Fatigue

[JollyGreenGiant]

I've brought this up in the past, but I wanted to reopen the discussion with a new perspective.  I'd like to begin by outlining the basic premise of the problem that I perceive, and that is that there is nothing preventing a combat between two parties from lasting for 30+ RL minutes (3+ game hours).  A corollary to this problem is the situation where two skilled warriors are fighting, and the only deciding factor is a few repeated kicks by one combatant or the other.

My opinion is that no matter how tough and hardy you are, over a long period of rigorous physical activity you should wear down.  I would also rather see long fights decided not by who can kick more, but how well you manage your combat skills and endurance.  I have three ideas on how this could be implemented.

1) Add periodic stamina drain.  Every RL minute of combat (or other time period), you lose stamina.  You could have a base amount to lose based on race, then factor in physical stats (agility, strength, endurace) and encumbrance.  Give combat activities (such as kick) a stamina cost to use.

2) Vastly increase the rate of water consumption.  This is actually my favorite way of handling the situation, because I think it would require the least coding effort, and the dehydration code already does sufficiently bad things to you.  Not only that, hard physical activity should sap your hydration level quickly, so this change seems fairly realistic.

3) A combination of the two.  Increase the rate of dehydration during combat, and implement stamina costs for combat activities such as a kick.

What do you think?  Is this something people even deem worth "solving", or are people content with 30-minute combat sessions?  Maybe you agree that there's a problem, but you have a better solution?

Note: If your solution is "people should just rp getting tired", that's fine, but just know that I disagree with that particular solution; it in no way addresses the code problem of resolving a 30-minute fight.  If you want to rp being tired and fumbling your sword, or dropping to one knee (codewise sitting), I will admire you greatly, and I think those still make excellent additions to coded consequences of continuous combat.  The fact is, however, that as with combat in general, this is an area that I believe is better left to the code, and coded consequences.

[Carnage]

it in no way addresses the code problem of resolving a 30-minute fight

The code doesn't resolve a variety of bigger problems.

[Anonymous]

And unhittably agile warrior D-elfs with their drastically higher stamina will rule the day.

I honestly don't have a problem with a fight costing stamina, but there needs to be a ceiling for that stamina loss at 50% max stamina.  Fights ending because one side got too tired to continue lifting their swords is so anti-climactic it turns my stomach.

Not to mention I'd really like to be able to defend myself during a long trek through the desert after having lost my kank.

I've never heard of or seen 30+ minute fights, so I do not believe this is a pervasive 'problem' that needs to be fixed.  Moreover, Zalanthan denizens can ride/run halfway across the known world in a day, so it should only follow that they are hardy enough to last through a fight longer than we could.

I'm all for measured realism, but I think this goes too far with little benefit.

Playability > Realism.

[Forest Junkie]

Agreed with CRW.

[sacac]

I'm all for measured realism, but I think this goes too far with little benefit.

Playability > Realism.

I agree with CRW
Adrenaline throws out all rules of anything, I'd say.
If I was taking damage and dying of thirst, Who the hell cares if your thirsty? Your mind/body/everything else is trying to get you to survive a fight.

Hm.. experience time.

when i was a smaller girl then I am now, (14? maybe 15?) I was riding my bike after playing a sport with my friends (Toss the tom-boy slogans here) and I was STARVING (Not exactly like thirsty, but bite me) but before i got home, my back tire slid out from under me and I scraped my knee (Yes, i know, I wasn't fighting but bite me) but for some strange reason, I wasn't hungry anymore! I was pissed off surely. but I don't remember being hungry after that. (Bah) Flame away you.. flaming people

[sheep]

It doesn't matter how much andrenaline is going through your system, if your body is dehydrated enough your performance will deteriorate and you'll eventually collapse in the middle of battle.

I support the idea of leaking stamina during battle; if you're going to lose stamina taking a few steps through a forest, I don't see why you don't lose stamina when you're swinging a heavy sword at someone while trying to dodge their blows at the same time. Ofcourse, for playability purposes, stamina should be hemorrhaged, but it shouldn't remain unaffected either.

[Agent_137]

why don't you pretend that your character takes care to swing slowly enough to not tire themselves out?

[Delirium]

In the middle of a pitched battle for their very life?

Anyway, though I see and agree with the reasoning behind this, I think the way it is now is necessary for playability reasons.

[Angela Christine]

What if it wasn't based on time, but on activity?  Like a 10% chance of losing 1 dot of staminia each time you attack, and perhaps a 5% chance of losing 1 dot of staminia each time you deflect an attack.  Each time you do a special combat manuver (bash, kick, backstab, disarm, etc.) you would lose 1-5 stamina whether your manuver was successful or not.  Charge (and perhaps Pull Reins if that ever gets fixed) would affect the stamina of the mount, not the rider.

When you got down to a certain point, say 50 stamina or maybe 20,  you would no longer be able to attempt special combat manuvers, you would get an echo saying you are too tired to do that.  But at that point regular combat (hit and defense) would stop draining stamina.  You are very tired, and if you keep fighting you will stay very tired.



The elf thing wouldn't really be an issue.  Yes, a fully rested elf would have an advantage over a fully rested non-elf.  But often an elf is not fully rested, often and elf and human come into conflict when the human is mounted (and nearly fully rested) but the elf is at least a little tired.  If the elves stratigically plan an ambush and rest up for it they will have a stamina advantage, if the humans statigically plan an ambush half-way between popular elven resting spots the humans will have a stamina advantage.

It wouldn't be a problem for sparring, most matches are called off after a couple hours regardless.


The place where it would most likely be a problem is when people are trying to get a lot of things done in a small amount of time.  Like those mass battles that sometimes pop up -- you might get combatents having to colapse to the ground and rest for a few minutes before being able to run to the next room to help a buddy.  Or during a clan RPT where you have to go to location X, do activity Z, and then make it home, and do it with unrealistic haste because people will need to start logging off in 3-4 hours.  If all goes well you can complete the mission in 3-4 hours, but if you encounter some random (or not so random) gith attacks stamina drain will just make these things take LONGER to resolve, and increase the chance that some players will have to start whining about needing to log off, or suddenly go link-dead when Mom comes along and unplugs the computer.  :shock:  A lot of the things that can be accompished with unrealistic speed seem to be designed that way so that group RPTs can proceed smoothly.  ICly there is no reason why a mission can't go on continuously for a week or more, because ICly people probably don't stay awake for 4 days straight and then sleep for 12.  Trying to arrange a RPT so that you will do half today and then half tommorow is hellish: some people can log on for more than the appointed hours so they wander around and get into trouble while most people are logged off, others will have RL distractions and forget (or be unable) to log back in at the appointed time to continue the mission, so not only with they (and the supplies they were carrying) be unavailble, but they may also be stuck in the spot they logged out if they log in later after the rest of the group has finished the mission and gone home.  

Of course making things easier for group RP sessions also means that a dedicatated lone hunter can kill 1500 pounds of meat in one session and only be able to carry home 100, but what can you do?  


AC

[Trenidor]

Haven't Any of you learned anything from the Greeks?

Seriously...battles would last forever, the only thing that would allow you to live was:

A) people didn't attack you

B) you were able to run farther and faster, strike quicker and stronger, be more lively in battle because you wouldn't ever tire out. The other guy would be so tired that he couldn't run anymore, sure it took a long time, but it was only around 1/4 of the day. 6hr RL.

The Greek armor was too hot inside as well and dehydration caused them to die off. When they went at the persians, they went moved slow because they were burning up inside their inclosed helmets.


I'm all for combination C.

Dehydration, and stamina loss would make those day long battles at the HRPTs more realistic.

Slow down combat after reaching a % of stamina. After it reaches the 10-0 % range they'd be worn out and it'd take forever to get a hit in. Meanwhile, on the other side, the d-elf is owning in battle.. he's still got 60% and gets attacks in like mad.

Activity wouldn't calculate the foot movements or other body movements it takes for battle. There isn't a single style of fighting that you just stand there (that I know of...If you know any tell me cuz I'm a lazy ass)

Anyway....I'm just voiceing my part, I like this idea.

I vote yes.

[Gorobei]

I like this idea.  I've always liked this idea.
Who cares about anti-climactic?  This is Armageddon, not The Chronicles of Riddick.
The playability issue, of course, is the bigger one.  I'm going to go against the grain and say that this would enhance it.  This addition, in my opinion, would add a serious element of strategy to combat which Armageddon is lacking, especially in warriors.  Also, it would give a boost to the usefulness of endurance, which is a wasted stat right now.  Most importantly, it would add to the realism of the game.  If you don't think you get tired when fighting, you've never been in a fight.
To balance the length of missions that this would add, I suggest that stamina should regenerate faster in the desert.  Walking is easy.  If I was hiking through the desert, heat and thirst would stop me far before getting out of breath.

[Lazloth]

What if it wasn't based on time, but on activity?  Like a 10% chance of losing 1 dot of staminia each time you attack, and perhaps a 5% chance of losing 1 dot of staminia each time you deflect an attack.  Each time you do a special combat manuver (bash, kick, backstab, disarm, etc.) you would lose 1-5 stamina whether your manuver was successful or not.  Charge (and perhaps Pull Reins if that ever gets fixed) would affect the stamina of the mount, not the rider.

When you got down to a certain point, say 50 stamina or maybe 20,  you would no longer be able to attempt special combat manuvers, you would get an echo saying you are too tired to do that.  But at that point regular combat (hit and defense) would stop draining stamina.  You are very tired, and if you keep fighting you will stay very tired.

Would've suggested this had AC not posted.
I like the thirst angle too.

[JollyGreenGiant]

Wow, thanks for all the feedback so far, both positive and negative.  Except Carnage.  What the crap?  Anyway.  I'll step in and address a few things, make some adjustments.

And unhittably agile warrior D-elfs with their drastically higher stamina will rule the day.

Just to play devil's advocate for a moment, all other factors being equal, why wouldn't a warrior, any warrior, of superior agility and endurance have an advantage over his opponent?

Fights ending because one side got too tired to continue lifting their swords is so anti-climactic

I wouldn't suggest that dropping in stamina cause you to no longer be able to fight, but incur penalties instead.  Also, anti-climactic... as compared to what?  Kicking your opponent to death because you can't get a hit in otherwise?

The place where it would most likely be a problem is when people are trying to get a lot of things done in a small amount of time.

It might have an effect there, true.  I assume that any change like this would require a bit of testing to ensure it doesn't damage overall playability.  My hope would be, that as Gorobei suggested, it would add a level of playability and be an enhancement to the game by adding an additional dynamic factor to combat.

What if it wasn't based on time, but on activity? Like a 10% chance of losing 1 dot of staminia each time you attack, and perhaps a 5% chance of losing 1 dot of staminia each time you deflect an attack.  Each time you do a special combat manuver (bash, kick, backstab, disarm, etc.) you would lose 1-5 stamina whether your manuver was successful or not. Charge (and perhaps Pull Reins if that ever gets fixed) would affect the stamina of the mount, not the rider.

That's not a bad suggestion either.  I assume you'd factor in things like encumbrance, agility, strength, and adjust the chances of losing stamina accordingly?

It'd be neat to have extra dehydration and stamina loss, but on the whole, that might be a bit overwhelming since dehydration already has its own set of consequences.  If both were balanced, though, I think that would be the most interesting way to handle it.

[Stroker]

I like it the way it is. People realize that they get tired during the fight, they rp it that way and they break the fight accordingly. No coded, added features are needed. It's what divides rping from just plain hacking and slashing. If we're having trouble doing this basic task and require a coded safeguard to prevent it, then perhaps instead of advocating this, we should be advocating and stressing roleplay to a greater extent.

The idea has merits, I just feel that, much like with the masks that don't hide your description, it is up to the player to decide how tired their character becomes over the course of a battle.

[Cenghiz]

I used to learn Tai-boxing from a tutor when about 5 years ago. It's wasn't being tired.. It was like feeling dizzy. After guarding against the third uber-hard kick of the tutor, you couldn't raise that knee not because you were tired, 'cause you didn't feel the leg.
Also I'm nearly adept in nunhacku, and I have to say that I may swing that thing for hours as an exercise and I'm a weak person for sure.
Let's make it stun based. For every combat movement you swing the sword, being parried, then your hand would feel limper and limper because of the vibration caused by the clash. so there would be a possible 'stun' decrease, like a stone hit your hand.
So if we had a possible stun decrease on both sides for a parry or deflection, it would still be realistic. Not that realistic but, at least you would know that a battle of three hours would knock you down. But there are more issues to be solved, especially blanking out.
Err.. This was just my two wooden coins which are not worth anything I guess.