Lack of Powerful PCs from Europe.

[Gaare]

In those days there are many PCs from Europe Online for example now there are more then thirty players and this is really high for these hours...

Of course I'm not exactly sure of it but there are not really powerful PCs from Europe.. I mean It's really hard to see a Noble PC in these Playing times or a sergant... I don't know exactly the reason.. But I really like to see a PC templar in Europe peaks..

I really wonder why this is happening..  What do you think?

[Northlander]

I think the general thought of the immortal ones is that the European playerbase will not grow even if there are more Nobles and Templars about on our times. Consequently, the few high-up roles there are, are restricted from European players and instead used to further the game at times the most are online.

If there's to be a change in this assignment of roles, I believe we off-peak first have to grow in numbers without them. It's rather a shame, and I wouldn't mind seeing a role-assignment experiment on a grander scale than what's occasionally done now.

[Nidhogg]

European players are not for the most part asking for these roles. At least, they're not asking for a role in Nenyuk.

Additionally, there is a clan whose last two leaders were from Europe.

[Quirk]

I've seen longlived noble PCs played by Europeans, and people from still stranger time-zones. Leadership roles are certainly open to European players, and if you feel fewer are taking them up than might be, why not angle to get your own PC into a leadership capacity?

Quirk

[Mar]

From another side, I was told couple of times, that I probably won´t be able to play <include name> role, because I am not on during a peak hours. Or it will be problematic to get that role. Or that role is oftener given to players from peak hours. Or there are not enough nobles/templars/merchants/anything in my timezone, so I cannot play <whatever>.
But well, there is still lot of other roles... I will wait a bit, tell more friends about great possibilities on Arm and we will start an European clan  :wink:

[Naiona]

European players are welcome to apply for the currently open Borsail position.  The same restrictions and rules about good account notes and standards of play apply as to any other players.

[Sandferret]

I have played a leadertype role twice. I'm not going to speculate if they were 'really powerful', but I am European.

I happen to be awake very early today (5 a.m. at the posting) and could make it to 'primetime' today. I will never apply for a position that lists 'must be able to play primetime' as a requirement. I would either be getting up at 4 a.m. daily or stress over not doing so, provided I even was given the benefit of a doubt and got the role.

But there are Europeans playing all sorts of roles.

[ashyom]

I'm one of the staff that asks for people who plays the prime-time.  One of the reasons I like having prime-time player is because, well, those are my hours.  I consider it important to watch my clan players, especially when they're new to the role.  Then it's easier for me to explain why this or that was good, and that wasn't.

Also, the other reason I like having prime-time players is because it's easier for me to run quests, rpts, and plotines for my clans because, well.  I'm there to do it.

The european players are precisely why we staff have begun to try recruit new staffers that play a diverse hours.  I believe Ammit, Adhira, and Wachabe (among others) tend to play on European time, and if playing a clan is something one of you would like to do, you might consider contacting them.  Alternatively, if you aren't sure which clan you want to apply for, you can shoot the mud an email and ask for help in figuring this out.
Hope this helps.
Ashyom

[Tmp]

I think the topic should be modified to, "Lack of PCs from Europe (and other parts of the world)".

[PonchosAreGoodPonchosCanB]

For some of us who are on so erratically as myself, I don't think playing times really matter. One day, we can be on doing X at X hour, the next day be on at Y doing Y. The important issue at hand is to be on consistently at X time of X days for certain this way your people can reach you and if somebody wants work or something, they need to just meet the fellow once to get recruited and arrange for payment, etc. through some other player who happens to be on at both times.

So, consistant play-times = Yay, happy dance! Long, strange hours sporadically played = Go away! Short, strange hours sporadically played to such an extent it is impossible to so much as find you ever = Not a clan suitable for PCs if this person is the only recruiter or a major aspect of your play.

[My 2 sids]

I think the topic should be modified to, "Lack of PCs from Europe (and other parts of the world)".

For an American based game I'm always surprised at the number of players from different parts of the world.  What's more, the game boasts play 24/7 but as ashyom admits, this is a bit misleading.  And, thus it's not simply a lack of European players.  We should all also understand a lack of European (off-peak time) nobles and high-ranking people affect all players.  The off-peak time players who do want to participate in big roles don't and won't (as ashyom stated) get the chance to do so.  What's more, that means all of us will never experience what a European player could bring to the game.  It's quite sad to think that here we have very detected players who could have enough wits to be one of the strongest leaders of the PC world, but we will never know because they happen to be playing during European times.  This is an issue affecting everyone in the game and I for one would like to see it addressed by all.

Personally, I don't think attracting more people to play during off-peak times is the answer.  I believe with a bit of effort and reorganization this issue could be fixed a bit better.  We now have a "who" command that let's those in small, spread out, clans see who from their clan is online.  Why we cannot advertise which clans or cities have a large percentage of off-peak time players I don't understand.  If we could simply say X clan deals most with off-peak hours, then players could direct their characters to those clans.  Once the clans have a higher number of off-peak hour players, then a off-peek hour leader makes sense.  Most houses have GDB or IC boards that can be used for IC information. I would think if these IC boards are used more often for IC communication, it would help with communications between off-peak and peak players.  If communication is there, I don't think not being able to directly interact with a leader is so important.   Let the non-peak noble have a high-ranking slave or aide that plays during peak hours and can assist with passing out pay, hiring new people, taking care of meetings, etc. It's just the off-peak noble would be one who gets to make the choices.

[Tmp]

Why we cannot advertise which clans or cities have a large percentage of off-peak time players I don’t understand.  If we could simply say X clan deals most with off-peak hours, then players could direct their characters to those clans.  Once the clans have a higher number of off-peak hour players, then a off-peek hour leader makes sense.

I think it's because people have shown resistance to having a clan being pigeon-holed as an off-peak clan. There are things about different clans that attract different people to play in them, regardless of their playing time. It's hard in that way.

Everything would be simple if the number of PCs who play offpeak equal the number of PCs who play during peak. That way we have a fairly equal distribution of players among all layers of society. For example, off-peak Nenyuk players could hire off-peak T'zai Byn for interaction, rather than having everyone be in Nenyuk or the T'zai Byn. Of course, easier said than done, unfortunately.

Maybe setting up an independant off-peak player clan? There would be a problem of identity though ... and what to do when there is nobody else outside that clan to interact with.

[Akaramu]

For an American based game I'm always surprised at the number of players from different parts of the world.

Is there such a thing as a non-american based online game? If there is, I have never encountered it. Other than well, maybe Lineage. But who plays Lineage?

I prefer to see online games as international, no matter where the server is located at. There are more american players than others because a) not everyone types english well enough to participate in such games, b) America is HUGE.

What really upsets me are people who claim "this is an American game, it wasnt made for people like you so dont complain". There are no games "for Europeans". Period. I am glad I have never seen such comments on here.

That being said, it saddens me when a role I suggest to the clan immortals is blown off because of activity times, especially when I get into the same clan and the same role through other IC means anyway afterwards, because it is how things turned out. And I enjoy said role immensely, and it works out well for me. It makes me feel unappreciated and unwelcome, simply because I was told "no, you cant do that" when it was still an idea and not yet IC reality.

Even though I never experienced anything like it, the possibility that I might someday not be promoted to leadership of a clan after a long time of steady playing and contributing to a clan simply because of my playing times scares me. If anything like this ever was the case, it would severely discourage me from ever wanting to play in that clan again.

Lets look at it this way. There are 24 hours in a day. Maybe 6 of them can be considered the actual peak. Then there are a couple more hours in a day when 15 or less players are on, and at least 10 hours a day when I see 25-50 players. I see a lot of activity and interesting things going on during those 10 hours that are not considered 'peak'. There is plotting, intrigue, death, struggle. Are those 10 hours a day worth nothing? Should all plot-driving roles be cookie cutter schemed into those 6 hours that not even all Americans can attend? I have seen plenty of IC frustration when there were 45 players online, but not one single PC templar seemed available when one was needed.

I dont exactly see why leader roles must fit into peak times period. Like described above, its not like there is "nothing to do" and "nothing going on" the rest of the day. I understand that a clan immortal would want to keep an eye on their leaders, but why not have them send logs and regular updates? Set up a time for regular ingame meetings? Set time and date for quests and RPTs? If a player is trusted enough to be given a leadership role, why not trust them to do their job right when no immortal is watching?

Yay for my endless babbling. My clan imms know about it  

[Anonymous]

I've been playing a few years now.  Most of it was in the US, but the last two years has been from Europe (until recently).  One of the times I was most active on the game, I was in a clan with a European immortal, a US noble, and I was in the US.  I played during US work hours.  We had no problem having a lot of fun, and having enough interaction to keep us entertained.  I can't see why that can't be the case for European players.

Here is the thing.  Playing from Europe, the average player count on is MUCH higher than when I played that character.  It was 97 or 98, and we were playing when between 0 (infrequent, maybe once a week) and 10 other players were on.  I don't see having a noble that regularly plays off peak hours as much different than how things were when Arm just had a lower player count.  Thats just my opinion though.

[Anonymous]

I've been playing a few years now.  Most of it was in the US, but the last two years has been from Europe (until recently).  One of the times I was most active on the game, I was in a clan with a European immortal, a US noble, and I was in the US.  I played during US work hours.  We had no problem having a lot of fun, and having enough interaction to keep us entertained.  I can't see why that can't be the case for European players.

Here is the thing.  Playing from Europe, the average player count on is MUCH higher than when I played that character.  It was 97 or 98, and we were playing when between 0 (infrequent, maybe once a week) and 10 other players were on.  I don't see having a noble that regularly plays off peak hours as much different than how things were when Arm just had a lower player count.  Thats just my opinion though.

[JollyGreenGiant]

I'd just like to point out that the view on playing times vary from Immortal to Immortal.  Some, like ashyom, state that they prefer to take leaders who play during peak hours.  I have known others in the past who were less interested in exactly which hours so much as how many hours per week you could be on.  A simple email to the clan Imm advertising an open position is usually sufficient to find out whether or not they're interested in peak hourage

[Ammit]

I believe Ammit, Adhira, and Wachabe (among others) tend to play on European time, and if playing a clan is something one of you would like to do, you might consider contacting them.

I am often around during European times and am more then happy to consider someone who plays during those times. If you primarily play during European times feel free to apply for a Winrothol noble role.

[Pantoufle]

I'm curious what the imms who only recruit players from peak hours would do if suddenly their noble or templar in question can't login at those times.  Will you force them to retire the character?  I can understand wanting some characters on at your time, but to outright refuse people from European (or other) time zones, to me, is rather unfortunate.  I can't tell you how many times I've seen a brand spanking new character show up in a clan, and not a minute after he's out of the Hall of Kings, he's making a post mentioning how he'll be outta town for a bit, or scarce, etc.  It also seems to me (and I admit, I could be wrong here, I can only base my opinion on my vantage point) that clans which recruit peak hour players only seem to lack any number of players at all.

I've recently moved to the states (temporarily) from Europe, and I can say during my time Arming back there, I was able to play a few feature roles (nobles, templars, etc.) without much problem finding people to interact with.  It may be the lack of interest in European timezoned players, so much as inability.  Though I don't really like this notion of refusing players in your clan based on timezone, especially when you consider that people's login times are prone to change quite frequently.

[wizturbo]

Some clans have limits on the number of certain roles they'll accept.

For example if House Kadius allows only 1 merchant per city, i'd greatly prefer they accept a merchant who would have more 'prime time' activity because more people could interact with that merchant.

This however, I see only for application roles.

If a PC works their way up the ladder within a clan, their playing times shouldn't matter at all, and I'd argue the 'cap' should be raised.  These clans are virtually huge, and there shouldn't be OOC restrictions on whether or not a person can be promoted if they're fit for the position.  

Even if the PC plays on -very- off times, if they manage to do stuff worthy of promotion at those off times, then i'm sure they could handle the promotion too.

[Pantoufle]

If a PC works their way up the ladder within a clan, their playing times shouldn't matter at all, and I'd argue the 'cap' should be raised. These clans are virtually huge, and there shouldn't be OOC restrictions on whether or not a person can be promoted if they're fit for the position.

Any PC who worked his way up in the ranks, did it as a commoner and thus will never reach certain levels or positions.

I still think it's unfortunate that there are certain roles restricted according to playing time.  If you put all Oash nobles (as a hypothetical example) in peak hours only, then the ONLY time you will ever meet an Oash noble is during peak hours.  You're automatically restricting a large group of people from meeting those characters, and essentially making the clan a ghost town to all but peak hour logins.  I think it makes more sense to have characters from numerous login times, not just one time (that being, peak hours).

And also, like I said, it's real easy to pick someone who says they are available during peak hours then suddenly no longer is on then once approved.  I mean, what are you going to do?  Make them retire?  This just sounds to me like a sure fire way to keep a clan unpopulated.

[wizturbo]

For app only roles (like noble positions) it might just take some convincing to the clan immortal that having a noble in that off-peak hours would be benefital.  If no amount of convincing works, it sucks, but thats life.  OOC does hinder some things, and you just gotta work around it.

[Anonymous]

I still think it's unfortunate that there are certain roles restricted according to playing time.  If you put all Oash nobles (as a hypothetical example) in peak hours only, then the ONLY time you will ever meet an Oash noble is during peak hours.  You're automatically restricting a large group of people from meeting those characters, and essentially making the clan a ghost town to all but peak hour logins.  I think it makes more sense to have characters from numerous login times, not just one time (that being, peak hours).

And also, like I said, it's real easy to pick someone who says they are available during peak hours then suddenly no longer is on then once approved.  I mean, what are you going to do?  Make them retire?  This just sounds to me like a sure fire way to keep a clan unpopulated.

I still think it's unfortunate that some people have to endure playing a USA-*based* game from Europe. But it is a USA-*based* game, and the majority of its staff members and players live in the USA and work or have school during the usual USA-*based* working hours. If I was to play a game based in Germany, I wouldn't gripe about the staff not having enough support during -their- off times. I'd either accept that I'm playing an unpopular time for Germans, or I'd find another game, or I'd recruit more people from the states to interact with me in the German-based game.

Ashyom has already stated very clearly why she tends to recruit only for -her- availability time, but maybe you missed it: A recruited position (noble, merchant house person with authority, templar, etc.) requires staff support and staff interaction. It doesn't just get it as a perk of playing that role, it is actually necessary to make sure the role is being played responsibly, and that the role has the support needed to intervene when things pop up out of nowhere and need to be dealt with by a higher-up.

If Ashyom, who isn't available to give this support, offered a Kadian agent role to someone who is only available between 3AM and 7AM Eastern Time, and that Kadian wishes up for help because a Noble is about to kill him because the noble's order never came through - that Kadian is going to be met with silence. Guaranteed. If three templars, two nobles, and a pack of Kadian employees all e-mail Ashyom to complain that the Kadian agent is fucking up royally and was obviously not qualified to take the role, those nobles, templars, and employees will all be met with "Oh - woops? Sorry" whenever Ashyom happens to be available to read her e-mail. Wishing up won't do any of these people any good because Ashyom won't be there to intervene when the fuckup occurs.

What I'd like to know, is why would anyone who lives on off-peak times WANT to have a role in a clan whose IMM isn't available during those hours? The real estate agency closes at 7. You wanna buy a house, either buy it before 7, or find an agency with different hours. The agency doesn't owe ANYONE the right to visit them after 7. That's just a fact of life. If you can't handle this fact in a fantasy game, I don't think I want to see how you respond to similar issues in real life. I don't see what the big deal is. There ARE clans that encourage all time-zones to apply for roles, which is indicative of the fact that there are more IMMs from all time zones. I think this is an awesome change and reflects a growing worldwide player base.

So instead of whining about what you can't have, why not thank the IMMs who CAN accommodate you for what you can have?

[Pantoufle]

I'm not whining.  I'm making a rebuttal.  I'm trying to present an opposing, thoughtful argument, as is common among discussion boards.  I don't have to agree with Ashyom or anyone else, and thankfully I have the free will of presenting my viewpoint on the matter, which I think I already did.

Thank you for reminding me that this is a "USA" based game.

[Mar]

Well... I think this was really not needed. As we all heard, there -are- IMMs and there -are- Nobles/Templars/Merchants in off peak times (IMMs playing "USA *based* game" in off peak hours... just think about it). Maybe there is not lot of them, but every single european player knows there are more and more people playing during our days...
I am not going to move in USA just because I want to play a Noble. I am going to show I am able to play a Noble and wait for announcement without "peak-hours players only".
And... maybe it´s not really important for you, Anonymus, but trust me that if every European player leave Arm, you will notice there is suddenly less players in ALL times. And as far as I know, less players often means less fun.

[Akaramu]

I still think it's unfortunate that some people have to endure playing a USA-*based* game from Europe. But it is a USA-*based* game, and the majority of its staff members and players live in the USA and work or have school during the usual USA-*based* working hours. If I was to play a game based in Germany, I wouldn't gripe about the staff not having enough support during -their- off times.

Thats exactly the kind of comment I was hoping to not ever have to see. I already said what I had to say, no point in kicking the dead monkey.

But I'll repeat this one thing.

There are no german based games.

There are no EU, and no African, and no Australian based games I know of. At least none worth playing. There are a number of Asian, and thats about it. So, what do those Australian, EU and african players do? They play international games. They work on staff in such games, and contribute to it as much as the US players do. As long as the server is open to everyone, it is an international game. There are more US participants than others for the reasons I mentioned before.

That being said, I wish more people would stand to their opinion.

With their name.

EDIT small p.s.: You have no idea how frustrating it can be to really, really need a templar PC and there are 40 players on... but no PC templar, for weeks straight, until it is too late IC.