Unfair raids/attackers when Imm's aren't around..

[Gar]

It seems kind of silly to ask folks to inform IMMs when you're going to commit a crime where only you and the PC victim will witness.  That's your business and you cannot plan for every eventuality.  

Even if you thought it was a good idea to inform an Imm, how would that work?  
Wish all I'm going to kill this merchant in his apartment, there should be no witness.  Just wanted to tell you in case something goes wrong.

Do you wait for a response or approval?  Do you need permission?  If not then it wouldn't have helped Ouch as there was none online anyway.  How about all the intended murders that never take place?  Wish all I'm planning to murder this guy when he gets home...  HE could wait there for hours and never have anything happen, meanwhile IMM has to wait around in case something happens?

What about if this person (or any other) was just going to break in and steal some stuff or rough up the merchant?  Do you need to inform the Imms for that?  Like I said, it seems like a silly idea to me.

My final point is who cares about your merchant?  You say you were "in" with the templarate but I doubt that much.  Maybe a PC templar but they all don't know every merchant in town.  And sometimes they can be so cold to the common folks.  I'd just leave it as that and move along.

[Quirk]

One of the basic premises here seems screwy.

The thug unlocks the door, enters, attacks the merchant.

The merchant runs outside, locks the door and seeks help.

If the thug could unlock the door to get in, why would the thug need to worry about sun roofs and the like to get back outside? It seems pretty much a given that the thug can get straight back out again, and all this is very moot.

Quirk

[spawnloser]

Yeah, the 'thug' could easily be long gone by the time anyone showed up to help...with or without IMM intervention.

[SpyGuy]

By code some doors are unpickable from the inside, by logic there should be a latch or something.  Even assuming there isnt, busting down most doors or hacking at most locks can be done easily.

I say its a good idea for the thug to wish up when he's doing a planned assassination.  Because just as code has limits for the victim (NPC soldiers not responding), it has limits for the attacker too (unrealistic difficulty getting out of the room).

[jhunter]

Which then makes it even ground for both.
I think this whole idea is pretty useless, I personally will not ever wish up beforehand unless I'm planning on doing something unusual and need assistance for it.
If the other person needs the assistance, let them deal with it. I like to try and keep wishing for any reason to an absolute minimum if at all possible.

That's just the way I feel about it.

I think this cry about unfairness is ridiculous...as someone had stated they got themselves killed in the end, it was their own damned fault.

[Boggis]

In the vast majority of situations the Imms aren't required to animate the surroundings. By all means wish up and request Imm assistance politely if you feel the situation warrants it and maybe something will come of it or maybe something won't - but taking away other players' ability to act simply because an Imm doesn't have the time or inclination to jump in as well could never work.

The situation you described could easily have been dealt with without any Imm input right at that very moment. Find a PC templar later and report the crime and maybe bribe them to "prioritise it", find some PC militia and grease their palms a little to bring some heat onto the criminal, organise for a couple of poor PC Byn runners who've spent all their 'sid on ale and hookers to do a bit of moonlighting and beat seven shades of shite out the thug before bringing you his head, etc. All of these bring more players into the RP and more fun for all involved.

Having said all this if I was the player of the thug and I was going to conduct a pre-meditated murder of somebody I'd definitely inform the Imms of my plans beforehand via email and throw a wish up referencing my email before going to commit the deed. Nobody can complain later if its all there in black and white and the Imms can jump in if they choose to inject a level of realism that the code can't provide. This has always worked out fine in the past for me and the Imms never did end up eating my brainz funnily enough.

[Anonymous]

I will normally email my clan imm ahead of time explaining to them the Why's and the When's as well as a wish up.

It's not a competition with the immortals, they are there to help bring the world around us to life.  I'd rather wish up and then let the complaining player be dealt with by the Imms than have Imms come back to me seeking clarification on motive and method.

[JollyGreenGiant]

Just to restate what has appeared multiple times over various discussions - it is always a good idea to email an Imm, be it your clan immortal, their clan immortal, or the mud account, any time you're planning a PK.  Note the use of the word planning.  Sometimes the right circumstance comes along and there isn't time for an email beforehand, although one after would still be polite.

That being said, I'm not entirely sure I understand what the original poster's problem was, or what was construed as unfair.  I'm in agreement with Boggis.  Handle what you can IC, and what you can't, email an imm about, or wish up if it is more time critical than that.

[naatok]

I understand what our Ouching friend is trying to say here.

If ArmageddonMud were like the matrix, we would have a vast array of coded constructs 'intelligent' enough to make the difference in these matters.

For better or worse, we don't have such a world.....yet.

As a player, my enjoyment of the game comes a great deal from both my own vainglorious desires of power for my PC, and my desire to play a realistic part which adds to the overall enjoyment of the game for everyone.  I feel, perhaps wrongly, that these are the two fundamental motivations for interactive games in the first place, expecially roleplaying games.

As far as wouldbe assassins contacting the staff regarding their potential activities, here's a nugget of wisdom from my experiences of what the staff feels is important information players should provide them with:

In just about every clan I've ever been in, staff has included in the OOC clan documentation that players should make clan imms aware of their activities when such activities include killing someone in game.  Therefore if our wouldbe assassin is part of a clan, s/he should let the clan imms know what s/he intends to do, including the whos, whats, whens, wheres, hows and whys...if it is possible/relevant.

This leaves the question of what the so-called 'loner' pcs should do in such circumstances.  Honestly, I don't know, but I have an opinion.  It is
-always- desireable to let staff know what your pc is up to when it involves mischief, murder and mayhem.  Such activities can and do affect plotlines in the game.

As a side note, it is probably desireable to try and confine such activities to time periods which are 'prime' for the majority of players and staff to be online.  No, this isn't always possible, but we should at least -try- to do so.  That would help mitigate problems such as the one we're discussing.

Just the opinion of a naughty monkey.  Take it or give it a wide berth at your discretion.

[Cuusardo]

You can't say for certain whether or not there were IMMs who already knew that the attack was going to happen.  There are many, many ways that the IMMs could have been informed before hand that you might not know about.

For example, if the assassin was clanned they most likely emailed their clan IMM to say "Hey, I'm going to be killing this person off."  (Or at least, they should have done so.)  Also, if this happened in Tuluk, the assassin could have gone to the proper people and bought a license for it, which means the IMMs would find out that way.  All of these things, you would never know about, because you aren't meant to.

I'm not making a judgement about whether anyone was acting twinkish.  All I am doing is pointing out that it's very likely that some IMMs knew about this person's plans already.

[WarriorPoet]

I play Arm so I DONT have to inform the Immortals and write up a page long summary of exactly why I want to kill this guy or rob that girl. I have left muds forever that required me to write up a PK 'why' sheet, or even a 'wish' about it. That's horseshit, imho. We're all adults here, and we came into this world knowing that there are gangster players out there who are just waiting for a gullible, lax moron to come along so they can shank and rob. We, as players, are quite capable of taking care of this ourselves without having to bring in the Imms.

How? ICly, that soldier would have reacted, correct. But how? He's definately not coming with you, due to code restrictions, but IC, he's just not going to move for ya. He might have 'virtually' said,"Fuck off. I've got orders not to leave my post." Bam. Your OOC problem is fixed. That soldier doesn't care about your plight, and unless you heavily padded that there Templar's pockets, I doubt he/she would leap up and scurry to your house to snatch a would-be robber or killer. They have important shit to be doing, instead of dealing with your petty problems. You survived, no? All that means is that you have the potential to seek your revenge, and in doing so enrich the world we're trying to create.

Now, if I had been planning a hit or caper for RL weeks in advance, and the scene had alot of potential for numerous characters, I might mail and wish, just so the Imm's would have a headsup on what could turn into a great storyline. But, just a passing robbery or knifing? No.

We live in a harsh, unforgiving world, and I can imagine an arrogant Templar sneering and saying,"You're alive, no? Good, good, be happy with that, and get out of my sight before I make it otherwise."

Once again, though, I'm an ass so you can probably ignore me...

[jhunter2L2]

I agree.

He might have 'virtually' said,"Fuck off. I've got orders not to leave my post." Bam. Your OOC problem is fixed. That soldier doesn't care about your plight, and unless you heavily padded that there Templar's pockets, I doubt he/she would leap up and scurry to your house to snatch a would-be robber or killer. They have important shit to be doing, instead of dealing with your petty problems.

And this argument makes no sense. Why do all the soldiers come after you for every OTHER crime under the sun the rest of the time. You tried to steal from another poor bastard on the other side of town. Let's arrest you! Someone just got attacked by someone in their house..Eh? who cares. Doesn't add up sometimes. That's just the way it goes with NPCs and the crim code.

[Miee]

Shit!  I've just been attacked!  Help me NPC Templar.
<wishes up>
Ahh!  Ahh!  He was in my house and... and my stuff and...
<no imm response>
emote NPC templar looks you over disdainfully before strolling off to inspect a chip in the road.

Why did the templar ignore me?

Because s/he -can-.

Until we have that perfect Naatok Matrix of naughty monkeys, we're going to have to work around the lack of imms to animate what we need.  Could the crim code need tweaking?  I suppose.  Do I have any potential solutions?   Nope, and I can't see having to e-mail the Imms before you commit a crime a feasible solution.  Consider all they have deal with already.  Apps, submissions, special apps, special orders, silly requests to make multi-colored posting easier, RPTs, HRPTs, their own clans, the petty infighting of players, OOC info being passed around like a bong at a Phish concert, and the copious amounts of oral sex that come with being Imm.

Also, see ShaLeah's post.  It's not unfair, it's Armageddon.

[WarriorPoet]

He might have 'virtually' said,"Fuck off. I've got orders not to leave my post." Bam. Your OOC problem is fixed. That soldier doesn't care about your plight, and unless you heavily padded that there Templar's pockets, I doubt he/she would leap up and scurry to your house to snatch a would-be robber or killer. They have important shit to be doing, instead of dealing with your petty problems.

And this argument makes no sense. Why do all the soldiers come after you for every OTHER crime under the sun the rest of the time. You tried to steal from another poor bastard on the other side of town. Let's arrest you! Someone just got attacked by someone in their house..Eh? who cares. Doesn't add up sometimes. That's just the way it goes with NPCs and the crim code.

Exactly, that's just the way it goes. I can think of half a hundred reasons, IC, that a templar, milita, or soldier wouldn't come when you asked. It seems to me, that if you get busted commiting a crime, then you get busted, tough. NPC's or VNPC's saw you. But if you're slick, and you're good at thievery/burglary/murdering, then you're going to get away with it. Good for you! Noone saw it, and therefore noone cares.

But, the original poster's problem is not that the thug didn't get in trouble for the break in, but that when he ran to tattle to an authority figure, that none responded due to PC absence at the moment and lack of response by Immortals. Correct?

It seems to me that the thug did what he planned, which was break in unnoticed. Had he failed, it woulda activated the crim code and he would have been busted, no? Sure, the 'homeowner' caught him and got scuffed up a bit, fled out of the house squeeling and wailing, but once again: Templars and other law enforcement officials are busy buggers, PC or NPC, shit happens. They, ICly, could have weighed the options and decided that the thug was gone and a trip ALL THE WAY to the house just wasn't worth the effort, especially for someone who doesn't have fancy pants, a spiffy ring, or a mountain of coins to throw around to entice them to go after the criminal.

I guess it's just a question of playability vs realism. There can't always be a templar on or an Imm with the time animate one, so we have to deal with it like I said. That NPC isn't moving unless it gets animated, but InCharacter, it would respond somehow. The easiest way to expain this lapse, to me, is that the soldier or templar just doesn't care at the moment.

Besides, like I said:

Once again, though, I'm an ass so you can probably ignore me...

[Agent_137]

emote murders this thread.