The sandstorms of yore...

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I've often wondered what happened to the old sandstorms that would pop up between Allanak and Luir's, and just this morning, I and another player were discussing the greatness of these storms. These storms were the type that made a ranger required if you wanted to go out into the desert very far, and I think the game would see a great boon from their return.

The old sandstorms were like the pitch of night, and you could not know where you were going if you were not a ranger. They were harsh, and not an instant death trap. They need to make a return.

[mansa]

I think they should return.  Oh, they were fun to try and go through.
However, I suggest that the limitation of being 'CODED GUILD = RANGER' not be the only limit.  I suggest that ONE of the subguilds possible to pick should be able to find their way through sandstorms, aswell.

Perhaps being 'Caravan Guild' or / and 'Hunter' and / or 'Nomad'.

Thoughts?

[Vositus]

Yay.

And I mean that as like, yes, not yay as in woohoo...

[Seeker]

Mansa wrote:

I suggest that ONE of the subguilds possible to pick should be able to find their way through sandstorms, aswell.

Perhaps being 'Caravan Guild' or / and 'Hunter' and / or 'Nomad'.

Very good idea.  I would weigh heavily in favor of Caravan Guide for this ability.


Seeker

[Forest Junkie]

There are still such sandstorms.

Instance, in a fairly recent situation, I encountered the largest sandstorm I have -ever- seen. This bitch was insanely large. (over fifty rooms, if I am not mistaken) It's range spanned from just under old luirs to the walls of red storm.

Conclusion, there are still these sorts of storms afaik. Possibly they are just a tad rarer? In that sense, then, I would agree that maybe they should become more commonplace, eh?

[j0ram]

Being said other player involved in the original conversation, I am of course, pro-storms of old.

I think it added a great element to the game. The deserts were scary places where those who were not desert-apt (ie rangers or to a lesser degree a nomad-like subguild). Should a warrior/thief/assassing/merchant be worried about going out into the desert alone? Hell yes! Rangers are the ones who live their life in the desert. They're the ones that know how to survive, they know the landmarks, they can walk the sands with their eyes closed.

Does this limit the non-rangers? To a degree, yes. But in a realistic degree. You don't see rangers picking pockets, or haggling in the markets (though this is now possible with subguilds). Let the rangers do their thing! I'm sure there will always be plenty of rangers for hire, to lead those caravans and travelers braving the sands.

[j0ram]

Instance, in a fairly recent situation, I encountered the largest sandstorm I have -ever- seen. This bitch was insanely large. (over fifty rooms, if I am not mistaken) It's range spanned from just under old luirs to the walls of red storm.

Part of it is not only the storms, but how they worked. They were like the like the darkness was until not too long ago.

If you were in the desert, in a storm, and you were not of the ranger class, if you typed north, you wouldn't necessarily go north. You'd go off in some random direction, because you couldn't see.

The premise was that the rangers knew the land, they were experienced with travel in the storms, and could thus navigate them.

[Tmp]

I love it when hardcore people like to add in all the stuff that makes normal mortals like me cringe from thinking of even playing Arm. If I were magically transported to Zalanthas and forced to live the rest of my life there, I wouldn't have a problem with it ... but as it stands now, it's just a game with an every increasing timesink (if the hardcores get their way).

[Forest Junkie]

I love it when hardcore people like to add in all the stuff that makes normal mortals like me cringe from thinking of even playing Arm. If I were magically transported to Zalanthas and forced to live the rest of my life there, I wouldn't have a problem with it ... but as it stands now, it's just a game with an every increasing timesink (if the hardcores get their way).

What do you mean? I suppose you are inferring that they just want the game to be made harder?

In either case, having those fifty-league strong storms seems fairly realistic, and it puts traveling by oneself at a greater risk.

I am torn though. I do like the storm idea, but then again, one must think of playability issues. I don't think I have a clear opinion for either side, so I'll shut up.

[Dan]

I think that these are around still, just a little rarer. Stay around Cenyr and Tan Serek (sp?) and you might see them.

Overall though I am in favor of harsh storms 'outside the walls'...

[j0ram]

I am torn though. I do like the storm idea, but then again, one must think of playability issues. I don't think I have a clear opinion for either side, so I'll shut up.

The thing is... what business does a merchant (just as an example) have doing out alone in the desert? About as much as a ranger does sneaking through the city picking pockets.

If you want to play a desert going character, you play a ranger. That's what rangers are. If you want to play a whiran, you don't make a burglar, do you?

[Krath]

The thing is... what business does a merchant (just as an example) have doing out alone in the desert? About as much as a ranger does sneaking through the city picking pockets.

If you want to play a desert going character, you play a ranger. That's what rangers are. If you want to play a whiran, you don't make a burglar, do you?

Fucking Right. I agree 100% with this, and I am pro Storms of Yore. Lets make this game as realistic as possible. You want to travel the desert alone make a ranger. Nuff said.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

BAM!

No uber-gith, no monolithic sand creepers that can run faster than a speeding arrow, no dumb ass death traps (not that the latter is in the game at the moment, at least not dumb ass ones), no unrealistic creatures. Just realistic storms. Make the scrab the way they used to be, and give me my damned storms.

Bam!

[j0ram]

no unrealistic creatures

Yes! I want to see more bears, and lions. And a couple coyote. And sharks! We need more sharks.

[Krath]

You know what pisses me off..The people that Vote NO and dont give a god damn reason why. Voice your opinions even if it is just saying, Yeah i agree with So and So.

[mansa]

You know what pisses me off..The people that Vote NO and dont give a god damn reason why. Voice your opinions even if it is just saying, Yeah i agree with So and So.

The original poster of this thread gave an 'easy way out' with the option of the poll.  Remember, people are lazy and will not do extra work required to get a real discussion done.



Now, on to the thread:

I believe we are all talking of the non-karma classes right now.  We're -not- going to bring up elementalists, and start a discussion on whether the Rukkians or the Elkrosians should get that perk.  It's something that the immortals of Armageddon should decide, if the original thought is returned to the game.


Should those sandstorms return?

I voted yes, but, in reality, I don't really care.  It doesn't affect me or my current play, as of right now.  It might, once my current PC dies and I move on to other things...but.  Meh.
It will require people to hire or gang up in groups before going out into the wastes.  I don't think people do that enough, as of yet.  And there are many reasons for that.  Perhaps it's because they don't have a 'need' to fulfill.

Other than that.   Vote yes for Mansa.  Because without him, nothing will be the same.

[Forest Junkie]

I am torn though. I do like the storm idea, but then again, one must think of playability issues. I don't think I have a clear opinion for either side, so I'll shut up.

The thing is... what business does a merchant (just as an example) have doing out alone in the desert? About as much as a ranger does sneaking through the city picking pockets.

If you want to play a desert going character, you play a ranger. That's what rangers are. If you want to play a whiran, you don't make a burglar, do you?

Dude, in no way was I referring to waltzing your merchant's ass out of the gates in a pussy storm. I was referring to the times when a pc NOT a ranger must leave for ooc reasons, yet can't, because they do not have the skill. I agree with you, anyone -not- trained in desert survival should likely keep their ass where it belongs.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

And sharks! We need more sharks.

>You walk west.

>look
The great desert [NSEW]
All around you, the great desert stretchs out; miles and miles of sand dunes billow here, lapping like gentle waves of ground stone. Very little greenery is here, and the red sun shines down with a fierceness that almost terrifies one. The world is harsh. Zalanthas is harsh, and gritty, and real.
A grey rock has been dropped here.
A yellow kank stands here.

>You feel the sand shift.

>You think :
"What the fuck?"

>The gritty ranger looks about quietly, his grey eyes narrowing sharply, his index finger drumming nervously upon the hilt of his cross-hilted, bastard sword.

>In the distance, a grey fin cuts through the sand, gliding towards you silently.

>You think:
".....what the fuck?!?"

>look
The great desert [NSEW]
All around you, the great desert stretchs out; miles and miles of sand dunes billow here, lapping like gentle waves of ground stone. Very little greenery is here, and the red sun shines down with a fierceness that almost terrifies one. The world is harsh. Zalanthas is harsh, and gritty, and real.
A grey rock has been dropped here.
A yellow kank stands here.
A grey fin cuts through the sand here.

>The gritty ranger blinks, backing away from a grey fin.

>You tell a yellow kank, in sirishish:
"Uhm, we gotta g..."

>A grey sandshark lunges from the dunes, its maw wide, rows of teeth gleaming.

>A grey sandshark misses you with its bite.

>flee

>flee

>flee

>flee

>flee

>flee

[X-D]

I have not voted.

I think that the older sandstorms did last too long for playability with current code of storms/travel/mounts/classes/hitch/follow/no lag npc's and the fact that the npc's can still see even if you can't.

Address those issues and more then bring them back.

[j0ram]

I have not voted.

I think that the older sandstorms did last too long for playability with current code of storms/travel/mounts/classes/hitch/follow/no lag npc's and the fact that the npc's can still see even if you can't.

Address those issues and more then bring them back.

Hmm, one note missing that I'm if everyone knows... with the old cold, if you were following a ranger, you'd stay following him. It wasn't like the darkness where the person you're following goes north, you go east.

[X-D]

yes, -used- to keep following the ranger.

My last two rangers now have left people behind during storm/dark, not very useful if you ask me.

[j0ram]

yes, -used- to keep following the ranger.

My last two rangers now have left people behind during storm/dark, not very useful if you ask me.

I think the idea was to have -all- of the old code relating to this be put back in. Would be rather pointless if you couldn't follow the rangers.

[Agent_137]

While I'm in favor of making navigating the desert a lot more difficult if you aren't trained in it . . . ie ranger, etc. . . I'm also somewhat adverse to the opinion of, "We should go back to the old way because the new way sucks."

Now, granted, that might be the case in some instances. . .but in most other instances it's time to move the feck on.

Oddly, though, in this case...I have to agree with Venomz.

If you follow so blindly that you will follow them off a cliff with no check, then damnit, I should be able to follow that person in sandstorm, blindfolded, in pitch black, or even with my eyes dangling by their optic nerves.

But, granted, huge sandstorms making movement in a certain direction impossible without a trained guide (shouldn't JUST be rangers, but should be limited) is good...but the goodness is nullified if you can't follow them accurately.

I voted YES.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

"We should go back to the old way because the new way sucks."

I agree that I don't like that sort of attitude. However, in this case, the old way was never flawed. It was, simply, a great, simple feature that was taken out because folks thought that the mud would be better for it. Not long after it was taken out, the complaints about the level of the game's harshness decreasing arose.

Coincedence? I think not.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I think they should return.  Oh, they were fun to try and go through.
However, I suggest that the limitation of being 'CODED GUILD = RANGER' not be the only limit.  I suggest that ONE of the subguilds possible to pick should be able to find their way through sandstorms, aswell.

Perhaps being 'Caravan Guild' or / and 'Hunter' and / or 'Nomad'.

Umm... no.

Some things just don't belong in subguilds.

[gfair]

Didn't the board see a vote or thread against all the sandstorms a while back?  Are we seeing a flip-flop, or just the other side of the coin expressed in this thread?

I've seen a lot of sandstorms within the past couple months.

[John]

The thing is... what business does a merchant (just as an example) have doing out alone in the desert? About as much as a ranger does sneaking through the city picking pockets.

I agree with that to a degree. But we're faced with the problem of PCs. Can I hire a guide to lead me from place X to place Y. Yes. Can I hire a PC to lead me from place X to place Y? At best there is only a handful of PCs playing characters with that knowledge. So if I only have unusual hours, I'm screwed. That's the problem. You might have most of the player-base knowing something, but there are only so many people playing characters who would guide you there.

It's like having a crafter, and only being able to sell to PCs. Your screwed because you have to find PCs who want the item, your doubly screwed if you play unusual hours.

What did I vote? Bring em back :twisted: I'm just offering another opinion Also. There might be an IC reason they're not here.

People were complaining about how after 1 or 2 days from reboot Allanak was forever surrounded by a sandstorm. I always thought it was those damn magickers doing it Did I ever get any evidence to come to this conclusion? Nope. Just my overactive imagination.

One change I would like, is if your with a group of people, make it so you can "see" them. Obviously if your "follow"ing them successfully, you can somehow detect them (and I can't see a daisy chain of people holding hands all the way from Luir's to Allanak). So yes, if for code reasons, you can only "see" the person your "follow"ing it would still be an improvement (even if it's only an sdesc and not an mdesc).

I'd also like to see harsh sandstorms not sitting right on top of a city 24/7 (without a damn good IC reason). This is mainly a playability issue. A big sandstorm for an IC day or two surrounding a city? Sure. But I'd rather see them situated more between Luir's and Allanak.

That way you don't have the situation where everyone becomes city folk. Cause that's what happened last time. Everyone started tavern sitting. So if you have SOME area around the city your hunting types can go, then you don't have the situation where everyone tavern sits, but you still need guides.

[sacac]

I played during that time, Made a elf I believe.. pickpocket
Travelled the desert and stole from every city.. Except.. I never made it to another walls after I hit the storm.

So, I picked yes, Because as it is.. everyone either has torches or types out the directions without ever actually being a PC about it. And getting lost as it is..
And the bull about rangers being the esiest to employ.. why do I never get to be a ranger that lives til my few coins run out?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Didn't the board see a vote or thread against all the sandstorms a while back?

I think the vote concerned the continual sandstorms. The ones I am talking about were not constant. They might have lasted one or two hours real time, but not for days real time.

And it's not so much that I really want to see sandstorms a million times a day, but I certianly want to see them more often, and I want to see them function in a way that puts the ranger in control, IE: The pitch-night sort of sandstorms. If a subclass of any sort got this ability as well, I could see nomads with it.

[Anonymous]

Didn't the board see a vote or thread against all the sandstorms a while back?  Are we seeing a flip-flop, or just the other side of the coin expressed in this thread?

Neither.  You are probably referring to a thread I made about the storms around Red Storm because they seemed to last a little too long for my tastes.  I can't say if it's still the same or not, or if I was just having a string of bad luck.

[ashjpd]

GUILD_MERCHANT  (Character)  


Merchants are the blood which binds the world together, the carriers of desperately needed goods from one land to another. Usually descendants of the old Dune Traders, merchants quickly learn the ways of the desert, the most profitable trade routes, and possess a handy charm for making friends of even the most bitter templar.

Merchants possess the ability to ride animals and pilot the argosies that cross the lands between villages and cities. They are also skilled at assessing an object's value, getting excellent prices from all but the stingiest traders, and noticing every detail around them. Furthermore, they have great talent in many forms of crafting, from simple cups to intricate forms of weaponry.

While faced with a hard life, merchants are often the richest people in any given city-state. The most sure way to find work as a merchant is to travel widely, joining caravans at every opportunity. Whenever he/she can, a merchant ought to find a village's or a city's traders and learn the prices of things there. By compiling this knowledge (knowing true item costs can be invaluable in doing this), the merchant can devise superior trade routes and make a great deal of money.

Now I am playing a merchant right now, and if I might say, I think they know the deserts as much as Rangers do in general. Not every dune and hole and such, but the general way of finding there way around.

"They quickly learn the ways of the desert." Is my favorite part. I am not saying that they would be able to see in the storm, but they would at least be able to make there way through it.

Now, the merchant wouldn't necesarily know every trail and shortcut to certain places and such, but they would know some parts of some of the world. With my character, I chose not for them to know many, even any routes to places in the known world, cause me, as the player did not know them that well. But after a few trips with escorts and stuff, I would see that they could learn quickly from how the guide/escort leads them. I would think they have a keen sense for it.

I did not play arm back when these types of storms were around. Not exacltly sure of what they are, could someone explain it a little more clearly? I suspect that they are your general storm, where "stinging sand swirls about you" and that the go on for 30-50 rooms. Is this correct? If so, then I know they have been around in the most desert of places, like that have been mention in earlier posts.

I think we should think about the system that generates the storms, it is a random weather generator, right folks? I mean, the system chooses when there will be more of them storms, maybe the immortals could change it slightly, or something of the sort? I am not sure, I am not one of them systems/coding type of guys, I just enjoy arm as a hobby while at home.

Thanks.

[X-D]

The storms spoken of would often last for real life weeks and cover most of the world with "Blinding sand swirls around, You can't see a thing!"

[Angela Christine]

I'd say yes to blinding sandstorms, but I think they should have a timer on them so they only last 3 IC hours and not happen more than once or twice per OOC day.  

It is really irksome if you plan a clan RPT and then a 3 day sandstorm strands you in the city.  You can't just put the mission off until the weather clears, because most of the PCs will be "sleeping" then.  You need to schedual a new RPT, days or weeks later.  You can't necessarily find a ranger-guide when you need one.  

Worse is when the blinding sandstorm happens half-way through the mission, and you don't happen to have a skilled guide with you.  (Just being a ranger isn't enough, you also have to actually know where you are and how to get home.)  Then you wind up with the ICly akward situation of a troop of Tor Scorpions being lead around by one of the Byn Runners they brought along as cannon fodder, because that's the only Ranger in the group.  :roll:  If you don't happen to have a ranger in your group you can't move until the weather clears, and you can't log out where you are because you aren't a ranger!

So yes to blinding sandstorms, but restrict them to half an hour or so of real time, so that people don't get trapped in untennable positions.


AC

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I can dig that, AC.

[Twilight]

Okay, I see two things being discussed here, whether you know it or not.

There was a time when sandstorms did not cover the known world.  For instance, if you were on the Salt Flats, or the wastes around Allanak, you would never, ever, encounter a coded sandstorm with the little room emotes as you move.   However, certain zones (2 that I remember) were hard coded to have permanent sandstorms.  There would always be a sandstorm in that zone.  Always.  Now, visibility was reduced to seeing your own room, and being able to look two rooms away in those rooms.  So, yes, you could see.  If you were a ranger in one of these zones, you could always move in the direction you wanted to go in.  If you were not a ranger, if you tried to go south, for instance, you might end up going to go north, east or west.  It only affected the person actually typing in the commands, so you could follow a ranger with no difficulty.  It was also incredibly annoying to get to Red Storm with anything other than a ranger, not a mention a very good way to die if you got anywhere near the Silt Sea with a non-ranger.

When coded sandstorms were put in that spanned all the zones, or shortly before, the spin nature of the permanent sandstorm zones was removed.  This was an upgrade to the weather system.  Sandstorms could be anywhere, and they could have varying levels of intensity.  All the way up to blinding, where you could not see the room you are in, or in any direction.  The only time a sandstorm functioned as a spin room since that change is when it was combined with darkness, which has always had the same spin function, although getting lost is a bit more frequent with darkness.  It has never had, at least to my knowledge, the spin component that the permanent zones had, of and by itself.

Now, I have always thought that the part about rangers always being able to know where they are, in the help file, related back to the permanent sandstorm zones of old.  When getting lost in sandstorms was taken out, yes, they essentially did loose an ability, that only they had (to my knowledge).  It did not seem to be replaced under the new sandstorm weather code with anything.

Now having blinding sands, where you cannot see the room you are in, is different than the getting lost code of old.  Blinding sandstorms still exist.  Maybe a blinding sandstorm should have a spin component, however, it would be just so insanely harsh.  Under the old system, at least you could still see, know where you were, know the dangers of moving, and eventually maybe get back to where you were.  If you added spin to blinding storms, you would take one step away from the steel dragon, figure out the storm is really bad, and probably not every make it back to Allanak until the storm cleared.  Just not playable, considering how long storms last.

I'd rather rangers be able to see the room they are in, even in storm conditions that blind all other classes, as a replacement for what they once had, rather than add back in the spin component.  Thats why I voted no.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Hmmm...

Maybe this would work. What I have been talking about is a manner in which to make the outdoors dangerous without the use of traps and pitfalls and uber gith. I personally say that I would like the spin factor. Certian rooms could simply be defined as no_spin, and that would solve the step outside factor.

I want the newbie killable scrab back, and the sandstorms. When I was playing, I was able to get where I had to go, but I had a ranger. Folks would know not to step outside without a ranger or nomad.

[Twilight]

The thing is, there were only two areas where this code was active before.  Places with permanent sandstorms.  There was still a massive amount of the world that was not impacted, and thus left open for the other players to travel freely.  Adding this in to anywhere there was a sandstorm would be over the top, at least in my opinion.  People live out there in the wilds just fine, whether nomads, desert elves, bandits or whatever, and they are not all rangers, by any means.  Just in select places it is a bit harder, like those places with permanent sandstorms.

In a place like Zalanthas, there are a wide variety of people who have the skills needed to survive in sandstorms of varying intensity.  They aren't all rangers.  The spin rooms, given the frequency of sandstorms under the new weather code, would just be totally icky.

[Summer]

I'd like to see shorter storms, I don't mind how severe they are, or if they turn you around (so long as you can step outside the gates and then back in, our even better, tell from inside the gates). But I really would like to see the time sandstorms go for lessened. Not being able to play for 3-4 hours real time sucks when I can only play for a couple of hours a night. Also, being an Aussie, like John, I don't often have the alternative of tavern sitting unless I want to do it all by my lonesome.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Would you then be in support of adding those sandstorms back into those places, then? At least the one surrounding Red Storm. It wasn't always so bad that you couldn't see the room, but it was typically exceptionally dangerous to try to 'run to Red Storm' back in the day, and I think the storm gave it its own little privacy factor.

[Twilight]

I would be in favor of adding in the turn around factor in the current zones that have permanent sandstorms.  Although, perhaps getting turned around 1 in 5 times or so, rather than 1 in 2 that it used to seem to be (figures approximate).  It would be nice to actually get where you intended to go eventually, albeit with an amount of danger, rather than wander around indefinately.

[Callisto]

We don't need more/longer sandstorms.

What we need is for them to be very short and less frequent, so as to allow more freedom of play, but made MUCH more of a threat when they do come along. The idea of needing a guide across the wasteland should not depend on them being able to walk through a storm without walking in a random direction, but rather on them being able to avoid dangers and acquire food and liquid in dire situations.

When a storm becomes so awful you're blinded by it, your first thought shouldn't be 'how am I going to find a way home from here?', it should be 'how can I survive this storm?'. When something like that rolls in, your fears aren't going to be with making it to Tuluk on time for the subtle bunny hugging convention, it should be of becoming dehydrated or horribly burned by the tiny grains of stone being whipped against your skin with enough force to remove paint from walls.

These are situations well-suited to being taken care of by your local ranger, his skill in survival against all odds in the most brutal landscapes in the known would should be what makes a ranger* much coveted by mercenaries and merchant caravans alike. This is not going to happen by making sandstorms more inconvenient, it is just going to reduce them to glorified crossing guards, leading people from storm entrance to storm exit, where upon they will revert to their former role as second class fighters.

If you want to make storms more realistic and carry more weight then a minor inconvenience, not to mention make the role of a ranger* more important for what it should be, you need the storms to be FAR less common and FAR more deadly. I'm thinking extreme stamina drain when attempting to move around in a storm and a frightening amount of dehydration while exposed to such a brutal climate, since it would place far more emphasis on being prepared and having someone along able to handle such a crisis. A tent wouldn't hurt, either, provided you're with someone able to raise and secure it in such hellish conditions.

The bottom line is storms that force people to wait around for a long time are not productive to playability, not everyone can invest that extra thirty minuets to wait for the storm to die down. This sort of addition would be nothing more then a friendly reach around for a select few who measure their Armageddon ePenis by how 'hardcore'  they want the game to be.

You want sandstorms? Make sandstorms rare enough and deadly enough that people fear them for what they should be and not for the mildly irritating and overly common inconveniences they are now. Everyone gets a more dangerous Zalanthas, without forcing people with extremely limited play time to tavern sit during Armageddon dead time.

*  And by ranger, I mean your average dune walker or tribal, not the class. Those of you touting your "ranger required" stuff need to remember that 'ranger' is a skill set, not everyone who is a dune walker is going to have the ranger skill set and not everyone with the ranger skill set is a dune walker. I will throw in my support to give the currently ranger-only trait of navigation to a few sub-guilds, if only to blur the lines between classes and offer more character customization.

[Anonymous]

What we need is for them to be very short and less frequent, so as to allow more freedom of play, but made MUCH more of a threat when they do come along. The idea of needing a guide across the wasteland should not depend on them being able to walk through a storm without walking in a random direction, but rather on them being able to avoid dangers and acquire food and liquid in dire situations.

I like this a lot.

Right now sandstorms = "Oh man, now I'm stuck inside.   Guess I'll try to get laid or logoff."

I wish that Sandstorms = "OH HOLY CRAP!"  But only last for 10 minutes or so.

[Hikertrash]

I just thought I'd throw in my two sid.

I think the concern about playability and play time is a weak argument. Concerns over shops times was sloughed off as being "realisitic." I, for one, have wasted a lot of play time waiting for a particular store to open.

But with regard to storms, the notion that long, massive, deadly storms would hurt playability ... "realism" seems to not be a concern. I see a horrible contradiction.  You know what, if you're gonna walk out the gates of a city, it ought to be incredibly dangerous and unpredictable. That's real.

As for playability, I think being forced to sit in one place for a while, a couple of IC days, is a good thing for the RP on ARM ... people get couped up, tempers can run high. I can envisage a sitatuation in which someone is running from Templar X ... but oh no, a massive storm ... that someone now has to keep a low profile while couped up in the city, try to avoid Templar X or those who would report him to the Templarate. Great plots can be generated by periodic closing of commerce due to weather, etc. Independent hunters' food source might be cut off if the weather was bad enough ... gotta rp scraping up some food or sid somehow. Great stuff!

There's a lot of travelling going on as if the roads were interstates - quick, easy and convenient. Over the course of my past couple of characters, I've seen the same PC's at both ends of the Known World. I think that's a shame ... Travel should be harder, riskier, and require more groups (thus more RP).

This playability issue seems a whine considering the inconsistency with which I seen it applied.

[SailorMars]

So yes to blinding sandstorms, but restrict them to half an hour or so of real time, so that people don't get trapped in untennable positions.

I'll just weigh in with a yay to this idea. Harsh weather RP good, in short doses. Some of these suckers lately have been lasting a month in game. Heh, I think after a month-long harsh sandstorm we'd have to be digging Allanak out with shovels.

[Anonymous]

I think the concern about playability and play time is a weak argument. Concerns over shops times was sloughed off as being "realisitic." I, for one, have wasted a lot of play time waiting for a particular store to open.

<SNIP>

This playability issue seems a whine considering the inconsistency with which I seen it applied.

You are comparing 20 minutes of idling or chatting in a tavern to RL day(s) spent stuck inside   of a city.  It's not such a bad thing when/if it afflicts Tuluk or Allanak.  It's a bad thing when you are the only PC playing in a remote location, IMHO.

Shortening sandstorm duration would bring them in line with the same amount of time someone might spend waiting for a given shop to open.

But with regard to storms, the notion that long, massive, deadly storms would hurt playability ... "realism" seems to not be a concern. I see a horrible contradiction.  You know what, if you're gonna walk out the gates of a city, it ought to be incredibly dangerous and unpredictable. That's real.

See, that's what people are asking for.  An element of danger, surprise and unpredictability to be added to sandstorms.  Right now they are more of 'crap, now my outdoors PC can't go outside, I'll have to sit in a tavern now.' event.

As for playability, I think being forced to sit in one place for a while, a couple of IC days, is a good thing for the RP on ARM ... people get couped up, tempers can run high. I can envisage a sitatuation in which someone is running from Templar X ... but oh no, a massive storm ... that someone now has to keep a low profile while couped up in the city, try to avoid Templar X or those who would report him to the Templarate. Great plots can be generated by periodic closing of commerce due to weather, etc. Independent hunters' food source might be cut off if the weather was bad enough ... gotta rp scraping up some food or sid somehow. Great stuff!

Yeah, if there is more than 2 other PCs in your location.

[Dan]

weather
It is a cool day.
The air is as silent as the sand.
Jihae hangs low in the sky.

think Good, can get this caravan there without any trouble.

look east
<near>
nothing
<far>
The edge of a sandstorm heading to the west.
<very far>
All you see is darkness.

think Feck... Sandstorm!

shout (waving his arms around before quickly packing his things to ~kank) Sandstorm, we ride -now-! We can get to shelter before it hits!

A wall of sand washes through the area as a sandstorm surrounds you!

A faint shape shouts, in sirihish, "Too late, get down and take cover, we have to wait it out here!"

-----------------------------


Something like this would be pretty cool in my opinion. Make sandstorms twenty-thirty rooms long and wide, have them come and go just like that.

[Hikertrash]

I like it a lot ...

Yet what I don't get is the impulse to have storms be more harsh, perhaps more deadly ... yet don't let it inconvenience my character who might have to stay in one location for too long.

Seriously, if your character is in a location with very few other PC's and your stuck in a storm, roll with it, solo rp. If you're in that remote a location you're probably used to it. Not wanting to solo RP is another matter and the code shouldn't address that want.

I'm for realism ... for me that means harsher storms ... it also means longer storms in some cases. A storm that lasts 2 IC days, in my opinion, doesn't destroy gameplay ... it will inconvenience your character ... and it should. Tavern-sitting is the perfect and real response to lousy weather ...
I've done it a bunch this winter with all the nor-easters we've been having.

Seems real to me.

[Tamarin]

Geophysically, the harsher a storm is, the less time it will last, because it is one way for a planet to release its energy.  So ridiculously crazy storms should not be able to last for weeks and weeks.

[Agent_137]

Travel between cities should be dangerous, not impossible. You should have a high chance of dying without appropriate skill and preparation.

Spin the sandstorms, make them hurt you, doesn't matter. Just don't make them last a long time.

I actually prefer the idea of killer sandstorms better, but what i really want is just the bolded goal.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Dan, that is a marvelous idea of implementing it. I really liked that.

I think the general concensus is that sandstorms would be great, implemented in a more realistic manner and containing varying degrees of actual danger, not solely because the beasties can creep up on you from a mile away because you can't see.

I also agree to some extent with the subclasses being able to do this same thing. The nomadic subclass is my favorite, and perhaps the hunter one.

[EvilRoeSlade]

We don't need more/longer sandstorms.

What we need is for them to be very short and less frequent, so as to allow more freedom of play, but made MUCH more of a threat when they do come along. The idea of needing a guide across the wasteland should not depend on them being able to walk through a storm without walking in a random direction, but rather on them being able to avoid dangers and acquire food and liquid in dire situations.

Oh yeah, baby.

And by ranger, I mean your average dune walker or tribal, not the class. Those of you touting your "ranger required" stuff need to remember that 'ranger' is a skill set, not everyone who is a dune walker is going to have the ranger skill set and not everyone with the ranger skill set is a dune walker. I will throw in my support to give the currently ranger-only trait of navigation to a few sub-guilds, if only to blur the lines between classes and offer more character customization.

Hold on a moment!

This is not going to happen by making sandstorms more inconvenient, it is just going to reduce them to glorified crossing guards, leading people from storm entrance to storm exit, where upon they will revert to their former role as second class fighters.

Damn woman.  Sounds mighty like a ranger ta me.

You want to offer this ability to subguilds?  That just happens to be the worst thing you could do, both to the ranger class, and to the level of threat a sandstorm would pose.  Blurring the lines between classes and offering more character customization sounds great on paper, but its time to look at the reality.  This is a class-based game, and it will probably never manage to be anything else, due to the massive reliance of the code on subguilds.  There is nothing wrong with making certain classes the ideal choice for certain roles.

Personally, I think the subguild system is very unstable.  There have been times when everybody in Allanak had the listen skill.  Because of subguilds, the listen skill means nothing.  An employer doesn't have to search for somebody with the listen skill, she'd have a hard time recruiting somebody who didn't possess it.  It's become commonplace to the degree that failing to possess it is the abnormality.  You're a warrior or a magicker?  No problem, partner.  Just pick a subguild with the listen skill!

A skill that offered protection against sandstorms (once they're made an actual threat, that is) would be just as powerful as listen, though it would be used in a different playing field.  Number of warriors in the Byn that would end up taking the nomad subclass?  10.  Number of actual nomads in the Byn?  0.  Your chance of being anything but a second-class warrior with your ranger?  Less than 0.

I don't think the classes need to be balanced, because if you're looking for balance you really can't justify merchants and magickers.  But what I do think is that every class needs absolute superiority in its chosen field.  A warrior's field is fighting, and a ranger's field is the wastes.  As it stands, creating harsh sandstorms and giving rangers the only means to deal with them would be a step towards that goal.  Giving a subguild the same ability would incidently, shoot the proposition in the foot.

I'll further submit that rangers need more superiority in the wastes.  As it stands, somebody who wants to create a character who spends a lot of time in the wastes could just as easily play a warrior as a ranger.  A ranger's poor combat ability hurts her more than a warrior's reduced ability to find food/water hurts her.  Brutal Sandstorms could be a decisive factor in that.

Sandstorms wouldn't be any more of a threat than they are now if everybody had the ability to be resistant to them.  Subguilds were intended to offer people background skills that they wouldn't otherwise have, but they're generally used to min-max characters.

[EvilRoeSlade]

This isn't a test.  Only a double post.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Hmmm...after reading that, I change my stance on the subclasses. Only rangers can have the ability to weather the storm. Thank you, EvilRoeSlade.

[Agent_137]

Hmmm...after reading that, I change my stance on the subclasses. Only rangers can have the ability to weather the storm. Thank you, EvilRoeSlade.

I would like to take this oppourtunity to agree.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Thank you, EvilRoeSlade.

Welcome.

[Twilight]

I think sandstorms are fine as is.  But for those who would like a change, would you also like to make them, hmmm, for a lack of a better word, organic.

As it stands now, sandstorm activity is set on a zone by zone basis.  That is, if you have blinding sands, it affects the entire zone.  Would you rather having something like a moving sandstorm?  So, like a sandstorm starts in room X (the key room), the chance of that happened determined by the force of the winds.  Over a series of RL minutes, it spreads to adjacent rooms until it reaches a certain size, probably based on wind force and chance.  The size is determine by Y rooms from room X.  So you could have a storm that affects all rooms 5 rooms deep, or 10 rooms deep, etc.  All the rooms it spreads to have pointers back to the original room.  Actually, I probably wouldn't even do it with rooms, if it was me I would be doing it with not_there objects.  But anyways.

After max_size has been reached for this particular sandstorm, the key room moves in the direction the wind is blowing.  The storm stays Y rooms deep, so effectively the whole storm is moving.  As time progresses, the Y room deep factor degrades (or upgrades) depending on the severity of the winds.

So, rather than having zone wide weather, you have real moving sandstorms.  Or perhaps you can have both?  Just the moving ones would be the really, really harsh kind you don't want to get stuck in at all.  And you could be able to see the sandstorm on the horizon, etc.

[spawnloser]

I'd say yes to your idea, Twilight, except have the storm builds as it moves.  That would be more realistic...and I would be so down with it.

[Whira's pissed]

There is a sandstorm right now, and I gotta say, it sucks.  It has lasted a whole IC day, and I can't do shit cuz I can't see shit.  Don't bring back the sandstorms.

[Sacac's ghost]

I will say this.
Don't make the sandstorms longer, make them harsher.
The "Stinging sands whirl around you" make that hurt a little bit.
Terrible sand swirling? Make it hurt more.

[Summer]

I think more dangerous sandstorms that actually had a chance of killing your character (if they didn't have water, or were already weakened) are a great idea.

So, what ideas are there to make sandstorms more dangerous?
- Have severe sandstorms do stun/hp damage
- Make storms increase the rate at which you become dehydrated (they do this already I think)
- Have severe storms turn you around occasionaly

Other ideas?

Also, how do we make it so that having a ranger along would help a party? I can see that it would be easy to lessen the effects of the storms on rangers individually, but how would we make it beneficial to a group to have a ranger along? At the present time, I don't think even rangers can scavenge for food/water when they can't see the ground which may be the case in a sandstorm? So they aren't much of a help there. Any ideas?

[EvilRoeSlade]

I've got some suggestions.

Make them scare mounts.  If you're not a skilled rider, the mount will buck you off and run away.  However, if you have a lot of skill (ranger caliber) then you have a chance to remain mounted and regain control of the beast.

Make them destroy tents.

Make them occasionally bury people in sand and transport them to a room where they die instantly.

Give rangers the skill/ability to predict them, perhaps as a function of the weather command.

[sacac]

I like those, But you know what?
Except I don't think they should drain stun or that insta-death thing..
Because if it doesn't work right, then the sands will kill everything that walks onto it.

[Larrath]

Instant-death is a bit much, but standing in the middle of the desert during a sandstorm is a very painful experience...a grain of sand flying at these speeds is no joke.  I can really see people getting injured by the sands or hiding behind wagons or even lying under a tent (though it may get covered in sand) just to escape.  Instant-death is too much, especially since you can't check weather in nearby rooms.

Getting lost, falling over, having your silks torn to shreds, being injured wherever there's no chitin, leather or sandcloth...I can see all of these.

But if a sandstorm is powerful enough to instantly kill a man, well, it would probably also toss his body a long distance away.  (if he's in a djellabah or greatcloak, at least).

And that's it, I think.

[John]

Summer didn't say instant death so I like his idea (i'm apposed to instant death).

So, what ideas are there to make sandstorms more dangerous?
- Have severe sandstorms do stun/hp damage

I like that idea, but I think "hide"ing should lessen the damage somewhat. Also, don't make this so unless.....
* You can see a sandstorm coming in the distance
* and/or there is a build up to the sandstorm, not just instantaneous.

[Summer]

Having hide lessen the damage would be a good way of handling it, however how does that help the group the ranger is leading? Whatever mechanism that is thought up, we want to try and make the ranger more valuable to a group. Even if it were something like:

> weather
blah blah blah
There is a small chance of a storm hitting at the moment
>pem eyes narrow slightly as she casts an appraising eye over the horizon.
ranger says "Nah, we should be right if we leave now.

later....

>weather
blah blah blah
A large storm is almost certainly going to hit soon
> pem As a gust of wind tugs at ~cloak, @ brow furrows in concern.
ranger says "I think we'd better turn back, mother fecker of a storm gunna hit soon."

[John]

however how does that help the group the ranger is leading?

Doesn't. So it's the difference between having a guide who knows the land and can get you out of trouble to having a guide who knows the land and can get himself out of trouble