HRPT Combat

[EvilRoeSlade]

I want to talk about combat during HRPTs.

I don't like it.  It seems to me that using the Armageddon combat code for mass combat is blatant and irresponsible misuse, since it was obviously never set up for fighting on such a massive scale.  It causes the game to crash, and even worse, nobody can figure out what's happening because the spam precludes retreating, advancing, giving orders, following orders, and everything else of consequence.

It would be better if instead we relied less on actual coded combat, and more on echos from the immortals.  In the HRPT in which Tuluk overthrew the Allanaki occupation, I saw this used to wonderful effect.  An immortal gave an echo to the effect that half-giants had advanced and were attempting to destroy the gates.  The PC commander replied with an emote describing how she ordered her own half-giants to hold the gates firm.  An immortal echoed what happened next, responding to this new development.  When the gates were breached, there were no more echo's (or if there were they were irrevelantly precluded by the spam), and the battle was decided by simple coded combat.  This put the HRPT to shame as far as I am concerned.  It could have been continued quite adequately in the manner it had been.  The commander could have emoted setting up snipers within buildings.  The immortals could echo the raving hordes charging in and attacking.  The commander could respond to everything by emoting out orders, and the immortals could respond with echos to describe the effect those orders are having on the battle.

I have been pondering on what way is best to realistically and fairly determine which PCs die and which don't.  This is what I've come up with.

Have but one decisive coded battle.  This battle will have nothing to do with the outcome of the fight, it will simply be to determine who lives and who dies amongst the PCs and NPCs.  The immortals should use their knowledge of the opposition and the actions that commanders take during battle to determine what opponents are faced and in what number.  Here's an example.  The forces of Exalted Good are in a war with the Minions of Evil.  The immortals know that there are 1,500 Minions of Evil, and 1,000 Forces of Good.  This means that the Forces of Good are outnumbered 1.5 to 1.  If there are 10 PCs and NPCs amongst the forces of good, then they should fight 15 Minions of Evil.  If one of the PCs or NPCs is the commander, and he ordered the Forces of Good to protect him at all costs and let no one through, then maybe the immortals will decide to modify that number (which they have determined before they even started the HRPT) and only load up 5 Minions of Evil.  The overall war between Good and Evil would have nothing to do with this, however.  It would be determined by whatever factors the immortals decided upon beforehand, and modified by whatever choices the commander made (the latter factor would only have as much effect on the plot as the immortals allowed it to, obviously).

In keeping with making combat more manageable, I think that battles should be more spread out.  If there's a battle taking place between thousands and thousands of combatants, having that battle represented by 80 PCs and NPCs on either side, all in the same room is far too cumbersome.

Instead, arrange it so that if there are 80 PCs in a battle, there are 20 in four rooms.  Or if at all possible, 10 in 8 rooms.  If you can put 5 Good PCs and 5 Evil PCs in each of those rooms, and let them handle the killing and maiming while keeping the main force virtual, so much the better.

A suggestion to add to the chaotic feel of combat:  Create a script that will allow anybody in combat to be hit by a stray arrow.  In Luir's and other locations, I've seen crim-flagged people at the gates get shot at with a script.  I think perhaps it could be adapted so that everybody in a battlefield room is at risk of being hit by an arrow.

it just becomes a matter of your coded ability keeping you alive through the spam.

I don't like the arrow idea because maybe not everyone is using arrows.

What I would like to see is better 'army' code.

The red HG's and the blue Hg's are fighting. The code is making them fight and as they do the damage is reflected in room echos such as:

Several HG's on the left flank of the Red Hg's are cut down.

And so on.

Now as a PC you can join the battle, each 'army' keeps track of how many it still has alive.
If you attack the army who is outnumbered  basically you attack it and the army fights back but it acts as what the average soldier in the unit would do. Its the same army object but it  creates sort of a subobject that is fighting you, you deplete its hps then it dies and the count of the army goes down and subobj goes away.

If you fight the side that has the numbers then you get a subobj that is like a couple or a few HG's, depending on how many. And they get some bonues for outnumbering you and more attacks depending on their numbers. And the subobj desc changes if you kill one or more etc.  With some rules like someone can rescueor asisst into your fight and gets his own subobj fighting him and you get in your subobj one less etc.

And the key to cutting down on spam, The imms can declare a wartime flag across the mud or room, such that you only get combat messages of who you are figting. You see your enemy and everything that happens to him. And you can watch one other person and see what is happening to them. Otherwise someone has to shout help! or you can assess -v them or whatnot. Like you can't pay attention to too much while you are fighting.

Type look you see.
A Unit of Red Half-giants is here fighting a unit of BLue Hg's.
A rangy man is here fighting a red half-giant.
A orange half-Giant is here fighting a few blue HG.
A bloated dwarf is here fighting few blue half-giants.
A blonde muscular man is standing here.

All you see if your not engaged is the death script emotes from the
two army fight and any deaths one way or the other unless you are watching
any one person. But you could tell bloated dwarf and orange Hg need help so
you could order blondie to assist them or assist them yourself.

With perhaps some limit like 6 for outnumbering. So if army 1 outnumbers army 2 by six or more times, you will only get the subobj actiing as if it has 6 pcs, bonus and attack wise and no more.

Well anyway, just an idea I was thinking about.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I like my idea better.  This is why:

One, it allows effective leaders to fight effective wars, instead of just inventing a bizarre new code that in the end still doesn't take into account anything but the leader's combat skills.

Second, it doesn't require any new code.  All the equipment we need we have already.

I'm not going to be a dictator about this post, but I will say that I'm more interested in discussing how mass combat is run than simply coming up with new codes for it.

[Angela Christine]

Thumbs up to atmospheric echos.  Durring the last HRPT I was in Allanak, and not part of the action.    However, every so often there would be echos of the potentially cataclysmic things going on in the Labyrinth.  It really gave the impression that Very Bad Things were happening, and it might not be a bad time to flee the city, except that rumours of bad things happening in other cities were going around, so there might not be any other cities left to flee to.  While I'm still not sure what happened in northern Allanak, whatever it was it made that bug hunt up in luir's look like a mere distraction, a diversion from the main event.  :twisted:


One suggestion:  If you are involved in the action or simply a side-lined observer, take every opportunity to post to your town's IC bullitin board.  It was very dissapointing to visit Ten Sarak for the first time and see that their BB (the luir's BB) had absolutely -nothing- on it about what happened.  Apparently people were still "gossiping" about things that had happened months or years before, but they were all too shell shocked to say anything about what happened in Luir's or the trip down to their new base.  

Sure, really "hearing" the stories directly from other PCs is better than a post because you can react and ask questions, but that isn't always an option especially for off-peak players and certain races.  Virtually there are many dwarves and elves around spreading the news in their own languages, but newbie dwarven and elven PCs may be left scratching their heads and wondering what is going on because they don't understand Sirihish very well and there are no non-virtual dwarves or elves around.  Off peak players may not be logged in durring an event, but ICly their PC -was- in town durring it and should know at least a little about what happened.  The only way for them to know what they experienced is for other players to post their own observations to the city's IC board.


AC

[Forest Junkie]

I would be up for Tha Newb's idea if there were time for new code to be implemented. Having said that, I -really- like ERS's idea on relying more on the use of echoes in HRPT's. It would add atmosphere to the game, and provide a great amount of enjoyment for those involved, I feel.

Overall, I like lots.

[Forest Junkie]

Yeah I think that FJ kicked ass in the post above. I concur.

I am a fucking idiot. I double post. I are stupid.

[Agent_137]

If you want serious mass scale combat, you have to cut back on the spam. The unit code with the "war" flag is a good way to do it.

The mostly virtual combat with echos is another good way to do it.

Unfortunately, they both leave something to be desired as far as individual involvement goes.

As a Player i'm not gonna risk my PC's life if I feel the outcome is already determined and introducing my char would not change a damn thing. I don't mind being a tiny tiny piece in the puzzle, but I'll be damned if i sign up my PC for pure cannon fodder.

Another option: change the concept of warfare. Switch to a concept more along the lines of a hoplite system. Just send out the templars.  :twisted:

But seriously, instead of total war, why don't the denizens of Zalanthas practice a more limited version? I've never been in one, just tossing out ideas, but if you can reduce the numbers of scroll generators per room, you're better off. Each city could have a smaller more elite army. PCs could sign up for it just like a clan. And then they could hire free lance mercs or the byn or whatever for supplemental. But the wars shouldn't be  free for alls that they seem to be. And then each could ride out to somewhere for the battle, have the battle, and then go home. Total war is such a waste, I can't imagine a populace who is so short on EVERYTHING would engage in it. It isn't logical at all.

Honestly though, any solution that deals with the two central problems is a good one. Those two being:
Unplayable level of spam = I don't want to go to war.
Complete irrelevance in the outcome = I don't want to go to war.

[Armaddict]

Me, with the all out combat...I don't see much of a way to change it.  With just emoting, you'll have people refusing to lose with emotes, forcing the immortals to -force- the outcome on them with echoes.

The main mass of fighting should be the npc's.  Pc's should be the skirmishers...groups of two to three fighting other groups in -separate rooms-.  Within shouting distance, for orders to be carried out.  Small fights happening through the streets/buildings/dunes...a little more spread out.

Everything happening in one room is way to spammy.

But this is right off the top of my head.  There are a million faults to it.  Heh.

[SpyGuy]

Echoes are good, but only have so many uses.  Sometimes you need to resort to code to fight it out and make it fair (I'm speaking on experience with other games, not Arm particularly).

I'm against ERS's idea of a short coded fight just to figure out who lives and dies.  It seems to me like doing it that way takes all the fun out of the actual battle and just forces PCs online to try their luck at dying, not giving them the chance to ICly do something herioc like get off that last rescue to save Templar Bluebeard's life and then go down in fame or whatever.

Spam sucks but coded combat that basically amounts to an OOC spar while ICly only the PC leaders get to really do anything..I'll pass.  What I would prefer to see is rather than a 20v20 fights, 5 4v4 fights in different areas of the city would be more fun.  Just takes more Imm involvement to have it happen simultaneously.

Just my take.

[Carnage]

When you shift everything to emoted planning rather than combat coding, you rely on that player's knowledge of military strategy, which isn't too much of a better solution. I don't expect players like j0ram or sarahjc to know about feints, counter-attacks, probing, cavalry, or anything of that sort.

If this is implemented, you detract from the character and put more of the burden on the player. How can someone play a strategist or a general if their player can't keep up? This isn't Risk. It's Armageddon MUD.

[Forest Junkie]

Carnage, wha? Are you assuming they never play combat oriented pc's. I don't know if you're right, but let's say you are. How does your argument the hold up? Most leaders who are in a position to have command over a number of troops must have pleased -someone- with their combat prowess and knowledge of the battlefield to be given such responsibility. But hell, that's just a guess.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I don't mind being a tiny tiny piece in the puzzle, but I'll be damned if i sign up my PC for pure cannon fodder.

Cannon fodder is what you are, what you always have been, and what you are going to be in this HRPT unless you decide to get the fuck out of dodge.

Me, with the all out combat...I don't see much of a way to change it. With just emoting, you'll have people refusing to lose with emotes, forcing the immortals to -force- the outcome on them with echoes.

Poweremoting won't be any more viable than it is in any other situation.  Less so, since the immortals are watching you.

The leader would just emote what she's ordering her troops to do.  She wouldn't emote the outcome.

I don't see how it could be any worse than the current situation.  Right now leaders have no effect on the battle.

I'm against ERS's idea of a short coded fight just to figure out who lives and dies. It seems to me like doing it that way takes all the fun out of the actual battle and just forces PCs online to try their luck at dying, not giving them the chance to ICly do something herioc like get off that last rescue to save Templar Bluebeard's life and then go down in fame or whatever.

Spam sucks but coded combat that basically amounts to an OOC spar while ICly only the PC leaders get to really do anything..I'll pass. What I would prefer to see is rather than a 20v20 fights, 5 4v4 fights in different areas of the city would be more fun. Just takes more Imm involvement to have it happen simultaneously.

Why can't you get off a rescue to save Templar Bluebeard in a short coded fight?

There would still be a coded fight as a climax.  The brutally of the fight would depend both on how well the army did, and information the immortals know of beforehand.

Furthermore, the head honcho wouldn't be the only one emoting.  He could give orders to his leader underlings, but it would be up to them what to actually do.  And if say, 20 PCs, none of which were leaders, decided to make a beeline for the leader of the opponent army, then why not?  I don't know how the immortals would want to handle something like that, but they could probably force all the PCs in the rally to go north, and load up the leader's 50 bodyguards for the PCs to try to fight past.  This isn't a MUSH, so there'd be a lot of flexibility on what was handled with the code and what wasn't.

[jhunter]

I don't care for the spam so much, but I do enjoy that chaos feeling of the battle. I also like having to make a decision at a moment's notice of what I'm going to do and how I'm going to fit into it.

Real battle isn't going to be all neat and tidy, I don't think it should be in Arm either.

I'd rather it stayed as it is rather than turn into a slowed down, leader emote controlled thing.

You can't see everyone and everything with ease in battles of these sizes and I don't think you should be able to.

It makes it harder and more challenging the way it is.

I'd get really bored having to sit there and watch an emote fest until the end...I'd feel really uninvolved in the battle even though technically I'm supposed to be in the thick of it the whole time.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I was a leader in the last HRPT, though I won't be one in this one.  I didn't get to do anything, since I spent the whole time either losing link, or recovering from lag to find that the battle was over.  It wasn't chaos, it was simply unplayable.

[jhunter]

Odd, I'm hearing that from someone else too. I personally haven't had the problem.

Ok less radical idea.

What about the classic 'group' command be enabled for these events. But it only has one effect. You can only see things affecting people in your group. You only see the combat messages for people in your group in the rooms flagged for the main battles. If everyone was in the same group no point. But if the Salarr were all in one group, Byn in one group ets. They wouldn't see the other's groups spams. And you would have to do a look to see if they were getting hurt or whatnot or they could yell at you. Byn! We need some backup. Help get ol Sloshy from the fight etc.

And this idea could probably be imped in a week

So its almost like each group is in their own little room...or something.

What if we had a /briefcombat command that allowed us to only see the combat scroll for ourselves and anyone that we are following (or is following us)?

Heh, sorry didn't see your post Dead Newbie. Great minds...

[Angela Christine]

Or even an option to gag all the misses and dodges.  Just show the attacks that actually affect someone.  In a one-on-one situation all those misses may be significant to give a fuller picture of what is going on, but in a large battle the just increase the scroll rate.

Some people do something like this with their client, but many players have trouble customizing their client that way.


AC

[jmordetsky]

Heres another idea....what if you created room objects in the field that had ldescs of something like:

A small skirimish rages here.
A group of Tuluki Soliders fights some Byn here.

Inside the skirmish room is a description fitting to a battlefield and partipants could "enter skirmish" to engage other PCs or NPCs within the skirmish.

Ah, just a thought...kind of unwieldy though.

Some people do something like this with their client, but many players have trouble customizing their client that way.


AC

Even if you gag the spam, the mud still has to send it to your client. With 50 npcs and pcs in a room making basically the same 50 lines of spam to send to 30 different connections a couple times a second perhaps, that lags you such that even if you do see something gnawing on something of yours you might like to keep, by the ime the command gets through. Too late.

At least it makes the battle a hell of a lot easier to follow on your end.

[Twilight]

Cannon fodder or not, chances of survival zero or not, ability to change the outcome of a RPT or not, you don't do what you the player want (save your precious character) but rather what your character would do.  They may or may not be aware of the above factors.

My only problem with HRPTs is that the last one I was at (admittedly awhile ago) the machine lag was so great that my character died.  Nothing like watching spam go by for 30 seconds and not having your commands hit the mud for action.  Oh well, but if you expect lots of fighting and that it will create machine lag, break it down into smaller scale actions so that its not lag that is determining whether my character lives or dies, but the wits of my character and his survival instincts, like it normally is.  Solve that one issue, and I have no problem with any of the fighting I've seen at RPTs.

[Carnage]

Carnage, wha? Are you assuming they never play combat oriented pc's. I don't know if you're right, but let's say you are. How does your argument the hold up? Most leaders who are in a position to have command over a number of troops must have pleased -someone- with their combat prowess and knowledge of the battlefield to be given such responsibility. But hell, that's just a guess.

No, I'm not assuming they never played combat oriented PCs. Anyone can play a combat oriented PC, be active, and rise to the position of sergeant, lieutenant, captain, or whatever with enough time. I highly doubt that people are promoted based on their knowledge of military strategy. More likely it's how their characters do when they're on missions and handle responsibility, as well as trust.

[Sandstorm Phoenix]

More likely it's how their characters do when they're on missions and handle responsibility, as well as trust.

or simply how long they've been alive or how buff they are.   But you don't expect Sergeants or Lieutenants or even Captains to perform as a General would.  

I would like to see a place for a tactical PC mind in some of the wars or skirmishes of this scale.  A chance for a Great Military Leader to be measured by something more than warm-body recruitment numbers and spar hours.  


Having said that, I have seen at least once where PC tactical planning was able to modify the outcome of a HRPT.   Didn't change the outcome, but it sure made a significant shift in the aftermath.