Short Skirts in Allanak: Elegant or Inappropriate?

[Ghardoan]

Greetings, everyone. Today, I wanted to broach the subject of clothing styles in Allanak. More specifically, what is considered appropriate and what is not by the majority of the populace. Consider the following excerpt, taken from the clothing documentation from the website:

"Hemlines are generally shorter in the northlands, where an above the knee skirt is considered acceptable, but would mark a woman as being of decidedly ill repute in the south."

So what does this mean for us? Is this simply an out-of-date piece of information that no-one really cares about, or is it time to once again to contemplate setting aside our western ways of thinking and begin to change the way our characters, both man and woman, respond to certain manners of attire? Should Allanak be more conservative than it currently is?

Personally, I think we could use a little shift in paradigm, but that's just me. In the end, it is up to each individual player to form their own opinions and decide on whether or not to use the information I present to you now. All I ask is that you give it some thought.

On a side note, I would love to get an official, joint staff opinion on split skirts, tight dresses, and low-cut blouses as well. I'm currently assuming that they would be regarded with the same disdain as short hemlines on skirts and dresses, but I'd like to know the definitive verdict on that.

Oh, and zombies rule!

Ghardoan

[Gem]

To deter those of you who might say that fashion changed over the years, I want to point out that although fashion does change, it does not change the style of dresswear overnight.  It takes time; people need time to change how they think about the clothes and their images.  

To use the Medieval europe as an example:  Their style of dresswear remained same for almost two hundred years, with very minor changes.  Women wore long dresses, exposed as little skin as possible, and men had the same mindset too.  Imagine what it would be like if someone suddenly showed up, during those times, wearing a tank top and a miniskirt!
Scandalous!

And on the concept that the southern culture's clothes are based on Far-Eastern cultures.  It should be noted that their style didn't change for almost a thousand year - not til very recently, and even today, people are still resisting the change.  People would add things; they add laces, buttons, embroidery or change the fabric, but they didn't change from wearing loose, billowy clothes to skin-tight during that period.

We need to refrain from letting our western culture bleed into Arm.  Tight, revealing clothes - especially in the south - would be almost unheard of, especially in the upper-level commoners and nobles.  Who would want to be thought as a prostitute??

Nobles and upper-class commoners have been brainwashed and taught to think of their own status, their own images.  The mentality is so ingrained that they would never think of damaging it...Some lower-class people might have similar mentality; these women wouldn't want to be thought of as prostitutes.

[Angela Christine]

I'd like to see more difference in clothing styles being played out.  Blackwing are supposed to have the sexiest cloathing, and there is some sexy stuff available at the desert elf outpost, but most elves end up in unsexy armor just like the rest of us.  Of course none of the desert elf PCs are Blackwing, so maybe their tribes think Blackwing dress like a bunch of sluts and all goodhearted people cover themselves head to toe in leather and sandcloth.  

I think if clothing styles are supposed to be longer in Allanak, then the Kadian shops would reflect this since they are high fashion.  I have vague recolections of shortish skirts in those shops, but they may have been trade-ins that someone got off a dead 'rinth whore.  

Angela Christine

[Chenille]

I'm going to agree here on two points:

1) Fashion wouldn't change much at all, because changes in fashion really didn't occur quickly until the advent of mass communication. Before, if someone decided to alter a style, how would anyone else find out? There were no designers' meetings.

2) Fashion follows function. Think about what it must be like for someone in a short skirt to get caught in a sandstorm. It's hell on the pantyhose, I'm sure.  :wink:

[Ghardoan]

"I think if clothing styles are supposed to be longer in Allanak, then the Kadian shops would reflect this since they are high fashion. I have vague recolections of shortish skirts in those shops, but they may have been trade-ins that someone got off a dead 'rinth whore."

This is a good point, and is partially why I mentioned the possibility of the excerpt I posted from the clothing documentation as being out-of-date. Yet again, I would love to see some input from the staff in this regard.

Ghardoan

[creeper386]

Maybe they don't like showing leg but chest or other things are just fine huh? Maybe they DO wear long length dresses but a semi-transparent silk is all the rave...


I don't know nothing, but it'd be funny seeing a dwarf running around in one of the transparent gowns... HAHAHA. I'm talking about a guy dwarf.


Creeper wonders who was asking about them maybe having hair in other places but noone looking...

[crymerci]

I think if clothing styles are supposed to be longer in Allanak, then the Kadian shops would reflect this since they are high fashion.  I have vague recolections of shortish skirts in those shops, but they may have been trade-ins that someone got off a dead 'rinth whore.  

Angela Christine

Well, there's nothing that says you can't be a woman of ill-repute and dress well.  :wink:

[Bestatte]

Just a quick comment on the reference to split skirts:

A split skirt is NOT a SLIT skirt. It is similar to enormously wide-legged pants, often worn in medieval times by women who preferred to ride horses astride rather than side-saddle.

Split skirts cover everything from waist down to ankle, unless otherwise noted.

[Ghardoan]

A split skirt is NOT a SLIT skirt. It is similar to enormously wide-legged pants, often worn in medieval times by women who preferred to ride horses astride rather than side-saddle.

Thank you for the amendment, Bestatte. You're absolutely right. How am I supposed to know anything about skirts?

Ghardoan whistles innocently.

I agree with AC on Kadius, I've been in Kadius once or twice (Or... three times) and I know that the Imms kept up on the "fashion" Or at least the Kadius Imm did.

[aeshyw]

Fashion can be an odd thing.  Cultures that would consider showing an ankle scandalous have sometimes embraced cleavage that would make us blush today.  Ankle to chin fashions have also at times been almost transparent, or any other combination of oddly demure/shocking lengths and fabrics.

There is also the issue of what people would wear..where.  While a Lady might insist on demure clothing in public..in the confines of her own Estate she might feel perfectly at home in side-slitted, form-fitting silks that would make a Muarki blush.  Also, the loyalties of the lady in question would matter.  A Tor lady, for instance, might feel more comfortable in militaristic clothing, while a Oashi or Borsail might enjoy following more shocking trends.

[creeper386]

And a Fale might run around buck naked just to entertain the people on a whole...

A noble, naked in a sandstorm..

HAHAHA


Creeper

Hey, I've seen it

[Ghardoan]

Fashion can be an odd thing. Cultures that would consider showing an ankle scandalous have sometimes embraced cleavage that would make us blush today. Ankle to chin fashions have also at times been almost transparent, or any other combination of oddly demure/shocking lengths and fabrics.

Very true. And I want to know exactly what would be considered acceptable in Allanaki culture. This may seem odd, but I actually enjoy placing myself in a world of strict boundaries, where everything is defined in meticulous detail, and little is left to the imagination. For me, the true enjoyment of playing the game is derived from living in a false reality as a false individual, and convincing my mind that this artificially fabricated world is indeed real. The more I have to go on, the easier that is.

So while something as petty as this topic may not even be deserving of more than a moment of thought to most, uncertainty will haunt me every time one of my characters sees a woman wearing a short skirt until I know what "the truth" is. Or if there isn't one, at least a common opinion.

I started this topic because I wanted to encourage people to think about it, but also to gain some clarity for myself. I know this post really isn't constructive in the least, but I am fostering the hope that someone will be able to appease my craving for useless knowledge. Or maybe I just need help. You know, the professional kind.

That said, I would like to take a moment to add that skeletons are cool too, provided they're animated or something, and not just sitting there being boring. So please, sponsor an undead friend in need. Call 1-800-4-UNDEAD today! We're counting on you.

Ghardoan

Disclaimer: If 1-800-4-UNDEAD actually turns up to be some real sex hot line for necrophiliacs or something, I claim no responsibility for the stupidity of those who fail to realize that the above was a joke and actually call the mentioned number, nor do I claim any responsiblity for the severe psychological damage one may suffer as a result. I will not reimburse you for any outrageous fees that may be incurred by 1-800-4-UNDEAD for such a call.

[Carnage]

The documents stated somewhere that fashion in Allanak was usually dictated by the nobles, and the nobles made fashion as nonsensical as possible. It was usually supposed to be something to show wealth. Sleeves too long for the noble were supposed to be fashionable, because it said the noble had servants do things.

Following this train of logic, then, a long skirt would be fashionable for the noble. It would show that the noble needed to be carried. As expected, commoners would probably follow this and wear long skirts, although not as long as a noble's. I think that was an example, too.

So to sum it all up, long skirts are in fashion, and short skirts aren't.

[Sanvean]

Where are you seeing short skirts being sold?

[Gem]

To answer Sanvean:  I believe the Kadius sells a knee-length skirt.
That's all I remember.  

However, our point was, although most of the kadian skirts cover most of the legs - meeting the norms, many items are becoming very form-fitting and tight, leaving very little to imagination.
Following the rule of being conservative, I know of at least one clothmaking item that, I think, wouldn't fit with the acceptable standards in South, as well as a number of items being sold by Kadian.

I suppose what Ghardoan and I was asking is:  What -is- acceptable?  Is it acceptable for the high-fashion folks to be exposing as much skin as possible, as long as their legs were covered?  

Low necks, sleeveless, form-fitting...If you extrapolate from the statement in the doc that says anything shorter than midcalves is unacceptable, it's easy to come to the conclusion that the southerners should be more conservative in style of wear.

If the staff decides that anything goes, as long as the fashion adhere to the rule that the hems of the skirts aren't shorter than mid-calf, I would encourage you (the staff) to update the documents.  
However, if you take the view that southerners should be conservative, then again, I would encourage you to expand on the document as well,  perhaps devote a few extra lines detailing what is and isn't acceptable.
-G

[aeshyw]

I know that there are a few very scandalous Muark outfits, including a skirt with very short cloth and the rest as fringe.  That said, they are hard to get in the city.  Also, most such clothing in Allanak would either be worn by an actual Muarki performer or a female in the privacy of her own home.

[SwanSwanHummingbird]

I think knee-length skirts should be considered acceptable in Allanak.  It would seem noticably short to people, but I don't think that it violates any social conventions.  In real life (in America), knee-length skirts aren't even considered short, but more of a mid-length (right?).  If it goes down to your knees, that means most of your legs are being covered--only your calves and ankles show.  Miniskirts are much shorter than that, and would only be worn by prostitutes in Allanak, I think.  So, a knee-length skirt in Allanak would be the equivalent of a miniskirt in real life--short, but still mostly acceptable.

That being said, I think it would be nice to see people becoming more intolerant about clothing (esp. womens) and just in general.  I have a hard time with this myself, I think everyone wants to be the one exception.  We need to continue to develop cultures for the various areas in Armageddon (Allanak, Tuluk, etc.), and continue to enforce the culture that we do have in place already.  It's difficult to do, because these cultures are most certainly -not- our own, but Armageddon will be that much deeper and richer for it.

[tortall]

I personally don't understand any kind of short skirt in Nak. There's almost always a sand storm. And any female wanting to wear a short skirt wouldn't want her legs all sand scarred and worn. Sure, there's knee high boots, but they just arn't the same.



-Tortall, who currently has red hair.

[Angela Christine]

I personally don't understand any kind of short skirt in Nak. There's almost always a sand storm. And any female wanting to wear a short skirt wouldn't want her legs all sand scarred and worn.

Aw, come on.  Short skirts keep you from having to shave your legs, the hair gets sandblasted off for that oh-so-attractive dwarf chick look.

Angela Christine

[John]

I'm suprised that rich people don't wear short loose skirts and loose shirts that reveal a lot. IMO that makes sense, because they're rich so they don't have to go outside often and in the hot weather of Zalanthas you wouldn't want to cover yourself in layers and layers of clothing. So I think just on the weather factor alone it'd make sense for commoners to wear clothes that cover their body and richer people to only keep a heavy cloak for when they go outside.

All just IMO. I'm now going to watch out for people who wear revealing clothes and react ICly of course.

Something I noticed about clothing... I can't really discern color easily. Now... if it's bone or obsidian, I get what color it is. Things like duskhorn, leather and wood are a little tougher, then with cloths, it's impossible. So for some of those, indiscernable things... I would like to see the color added. Like... a grey v-neck vest instead of a cotton v-neck vest. I don't know how common it is to not have a color listed on items like that, but if there isn't one, it should be!

[Vositus]

I'd like to see more difference in clothing styles being played out.  Blackwing are supposed to have the sexiest cloathing, and there is some sexy stuff available at the desert elf outpost, but most elves end up in unsexy armor just like the rest of us.  Of course none of the desert elf PCs are Blackwing, so maybe their tribes think Blackwing dress like a bunch of sluts and all goodhearted people cover themselves head to toe in leather and sandcloth.  

I think if clothing styles are supposed to be longer in Allanak, then the Kadian shops would reflect this since they are high fashion.  I have vague recolections of shortish skirts in those shops, but they may have been trade-ins that someone got off a dead 'rinth whore.

Angela Christine

Im just wondering... Are elves supposed to be sexy or attractive? All the elves Ive seen have always been ugly or shady...

[Angela Christine]

That depends on your definition of sexy.  Do you find tall, lean chicks with strong cheakbones and aquiline features sexy?  If these women lived in our world they would all be runway models and RuPaul types.  But they don't live in our world, they live in deserts and alleys, so they don't have access to our advanced skin care products.  And in a world where food and water are scarce, being thin probably isn't considered as attractive as it is in the parts of our world where you can buy donughts and ice cream treats on every corner.  Then again, something keeps the boys going back to those elven whores, right?  Half-elves are common enough that some humans and elves are finding eachother attractive, at least for the skank factor.

Angela Christine

[Anonymous]

Hey, maybe some of us find 'shady' folk attractive.

Yaknow, the whole 'bad boy/bad girl' attraction factor.  

[Callisto]

Not sure how all of this got started - do you have any idea how difficult it is to get anything shorter then a knee-length skirt in Allanak? The last time I had a character who didn't dress like a 'butch', it took me almost four real-life weeks to get the garment special ordered.

I don't think we'll ever see a problem with short skirts in Allanak, since they are just so difficult to find. On the topic of Allanaki 'dress code', I thought I would mention it gets a little strange when every non-combative commoner is dressed in the finest of silks. That, in my opinion, is far more strange then a noble looking to wear an ass-hugging short skirt.

A while ago someone commented to my character with the basic statement of 'why don't you wear silk, are you poor?' like it was strange for a commoner on the upper crust not to be wearing a pile of silk and gaudy jewelry all the time. The commenting chracter had a 'rinthi accent, no less.

Is it just me, or does it seem to be entirely too easy for any commoner to dress as well, if not better, then most nobles? I'm sure everyone will hate the idea, but maybe the price of silks could be raised? Its just a very odd situation when ex-rinthers are suggesting you need a hand out because you aren't wearing silks and sapphires.

Just a thought.

[creeper386]

I hardly think the prices of ANYTHING should be raised, if I start a character that is supposed to be dressed halfway decent(Not in rags or armour but not in silks or anything either) It's already really freaking expensive.

I think all you all must cheat or something, saying everything is underpriced when from my view point, the world is a VERY poor place, I don't see how things may from fairly common materials like a bit of leather and some bone, would cost several thousand sid.

I think the prices already are too overflated for the world, and don't see how you people get so much money! I can't find any! And thats how it should be.

Creeper

[John]

I agree with Creeper. I myself dress my character the way he should be. I often read the information about clothing when I go shopping for my character and buy according to his status in life. The following is all just my opinion.

Cambric: Worn by city slickers who aren't very high in life. Typically apprentices, or lowly shopkeepers.
Canvas: Rarely worn as clothing, but when it is, it is by those of very low status, typically slaves who aren't going to be in a noble's prescence often, but need something a bit better then just rags.
Cotton: Typically worn by city slickers who are just your ordinary every day people, such as shop keepers and crafters.
Damask: Worn by nobles and those that work for nobles. It can be made out of silk, linen and cotten so therefore Nobles would wear it in it's silk form, upper servants would wear it in it's linen form (linen is rare) and lower servants would wear it in it's cotton form.
Escru wool: Worn by people who are often outside but generally live near a city. Typically worn by richer farmers as it provides protection from sand.
Hemp: Worn by crafters of mediocre status. It would be worn by physicians that aren't in a House or slaves of lower status and not often in the prescence of a noble. ONLY worn in the Northlands though.
Linen: Worn by Upper servants as it is generally originates from the Tan Muark.
Sandcloth: Worn by common hunters and those that have to make their living outside of the city.
leatherwear: Worn by hunters who belong to a house or a successful and guards.
Silk: Worn by Nobles and very rich people only. It would rarely be found among servants, except those of very high status.

In Allanak Nobles dictate the styles often wearing outrageous things. I imagine that the commoners would often wear clothes that are very similar to what nobles wear, however not as outrageous and of lesser material. The reason for this would be because they want to mimic their betters as much as possible (like Cairhienen from the Wheel of Time series).

One time I was working for a noble, and he demanded I wear silk, and he had only just hired me. Now this is perfectly acceptable, as I reflect upon him, however I'd like to think that being a servant, especially a newly hired one, he wouldn't want to pay money for silk and would want me to wear similar clothing to him however made from lesser material.

That's just my 2 'sid.

[Socko]

It might be safe to assume that if you're able to afford it, you've got the social standing and status to wear it.

Of course, the social standing might not be a constant, since you could've just robbed someone blind, or found the money in a sack in some alleyway, or pried a diamond from some freshly assasinated merchant's corpse, ect.. and on top of that, you could be a rinthi that did any of the above.

It still -might- be safe to say, though, that if you can afford it without giving away your savings, you can wear it if you want.

The main problem, then, is that people make too much money.. which is true in the right places.

Unless there's some sort of sumptuary/luxury law.. and there already is some form of that within some circles in Allanak, I don't think that there's much of a problem.

[SwanSwanHummingbird]

I don't think that prices should be raised, but that the money you get from crafting should be greatly reduced on some items.  Really, the economics of all crafting items should be overhauled, imo.  Often, the raw material is worth more than the crafted item, or you can make 30 times profit from a simple crafted item in other cases.  Both extremes should be eliminated to make everything make sense.  No more buying materials for 7 sid, and selling the finished product for 70.  Or, buying materials for 50 and selling the finished product for 30.

[Eclipse]

I don't know if this was posted already but here's a quote from the documentation:

Hemlines are generally shorter in the northlands, where an above the knee skirt is considered acceptable, but would mark a woman as being of decidedly ill repute in the south.

From http://www.armageddon.org/general/clothing.html

[Sanvean]

Really, the economics of all crafting items should be overhauled, imo. Often, the raw material is worth more than the crafted item, or you can make 30 times profit from a simple crafted item in other cases. Both extremes should be eliminated to make everything make sense. No more buying materials for 7 sid, and selling the finished product for 70. Or, buying materials for 50 and selling the finished product for 30.

Naephet's in the process of doing this, but it's a pretty huge undertaking.

[Deathtakeusall]

Short skirts are great
but i think we should introduce thongs to allanak

Thong underwear you mean, thongs already exists everywhere in Allanak because Thongs are simply small strips of material. And yes, there is Thong underwear, good luck finding it though

[Impska]

I'm going to take up the original question and add to it.

If hemlines are generally long in Allanak, are we assuming that the style is more modest? If so, would most Nakkis turn their nose up at doing business with a Kadian agent who was dressed in a suit of skin-tight leather, with holes going up the legs, to show off the most skin possible, and her boobs hanging out? After all, if a short hemline marks you as of ill-repute, then that would basically make it look like you were sitting down to talk business with a prostitute.

And since I've used a Kadian as my example, would one want to do business with a Kadian who looked the very opposite of fashionable? I know that in this case, it's a bit difficult, at any time, there may be only one PC merchant in a house, and you're stuck with them, even if they've got a tail and whiskers. It's just something I wanted to bring up so that said agent/merchant could roleplay appropriately.

[A wandering peasant]

I've noticed that many 'well to do' female characters end up dressing like wanton sluts, but that's their choice I suppose.  Would it affect my business dealings with them?  To be honest, yes.  Dealing with a woman dressed like a two 'sid 'rinth whore (albiet perhaps a bit cleaner) will degrade the worth of what that person is saying and doing.

This is still their choice - dress like a slut, act like a slut, you are slut, doesn't matter what you call yourself.  Deal accordingly.

There are plenty of elengant outfits in the game and feminine clothing to avoid dressing like a provocative alley worker.  Therefore, you can only believe that they are purposefully flaunting their sexuality, perhaps even offering it to be sold.  And no, this does not mean that _I_ believe that a woman dressing in a mini skirt "deserves" to be leered at and the like - but my character probably would - since outfits denote profession and class in the world.

[Anonymous]

Well to-do merchant types should really be dressing for the occasion.

While the average commoner might not have access to multiple outfits, a Kadian very well might should, and he or she should, IMHO, dress in a way that fits business when necessary or be prepared to face whatever IC results.

That being said, I'm kinda reticent to rely on a statement written in a doc several IC decades ago.

4 or so decades ago being a professed homosexual was just a bit above pedophile in the order of social deviancy.

Today its accepted.

Just a decade ago you didn't hear ass on TV.  Now they show them and say shit.

Just a decade ago.... You get the idea.

So, who's to say that fashion hasn't shifted?  Maybe wearing leather pants tight enough to display the armadillo in your trousers has become socially accepted.  Maybe nipping out while talking to a noble gave a merchant a decided edge when trying to make a sale so because of the pressures of the market place, every breast in Allanak is on display.

Or maybe its gone the other way.  Maybe leering and filthy elves have just gotten to be too much.  Maybe there's roving gangs of mini-membered-men are running around beating down all those bulge-sporting perverts that make their wives back at the shanty town blush.

Well, anyways...my point is that fashion probably shouldn't be enforced in a document.

Most of the time what's in is what's new.  Works that way in the game and in real life, I've found.

[SwanSwanHummingbird]

Fashion changes quickly in the real world, that's true...but in a world where technology changes only slowly, if at all, fashions and customs would change slowly as well.  Basically, modern society changes at an incredible pace, so it shouldn't be used as a guideline.  I think the general fashions of each region can be written down in a document, since it's likely they wouldn't change much at all over the years.  Especially vague things like "Allanak is conservative regarding women's clothing."

[Anonymous]

Fashion changes quickly in the real world, that's true...but in a world where technology changes only slowly, if at all, fashions and customs would change slowly as well.  Basically, modern society changes at an incredible pace, so it shouldn't be used as a guideline.  I think the general fashions of each region can be written down in a document, since it's likely they wouldn't change much at all over the years.  Especially vague things like "Allanak is conservative regarding women's clothing."

Its a good point, and I won't claim to be able to know one way or the other.

Perhaps you are right.  Hmm.  I would imagine that at least two generations have passed since that document was drawn up, though, still, nowhere near enough time for that significant of a change in society to take place if Zalanthan society is like medeival times in that respect.

Thanks.

[Angela Christine]

You don't need a document to control fashion, that is what NPC shops, and to a lesser extent NPCs themselves, are for.  If Kadius is selling something as part of their regular inventory, you can assume it is something they think plenty of classy people would want.  (Although it could be something they want to dress their mistressess in in private, not public).  So ideally the imm in charge of rotating the stock in the shops keeps local standards in mind.  The clothing availible in the elven outpost is very different from that available in Allanak, which I hope reflects the differences in fashion standards.

You can special order clothing, buy clothing from PC tailors, or have clothing imported from another city, and you may get something that will raise eyebrows.  Clothing bought from shops in for which you are the target market should be appropriate for your place in society.  There is usually some difference in fashion between the elite and the commoners, a noble lady might show more skin than the average commoner.

AC

[Dazed and Confused]

Do women actually need to wear skirts at all?

What is wrong with "au naturale"?

[Nineveh]

Being blasted with sand whipping around at full strength is what's wrong with walking around au natural.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Dwarves, elves, muls, and half-giants are four other things that are very wrong with au naturale.