Unfair raids/attackers when Imm's aren't around..

[ouch...]

Okay, something happened a while ago that I was very unhappy about. If you are a pc that is going to try and kill someone, or anything of the sort, I would wish up and tell the immortals to do so, if it might later involve the help of the person you are attacking. Because, in my situation, a person attacked me, and I could have gotten them back, only if there was an immortal online. It had happened once before, almost the same situation, but with another character, and not only was I able to get an immortal to get some help with the templarate, but we were able to get the fella who tried to kill my character.

All I am saying, is if you are having something like that happen, wish up if you can please, you don't have to wait for a reply or anything of the sort. Just do it, so the Imm's will know wether or not they will have to be ready. Anyways, don't do it if you just see someone out in the forest, but if it were someone in a place, where if you attack someone, you -codedly- don't get wanted, then I would do it. Thanks,

And if you could, since sometimes you can't really plan these situations, at least give the player an ooc message, or e-mail, to tell them to be online, so then it will give you a chance. Be creative, but fair.

Thanks.

[Dakkon Black]

Man that sounds very unfair... I love it

As long as it was IC that is, no abuse of OOC methods.

[Agent_137]

I've read it twice but I don't really follow.

Are you saying that if I intend to whack some fella, I should wishup to let the Immortals know so that they can give me a full playing experience?

That makes sense. A little courtesy that contributes to the continuity of the game as a whole.

[ouch....]

Okay.. let me just give you a story line.

Merchant A is in his small little apartment with a small open sun roof in the center of the commons.

Thug B slowly unlocks the door, enters, shuts the door, and attacks Merchant A.

Somehow Merchant A is able to open the door and escape, shutting the door behind him and locking the door.

Now then, the merchant only has a certain amount of time before the thug can stack the merchan'ts belongings together, so he can stand on them, and escape through the sun roof.

(Not saying this has happened, but if it could, it -would- require the help of an immortal, and if the immortals aren't online to help the merchant, then the thug is screwed also, but in the cases that had occured, the thug was able to escape codedly, don't ask how, it is to icly)

Anyways,
Merchant A runs out, shouting for help, makes his way to a soldier, tells him what has happened.

Now.. in real life, this soldier, would call in a few of his other mates and they would investigate, or something of the sort. But, since there were no immortals online, while the player that was playing Merchant A wished up, and there was no answer, no one there.. so.. he is screwed. The thug can take what he wants and climb out of the room, free. Now, the code works so that this wont happen in places where you could get wanted, but since it was in a secure area, when the thug attacked the merchant , he did not get wanted, cause he was in a place like that.

Understand now? I did the best I could.

[Ouch..]

Yes Agent, thats one reason. It will offer a better playing experience for EVERYONE, I don't mind if a person kills my character, I just mind if they do it unfairly. It will offer a fair trade for both players, a better chance for the thig to escape, and a better chance for the merchant to get help.

[Anonymous]

I don't entirely understand what your getting at, real life isn't fair, why should an attack on Arm be? :roll:

[Trenidor]

Quick crying! I'm so sick of people complaining about stuff.

First:
IRL, a soldier or cop will not do anything till information is gathered. This take a long time, most the time soldiers will not move their partners to do something unless they have more information.

Second:
Why would she be sneaking through the sun roof? she could just break open the door again and take all the merchants belongings out with them while the merchant is away.
Even if they aren't that smart. They can frantically be searching of ways out of the place. Windows in appartments, even go as far as to use the axe leaning against the wall to break down the door.

Third:
Why would you need the imms permission to do anything? Most of the game is designed that the imms don't need to help unless the situation is very urgent.

Forth:
It appears to me you are upset about this thing that caused you to be very unhappy. I also belive that you were screwed and are just trying to get someone in trouble.

Read my sig for more info why I appear pissed someone brings this up.

[Ouch..]

In REAL LIFE if someone were to attack you, and you locked them in your house, which hand no way out, not even windows or wooden doors to break through, you could call the police and they would come. You would have to wait for very long either, depending on where you live, but like in a main city in arm, Tuluk, or Allanak.

Okay.. now comparing that to arm.

You are in your house. Someone comes in and attacks you, the door was unlocked, for -some- particular reason, or they attack you right when you open it. Or a number of other things that could happen. Anyways, the attacker comes after you, gets a few minor hits on you, and you manage to escape. Then, you leave, shut and lock the door. Now you can find a soldiers or Templar's mind, to report it. They will come in and investigate, it is there job, or at least they will tell you what to do. If they are to busy or something, but they just plain wont answer. And with my certain character, he was respected through the templars and such, they would have come right to the spot, especially if you are badly wounded and begging for help.

Now in the situation that happened with me, the imm's weren't online, so I had nothing to do, besides wait. And unfortunatel, the fella escaped through a way I did not know, and so it is quite annoying, since almost the exact same situation happened before, but the imm's were online. The thug had time to escape and everything, but they were stupid and just stayed, giving me time to get help, get in there with the soldiers, lock him in, and so on and so forth.

This was with a past character also, and I am not to happy about it.
Now do you understand at all?...

It would add a better fairness to the thug and the merchant, giving the thug an easier way to escape, and the merchant a fair game to get help.

Now do you understand? This is the last time I am trying, I am running out of words, and repeating stuff again.

[Agent_137]

Yes, i get it now.

it's not about fairness at all. It's giving fair warning to the imms so you don't abuse their absence.

Wishing up or emailing them your naughty intentions is a way to safeguard you from accusations of twinkish behavior, abusing imm absensce, and using ooc knowledge.

[Bestatte]

Because in real life, you have non-virtual next door neighbors, non-virtual police officers, non-virtual cell phones, non-virtual all sorts of other methods of getting help.

In the game, if an IMM isn't around and something happens in a room that isn't crim-coded (someone's private apartment), the victim is fucked even if he is able to escape and flag down an NPC for help.

If I got mugged in my own house and ran out the door screaming, and saw a cop on the corner, you can bet your ass that cop would be at my door with a squad-car to follow a few minutes later.

If my character gets mugged in her apartment and runs out the door screaming, and sees a soldier at the corner, and an IMM isn't around, NOTHING HAPPENS.

Edited to add - I just had an idea - maybe this might address the situation:

Perhaps apartments can have a flag attached to them, that allows the Nenyuk to "assign" the apartment to whoever is currently paying the rent or otherwise authorized to live there.

Once assigned, if someone has an -unwelcome- visitor, the tenant can "incriminate" the unwelcome visitor.  It would allow templar PCs and IMMs to see who did the incriminating and where it happened.

This way, if someone just gets pissed at their boyfriend and incriminates them for no damned good reason and wastes the templar's time, the templar can go after the tenant and give them a pleasant little WTF!!! lecture on preventing the peacekeepers from doing their job, because they're too busy dealing with the tenant's bullshit.

And if it's legit, the templar will be able to investigate.

Thoughts?

[EvilRoeSlade]

The incriminate idea is way easy to abuse, but beyond that...

To address the original poster, you have NO way of knowing that the thug didn't do exactly what you recommended.  The immortals can't always be of assistance.

This is why you hire employees.  So instead of having to wish up to animate a soldier, you just contact the warrior under your employ and have him bring down house.  If people attack you while your warrior employee isn't online (assuming that he's around enough for it to be convenient to the thug) then that's game abuse and you can write an E-mail all about it.

[SpyGuy]

The situation isnt good, but at the same time what can you do?  No criminal is going to sit locked in a house for hours, a skilled one could likely slip through whatever exit he used before you could get a templar or soldiers to respond enough to go in and bust him.  Also, are you sure this attempt was even organized or just someone breaking into your house?

Its never a bad idea to wish up about organized assassinations and the like.  But even if it were RL and NPCs always responded, sometimes the bad guy will get away.  Thats why you need to figure out what they look like and then the templars can do something about it later  :twisted:

"He was a tall elven male in a dark cloak, black facewrap.  I think he had this tattoo on his arm, I couldnt fully make it out though.  Looked like a mantis head, maybe a scrab head." Blah blah blah.

Watch Cops, go from there.

[Anonymous]

I had plenty of friends in the game that totally could have helped me, but none of them were online. And what Trenidor said, most of what you said was already explained, I aint trying to get anyone in trouble, I am just trying to make the game fairer and give a little heads up to people who don't understand whats needed in this kind of situation or what they should do to prepare it.

Most of all assasins, which is what attacked act alone, they move quicker, faster, and espically don't plan as much if they have something against your character. They lose sight of things that might cause a trouble to them, all they really think about is getting revenge if they have something against you. So Trenidor, nice try, but think before you type please.

[Ouch..]

Last post was by ouch, sorry.

[Ouch...]

And also adding to Trenidor's post now after reading it again. The thug would -have- to exit the room through the sun-roof, because codedly, he can. He can't break the door open and leave with all the merchants stuff if the immortals aren't online. And that also causes the merchant to not have a npc to help him.

Also,
It is not that you need an immortal's permission, you need their help, to bring down the thug. Like I said before, all my pc contacts were offline, I tried their minds while I was asking the templar for help.

[Trenidor]

I'm still sticking to my story that you are just extreemly angry about this ordeal (even jealous). I really don't think it's acceptable that this discussion take place.

[Ouch..]

Then you must have some medical problem or something, you sure you even play arm fella?

[ShaLeah]

Four, complaints of unfairness on the part of other players will not be given an audience. If you think another character was mean to you, you're most likely right.

http://www.armageddon.org/intro/overview.html


Welcome to Armageddon.

[Anonymous]

Yeah, if noone was on...then it was probably off peak times...there are people that can only play during those times.

What do you expect them to do? Stop working because it might not be fair to you if no imms are on to save you?

That's not even fucking fair to ask of people.

[Sir Diealot]

It's not a question of being mean.  If I'm reading this correctly, then the soldier..who should've, ICly, at least responded to the merchant telling him that someone just broke into his house and attacked him, just stood there stone-faced due to code limitations.

Arm being difficult IS NOT a blanket excuse to use whenever code and OOC availability make events conspire differently than they should.

[Anonymous]

You.  Want an assassin.  To email you ahead of time.  To plan out a sneak attack?!

[Agent_137]

No, crazy! This isn't about the victimizer emailing the victim. This is about the victimizer giving the imms a heads up as or before he does something that might benefit from the interaction of immortals, whether it's for or against his character.

read, people.

[Anonymous]

I don't see any reason why someone should be required to wish up, unless "they" need imm assistance to do whatever they were going to do.

ROFL

wish all Hey, uhmmm...I'm going to sneak up on this dude and kill him...I just wanted to let you guys know for no particular reason. :lol:

[marko]

If someone is going to do a crime in a place where there would be many Virtuals around - then I would suggest that during the planning of this crime that they inform the immortal of the House they are going to target.  A good example is if a thief wants to hit a noble house.  Sure, there may not be any PCs around but there would be loads of vnpcs.  To make it more interesting for the thief - let the virtuals and npcs have the opportunity for reactions.

In the particular case of Ouch... I'm not certain I'm seeing where the 'problem' of it all was.  Before Agent 137 goes off on me - I totally understand what he's saying and agree to it to an extent (that the aggressor can inform the imms beforehand of what is about to go down and see if they want to get in on the action - at the same time this is not a requirement).

Now to address the situation of soldiers not responding - big whup.  Soldiers don't have a lot of authority other than to chase someone that they already know is a criminal.  How do they find this out?  They are told by a templar.  In Ouch's case he should have run to a templar not to a soldier.  If there was no response - then he could have waited.  So what if the assassin/thief leaves the apartment?  Big deal.  Just stay away from the apartment until a templar's hand is slick with obsidian and acompanies Mr Ouch back.  

Mr Ouch says he has friends that could have helped but they weren't online.  Oh well, lay low until they do come online.  Act as your character would act - would your character actually go right back to the place of being ambushed without friends?  If so, good job for dying in a well RPed manner.  If not - why didn't you wait?  There was nothing forcing your character back...

Death happens.  Assassination happens (apparently this was a badly bungled one).  Assassination is an acceptable method of removing irritants.  But if you are playing an assassin do try and play 'fair.'    Therefore, I don't see a problem with what happened.  It may have been clumsy by the assassin but that just meant that Mr Ouch had a serious and probable potential for surviving and getting back at the assassin.  Since it didn't play out that way due to decisions by Mr Ouch and not code bugs (no, a soldier not responding isn't what I would consider a bug) then I think all was 'fair' in the end.  

Back luck on dying Mr Ouch.  Next time, perhaps you're character will react differently.

[Ouch...]

I was just saying going to a soldier as an example, I really did go to a templar. And they would have helped me most definetly, cause I did a couple of favors for him. It is a npc Templar, so I have to wish up. And yes, I know, how did I do a few favors for the npc templar, I did, alright? I know. I am not saying you -have- to do this, I am asking you guys nicely, I would do the same for you if I was the thug. I aint mad at all, just disappointed.

[Gar]

It seems kind of silly to ask folks to inform IMMs when you're going to commit a crime where only you and the PC victim will witness.  That's your business and you cannot plan for every eventuality.  

Even if you thought it was a good idea to inform an Imm, how would that work?  
Wish all I'm going to kill this merchant in his apartment, there should be no witness.  Just wanted to tell you in case something goes wrong.

Do you wait for a response or approval?  Do you need permission?  If not then it wouldn't have helped Ouch as there was none online anyway.  How about all the intended murders that never take place?  Wish all I'm planning to murder this guy when he gets home...  HE could wait there for hours and never have anything happen, meanwhile IMM has to wait around in case something happens?

What about if this person (or any other) was just going to break in and steal some stuff or rough up the merchant?  Do you need to inform the Imms for that?  Like I said, it seems like a silly idea to me.

My final point is who cares about your merchant?  You say you were "in" with the templarate but I doubt that much.  Maybe a PC templar but they all don't know every merchant in town.  And sometimes they can be so cold to the common folks.  I'd just leave it as that and move along.

[Quirk]

One of the basic premises here seems screwy.

The thug unlocks the door, enters, attacks the merchant.

The merchant runs outside, locks the door and seeks help.

If the thug could unlock the door to get in, why would the thug need to worry about sun roofs and the like to get back outside? It seems pretty much a given that the thug can get straight back out again, and all this is very moot.

Quirk

[spawnloser]

Yeah, the 'thug' could easily be long gone by the time anyone showed up to help...with or without IMM intervention.

[SpyGuy]

By code some doors are unpickable from the inside, by logic there should be a latch or something.  Even assuming there isnt, busting down most doors or hacking at most locks can be done easily.

I say its a good idea for the thug to wish up when he's doing a planned assassination.  Because just as code has limits for the victim (NPC soldiers not responding), it has limits for the attacker too (unrealistic difficulty getting out of the room).

[jhunter]

Which then makes it even ground for both.
I think this whole idea is pretty useless, I personally will not ever wish up beforehand unless I'm planning on doing something unusual and need assistance for it.
If the other person needs the assistance, let them deal with it. I like to try and keep wishing for any reason to an absolute minimum if at all possible.

That's just the way I feel about it.

I think this cry about unfairness is ridiculous...as someone had stated they got themselves killed in the end, it was their own damned fault.

[Boggis]

In the vast majority of situations the Imms aren't required to animate the surroundings. By all means wish up and request Imm assistance politely if you feel the situation warrants it and maybe something will come of it or maybe something won't - but taking away other players' ability to act simply because an Imm doesn't have the time or inclination to jump in as well could never work.

The situation you described could easily have been dealt with without any Imm input right at that very moment. Find a PC templar later and report the crime and maybe bribe them to "prioritise it", find some PC militia and grease their palms a little to bring some heat onto the criminal, organise for a couple of poor PC Byn runners who've spent all their 'sid on ale and hookers to do a bit of moonlighting and beat seven shades of shite out the thug before bringing you his head, etc. All of these bring more players into the RP and more fun for all involved.

Having said all this if I was the player of the thug and I was going to conduct a pre-meditated murder of somebody I'd definitely inform the Imms of my plans beforehand via email and throw a wish up referencing my email before going to commit the deed. Nobody can complain later if its all there in black and white and the Imms can jump in if they choose to inject a level of realism that the code can't provide. This has always worked out fine in the past for me and the Imms never did end up eating my brainz funnily enough.

[Anonymous]

I will normally email my clan imm ahead of time explaining to them the Why's and the When's as well as a wish up.

It's not a competition with the immortals, they are there to help bring the world around us to life.  I'd rather wish up and then let the complaining player be dealt with by the Imms than have Imms come back to me seeking clarification on motive and method.

[JollyGreenGiant]

Just to restate what has appeared multiple times over various discussions - it is always a good idea to email an Imm, be it your clan immortal, their clan immortal, or the mud account, any time you're planning a PK.  Note the use of the word planning.  Sometimes the right circumstance comes along and there isn't time for an email beforehand, although one after would still be polite.

That being said, I'm not entirely sure I understand what the original poster's problem was, or what was construed as unfair.  I'm in agreement with Boggis.  Handle what you can IC, and what you can't, email an imm about, or wish up if it is more time critical than that.

[naatok]

I understand what our Ouching friend is trying to say here.

If ArmageddonMud were like the matrix, we would have a vast array of coded constructs 'intelligent' enough to make the difference in these matters.

For better or worse, we don't have such a world.....yet.

As a player, my enjoyment of the game comes a great deal from both my own vainglorious desires of power for my PC, and my desire to play a realistic part which adds to the overall enjoyment of the game for everyone.  I feel, perhaps wrongly, that these are the two fundamental motivations for interactive games in the first place, expecially roleplaying games.

As far as wouldbe assassins contacting the staff regarding their potential activities, here's a nugget of wisdom from my experiences of what the staff feels is important information players should provide them with:

In just about every clan I've ever been in, staff has included in the OOC clan documentation that players should make clan imms aware of their activities when such activities include killing someone in game.  Therefore if our wouldbe assassin is part of a clan, s/he should let the clan imms know what s/he intends to do, including the whos, whats, whens, wheres, hows and whys...if it is possible/relevant.

This leaves the question of what the so-called 'loner' pcs should do in such circumstances.  Honestly, I don't know, but I have an opinion.  It is
-always- desireable to let staff know what your pc is up to when it involves mischief, murder and mayhem.  Such activities can and do affect plotlines in the game.

As a side note, it is probably desireable to try and confine such activities to time periods which are 'prime' for the majority of players and staff to be online.  No, this isn't always possible, but we should at least -try- to do so.  That would help mitigate problems such as the one we're discussing.

Just the opinion of a naughty monkey.  Take it or give it a wide berth at your discretion.

[Cuusardo]

You can't say for certain whether or not there were IMMs who already knew that the attack was going to happen.  There are many, many ways that the IMMs could have been informed before hand that you might not know about.

For example, if the assassin was clanned they most likely emailed their clan IMM to say "Hey, I'm going to be killing this person off."  (Or at least, they should have done so.)  Also, if this happened in Tuluk, the assassin could have gone to the proper people and bought a license for it, which means the IMMs would find out that way.  All of these things, you would never know about, because you aren't meant to.

I'm not making a judgement about whether anyone was acting twinkish.  All I am doing is pointing out that it's very likely that some IMMs knew about this person's plans already.

[WarriorPoet]

I play Arm so I DONT have to inform the Immortals and write up a page long summary of exactly why I want to kill this guy or rob that girl. I have left muds forever that required me to write up a PK 'why' sheet, or even a 'wish' about it. That's horseshit, imho. We're all adults here, and we came into this world knowing that there are gangster players out there who are just waiting for a gullible, lax moron to come along so they can shank and rob. We, as players, are quite capable of taking care of this ourselves without having to bring in the Imms.

How? ICly, that soldier would have reacted, correct. But how? He's definately not coming with you, due to code restrictions, but IC, he's just not going to move for ya. He might have 'virtually' said,"Fuck off. I've got orders not to leave my post." Bam. Your OOC problem is fixed. That soldier doesn't care about your plight, and unless you heavily padded that there Templar's pockets, I doubt he/she would leap up and scurry to your house to snatch a would-be robber or killer. They have important shit to be doing, instead of dealing with your petty problems. You survived, no? All that means is that you have the potential to seek your revenge, and in doing so enrich the world we're trying to create.

Now, if I had been planning a hit or caper for RL weeks in advance, and the scene had alot of potential for numerous characters, I might mail and wish, just so the Imm's would have a headsup on what could turn into a great storyline. But, just a passing robbery or knifing? No.

We live in a harsh, unforgiving world, and I can imagine an arrogant Templar sneering and saying,"You're alive, no? Good, good, be happy with that, and get out of my sight before I make it otherwise."

Once again, though, I'm an ass so you can probably ignore me...

[jhunter2L2]

I agree.

He might have 'virtually' said,"Fuck off. I've got orders not to leave my post." Bam. Your OOC problem is fixed. That soldier doesn't care about your plight, and unless you heavily padded that there Templar's pockets, I doubt he/she would leap up and scurry to your house to snatch a would-be robber or killer. They have important shit to be doing, instead of dealing with your petty problems.

And this argument makes no sense. Why do all the soldiers come after you for every OTHER crime under the sun the rest of the time. You tried to steal from another poor bastard on the other side of town. Let's arrest you! Someone just got attacked by someone in their house..Eh? who cares. Doesn't add up sometimes. That's just the way it goes with NPCs and the crim code.

[Miee]

Shit!  I've just been attacked!  Help me NPC Templar.
<wishes up>
Ahh!  Ahh!  He was in my house and... and my stuff and...
<no imm response>
emote NPC templar looks you over disdainfully before strolling off to inspect a chip in the road.

Why did the templar ignore me?

Because s/he -can-.

Until we have that perfect Naatok Matrix of naughty monkeys, we're going to have to work around the lack of imms to animate what we need.  Could the crim code need tweaking?  I suppose.  Do I have any potential solutions?   Nope, and I can't see having to e-mail the Imms before you commit a crime a feasible solution.  Consider all they have deal with already.  Apps, submissions, special apps, special orders, silly requests to make multi-colored posting easier, RPTs, HRPTs, their own clans, the petty infighting of players, OOC info being passed around like a bong at a Phish concert, and the copious amounts of oral sex that come with being Imm.

Also, see ShaLeah's post.  It's not unfair, it's Armageddon.

[WarriorPoet]

He might have 'virtually' said,"Fuck off. I've got orders not to leave my post." Bam. Your OOC problem is fixed. That soldier doesn't care about your plight, and unless you heavily padded that there Templar's pockets, I doubt he/she would leap up and scurry to your house to snatch a would-be robber or killer. They have important shit to be doing, instead of dealing with your petty problems.

And this argument makes no sense. Why do all the soldiers come after you for every OTHER crime under the sun the rest of the time. You tried to steal from another poor bastard on the other side of town. Let's arrest you! Someone just got attacked by someone in their house..Eh? who cares. Doesn't add up sometimes. That's just the way it goes with NPCs and the crim code.

Exactly, that's just the way it goes. I can think of half a hundred reasons, IC, that a templar, milita, or soldier wouldn't come when you asked. It seems to me, that if you get busted commiting a crime, then you get busted, tough. NPC's or VNPC's saw you. But if you're slick, and you're good at thievery/burglary/murdering, then you're going to get away with it. Good for you! Noone saw it, and therefore noone cares.

But, the original poster's problem is not that the thug didn't get in trouble for the break in, but that when he ran to tattle to an authority figure, that none responded due to PC absence at the moment and lack of response by Immortals. Correct?

It seems to me that the thug did what he planned, which was break in unnoticed. Had he failed, it woulda activated the crim code and he would have been busted, no? Sure, the 'homeowner' caught him and got scuffed up a bit, fled out of the house squeeling and wailing, but once again: Templars and other law enforcement officials are busy buggers, PC or NPC, shit happens. They, ICly, could have weighed the options and decided that the thug was gone and a trip ALL THE WAY to the house just wasn't worth the effort, especially for someone who doesn't have fancy pants, a spiffy ring, or a mountain of coins to throw around to entice them to go after the criminal.

I guess it's just a question of playability vs realism. There can't always be a templar on or an Imm with the time animate one, so we have to deal with it like I said. That NPC isn't moving unless it gets animated, but InCharacter, it would respond somehow. The easiest way to expain this lapse, to me, is that the soldier or templar just doesn't care at the moment.

Besides, like I said:

Once again, though, I'm an ass so you can probably ignore me...

[Agent_137]

emote murders this thread.