Getting more out of clans

[Teleri]

As of now, it seems to me that there is little point to joining a clan.  Most players figure out how to make quite a bit of money, and all it takes is a few independent characters and some time to explore.  These same people seem to go back to the same methods of getting money, and thus exploit parts of the game which probably shouldn't be so much.  It seems to be no secret that people can have independent PCs and become far more rich, powerful, and successful than even the highest of clan members.  As of now, there is no such thing as prestige, like it or not.  The nobles only seem to have it, and even that is cast down when you see then sitting around the very same places as commoners go.  To those playing such nobles:  What in the hell do you think you are doing?  Anyways, I digress from that.

My point is, that right now there isn't a whole lot drawing people to clans.  Free food, water?  Who wants that when you figure out how to easily get it yourself, and you can keep doing what you want your PC to do?  Free shelter?  So what?  You've got free quit rooms in many places.  Heightened interaction?  You can probably find that yourself, and from what I've seen from some clans recently, you aren't going to get a whole lot of PC interaction anyhow.  It saddens me greatly to see some clans fall apart because they've gotten so unfriendly to players themselves with heaping up the restrictions and confinement, without providing perks.  

Prestige should be made much more of an issue.  Right now, the only place I really see that is in regard to law enforcement in some settled areas of the game.  If you screw with those people, you're going to get yourself in a whole heap of trouble.  However, I see it as that you should get into a lot more trouble just by messing with certain other people in the city-states.

Here's how I see it:  Guards working for any noble house are automatically placed on the top of the commoner social ladder.  Aides and advisors working for individual nobles are above them.  Guards working for merchant houses are below the guards and aides working for the noble houses, and the merchants they protect are above them.  Guards and merchants of lower, though recognized, organizations are below them, ranked in the same manner.  At the head of all of these are the nobles, merchants, and recognized leaders of these people.  

What should this mean?  Here's an example:

[ex]  Guard A of Noble House X is insulted by Guard B of Merchant House Y.  Guard A is a full-fledged member of Noble House X, and he has full rights in beating the hell out of Guard B, or killing him.  No brawl code needed, he's within the law.  Of course, he can be whacked by Merchant House Y or friends of Guard B, just like always with the proper people and situation.  If Guard A insults Guard B, on the other hand, Guard B can do nothing about it, since he's of lower standing.[/ex]

The point is, that being associated with some organization should place that person above members of a lesser organization.  Having this sort of caste system, like there is regarding Allanaki nobility and their associates, would give more meaning to being a member of such clans.  Perhaps it could be made into law in one or both of the city-states, as well.  This way, you get something more out of your clan.

How I described it is a little general, without taking into account ranks higher than "full" members, but perhaps it can be worked out.

[Agent_137]

while you have to keep in mind that these are -commoners- and they wouldn't likely have developed the extensive who can offend who power structure nobles have. Plus, it'd be retarded. Walk into the gaj, sit down, some dude with some fluffly livery's like, "Dude, get up."

Oh, he'd get beat down!!

But I think prestige, as far as friendliness from the law goes, in a more general sense, would be neat.

Guard from high noble house lays out this rinth rat, just cold. City guards walk up and are like, "Good job, dude. You thirsty?"

It'd have to happen more on a PC interaction, also. People be like, "Hey, that guy works for such and such a house, let's go talk to him."

Maybe reduced prices from some npcs, if this could be coded. Might be too extensive, though.

[Bestatte]

If that was the case, then no one would -ever- hire new players..because new players don't understand the politics or "civility" issues of city roleplay. How would you like it if newbie guard of Noble House Buttplug beat the crap out of your seasoned Merchant House Horsewhip just because he knew he could, and didn't realize there might be IC consequences?

Granted, this already happens -on occasion- with militia PCs..but imagine the uproar if it happened on a regular basis?

NOTE: This is not to say that all newbies - or even most newbies - are snerts. It is to say that they are NEW - and the opportunity for snertage is far greater when you are genuinely and sincerely ignorant of "how things are."

Also note - by ignorant - I mean "unknowing" and not "an asshole"

-she who always seems to need to qualify things she writes around this joint

[Armaddict]

I hate the fact that people keep griping about this.

Joining a clan is an IC endeavor.  Most people will want to do it.  Most will not look around and think, "Krath, I can just make more money on my -own-."  It's a dangerous world where friends are of the utmost value, especially when you are the hunter type.

In my opinion, anyone who 'just decides' to stay unaffiliated is thinking in an entirely unlogical line of thought brought about by the fact they know OOC'ly that they can do well on their own.

[Krath]

I hate the fact that people keep griping about this.

Joining a clan is an IC endeavor.  Most people will want to do it.  Most will not look around and think, "Krath, I can just make more money on my -own-."  It's a dangerous world where friends are of the utmost value, especially when you are the hunter type.

In my opinion, anyone who 'just decides' to stay unaffiliated is thinking in an entirely unlogical line of thought brought about by the fact they know OOC'ly that they can do well on their own.

Amen

[Armaddict]

I read Agent's post a little closer, and I agree.

I, personally, would like to see more conflict within the city itself.  People keep asking for wars and such, but inter-house wars are the best.  The only thing stopping it is crimcode.  However, I ask...how much is that soldier -really- going to care if that Private in the Oashi elite beats the snot out of the elf who was publically mouthing Oash?

Are they going to come after that Borsail Lieutenant who just clobbered another commoner and knocked him out, after that fella called all the Borsail cowards?

Are they going to -risk- themself going after that Guilder who just openly delivered a very real threat.

THIS is where affiliations come in.  You got some backup by a group with political backing.  Let's see some consequences for that.

[My 2 sids]

I wish clans drew more people, because I agree that ICly it should make sense for people to be running through hell at a chance of getting into one of these organizations.  Sadly, I find the usual reason so many players don't want to be in a clan is that the clan has little to offer ICly.  What we really need to be asking ourselves is, why are there not more IC reasons to join a clan?  Personally, I feel it has a lot to do with poor role-play standards (this is everyone in general statement).  Just as the docs remind all players how different races or magickers should be role-played, the docs also tell us that clans should provide status.  http://www.armageddon.org/general/ranktable.html Too often this status is allowed to go unnoticed, and so IC reasons for joining a clan dwindle down to practically nothing.  The catch-22 here is that enforcement of these status role-play rules is also many times unrealistically role-played.  Part of our MUSH-like role-play enforced game means that people have to be actually willing to bow down to their betters.  The solo hunter who refuses to give up his chair to a highly-respected, noble house advisor should expect to be treated much like an elf or magicker refusing to give up their seat.  A game that stresses realistic role-play shouldn't have to have a code that says, "you are down in status from this person, you give up your chair."    This includes realistic backlashes to conflicts in game.  If someone gets put in their place by a better there shouldn't be this huge backlash of weeks of planning and fighting or deaths.  I mean, even in game there should be such a thing as a drunken bar fight.

[Armaddict]

My 2 'sids, that's what I agree with.  What the latter part of my post was about.  Being a member of some clan or another has to -mean- something.

[Cenghiz]

At least, we should have an idea how many of House X's guards are hanging around in Bard's, for example... I'm wondering if such scenario's suitable.

(Beginning.. It's just an example.. You see an independant merchant in silks.. You get interested and focus on his table.[listen] This sissy in silks talks about how he could kill three tarantulas, two youngs and one elder, without a scratch.. You laugh out loud, staring at him. He turns to you and tells you, House X's proud guard Hacker, to shut to fuck up...)
>wish all Excuse me.. I want to start trouble in Bard's.. Could someone send me if there are some other guards of House X hanging around here?
A staff member sends: "There are 3 other guards of your house. I'll back you up accordingly."
>emote stands his face red, looking around as he walks to ~silky.
A few hardy men wearing House X's uniforms stand following Hacker. (Wow, that echo would be helping enough.. Y'know.. Noone dares acting OOC while an imm's sending room echoes .. Everybody would act accordingly, even twinks.. So not codewise, but still you'd be backed up by three hardy VNPC guards. )
>emote grins looking back, then points at ~silky accusingly.
>say (his voice loud) What did'ya sayh?
>emote suddenly raises his open palm and swings a slap into %silky face.
>hit silky (let assume he could hit)
>say (with a hissing voice, eyebrows inclined) What did'ya say, shitty silk? Eh?
...........
I would love to see that done.

[wizturbo]

In allanak the only people with the authority to do any violence at all is the Templarate and the Militia.  Thats it.  The Highlord Tektolnes rules Allanak with an iron fist, and his Templarate and Militia is going to make sure everyone, even the nobility, knows that.

Now.  Could a member of a prestigous clan ask a militiaman or Templar to beat the living fuck out of some random nobody.  Yup!  Sure could!

[Agent_137]

In allanak the only people with the authority to do any violence at all is the Templarate and the Militia.  Thats it.  The Highlord Tektolnes rules Allanak with an iron fist, and his Templarate and Militia is going to make sure everyone, even the nobility, knows that.

Now.  Could a member of a prestigous clan ask a militiaman or Templar to beat the living fuck out of some random nobody.  Yup!  Sure could!

Just because they have the authority to make laws restricting violence doesn't mean it actually happens. Obviously. Otherwise, there would be no crime, and no use for a brawl code.

You can still put those upstarts in their muthafuggin' place, just in the right location, using the brawl code, and a wish currently.

Beyond that, it would be nice, as suggested earlier, and maybe practical, that a militiaman would laugh if some noble's guard kicked the shit out of a rinthrat that stole from him. Maybe. I'd have to hear it from an Imm, because while you have a good point, witzburo, it seems realistic that it could also go the other way.

[wizturbo]

Beyond that, it would be nice, as suggested earlier, and maybe practical, that a militiaman would laugh if some noble's guard kicked the shit out of a rinthrat that stole from him. Maybe. I'd have to hear it from an Imm, because while you have a good point, witzburo, it seems realistic that it could also go the other way.

I don't think I agree with this part.

The militia's power is derived from their ability to do such things.  While a Borsail guard might be considerably higher class then a rinth rat, its still not their place to dispense justice, especially in public.

Even the most crooked cops, PRETEND that they are loyal hard working public servants.  In this case, you wouldn't have to pretend very much, but laughing at a Borsail guard that is effectively doing your job for you, in public, where everyone can see that your not keeping order....that all mixes together for a bad image that the militia would never allow.

If a Borsail NOBLE was slicing up a rinth rat, then the militia might laugh and clap their hands together, if they tried to do anything the noble could demand their lives in a snap.  A Templar however, might be very displeased by such an act and might 'suggest' to a Red Robe that a certain lesser noble be spoken to about their behavior.  

Make no mistake people, in Allanak, the Templarate rules the city.  It says clearly in the docs, that the nobles appear to run the city, but realistically the Templarate makes many "suggestions" like I discussed above.  If a noble house steps too far out of line, the iron fist of Tektolnes wouldn't hesitate to remind them who controls the city.

[EvilRoeSlade]

At least, we should have an idea how many of House X's guards are hanging around in Bard's, for example...

I'm guessing none.  Trader's would be the place for them.

[EvilRoeSlade]

In my opinion, anyone who 'just decides' to stay unaffiliated is thinking in an entirely unlogical line of thought brought about by the fact they know OOC'ly that they can do well on their own.

I rarely do more than get by on my own, but I will admit that I'm influenced by my OOC knowledge that if I accepted a recruiter's offer then I'd be bored shitless in their clan.

[Mr.Camel]

I'm guessing none. Trader's would be the place for them.

A drink in the Trader's costs well over what a guard could possibly afford to pay.

[EvilRoeSlade]

It just seems to me that the Bard's Barrel, with its obvious northern ownership, obvious elven patronage, and seedy dealings hidden behind a gaudy display wouldn't be the place you'd find any citizen that wants to pretend to be respectable.

[Dracul]

I think his post about wishing up and having an imm post a single room echo is irrevelant to that its the bards, I mean that what he said was one simple example.

But...I wholeheartedly agree...nobody wants to be lest than perfect when they think an imm is watching, hell, when they know.

A few more wishing up and simple room echoes by imm paired with the ideas of ranking, then add in louder nobles(or merchants...) and a willing militia.

We just need to do it.

[Quirk]

In allanak the only people with the authority to do any violence at all is the Templarate and the Militia.  Thats it.  The Highlord Tektolnes rules Allanak with an iron fist, and his Templarate and Militia is going to make sure everyone, even the nobility, knows that.

Not precisely true, RP wise. The templarate are not going to care if a random half-elf or 'Rinther gets a doing at the hands of a noble or noble's guards. Their job is to keep the peace, yes, but the peace is kept mostly so the rich people, the people who matter, don't get upset. A templar might possibly intervene to save an important spy or informant, but in most cases stepping in to save a random commoner when it'll sour relations with a noble is a bad idea.

Code-wise, things work differently. Code-wise, the crim-flag comes on all who are not of the militia. But don't confuse this with the way things should work.

Quirk

[wizturbo]

Not precisely true, RP wise. The templarate are not going to care if a random half-elf or 'Rinther gets a doing at the hands of a noble or noble's guards.

Quirk

Your right.  They aren't going to care about the half-elf, but they -are- going to care about a noble or his guard playing Militia in Allanak regardless of the victim.  A noble themselves would of course get different treatment then their commoner guard, but STILL it wouldn't be smiled upon.  It isn't their position to act like the law.  There's an old saying.  Give someone an inch and they take a mile.  This is true in power and politics.

[Carnage]

That's because clans suck. Most of them don't have a damn thing in them that you couldn't do while unclanned. RPTs are few and far between. Complain about it or a clan being boring and you'll get a 'it's your own fault you're supposed to make your own fun'.

The only exception (and clan worth joining/staying in) is the T'zai Byn.

[Bestatte]

Eh. I had LOTS of things to do with my -two- Oash employee PCs. It was a couple of years ago, but if it -could- be fun then, I don't know why it 'can't be fun now.

When I was a templar's aide in the north, I was busy ALL THE TIME. Never a dull moment, and I didn't need IMM interaction/intervention to keep things moving along just fine.

When I played in Winrothol - it was great most of the time. A few situations that my PC got stuck in which resulted in boredom for a few days, but that was part of the RP of the situation and not any kind of overall assessment of the clan as a whole.

As an independent, I've had characters go days and days on end with nothing to do. It's no different at all, it's just the "kind" of boredom that varies.

It's also the 'kind' of excitement that varies.

[WhiteRanger]

It seems to me that the big gripe here is that clanned pc's end up being less wealthy and less powerful (in combat situations) than independent pc's. This may be true on a one on one basis. But if you had to handle these situations from a one on one basis, then you would be independent, and not in a clan.

The independent man sneers at the clanned man.

An entire room of clanned men gather around the independant man.

Welcome to Armageddon.

It really depends on the clan...If you think clans dont possess the true power here, then walk into Luirs and refuse to put up your blades. It will be a learning experience for you all.

What it boils down to is...yes independent characters may advance more quickly than clanned characters...but clanned characters are infact more powerful because of their ties, and are apt to live a whole lot longer than the independent character. So the next time some rough neck dune hopping half-breed wants to brawl, dont brawl him alone, call your four clan brothers and you can all brawl him,,,thats where your strength is at, and thats why you joined the clan, not to become the "I R UBER WARRIOR WITH LOTS OF COINS IN A CLAN".

[My 2 sids]

One idea I've had about clan vs independents is the idea of diversity.  When I read the documents about all the different houses and clans out there, I get real excited because I see struggles between different types of powers.  And yet, when I look in game, (granted this is just MOHO) I see a handful of houses/clans all operating the same way.  At the same time having an independent character allows players to have more diversity in their character's traits, lifestyles, and plotlines.  

It seems to me all the houses (merchant or noble) all have the same PC make up.  They all employ the "best" guards and they all have the most expensive tastes and they all have sneaky and shady spies, cunning and devious nobles or family members, perfectly groomed aides that always know just what to do, and magickers (south).  What I'd like to see is a bit more diversity among the houses, something that I, as a player and as a PC, can enjoy watching.  I suppose the easiest way to do this is to go back to basics of the house and hire PCs that reflect each house's unique characteristics.  Maybe Winrothol and Tor should hire a bunch of guards because they are –known- for their militaristic life-style.  Maybe Oash should hire the most PC spies and magickers.  Maybe Borsail hires more aides and those who are better equipped for the finer things in life.   I think this would at least make things more interesting with some distinction between houses. Once we have distinction, then real competition can start to happen.

The other area I think clans need to diversify is plotlines.  I would guess that the majority of plotlines (esp those driven by PCs) happen by way of the following:  House X little nothing of a guard or aide gets looked at funny by some drunk in a tavern.  The aide or guard to crying and tattling to House X's noble (or someone who has a direct connection and ear of said noble) and then House X's noble takes personal offence to a house guard or aide (that they probably don't even know because the house employs hundreds) and vows to retaliate.  Suddenly the plot doors close to the majority of people in game and in clans while the Nobles plot or talk with one or two PCs, if any, to have this "problem" taken care of).  In the mean time it turns out that this drunk actually belongs to House B so now House B has taken personal offence and the whole thing starts over again.  Now, I understand that some things go on behind closed doors and that houses have to look out for their employees and whatnot, but this is getting extreme.  The point is I think the player who enjoys playing the average Joe (someone who isen't perfectly groomed, always cunning and in control, doesn't always say the right thing or get along perfectly with everyone, or who won't have access to behind closed doors meetings) is just getting bored with what is offered by clans.  These players see independent characters as a way to breath fresh air and new ideas into a stagnant game.  What I think clans need to do (esp. for lower-ranking employees) is open up a bit to let PCs start and finish their own plotlines.  People like a little conflict, it can be seen by how many players love the new brawl code, and it should be realistic that some lower-ranking clan members (or personal issues for hirer-ranking workers) are allowed to have a bit of conflict without everything turning into a heroic epic!  Players and Imms need to monitor and continue to ensure that conflict between and in houses stay on a realistic scale.

I believe that a little more diversity and openness of realistic scale (not all three hundred employees will always get along or be perfect yet they do not to be killed off or mutilated or even punished by nobles) will make playing in a clan much more enjoyable by the majority of players.  The more enjoyable, the more the players will want to participate.

[sarahjc]

Just my quick view on this.

I for one think that there should be prestige, but prestige in the sense that it takes the right people to be hired into a clan.. I am just now learning the importance of being very selective when choosing clan members.. I don't see the point in hiring anyone, or anyone right away into a clan. You should be sure that people really want to join and that they have what it takes to make the clan look good and or be profitable.

There should really be a sense that joining a clan is an accomplishment, and that your PC has what it takes to get in. Should all clan leaders do that I think there would be a small sense of awe for those that don Noble house and Merchant house cloaks.. Merchant houses having different criteria then Noble houses of course.  But that by being accepted into a house, you have proven yourself to be above the average commoner.

The rest of the roughnecks can join the Byn, if they want to be clanned. That is what those hard ass, ignorant, filthy Byn Sergeants are for.

[Angela Christine]

I remember once, about three years ago, as the first step of the interview process an applicant was told to bring the noble (or it might have been a flunky, I don't quite recall) the head of a scrab he had killed himself.  

I thought this was very cool.  There were a few more scrabs around Allanak than there are now, so finding a scrab certainly wouldn't be a problem.  A newbie warrior and even a newbie ranger has a pretty good chance of baging a scrab, if he is smart about it.  A smart character could also find other ways of aquiring a scrab head, if he wasn't inclined to risk his own neck killing one.  It presented the would-be noble guard with a sort of mini-quest, a quest that had several possible solutions.

Now getting the head didn't guarentee getting the job.  Bringing in the scrab head only earned the applicant the chance for an interview.  It was a test of basic martial and/or mental competence.  The noble didn't care if you came back the next day, a month later, or never came back at all.  If you couldn't do it,  you probably were not good enough to be a recruit.  If you decided not to even try, you probably don't have the spine to be a soldier.  Either way you were not in trouble, you just wouldn't get the job.

That made even getting to the lowly rank of recruit an accomplishment.  For a new character aquiring a scrab head is a quest, a slightly silly quest, but a quest none the less.  When you bring in the head, especially if you do it the hard/honorable way and actually solo-kill the scrab yourself, you've EARNED your chance to prove yourself as a recruit of House Fancypants.

It also provided a convinient escape hatch for players who did NOT want their PC to be recruited into the house, but had gotten swept up in events.  "Fail" to get the head and you won't be allowed to join, but you haven't offended the noble in the process.

Although I think it was very cool, I'm not suggesting scrab heads become a standard recruiting tool.  It isn't a particularily newbie-friendly method, especially these days when you can easily get unlucky run into two beetles and a tarantula before you find the right kind of scrab, assuming you even go in the right direction to find scrabs.  But harsh, creative recruiting methods can actually make your clan more attractive, and make earning a place in that clan more prestigious.  


AC