Requested Feedback on Webpage

[Sanvean]

ShaLeah sent in an idea for this and I liked the idea a lot, so I reworked it some. It's here: http://www.armageddon.org/intro/quickstart.html

When ready, it will be linked in on the main page, as well as the Intro section.

Feedback I would like:

1) Are there crucial links that have been left out? I left out some that didn't seem very important to me in order to make the links that are provided more meaningful. Bearing that in mind, are there places you would insert links or information?

2) Are there places this can be tightened/shortened? One of the crucial things about a Quickstart is that it needs to be short and to the point, as well as full of information. Are there things that could be lopped off without too much information being lost?

3) Is there anything else that should be edited/changed? What typos have I missed?

[My 2 sids]

Welcome to Zalanthas. If you don't want to go through the entire introductory section of the Armageddon MUD website, this Quickstart provides some game basics. The following truths about the world of Armageddon Mud are as common knowledge to Zalanthans as how to order a BigMac at McDonald's is to us.

One of the first things I'd like to say about this sight is I don't like what it's saying.  I think telling people this is a "quick way" to start, is just inviting people to try and beat the system.  :roll:  We all know players who have made it without reading everything in the docs before hand, but I don't think we want to necessarily promote this type of player.  :?  Instead I'd like this to either replace or be apart of the normal start up.  If you tell people from the get go that they can do this –instead- of the full introduction page, no one is going to use the full introduction page.  Although I think this page looks alright (I've not had time to go through it carefully yet) I think it needs to not try and look like it is circumventing the other reading.  

[Lasakar]

I like it.

My suggestion. Put the races, classes and so on to ONE link each. Too many links on one site is too badly arranged. From the link (e.g. races) make  branches to other the links (e.g. elves, humans). Some exits allready.

Something about riding is useful too. To many times I died while make a big mistake while riding (like using the way, not dismounting on time and so on). I can mail something I have written.

[Northlander]

The thieves link leads to the magick faq.

The first Tuluk link leads to help allanak.

I feel half-elves should be mentioned in the racial overview.

I'd note the existence of tribal religion.

[flurry]

I'd note the existence of tribal religion.

I was also going to say that.  

Also I might link to "spice", since it means something different than what a newcomer might think it does.

Oh, also perhaps a paragraph about how dangerous the desert is, and that people would be very wary of leaving the cities unprepared.

[Tamarin]

Put links to the noble houses maybe?

[Bestatte]

The thing about Kurac isn't -just- that they handle spice (and yes, identifying what spice IS would be useful to a newbie), but also that they are the primary producers of sandcloth and desert wear.

I didn't check any of the links, but I have only one comment about the content of the page:

* A Western idea that our players have a hard time abandoning is that there is no sexism on Zalanthas; women and men are treated equally. Keep in mind that the following would not happen in Armageddon: a man expressing shame at being beaten sparring by a woman; someone referring to women as needing protection or coddling; a woman being shamed for sexual promiscuity while a man is praised for it. Attitudes towards sexuality are broad. Homosexuality is common, and not seen as aberrant. Multiple sex partners are common among Zalanthans, particularly in the upper classes.

It seems to me this paragraph is emphasizing sex more than I'd prefer to see. I think the issue isn't that homosexuality is "common" and that multiple sex partners are "common" so much as neither of these behaviors are considered inappropriate or worthy of notice. By stating that they're common, an unsuspecting newbie might get the impression that this is a sex mud. All kidding aside, I really wouldn't want to give people that impression.

Perhaps soften it, by stating something like this instead:

Sexual practices among humanoids are broad and varied, and no emphasis is put on any behavior, any more than any other behavior. Homosexuality does not come with any social stigma, nor does having multiple sex partners. Sanctioned marriages do not occur among commoners, with the exception of merchant house family members for political purposes, though monogamous and/or multiple bonding between adults is common. Racial mixes are generally unheard of and treated with scorn by their peers, superiors, and subordinates.

In this way, it discusses more of the social aspects of family life, stresses that the 2 parents 2.3 kids ideal in RL doesn't exist as "normal" in the game, and still offers to newbies the idea that yes, sex happens on occasion. I would also skip the part, or change the part, about how what "won't" happen in Arm regarding women and men feeling shamed or whatever. It -does- happen, and in some cases with good logical IC reason. A man who comes from a family of brothers, in any society, will view women differently than a man who comes from a family of sisters. It's just the way it is, and I think it would be a disservice to suggest otherwise to the incoming newbie. And definitely keep the consent link in.

[Northlander]

Good call, Jazz. A link to more information on the nobility is definitely needed.

In the spirit of consistency, I'd append "larger than a ring" at the end of "a commoner may go a lifetime without seeing a metal object".

In the spirit of having it be a Quick Start, I'd remove the entire "A Western idea..." paragraph and make sure it's on the Introductory Information webpage instead. Consent rules are still mentioned under the game rules link. [EDIT: Bestatte has a great rewrite, there.]

Same with the "Though a range.." paragraph. Just mention somewhere that the harsh sun keeps fair-skinned a limited number.

Change the semicolon of "...can start in several cities; you are advised.." into a 'but'.

And that's all I have this time around!

[My 2 sids]

Also,

A Western idea that our players have a hard time abandoning is that there is no sexism on Zalanthas; women and men are treated equally. Keep in mind that the following would not happen in Armageddon: a man expressing shame at being beaten sparring by a woman;

I'd leave this part out or at least chop it down to a few sentences.  I think skip the "western idea" because equality is actually a -modern- term, not a western one.  Also, the examples you've given do actually accure in game.  The differences in the sexes is too great to try and take out everything.  If you really want -that- kind of equality... I say lets take out sexes all together.  

a woman being shamed for sexual promiscuity while a man is praised for it. Attitudes towards sexuality are broad. Homosexuality is common, and not seen as aberrant. Multiple sex partners are common among Zalanthans, particularly in the upper classes.

I'd leave this out too.  The GDB/players/Imms are still having debates over sexuality so I don't think it should be stated in this introduction section.  The idea that multiple sex partners are common in the upper classes is also confusing because -they- are the ones who most likely will become married.

[X-D]

The idea that multiple sex partners are common in the upper classes is also confusing because -they- are the ones who most likely will become married.

Probly not the place for debate on the subject, but nothing says that marriage in zalanthas has anything to do with sex or number of partners, if anything it is stated that marriage is most often for political reasons, so, they would be even more likly to have multiple partners, I see nothing confusing on that part of the doc, specialy if you remember to leave western/modern ideals out of the game, though it would probly amaze you to find out exactly how many long happily married couples are swingers IRL.

[Ayashah]

half-giants (a race originally produced by magick, known to be as stupid as they are large).

I thought it was basically accepted that though half-giants arent usually geniuses that they arent necessarily stupid. Just sorta frozen at the child stage or so in mentality.

[X-D]

Nope, they are DUMB, imagination, zilch, ability to problem solve, tiny, memory is alright, understanding abstract idea's, HAH.

They can learn though, slowly, and imitate fairly well, maybe even sounding and acting like a normal human for the most part after many years (I've known many retarded people that seem pretty darn normal in their 40's).

[Red Ranger]

Attitudes towards sexuality are broad. Homosexuality is common, and not seen as aberrant. Multiple sex partners are common among Zalanthans, particularly in the upper classes.

I disagree with the emphasis in this portion of the paragraph.  While it may not be the intent of the writer, this makes homosexuality and the taking of multiple sex partners seem the norm, which is an assertion that I don't think is necessarily valid.  My simplest suggestion is to just leave it at "Attitudes toward sexuality are broad."  

If specific mention of homosexuality and the taking of multiple sex partners is seen as necessary, I suggest Bestatte's modifications mentioned above.  If a more terse change is desired, I suggest changing the two instances of "common" to "not uncommon."  The two have different meanings.  In the context of the document, the word "common" suggests that those practices are the prevailing norm, while calling them "not uncommon" emphasizes that they represent a significant minority of sexual practices.

Red Ranger

[Agent_137]

First of all, I'd like to say a one page introductory is a great thing. I know many people who I try to get interested in arma, but when I say you have to read the docs...many pages of docs...they balk or play without reading. So while you'll get more people who don't know a WHOLE lot about arma on their first char, you'll get less people who don't know shit, and more people overall.


Second, you need to mention how the Byn is very receptive to n00bs. Had I knew that and joined the Byn with my first char, he would have lived longer and I would have had a better intro into Arma.

[John]

One of the first things I'd like to say about this sight is I don't like what it's saying. I think telling people this is a "quick way" to start, is just inviting people to try and beat the system.  We all know players who have made it without reading everything in the docs before hand, but I don't think we want to necessarily promote this type of player.

I like to consider myself a good roleplayer, and when I came to Arm I did read all the docs. However if I ever tried another mud, I wouldn't read all the docs (especially if they were to Armageddon proportions). So I don't think forcing players to read the entire docs is a good thing. Plus, the intro section was originally (IMO anyway) meant as a "quick-guide" to skip reading the entier website. Now, I think it's changed to a "help the newbie's questions" section instead of a quick-guide.

I like it Newbies will read the entire website if they see the game is worth it

Humans are the most prevalent and powerful race. Elves on Zalanthas are shifty, fiercely tribal, and prize the art of thievery. Dwarves on Zalanthas are hairless and devoted to a focus, a goal which they pursue at all costs. Other races you may see are muls (the sterile offspring of dwarves and humans, used as slaves) and half-giants (a race originally produced by magick, known to be as stupid as they are large). We advise that your first character be a human fighter-type in order to learn how to play the game - thieves and merchants are difficult to play.

I'd condense that too....

Humans are the most prevalent and influential race. Elves are fiercely tribal and prize the art of thievery. Dwarves are hairless and devoted to a goal which they pursue at all costs. Other races are muls (the offspring of dwarves and humans, used as slaves despite being sterile and dangerous) and half-giants (a race originally produced by magick, known to be as stupid as they are large).

I'd nix the entire "fighter-type" part from there, bring up the "getting hired" part and put it there. I also editted out "elves are shifty" as I thought "prize the art of thievery" explained it well enough.

We advise you to play a human-fighter if you wish to play an unemployed character as merchants and thieves are hard to play. However getting employed is encouraged while learning the basics of the game. Jobs include spies, hunters, entertainers, aides, crafters, physicians - your ingenuity and ability to play are your only limits. Merchant Houses and Noble Houses are good sources of employment but tend to only hire humans publicly.

Magick exists and is feared. Most magickers that your character will encounter are elementalists, focused on a single force, such as Water, Stone, Wind, or Fire. Sorcerers and Nilazi (Void elementalists) are feared, shunned, and reported to the nearest authority. In Tuluk, all magick is illegal except for the powers practiced by the Templarate. There is no religion in the city-states other than the worship of the Sorcerer-Kings, who do not tolerate other religions.

I think that helps hint that religion outside of the 2 cities does exist.

Merchant houses are also major powers, and guard both their monopolies and secrets well. House Salarr handles weapons and armor, House Kurac handles the drug known as spice, House Nenyuk handles banking, and House Kadius handles luxury goods. Smaller merchant houses exist, struggling for existence wherever they can find a niche.

Clears up the spice thing

I'd change what Bestatte wrote to:

Sexual practices are broad and varied, with no emphasis placed on it other than the disgust at interracial sex and their offspring. Neither homosexuality nor having multiple partners is thought of as abherrant by most societies in Zalanthas. With the exception of the Nobles and Merchant Families, marriage is not legalized, though monogamy and/or multiple bonding between adults is common. Physical and social equality exists between genders on Zalanthas with chivalry being thought of as abberrant by most of society.

It condenses the examples of "what won't happen" to a smaller format while getting the point across still.

Just some ideas

[Carnage]

I say lose the italics. It's more unpleasant for me to read, personally, than seeing font normally.

[Kalden]

I say lose the italics. It's more unpleasant for me to read, personally, than seeing font normally.

Definitely. Couldn't exactly put my finger on what was bothering me, but that's mostly it.

I also agree that the sexual stuff should be taken out. Seems like someone's personal opinion that Zalanthas is full of aberrant sexual behavior. The only thing we know for sure is that there aren't heavy societal biases against it.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Second, you need to mention how the Byn is very receptive to n00bs. Had I knew that and joined the Byn with my first char, he would have lived longer and I would have had a better intro into Arma.

We don't need to put all the newbies in one clan.  They can learn the game much more effectively if they are spread out.  The bit about recommending that people seek employment is quite enough.

[gfair]

I predict that this quick start page will grow so much that it will eventually replace the extended edition.

On the topic of sex, I would say "Sex is not the central purpose of this game.  That said, attitudes towards sex in Zalanthas are very open, homosexuality and polygamy are not taboo or uncommon.  Men and women are equal, so make sure you play your PC and treat others as gender-equal."

Things I'd add:

A second page with common command examples, if we're going to have a quick start page, we should also have a quick interface guide for reference.

A recommendation: Put in time learning the intricasies of the emote system, because old habits die hard and wrongly-formed emotes are (Jarring? A bad habbit?)

Emphasis on the fine line between IC and OOC, and what is not acceptable OOC.

A note on suicide.

[crymerci]

I like the idea behind this page, and I think that newbies will find it helpful.  I disagree with whomever said it was a cheat or a copout.  I do, however,  think there perhaps should be a disclaimer to the effect that "this is not meant to take the place of reading the rest of the game's documentation".

The only other issue I had was with this section:

Your character knows that both the nobility and the templarate are to be feared and avoided. Either group is capable of having a commoner killed for looking at them wrong. Your character believes that nobles are better than ordinary people by right of birth. You can spot nobles and templars by the metal rings they wear, as well as the fact that they are accompanied by guards.

Templars are to be respected and feared.  Nobles are to be respected, but not always feared.  Some inspire fear, some inspire love, some inspire awe, some inspire confusion and then there's a select few that people snicker at.  Yes, they can have you killed, but so can anyone with resources.  Unlike templars, they are not "the law" or "the man", and I think this is a distinction that new players often miss.  Let's not set them off on the wrong track.

Also, as far as rings and guards, this is a good general tip, but not everyone with a guard or even a silver ring is a noble.  I can't think of a better way to put it, though.

[gfair]

Also, as far as rings and guards, this is a good general tip, but not everyone with a guard or even a silver ring is a noble.  I can't think of a better way to put it, though.

"If you see other people bowing or paying courtesy to someone, calling them either "My Lord/Lady" or "Chosen Lord/Lady", chances are they are either a Noble or a Templar.

Does that work?

[EvilRoeSlade]

I agree wholeheartedly.  The purpose of the nobility is to give the common folk a base of power that is more friendly and approachable than the templarate.  A noble who is being feared and avoided is probably doing something wrong.

Your character knows that both the nobility and the templarate are to be feared and avoided. Either group is capable of having a commoner killed for looking at them wrong. Your character believes that nobles are better than ordinary people by right of birth. You can spot nobles and templars by the metal rings they wear, as well as the fact that they are accompanied by guards.

Your character knows that both the nobility and templarate have a great deal of power in the city state.  The templarate commands the militia of the city and wields dread powers, while the nobility are often a source of employment and economic stimulus.  Both should be treated with the appropriate respect and reverence, since they can make life hell for a commoner who displeases them.  Templars wear a set of robes that indicates their status, while nobles can be distinguished by the metal rings they wear and the guards that accompany them.

That's my suggestion.  A newbie could still mistake a merchant family member for a noble, but it is after all, only a quick start.

[EvilRoeSlade]

A Western idea that our players have a hard time abandoning is that there is no sexism on Zalanthas; women and men are treated equally. Keep in mind that the following would not happen in Armageddon: a man expressing shame at being beaten sparring by a woman; someone referring to women as needing protection or coddling; a woman being shamed for sexual promiscuity while a man is praised for it. Attitudes towards sexuality are broad. Homosexuality is common, and not seen as aberrant. Multiple sex partners are common among Zalanthans, particularly in the upper classes. If you intend to roleplay out adult scenes, please make sure you are aware of our consent rules.

I question whether this is even needed in the quick start.  To make it more concise, I propose that it be cut out.  We should teach newbies the general idea of the game world here, and avoid such specifics.  In the end, it's just a minor point that I think is better taught later on after they've managed to get on their feet for a bit.

[Kalden]

Yeah, I agree with ERS. Just leave that sex stuff out.

[Carida]

Well, as a rather brand-spanking new player. I'd have to say that I agree with My 2 Sids on the first part, calling itself a 'quickstart' would have made me think.. Ok I know all the basic stuff.. not going to bother to read the rest. And I would have only have read the other stuff until it was needed and I couldn't understand something.

Also, about the sexual stuff.. personally if I saw this when I first started playing it would have made me think that sex was rampant and this was why it was mentioned in the first place. And would have put me off. But this is just my opinion. And it might not put others off. Most of that stuff I just learned by playing.

But, if its really thought that that perticular section is needed, I would go with Bestatte's suggestion. Because the way it looks now, it does seem to hint that having multiple lovers is the only way to go.

OOoh also about the italic.. yes.. its yucky.. bothered my eyes.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Whoa.

[Quo]

I like the page a lot, and think it's an awesome idea. I'm convinced it will help new players to get over the barrier to apply for their first char faster, and for some it will make the difference between giving it a try and turning away discouraged.
These are the things that came to my mind:

- the paragraph on sexuality seems a bit stressing the subject, maybe more than needed for a brief introduction. I think it should mention that this isn't a mudsex-all-on-legs game (good job on that) and that there isn't much difference between women and men. To shorten it a bit I'd suggest removing the lines starting with "Attitudes towards sexuality [...] to [...] upper class. since I tend to think that they might be less important for a first char, and could be left for deeper reading later on. On the other hand, as ERS already suggested, so might the entire paragraph.

Someone else mentioned linking in a pointer to the byn, and I'd second that. From what I have heard it's probably the easiest and fastest way into a successful start in a newbie-friendly environment, so in a Quickstart guide I'd give it some emphasis. I'd go as far as giving a brief suggestion to prefer Allanak for the first char for the chance of joining the byn.

Also, I'd wish to see a more outspoken pointer to the helpers, maybe even as much as suggest to discuss the first char concepts and background questions with them. It makes a new player feel so much more welcome if someone is there to answer his questions and his curiosity, and those helpers are in pole-positions when it comes to make the difference if we're going to see a tolkienesque char or a true zalanthan newbie!

I'd end the page with a inviting note that new players shouldn't be intimidated by the application process and mention that the application process [link to http://www.armageddon.org/intro/intro.html] is described in the introductory section [link].

I would leave away the 'music' link, since earlier in the quickstart a combat char was suggested, and roleplaying a bard is a difficult thing. Anyone who'd consider something bard-like as his first char needs to dig a lot deeper than a quickstart intro anyway.

[Morrolan]

I stand against the Byn link.  There is nothing that makes the Byn more tiring than people who think that they have the 'right' to join it.

It is a mercenary company IC, and needs to be treated as such.  Not a sparring spa.  And with too many newbies, they reinforce each other's bad habits.

Morrolan

[Mr.Camel]

I agree with Morrolan. While the byn is a good start for a newbie, I think newbies learn better when spread about the clans and thus interact more with the experianced players.

[Quo]

[...] While the byn is a good start for a newbie, I think newbies learn better when spread about the clans and thus interact more with the experianced players.

For the first char, chances are smaller than for subsequent  (though certainly not impossible) that he'll make it into a clan. This I thought was where the byn offers to jump in.

I don't see it as a place to spar, but as a place where new chars that fit into its settings may learn to recover from their first typos (oops, I meant l not k, get a first glimpse on Armageddon style RP (which will make it a lot easier for their next char to be accepted into another clan), and even see excellent examples how to find ways to work with the code in an ic'ly fitting way, not against it.

[Candi]

LOL  
I'll get you my pretty! And yer little dog too.

(btw, the website looks great.  I think it's good to have anything that will help a new player become more comfortable. A quickstart is better than being over-whelmed after all, and if they want to become good/comfortable, they will read more.  If they don't want to become better, they probably won't be around long anyway. )

[Carnage]

The Byn is considered to be a newbie clan because it's very easy to join. Just throw your three hundred 'sid down and you're in. No interviews, nothing. It'll get you used to the disciplined atmosphere that most clans have, give you the chance to interact with veteran players, and generally put your face into the true grittiness of the game. Playing a gruff, 'sidless mercenary who's just looking for some money to pay off his debts or buy an ale will show you that.

[crymerci]

Just throw your three hundred 'sid down and you're in. No interviews, nothing.

That's not true.  There is an interview, or has been the few times I've had experience with the organization.  I once had a character rejected for the Byn because of her interview.  I think she said something like, "Look, I've got the three hundred 'sid, isn't that enough?"  It wasn't.  Mind you, she was being mouthy because she had reason to not want to join.

[Zhaira]

Two quick things:

1) This is great!  Good idea.

2) It says, "Arnageddon mud" at the bottom ;>

[Zhaira]

3) The mailto link for your name, San, has a ? in front of it.
I.e., mailto:?sanvean@ginka.armageddon.org

[flurry]

Actually..another thought about the sentence

"A Western idea that our players have a hard time abandoning is that there is no sexism on Zalanthas"

I think there's a grammar problem here.   As it's written, it looks like the Western idea that's hard to abandon is "there is no sexism on Zalanthas".  
And we don't want them to abandon that idea


On the other hand, in that same paragraph, I do really like those examples.   Up the thread, someone mentioned that those types of things do occur in the game, but I don't know - IMHO, those scenarios don't really fit the game world.   Another example that comes to mind is "throwing like a girl".  It would just be hard to make sense of a comment like that in Zalanthas (unless the idea was that someone was throwing like a -child-.)

[John]

Another example that comes to mind is "throwing like a girl".  It would just be hard to make sense of a comment like that in Zalanthas (unless the idea was that someone was throwing like a -child-.)

Throwing like an elf

[EvilRoeSlade]

It is a mercenary company IC, and needs to be treated as such.  Not a sparring spa.  And with too many newbies, they reinforce each other's bad habits.

Morrolan

That's exactly why I don't think we should encourage a concentration of newbies all in one clan.  I realize it's happening anyway, but I don't see why we need to encourage it.

[spawnloser]

"A Western idea that our players have a hard time abandoning is that there is no sexism on Zalanthas"

I think there's a grammar problem here.   As it's written, it looks like the Western idea that's hard to abandon is "there is no sexism on Zalanthas".  
And we don't want them to abandon that idea

Correct grammar/punctuation for that statement...would be hard, considering we're talking about a statement with passive voice which muddles things to begin with.  I suggest:

Some players have a hard time abandoning Western ideas, but to be clear, there is no sexism on Zalanthas.

[Angela Christine]

How about a line that says simply, "There is no sexism on Zalanthas."

It is a little simplistic and there are exceptions, but put that on a line by itself and I think it would get the point accross.

Or,

"Men and women are physically and socially equal, there is no sexism on Zalanthas.  Nor does anyone care about the living arrangements or sexual orientation of others.  There is plenty of prejudice and intollerance on Zalanthas, however it is based on regional, racial and class differences, not sex."

That gets accross the "no sexism" point without giving the impression that Zalanthans are a bunch of warm, loving, bunny-huggers.  It doesn't over-emphasize the "homosexuality is a-ok" point, giving the impression of a tollerant society, instead saying that no one cares about it.  Zalanthans don't tollerate homosexuality, they just don't give a damn one way or the other.  Marriage and family structure, which could be complicated to explain since it is different than what is common to most readers, is covered simply with the idea that no one cares about your "living arrangements."  It is vague and simplistic, but builds a foundation so they won't be shocked by the norms they encounter in the game world.  Short and sweet, just like me.  :p


Angela Christine

[Quo]

"Men and women are physically and socially equal, there is no sexism on Zalanthas.  Nor does anyone care about the living arrangements or sexual orientation of others.  There is plenty of prejudice and intollerance on Zalanthas, however it is based on regional, racial and class differences, not sex."

My favourite, so far.

[Dan]

Now, back on towards the topic. It is over there... ---->

[My 2 sids]

ShaLeah sent in an idea for this and I liked the idea a lot, so I reworked it some. It's here: http://www.armageddon.org/intro/quickstart.html

When ready, it will be linked in on the main page, as well as the Intro section.

Feedback I would like:

1) Are there crucial links that have been left out? I left out some that didn't seem very important to me in order to make the links that are provided more meaningful. Bearing that in mind, are there places you would insert links or information?

2) Are there places this can be tightened/shortened? One of the crucial things about a Quickstart is that it needs to be short and to the point, as well as full of information. Are there things that could be lopped off without too much information being lost?

3) Is there anything else that should be edited/changed? What typos have I missed?

Guess not

You can discriminate on the basis of race, class, wealth, affiliation, ability, magick, psionics, place of birth, profession, equipment, tribe, hair color, skin color, mutation, intelligence..but HEAVENS FORBID you discrimintate on the basis of sex. All the cultures on the game get together and decide this and all agree to stick to it? That seems odd to me. Very...odd.

[Angela Christine]

Of course you can descriminate on anything, it simply isn't the norm.  Obviously a quickstart is going to concentrate on the norms, not on weird fringe elements.

Who discriminates on hair or skin color?  The only time I've seen anything close is if the color is and obvious sign of mutation.  Mutants do get some descrimination, including the blue and purple skinned muties.  Ok, some people scoff at very pale skin, but that isn't so much systematic discrimination as evidence that the pallid freaks are sheltered to an incredible degree.

The problem with incorperating things that are contentious in the real world into the game world is that it will politisise the game world OOCly.  We don't have IC abortion clinics either.  Just look at the trouble people have getting a grip on Zalanthan slavery.

The other problem is that physical stats are not modified by sex, so it would make sense for sex discrimination to have unfolded the same way.  It would be just as likely for men to be considered the inferior or weaker sex.  


AC

Discrimination is based on perceived differences. And men and women are obviously different in most cases. I have no issue with men being considered the weaker sex.  Just saying that this one particular difference is not NORMally noticed by the populace seems strange. It seems more like a playability vs realism thing once again. Don't want to scare off the females etc. So make it so the males are considered the weaker sex, the guys will still probably stay

[Kalden]

Err... why would males be the weaker sex?

Sexual intercourse itself puts the guy in control. It's a hell of a lot easier for a man to rape a woman than a woman to rape a man. That's beside the fact that deadbeat dads abound, and poor women are left to raise their children alone.

The biggest reason a woman would be perceived as weaker is because they have to bear the children, a significant and vital burden for many groups in Zalanthas.

Edit: To me, it seems like women want to follow the traditional, 'realistic' way a woman is. Maternal, sensitive, and usually less dominant than men. You see a hell of a lot of 'aide' women. Kinda like a real-life secretary. Women are usually smaller than men in-game. Petite female NPCs are all over the place. Ect, ect, ect.

Personally, I think it's easier just to have men be men, and women be women, with notable exceptions. Makes it easier to RP.

[flurry]

Discrimination is based on perceived differences. And men and women are obviously different in most cases. I have no issue with men being considered the weaker sex.  Just saying that this one particular difference is not NORMally noticed by the populace seems strange. It seems more like a playability vs realism thing once again. Don't want to scare off the females etc. So make it so the males are considered the weaker sex, the guys will still probably stay

Yes, discrimination is based on perceived differences, but it's also fairly arbitrary.  I'm sure playability is part of the motivation, but it seems as reasonable to me that there's little sexism on Zalanthas as that there's little bias based on which hand you write with on Earth.

I think part of the issue is the sexism is so ingrained into our lives in ways that we hardly notice, that it's hard to imagine a world where it doesn't exist as we see it.  But I don't think there's anything inherently unrealistic about it.

[flurry]

Edit: To me, it seems like women want to follow the traditional, 'realistic' way a woman is. Maternal, sensitive, and usually less dominant than men. You see a hell of a lot of 'aide' women. Kinda like a real-life secretary. Women are usually smaller than men in-game. Petite female NPCs are all over the place. Ect, ect, ect.

It works both ways.   Male characters tend to fall into traditional gender roles just as much as female characters do.   It seems to be almost unavoidable, but it would be nice to see more blurring of the lines.  

Women and men being equal in Zalanthas doesn't mean that Zalanthan men are similar to Earth men, but the Zalanthan women are just more masculine.  

Nor does it mean the Zalanthan women are similar to Earth women, but the Zalanthan men are just more feminine.

For whatever reason, the average Zalanthan man and the average Zalanthan woman are statswise about the same.   I don't think this has to mean that they are indistinguishable in terms of behavior.

[Angela Christine]

Err... why would males be the weaker sex?

Why not?  If their strength is equal, then the weakness is percieved, not actual.

For one thing men have this dangling apendage that is vulnerable and extreemly sensitive to pain.  You can briefly incapacitate a man with blow or firm squeeze to the appendage.  Meanwhile women keep their sensitive reproductive organs safely tucked away.  Breasts are out there, possibly even dangling, but breast are not nearly as vulnerable a target as a penis.  Having your reproductive organs on the outside could be seen as a weakness.

Men are unable to bear children.  Women control which men get to have children, how many and when.  Unless the woman is a slave or somehow incapacited, the man can't have children until a woman consents to it.  Sure, woman need a sperm doner, but it is much easier to convince someone to donate sperm than it is to convince them to donate the use of their body for a year.  Heck, you can get a man drunk and take advantage of him, but you can't -keep- a woman drunk for her entire pregnancy unless you want your child to be an idiot.  Being dependant on another person to carry on your bloodline could be seen as a weakness.

Men are expendable.  If a tribe of 100 men and 100 women is attacked, and half of the people are killed, the tribe will die if all the women are killed but not if all the men are killed.  The men would have to find new mothers for their future offspring, and those mothers would have their own traditions that would warp the culture and history of the tribe.  The woman could adopt a few males into the tribe, just a handfull will be enough to fertilize all the woman without being able to impose their own tradions and culture.  Or the women could seek out sperm donors from other tribes or city folk, and  completely avoid contaminating their village with outsiders.  A tribe can survive as a tribe much the way a pride of lions does: a few males and many females. Extra males are unnecessary.  Being expendable is a weakness.

Men need women more than women need men.  The more needy sex is the weaker.


* * *

Note:  I'm not saying that males actually -are- weaker or inferior to females.  These are just examples of reasons why they could be considered weaker, inferior or more dependant.  On Zalanthas males and females are physically equal, so any discrimination is going to be based on contrived reasoning, not facts.


Think about bears.  I used to live in bear country, up in the rocky mountains.  The male bears are a little larger than the females, but it doesn't matter, when in the woods we were -much- more concerned about encountering a female with cubs than a male.  A bear with cubs or a bitch with pups is much more dangerous than a male.  The cubs aren't a source of weakness, they are a source of calculating berzerker rage.  When a mother is fighting to protect her young she doesn't hold anything back.  We've all heard stories about petite women lifting cars off their babies, imagine what they could do if they were as innately strong as men.  


AC

(Note: Don't lift cars.  The part of the story you don't hear is the women having to go to the hospital after because they've torn themselves up).

[My 2 sids]

Ok, even though this thread is nul and void now anyways (as the quickstart has already been posted) I do feel that maybe there is something not a lot of people have thought about.  What does it mean to have both sexes equal?

Men are, by nature, designed to have more muscle and just be bigger over all, than women.  Women have a lower center of gravity and wider hips then men, and so can't run as fast or do as much with their lower body then men.  Then there is fat.  Women have almost 10% more body fat then men.  It all comes down to the babies.  Women who do start to match men physically do so at the price of being able to have children.  Realistically, this means women shouldn't be able to have as many children as we do in this world and the percentage for something going wrong should be much greater.  "F-me" bots aside, women wouldn't have hips or breasts or curves if they are the same as men.

[spawnloser]

It doesn't matter, sids, what things are like in the real world...a woman can be built just as sturdy/strong as a man in Zalanthas.  That is the fact of the matter, code-wise, in the game...period.  Biology as you understand it is irrelavent.

[Quirk]

It doesn't matter, sids, what things are like in the real world...a woman can be built just as sturdy/strong as a man in Zalanthas.  That is the fact of the matter, code-wise, in the game...period.  Biology as you understand it is irrelavent.

But it does argue a redesign of the female form, because normal physics are still in effect. Women would either need to look very like guys, or to be carrying even more muscle to make up for the extra body fat they have to shift around. It's possible I suppose that guys are carrying more fat instead, but that would seem at odds with the harsh environment and difficulty of finding enough food.

It's a question of how to put a spin on the world that makes it reflect the code.

Quirk

[Sanvean]

Having just gotten an email from a player saying that I hadn't incorporated any of the feedback, I wanted to provide some information.

I would estimate I incorporated about 75% of the suggestions that
were made. Some of the changes were made the first day the thread was
posted, as people suggested changes, while the rest were made a week
later, when I took the time to go through the thread to read each reply
through overall, and then went through a second time to incorporate
things. Changes included wording, rearrangement, adding additional links, etc.

No, I did not take every single suggestion. Since some of them were contradictory, that's somewhat impossible. Others I did not include because they went against the notion that the Quickstart should be shorter, rather than longer. I highly appreciated the feedback and thought I had shown that appreciation by using it. To be accused of betraying the players by disregarding their input surprised me more than a little and I'm confused about where this misconception came from and whether it's widely spread or not.

[Carnage]

Zalanthans as how to order a BigMac at McDonald's is to us.

I really don't care for that. It just seems too...out there and almost like it's supposed to be a joke.

Also, get rid of the bold. The bullets are enough, the bold just gets obnoxious.

[crymerci]

Heh.  That was quick.