Clan vs. Independent

[sjanimal]

To seperate the threads of a whole other issue, I'm bringing up the clan thing here.

After a recent pole, it would appear that 75% of voters are in fact in clans.

So, if you're in a clan and you want to hate on all of the independents, do it here.  Vent.  Tell us how we're screwing up your game experience, and what we should do better.

And if you're independent and you're sick of all the clan people, post that here as well.  Let's try to work this out without whining to the IMMs about it.

I'll go first.

[sjanimal]

Okay, right now my character is in a clan.  I make half of my characters have significant life in clans.  I don't like clans, but I do this to support the clans because I like to help out.  I'm that kind of guy.

While we're on the subject, I get bored to tears with clans.  The clan leaders seem to have put little thought into playability when designing a clan.  Yes, realism and efficiency are important, but playability is equally important.

I don't have any fun in clans.  When I'm playing this game, I'm not at work.  I don't want to spend all of my free time doing a boring job.  I don't mind guard work, foraging OR crafting (the three most common hires) but all this needs to be mixed in with a certain amount of fun.

Also, a couple clan leaders need to work on their RPing...there are a couple of you who play such scurvy bastards that my character gets really frustrated, but I'm rolling on the ground laughing because you're such a funny scurvy bastard.

A couple of you are scurvy bastards without being funny.

So, after this character dies, I think I'm going to take a break from playing clanned characters until the clan people stop whinning about it.  When you stop whinning, I'll cheerfully come back.  

But please make the clans FUN.  Once the clans become more fun than going out on your own, then I"ll stop going out on my own.

[sjanimal]

Oh yeah, since I'm not done ranting,

I think a lot of people play in clans that we're not aware of.

For example one clan (name censored) has tons of people, but they spend all their time outside of the city as part of their employment.  A coupe elf clans do this as well.

Another clan, a military clan has TONS of people, but they are required to train all the time so we just don't see them much.

So if you go into a tavern, yeah, half of the people in there are independent.  But they're not representative of the game population.  They're simply more visible.

And yeah, sometimes you see the indepdent guy flashing his silk clothes and showing the big score that he just got, but you don't realize that for every guy like that you've got three who are dead and two more who came home with no big score.  

Another thing, when I travel to a foreign city to pick up a couple of pounds of silk for my employer, I can't just go running around saying what clan I'm in.  So I have to say that I'm indepedent, even though I'm not.   I could be killed in the wrong city.  I think characters with secret allegience account for lots of characters that we don't even know about.

Oh yeah, and how about characters that tried clans but just got fired, LOL.  I've seen a few of those.

And Yes, I'm ranting a lot, but I LOVE this game.  Otherwise I wouldn't play it four hours a day.

[WhiteRanger]

You make many good points. And as for the characters who secretly work for clans. This is very common. Many of the noble and merchant houses will not hire you if you are not human blood. NOT OPENLY anyways, so a large number of the elves and halfelves you see, are actually working for these houses doing more "sensitive" work. I play pretty much only ranger characters "hence the name" and I have yet to make a character that is not a loner. I die ALOT but if I stayed cooped up in a clan all the time, you wouldnt get to see a half naked bloody half-breed running across the desert from a distance wielding a tregil bone dagger while being chased by a mekillot...and you know you like that. :twisted:

[Anonymous]

People should be free to play how they want.  Clanned or indy.  It's just too easy to be independent and comfy right now resulting in less folks being in clans.  Clan jobs should be the objects of competition not employer begging.   Making life harder on independents (but not impossible) would help in that regard.  That's all I'm saying.

[Lazloth]

The only tenet I've seen to clan life that I dislike is the notion of lifelong commitment.  That seems to be the running methodology with any/all of my PCs who have found homes in organizations.

I would much prefer leaders who make it a point to push a contract.  Your experiences may, of course, differ.

[My 2 sids]

One idea I've had about clan vs independents is the idea of diversity.  When I read the documents about all the different houses and clans out there, I get real excited because I see struggles between different types of powers.  And yet, when I look in game, (granted this is just MOHO) I see a handful of houses/clans all operating the same way.  At the same time having an independent character allows players to have more diversity in their character's traits, lifestyles, and plotlines.  

It seems to me all the houses (merchant or noble) all have the same PC make up.  They all employ the "best" guards and they all have the most expensive tastes and they all have sneaky and shady spies, cunning and devious nobles or family members, perfectly groomed aides that always know just what to do, and magickers (south).  What I'd like to see is a bit more diversity among the houses, something that I, as a player and as a PC, can enjoy watching.  I suppose the easiest way to do this is to go back to basics of the house and hire PCs that reflect each house's unique characteristics.  Maybe Winrothol and Tor should hire a bunch of guards because they are –known- for their militaristic life-style.  Maybe Oash should hire the most PC spies and magickers.  Maybe Borsail hires more aides and those who are better equipped for the finer things in life.   I think this would at least make things more interesting with some distinction between houses. Once we have distinction, then real competition can start to happen.

The other area I think clans need to diversify is plotlines.  I would guess that the majority of plotlines (esp those driven by PCs) happen by way of the following:  House X little nothing of a guard or aide gets looked at funny by some drunk in a tavern.  The aide or guard to crying and tattling to House X's noble (or someone who has a direct connection and ear of said noble) and then House X's noble takes personal offence to a house guard or aide (that they probably don't even know because the house employs hundreds) and vows to retaliate.  Suddenly the plot doors close to the majority of people in game and in clans while the Nobles plot or talk with one or two PCs, if any, to have this "problem" taken care of).  In the mean time it turns out that this drunk actually belongs to House B so now House B has taken personal offence and the whole thing starts over again.  Now, I understand that some things go on behind closed doors and that houses have to look out for their employees and whatnot, but this is getting extreme.  The point is I think the player who enjoys playing the average Joe (someone who isen't perfectly groomed, always cunning and in control, doesn't always say the right thing or get along perfectly with everyone, or who won't have access to behind closed doors meetings) is just getting bored with what is offered by clans.  These players see independent characters as a way to breath fresh air and new ideas into a stagnant game.  What I think clans need to do (esp. for lower-ranking employees) is open up a bit to let PCs start and finish their own plotlines.  People like a little conflict, it can be seen by how many players love the new brawl code, and it should be realistic that some lower-ranking clan members (or personal issues for hirer-ranking workers) are allowed to have a bit of conflict without everything turning into a heroic epic!  Players and Imms need to monitor and continue to ensure that conflict between and in houses stay on a realistic scale.

I believe that a little more diversity and openness of realistic scale (not all three hundred employees will always get along or be perfect yet they do not to be killed off or mutilated or even punished by nobles) will make playing in a clan much more enjoyable by the majority of players.  The more enjoyable, the more the players will want to participate.

[Gaare]

(i)  I believe it should be a more harsh world for independents.  We have merchant houses and independents. I had characters in merchant houses  while we were making decisions OOCly we were thinking about independent crafters, hunters and such. I think life must be much harder for people whom doing work for themselves. There are monopolies and I saw many independent PCs have thousands in bank.

(ii) Clans and their leaders have a responsibility of making the World more enjoyable (in OOCly). I believe in most of the clans they are doing their business, but some...

[My 2 sids]

There are monopolies and I saw many independent PCs have thousands in bank.

I don't really see a huge issue here, monopolies are done by %s, not $ amounts.  Merchants should be some of the richest people in game, independents are no different.   The problem is, money should only get PCs so far in game.  The economy shouldn't resove around money, that would keep status and power of rich independents in check.

[Anonymous]

I'm going to rant for a minute.  Fair warning.

It's impossible to describe how frustrating and discouraging it is to see five or six threads on the GDB simultaneously, all bashing clans, clan leadership, and what have you.  I play a clan leader.  I pour a significant amount of time into thinking of fun ways to get my clan involved, communicating with my clan immortals, and generating interesting and involving plots beyond "stab this guy because he was insulting."  I go by the philosophy that I'm going to have fun if the people in my clan are having fun.  And you know what?  It works... as long as people are willing to get involved.  

When I spend a couple of weeks working out the details of an event with other clans and various immortals, ask OOC when the best time to run the event is, slot the event a week in advance, give people plenty of advance warning, and then you don't show up, you lose all right to complain about how nothing happens in the clan and everything is boring.  Ok?  Ok.

When I spend hours and hours developing the threads of a plot and assign you a task to accomplish in order to move things along, and you just sit in the tavern instead, the plot will die.  Again, you lose any right to complain about the lack of anything happening in the clan.  Plots are kind of hit-or-miss; if you miss, well, that's how things go.  But if you never even try, you don't get to complain about how I don't put any effort into the clan.  That fair?  Good.

Am I taking this personally?  You bet I am.  You're making sweeping generalizations about clans and clan leaders, and you know what?  That's me.  So it's personal.  You're not just talking about some nebulous group of people out there, you're talking about me.  Got some constructive things to say, or even some criticism?  Cool.  If you're in my clan, you know the name I use on the GDB.  PM me, message me, offer suggestions.  I'll bless you for taking the time to care, and I'll go out of my way to try to include you.  But don't freaking work me over in a massive clan bashing fest.

[EvilRoeSlade]

After a recent pole, it would appear that 75% of voters are in fact in clans.

Let's not forget that so far, only 60 people have voted on that poll.  I'd estimate there are probably around 300-500 players.

[jhunter]

So basically you lit the fire and expected it to go with no further help from you to keep it going?
It didn't go and now your offended because others didn't see anything happening?

Was it something -you- thought would be fun whether or not it was fun or interesting to everyone else?

It's -their- fault that the pc they're playing didn't go along with whatever, (possibly appearing meaningless task to them) and it was crucial to your plot?

Perhaps you assigned the task to the wrong pc?

Was it stressed that it was very important?

I just see alot of unanswered questions in what your saying, it seems to me that you're not taking responsiblity for the plot dying...laying the blame on others...and now getting offended because many people are being honest and stating how boring they find the coded clans to be

[Armaddict]

Heh.  Yes.  It's all clan leader's faults.  All of it.  That's what we were saying.

Way to get offended.  *thumbs up*

They were saying, in some instances, the leadership is not as good as it should be.  They even took the time to say many of the clans are doing fine.  He said in -some- clans.  Just the fact that you took that to mean you means you're very likely insecure in your leadership role.  If you're a good leader, you know it, and ignore statements like those.

I have, myself, been in a clan in the past year where the leadership ruined the whole experience, and the clan is -still- fairly unenjoyable because of it, from what I hear.

[Agent_137]

I love a lot of fun in my clan. We have two kick ass immortals, three great leaders, and one that's kinda not ever around. But that's ok, cause we got lots of good ones. My char's been in it for awhile, saw it through the spare times when there was only one unit of us, now we're bubbling over with recruits. These past few weeks have been slow, but that's ok, it'll get busy again soon.

And when I hit leader, assuming my char doesn't die, or get blackballed, rest assured I got some new ideas up my sleeve. Nothing ground shaking, but it isn't the same old thing.

Best of luck, bitches!

[Bestatte(notloggedin)]

Heh. I'm in a coded clan, with one IMM and no PC leaders. Also no schedules, no recruiting, no hiring. Some kick-ass rules and regs, no "training" regimen, no sparring, no private cook, no pre-arranged plotlines. Am I bored? Once in awhile. I have my days. Do I have fun? You betcha. Do I need a clan leader to make it fun for me? Nope. Do I need an IMM to make it fun for me? Nope.

Now let's talk about being clanned in a HOUSE.

I was in one before I had this character. Same one as Armaddict in fact. And with the exception of a couple of days here and there, and a week where a very specific plotline stuck my PC in a very specific boring situation, I totally loved being in the clan. I thought the clan's PC leader was great, I had regular interaction with him, and was even able to run a little mini sub-plot that had nothing to do with anything, but involved my clan PC leader.

The thing is, I designed my character to be strictly on the up and up, someone who would be utterly devoted to the clan, someone who would never intentionally break any rules, and someone who LIKED being a guard and only enjoyed hunting as a break from the usual, the exception to the rule. I played her as someone who LIKED the routine, the mundane, the schedule. And because I set her up to be like this - I found myself enjoying it immensely.

On off days - or at night, I would occasionally find frustration when no one was around in the places people hung out with. That's where it got frustrating. Because during those times I was dying for interaction and wasn't seeing any. But it would be stupid to blame my clan for that. My clan had nothing to do with it. It was just bad timing. No biggie, the next day usually picked up.

I think it makes a huge difference how you go into a role. If you go into it expecting fun, expecting interesting things to do, expecting this and that, then you're probably going to be disappointed unless you are the one who is creating the fun, interesting things to do, and this and that.

If you go into it with your eyes open, expecting nothing in particular, and not planning on "changing things" to suite your idea of enjoyment, you'll probably have fun.

[sjanimal]

Some randon noble whined on another thread about being upstaged by some commoner.  I would be tempted to jump down this person's throat, but let's face it:  they probably have a legitamate gripe.

Completely off the subject, a discusssion was initiated (by myself, I admit it) that independents have too much power.

A wide variety of solutions were proposed, that mostly included twinks to the economy.  I somehow doubt that these wil prove effective, but I have what I think will be a more effective solution.

INCREASING NOBLE POWER

My idea is this:  Each noble should get five dagger points a month.  These dagger points can be used to hire a group of NPC thugs to drag someone into an alley...and basically beat the tar out of them.

This won't benefit me at all.  I am unlikely to ever play a noble, because it doesn't really interest me.  But as things stand...I'm not really afraid of nobles.  I bow to them, and call them Lord and Lady...but deep down inside, I don't really fear them.  I should.

Here is the proposed point schedule I've come up with:

Action (point cost in parentheses)

Beat somebody up bad (down to two hp, and leave them in an alley)  (1 dagger point)
Rough somebody up and steal everything they're carrying (2 dagger points)
Rough somebody up and drop them in the desert (5 dagger points)
Rough up a fellow noble ( 2 points additional cost)
Dagger shield (prevents you from being roughed up, lasts one month) (10 points)

I really like this idea, and think it would solve a number of problems.  It could be used to punish bad roleplaying, twiking, and spamming, as well as innapropriate behavior, in a way that would actually be cool and unlikely to hurt feelings, and contribute to game environment.

And since Nobles would be the only ones to get dagger points, suddenly indepdendents will come rushing to nobles, wishing to hire them to make attacks or for protection.

And if you are thinking of lowering the amount you are paying your House employees, you could pay them in protection, or by beating up someone who was messing with them.

I think each character should have a base chance to escape, higher for theif classes.

I also think there should be a (very small) base chance to figure out who was behind it.

[Lazloth]

I'd like to think you were joking.

[Agent_137]

the point system is absurd. But nobles should be able to have people beat up. I think they already do?

[Anonymous]

the point system is absurd. But nobles should be able to have people beat up. I think they already do?

They'll get wanted.

[Xygax]

Some randon noble whined on another thread about being upstaged by some commoner.  I would be tempted to jump down this person's throat, but let's face it:  they probably have a legitamate gripe.

Completely off the subject, a discusssion was initiated (by myself, I admit it) that independents have too much power.

I disagree, and tend to think that independent hunters/guards/etc. face a relatively difficult life, if they're being RPed properly....  if you're finding that your life is too easy, it's highly possible that you are spam-crafting, killing everything in site, or stealing furniture you wouldn't otherwise be able to carry, much less secrete (these are just examples, of course).

A wide variety of solutions were proposed, that mostly included twinks to the economy.  I somehow doubt that these wil prove effective, but I have what I think will be a more effective solution.

INCREASING NOBLE POWER

My idea is this:  Each noble should get five dagger points a month.  These dagger points can be used to hire a group of NPC thugs to drag someone into an alley...and basically beat the tar out of them.

No.

This won't benefit me at all.  I am unlikely to ever play a noble, because it doesn't really interest me.  But as things stand...I'm not really afraid of nobles.  I bow to them, and call them Lord and Lady...but deep down inside, I don't really fear them.  I should.

Yes, you probably should fear some of them.  But, not all of them are homicidal maniacs, and for the most part they probably don't care very much about you.  It's when you attract their attention that you should be afraid.

Here is the proposed point schedule I've come up with:

Action (point cost in parentheses)

Beat somebody up bad (down to two hp, and leave them in an alley)  (1 dagger point)

No.

Rough somebody up and steal everything they're carrying (2 dagger points)

No.

Rough somebody up and drop them in the desert (5 dagger points)
Rough up a fellow noble ( 2 points additional cost)

No.

Dagger shield (prevents you from being roughed up, lasts one month) (10 points)

No.

I really like this idea, and think it would solve a number of problems.  It could be used to punish bad roleplaying, twiking, and spamming, as well as innapropriate behavior, in a way that would actually be cool and unlikely to hurt feelings, and contribute to game environment.

We don't punish bad roleplaying via IC means, we try to handle it out of game, as it is an out of game issue.

And since Nobles would be the only ones to get dagger points, suddenly indepdendents will come rushing to nobles, wishing to hire them to make attacks or for protection.

There are Organizations designed to handle these sorts of "problems" for nobles and commoners alike.  That you aren't aware of those organizations yet doesn't mean that NPCs should become the brutes and grunts and thugs of the world.

And if you are thinking of lowering the amount you are paying your House employees, you could pay them in protection, or by beating up someone who was messing with them.

I think each character should have a base chance to escape, higher for theif classes.

I also think there should be a (very small) base chance to figure out who was behind it.

As I said above, no.  There are already ample means and methods by which a disgruntled noble can vent their displeasure on you.  They often dine with templars (who, if you aren't afraid of them yet, you will learn to be soon enough), and they have enough money to buy thugs and grunts and brutes without the help of any point system.

[EvilRoeSlade]

If you want thugs to beat people up, then all you have to do is get some thugs to beat people up.

That was funny, though.

[Armaddict]

CRW:  Nobles don't get crimflagged unless directly opposing the militia.  They are, for the most part, unless it is treasonous to allanak, above the law.

However, they shouldn't be walking around beating up commoners, either.  Unless maybe they're a Tor noble that the rest of Tor hates because he's forgotten he's a -noble-.

As Xygax said, most of the time, a noble won't bother you.  Not unless you attract their attention.  So...don't attract attention, particularly bad attention, and a noble won't give a fuck.

And thank you, Xygax, for pointing that out about independents.  That's what I've been trying to say.  Only I've been using...a lot...more words.  Yes.  Wasting Words on Lowercases and Capitals.

[Xygax]

CRW:  Nobles don't get crimflagged unless directly opposing the militia.  They are, for the most part, unless it is treasonous to allanak, above the law.

I don't believe this is true.  If you're a noble and you want to beat on a commoner, you'll probably need to work it out with the staff in advance (or handle it somewhere quieter).

[Armaddict]

Well.  That's how it used to be.  Heh.  Because I know I've seen it happen, multiple times.  Though the npc guards used to still assist the victim.

[Bestatte]

Also I don't think the point was for the NOBLE to beat on the guy, but for the noble to have one of his lackeys do it. And currently, the crim-code doesn't allow for it. If a highly respected, high-ranking Tor guard, friend to the city, yada yada yada is guarding his noble, and some cretin comes up and threatens the noble, it is the Tor guard who'll end up in jail if he initiates combat to get rid of the cretin.

I'd love to see a change in that, but until there exists no new players in the game, who can be hired to be house guards, and since we WANT new players to come into the game, I can't think of any way for it to happen.