Please Roleplay in PK.

[Twilight]

I agree with Thanos's posts.  While that is not always how it is, as each individual has their own motivations, that is how your character should probably expect the world to work.

My only contribution to all this is that figuring out how well your character knows how to survive is something people should think about.  A character than knows quite a bit about it might flee as soon as attacked, putting all the player's knowledge on how to survive to work.  Others might sit there dumbfounded and be slain.  Most characters would fit in the middle I think, but from the boards I always get the impression than people think their characters should fall into the first category from day 1.

Try throwing out an emote or think to show some surprise!  Whether against a PC or NPC, take a little risk.  Don't assume that your character would always know how to survive.

[Quirk]

Do you want to make a quick attack from suprise? You can emote that.

No emote, just come out of hiding blades swinging...not only will my pc be surprised but so will I, further enhancing the experience for me.

Emote jumps out, all cool and evil and shit,weapons swinging.
k my pc
I'm like, "Oh look...they're surprise attacking me...*yawn* how nifty...blah...

It's like knowing what your getting for a gift beforehand...not as cool as being surprised by it.

This seems rather an odd perspective to me. Are you really going to be much more surprised by the coded echo "You dodge the random attacker's stab" than "Suddenly, the random attacker leaps toward you, her dagger jerking upward toward your midriff!"? Provided there isn't much time lag between seeing the emote and entering combat, the surprise is surely every bit as present.

To clarify for X-D, I wasn't suggesting stacking commands on commands, but stacking emotes with commands. If you're entering for a surprise attack, the only thing that's making the combat itself any more interesting than if they were attacked by an aggro NPC is the flavour you add to it with emotes (and yes, this is ignoring the context of the combat for the moment). Opening with an emote sets the scene, and as you don't need to sacrifice combat efficiency to do so there is no good reason not to, IMO, if you had the time to prepare one.

Quirk

[EvilRoeSlade]

If that's someone's preference fine...for me personally it ruins the experience of it being a surprise attack against my pc.
No emote, just come out of hiding blades swinging...not only will my pc be surprised but so will I, further enhancing the experience for me.

Your arguement is worthless because of how easy it is to use a macro or an alias to type in two commands at instant speed.

If you've initiated combat with somebody before they're done reading your emote, believe me, they shall be suprised.

[X-D]

To clarify for X-D, I wasn't suggesting stacking commands on commands, but stacking emotes with commands. If you're entering for a surprise attack, the only thing that's making the combat itself any more interesting than if they were attacked by an aggro NPC is the flavour you add to it with emotes (and yes, this is ignoring the context of the combat for the moment). Opening with an emote sets the scene, and as you don't need to sacrifice combat efficiency to do so there is no good reason not to, IMO, if you had the time to prepare one.

Quirk

Nod, but still more a personal pref.

To tell you the truth though, I'd do it if it was a command embedded emote, something I would love to see.

I think it would drasticly reduce redundancy, you know, like these things you see all the time.
(emote)
The dirty bynner brings a bowl of stew to his face slurping noisily.
(command)
The dirty bynner eats part of a bowl of stew.
(emote)
The dirty bynner belches then slurps down more stew.
(command)
The dirty bynner eats part of a partially eaten bowl of stew.

Etc etc

Much nicer to see:
(command with embedded emote)
Bringing a bowl of stew up to his face and slurping noisily the dirty bynner eats part of a bowl of stew.

Which would be specialy handy on commands like Subdue, Kill, backstab, kick, sap,  disarm, bash and spellcasting, though might be hard to add to spellcasting.

I know it has come up before, but I really got to thinking about it at the last rpt in tuluk, and though people did a great job, such an ability probobly would have cut the redundant spam by at least a 3rd.

I know I would certainly use the hell out of it:)

[Anonymous]

jhunter wrote:
If that's someone's preference fine...for me personally it ruins the experience of it being a surprise attack against my pc.
No emote, just come out of hiding blades swinging...not only will my pc be surprised but so will I, further enhancing the experience for me.


Your arguement is worthless because of how easy it is to use a macro or an alias to type in two commands at instant speed.

If you've initiated combat with somebody before they're done reading your emote, believe me, they shall be suprised.

It not an arguement, it's AS I SAID, my opinion and I'm entitled to it.
I think your comment about what I said being worthless borders on a flame...

I like Quirk's idea about being able to combine emotes with commands more.


Anyway, I'm sick of this thread...more of the same shit that gets rehashed over and over again...it's a waste of time and I'm done with it.

Peace.

[John]

I know it has come up before, but I really got to thinking about it at the last rpt in tuluk, and though people did a great job, such an ability probobly would have cut the redundant spam by at least a 3rd.

I know I would certainly use the hell out of it:)

As would I Maybe someone should idea it again

[jhunter(notlogged)]

Oops, that last one was mine.

[Quirk]

I would heartily agree that commands like kill, eat, etc could mightily use an embedded emote. While it's quite possible to avoid redundant emotes, almost everyone comes out with them from time to time and this would cut down on that immensely.

On a side note, as most non-combat RPTs seem to consist of parties, eat particularly bugs me as a source of redundant spam. You find yourself with an item that takes something like half a dozen "eats" to polish off, not to mention any emotes, when an single "eatall" command or something that devoured it until it was gone or the character ceased feeling hungry would be both more convenient and easier on the screens of everyone nearby. If you could stick an emote on that, it would make me even happier.

Quirk

[Pungee]

This whole RPing death stuff is interesting and I'd like to just illuminate one of the coolest things I ever had happen. I had a character who went outside of 'Nak to go hunting. Someone was tagging along who didn't exactly trust and was planning on double crossing out in the wastes anyway, when this other guy showed up. He drew out his weapon and told me to drop all my 'sid. I said, essentially, fuck off and drew my weapons and we went to town. The guy I was going to double cross beat me to the draw and started attacking me. They eventually knocked me unconcious and didn't kill me, though they could have, and robbed me blind. And since, at the time and now, you can still see 'Someone does...' when people emote as you're unconcious, they emoted out all the robbery stuff and the dragging. I woke up in the middle of the dunes at night and had to crawl to the gates. It was awesome, I ended up getting into a tavern and got killed by a templar for bleeding on his boots or something. It was THE best death ever. This happened years ago so  I think it's safe to post as a descriptor of what I wish death was ALWAYS like on Arm.

[Callisto]

The first part of this strip seems mildly relatable to the topic.

That is all.

[Gesht]

- - Quite frankly, I don't think anyone has any business demanding a PK be role played in the slightest. The time you spend describing anything is the time your prospective victim could be screwing you over. If this were the real world, all of your actions would be perceived at the exact same time that they happenned. This isn't; the code requires you take time to describe something which would actually occur simultaneously with the action you are comitting.

- - Yes, it may spoil things for a killer to not bother limiting their character's reaction time by emoting. I don't doubt plenty of people enjoyed dying because they were bashed and couldn't type stand because they were in mid-emote. However, expecting other people to give themselves a battle-handicap to make you feel more comfortable is absurd.

- - If you choose to make a pkill a delight for another player, well more power to you. On the other hand, if you don't want a victim to escape or contact their allies, kill them as hard and spartan as possible. Emoting isn't role playing. That's why you use "emote" instead of "rp" to emote. Emoting is much like bright paint; excellent for highlights, but blinding people doesn't make you an artist.

- - On a side note, disarming someone and picking up their weapon is code abuse. If I saw someone do it, I would immediately fine them karma, followed by emailing an OL to request the player lose the DISARM command. Whether or not you recovered karma would be up to that OL. I would do this no matter how "logical" your emotes were. The only exception is if a) a reasonable amount of time had passed since you disarmed the victim or b) you had attacked the person in such a way that their position had changed (i.e. successful kick/bash).

- - Does disarm EVER flip the weapon into your hand or have a chance of you being hit by the disarmed weapon? NO. That means the weapon does not fly in your direction. That means the weapon is most likely closer to your victim than to you. Excuse my language, but how the hell do you justify grabbing something closer to another person than yourself? Even aggro NPCs with blatantly unfair abilities don't immegiately grab for a weapon they've disarmed from another person. In fact, I don't think most grab anything while in combat unless they are disarmed.

- - So in summary, my feeling is you should consider getting role play out of your killer the same way you should treat an IRS audit going your way. It is a wonderful change from what you expect or deserve. As for disarm, I love watching players killing one another, and I will immediately karma-slap anyone I see grab a disarmed weapon unrealistically. You have been warned.

[John]

Quite frankly, I don't think anyone has any business demanding a PK be role played in the slightest.

[pendantic]I'm pretty sure you mean emote dangit[/pedantic] (hey, if Imms start using RP when they mean emote, more players are going to do it and new players are going to get confused. Yeah, everyone makes mistakes, hence the pendantic tags ).

As for disarm, I love watching players killing one another, and I will immediately karma-slap anyone I see grab a disarmed weapon unrealistically. You have been warned.

While disturbing (your not delerak are you? ), very cool I've seen disarm used a few times, and it is annoying to see most people "get weapon" all the time

[X-D]

Em puts on his flack jacket and wades into the fray.
[rant]
While I normaly like Gesht's posts and agree with most of the above, there is one point I have to take strong exeption to.

Does disarm EVER flip the weapon into your hand or have a chance of you being hit by the disarmed weapon? NO. That means the weapon does not fly in your direction

Fact is, neither the code, nor the docs state in any way shape or form where or how that weapon leaves the wielder's hand unless it leaves the room, neither the players OR the staff have any way of knowing either.
The statement of the weapon NOT flying in your direction is -wrong- because -you- -do- -not- -know-, period.

Help file for disarm:

SKILL_DISARM  (Combat)  


This skill when successful will knock your character's opponent's weapon from his/her hands

Just because somebody failed to write into the code that a disarmed weapon possibly could hit somebody does not mean that it doesn't. If we have to go with exactly as the code states then there is only 2 types of kicks in the game, one being the much argued over roundhouse and you better damm well not emote anything different because the code says you did this.
Bah.

For the record though, I do think picking up somebody elses weapon after disarm is lame, but not abuse, if I was going to call anything abuse with disarm it would be the fact that The person who gets disarmed can pick up the weapon without the person who disarmed them getting the free attack, and it can be done Every Single Time. What is even bigger code abuse to me is when Somebody can disarm another combat class char with as much time played 2, 5, 10 times in a row just because the other char does not have the skill, and personaly, I think that is pure bullshit. There is no way in hell IRL that somebody is going to knock my weapon away more then once or twice before I learn to avoid it. But unfortunatly the code is not built that way, npc's can disarm BOTH your weapons without any lag at all and an elf warrier with just a few days of play can disarm a half-giant ranger with 100 days of play, though I wish somebody would explain how a puny and weak elf manages to knock a huge weapon from a creature strong enough to pick up a kank, what is he holding his massive two-handed maul in some dainty pinky out manner? Even more enjoyable is when a halfling knocks that maul a room (A Full Fucking League!) Away. Somebody explain that one too me, and don't say you play it as going into a bush or something, according to Gesht you have to follow what the code says and the code never said it did anything other then fly out of the room.
[/rant]

em holds his riot shield and backs out if the fray.

[creeper386]

I still want to state one thing. Just because there is a chance that someone might abuse something, or twink out. Doesn't mean you should do the same, doesn't make it right if you do. Period. Just because there is a chance someone might do something doesn't mean you should be thinking OOCily, well I'm going to fuck everyone else because there is a chance they might do the same.

Thinking so is bullshit. Doing something bad before they do it to you in NO way makes it right. And I'll have to say, even if all the staff agrees with Gesht, I'M TERRIBLY SORRY that we have staff that think this way.


Creeper

[X-D]

Um, would you mind editing your post or something, I have no idea what:

And I'll have to say, even if all the staff agrees with Gesht, that we have staff that think this way, period.

means at all.

[Larrath]

I'm going to try and summerize just to kill this discussion.  I want new topics.

Disarming is a school of techniques, not just one technique, just like dodging can include jumping, roll, turning, crouching and turning to one side.  There are plenty of ways to disarm, from those showy cartwheels which are used to plant a kick at the butt of the weapon to roundhouse kicks to simply hitting the fingers that hold the hilt.

People can only disarm you the same way once or twice, maybe more if you catch up slower (dumb or not a good combat-char), but I'd say that anyone with the disarm skill knows probably about seven ways to disarm somebody.

True, it is not possible to tell where the weapon flied to, but it will be more likely for the weapon to fly back or to the side from the disarmer.  Unless you snatch the weapon, but that's a steal thing that can't really be done during combat.  It is as fair to assume that the weapon flies closer to the disarm as it is fair to assume that the randomly echoed stone jug fell exactly on your attacker's head.

Halflings tossing mauls fifty miles away?  Might be a very strong halfling...but regardless, it could be a nice addition to have object weight affect that.  And it could be nice to have every room have its coded 'size', from chamberpots to taverns to arena stands to desert rooms.  Could be nice, I doubt it will happen anytime soon.  And while we're on that subject, it's also odd that a person in regular clothing and nothing very heavy can walk indefinately through and through a city without ever tiring, as long as he stops to drink and eat.  Though maybe strength should play a bigger part in disarming.

Who knows, it's a half-giant.  Maybe the halfling tricked it into throwing the maul away.

I think this:  It IS possible to pick up someone's weapon, but if you want to do it, think trade.  Disarm, put three emotes, let the other character respond.  If, from the reality presented in those emotes, it is logical for you to take the weapon?  Good for you.  If not, stay away.  Or you could just emote stepping on the blade while lashing at them with your telescopic, molten-steel whip.

And, last and also least...I do not think combat HAS to have emotes in it.  The occasional emote is fun, and I emote fully if I have nothing else to do at the time.  If I do...either I'll make aliased emotes or I'll leave my enemy to wonder about the emoting while I focus on staying alive.

Combat emotes are the work of angels, not everyone can concentrate/type/see the situation well enough.

Thank you.

[X-D]

That post does very little to kill off the topic.

Oh, where to start.

Disarming is a school of techniques, not just one technique, just like dodging can include jumping, roll, turning, crouching and turning to one side. There are plenty of ways to disarm, from those showy cartwheels which are used to plant a kick at the butt of the weapon to roundhouse kicks to simply hitting the fingers that hold the hilt.

I really wanted to reply to that with nothing but a rude laugh, but decided against it.
First, I think you watch too many movies, the showy cartwheel or attempt to kick at the hilt of a weapon is just a good way to lose a limb of get yourself dead, hitting the fingers, Anybody with more then a few hours of instruction and 20-30 hours of training knows very well how to make sure that does not happen, and that is with weapons that do -not- have guards, which most swords do, even in arm, making it very hard to hit the fingers of somebody who does not know what they are doing, let alone people who do. The "school of techniques" for disarming is actually very limited and VERY easy to defend against IRL as long as you know they are going to attempt it (and after they have done so one time, I'm pretty sure you know). And how do you explain a man with a sword disarming somebody useing a two-handed spear/staff/halbard? Something that is basicly impossible IRL, one has to somehow remove the grip of two hands that are tightly grasping the weapon, but with a sword, which does not have the reach to do so, nor does it have the mass to knock the weapon away by brute force (unless wielded by a mul of half-giant)

People can only disarm you the same way once or twice, maybe more if you catch up slower (dumb or not a good combat-char), but I'd say that anyone with the disarm skill knows probably about seven ways to disarm somebody.

Who cares how many ways, the result that you are trying for is the same, and easy to guard against, IRL disarming is a "suprise" move that one attempts only when the time seems just right, and not something that you try over and over and over again, Why, because it gets you dead, if you succeed or fail the first time, after that the other person is on guard for the attempt, after the second or third try that person will have figured out where and when you leave yourself open when you make the attempt and will take advantage of it, Something I would LOVE to see in game, greater penalties for failed disarms.

True, it is not possible to tell where the weapon flied to, but it will be more likely for the weapon to fly back or to the side from the disarmer. Unless you snatch the weapon, but that's a steal thing that can't really be done during combat. It is as fair to assume that the weapon flies closer to the disarm as it is fair to assume that the randomly echoed stone jug fell exactly on your attacker's head

In my experiance that is completly untrue. I have stated before that I've been in the SCA for quite some time, and have a ton of combat under my belt there, I also belong to a local live steel combat group (yes, we use real swords, and not one of them is blunt or made of stainless steel) And I've NEVER been disarmed, though I have seen other people disarmed a few times, very few, and in none of those times has that weapon landed at either persons feet and was normaly a reasonable but equal distance away from both of them.

As for the halfling disarming the half-giant, your just being silly there right? I hope.

Also, your sort of missing the point I was trying to make on my other post. Which is simply there are a few hundred other commands in game that give specific echos on what is going on, yet we are allowed, even encouraged to decide for ourselves what has really happened and can emote to that point, If Gesht's opinion on the subject of disarm and picking up a weapon was official simply because the code does not state something, then we are all wrong and should do only as the coded echos say, for everything. So, all elves who have pack animals, You can no longer pack them or make them rest, because you must mount the animal to do so, the code states you mounted and that is something that an elf does not do, Everybody emoting strapping that shield  or sword or long spear to a backpack, stop it, the code states you placed it inside the pack, who cares how impossible it would be to stick a 5 foot item into a  foot tall item and close it, Code says you did, you did, No more changing ldesc to say you are simply leaning against something, code says you sat down. ETC ETC.
Get the point now?

I agree with all your other points though.

EDIT
And what about VNPC's, we get to ignore them too now, lots of places where they are not even in the room desc yet you are expected to assume they are there, or should I just typo/bug every city room where you can pick up a crim flag but has no vnpc's in the desc?

[Lazloth]

On a side note, disarming someone and picking up their weapon is code abuse. If I saw someone do it, I would immediately fine them karma, followed by emailing an OL to request the player lose the DISARM command. Whether or not you recovered karma would be up to that OL. I would do this no matter how "logical" your emotes were. The only exception is if a) a reasonable amount of time had passed since you disarmed the victim or b) you had attacked the person in such a way that their position had changed (i.e. successful kick/bash).

You have got to be kidding me.  

If this is in any sense a unified staff position, I would fully expect the code to be updated.

*edit* Ah, you're talking about the aggressor.  Still, I think this is superfluous.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Firstly, there are (or were as recently as last year) NPCs who will disarm YOU and take your weapon, without emotes. These NPCs were not weaponless at the time.

Secondly, why not simply add a check in the code for picking up weapons during combat? One of your hands would have to be empty. Such messages could be displayed:

You circle towards a yellowed bone sword, but (current opponent) the yellow gith cuts you off.

You circle towards a yellowed bone sword, but (current opponent) the yellow gith cuts you off, slashing you hard as he gains an advantage.

You circle towards a yellowed bone sword, scooping it up deftly.

Thirdly, I came up with the idea of imbedded emotes, not Quirk.

And lastly, I still say that the code offers enough in the way of emotes during combat for you to not have to emote additionally. If you want to and you can, feel free. I usually do, but if I don't, I am not going to go through a box of Kleenex over it.

[John]

I think a "guard <fallen weapon>" would work. It'd just have to let you guard while in combat and checked against "gets". It'd add more in the way of technique. Do you kick the person? Bash the person? It'd have to make a high enough attack would make the person temporarily not be able to save against getting the sword. Or with bash having to turned off altogether.

[Lazloth]

Eh?  Why waste the keystrokes to 'guard' something instead of just grabbing it, or is this some innate ability?  Whose perspective are you addressing: the disarmer or -ee's?

[John]

Whose perspective are you addressing: the disarmer or -ee's?

I was saying for the disarmer to guard it, but I was looking at it from a disarmee's POV. If the disarmer just "gets" it then there is absolutely no way for me to get it back in combat. That's going too far in the opposite direction from auto-getting.

[X-D]

I know there are many people who play warriors and are not going to argue for nerfing thier beloved disarm skill.

But I argue it is the skill itself that is broke not the way people play, Sure, grabbing up that weapon right away and being able to do it without penalty is downright lame, but thats it, the code does nothing to prevent it.

Also, as I said, there is No way at all for a non-warrior to defend against it, 0 none, zilch. And through whatever oversights, there exist weapons in the game that are IMPOSSIBLE IRL to disarm except by removing the person's hand or taking several minutes to hold them down and cut or untie the straps, But these weapons are also easily disarmed and tossed about.
I've watched warriors walk into a room with 3 halflings and 6 disarms later the halflings were all without weapons, this is one warrior.

It's silly, halflings are not stupid, nor are they low agility, six times in a row, and not one of them was able to go gee, he might try and disarm me, I better try and do something about that, why, because like pc's they are without recourse.

On picking up the weapon being code abuse, Well, somebody remove the 8 different npc types I could name right off the top of my head (but not gonna cause it may be considered ic info) from the game, they abuse the code.

[Morrolan]

Secondly, why not simply add a check in the code for picking up weapons during combat? One of your hands would have to be empty.

Yes, 7DV got to it before I did.  I think this is a good solution.  Though it would be a good thing -all- the time.

Want to use "get"?  Have a hand free.  Better rp or rs first.

Yes, it would be hard to get used to.  But I think I would like it, in the end.

Morrolan

[X-D]

The7DeadlyVenomz wrote:

Secondly, why not simply add a check in the code for picking up weapons during combat? One of your hands would have to be empty.  


Yes, 7DV got to it before I did. I think this is a good solution. Though it would be a good thing -all- the time.

Want to use "get"? Have a hand free. Better rp or rs first.

Yes, it would be hard to get used to. But I think I would like it, in the end.

Sounds good to me.