The Ecology of Zalanthas

[Comrade Canadia]

Kay... uh, what I was talking about here was sort of building up a more visibly functioning ecology in the area.  Not coding in virtual poisonous bugs.  You can whack off all you want about 'harshness' and how not-harsh creatures are stupid, but... uh, nothing says that prey doesn't have to be dangerous.  

What I'd like to see is just some sort of foodchain present in most areas.  The littlest things can eat these virtual bugs... but what do the big things eat?  I refuse to believe that an entire species of insect's primary food source is T'Zai Byn members.  I think the desert would be a lot richer if just a -couple- of creatures were added to the mix.  Maybe some burrowing animals, lizards, hell - if you want poison, create a creature with poisonous spines or something that's non-aggro.  What I'm specifically referring to here is the Red Desert, but I'm sure a number of other areas could benefit from this.  I'm not talking a complete overhaul just... y'know, a bit of an ecology.  Give the scrabs and beetles something to eat.  How the hell did this get sidetracked into poisonous vnpc bugs, incidentally?

-Der Comrade

[jhunter]

Because noone wants to see these little things that are food for the other beasts just become things any newbie can walk out and hunt down with no danger to them.

[mansa]

Because noone wants to see these little things that are food for the other beasts just become things any newbie can walk out and hunt down with no danger to them.

I thought I'd just quote that.



I would LOVE to see the world of Armageddon more fleshed out with the whole ecosystems.  I'd love to wander the deserts, and watch from a distance a Raptor hunt out for it's prey, and take it down, and watch the beautiful form it has, as it stalks the poor beast.  I would love to see which sort of animal a Gortok eats for breakfast, and watch the pack encircle and eat it.

It's not about being able to hunt 'newbie' beasts.  It's about fleshing out the world.  Who cares if the little beast can die in one shot?  It's not important to the economy, and it a minor point.  It's like complaining that you lose movement points while trying to flee from a soldier, when you are stealing a sword from the salarr shop.

[Comrade Canadia]

So, by your argument, the Red Desert shouldn't have a functioning ecology because newbies shouldn't be able to kill the 'prey' animals?

Who says they have to be easy for newbies to kill?  

Make 'em flee, hide, poisonous, too big and mean for newbies to kill but not aggressive... there's tons of options.  Try to catch a rabbit with a sword.  It's not easy!  It's a fantasy world, and so creatures can have all sorts of neat defense mechanisms.  Creatures already do IRL.  

-Der Comrade

[cisalus]

Comrade Canadia is right... We're not talking about poisonous creatures, we're talking about a more complicated ecology system.

I, personally, play Arm because:

1) it is one of the most intricate muds
2) it has some damn cool descriptions, areas, creatures, etc to look at.

Now.. 2... Armageddon DOES have some awesome creature descriptions, and I /think/ what Comrade Canadia is trying to say is that if we add more to the ecology, then it will be even more interesting to 'explore', and no, I'm not getting into explore AND h&s, just explore.

Think of it this way.. If there were more animals, and PCs and Players alike knew absolutely nothing about them, would some of the Players, though possibly OOC because the creatures would have been their ICly forever, make their PCs go check out some new rainbow lizard that bears a skin so flashy that even Tek would shit his pants for it?

I dunno.. Just my thoughts

[jhunter]

I don't think any of you understand what I'm saying...-I too- would love to see full ecosystems and such.

I would be afraid that having alot of little things all over the place would encourage those h&s players that come to Arm from elsewhere, to do so here...and if none of you think that it would, your dead wrong.

The reason we don't have so much of a problem with it now is because those who go out, h&s style killing things...usually die, get frustrated and quit.
Which, if that's all they are here for..doesn't bother me one damned bit.

[mansa]

I think the reason we don't see it now is because nobody's attempted it.  Hence, this discussion will bring about good points, different aspects that people haven't thought about, script ideas for bored immortals, and everything else.

I wish there was a way to observe things, without using hide / scan skills.  I think scan should be a skill that a subclass should be able to get.

[EvilRoeSlade]

How the hell did this get sidetracked into poisonous vnpc bugs, incidentally?

Because they are a part of the ecology that would change the dynamic by being coded in.

It sounds like you want a bunch of 2 hit point little critters that don't do anything.  I just don't think they necessarily need to be coded unless they do something.

[EvilRoeSlade]

...Don't you think there's enough crazy, deadly shit in the Tablelands already?

No.

So now are we going to have random scripts along the lines of "You find an oasis!"? I don't see why a ranger should have a greater chance of randomly stumbling upon an oasis. If anything, there could be clues in the hunt skill, but not just a 'RANGER ONLY RANGER ONLY' red flag flying over crap like that.

Not a random script.  I'm talking about say... a place where you can forage for roots readily, or something.  I don't really care what it is.  There would be nothing random about it, you'd just have to brave the poisonous bugs to get there.

And making them poisoned is going to slow them down from spamriding to find shelter, a friend, or a poison cure?

How're you going to feel about this great idea when every outdoor character just makes sure to carry poison cures?

I don't think my idea will increase the amount of twinks, but of course twinks will always find there way around things.  Nonetheless, I don't care.  Nor do I care if people carry poison cures to avoid it.  In fact, that's the POINT.  I didn't suggest this as a way to kill players, just as a treachery that a player can find a solution to.

[Lazloth]

There would be nothing random about it, you'd just have to brave the poisonous bugs to get there.

Where did this come from?  Are you a big peyote fan or something?

Why don't you just make use of emote or ask Bhag to zap you with poison periodically?

[jhunter]

I wish there was a way to observe things, without using hide / scan skills. I think scan should be a skill that a subclass should be able to get.

I agree, just so long as the cap is much lower on it.

[SpyGuy]

I always thought guards should get a low-capped scan skill.  As it is now they're useless to guard a gate or the like from hidden opponents rather then having some small ability to catch crappy thieves and assassins.

[Anarchy]

despite there not being many creatures that are poisonous, both commonly known in Armageddon, represented in the NPC population, or even on Earth. Even more so, most critters in real life that are poisonous usually don't have deadly toxins to humans, or have fangs that are too weak to puncture human skin.

Clearly you haven't been to Australia. Amercia is a happy bunny love land (its why they seek out trouble elsewhere) But Australia is, in my mind Arm's RL equal. Lots of deadly little animals, pretty much every third animal in australia can kill you, be it a Brown Snake, Copperhead, Death Adder, Red-Bellied Black Snake, Taipan Snake, Tiger Snake,(there are a hundred or so more snakes, but i cant list them all) a Paralysis Tick, a red back spider, a funnel web spider, hell even the cute platypus produces one of the most excruciating venoms known to man, and thats not even a complete list of Australian animals with venom hell, pretty much the only critter with deadly poison but cant puncture human skin is the daddy long-legs.- Then you have animals that can kill you due to their size - razor back boars, red kangaroo crocs....the list goes on. As the saying goes, "can you survive Australia's gauntlet ?" Same goes for Arm.

Now, back to the point, Arm's world is very deadly, and will have alot of diffrent critters with poison, even if they arn't coded, there is no better way to tell somthing that wants to eat you to back off then some venom.

Now as for this script that you get bitten in the desert - yeah, i can see that. But not every room. And not close to the cities. Perhaps out in the deep desert, in the thornwoods, in the tablelands, and the grasslands. - Not every room, but somewhere.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Now as for this script that you get bitten in the desert - yeah, i can see that. But not every room. And not close to the cities. Perhaps out in the deep desert, in the thornwoods, in the tablelands, and the grasslands. - Not every room, but somewhere.

That is all I ever suggested.

[Carnage]

What about when I'm mounted high on my kank and it's chitin-covered legs are touching the ground?

[EvilRoeSlade]

Since NPCs, including kanks, aren't subject to poison, the script couldn't feasibly triggered upon movement.  Instead it would check randomly for it if you spend enough time dismounted.

[Comrade Canadia]

A bunch of 2hp critters?

NO!  NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!

*sigh*

Look.  I want a functioning ecology, I don't care about coding in VNPC bugs.  The entire -purpose- behind this was that I was wondering 'What do scrabs eat?'.  As far as I can tell, nothing except the -very- rare time another creature is found.  Little 2hp critters wouldn't cut it for a big bastard like a scrab.  When I think prey animals, I'm not just thinking armag's equivalent to bunny rabbits.  There's lots of potential for variety here.

If you want 'em poisonous, sure.  I really could care less about how this affects hunting, the PCs can adjust to the way the world is.  Read my lips:

I'd like to find out whatever scrabs eat, and ideally have them coded (visibly) in to the game, and have this set precedence for all the other areas.  It's hard to believe you're in actual wilderness if you can't find signs of a functioning ecosystem around.  Little 2hp things can remain virtual - I think it would be sort of neat if a high scan could find you a small meal if you're in the middle of nowhere... but hey.  We gotta kill those newbies, right?  I mean, this mud wouldn't be the same if we didn't do our damdest to kill newbies all the time.

So make the fucking prey ninety feet tall, give them spikes, laser vision, psionic attacks, poison, flight, 300 hps and whatever.  This way I can be happy and people can kill their stupid newbies.  

-Der Comrade

[EvilRoeSlade]

Wolves can survive entire seasons by eating mice.  Yes mice.  I'd say that a wolf is probably thousands of times bigger than a mouse.

I always figured insects had low energy needs, but that's admittedly only a guess.  But either way, a scrab is probably subsisting on things smaller than you seem to imagine.  Tiny insects would be a vital part of an ecosystem.  That's why I suggested my idea.

Most of the chains of an ecosystem would probably have no game effect.   They shouldn't be coded in game, they should be written up in the documentation, and shown in room echos.  That way you can use them in emotes, and talk about them with other people.  But there isn't any need for them to be coded unless they have a purpose beyond simply ecology.

That being said, I believe that the wildlife in Allanak isn't diverse enough.

We have plenty of high-end predators (of which there shouldn't be many), but we only have one scavenger/predator in the middle.  There should be a few more of those.

Those scavenger/predator's are probably going to be eating tiny insects.  Which is where my previous input comes in in the food chain.

[Comrade Canadia]

Okay, sure, wolves eat mice.  I grew up in the middle of a big forest in Northern Canada so I'm familiar with this.  However, mice are not the only prey animal in the forest  There are deer, rabbits, grouse, beavers, and whatever else have you.  Huge ecosystem working here.

Saying that scrabs subsist entirely off of miniature little assumed virtual bugs is a cop out when there's potential for a much richer environment out there.  And you know what, if the prey animals are little ones... fine.  How about we branch into scavengers?  Find me an ecosystem without scavengers that sure as hell aren't going to attack anything living unless they're starving - and instead just find the corpses of those who've died from starvation, illness, dehydration, what have you.  

An ecosystem that is entirely derived of tiny little creatures, and then GIGANTIC BUGS THAT EAT YOUR HEAD doesn't really strike me as a rich, immersive environment.  It's the red desert, and so of course shouldn't be crawling with life, but shit lives out there - and if you look, you should be able to find something more than gigantic newbie-eating bugs.  

Seriously, this seems to be tying back to this stupid fetish people have for 'harshness'.  Yes, Zalanthas is harsh.  But if the only creatures out there are big bugs that eat your head (yeah, there's other stuff in the red desert, but it's pretty frickin' uncommon), I think that enriching a roleplay world is actually sacrificed at the expense of ensuring that people die ALL THE TIME in the desert.  

Of course, this might not be the case at all... but people seem to be stuck on this 'The only creatures should be able to eat newbies' thing, and so it seems a trend I should point out here.  What is the problem with diversifying the environment in a realistic fashion?  

-Der Comrade

[sacac]

Alright, This would get one of my main concern gone, make it so that the small creatures are spread out and none are close to the city for those twiinks to go and level up thier skills easily, without a chance of dieing.

[Chac]

We could just turn the mud into one big room full of gajs. And acid. And fire. In space.

But... I don't think that'd be fun.  Why are we so desperate to kill newbies that we're willing to sacrafice the game world over it?  Why should I even care if they're out killing little critters?  

Instead of slaughtering newbies as soon as they leave town, because otherwise they might kill something and raise their stats, why don't we try to create an immersive world and teach newbies how to play properly in it?

I'd like to see a world I can truly get immersed in, and if the cost of that is the occasional newbie getting killed by a gith instead of a scrab, I think I can take that risk.

[Cenghiz]

In FR, I let my players have some uber-chars to be heroes, as a DM. In DarkSun, I let them crawl. This is survival, not legendary RP. You survive, or die... Simple!

[Comrade Canadia]

Okay kids, let's discuss twinky newbie dirty word WHATEVERS that hunt.

They are going to go out and kill everything in sight no matter WHAT the desert is populated with.  If the entire desert was full of easy to kill mobs that upped your skills beautifully I'm pretty damn sure the number of powergaming twinks would NOT GO UP THAT MUCH.  As it stands, the desert is populated by like, three species of giant bugs that rip your head off.  As it stands, we still have a lot of twinks.

You know, maybe what's in the desert is irrelevant to people who go out and hunt everything in sight?  People are always going to start out in roleplaying games with the idea that your character is defined by his or her skills, and so the better the skills, the better the character.  This eventually goes away, or so we hope.  Giving a new hunter something he or she can kill is not going to encourage, or dissuade this mentality because the only way this mentality goes away is time.

I started roleplaying at like, twelve, with this mentality.  I played in tabletop games where I was fed every single monster in sight I could easily kill, and up my stats with.  Even when given everything I wanted, I still somehow learned how to roleplay.

Funny, that.  I am completely flabbergasted at how everyone is CONVINCED that newbies have to die the moment they step into the desert, and if they hunt anything they must be killed instantly.  THIS DOESN'T DISSUADE THEM.  They're gonna be here anyways, chill, relax, and they'll eventually catch on to how the mud works.  Frankly, I think a realistic, functioning ecosystem would HELP bring them into the game world and let them start seeing characters instead of stats because of suspension of disbelief issues.  Putting some creatures into the desert that would help breathe life into it isn't going to cause every single person on the game to suddenly turn into a stat-crazed powergamer, and wouldn't bring any more in than we already have.

Hell, what we have now is a big, empty desert with a bunch of big bugs that you HAVE to fight because they're aggro.  Frankly, that doesn't strike me as the sort of thing that'd dissuade a powergamer at all.  Stop living in fear of them, they're here, always have been, always will be.  Deal with them, teach them the game, and so forth.  Yes, twinks suck, but the only way you're getting rid of them is to get rid of every mob on the mud, making it impossible to hunt.

-Der Comrade

[Chac]

Alrighty, a while back there was a very cool conversation on IRC I'd like to bring to the GDB.  Basically, it was on the ecology of Zalanthas, and how and where the beasties are.  This isn't so much of a 'THE MUD SUCKS, CHANGE IT!' as a bunch of player ideas on how the admostphere of the desert and forest and all that could become cooler.

Little things:

Yeah, there are little things out there, we all know about tregils and whatnot... but you're as likely to find a gortok as you are a tregil.  I understand it's supposed to be harsh out there, but if you look around Allanak, the only creatures you're likely to find are scrab and beetles.  What do scrab and beetles eat?  From what I can tell, the only sustenance they have is newbie warriors who disobey the 'Don't go outside' rule.  
Where is the prey?  If the desert is only populated with gigantic creatures that can rip a large man who has a sword apart, how can they exist?  

Like... why is it that every insect I've encountered on the mud is gigantic or miniature?  Wouldn't it be sensible to have a fairly large amount of bugs the size of a small dog?  Or more birds?  Or  cool desert snakes?  Or little burrowy things?  Or... whatever, really.  It's a fantasy world.  What I'm seeing it mostly populated by are 'monsters'.  Big fucking things that eat your head.  Now, there -are- little things, and I highly approve of them... but I think they're in a minority here.  If there are more predators than there are prey, shouldn't mother nature be balancing things out?  

Now, the natural reaction to this is 'Well, then PCs are just going to be out hunting more and more and more' which, to be honest WOULD happen - and I'm not too fond of people running around after reboot, and killing everything in sight.  

Would it be possible to change the way mobs spawn in the code?  I'm not a coder, and frankly, this is just a player's wishlist so if its unfeasible feel free to tell me to screw off *grin*  The idea I'd have here, would be so that there's a finite number of each sort of creature - ideally a rough approximation.  When one creature dies, a little while later, one other will appear a good distance from where the last one died.  If overhunting because a problem, simply turn down this finite number until the hunting slows down.  Ideally what would happen is that there'd be a steady population of critters out there, instead of everything at once, so that you get a bunch of hunters who log on at reboot, kill everything in sight, and then leave the area bare for the rest of the week.

Any comments on this more little creatures idea and changeup in the code idea?  What I'd like to see more of is a functioning ecosystem, where you aren't left pondering 'What do scrabs eat?' or 'Why did the scrab population go from 0-50 in the span of one day?'

-Der Comrade

Personally... I like the idea of something along the lines of big armor plated bison.  Not -actually- bison but you know what I mean.
Herd animals with crazy armor and horns or spines or something suitably armageddon.
Then they're prey for the creatures that know how to hunt them, but if some warrior wanders out of nak and picks on them they're going to just run off.  Or trample and gore him to death if he corners them.

Meaning... some herbivores or scavangers that are tough motherfuckers but not interested in eating people. Prey for the bigger monsters out there.

Hell. How about some lizards and stuff that eat corpses and scavange, and can be coded to flee as soon as they see people.

I don't really know everything that's out there right now, or what would fit in perfectly, but there are obvious gaps in the ecosystem out there.  And it'd be damn nice to see them filled with creatures that made sense. It'd flesh out the game world, give a better feeling of environment and atmosphere, and encourage good roleplaying.

[Chac]

In FR, I let my players have some uber-chars to be heroes, as a DM. In DarkSun, I let them crawl. This is survival, not legendary RP. You survive, or die... Simple!

Having a working ecosystem doesn't make the world less big and scary.
It's still a harsh desert with bugs that will eat you in a heartbeat.
It's just one that's cool, atmospheric and makes sense.

That and this is a mud, not a table top rpg.  It's not about heroes running around hacking each other up, it's about playing a unique personality in an exotic world.   Sure, make it harsh, but not just for the sake of being harsh, make it for the sake of provoking better rp.