not much else. They would rent their homes rather than own them. They'd use the public stables instead of owning their own stables - but they'd still have the sids to own the mount and pay the stable fees.

They have enough sids to pay for an ale or a glass of wine at the tavern - which explains why the room descriptions clearly state that they are crowded with locals and visitors alike.

If you live in the rinth, "rich" would mean owning a bar of soap to clean the stench off your clothes.  If you live in the commoner's quarter, rich would be having enough sids to buy a bowl of stew instead of having to kill your own scrab. If you live in the merchant's quarter, rich would mean having enough coinage to change your wardrobe monthly, and maybe even afford to bathe on a semi-regular basis, in a real bathtub. If you live in the noble's quarter, rich would mean bathing in a bronze tub or having an enormous fountain that exists purely for decoration.

It is all subjective, and the "majority" isn't nearly as clearly defined as you would think.

[marko]

If it is as subjective as you are saying Bestatte, could you eleborate on what you meant by this:

Bestatte wrote on Mon, July 19, 2004

Don't begrudge the independents for being successful. Guards aren't SUPPOSED to be rich. They're supposed to be guards. If they were rich, they wouldn't need their noble house anymore would they?

---

This implies that you have a definition of rich for how a guard is supposed to be.  Yet, by not stating what that is - one can only guess that you mean a guard should not have 100k?

It seems to me by the number of people using the term "rich" that there is a value at which a PC is considered "rich."  I am looking for what that level is so I can understand what people are trying to get across when they use the term.  

Thus far, it seems to me that it is resting at 100k of available coin.

[Bestatte]

I mean rich, as compared to the average non "agent" merchant type PC, since that was what the discussion was about.

[Krath]

I think he wants a number value

[Bestatte]

Fine. For a starving rinth rat, anything over 50 sids is rich.

For a slave, "rich" isn't measured in sids at all, because they wouldn't be allowed to spend it anyway.

For a common commoner who isn't starving but doesn't own their own home, being able to *maintain* in excess of 5000 sids in the bank would be rich.

For a commoner who is fortunate enough to have moved out of the commoner's quarter and into the merchant's district, but still isn't a member of any fancy "official" house, *maintaining* in excess of 10,000 sids would be considered rich.

For an "official" household commoner, maybe 20,000 and up, depending on their "rank" in their house.

For a noble - maybe 50,000 in personal coins (since most of their "official duty" expenses are paid for by the house) would be rich.

Note that I specified "maintaining" this amount of coin. Getting a windfall one day and blowing the whole thing in a month doesn't mean you're rich. It means you got lucky that month. A salary of that much doesn't mean you can maintain it in the bank, because you are spending part of your salary on personal expenses. It's being able to go to the bank at any given moment on any given day and have the clerk tell you that your balance is "that much" - that's what would make you financially wealthy.

I still don't think "rich" can be measured in sids exclusively, because not all characters in the world value sids and in fact MANY do not.

[Anonymous]

Though i agree with Bestatte, that things are subjective to perception, i think we can still define a IC stardard of 'rich'.


                      In Zalanthas life is harsh, everyone (with the exception of nobles) has to struggle in one way or another to survive.  This means everyone has to work, whether you are sergent of the guards, thief or whore everyone must do something in order to eat &drink.  If DON'T  have to do anything inorder to eat or drink (for the rest of your life) then you must be 'rich'.  The level of rich is debatable but rich none the less.

                 Now for numbers:

              First off i need to mention that I believe the cost of food and water we currently pay in the game represents what a Zalanthian is paying from the time we log off to the time we log on.  Through this way of thinking we could come up with an idea of what the minimum amount of Sid, it would take to survive a lifetime.  The three things need to live are food, water and shelter.

                    For two to three hours of playing (I know some people play more some less but a rough average taken from a poll) some one is looking at:

* 30 Sid for food (A little high, I know, but you can't eat travel cakes forever   )
*22 sid for water

When you add this up your looking at 52 Sid every time you play for 2-3 hours which is once a day for most.

    Now the life expectancy of the average Zalanthian is around 35-45 years, IMO.  Since you somehow survive til 15, we will calculate for 32 years (So we get more whole numbers), which is 4 RL years or 1460 day .  

                  So far we are looking at 75920 sid                

Selter
100 sid per Ic year*30 years of life

3000 sid
_____________________________________________________

So around 78920, however clothing, misc. things, robberies and other factors would probably push this upwards to the 100k mark.

Here is the thing though  this sum would probably need to be multiplied by the number of dependents of that person.   This is just a rough estimate i know there are many factors missing so don't begin flaming.
__________________________________________________

So for those look for a number there ya go.  If you have 100k in the bank your PC can sit on his ass for the rest of his life.  It should be mentioned that this is only for FREE city people and not those who know nothing of Sid or unable to do anything with it.

[Dresan]

I hate when the GDb logs me out...above post is mine...i'm going to start posting my name at the bottom like everyone else

-Dresan

[Angela Christine]

Relative to the majority, my interpretation of the gaming world is that if you don't have to worry about eating, you are rich.

I don't think so.  That is comfortable, but not rich.  Unless by not have to worry you mean that you have so many assets that you will NEVER have to worry about it ever again.  Not having to worry for a year gives you some breathing space, but it doesn't make you rich.

To me rich means you own property, you own something of real value.  You own a house, a shop or a wagon *plus* you don't have to worry about food and water.  100k is a nice round figure, at that level of wealth you have the opportunity to try to buy real estate even if you haven't yet.


A silk outfit and 2k in the bank doesn't make you rich.  If you act rich at that level, you are just a poser.  


Angela Christine

[Mr.Camel]

If players don't agree on their interpretation of 'rich', then I would think characters would have more diverse thoughts.

[JollyGreenGiant]

If players don't agree on their interpretation of 'rich', then I would think characters would have more diverse thoughts.

And I think that was likely marko's point exactly.

My interpretation?  Rich is having so much money that you can't possibly spend it.  Rich is Bill Gates, who, assuming he never earned another penny, could spend the sum of the GNP of a few small countries every year for hundreds of years and still not spend it all.  That's how I see the comparative wealth of Zalanthan nobles and merchants.  To me, a million dollars a year sounds like a lot of money, but as far as the founder of Ikea is concerned, I couldn't make his kind of money at that rate in a thousand years.

100k in the bank?  To a commoner, that sounds pretty rich, sure.  You're probably set for life if you use it carefully, just like if I had a couple million in the bank.  But a noble can blow that just constructing a few rooms of a mansion, and Bill Gates' house cost more than I'll ever have in this lifetime.