Stick ' em up!

[Spud]

Ok, imagine this. Its the middle of the night, there's no one around you. Then all of a sudden you feel someone blade at your throat. They say to you,"Give me your pack, or your life." You think, Hahahaha, I'm can't be killed.
So this is my question why can't we come up behind someone and slit there throat. And if we could I know people would overuse it. So, what if it was a skill mix of like sneaking and slashing weapons. And you would only be able to do it succesfully after you've been playing for a while. If not then it would say something like, You trip over yourself while approaching your target.
So, what do you think? :?:

[Xygax]

I think it's called "backstab."  

For more slowly developing scenes, there's another one:  "subdue".

-- X

[Geekfreak]

-dubdue elf
-hit elf

It's just that easy!

-GF

[Geekfreak]

lol, dubdue, woops

[Bestatte]

And Subdue, which is a skill that will hold your target without actually attacking them. However it is also subject to the crim-flag in most situations within the city. Holding someone against their will and all that.

Only twinks will ignore roleplay. If you emote putting a knife to my throat, then I will emote struggling or some other reaction. I might snicker and yell for the guards if I'm feeling confident - and let you try your worst before the soldiers nab ya after I scream.

If I just walk away, then I'm being a twink. And I deserve OOC reprimands, or possibly even karma loss if it's severe enough. There need be no IC changes, I don't think, to counter OOC bad behavior.

[Quirk]

The problem is that emoting putting a knife to someone's throat is something of a power-emote.

Suppose (unbeknownst to you) the target is actually an old and skillful veteran from foreign parts, capable of demolishing you bare-handed. You're unlikely to get the jump on this wary killer, and emoting having done so is somewhat arrogant.

I'd prefer a more generic menacing-with-weapons emote unless you and your adversary have crossed blades often and recently enough before that you can be somewhat certain that grabbing them and putting your knife to their throat would succeed.

Of course, their response to that may be non-ideal. Here's a suggestion made a while ago that I think has a lot of validity:

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6422

Quirk

[jhunter]

I agree with Quirk, emoting putting a blade to someone's throat is sort of a power emote. You don't know whether they are a war vet or not. It's possible they're very skilled and could snap your wrists before you could get a blade to their throat, you just don't know.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Of course, your victim doesn't know if you are so skilled that whatever they learned in the war doesn't hold a candle to you.

I think there should be the ability to grab somebody and put a knife up to their throat.  Maybe in some combination of backstab and subdue.

[Ghost]

If you are -successfully- hidden, then I think you can put a knife to someone's throat.  They dont notice you there, they dont notice the knife under your cloak, then they dont see you as a threat.  Once you achieve that, you can put a knife to throat, or back before they can hold up their guard.

Subdue + backstab?  But only a certain combination of guild+subguild has both of them.  It will need to be implemented too, such that an mugger does not always have the same professions.

[Meatwad]

Unless the mugger actually intends to kill the victim, and kill the victim for sure, then there really isn't much need for subdue, threaten, or backstab.  A person could emote it all.  jumping out, weapon waving.  Dialog asking for the money or silk cloak or what have you.  And then, the mugger could, if the situation allowed it to be acceptable, emote stabbing the person near the heart.  Then, the mugger could -think- they killed him, while letting the other PC live and have some fun playing out the wound, the talking about the mugger, the search for him if that's what happens et cetera.  And of course, if you jump out, waving your weapon and they simply walk off you can always wish, mail the mud, or simply use the way to call them a detremint to role players everywhere ^_^

[Dakkon Black]

I think there was a thread with this idea before.

>Threaten elf

You move in and hold your weapon against the tall elf. (sucess)

Roleplay for a bit

>hit elf

Helpless to stop you you slash the tall elf very hard on the neck.

*after the first hit normal combat resumes*

OR

>Threaten elf

You try to hold your weapon to the tall elf but he notices at the last minute and turns away.

*Either play may start normal combat now with hit/kill*

I love this idea. So much rp possibility backed up by code to deter twinks

[Meatwad]

Quirk linked to the thread you just mentioned, Dakkon.  And like I said, instead of code to deter twinks, use immortal intervention.  There's usually some way around the code, and having code can't make them RP.

[Agent_137]

i like to make it fair. if some one power-emotes me, i'll power-emote them back. If you want to leave a effect on my character, use the code. that's what it's for. You wanna hold me in place? Subdue me, then threaten my life. Then i'll play along. Oh, and no bitching about the crim code. Last time i checked, threatening some one's life would be illegal...especially with a knife to their throat. If you fail the subdue and get flagged, pretend like it's me dodging out of the way, making a commotion, and then you getting caught red handed.

p.s.
New code supporting this better would be fantastic.

[Dakkon Black]

There is nothing I hate more then having to bother Imm's because I want to play a rinthi that threatens people in the night streets. It might not be the easiest to code for sure, just would be a beautifully nice thing to have.

[Meatwad]

Well dakkon I didn't suggest wishing every time you wanted to mug someone.  Only if they acted like a twink and completely ignored you.  And even then, a log attached to an email would probably be appreciated by the IMMs.  After all, they made this a role playing enforced game, and you'd be helping to keep the standards high.  And, without the good and with a good role player, the quality of the rp would improve as well.

[spawnloser]

This is a mud, not a mush.  Code should back things up.  Yes, RPing things should be good enough, but having code to back it up is better.

[Meatwad]

I would think not needing code because people play realistically would be better than needing code to stop people from playing poorly.  But of course, that leads me to wonder why then adding things like broken limbs to the combat system was met with such vehement disapproval.  After all, that would force people to play with that in mind.

[Jorlain]

I love the idea of having a skill that will allow you to subdue/whatever. Sure you can subdue them and "hit" them, but the problem with that is just that. You just hit them. You can't subdue someone and be holding any form of weapon, or shield for that matter.

Sure, it's hard to subdue someone with one arm, but effectively grabbing them and pressing a knife/dagger against their back, or across their throat would seem like a fairly good way of subduing someone. And if you should happen to fail... Well then I guess they jerked away or spun around fast enough. Or hell, maybe if you fail your weapon can get disarmed aswell, providing they have the prowess.

Sure, you can just stick to emoting everything, but it would be very nice to be able to actually mug someone with code backing you up.

It's almost 6AM, so excuse me for the rambling.

[Angela Christine]

The reason that muggings work in real life is because people are afraid.  A mugger with a knife can hold up two or three people, a few guys with box cutters can hijack a plane full of people.  If you can scare people and give them a way out, then they will often go along with you.

With or without code support, it is hard to scare people in a game.  While being tortured by templars, how many people wet themselves in fear and give up all their secrets, verses how many keep a stiff upper lip and die bravely?  

The best way to scare people in game is to out-number them, in a one-on-one confrontation many will take their chances.  In a several-on-one confrontation the victim knows you have a good chance of killing him before the crim code kicks in, the soldiers may get you later but that won't help him.  If you have a partner one of you can subdue the victim, while the other keeps a weapon ready to slit his throat if he tries anything funny. If you have a parter, or several partners, you can guard the exits making it hard for your victim to escape.  Blackmoon didn't become a menace to travelers everwhere by working in just ones and twos, learn by their example: if you want to be a successful thug you need to work with a group.  With a group you can intimidate people, surround them, and make them beg for mercy.  If just one raider or mugger walks up and says "your money or your life" many potential victims will keep on walking, because one man can not easily prevent you from escaping.  In open ground in the wilderness, even two men can easily be avoided.


I'm not sure a "mugging" skill would necessarily be appropriate for the sneaky guilds.  A mugging runs on fear and intimidation, not sneakiness, so a skill to facilitate mugging would work best for Warriors.  Warriors are brute force thugs, not skilled thieves.  If a pickpocket threatens you with physical violence it's like "so what" unless you happen to have no combat skills at all.  But when a warrior threatens physical violence, well, all non-warriors avoid a stand-up straightforward fight with a warrior when they can, because warriors are simply the best at straightforward fighting.


AC

[Trenidor]

wouldn't the only place someone would -want- to do something like this, -not- have crime code?

Realistically the only thing I could see this used for would be taking people hostage in the streets. (which isn't a bad idea  :twisted: )

If though, you weren't in one of those areas, you could simply be hidden, wait for someone to come along, and then type:

Subdue

emote quickly reaches around %victim throat with one hand, grabbing over ^victim mouth, and bringing another hand with ~knife held tightly in it.

If however you are not in one of those rooms, it's likely that the people around you will rat on you.


**Edit I forgot to add something***

You have code backing you up this way because you're hidden and they didn't notice you. Plus you have subdue on them meaning the code is definately against them. This IMO would -not- be powergaming. Heck you could even add in guard to make sure they don't run off.

[Quirk]

Before everyone jumps on the subdue bandwagon, remember (as has been discussed many times before) subdue is broken in the case of attacking someone who has weapons drawn. Armed people you would never be able to touch codewise with a bare-handed strike can fall prey to subdue easily, and abusing this is generally seen as bad RP. As people walking through lawless areas frequently have their weapons drawn, this is something that needs to be taken into account.

Quirk

[wizturbo]

If you are -successfully- hidden, then I think you can put a knife to someone's throat.  They dont notice you there, they dont notice the knife under your cloak, then they dont see you as a threat.  Once you achieve that, you can put a knife to throat, or back before they can hold up their guard.

Subdue + backstab?  But only a certain combination of guild+subguild has both of them.  It will need to be implemented too, such that an mugger does not always have the same professions.

Being hidden, and being able to sneak up on someone to get close enough to put a blade to their throat is an entirely different story.  I could personally hide from a special ops master assassin in a dark forest or something (at least if they weren't actively hunting me or something) but I'm HIGHLY doubting I could sneak up on one and threaten their life.  Subdue, and then backstab, seems like the most likely way to go about this.  It sucks, I know, because realistically killing someone isn't that hard.  However, Zalanthas isn't earth.  Life is much harder, survival much more difficult and demanding.  I'd say, killing someone in Zalanthas isn't as easy as in modern civilized society in the real world.  So...it balances out.

[sarahjc]

I would just like to touch on the power emote thing. I think it is fine for you to emote sneaking up behind someone and putting a knife to his or her throat, especially if you are hidden already. What the victim does in return is up to the victim.

I would go with something like:

The greasy, rotten-toothed man sneaks up behind you slowly, his feet making a slight shuffling noise as he slides a knife to your throat, his rotten breath at your ear..

Then the scene is up to you, you can choose to grab his hand and knock the knife away. (not sure if disarm would work with this)

You could tremble clutching the hand at your throat, unable to move the blade as it nicks your skin sputtering words like "Please don't hurt me".. or "Take whatever you want."

There are all sorts of playable scenes. The thing with power emotes is that they can be cool if both parties are willing to play out the scene and they are left open ended when it comes to the choice other party has in the scene. But you have to be willing to play it out realistically and trust the other player to do the same. It's a fine line and it can be tricky.. but what fun you could have.

In closeing I don't think you need to have it coded. I think emoting works just fine for those sorts of things.

[wizturbo]

I would just like to touch on the power emote thing. I think it is fine for you to emote sneaking up behind someone and putting a knife to his or her throat, especially if you are hidden already. What the victim does in return is up to the victim.

I would go with something like:

The greasy, rotten-toothed man sneaks up behind you slowly, his feet making a slight shuffling noise as he slides a knife to your throat, his rotten breath at your ear..

Then the scene is up to you, you can choose to grab his hand and knock the knife away. (not sure if disarm would work with this)

You could tremble clutching the hand at your throat, unable to move the blade as it nicks your skin sputtering words like "Please don't hurt me".. or "Take whatever you want."

There are all sorts of playable scenes. The thing with power emotes is that they can be cool if both parties are willing to play out the scene and they are left open ended when it comes to the choice other party has in the scene. But you have to be willing to play it out realistically and trust the other player to do the same. It's a fine line and it can be tricky.. but what fun you could have.

In closeing I don't think you need to have it coded. I think emoting works just fine for those sorts of things.

I agree with this.  If both players are good, and you leave things open-ended in your emotes things could work out nicely.  But this isn't a perfect world, and something makes me think a lot of PC's wouldn't react realistically.

Sometimes, its just hard to know HOW to react.  But the more detailed your open-ended emotes the better.  Sarahjc's example is excellent.  Some details are imbedded that would imply the person sneaking up on you isn't a total novice, but also isn't exactly a professional assassin either.  

If the emote was something like:  

You feel a slight jab against your throat as the black-clad figure slips behind you, the sound of his approach cleverly concealed by taking each step in sync with your own.

Pressing a sharp blade to your throat, the black-clad figure whispers in your ear, "Remove your coinpurse, and drop it to the ground, or you won't live another day...."

I think someone might realistically assume the man behind the knife is an expert.  I would just hope, that the person playing the expert, is actually an expert from lots of experience rather then a novice who is trying to power-emote their way into success

[sarahjc]

When dealing with roleplay.. All things are up for interpretation, and you are right wizturbo, not everyone will play out the scene in a realistic fashion. But it is at least worth a shot, because in the long run what is really lost if the person emotes kicking you in the nuts and scampering off? Not much except the potential cool scene and maybe a bit of your PC's pride. In truth you are not really not that much worse off then you were in the beginning. And most players, I would hope would be willing to have some fun with a scene like that.

[Marc]

On the power emote bit, a very simple fix to most emotes is adding the word 'try/tries'.

The mean guy tries to put a knife to your throat.

The mean guy tries to clamp a hand down over your mouth.

This leaves the victim with a say in the scene.

If you don't want to act the scene out or don't think your victims reaction was realistic to your skill, just use the coded solutions.   Subdue if you want to hold them, backstab if you want to go right for the kill.

Note:  Thats not to say you don't still rp using the skills, but you're now relying on Ginka to pick who succeeds, not the victim and aggressor.

[Cenghiz]

I insist, I insist again! I need code to back me up. I gave up playing sneaky chars for long because code doesn't back you up in a very blurry line. I liked this "threaten" idea. Let's just do this: (I know a bit of C and examined some MUD codes, so I know *sigh* it would be hard.)

A dark corridor [EW]
>think Hmm, here's suitable.
>emote slides to the shady area by the wall.
>hide
The fat merchant has arrived from the west.
>semote swiftly moves to ~fat, grasping ~dagger tightly. (Yey! I want semote too...)
>threaten fat
.....
*threaten could be a command based on backstab, which only delays the damage till you type "hit <victim>" if succesful. You may release like in "subdue". The victim can't move; "Impossible, your life's threatened.", may decide to "flee" but may fail initiating the combat and recieving  the backstab.*.....
>emote places ~dagger to %fat neck, nearly cutting his throat.
>say -hissing Your money or your life, fatty...
.....
So even a buff warrior's throat is vulnerable to attack. The reflexes of warrior would be taken into account, since we're using the "backstab" skill.

*sigh* But I guess that would be _hard_ to code.

Cenghiz, who wants anything that pleases him to see.

[WhiteRanger (logged out)]

I actually seen some roleplay done with the TOUCH command along these lines. And it works out pretty good, when you try to touch someone, it runs skill checks to see if you could come into contact with them. Something along the lines of this.

emote moves up behind ~bald pulling his blade from his belt and reaching up toward the back of %bald neck.

The slinky elf moves up behind the bald ugly man pulling his blade from his belt and reaching up the back of the bald ugly man's neck.

touch bald

You try to touch the bald man but he moves away.

(then the bald guy's turn)

emote turns around quickly at the sound of footsteps and swings a large fist at %elf face.

The bald ugly man turns around quickly at the sound of footsteps and swings a large fist at a slinky elf's face.

touch elf

You touch a slinky elf.

emote Slamming his fist into %elf face @ steps back quickly.

Slamming a fist into a slinky elf's face a bald ugly man steps back quickly.

(elfs turn)

emote falls to the ground dropping his blade as his eyes half roll back in his head from the blow.

A slinky elf falls to the ground dropping his blade as his eyes half roll back in his head.


Anyways, you get the picture...the touch command is perfect for handling role played situations that dont nescessarily have commands.

[Agent_137]

wtf is touch command? It's not even in the help files at all.

What does it work off of? What's it for?

[EvilRoeSlade]

The touch command no longer exists, since it was being used for purposes that it was never intended for.

[Anonymous]

The touch command no longer exists, since it was being used for purposes that it was never intended for.

There was inappropriate touching?

[EvilRoeSlade]

Apparently it was a command that only the staff was supposed to use, and it was never meant to be a pseudo brawl code.

[Anonymous]

Show me on this stuffed Baobob doll where they touched you.

[EvilRoeSlade]

*points out the antennae*

[WhiteRanger(logged out)]

Oops, had no idea that the touch command had been disabled....sorry guys, I guess you just have to argue this one out, that was all I had.