Lack of Powerful PCs from Europe.

[Anonymous]

Ya know what Mar, I think you glossed over - and I mean totally glossed over the fact that I mentioned that Armageddon has IMMs who play during off times, and that they recruit for roles for their clans during those times, and that I thought this was a great thing.

I'll let you in on a little secret - I'm not from Europe, but I -do- play at off-peak hours, and I am usually not available to play during the times when things REALLY get exciting. Not once have I had a problem with it, or felt it was unfair, or took issue with it, or griped about it. When I play in the morning, MY time USA, there are between 5 and 20 other players visible according to the WHO list. I might be lucky to actually interact with two during the 2-4 hours of time I spend playing in the morning.

What makes you think this is an anti-Europe thing? That's the attitude I get from your post - that you think the IMMs have problems against Europeans, and that I have a problem with Europeans. Some of the IMMs ARE from places other than the States (though not all from the geographical location known as Europe), and some of us stateside players can't get into involved plotlines after 10 eastern, which is when most of the more "wow" things occur.

I'm in the same boat you are and all I see is a gorgeous view from my side of the boat. All you see are the sharks in the water. Maybe try looking at the same view from a different perspective, and the sharks will magickally disappear.

[Anonymous]

Arumaku, the posts I'm reading from off-peak players are pretty clear - they feel that they are being forced to endure USA-peak times. This is what they are presenting to me in their posts. I find it unfortunate that they feel they have to "endure" this.  It's a real shame, as far as I'm concerned, that the staff members put their hearts and souls into this game, and a vocal minority takes issue with the fact that one or two of those IMMs dare to be unavailable to support a couple of clans during times when off-peak players play. I think it's a selfish attitude for anyone to have, whether they are from Europe, or the States, or Timbuktu.

This game is available 24/6. Certain clans are only able to have staff support for a limited amount of time. Certain clans are UNABLE to provide support for some of this time, and it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever for those clans to actively recruit players to play "important" roles during times which the clan IMM is unable to provide support.

I don't think it's all that complicated, and I don't see why anyone has a problem with it.

[Mar]

Huh?
I said that there are IMMs playing in my timezone... and that means "IMMs have problems against Europeans"?
I said the best way how to become a Noble is show you are able to handle a role... and that´s "an anti-Europe thing"?
I said there is couple of players from Europa in this "USA *based* game"... and that means I see sharks?
Hmm, alright. Let me think about it.

[JollyGreenGiant]

I'm not sure I understand what there is left to argue about.  It is possible for non-peak players to play nobles - Ammit has 2 roles available, in fact.  Most immortals prefer people whose playing times match their own - with good reason.  That shouldn't come as a surprise.

The game is hosted in the USA, and a plurality of the players are somewhere between GMT -800 and GMT -500.  Quite a few players do not live in the US.  Not all US players play during peak hours, not all non-US players play during non-peak hours.

Did I miss any other relevant information?  What it comes down to is that special app roles such as nobles and templars are entirely at the discretion of immortals responsible for them.  I imagine the number of immortals who work with off-peak players (and therefore, the number of potential off-peak roles) is reasonably proportional to the actual number of off-peak players.  The only scenario left uncovered is if you have your heart set on a specific House and the imms for that House don't need someone with your playing times... in which case, there are a LOT of other Houses available.  Broaden your horizons

[Akaramu]

Mr. Anonymous, if you read my posts so far, you will have noticed that the only things I have a problem with is when

A) players claim the game is for Americans period and others dont even need to bring timezone related issues up.

B) European players who play steadily, and contribute enough over a large enough amount of time to be promoted cannot receive promotion because of timezone related OOC reasons.

Its Akaramu, kudos to uberjazz for being the only one I have ever seen spell it right  :wink:

(Please note I'm not complaining that my name is hard to spell).  

[Bestatte]

Warning: Derailment follows.

Just as an FYI - I did a search on TopMudsites, only checking a handful of available "countries of origin" out of maybe around 2 dozen. I found the following:

Germany: 14 games
Australia: 11 games
Denmark: 12 games
Finland: 11 games
Netherlands: 17 games
Austria: 6 games
Belgium: 1 game
Brazil: 5 games
United Kingdom: a whopping 64 games

Please don't use "there are no games from Europe" as justification to complain about ANYTHING based in the USA. I didn't check to see if any of these are RPIs, except Helliconia, which is based in Germany, a DIKU mud, with Roleplay mandatory. It happens to be at #8 on the top mud list, which is why I checked. The rest of them I did a general search by country.

Also I don't see anyone saying "Europeans don't belong playing in an American game." I see more "People who play off-times should realize that people who play prime-time are in the majority, and that staff members who play prime-time are also in the majority, and while it might be inconvenient to a minority of players, it isn't any kind of bias or prejudice - it's just how things happen when you play a game that is based in a country that exists within a certain range of time zones."

[Anonymous]

A) players claim the game is for Americans period and others dont even need to bring timezone related issues up.

Where has this been said? Let's see some quotes.

[Angela Christine]

EDIT small p.s.: You have no idea how frustrating it can be to really, really need a templar PC and there are 40 players on... but no PC templar, for weeks straight, until it is too late IC.

Don't be so sure about that.    A couple years ago it was common to have 40 players durring North American peak times, and somtimes you could indeed go weeks without seeing a particular type of PC.  I don't usually look for Templars, that's just crazy, but there were times when I couldn't find a PC merchant for House Kadius or House Salarr for weeks at a time in a major city.  There have been times when I've gone for months without seeing a PC Militia member, even durring peak times, and sometimes you want to report something shady without going to a Templar.  My point?  This isn't just an off-peak problem.


I think to function in a location a merchant house needs at least one merchant or agent (not necessarily a family member).  It doesn't matter if there are 5 merchants/agents in Tuluk, if there are none in Allanak then the clan doesn't exist in Allanak at the PC level.  Each Noble House also needs at least one Noble.  

For both merchant and noble houses, I think 2-3 merchants/agents/nobles is ideal.  That lets you spread them around the timezones a little, and provides a backup if a prominent member of the House has a sudden affliction of RL and can't play much for a while.  Just 1 is chancy, one person can't play _all_ the time, and if that 1 dies or stops playing the House can be temporarily adrift.  4 or more is too many, you start running out of "duties" for them all, and people resent House X for being a PC hog.  What does that mean?

Suppose House Jal has 1 or 0 nobles, and advertises for 1, with a "must be available peak times" tag.  Once that *required* position is filled and the new Jal is settled in, House Jal will have 1 or 2 Nobles.  House Jal is now fully populated, but it isn't over-populated.  If you have a really super-keen idea for a Jal noble, you don't HAVE to wait for the existing Jal noble(s) to die, or wait until the house advertises for non-peak players.  You can send in that app right now.  If it were accepted, house Jal would have 2-3 nobles, which is fine.  With 2-3 Jal nobles it really won't matter if one of them is rarely availble durring peak hours.  If you really, really want to play a certain kind of role, you don't have to wait for a position to be advertised, you make up your own position and make it so fantastic that the House Imms can't possibly refuse you.

Is there really a shortage of app-only positions?  It often seems  like the problem is more a shortage of players willing to play in these fairly restrictive and OOCly demanding roles, rather than too many players wanting to play them.  Merchant and Noble PCs take on a lot of OOC critisism and hassle (almost as much as the Imms themselves) and I'm amazed when anyone puts up for it long enough to play those kinds of roles for a RL year or more.  


AC

[flurry]

Not to be contrary, Akaramu, but just as a point of information:

The MUD I used to play at primarily, before I got into Armageddon, is hosted in Sweden.  Was created by a Swedish guy, most of the immortals are European.   Most of the players are also European.    It's in English, so there are a large number of American and Canadian players (it might be something like 1/3 North Americans).   I'm American and it was another American that introduced me to the game.   But having played there, I can understand how it is when most of your clanmates have different playtimes than you.  I mostly played in a clan with Swedish players and maybe one or two other Americans.   (If you really want to know the name of the game, feel free to PM me.  I will tell you it is definitely inferior to Armageddon, and also the roleplay there is mostly pretty poor and isn't enforced at all.)

Anyway just pointing out that there are such things, even if they might pale in comparison to Armageddon.

[Tmp]

Warning: Derailment follows.

Bravo, nice derailment, since it has no bearing whatsoever on the discussion at hand, especially when it is such commonly agreed knowledge that there are no equivalents to ArmageddonMUD in terms of RP experience.

Misintepret someone's statement as false, grab some facts to backup the fact that the misintepretated statement is false; instant discreditation of the poster's post? Why else would you bother derailing?

That said, the game is based in the United States of America. Suck it up, find Imms that share the same timezone so you can work with them, and don't bring up the issue again because it's just whining, since that's the only solution to the problem, nobody can suggest anything to make it better and no amount of discussion will change.

[Adhira]

There are other muds out there that are not American, I know, I played one for years, there is however no substitute for Armageddon  :twisted:

I'd just like to add to what Ammit has mentioned, I am quite happy to receive applicants to my clans from any time zones.  (Read staff announcements, Tenneshi's sought!).

Each staff member has their own set of criteria and limitations for roles within their clans, some of which may include hours of play.  I don't think it is intended to single out any group of players and restrict them from full participation in the MUD.

As others have mentioned, it is up to the players to also work to see these off-peak roles in game and successful.  I should mention I have seen some wonderful European-time leaders and hope to see many more.  For those of you who don't play standard US times, believe me, there are still plenty of opportunities.

I know the frustration of being an off-peak player, and I also know how unhelpful it is to hear 'recruit more players'.  It's purely a numbers game, perhaps another challenge is for us off-peakers to come up with ways to get our hours humming.

*please note these are solely my own views*

[Akaramu]

I said - none I know of that are worth playing.

Exactly that.

None of the mentioned european games are worth playing to me, or anyone I know. In my entire 25 years of life I have not encountered a single european online game I considered worth my time. Same goes for all of my friends.

And I was complaining about a few RARE special situations, most of which I have not ever seen happen, I said I was hoping they would not.

I did NOT complain about the current situation, aside from the RARE special cases I mentioned, (most of which didnt even happen so far) I am VERY satisfied with the current situation.

Please dont twist words in my mouth.