From city to city

[Cameron0202]

I know it probably is already said, yet I suck at finding things. I can make it from nak to tuluk in less then an IG hour so I suppose this is not Realistic. So I want to slow myself down, how long would it take to travel that distance relisticly?

[Trenidor]

I usually make it end up at least a day and a half (pushing your mount the whole way) and two days if your walking your mount. I'd then calculate in if you were walking on foot that it'd be around less than 3 days

[Anonymous]

Wow they are that close together?  I had thought that they were a few real life days apart, and you had to bring all sorts of supplies and camp out and stuff.  I guess I'll be traveling a bit more now.

[Agent_137]

going off what guest mentioned, would the average commoner know the distance? For what reasons would he want to risk the trip?

[Teleri]

The average commoner living in most centers of civilization would probably know roughly the time it takes to travel from one city to the other.  Traders, mercenaries, and even hunters would be travelling along the routes and they would see how many days it took to get from one place to the next.  Additionally, especially in the more metropolitan areas, scheduled caravans and shipments would be kept track of and their departure and arrival times would be noted.  Thus, most people would know the days it takes to get from one city to the next.

I would imagine that few commoners would really want to make the trip from Allanak to Tuluk, and especially vice verse.  Citizens of one city would find conditions even worse in the next, because their different culture and accent would set them apart.  Both citys' governments hate each other, and provoke their people into doing likewise.  Thus, prices would be set higher if a trader loyal to one city noticed he was selling goods to those of another, and the immigrants would be hounded by the other city's citizens.

Only if their lives were in severe danger in one city would a commoner make the journey to the other.  Maybe, if they broke a major law or pissed somebody very powerful off in the other city, they would emigrate.  Or, if they saw that they could otherwise gain quite a bit of money, power, ect...they would probably make the journey.  However, for most not affiliated with some inter-city organization, the risk would be not worth the rewards.

When Tuluk was starting to be a metropolitan area again, about 2 years ago or so, I noticed that immigration of Allanaki PCs to the city was a bit high.  Also, Tuluki immigrants to Allanak seemed to be more rampant throughout the time when Tuluk was still fallen.  It doesn't seem to be so much a problem now, but it did seem a bit off at the time.

[Pantoufle]

Interesting topic.

I think it's important to consider how condensed the Known World truly is.  I cannot believe there are remote tribes out there who don't know of Allanak or Tuluk, for example.  No one is that remote.  The resources are scarce and competed for; distances are all accessible within a day.  What's more, all demi-humans speak the same language for their race and all humans (regardless of region) speak the same language, nevermind a variation in accent.  These aren't different countries.

Furthermore, no matter how well roleplayed a journey from Allanak to Tuluk is, it still won't take you more than a day unless you're staggering.  That said, how can the Known World consist of anything larger than the size of .. I don't know .. the UK?  The concept of a many day journey could only exist if you are travelling in a large caravan, slowed by the weight of baggage, or perhaps if you were taking a very long, special route.

Naturally, some of this is realism sacrificed for playability, and I don't think it's fair to necessarily quote an exact distance (like, the North Road spans 100 miles from Tuluk to Allanak).  But I still think the original concept of "the known world" assumes a relatively small scrap of land.

But don't think me a know-it-all, I'm only stating my opinion.

[da mitey warrior]

The only way you can get from Allanak to Tuluk in one game hour is by some serious power-running.  If you adopted the approach of moving one room then looking in every direction then moving again, it would make for a much more realistic travel time.

[Delirium]

For a while, I actually liked riding erdlus, because it forced me to have a more realistic travel time, and nowadays I tend to rest my kank probably more often than it needs to be codewise.

I think that it should take at least two days to move between Allanak and Tuluk. Of course, gameplayability means sacrifices here and there, but when I have time to move slowly - i.e. I'm alone or with a small band of people that can move at my same pace - I will force the trip to take two days, and when I'm alone, depending on the route, sometimes three to five. You'd think that the slower pace would be more boring, but often, it's really not, especially if you're with other people - it allows for a more detailed travelling experience, and for more Bad Things (tm) to happen that can and usually do lead to good stories to tell when you finally get where you're going, and lots of remniscing later on with your buddies.

On the flip side, travelling with someone that pauses for five minutes and whips out a four-line emote every two or three rooms would probably end up driving me nuts.

Of course, riding straight through on your kank and barely pausing to look in either direction can be attributed to riding hard and pushing your kank at a lope desperado-style, but it makes for a fairly boring trip experience.. and I still have to wonder if it really should be humanly possibly to reach Tuluk from Allanak (and vice versa) in ONE game hour.. as hard as I've ridden in times past, I still never managed to make it between the cities in anything less than a gameday, and often, I'd be riding through the gates at night.

So... in my humble opinion, Allanak and Tuluk are a two-to-three day RIDE apart, but at breakneck 'omfgit'sanemergency' speeds, your character could probably make it in a full gameday.

[Ghost]

Make a "look in all direction" at each league.

Stop at least once, to rest your kank and yourself; go drink something and have a chat for an IC hour or so.

These two would make it realistic.  And if you go by these rules, it would take  more than an IC day.  

If you speed up, I dont think you are going to end up from one city to the other, since your kank will most likely be exhausted before you reach your destination.  
And if you are not using magick, or acting as foolishly as spam walking without "looking around" (since it might mean walking into your death) it will never take less than 4 IC hours, IMHO

EDIT: To add a couple of words

[ashjpd]

Also,
I would think your trip would take longer if you ran into a pack of gith or something, so you would have to take a longer route, or have to wait, or fight them down, whichever one you prefer, so it would also depend on the safety.

[Synth(NotLoggedIn)]

Yeah, it's all well and good to try to stretch out your trips from here to there, wherever it may be, but the first time a wandering nasty comes in unexpectedly and tears your little group to shreds will probably also be the last time you ever do it.

And the wandering NPCs are the least of your concerns.  I've known raider PC's who will follow your trail from the grasslands around Tuluk all the way to the Canyons of Waste, and then back again.  If you're lolligagging around, you're just -asking- to have an arrow put through your neck.

The fact of the matter is, the longer you spend outside of a law-enforced area, the greater your chances of being killed.  Long-lived characters just don't spend a lot of time travelling from here to there, unless they have an ace in the hole (magick, a wagon, or uber-skills, namely).

You can cry about it all you want, but NPCs and raiding PCs -don't- stop to sit around and shoot the breeze.  If you leave a city 30 minutes before them and they find your tracks, chances are good that if you spend 15 minutes sitting around talking or roleplaying or doing whatever, you're going to get whacked, or someone you're with is going to get whacked.

It's not pretty, I know.  And it's not the best of all possible situations...but these are the simple facts, folks.  If you want to live, you pretty much have to make haste, until they rearrange movement speeds for everything that's out there coming after you.  I'm not saying run your kank the entire way, and blindly going down the road without looking all directions is just -asking- to get whacked...even worse than lolligagging (make sure you look -behind- yourself, too!).  But wasting time on fluffy good RP, while commendable, I agree, is also suicidal.

[Stroker]

That's why you get an escort, to escort you .... this would also provide job opportunities for PCs, hunters, etc, who try to make it on their own. I find it rather bland, if you just quickly rush over the entire terrain without doing anything, just attempting to reach one destination. While easily done, it also takes away from the realism. Granted, with the weather in your favour, you can make the trip fairly easily (and believable), maybe even without resting. However, if winds blow, and your eyes swell with sand, and you just sweep across the stretch of the land between the two city-states with the speed of light, then ... well ...  I guess you can do it, it's up to the player. In fact, I've done this previously myself, so I am a sort of hypocrite, nonetheless, I don't approve of it. I do understand that preserving the life of a certain character is at times more important than stopping, unnecessarily, to make camp or toss out those glamorous emotes.

[UnderSeven]

'Realistic time'?  

I've played a game with 'travel time' where you are expected to rp the distance between places and I don't like it.

The difference between Tuluk and Allanak is the difference plain and simple.  Yes every room represents a league, but a real life day represents something like a week.  Travel is fast so is time passage.  

Add storms and agressive predators and other obsticales, travel can actually take a while.

I don't feel there is a question of slowing yourself down.  If you rush you're more likely to run into something you didn't want to.  No need to add onto that 'well it really takes X days to reach Y location, so you have to factor in travel lag.'  No, viritual travel lag is a pain and silly and if we made it a wide spread idea it could be abused.  Lets not make the same mistakes other games do.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

If the distance problem is ever fixed on Armageddon, I hope it is accomplished by either the simple process of lowering mount and PC move points in those said rooms more severely, or the more complicated process of adding more rooms in certian places, rather than implementing some monumental lag or other thing. Either of these options would allow for roleplay, combat, and these other important mechanisms to function as they do now, which is, despite the players' issues, nearly perfect.

[Bogre]

Wow they are that close together?  I had thought that they were a few real life days apart, and you had to bring all sorts of supplies and camp out and stuff.  I guess I'll be traveling a bit more now.

We really don't know how big our little slice of Zalanthas is. Perhaps there is a huge civilization on the other side of the Silt Sea, blocked off from us as we are from it. Perhaps it is rife with metal, plentiful in water, and everyone is a magicker. Who knows. We could be stuck on an island the size of Ireland or a huge continent. Who knows.

[Angela Christine]

The problem with saying that they known world really is that small, is that then it doesn't make sense for their to be such a huge difference in prices between the northernmost city (Tuluk) and the southernmost city (Red Storm).  

Go to the Salaar and Kurac shops in Tuluk, and log the "list".  Then run down to Red Storm  (you can make the trip in under half an hour if you stick to the roads and don't get in any fights, or if you have an NPC driven wagon) and check the "list" there.  You should find a few identical items, but the Red Storm version will be much more expensive.  You ever see a numut basket for sale in Red Storm?  I have, and the price is obscene, no one in their right mind would pay that for a basket, and certainly no one in a poor town like Red Storm.  I'm not dissing the price gougers in Red Storm, it is part of the harsh, brutal vibe they've got going down there that most goods are priced beyond what a common citizen could afford.

If the cost multiplyer isn't because of the great distance, what is it for?  There is some danger in the trip for a caravan, but most goods are not transported by slow caravans but instead by a single wagon moving like a bat out of hell.  Building that wagon was expensive, and maintaining it may be a little more expensive than maintaining a herd of pack-beasts, but a wagon is still probably cheaper than maintaining a real caravan with a full compliment of guards and outriders.  In an average week any wagon could easily make the trip from Tuluk to Red Storm and back, stoping at every village along the way, and most wagons could make the trip several times.

Before the Liberation the Rebels made the roads dangerous/expensive to travel, which was pretty inconvienent for everone included Tulukis.  However, two warring city-stats cause much less trouble on the trade routes than a rag-tag guerila band ever did.

So why is wood expensive in the south?  Why is spice and obsidian expensive in the north?  These goods aren't exotic if a truckload can be delivered every few hours.



That was one thing I liked about the old, messed-up time system.  While only a few hours of apparent time might pass durring a trip, an entire day or two of "age time" would go by.  In effect the trip took a day or two, a reasonable amount of time, but you only RPed through a few hours of that time, which made it easier for groups of PCs to organized trips.


Increasing the movement lag for wilderness squares might be realistic, but it would also be awful.  Playability would suffer.

Increasing the number of rooms between the cities could work, but that would basically mean re-mapping and re-writing the entire known world.  If the distance between Allanak and Tuluk grows, then the tablelands have to get bigger too.  And so do the salt flats, the red desert, the plains, the gypsy lands, etc.  Unless everything is made bigger the zone boarders won't line up anymore.  I don't think that is a plausible solution unless the MUD entirely closed to the public for a few weeks while everything was re-mapped, expanded, and tested the popular routes to make sure everything worked as expected.  More territory is good, it makes room for more animals, plants, ruins, hideouts, and other interesting terrain features, but I doubt it would ever happen.

Decreasing the stamina of mounts, or increasing the stamina cost of wilderness rooms including roads, holds some perverse appeal for me despite my love of exploring.  Resting a kank is a long, boring, nasty buisness.  But a kank being able to walk from one end of the world to the other without a rest (which kanks can do if you stick to the roads) is a little absurd.  


This would also make it more popular, out of necessity, for some Mercahnt Houses and others to hire magickers to speed the journey or at least make it more pleasant.  Several of the elementalist guild descriptions describe their usefullness for long journeys, but this goes to waste because no one ever goes on a long journey.  Nearly everyone is able to complete a trip before nightfall on the same day they set out.  The rare independant hunter or explorerer may stay out for several days at a time, but those sorts of people are unlikely to hire or invite a mage to come along in the current cultural climate.  I guess virtual mages help the virtual travellers, because virtual travellers are much slower and are often preyed upon by  virtual bandits.  :?


On the other hand you don't want to make travel too slow, or nothing can ever get done because it is hard to organize a group of PCs for anything longer than 3 or 4 hours.  I vaguely remember a MUD where it could take 12 hours of real time to get from one city to the other, but you didn't have to actually sit through it, you could join a caravan or board a boat or something, log out, and log back in 12 hours later when you were close to your target.  Ugh.  It might be more realistic, but I think it hurts playability.

Sooo . . . I don't know.


AC

[Gilvar]

The problem with saying that they known world really is that small, is that then it doesn't make sense for their to be such a huge difference in prices between the northernmost city (Tuluk) and the southernmost city (Red Storm).

Its not a matter of size its a matter of danger. The north and south could be right next to each other, but if there was a wall of fire and lighning between them, goods from those few yards away would be pricier in the other place.

Go to the Salaar and Kurac shops in Tuluk, and log the "list". Then run down to Red Storm (you can make the trip in under half an hour if you stick to the roads and don't get in any fights, or if you have an NPC driven wagon) and check the "list" there. You should find a few identical items, but the Red Storm version will be much more expensive. You ever see a numut basket for sale in Red Storm? I have, and the price is obscene, no one in their right mind would pay that for a basket, and certainly no one in a poor town like Red Storm. I'm not dissing the price gougers in Red Storm, it is part of the harsh, brutal vibe they've got going down there that most goods are priced beyond what a common citizen could afford

The problem is players playing characters that somehow know the way between all these places. A warrior who's description states nothing of worldly travel walked from Tuluk to Red Storm East to Red Storm. No clue how he knew the way. The world isn't full of super-travellers. And travelling is virtually alot dangerous then it is portrayed. There are many virtual raiders, but hardly any npc or pcs.

If the cost multiplyer isn't because of the great distance, what is it for? There is some danger in the trip for a caravan, but most goods are not transported by slow caravans but instead by a single wagon moving like a bat out of hell. Building that wagon was expensive, and maintaining it may be a little more expensive than maintaining a herd of pack-beasts, but a wagon is still probably cheaper than maintaining a real caravan with a full compliment of guards and outriders. In an average week any wagon could easily make the trip from Tuluk to Red Storm and back, stoping at every village along the way, and most wagons could make the trip several times.

Slow caravans would be dead in the water if the code could do it. As it is things can't really enter wagons to my knowledge, making them invulnerable. When realistically they'd be dead. A slow moving wagon would be a gith's wet-dream. Since most are not nearly guarded enough. One or two guards? pff.

So the main problem is the inaccurately portrayed danger of travel.

So why is wood expensive in the south? Why is spice and obsidian expensive in the north? These goods aren't exotic if a truckload can be delivered every few hours.

Wood will always be expensive in the south for the sole reason there are no trees. There is insatiable thirst for wood because of its many uses and it can actually look nice. Its hard to make bone look appealing and that is the only other equatable building material. Stone is bulky and wouldn't be comfortable for chairs, and isn't as flexible for building.

Increasing the movement lag for wilderness squares might be realistic, but it would also be awful. Playability would suffer.

Yes

Increasing the number of rooms between the cities could work, but that would basically mean re-mapping and re-writing the entire known world. If the distance between Allanak and Tuluk grows, then the tablelands have to get bigger too. And so do the salt flats, the red desert, the plains, the gypsy lands, etc. Unless everything is made bigger the zone boarders won't line up anymore. I don't think that is a plausible solution unless the MUD entirely closed to the public for a few weeks while everything was re-mapped, expanded, and tested the popular routes to make sure everything worked as expected. More territory is good, it makes room for more animals, plants, ruins, hideouts, and other interesting terrain features, but I doubt it would ever happen.

Never say never, the tablelands were completely re-wrote. If the staff seriously considers it they will likely clone it and just add on in a mirror-form, eventually copying them over. Its a nice solution but alot of work.

Decreasing the stamina of mounts, or increasing the stamina cost of wilderness rooms including roads, holds some perverse appeal for me despite my love of exploring. Resting a kank is a long, boring, nasty buisness. But a kank being able to walk from one end of the world to the other without a rest (which kanks can do if you stick to the roads) is a little absurd.

This would make sense if there were logically more places to rest. If a route is well used, but kanks get tired every 25 rooms or so, you'd think someone would've thought to set up a rest stop. More temporary puddles of water would be nice too. Zalanthan ecology may be different, but even scrub should require a few drops of water.

This would also make it more popular, out of necessity, for some Mercahnt Houses and others to hire magickers to speed the journey or at least make it more pleasant. Several of the elementalist guild descriptions describe their usefullness for long journeys, but this goes to waste because no one ever goes on a long journey. Nearly everyone is able to complete a trip before nightfall on the same day they set out. The rare independant hunter or explorerer may stay out for several days at a time, but those sorts of people are unlikely to hire or invite a mage to come along in the current cultural climate. I guess virtual mages help the virtual travellers, because virtual travellers are much slower and are often preyed upon by virtual bandits.

Funny enough both water, stone, and wind elementalists are listed as actually being POPULAR in use of travelling in their help-files. But they are not because its so easy to travel. It would add work for magickerrs in Allanak indeed.

[Stroker]

One or two guards

That is, two NPC guards, but a nice house-sized argosy pulled by a few mekillots should contain a formidable collection of guards, even if they are VNPC.

Things boil down to the time change recently implemented, so it seems. Let's change it back! No, I'm kidding, but it was more realistic in the past, I agree.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Make it dangerous then. Making a NPC be able enter a wagon is not that damned hard. Make raiding groups, which is also not hard, if every NPC in that group is programsed to follow the leader of the group, assist that leader, and 'track' his way back to that leader if seperated. Once more, this is not difficult by code standards alone.

Slow the wagons. A wagon will not move as fast as a rider. Reflect that. People are saying it hurts playability. That sorta depends on your definition of playability. If yours is that if you can't make it from Allanak to Tuluk in under an OOC hour, then tough luck. If your definition is that playability should equal semi-realism, then this actually enhances that.

I've always thought that there should be more hovelish places. Expanding the world in terms of rooms and creating the need for a mount to rest two times between the City-States also creates the needs for these hovels, which you might assume would spring up along the trading routes. From the ambitious tavern-keeper-inna-fort-witha-stable-and-bedding concept, to the tribe who wishs to involve themselves in trade and thus set up a secure camp along the road, the additional opprotunities for locations are absolutely sexy.

And don't give me that shit about 'spread-out-and-thinning-playerbase' crap. If you folks are out alla time roving, you're already spread out.

Pardon me. I need sleep.

[Anonymous]

I still hold out hope for a series of Tuluk vs. Allanak engagements that doubling the distance between the two, roomwise, would only hurt.  With an average playerbase in the 40-60 range, there just aren't enough people to support realistic supply lines and things of that sort.

[UnderSeven]

Slow the wagons. A wagon will not move as fast as a rider. Reflect that. People are saying it hurts playability. That sorta depends on your definition of playability. If yours is that if you can't make it from Allanak to Tuluk in under an OOC hour, then tough luck. If your definition is that playability should equal semi-realism, then this actually enhances that.

No, don't slow wagons, they are actually QUITE slow.  The slowest walking creature in the game could catch up to a wagon without really tring.  What needs to be done is npc delay implemented.  Currently a pc using the pilot skill takes a vveerrry long time.  Though it's already been pointed out time and time again something eventually needs to be done about the lack of npc delay.

[Stroker]

Making a NPC be able enter a wagon is not that damned hard.

This has been discussed in the past. The reason this action is not implemented is because there are a lot of 'villages' and 'camps' out there that would suffer to powerful npcs. Such a confrontation may possibly result in an entire annhilation of an entire village, just because there aren't enough NPCs to deflect the assault. For instance, if a bahamet attacks a camp of 10 NPCs it will likely kill them all, even though the camp might have contained a hundred or more VNPCs that could, with some difficulty, defeat the bahamet.

[Uglyhead]

The first time I tried to get from 'Nak to Tuluk I got killed by large tarantulas.

Maybe I should've cut straight north across the sands instead of sticking to the roads...

[Agent_137]

The first time I tried to get from 'Nak to Tuluk I got killed by large tarantulas.

Maybe I should've cut straight north across the sands instead of sticking to the roads...

ask around IC for the best route
and don't go alone.
leaving the city alone = death. I mean, that should be common knowledge.

[Uglyhead]

Leaving the city alone = Death

There were certain, uhm... unpleasant circumstances back in the city which would've made it difficult to find a travelling companion.

emote loosens his collar and looks around uneasily.