The Ecology of Zalanthas

[Comrade Canadia]

Alrighty, a while back there was a very cool conversation on IRC I'd like to bring to the GDB.  Basically, it was on the ecology of Zalanthas, and how and where the beasties are.  This isn't so much of a 'THE MUD SUCKS, CHANGE IT!' as a bunch of player ideas on how the admostphere of the desert and forest and all that could become cooler.

Little things:

Yeah, there are little things out there, we all know about tregils and whatnot... but you're as likely to find a gortok as you are a tregil.  I understand it's supposed to be harsh out there, but if you look around Allanak, the only creatures you're likely to find are scrab and beetles.  What do scrab and beetles eat?  From what I can tell, the only sustenance they have is newbie warriors who disobey the 'Don't go outside' rule.  
Where is the prey?  If the desert is only populated with gigantic creatures that can rip a large man who has a sword apart, how can they exist?  

Like... why is it that every insect I've encountered on the mud is gigantic or miniature?  Wouldn't it be sensible to have a fairly large amount of bugs the size of a small dog?  Or more birds?  Or  cool desert snakes?  Or little burrowy things?  Or... whatever, really.  It's a fantasy world.  What I'm seeing it mostly populated by are 'monsters'.  Big fucking things that eat your head.  Now, there -are- little things, and I highly approve of them... but I think they're in a minority here.  If there are more predators than there are prey, shouldn't mother nature be balancing things out?  

Now, the natural reaction to this is 'Well, then PCs are just going to be out hunting more and more and more' which, to be honest WOULD happen - and I'm not too fond of people running around after reboot, and killing everything in sight.  

Would it be possible to change the way mobs spawn in the code?  I'm not a coder, and frankly, this is just a player's wishlist so if its unfeasible feel free to tell me to screw off *grin*  The idea I'd have here, would be so that there's a finite number of each sort of creature - ideally a rough approximation.  When one creature dies, a little while later, one other will appear a good distance from where the last one died.  If overhunting because a problem, simply turn down this finite number until the hunting slows down.  Ideally what would happen is that there'd be a steady population of critters out there, instead of everything at once, so that you get a bunch of hunters who log on at reboot, kill everything in sight, and then leave the area bare for the rest of the week.

Any comments on this more little creatures idea and changeup in the code idea?  What I'd like to see more of is a functioning ecosystem, where you aren't left pondering 'What do scrabs eat?' or 'Why did the scrab population go from 0-50 in the span of one day?'

-Der Comrade

[creeper386]

I beleive one of the staff has an area they are working on this in. Never seen it myself though. And slowly as things work out and there is time it's being seeped into the other areas I believe. So if all goes well a better working ecosystem is already on the way. I think. But you'd have to get an answer from someone that really knows.

Personally, I'm told there ARE alot of little stuff out there, but it takes being good at some things to find them. Which I don't beleive is completely realistic all the time. Although alot of creatures would be hiding and such I don't think every little creature would always be out of sight. But ... Who knows.


Creeper

[Bestatte]

It sounds a lot like an idea I was discussing with someone recently. I like it.

A concern, and a solution to the concern:

Concern:
If everyone knows that this system exists if it's implemented, some hunters will simply run to the other spawn room and kill -that- thing as well, giving them one more thing to kill and yet another thing no one else can kill because the other guy got to it already.
Solution:
1) Have the respawn occur in a -random- place within that zone. What I mean by zone is area, by name - since I don't know if that's the actual term for it in Arm code lingo.

So if you're in the 50-room area northwest of village A that is surrounded by a cliff to the south and the city wall to the west..that would be the zone where devil-rats live. Kill one devil rat in room 1-A, and another would pop up in some random room within that 50-room area.  It might show up in the same room, or 2 rooms away, or in the same room as "the big nasty critter that no one can ever hunt because he kills you ded EVERY TIME".

2) Have the respawn include a random chance of being a "boss mob." Again, no idea if there's a term for it in Arm code..

But basically it's that same devil-rat, except he is at max stats for his critter type. Not MORE than his critter type could have...but he'd be AI for everything "for his race," and he'd have the most HPs, most stamina, most stun, and (if magickal) most mana that "race" is capable of having.

This would give that greedy hunter who doesn't care that he's killing the entire coded critter population inside of a few hours, a chance to kill yet one more coded critter. But it would also add the risk of that hunter getting killed by the big nasty critter no one can ever hunt because he kills you ded EVERY TIME, and it also mean that he might run out of arrows trying to kill the little devil rat, which just jumps around on its merry way, because it is an uber devil rat.

And it gives people who happen to be in the area of the respawn a shot at getting the critter before the greedy hunter's kank can ride there.

[Callisto]

That sounds like the ideal solution to Everquest camping Bestatte, but I don't think I like the sound of it for Armageddon.

[sacac]

My only concern (Or my strongest), Suppose we did put this into affect pretty quickly, If done wrong at all, it could turn this into a "you have to apply to hack&slash" Mu* Instead of the harsh deadly planet that it is.

My one idea to fix this would be to rewrite the poison code so that there isn't one pill that cures all (If that is the case, I don't know). And these small little creatures could hold some very dangerous poison in a small creature that resembles, heavily like a non dangerous counter part.
E.I. Modern day King snake and Corral snake.

[Bestatte]

That sounds like the ideal solution to Everquest camping Bestatte, but I don't think I like the sound of it for Armageddon.

That's all well and good Callisto, and thank you for sharing. Now - do you have a better idea?  Or maybe you don't feel there's any issue at all...in which case I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter regardless. Unless you don't have any, and just wanted to post that you don't like something?

If that's the case..

I don't like eggplant. So there.

[EvilRoeSlade]

To address the Allanaki situation:

In a typical earth desert, the majority of the wild-life would be tiny reptiles and insects that are excruciatingly poisonous and hide under rocks all day to avoid getting fried.

Allanak could use more diversity yes, but there isn't any point to code a whole bunch of incredibly wimpy 1 hp creatures with insanely high hide skills.

What would work, is to create a script which causes a random chance for somebody wandering through the desert to accidently knock over a rock and piss off something poisonous.  They get a message conveying that the critter bit them and ran away, and now they are poisoned.

Rangers ought to be able to avoid this as a function of the scan skill.

[Kade]

The ideal solution to this would be to have animals become hungry and thirsty.  If they cannot find food or drink, after a while they die.  Then, a good ranger would know where the watering hole is, and could hunt many creatures near there.  However, even the big baddies need to drink there, making it a dangerous place.  If too many predators are killed, the small beasts breed out of control.  Not enough small beasts, predators die off.  Not enough grass and things for the small beasts, they die, and then the predators.  If a system like this were implemented, it would make the amount of water, ratio of small to big beasts, and amount of things to forage for and eat in the wild more realistic.

Thousands of tregil to feed a large beast population isnt realistic, which could be where more diverse beasts come in.

Kade

[Carnage]

2) Have the respawn include a random chance of being a "boss mob."

10 day ranger lfg to hunt boss mob rat plz send tell

Edit:

What would work, is to create a script which causes a random chance for somebody wandering through the desert to accidently knock over a rock and piss off something poisonous. They get a message conveying that the critter bit them and ran away, and now they are poisoned.

That's the cheesiest idea I've ever heard. Next we should make a script where you're in a city and you save some noble's life and he gives you like 500 'sid.

[EvilRoeSlade]

That's the cheesiest idea I've ever heard. Next we should make a script where you're in a city and you save some noble's life and he gives you like 500 'sid.

The two ideas are so far apart that I can't even begin to understand why you compared them.

My idea:  Involves something that could happen frequently.

Your idea:  Involves something that would probably never happen.

My idea:  Involves characters that are best represented by virtual npcs.

Your idea:  Involves using vnpcs in a scenario that is best represented by NPCs and PCs.

I'd like to hear a response that doesn't involve a worthless analogy, but I realize you don't have one.  Goodbye.

[grog]

While we are at it we could add a chance to be bitten by a diseased rat while walking through some of the sections of city.    To suffocate during a bad sand storm.  

It's a not a bad idea, but I don't see many people liking it.

[Kade]

A response that doesn't involve a useless analogy:

So if just walking through the desert can cause you to get poisoned, that would be pretty bad if you had a long trek, or were just foraging in a couple places near the city.  How about simply more animals like snakes that could leap out at you?  and their bite, if they hit you with it and their fangs or stinger or whatnot got through any protective layer -could- poison you, if your race was not immune to such things.

That would be better than walking around and having poison appear in your blood, with no way to kill the kritter that done it.  Perhaps antidotes could be made from fangs gotten from dead animals?  right antidote from the correct poison.

Autarch Kade

[jhunter]

I think more things like venomous snakes and such that hide with some sort of timer when something enters the room with them, a few moments later they strike at the offender.

Something that if you can see it, you can avoid it or kill it before it attacks...if not and you spend too much time in the same room with it unknowingly, you somehow disturb it causing it to attack.

It would be cool if it was also one of the non-fatal poisons that could end up causing death in the wilds.

I don't know if it's possible to code such a thing as far as the timer goes but I know the rest could be done using what already exists.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Why?  Because that would have 40 day warriors deftly parrying the attack of something thats striking his ankle.  Which incidently, makes no sense.

The script could take into account your agility, size, defense percentage... you could make it as complex as you want.  But it should have to depend on more than just how bad-ass you are in a hand to hand fight.

As for getting an antidote... well, you had better have an antidote with you because if you're using the brew code to harvest an antidote to your poison -after- you've already been poisoned, then that is game abuse my friend.

[Carnage]

That's the cheesiest idea I've ever heard. Next we should make a script where you're in a city and you save some noble's life and he gives you like 500 'sid.

The two ideas are so far apart that I can't even begin to understand why you compared them.

My idea:  Involves something that could happen frequently.

Your idea:  Involves something that would probably never happen.

My idea:  Involves characters that are best represented by virtual npcs.

Your idea:  Involves using vnpcs in a scenario that is best represented by NPCs and PCs.

I'd like to hear a response that doesn't involve a worthless analogy, but I realize you don't have one.  Goodbye.

It's called sarcasm, and it's a pretty ridiculous idea. But if you want a crappy detrimental idea, then why don't we have one where you lose 50 'sid every time you go through the bazaar?

None the less, it's a bit ironic (and egotistical) that you've suddenly came up with the thought that your idea is best, spouting off that it "could happen frequently" despite there not being many creatures that are poisonous, both commonly known in Armageddon, represented in the NPC population, or even on Earth. Even more so, most critters in real life that are poisonous usually don't have deadly toxins to humans, or have fangs that are too weak to puncture human skin. Next, how is your little critter going to get through the hard coating of my chitin-plated boots? And finally, will there also be a variable to squish it or blow it away when I sneeze?

Now let me give the obligatory snide EvilRoeSlade conclusion of "I'd let you respond but you're too stupid so you're wasting my oh-so-valuable time lol". You are the weakest link sire! I expect a response. Oh wait, you're not competent enough. Goodbye! Hello!

[EvilRoeSlade]

This, I consider worth my effort.

But if you want a crappy detrimental idea, then why don't we have one where you lose 50 'sid every time you go through the bazaar?

Because there are PCs to steal coins.  There are no PCs to play poisonous vermin to bite you on the ankle.

None the less, it's a bit ironic (and egotistical) that you've suddenly came up with the thought that your idea is best, spouting off that it "could happen frequently" despite there not being many creatures that are poisonous, both commonly known in Armageddon, represented in the NPC population, or even on Earth.

There is room for the ecology of Armageddon to be expanded.  If the 20-30 creatures documented on the website were every creature that existed on Armageddon, then I'm pretty sure that everything on Zalanthas would have died of diseases, overpopulation, starvation, what have you.

Even more so, most critters in real life that are poisonous usually don't have deadly toxins to humans, or have fangs that are too weak to puncture human skin.

That's real life.  Zalanthas isn't real life, it's hell.  It deserves to be a more brutal world, with more brutal wildlife.

Next, how is your little critter going to get through the hard coating of my chitin-plated boots?

It wouldn't.  Maybe it could bite your ankle, but your chitin-plated boots would count for you, yes.

And finally, will there also be a variable to squish it or blow it away when I sneeze?

Obviously your sneeze isn't going to reach it when its one inch above ground level and you are six cords above ground level.  And there isn't any way to time and aim your sneeze even if you can.

But there could be a chance to either jerk your foot out of the way, or crush it under your boot after it bites you.

Your insults don't phase me, but your response allows me to further develop my idea.  Thank you.

[jhunter]

Why? Because that would have 40 day warriors deftly parrying the attack of something thats striking his ankle. Which incidently, makes no sense.

That's something I hadn't thought of...about the only logical explaination for that I can think of is the fact that a 40 day warrior would have well above your average person's reflexes...due to being honed by training and whatnot..hrrrmmmm, I was going to say something to back that up further...might be too IC.

But anyways, maybe design them as such that they get an enormous bonus to that first attack when they come out of hiding...like a backstab or something...

[EvilRoeSlade]

Your reflexes are always going to be inferior to that tiny snake or scorpion.  If you've ever watched the discovery channel, you wouldn't believe how fast those little guys can strike to snatch up flies or bite the heavily gloved finger of the narrator.

I suggested this idea as a hazard that warriors wouldn't have any particular advantage against.  A warrior (or a merchant, for that matter) can step on the scorpion afterwards, but the damage has already been done.  The idea isn't to be able to kill the critter (which doesn't serve any purpose either way) but to avoid disturbing it in the first place.

[jhunter]

Well, for those with the proper skill...a source for a poison to extract.

For those who can't spot them and accidently disturb them...pain, discomfort and possibly resulting death.

I don't want to see it be some super deadly poison that you die in two seconds from....piss me off so bad I'd never want to play again.

I've no problem with something like that being -nearly- impossible to keep from getting hit by...I do have a problem with it if it was certainly fatal without the proper cure every time.

It would blow ass losing a pc just to find out about it if that was the case, it would be about the only way you could learn to begin with.

[Carnage]

This, I consider worth my effort.

Well, don't I just feel so honored.

Because there are PCs to steal coins. There are no PCs to play poisonous vermin to bite you on the ankle.

Open halflings up again.

There is room for the ecology of Armageddon to be expanded. If the 20-30 creatures documented on the website were every creature that existed on Armageddon, then I'm pretty sure that everything on Zalanthas would have died of diseases, overpopulation, starvation, what have you.

More likely than not, there's thousands of your run of the mill ordinary creatures that aren't very interesting or noticeable. An iguana here or there. Dozens of species of tiny insects. Whatever.

That's real life. Zalanthas isn't real life, it's hell. It deserves to be a more brutal world, with more brutal wildlife.

That doesn't mean that every little spider needs to be DEATH KILL MURDER SPIDER 666 which obliterates you in one bite because it's more hardcore than the last beast you saw.

It wouldn't. Maybe it could bite your ankle, but your chitin-plated boots would count for you, yes.

I'd assume most of the good boots of the world would be higher than the ankle, to support it and so someone didn't sprain or twist their ankle the wrong way if they slipped on a rock. My Timberland boots are securely passed my ankle, and my pants fall passed mouth of them.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Well, don't I just feel so honored.

Of course you do.

That doesn't mean that every little spider needs to be DEATH KILL MURDER SPIDER 666 which obliterates you in one bite because it's more hardcore than the last beast you saw.

No, it doesn't have to be that way.  When I proposed this idea I was thinking more along the lines of a certain area (say, 50 to 100 or so rooms in the tablelands) in which entering would put you at the risk of falling prey to poisonous vermin hiding underneath the rocks.  There could even be a reward for experienced rangers who are tough enough to take on that area.  Maybe better hunting, or areas that have more fruitful foraging.  Or perhaps a tiny little oasis that can give that oh-so thirsty ranger a chance for life.

The poison doesn't have to be lethal in every case.  Maybe 99 out of 100 times you trigger this script, you get a dun-colored scorpion that only infects you with general poison, but in the 100th instance you get attacked by a jet-black, totally awesome snake which has the power to cause your flesh to evaporate and the seven specters of Zalanthas to converge on you and shred your soul into tiny, bite-sized chunks.  Or you know, something.

I'd assume most of the good boots of the world would be higher than the ankle, to support it and so someone didn't sprain or twist their ankle the wrong way if they slipped on a rock. My Timberland boots are securely passed my ankle, and my pants fall passed mouth of them.

Oh my yes.  But about those protective boots.  Do you know what happens when you go to sleep in the desert and take them off?  Those poisonous vermin see them and decide that they've discovered this great cave that's way better than just burrowing in the sand.  Those little poisonous critters love relatively cool, dark places.

Taking all that into account would make the script considerably more complex.  And the fact remains that most players are just going to spam-ride through the desert anyway, ignoring how tired and sore their characters are getting, not to mention all the dust, sand, and rocks that are finding their way into those nice boots.

I'm not kidding about all of this.  It's a real hazard that people in real life face when they are in the desert.  Have you ever been to Egypt?  If you decide to take a hike through the desert, the natives are going to tell you NOT TO DISTURB A SINGLE FUCKING ROCK UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE.  Lizards love to hide under rocks.  So do scorpions, snakes, and spiders.  Not all of them are poisonous, but enough of them are that you'd better not decide to pick up those rocks and start chucking them at your friends.  Of course, you still aren't safe from the buggers that like to burrow under the sand.

[Larrath]

Extracting poison from a bite, after it already mixed in the blood...well, I don't think so.  Unless you've got an uber chemistry set to separate everything.

Coding to shake your boot and crush a bug is about as useful as special code for a grain of sand and a tiny pebble to slip into your boot as you walk, annoying you and penalizing 0.05 movement points extra for each step, but giving rangers a special skill that would let them don their boots with more skill than a trained half-giant, and thus avoid said penalty.

Realistic affect, but pointless.  Instead, you can idea to a desert area this random move-message (like in the Bazaar in Allanak).
"Stepping by a small rock, a greenish-tinged nasty creepy bastardly thing bites your foot and then ends his now-fulfilled life under the sole of your foot".

[jhunter]

I'd love to see more of those messages all over the game world.

[Carnage]

No, it doesn't have to be that way. When I proposed this idea I was thinking more along the lines of a certain area (say, 50 to 100 or so rooms in the tablelands) in which entering would put you at the risk of falling prey to poisonous vermin hiding underneath the rocks.

...Don't you think there's enough crazy, deadly shit in the Tablelands already?

There could even be a reward for experienced rangers who are tough enough to take on that area. Maybe better hunting, or areas that have more fruitful foraging. Or perhaps a tiny little oasis that can give that oh-so thirsty ranger a chance for life.

So now are we going to have random scripts along the lines of "You find an oasis!"? I don't see why a ranger should have a greater chance of randomly stumbling upon an oasis. If anything, there could be clues in the hunt skill, but not just a 'RANGER ONLY RANGER ONLY' red flag flying over crap like that.

Taking all that into account would make the script considerably more complex. And the fact remains that most players are just going to spam-ride through the desert anyway, ignoring how tired and sore their characters are getting, not to mention all the dust, sand, and rocks that are finding their way into those nice boots.

And making them poisoned is going to slow them down from spamriding to find shelter, a friend, or a poison cure?

I'm not kidding about all of this. It's a real hazard that people in real life face when they are in the desert. Have you ever been to Egypt? If you decide to take a hike through the desert, the natives are going to tell you NOT TO DISTURB A SINGLE FUCKING ROCK UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE. Lizards love to hide under rocks. So do scorpions, snakes, and spiders. Not all of them are poisonous, but enough of them are that you'd better not decide to pick up those rocks and start chucking them at your friends.

How're you going to feel about this great idea when every outdoor character just makes sure to carry poison cures?

Of course, you still aren't safe from the buggers that like to burrow under the sand.

My characters are worried about anakore too.

[Angela Christine]

It wasn't that long ago that there were small poisonous snakes around Allanak.  Small, poisonous, aggro snakes, that were more feared than scrabs or tarantulas.  Then one day they all disappeared, though I'm not sure if they were hunted to extinction or the staff just got tired of people complaining about how unpleasant the area around Allanak was.  


AC

[Comrade Canadia]

Kay... uh, what I was talking about here was sort of building up a more visibly functioning ecology in the area.  Not coding in virtual poisonous bugs.  You can whack off all you want about 'harshness' and how not-harsh creatures are stupid, but... uh, nothing says that prey doesn't have to be dangerous.  

What I'd like to see is just some sort of foodchain present in most areas.  The littlest things can eat these virtual bugs... but what do the big things eat?  I refuse to believe that an entire species of insect's primary food source is T'Zai Byn members.  I think the desert would be a lot richer if just a -couple- of creatures were added to the mix.  Maybe some burrowing animals, lizards, hell - if you want poison, create a creature with poisonous spines or something that's non-aggro.  What I'm specifically referring to here is the Red Desert, but I'm sure a number of other areas could benefit from this.  I'm not talking a complete overhaul just... y'know, a bit of an ecology.  Give the scrabs and beetles something to eat.  How the hell did this get sidetracked into poisonous vnpc bugs, incidentally?

-Der Comrade

[jhunter]

Because noone wants to see these little things that are food for the other beasts just become things any newbie can walk out and hunt down with no danger to them.

[mansa]

Because noone wants to see these little things that are food for the other beasts just become things any newbie can walk out and hunt down with no danger to them.

I thought I'd just quote that.



I would LOVE to see the world of Armageddon more fleshed out with the whole ecosystems.  I'd love to wander the deserts, and watch from a distance a Raptor hunt out for it's prey, and take it down, and watch the beautiful form it has, as it stalks the poor beast.  I would love to see which sort of animal a Gortok eats for breakfast, and watch the pack encircle and eat it.

It's not about being able to hunt 'newbie' beasts.  It's about fleshing out the world.  Who cares if the little beast can die in one shot?  It's not important to the economy, and it a minor point.  It's like complaining that you lose movement points while trying to flee from a soldier, when you are stealing a sword from the salarr shop.

[Comrade Canadia]

So, by your argument, the Red Desert shouldn't have a functioning ecology because newbies shouldn't be able to kill the 'prey' animals?

Who says they have to be easy for newbies to kill?  

Make 'em flee, hide, poisonous, too big and mean for newbies to kill but not aggressive... there's tons of options.  Try to catch a rabbit with a sword.  It's not easy!  It's a fantasy world, and so creatures can have all sorts of neat defense mechanisms.  Creatures already do IRL.  

-Der Comrade

[cisalus]

Comrade Canadia is right... We're not talking about poisonous creatures, we're talking about a more complicated ecology system.

I, personally, play Arm because:

1) it is one of the most intricate muds
2) it has some damn cool descriptions, areas, creatures, etc to look at.

Now.. 2... Armageddon DOES have some awesome creature descriptions, and I /think/ what Comrade Canadia is trying to say is that if we add more to the ecology, then it will be even more interesting to 'explore', and no, I'm not getting into explore AND h&s, just explore.

Think of it this way.. If there were more animals, and PCs and Players alike knew absolutely nothing about them, would some of the Players, though possibly OOC because the creatures would have been their ICly forever, make their PCs go check out some new rainbow lizard that bears a skin so flashy that even Tek would shit his pants for it?

I dunno.. Just my thoughts

[jhunter]

I don't think any of you understand what I'm saying...-I too- would love to see full ecosystems and such.

I would be afraid that having alot of little things all over the place would encourage those h&s players that come to Arm from elsewhere, to do so here...and if none of you think that it would, your dead wrong.

The reason we don't have so much of a problem with it now is because those who go out, h&s style killing things...usually die, get frustrated and quit.
Which, if that's all they are here for..doesn't bother me one damned bit.

[mansa]

I think the reason we don't see it now is because nobody's attempted it.  Hence, this discussion will bring about good points, different aspects that people haven't thought about, script ideas for bored immortals, and everything else.

I wish there was a way to observe things, without using hide / scan skills.  I think scan should be a skill that a subclass should be able to get.

[EvilRoeSlade]

How the hell did this get sidetracked into poisonous vnpc bugs, incidentally?

Because they are a part of the ecology that would change the dynamic by being coded in.

It sounds like you want a bunch of 2 hit point little critters that don't do anything.  I just don't think they necessarily need to be coded unless they do something.

[EvilRoeSlade]

...Don't you think there's enough crazy, deadly shit in the Tablelands already?

No.

So now are we going to have random scripts along the lines of "You find an oasis!"? I don't see why a ranger should have a greater chance of randomly stumbling upon an oasis. If anything, there could be clues in the hunt skill, but not just a 'RANGER ONLY RANGER ONLY' red flag flying over crap like that.

Not a random script.  I'm talking about say... a place where you can forage for roots readily, or something.  I don't really care what it is.  There would be nothing random about it, you'd just have to brave the poisonous bugs to get there.

And making them poisoned is going to slow them down from spamriding to find shelter, a friend, or a poison cure?

How're you going to feel about this great idea when every outdoor character just makes sure to carry poison cures?

I don't think my idea will increase the amount of twinks, but of course twinks will always find there way around things.  Nonetheless, I don't care.  Nor do I care if people carry poison cures to avoid it.  In fact, that's the POINT.  I didn't suggest this as a way to kill players, just as a treachery that a player can find a solution to.

[Lazloth]

There would be nothing random about it, you'd just have to brave the poisonous bugs to get there.

Where did this come from?  Are you a big peyote fan or something?

Why don't you just make use of emote or ask Bhag to zap you with poison periodically?

[jhunter]

I wish there was a way to observe things, without using hide / scan skills. I think scan should be a skill that a subclass should be able to get.

I agree, just so long as the cap is much lower on it.

[SpyGuy]

I always thought guards should get a low-capped scan skill.  As it is now they're useless to guard a gate or the like from hidden opponents rather then having some small ability to catch crappy thieves and assassins.

[Anarchy]

despite there not being many creatures that are poisonous, both commonly known in Armageddon, represented in the NPC population, or even on Earth. Even more so, most critters in real life that are poisonous usually don't have deadly toxins to humans, or have fangs that are too weak to puncture human skin.

Clearly you haven't been to Australia. Amercia is a happy bunny love land (its why they seek out trouble elsewhere) But Australia is, in my mind Arm's RL equal. Lots of deadly little animals, pretty much every third animal in australia can kill you, be it a Brown Snake, Copperhead, Death Adder, Red-Bellied Black Snake, Taipan Snake, Tiger Snake,(there are a hundred or so more snakes, but i cant list them all) a Paralysis Tick, a red back spider, a funnel web spider, hell even the cute platypus produces one of the most excruciating venoms known to man, and thats not even a complete list of Australian animals with venom hell, pretty much the only critter with deadly poison but cant puncture human skin is the daddy long-legs.- Then you have animals that can kill you due to their size - razor back boars, red kangaroo crocs....the list goes on. As the saying goes, "can you survive Australia's gauntlet ?" Same goes for Arm.

Now, back to the point, Arm's world is very deadly, and will have alot of diffrent critters with poison, even if they arn't coded, there is no better way to tell somthing that wants to eat you to back off then some venom.

Now as for this script that you get bitten in the desert - yeah, i can see that. But not every room. And not close to the cities. Perhaps out in the deep desert, in the thornwoods, in the tablelands, and the grasslands. - Not every room, but somewhere.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Now as for this script that you get bitten in the desert - yeah, i can see that. But not every room. And not close to the cities. Perhaps out in the deep desert, in the thornwoods, in the tablelands, and the grasslands. - Not every room, but somewhere.

That is all I ever suggested.

[Carnage]

What about when I'm mounted high on my kank and it's chitin-covered legs are touching the ground?

[EvilRoeSlade]

Since NPCs, including kanks, aren't subject to poison, the script couldn't feasibly triggered upon movement.  Instead it would check randomly for it if you spend enough time dismounted.

[Comrade Canadia]

A bunch of 2hp critters?

NO!  NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!

*sigh*

Look.  I want a functioning ecology, I don't care about coding in VNPC bugs.  The entire -purpose- behind this was that I was wondering 'What do scrabs eat?'.  As far as I can tell, nothing except the -very- rare time another creature is found.  Little 2hp critters wouldn't cut it for a big bastard like a scrab.  When I think prey animals, I'm not just thinking armag's equivalent to bunny rabbits.  There's lots of potential for variety here.

If you want 'em poisonous, sure.  I really could care less about how this affects hunting, the PCs can adjust to the way the world is.  Read my lips:

I'd like to find out whatever scrabs eat, and ideally have them coded (visibly) in to the game, and have this set precedence for all the other areas.  It's hard to believe you're in actual wilderness if you can't find signs of a functioning ecosystem around.  Little 2hp things can remain virtual - I think it would be sort of neat if a high scan could find you a small meal if you're in the middle of nowhere... but hey.  We gotta kill those newbies, right?  I mean, this mud wouldn't be the same if we didn't do our damdest to kill newbies all the time.

So make the fucking prey ninety feet tall, give them spikes, laser vision, psionic attacks, poison, flight, 300 hps and whatever.  This way I can be happy and people can kill their stupid newbies.  

-Der Comrade

[EvilRoeSlade]

Wolves can survive entire seasons by eating mice.  Yes mice.  I'd say that a wolf is probably thousands of times bigger than a mouse.

I always figured insects had low energy needs, but that's admittedly only a guess.  But either way, a scrab is probably subsisting on things smaller than you seem to imagine.  Tiny insects would be a vital part of an ecosystem.  That's why I suggested my idea.

Most of the chains of an ecosystem would probably have no game effect.   They shouldn't be coded in game, they should be written up in the documentation, and shown in room echos.  That way you can use them in emotes, and talk about them with other people.  But there isn't any need for them to be coded unless they have a purpose beyond simply ecology.

That being said, I believe that the wildlife in Allanak isn't diverse enough.

We have plenty of high-end predators (of which there shouldn't be many), but we only have one scavenger/predator in the middle.  There should be a few more of those.

Those scavenger/predator's are probably going to be eating tiny insects.  Which is where my previous input comes in in the food chain.

[Comrade Canadia]

Okay, sure, wolves eat mice.  I grew up in the middle of a big forest in Northern Canada so I'm familiar with this.  However, mice are not the only prey animal in the forest  There are deer, rabbits, grouse, beavers, and whatever else have you.  Huge ecosystem working here.

Saying that scrabs subsist entirely off of miniature little assumed virtual bugs is a cop out when there's potential for a much richer environment out there.  And you know what, if the prey animals are little ones... fine.  How about we branch into scavengers?  Find me an ecosystem without scavengers that sure as hell aren't going to attack anything living unless they're starving - and instead just find the corpses of those who've died from starvation, illness, dehydration, what have you.  

An ecosystem that is entirely derived of tiny little creatures, and then GIGANTIC BUGS THAT EAT YOUR HEAD doesn't really strike me as a rich, immersive environment.  It's the red desert, and so of course shouldn't be crawling with life, but shit lives out there - and if you look, you should be able to find something more than gigantic newbie-eating bugs.  

Seriously, this seems to be tying back to this stupid fetish people have for 'harshness'.  Yes, Zalanthas is harsh.  But if the only creatures out there are big bugs that eat your head (yeah, there's other stuff in the red desert, but it's pretty frickin' uncommon), I think that enriching a roleplay world is actually sacrificed at the expense of ensuring that people die ALL THE TIME in the desert.  

Of course, this might not be the case at all... but people seem to be stuck on this 'The only creatures should be able to eat newbies' thing, and so it seems a trend I should point out here.  What is the problem with diversifying the environment in a realistic fashion?  

-Der Comrade

[sacac]

Alright, This would get one of my main concern gone, make it so that the small creatures are spread out and none are close to the city for those twiinks to go and level up thier skills easily, without a chance of dieing.

[Chac]

We could just turn the mud into one big room full of gajs. And acid. And fire. In space.

But... I don't think that'd be fun.  Why are we so desperate to kill newbies that we're willing to sacrafice the game world over it?  Why should I even care if they're out killing little critters?  

Instead of slaughtering newbies as soon as they leave town, because otherwise they might kill something and raise their stats, why don't we try to create an immersive world and teach newbies how to play properly in it?

I'd like to see a world I can truly get immersed in, and if the cost of that is the occasional newbie getting killed by a gith instead of a scrab, I think I can take that risk.

[Cenghiz]

In FR, I let my players have some uber-chars to be heroes, as a DM. In DarkSun, I let them crawl. This is survival, not legendary RP. You survive, or die... Simple!

[Comrade Canadia]

Okay kids, let's discuss twinky newbie dirty word WHATEVERS that hunt.

They are going to go out and kill everything in sight no matter WHAT the desert is populated with.  If the entire desert was full of easy to kill mobs that upped your skills beautifully I'm pretty damn sure the number of powergaming twinks would NOT GO UP THAT MUCH.  As it stands, the desert is populated by like, three species of giant bugs that rip your head off.  As it stands, we still have a lot of twinks.

You know, maybe what's in the desert is irrelevant to people who go out and hunt everything in sight?  People are always going to start out in roleplaying games with the idea that your character is defined by his or her skills, and so the better the skills, the better the character.  This eventually goes away, or so we hope.  Giving a new hunter something he or she can kill is not going to encourage, or dissuade this mentality because the only way this mentality goes away is time.

I started roleplaying at like, twelve, with this mentality.  I played in tabletop games where I was fed every single monster in sight I could easily kill, and up my stats with.  Even when given everything I wanted, I still somehow learned how to roleplay.

Funny, that.  I am completely flabbergasted at how everyone is CONVINCED that newbies have to die the moment they step into the desert, and if they hunt anything they must be killed instantly.  THIS DOESN'T DISSUADE THEM.  They're gonna be here anyways, chill, relax, and they'll eventually catch on to how the mud works.  Frankly, I think a realistic, functioning ecosystem would HELP bring them into the game world and let them start seeing characters instead of stats because of suspension of disbelief issues.  Putting some creatures into the desert that would help breathe life into it isn't going to cause every single person on the game to suddenly turn into a stat-crazed powergamer, and wouldn't bring any more in than we already have.

Hell, what we have now is a big, empty desert with a bunch of big bugs that you HAVE to fight because they're aggro.  Frankly, that doesn't strike me as the sort of thing that'd dissuade a powergamer at all.  Stop living in fear of them, they're here, always have been, always will be.  Deal with them, teach them the game, and so forth.  Yes, twinks suck, but the only way you're getting rid of them is to get rid of every mob on the mud, making it impossible to hunt.

-Der Comrade

[Chac]

Alrighty, a while back there was a very cool conversation on IRC I'd like to bring to the GDB.  Basically, it was on the ecology of Zalanthas, and how and where the beasties are.  This isn't so much of a 'THE MUD SUCKS, CHANGE IT!' as a bunch of player ideas on how the admostphere of the desert and forest and all that could become cooler.

Little things:

Yeah, there are little things out there, we all know about tregils and whatnot... but you're as likely to find a gortok as you are a tregil.  I understand it's supposed to be harsh out there, but if you look around Allanak, the only creatures you're likely to find are scrab and beetles.  What do scrab and beetles eat?  From what I can tell, the only sustenance they have is newbie warriors who disobey the 'Don't go outside' rule.  
Where is the prey?  If the desert is only populated with gigantic creatures that can rip a large man who has a sword apart, how can they exist?  

Like... why is it that every insect I've encountered on the mud is gigantic or miniature?  Wouldn't it be sensible to have a fairly large amount of bugs the size of a small dog?  Or more birds?  Or  cool desert snakes?  Or little burrowy things?  Or... whatever, really.  It's a fantasy world.  What I'm seeing it mostly populated by are 'monsters'.  Big fucking things that eat your head.  Now, there -are- little things, and I highly approve of them... but I think they're in a minority here.  If there are more predators than there are prey, shouldn't mother nature be balancing things out?  

Now, the natural reaction to this is 'Well, then PCs are just going to be out hunting more and more and more' which, to be honest WOULD happen - and I'm not too fond of people running around after reboot, and killing everything in sight.  

Would it be possible to change the way mobs spawn in the code?  I'm not a coder, and frankly, this is just a player's wishlist so if its unfeasible feel free to tell me to screw off *grin*  The idea I'd have here, would be so that there's a finite number of each sort of creature - ideally a rough approximation.  When one creature dies, a little while later, one other will appear a good distance from where the last one died.  If overhunting because a problem, simply turn down this finite number until the hunting slows down.  Ideally what would happen is that there'd be a steady population of critters out there, instead of everything at once, so that you get a bunch of hunters who log on at reboot, kill everything in sight, and then leave the area bare for the rest of the week.

Any comments on this more little creatures idea and changeup in the code idea?  What I'd like to see more of is a functioning ecosystem, where you aren't left pondering 'What do scrabs eat?' or 'Why did the scrab population go from 0-50 in the span of one day?'

-Der Comrade

Personally... I like the idea of something along the lines of big armor plated bison.  Not -actually- bison but you know what I mean.
Herd animals with crazy armor and horns or spines or something suitably armageddon.
Then they're prey for the creatures that know how to hunt them, but if some warrior wanders out of nak and picks on them they're going to just run off.  Or trample and gore him to death if he corners them.

Meaning... some herbivores or scavangers that are tough motherfuckers but not interested in eating people. Prey for the bigger monsters out there.

Hell. How about some lizards and stuff that eat corpses and scavange, and can be coded to flee as soon as they see people.

I don't really know everything that's out there right now, or what would fit in perfectly, but there are obvious gaps in the ecosystem out there.  And it'd be damn nice to see them filled with creatures that made sense. It'd flesh out the game world, give a better feeling of environment and atmosphere, and encourage good roleplaying.

[Chac]

In FR, I let my players have some uber-chars to be heroes, as a DM. In DarkSun, I let them crawl. This is survival, not legendary RP. You survive, or die... Simple!

Having a working ecosystem doesn't make the world less big and scary.
It's still a harsh desert with bugs that will eat you in a heartbeat.
It's just one that's cool, atmospheric and makes sense.

That and this is a mud, not a table top rpg.  It's not about heroes running around hacking each other up, it's about playing a unique personality in an exotic world.   Sure, make it harsh, but not just for the sake of being harsh, make it for the sake of provoking better rp.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Actually, I agree.  The whole reason behind my idea of little tiny creepy crawlies is that I want to see desert survival RP that isn't oriented around killing monsters.  I don't want a desert that's deadly because its the land of monsters.  I want a desert that's deadly because its a desert.  Tiny little poisonous creatures is an important part of any desert in my opinion.  And such creatures are an important part of an ecosystem as well.

A desert can't actually sustain very large creatures.  I'd prefer to see people fighting dehydration, risk of poison, the sun, and risk of getting lost.  But the staff still seems convinced that the desert needs monsters in it.  As I said, I would like to see more middle-sized and small creatures in the Nakki area.

Although I want to take the monsters away, I don't want the desert to be less deadly.  I'd like to see it deadly in different ways.

[spawnloser]

I'm playing in a FR game right now that has solved two problems.  Fight shit that will kill people if they are not really careful.  Also, people don't keep coming back because we're playing evil characters in an epic apocolyptic plotline, so we just raid the dead people for their shit and keep going.

...much like just about any Dark Sun game I've played in.

[Cenghiz]

SO it's not like ARM.. you're uber powerful, wandering around killing people and looting, then proceeding just to kill more.. I'm not insulting you, this is the way how FR is to be played. But's it's not the way how ARM is to be played IMNSHO.

[Anarchy]

I would assume scrabs eat sand lizards, spiders, other scrabs, the brown grass that are written in the room descs, etc.

[Black Isis]

Anyone else noticed the seemingly large problem with a lack of flying creatures? I suppose they would be silly to have people attacking with melee weapons (few people hunt birds with a spear, unless you are REALLY sneaky or REALLY fast), but even having them in appropriate echoes in forest and scrubland like there are in the markets would be a bit more interesting.

[Callisto]

Unless you don't have any, and just wanted to post that you don't like something?

It isn't a working solution for Armageddon.

That's all I'm saying.

[jhunter]

Sand sharks...big tooth-filled sand sharks...

lo w

[near]
Nothing.

[Far]
Nothing.

[Very Far]

A huge, grey fin slices through the dunes here.

DadadadadadadadadadadadadadadahdahDUHM!


I know it doesn't solve the problem...but it would be cool.