Consolidation...

[Vox]

Four in the morning and one of those crazy ideas fills my thoughts... Forgive me for sharing it with all of you. :twisted:

Ok, here it is...

1.) Close down Oash and make it a virtual House like Kasix, Fale and Jal. Balance the North's Tenneshi and Winrothol with the South's Tor and Borsail. You wanna play a noble, choose one of those four.

2.) Close down all the d-elf coded tribes and re-open Blackwing. If someone wants to play a d-elf, they play a Blackwing, period. The other d-elf tribes can have virtual and npc presence.

3.) Close down the Anyali and the 'tribal people' section. You want to play a human tribal, play a Muark. D-elf tribal, see #2. Remove nomad from the subguilds and bendune from caravan guide, giving them spearcrafting instead.

4.) Close down Nenyuk, Bards of Poets Circle and the Atrium.  One of the Nenyuki Imms can make a PC representative to handle housing or assign these duties to the Ministry of the City(i.e. Templarate).

Harsh? maybe. Dramatic? sure. Necessary? I think so, let's see what everyone else thinks  :shock:

The purpose of such sweeping closures is simply 'consolidation'. I have no problem with any of the clans I'm suggesting be closed other than they spread out player and Imm focus in a way I think detracts from the living plotline of the world. Fleshing out the already indepth clans that exist is the greatest way to put everyone's fingers on the pulse of Zalanthas.

It's great to make up your own clan and rituals and stuff, but there are already some badass clans in existence that simply need more players in them, performing the rituals and stuff that already exist. Strong populations within a tight group of clans means more colorful political struggle and interaction on a broader, global scale. Ultimately I think it means more fun for everyone involved.

That's not to say that these clans can't be openned and others invented.. But I'm of a mind to say these things should happen when the playerbase is far heftier than it is now.  I'd rather see mantis, halfling and gith opened before these other clans actually. I could see these options opening if there was a hefty population of players in all the open clans.

Realistically speaking this concept makes as much sense as the Karma system in which human, elf, dwarf and half-elf were made the predominent races.

-Borsail and Tor are the upper echelon of Noble Houses in Allanak... The slaving House and the militant House.. In the North you have Tenneshi as the militant House and Winrothol as the slaving House... Nice balance there I'd say. Why thin the ranks of 'noble players' by keeping Oash open? It won't be closed forever, just leave it as a virtual presence for a year or two.

-Desert elves are 1 Karma, but admittedly are extremely hard to play correctly. The Blackwing already have an outpost and their own land, they're nice and established with a rich history dating back to the beginnings of Arm. Imagine if d-elf players had no other choice but Blackwing, a place in which people could actually LEARN how to properly play a d-elf. Let people flesh this clan out for a couple years and watch how it breeds extremely good d-elf players, ready and able for when the playerbase is large enough to open other tribes for play.

-Tan Muark, the ultimate in human nomadic RP. Well established and extremely deep, those who desire to run this type of PC should play a Gypsy. Again a few years with no other nomadic human choice other than Muark and you'll find it breeding extremely good tribal players. Balance a heavy playerbase of human tribals with a heavy playerbase of elven tribals and you've got the makings of some fantastic RP opportunities. Wars and treaties people... The real kind.

-Nenyuk, Bards of Poet's Circle, the Atrium, Very cool clans but really the services they provide could easily be absorbed by other clans. The Templarate of each city could assume Nenyuk's housing responsibilities. Bards can easily be absorbed by other houses while still maintaining a loose guild-like quality if they want to meet. The Atrium's servant training services can be absorbed by the Noble houses who were happily training their own servants before the Atrium opened.

-We're freeing up players and Imms alike to inject their creativity and time collectively. Imagine the possibilities...

I enjoy diversity, I'm just starting to feel as though what's here already needs to be colored more brightly.... and to do that we need to consolidate by trimming the fat.

What say the rest of you?

[Werd]

I agree with everything you said. I am a fairly new player to Arm, and while I have been considering the different sorts of roles I would like to try, a big concern of mine has been the populations of the ISO clans I had interest in trying. I think (and I could be totally wrong on this because I have no experience in any of them yet) trimming the fat as you say would be a good idea to make them more playable and fun. As for those other clans, it does sound like they are pretty unnecessary and wouldn't be a big loss in closing them and allowing other existing clans to absorb their roles.

[Pungee]

1.) Close down Oash and make it a virtual House like Kasix, Fale and Jal. Balance the North's Tenneshi and Winrothol with the South's Tor and Borsail. You wanna play a noble, choose one of those four.

Uh... Why? As it stands there are perhaps three or four -played- noble houses. Since I was once IN House Oash I find this more than objectional and as a fan of diversity in choosing I think this is a horrible idea.

2.) Close down all the d-elf coded tribes and re-open Blackwing. If someone wants to play a d-elf, they play a Blackwing, period. The other d-elf tribes can have virtual and npc presence.

Speaking as someone who also has played a lot of D-Elves... I object once again. There are currently two open D-Elf coded tribes. Soh Lanah Kah and Akei'Ta Var. I've been in both and they are VASTLY different in terms of ideology and behavior. By saying "You're all blackwing or else." or making the tribes virtual you take away a lot and will probably force many players to say "screw it" and just leave arm all together.

3.) Close down the Anyali and the 'tribal people' section. You want to play a human tribal, play a Muark. D-elf tribal, see #2. Remove nomad from the subguilds and bendune from caravan guide, giving them spearcrafting instead.

I've never played a human tribe but once again... I disagree. Part of the great thing about arm is that you have all these wonderful coded options and communities which are supported and cared for by staff. Removing them would anger many, I imagine since I know it would upset me a huge amount.

4.) Close down Nenyuk, Bards of Poets Circle and the Atrium.  One of the Nenyuki Imms can make a PC representative to handle housing or assign these duties to the Ministry of the City(i.e. Templarate).

Ok... You want to close down the Bards of Poets Circle... And get rid of Nenyuk and the Atrium? All of which are HUGELY integral to culture and society in various cities around the Known World. I've never been a Bard of Poets Circle or a member of Nenyuk or even been in the Atrium but I have seen many bards, many members of the atrium and more than a few Nenyuki in my time. They are thriving places to be, and the Atrium was actually player created as I understand it.

The purpose of such sweeping closures is simply 'consolidation'. I have no problem with any of the clans I'm suggesting be closed other than they spread out player and Imm focus in a way I think detracts from the living plotline of the world. Fleshing out the already indepth clans that exist is the greatest way to put everyone's fingers on the pulse of Zalanthas.

I disagree. Our playerbase grows on a daily basis by shutting down other options you do 'consolidate' most effectively, assuming half the playerbase doesn't leave because we just shut down all their favorite types of characters to play. However this doesn't mean the other places will be anymore 'fleshed out'. They already are. They dont make it into the code unless they have extensive documentation, internal politics and culture as well as a strong playerbase. As for 'Imm Focus' issues, we have tons of immortals and just took more on. As former staff at many places (MUDs and MUSHs alike) I have to tell you that putting more staffers on the same thing makes things a lot worse in most situations. Because then you get a lot of staff of the same rank squabbling over things or constantly checking with everyone else. It's like beuracracy to the Nth degree.

I'd rather see mantis, halfling and gith opened before these other clans actually.

As I recall the reason these are offlimits is that they are extremely difficult to RP. Mantis don't even think like humanoid creatures do and halfling life is very strenous RP. Gith are hated everywhere (this was covered in another thread) and are also very difficult to RP given their culture.

-Borsail and Tor are the upper echelon of Noble Houses in Allanak... The slaving House and the militant House..

Tor is not upper echelon. They're actually a Middle House.

Why thin the ranks of 'noble players' by keeping Oash open? It won't be closed forever, just leave it as a virtual presence for a year or two.

Most of the intrigue is stirred up by Oash. They are the 'political schemers' amongst schemers. These guys constantly piss the templarate off by what they do, meaning that they stir up and provide huge RP potential. Having been part of their various plots over my three or so year career as an Arm player, I can tell you that taking Oash out would create a massive RP vaccuum for many people.

The Blackwing already have an outpost and their own land, they're nice and established with a rich history dating back to the beginnings of Arm.

Just because the coded tribe has been around OOCly since Arm's earlier times doesn't mean its the oldest tribe. I believe there are several tribes in the game that are the same age if not older. As for rich histories and documentation or establishment, the two current D-Elf tribes have tremendous amounts of both.

Imagine if d-elf players had no other choice but Blackwing, a place in which people could actually LEARN how to properly play a d-elf.

I suspect you don't play Coded Tribal D-elves. This isn't meant as an insult, but just an observation since I've been in both of the other coded tribes and they already do very nicely what you're talking about.

Again a few years with no other nomadic human choice other than Muark and you'll find it breeding extremely good tribal players.

.

Actually, I think myself a pretty damned good RPer and I didn't get that way from having people to RP with. I got that way from having NOBODY to RP with. Solo-RP forced me to think how my character would react rather than how I want to react, which is often the first knee-jerk reaction in situations in the game that involve other PCs.

Wars and treaties people... The real kind.

Considering the plots I've been involved in recently in these 'empty' tribes that can't have the 'real kind' of treaties and wars... I'd say you're wrong. Dead wrong. The life for such characters is INCREDIBLY active and social, despite what you might think.

Bards can easily be absorbed by other houses while still maintaining a loose guild-like quality if they want to meet. The Atrium's servant training services can be absorbed by the Noble houses who were happily training their own servants before the Atrium opened.

Ok, bard's aren't really terribly profitable. No Merchant House would employ them en masse. The Poet's Circle is more of a community rather than a political house or a merchant industry. Now, I'm not saying Bards don't make money... I'm saying that they aren't a commodity to be bought and sold. As for the Atrium's continued existence... You seem to be thinking that Houses have the PCs available for training other PCs. Typically they do not, this is where the Atrium comes in very handily ooc. Nobles are very busy players as are Templars. By shoving more duties you make it so people don't want to play those positions anymore and Imms get buried in requests in paperwork.

We're freeing up players and Imms alike to inject their creativity and time collectively. Imagine the possibilities...

But we really aren't, we're forcing more workload on the players in positions of power and cramming imms together on projects where their creative styles will clash. Creativity is not a group effort, it's an individual thing.

What say the rest of you?

In conclusion I say no. I encourage other long-time and short-time players alike to stand against this idea. It will, in my opinion, destroy the individuality allowed in Armageddon and cram players together in single locations like cattle cars, giving them nothing unique to do. If all the choice I had was the Byn, Merchant Houses or Noble Houses and maybe a D-Elf tribe which I despise the idea of playing in OOCly, I would very soon leave Arm behind for good. That is one change I would not sit through and adjust to. This is not a code tweak, this is a full fledged surgery on the mud's In Game cultures and groups.

If this seems harsh or spiteful, I assure you it's not intended to be so and I do not intend to flame anyone. So understand this is just a counterpoint to something I see as extremely detrimental.

EDIT: Fixed some quotes.

[Pungee]

On an additional note:


I've experienced far more RP in these 'isolated' clans and groups than I ever have being a Bynner or a member of some merchant house. No offense to Tlaloc meant. Just that, to me, those isolated tribes and such out in the hinterlands seem to draw more intrigue and plots.

[John]

*double post*

[John]

I agree a lot with what Pungee said. So I'm not going to repeat what he said.

1.) Close down Oash

No, no, no. Oash regularly hires magickers, I would HATE to see that gone. Playing a magicker is hard enough. Getting rid of Oash would make it harder.

Remove nomad from the subguilds and bendune from caravan guide, giving them spearcrafting instead.

Why? Should we also remove the D-Elf option and make it possible to only play Blackwing D-Elves? I like being able to make up my own tribe, whether it be human or elven. Human tribals and Desert elves offer a vastly different mindset and experience. I've never played in any coded tribes, but I've dabled at ones I've made for my own characters. It's fun. It allows for the most unique experience I've ever had in Arm. And it's damn  hard too. Something I enjoy.

Close down Nenyuk

I've rarely seen Nenyuk have a lot of players at one time. So it's hardly a drain on the PC population and it does provide a good service to players. If the point is to make clans more populated, Nenyuk isn't going to help or hinder this.

Bards of Poets Circle

I rarely play in the north, but one day I would love to play a bard of Poets Circle. I would be very dissapointed to see this option taken away from me. It also stresses the status of bards up north, as opposed to down south.

the Atrium

When I was a newbie, a player took me in and taught me how to be a noble's servant. Without that player it would have been difficult for me to learn. The Atrium makes it easier for people to learn how to play a servant.

One of the Nenyuki Imms can make a PC representative to handle housing

I'd rather see Imms working on (IMO) more important things.

But I'm of a mind to say these things should happen when the playerbase is far heftier than it is now.

The playerbase is getting larger and larger then when I began playing 2 years ago. Yet I don't remember people being so adamant about closing clans back then. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with wanting to close clans, I just find the observation funny and interesting

I'd rather see mantis, halfling and gith opened before these other clans actually.

All of which are iso clans, yet most of the clans you want closed are city-based clans. I'd rather see city-based clans remain open then more iso clans. City based clans allow for more interaction, iso clans, well don't. I'd love to see halflings open up, gith as well. But I don't want to see it at the detriment of city-clans.

-Borsail and Tor are the upper echelon of Noble Houses in Allanak... The slaving House and the militant House.. In the North you have Tenneshi as the militant House and Winrothol as the slaving House... Nice balance there I'd say.

Tenneshi isn't a militant House from what I'm seeing in the docs. I haven't played a Tenneshi of course, but it doesn't seem to be anything like Tor. Lyksae and Winrothol appear more Tor-like then Tenneshi.

Bards can easily be absorbed by other houses while still maintaining a loose guild-like quality if they want to meet.

I disagree that would be possible. Often Houses are against each other (such as merchant houses or noble houses), they would feel the loyalty they have to their House and be against people of other Houses, including other bards.

All IMO.

[Quirk]

Tor are a Middle House, not an Upper House, and if you were chopping a House, it should be the House to get the chop over Oash. Oash is arguably the most worthwhile of the Southern Houses, being designed from the start to be heavy in intrigue.

Better still for the game would be to stop people hiring vast numbers into these Houses; you end up with a lot of bored House guards doing little but spar and watching their days played counter tick upwards. A noble and an aide or two for each House and perhaps one old and skilled PC guard should be sufficient; hiring every newbie who passes is just crass.

Have you played a d-elf recently? The Soh Lanah Kah, last I was there, had an excellent crop of RPers. Seeing the odd twinky d-elf who's somehow got one karma and is abusing it doesn't mean that the standard of RP out there is somehow slipping.

I'm somewhat worried about this "consolidation" idea, too. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you want to scoop people up into the Noble Houses to sit and idle there. The big clans as they are are static. They are the antithesis of conflict. They are, IMO, stifling the game. Pouring more players into them seems a hideously bad idea to me. Why on earth would you want to get rid of the places where players can still decide the relationships between clans, such as in tribal lands?

Quirk

[Angela Christine]

4.) Close down Nenyuk, Bards of Poets Circle and the Atrium.  One of the Nenyuki Imms can make a PC representative to handle housing or assign these duties to the Ministry of the City(i.e. Templarate).

Ok... You want to close down the Bards of Poets Circle... And get rid of Nenyuk and the Atrium? All of which are HUGELY integral to culture and society in various cities around the Known World. I've never been a Bard of Poets Circle or a member of Nenyuk or even been in the Atrium but I have seen many bards, many members of the atrium and more than a few Nenyuki in my time. They are thriving places to be, and the Atrium was actually player created as I understand it.

And from what I've seen these are high-interaction roles.  

Many PCs join the Atrium on a temporary basis.  The make friends, get training, and then move onto another clan.  You wind up with noble employees that don't embarass the House, and that come with a network of contacts in other organizations.  Sounds good to me.

The Poet's circle seems similar to the Elementalist Temples in Allanak, in some ways.  You go there for training, but belonging to a circle doesn't prevent you from being hired by another clan too.  By there very nature bards can't go hide their entire careers, they have to get out and perform in public to make a living.  The circles simply provide a structure to help a newbie bard integrate into the society.

Nenyuk isn't exactly a drain on the player base.  What is the highest population this clan has ever had, two or three?  If you are lucky you get a northern representative and southern representative.  I once saw a PC slave of Nenyuk, and another time (much later) I saw a PC guard.  A big thumbs down on having Templars rent real-estate, they have their hands full without having to take scum around to see the selection of vacant hovels.

Why thin the ranks of 'noble players' by keeping Oash open? It won't be closed forever, just leave it as a virtual presence for a year or two.

Most of the intrigue is stirred up by Oash. They are the 'political schemers' amongst schemers. These guys constantly piss the templarate off by what they do, meaning that they stir up and provide huge RP potential. Having been part of their various plots over my three or so year career as an Arm player, I can tell you that taking Oash out would create a massive RP vaccuum for many people.

Also Oash is suppose to be one of the most magicker-friendly clans in the known world.  Mages have enough trouble getting hired, don't take away one of the very few organizations that will hire them.

If I had to ditch a southern noble house I'd give Borsail the axe, but that's just me.  How often do you see slaving runs and slave auctions?  I've seen one slave auction, selling a single mul slave, in the last 2-3 years.  There might have been a few more, but not many.  The occasional transfer of PC slaves could easily be happened by animated NPCs.  Luckily I don't have to ditch a southern noble house, because I have no authority.  


AC

[spawnloser]

Everyone has already said everything necessary about Oash and the other noble houses.  I'll leave those alone.  On to other things...

2.) Close down all the d-elf coded tribes and re-open Blackwing. If someone wants to play a d-elf, they play a Blackwing, period. The other d-elf tribes can have virtual and npc presence.

Why should Blackwing be reopened instead of one of these closed down?  That is what I wonder most about this statement.  Both of these clans are quite rich in development and quite different.  If there is going to be a double handful of city clans, why not at least two d.elf clans, as well?  Give people something to choose between instead of railroading into one clan or no clan...because a LOT more people will go no over the only other option sometimes.

3.) Close down the Anyali and the 'tribal people' section. You want to play a human tribal, play a Muark. D-elf tribal, see #2.

Okay...see my comment about having at least two options for non-city-based people above.

Remove nomad from the subguilds and bendune from caravan guide, giving them spearcrafting instead.

Uh, why should these be removed?  That would make it so that NOONE could be any sort of tribal and have the language to back it up UNLESS they were from one of the coded tribes.  That is, again, railroading and severely limiting options.  Yes, you'd get what you want, which is people consolidating, but they'd be irritated and angry, or just leave, as someone else has mentioned already.

4.) Close down Nenyuk, Bards of Poets Circle and the Atrium.  One of the Nenyuki Imms can make a PC representative to handle housing or assign these duties to the Ministry of the City(i.e. Templarate).

So...you want to make the Templars become landlords too?  First, from an OOC perspective, they are busy enough leading the clans that they are in charge of (Militia and Legions) and don't need any more.  Giving it to a noble would be the next down the line...but they are busy leading their own clan as well.  Nenyuk, now, they have a few people tops, they don't hire a bunch of people and that means that an IMM doesn't have to do it.  The Nenyuki PCs ARE the PC representatives that you're thinking of.

Bard's of Poets Circle and Atrium?  These are centers of culture and are important enough because of that.  The Atrium is the closest thing to a newbie school this mud has...and needs for some people, trust me.  Poet Circle, on the other hand, is a clan...kinda.  Most of the people that are Poet Circle go and join another clan as well anyway, so what's the problem there?

As far as the services being absorbed...I already said why Nenyuk's shouldn't be, but for the other two, I can see your point.  However, if that is the only logic we use in deciding, we should shut down Tor as well, because the Militia and other nobles in Allanak could easily train their own people too.

In summation, I see where you're trying to go, and it is a commendable goal...but I don't think that just closing clans is the way to go about it.

The purpose of such sweeping closures is simply 'consolidation'. I have no problem with any of the clans I'm suggesting be closed other than they spread out player and Imm focus in a way I think detracts from the living plotline of the world. Fleshing out the already indepth clans that exist is the greatest way to put everyone's fingers on the pulse of Zalanthas.

You're talking about closing a bunch of clans that already exist...how is that going to put anyone's 'fingers on the pulse of Zalanthas' as you've said?  It is taking away some of the truly awesome things out there for you to come across and interact with.

It's great to make up your own clan and rituals and stuff, but there are already some badass clans in existence that simply need more players in them, performing the rituals and stuff that already exist. Strong populations within a tight group of clans means more colorful political struggle and interaction on a broader, global scale. Ultimately I think it means more fun for everyone involved.

Closing clans will encourage more tribal people to go clanless, so I don't see them learning more about these clans when they don't join.  Personally, there are clans that you have listed for tribals, that if closed, would mean that if I wanted to go tribal of that type, I would go clanless instead.  Options, my man, options.

That's not to say that these clans can't be openned and others invented.. But I'm of a mind to say these things should happen when the playerbase is far heftier than it is now.  I'd rather see mantis, halfling and gith opened before these other clans actually. I could see these options opening if there was a hefty population of players in all the open clans.

As John said, the playerbase keeps growing...but as AC said, the clans you're saying you'd rather be open are so much more ISO than the clans you want to close, which would be counterproductive.  Personally, I would love to play a mantis or halfling.  I love their culture and mentality from Dark Sun...but I would still rather see the clans we have open and running now run until the staff feels those could be opened for players.

As far as the comments on desert elves, you can learn in the newer clans too.  Just because they didn't exist OOC doesn't mean they aren't as old as Blackwing IG.  In fact, they are probably just as old.  Tribes don't form out of nowhere, you know.  There is IMM support and other players in both of these, so you should have just as easy a time learning from them as from the same people playing a Blackwing elf.

On the Muark comments, yes, it is a deep tribe and all that other hoo-ha, but they aren't the only tribals out there and forcing someone to play that or nothing will only teach them how to play a Muark.  You can learn more by playing a Muark and then an Anyali.


-Nenyuk, Bards of Poet's Circle, the Atrium, Very cool clans but really the services they provide could easily be absorbed by other clans. The Templarate of each city could assume Nenyuk's housing responsibilities. Bards can easily be absorbed by other houses while still maintaining a loose guild-like quality if they want to meet. The Atrium's servant training services can be absorbed by the Noble houses who were happily training their own servants before the Atrium opened.

-We're freeing up players and Imms alike to inject their creativity and time collectively. Imagine the possibilities...

I enjoy diversity, I'm just starting to feel as though what's here already needs to be colored more brightly.... and to do that we need to consolidate by trimming the fat.

What say the rest of you?[/quote]

[My 2 sids]

As stated in my other thread, close down the merchant houses.  Except, Nenyuk... in which house... there needs to be many many many more pcs so SOMEONE may be around when needed  :wink:

[SwanSwanHummingbird]

Salarr and Kadius would be good candidates to merge into one hunting/crafting/merchanty clan.  That's about the only one I can think of that would be okay to get rid of.

Definately not Nenyuk, it's only like 2 PCs, and it's necessary.  It was created in the first place so the Templars -wouldn't have- to handle housing, and so people could actually get a house if they wanted one.  If it doesn't work that way, it's because there aren't enough people in it, not too many.

Getting rid of the Atrium just seems wrong since it was player-created.  If I made a clan, I would be really upset to see it junked like that.

Possibly only having one d-elf tribe isn't a bad idea.  I don't know, since I've never been in any d-elf clan before.  I don't think people who haven't been in a certain clan should be able to call for a scrap.

[Tamarin]

The one your forgot to mention is independents.  As a moderately experienced player, I've become fed up with clan antics, and as such, have made been pulled towards surviving on my own, which is going quite well.  I imagine I'm not the only one who had this sort of shift as well.  To be honest, I've had the best RP with this current character than any of my previous characters, and its maybe only 4 days worth of playtime old.

I really don't see any point to consolidating any of these.  As I said in another post, people will naturally draw to the popular clans as they go through periods of "coolness".  For a while, it might be really interesting to be an Oashi spy, and then the trend will shift to a Borsail slave hunter or a Scorpion wannabe, etc.  Basically, the PC population consolidates itself.  Cutting out clans would only hurt this natural process.

[Crazy Hakhim]

Personally, I voted no, for one, simple reason -
I'm not an experienced person, meaning that I don't really know which clan is more or less integral to the world, or which clans do what, or even the names of most desert elves clans, but I do know that one of my main reasons to preferring this MUD to other ones is that this one enables almost complete freedom, and closing clans for practical reason, and I'm talking about the bad sides of practicality here, would pretty much ruin it. I think diversity makes things more interesting, and furthermore, the more out of a body you are, the more you have the feeling you can infulence things, which is also a really great thing to have in any game, and one that this one sports specifically.

[Rindan]

I agree in principle with what is being stated as an alternative, but not in practice or the way described.  It isn't so much as consolidation that is the target, but high player density acting on a scale that matters to those players.  The problem right now is that if you take your stereotypical noble house, each rank up to the head PC noble at the time has only two or so people in it.  Even at the lowest levels player density is very low.  The result is a drain on inter-organization conflict.

One of the more amusing times I have had as a player was when the Byn was filled to the brim.  The Byn is a pretty simple organization as far as organizations go, but despite this because of the player density it was the most intriguing one I had ever been in do to inter-organization conflict.  There were three or four full squads each with at least 5 active players and hordes of runners.  It was amazing to see conflict blossom inside of the clan.  Internal struggles were constant and daily.  The drama was always at its peak.  You just couldn't help it with so many players trying to inhabit the same space.  Personalities had to clash, and further, it was okay to clash because pissing off the guy above you didn't spell doom.  You could piss off the guy above you and make friends with the guy parallel to him.  It wasn't like in smaller clans where if your superior decides that he/she doesn't like you, you are screwed.  The densely populated clan functioned far more like a clan should.  I personally think a bunch of smaller clans stuffed into the same area would have the same effect.  So long as people are stepping on each other and in each other's way, I think conflict can't help but be bred.

The problem of course is that in order to get people in each other's way you need to cut down on diversity.  Anyone can see the imms trying out different balances with this diversity/density ratio.  You can't play any old iso-race, but at the same time you can play a desert elf stuffed away in the table lands.  Increase diversity too much and you risk players thinning out, getting bored, and leaving.  Increase density too much and you risk players getting bored with their options and leaving.  It is a tricky balancing act and Armageddon has tried out a range of options since I have been playing.

Personally, I would like to see a shift to increase both density and diversity by trying to move clans into more direct conflict with each other.  If two clans are directly and constantly conflicting with each other, then they are increasing density.  Of course, this is only true for as many people as the conflict is meaningful.  For instance, Kurac and Kadius might very well be conflicting with each other, and at their top levels they might be constantly plotting and acting against each other.  Of course, this means nothing of Kurac recruit #22 never sees any of it.  The effect is that high level plotting means very little other then the occasional odd ball mission.  As far as recruit #22 is concerned, the concerns of Kadians and t he constant conflict is a million miles away.

Now, take two small rival mercenary groups in Allanak operating out of the same bar.  The two are in direct competition.  While there might be high level plotting, there would also be a great deal of low level conflict.  The conflict might simply be a few nasty words to between rivals or drunken bar fight.  It could be as dramatic as two lovers from the different groups hooking up much to everyone else's discontent.  Whatever the case, because they constantly see the people they are conflicting with and have the ability to have a hand in the conflict, even if it is just the occasional drunken brawl or verbal shouting matches over a new recruit, the player density will seem thicker to these people.

Player density really is just the number of people you interact with.  The more people you have meaningful interactions with, the more dense the game feels.  5 clans of three people each all living and competing in the same space is going to feel more dense then two clans of eight in separate cities with conflict only flowing at the upper most levels.

So, I agree player density is the goal, but I think we need to be more inventive about how we get it.  Yes, obviously we can just stuff more people into the same clan, but I don't think that is going to have the desired effect.  Player density is number of meaningful interactions with others.  Ways to increase the number of meaningful interactions has to go above having lots of people in the same place.  The Bard's Barrel might have 20 PCs in it, but that will mean nothing if you are the only half-breed in there sitting alone, surrounded by nobels and aids.  You might as well be in the middle of the desert.

[crymerci]

While I understand and sympathize with the original poster's dilemma (the sparseness of some clans) I really don't think closing clans is the answer to the problem.

What I have observed is that there are always clans which are sparsely populated, and clans which are overflowing.  Generally speaking, this fluctuates: i.e. a clan that has 8 PCs today might have only 2 in another few months, or vice versa.  And then there are some clans that always seem to have a steady population: Kurac and the Byn to name two.

It's my opinion that the population of a clan does not depend on its history, the number of imms working on it, or the number of competing clans.  It's my opinion that the population of a clan depends on the characters already within the clan.  If I am playing a Bynner and I notice that Borsail has a couple of great players, I am more likely to get my character recruited into that clan, if I can.  If, however, Borsail has been through 4 nobles in 2 months and only has a solitary aide PC who hasn't been paid in a year, then I am obviously going to avoid being recruited by Borsail, and stay in the Byn or join another organization.  Yeah, it's OOC.  But we have to enjoy what we play or else why play it?

Considering how much we have grown in playerbase, I do not think that the few extra clans that have opened in the past year or two are excessive.  In fact, I believe that clans are no more or less populated than they have ever been, in general.  If anything, I would say the number of independents has grown more, and especially in the matter of independent tribals (or maybe there were always that many tribals, I just couldn't tell from their accents ).  But, I think that they add flavor to the game without detracting from what is already here.

That said, I tend to agree with Pungee, John, Quirk, AC, spanwloser, and those who have defended specific clans.  I can't agree with cutting a single one of the named clans.

[Vox]

Well, as I said... It was a dramatic idea

The funny thing is that I don't disagree with the negative responses. I think the clans I suggested closing are very cool... and it wouldn't be forever, just a couple years to redistribute player density. That's the only reason right there, nobody is questioning the depth or RP potential latent within these clans.

So, if like a few people above, you feel that closing ANY currently open clan is wrong why not suggest other ways to shift or grow player density. The essence of my original post is all about concentration/interaction, and I'd rather see a grander scale of it taking place rather than the two PCs in Nenyuk enjoying some form of indepth, internal House plot. I'd rather the people focusing on that indepth plot and taking care of it, invest their time into a clan with a heftier playerbase to allow more people to take part in it.

The d-elf tribes are great, and yes I have played many a d-elf in my time... The reason I say Blackwing over the two player-created tribes is that it doesn't choose one over the other. Neither is better or worse, they're both awesome. Blackwing is just the neutral choice. *shrug*

Anyway, I'm not going to re-argue my points but I will say that I was wrong to lump Tor into the upper echelon, what I was trying to illustrate was the comparison to the Northern nobility. Yes, Tor is a 'middle House'.

This was not meant as an attack on these clans, it's just one of those crazy ideas that just might work if given a chance  :shock: You disagree? Fine, illustrate another way we can effectively thicken the playerbase and I'll jump on your bandwagon furiously beating a small drum to rally support.

So much for the four am inspirado :twisted:
Thanks to those who actually saw the essence of the post.

[Marauder Moe]

Fine, illustrate another way we can effectively thicken the playerbase and I'll jump on your bandwagon furiously beating a small drum to rally support.

Recruit new players.  

Tell your friends, bother them incessantly until they join the wonder that is Armageddon MUD.  If every play brought even just one other player to the game the population would double.  Could you imagine that?  100-150 people at peak hours.  It'd make ever day be like HRPT day!

[EvilRoeSlade]

I have another idea, yes.  Close no clans.  I sincerely doubt that closing a few clans would cause players to leave the game, except maybe the type that always plays the same character type to the point where other players who have no correspondance with them can immediately identify their new characters.  However, there is no good way to choose which clans to close because with every clan comes a group of people that will argue why the clan is needed.  Some of these arguements are merely rhetoric that come from players who have never even played in the clans they are arguing to keep, but other points are indeed valid.

So how about this idea instead.  Close no clans, just shut down various factions within clans.  I'm talking about guards, for one.  In essence, the function of a guard is boring, lonely, and performed more competently and reliably by an NPC.  If a guard can indeed do something other than that, then it makes more sense to simply hire another more specialized person to do that role and leave a guard to guarding.  I wouldn't suggest abolishing the role entirely.  We could either leave guards to join clans with an obvious martial bent, or allow each clan a handful of old, trusted veterans.  It isn't necessary or realistic for any noble or merchant house to have a "recruit to the max" policy, and from my experience, most nobles and merchants have better things to do than keep their useless bagagge entertained.

On the same note, I don't think that hunters clanned in merchant houses are necessary.  This is for the simple reason that it doesn't seem realistic to give somebody free food and water, plus a respectable monthly salary which totals to a value far greater than the materials they bring in for you, when you can just pay independant hunters by the hide and let them worry about feeding themselves.

I suggest these changes mostly because I don't like to see the vast majority of the playerbase living boring and unrisky lives.  I'd like to see more independants and "real" commoners.  If this somehow makes even more people play in houses, then I'm out.

[crymerci]

Don't anyone die of shock or anything, but I agree with ERS.  I can see the point in keeping Kuraci soldiers, and Tors if they also serve as instructors in the Academy (or are being groomed for that), but otherwise PC guards often have a frustrating existence, I think.  If there is just one or two they can't always find someone to train with, and if there are more there is not enough to keep them busy outside of training.

I don't know that I agree with completely closing the guard forces; in some cases that would do, but there are times when a noble needs a loyal person who is well-trained, more polished than a mercenary, and not an NPC.  Maybe limiting the numbers would do the trick, but again, you run the risk of boredom on the PC guard's part.

Perhaps what is really needed is a rethinking of the entire role of "guard".  Personally, if I were playing a noble, I would want a guard who could also serve as an aide, or vice versa.  A bodyguard is more than a simple swordarm, IMO.  This is someone who knows their employer's habits and shortcomings, and is sometimes privy to sensitive information.  If you consolidate the PC guardforce with the aides, you free up a lot of players, while still filling what needs there are.

If you do this, you no longer have guards soloplaying their training because no one else is logged on and they have a schedule they have to stick to.  Nor do you have guards who must always stand mutely beside their noble's chair and stifle yawns.  Nor do you have 10 guards who at least have someone to train with, but nothing else to do besides training.  In addition, the people who typically play martial roles will be more concentrated in places like the Byn, Kurac, Tor Academy, and the city militias.

But maybe I'm wrong.  I've never played a guard so I'm not passionate about their niche in the world.

[Anonymous]

ERS' idea has merit.  It would force nobles to make contacts and work with other groups to get seedier things done instead of recruiting from within their ranks.

The trouble, though, is one that was the case when I first started playing.  Kadius in the south had 2 very active merchant/assistant type PCs, an active Kadian sergeant, and many hunters.  While that's all well and good, strength in PC numbers invariably translates into an unrealistic amount of in game power.

Take Blackmoon, probably my favorite clan of all time.  Their numbers, from what I recall, were in the hundreds.  Mere hundreds.  Yet they kept cities with populations in the hundreds of thousands in a state of concern and/or panic.  Because they were such a fun clan, with some truly uber PCs, I think their power was perceived to be much, much more than it was in reality.

So, if Borsail, Tor, Oash, Tenneshi and Winrothol are reduced to being nothing more than nobles and advisors/aides/assistants from a PC standpoint, I wonder how that would effect the actions of other players who begin to think in terms of pure PC strength and not true NPC and VNPC strength.  I mean, when's the last time a VNPC hunted you down for breaking into the compound?

[EvilRoeSlade]

The way I see it is that it will put most clans on level footing, and thus cause people to look beyond player numbers.  In any event, there is no excuse for acting just on the basis of PC numbers.  That is twinkish behavior and I think we should simply stamp it out rather than try to accomodate it.

[Carnage]

Why even bother having so many nobles around if you're eliminating the guards to interact with? Second, why would they even realistically need an aide if they don't have to worry about recruiting, scheduling meetings with recruiters, and paying guards or anyone else? All nobles would end up doing is talking with other nobles or commoners if they're Tuluki. The point of their creation would be completely moot: to provide entertainment, opportunities, and jobs for other characters.

We could either leave guards to join clans with an obvious martial bent, or allow each clan a handful of old, trusted veterans.

And how will each of these clans get these 'trusted veterans'? By sending them to a year of the Byn/Tor Academy? The most trusted guard is likely one that is going to have been in the house for quite a number of years and started out as a completely green recruit. If you want these roles to be special app, then these guards are going to miss out on development and get an unfair advantage over everyone else.

On the same note, I don't think that hunters clanned in merchant houses are necessary. This is for the simple reason that it doesn't seem realistic to give somebody free food and water, plus a respectable monthly salary which totals to a value far greater than the materials they bring in for you, when you can just pay independant hunters by the hide and let them worry about feeding themselves.

Independant hunters don't have as much loyalty as one that's been in the house for a bit, which can cause strife between the house if Kadius suddenly buys materials at a higher price than Salarr so they can open their new fashion line. Food and water, as well as a salary, is a great incentive to hunters as well as being able to go out with hunters from the house. Not only that, but hunters can rise to higher positions. Who's to say that Green won't someday become a sergeant of Salarr and lead a group of Salarri hunters on a bahamet hunt? Sergeant Green makes more money and the house has an easier time getting bahamet shells with his leadership and men rather than trying to organize a bunch of ragtag hunters together.

Next, who's to say that hunters don't break even for the house with all the materials they bring in? These hunters also likely bring in various meats for the cooks. The house's only expenses may be just for water and a salary for the hunters. A hunter may rather stay with the house and make less 'sid than on his own because of safety and working with fellow hunters, a discount on weapons, the respect gained from a position with such a house, and the opportunity to rise to a higher position within the house.

I suggest these changes mostly because I don't like to see the vast majority of the playerbase living boring and unrisky lives.

Obviously people are enjoying it if these roles are being filled up. Second, almost every character I've had in a noble house has been quite entertaining and enjoyable. Other people generally seem to find them enjoyable as well if they are playing in noble houses. Other players know what they enjoy and generally go for those roles.

I'd like to see more independants and "real" commoners.

'Real' commoners are generally piss poor and have incredibly boring lives, such as waking up, doing menial work like crafting over and over again, selling the items, then sleeping and repeating for a week until they have enough extra coin to afford a drink or time off to sit at a bar. This sort of thing would detract even more from the game than letting people play noble house guards.

[Angela Christine]

What there is a shortage of is strong leaders.  People who know how to make a group fun and productive.  This takes both OOC and IC skills, being a totally buff 40 day warrior doesn't mean that you will be a good leader.  A unit of guards or hunters milling around with no leadership is dull, and a pointless drain on the playerbase.


Only recruit into the guard/hunter ranks of clans when that clan has a strong military leader PC (NPC leaders don't count, because they aren't around much).  Not a noble or merchant with only the briefest interest in the military aspects, but someone who can be trusted to keep the PC unit alive and active.  When that PC eventually dies or leaves the clan,  the guard/hunter segment of the clan may slowly shut down until another skillfull PC leader emerges.

How do you get a trusted PC leader when you don't have any PCs in the unit?  Allow people that want to be a Sergeant or Luitenant of X to special app for the role if there is no other reasonable way to approach it.  They create a character who has been a low ranking member of the organization for a few years, and has recently been promoted to Sergeant or officer status.  The nobles/merchants didn't know him, because he was low-ranking, and who pays attention to the names of Wyvern Private #213?  The reason this is a special app is because your history says you have had a specific relationship with the clan for a long time, so you need the approval of the clan imm, and also because you will need a moderate skill boost to back up that history.  Not anything massive, but you don't want your ten-year vetern getting beaten up by a new recruit.  Give him the sort of skill levels you would expect from the average person who survives their recruit year in the Byn.  Give them the skills you would expect from a reasonable person who had been playing that class for 3-10 days, depending on the role and background.  (Obviously it would be helpful if the player has previously gotten a 10 character the natural way, so they know how that goes).  

You've got your dynamic leader.  He recruits a small busy group of soldiers/guards/hunters/assassins, and everyone is happy.



In merchant houses, things have to be in balance to work.  If you have crafters but no hunters or scavengers, then you have whiny crafters with nothing to do.  If you have hunters and scavengers but no crafters, then you get a store room full of crafting supplies and no one to use them.  It is OOCly disheartening to collect things that you know are only going to be junked to clear out space, with the  rationalization the virtual crafters used the stuff.  If you don't have crafters you don't need collectors, and if you don't have collectors then your crafters will have nothing to do so you don't need crafters.  One without the other is sad and useless.


AC

[EvilRoeSlade]

When that PC eventually dies or leaves the clan,  the guard/hunter segment of the clan may slowly shut down until another skillfull PC leader emerges.

That's the problem right there.  Skilled leaders don't last forever, and quite frankly, they're too rare.  I think this is more of a comment on the role than the playerbase.  Time and time again I've seen guards in noble and merchant positions join, fail to do anything unreasonable that will get themselves killed, and eventually log on less and less, fading out of existance and thus failing to be effective leaders regardless of whether or not they are promoted.

My solution is consolidating the system, not making it work.  The problem remains that even if we specially apply leaders into position, they still won't have a sufficient playerbase to work with.  Too often I have witnessed excellent leaders that have been shot in the foot because whenever they organize an RPT, nobody logs on.  For want of interaction they recruit as many people as possible, which only makes the situation worse.

[Frustrated]

It doesn't do alot of good when you've been trying to be an active leader and keep people involved but, when the only thing your allowed to do or have any authority over is the normal day to day hohum things...and to do otherwise without permission means punishment.

It's extremely disheartening to try and try but never get anywhere, I'm to the point now where I don't want to try anymore...just wait it out until I can get my pc the hell out of Dodge or it dies, whichever comes first.

I think my current pc will be the last time I ever play in a coded clan, it's had some good times...and I've tried to create more for others but to no avail.

It really sucks to have to say this...but it's just how I feel.

I believe this is the main reason people in these roles just start logging in less frequently...eventually...all you do, is the same things over and over and over and over again with no hope of change as long as you are with the clan.

I hope this doesn't come across the wrong way, I wouldn't have even posted this but it seems relevant to the topic.